0:00

Susie, welcome to the podcast. What do you

0:02

think is the number one mistake that people

0:04

make when trying to identify and pursue their

0:06

dream career? Once you see all the data

0:08

and you know your values, the decision makes

0:11

itself. What if we're deciding whether or not

0:13

we want to start our own business? So

0:15

first of all are we interested in entrepreneurial

0:17

life and then second of all is the

0:20

business idea worth pursuing? Your personality can decide

0:22

whether or not you're going to the right

0:24

career or not. What jobs do you think

0:26

are specifically going to be needed if AI

0:28

is doing all these jobs within the world

0:31

of AI? People between 20 and 40 saw

0:33

their parents work very very very hard and

0:35

not going to pay off for it. This

0:37

feels like a good opportunity for you to

0:40

share your very famous. decision-making technique. Hello friends

0:42

and welcome back to the Liz Moody podcast.

0:44

If you want a career that you love,

0:46

if you want to be excited to

0:48

go to work every day, if you

0:50

want to be paid what you are

0:52

worth, I have got an amazing episode

0:54

for you. Or even if you just

0:57

want a career that feels safe, that's

0:59

AI-proof, we are going to get into

1:01

that too. Susie Welch is a mega-success

1:03

New York Times best-selling writer, entrepreneur, and

1:05

professor of one of the most popular

1:07

courses at NYU. She actually wrote a

1:09

book which I got to sneak peek

1:11

before it's official. anybody to learn what

1:13

she teaches in this course. It's called

1:15

Becoming You, the proven method for crafting

1:17

your authentic life and career. And we

1:19

are going to dive deep into how

1:21

to figure out what the best career

1:24

is for you and how to get

1:26

that job if you're not already in

1:28

it. Susie actually had me on her

1:30

podcast, which is also called Becoming You,

1:32

and we dive into all of my

1:34

values, and it's a really different type

1:36

of interview than I have ever done

1:38

before. It's deeply personal. If you are

1:40

interested in hearing her interview me, you

1:43

can go check out that episode. It's

1:45

going to come out next week. There is a

1:47

lot of information in this episode. So if

1:49

you want some key takeaways when you're

1:51

done listening, head over to Lizmootie.subsack.com. You

1:53

can sign up for our brand new

1:55

newsletter, which has action steps for each

1:57

episode, as well as meal plans, workout

2:00

plans. bonus interviews, so much amazing content.

2:02

Susie, welcome to the podcast. I'm so

2:04

happy to be here. I have so

2:06

much to get into with you today,

2:08

but let's just start off with, what

2:10

do you think of the sentiment? I

2:12

don't dream of labor, so I do

2:14

not have a dream job. It's perfectly

2:16

fine. Wanting a job, wanting to have

2:19

work is a value. Okay? So some

2:21

people really have high, what I call

2:23

work-centrism, a desire-to-work, pleasure-and-and-and-interest-interest-and-and-and-and-and-and-and- don't and the

2:25

world is capable of holding us all

2:27

as long as we're not yelling at

2:29

each other. What do you think about

2:31

the idea that we have to do

2:33

something for eight hours a day like

2:35

the vast vast majority of us to

2:37

make money? How should we approach how

2:40

much we like that thing? Well I

2:42

mean I think that you don't have

2:44

to work eight hours a day if

2:46

you also don't care about money. I

2:48

mean, there are people who don't like

2:50

work and they've accommodated that entirely by

2:52

having incredibly simple lives or living in

2:54

communities where it's very inexpensive and they

2:56

get by on much less labor or

2:59

they have some kind of passive income

3:01

or whatever. If you have to live

3:03

in a place where you have to

3:05

work eight hours a day and you

3:07

hate it, because eight hours a lot

3:09

of hours, but I don't believe that

3:11

everybody has to have a dream job,

3:13

only people who... Love work should have a

3:16

dream job and everybody else should figure out

3:18

what matches their values and how they want

3:20

to live their life Immediately we're getting into

3:22

something you say in your book You're like

3:24

this is obvious, but I do think we

3:26

forget it a lot Which is that our

3:28

values are going to require some sacrifice like

3:31

you cannot value every single thing at the

3:33

top So you can't say I value living

3:35

in San Francisco and I value not working

3:37

as much as somebody else might want to

3:39

work and I value having these fancifications, whatever,

3:41

like something has to give. There are trade-offs

3:43

with every value. In fact, one of the

3:46

things that happens to me all the time

3:48

with my students at NYU is they'll come

3:50

up to me after they've gotten the results

3:52

of their values bridge where we test what

3:54

their values are and rank order them and

3:56

they'll say, Professor Welch, can you help me

3:59

out with this? My number one value is...

4:01

Affluence, which is money, but work centrism, which

4:03

is how much they want to work, is

4:05

like, that's sort of at number 13 or

4:07

14. Is that a problem? And I say,

4:09

unless you've got inherited wealth, yes it is.

4:11

Okay, so if we really want to have

4:14

huge affluence, but we don't want to work,

4:16

that's just a tension that you can't get

4:18

around. All right, and there's other values that

4:20

are in conflict, and a lot of times,

4:22

in our lives, we have pain. and we

4:24

feel conflict when our values are not aligned.

4:27

And so the trick is to understand what

4:29

your values are and which ones are in

4:31

conflict and work those conflicts out. How would

4:33

you suggest that somebody navigate, let's say that

4:35

conflict? I don't want to work a lot

4:37

and I want to live a really nice

4:39

life because I think that's more and more

4:42

common. conflict because what happened is when I

4:44

was coming up and along okay and you

4:46

worked your butt off and you really gave

4:48

work your all you could be pretty guaranteed

4:50

that there'd be a payoff okay but what's

4:52

going on right now is that you can

4:55

work really really hard and the whole economy

4:57

can fall out underneath you your job can

4:59

go away your industry can go away and

5:01

a lot of people between 20 and 40

5:03

saw their parents work very, very, very hard

5:05

and not get a payoff for it. And

5:07

now what they're doing is they're looking at

5:10

the economy as it is, and they're saying,

5:12

yeah, I could work and work and everything

5:14

I do could become a sort of a

5:16

moot point because of AI tomorrow. And so

5:18

they don't get the connection between hard work

5:20

and affluence. It's not as guaranteed as it

5:23

used to be. That having been said, it's

5:25

very, very hard still to this day to

5:27

become affluent without work. So you're sort of

5:29

in a bind. So you're sort of in

5:31

a bind. If you want to have a

5:33

huge amount of money, even though it may

5:35

not work out for you, you're still going

5:38

to have to work for it. And all

5:40

these people who look like they have spectacular

5:42

lives and they did it sitting around just

5:44

sort of taking pictures of themselves, they worked

5:46

their butts off. They worked incredibly hard. You

5:48

just don't see it. Unless there's inherited money

5:50

involved. But that's so rare. Most people work

5:53

incredibly hard to get spectacular lives. We just

5:55

did your podcast and I have a unemonic

5:57

value where I want to have a lot

5:59

of pleasure, enjoy my life, and then I

6:01

have anxiety and I'm afraid of flying and

6:03

things like that. And so I feel like

6:06

those often run up against each other where

6:08

I'm like, I want to hop off and

6:10

take this vacation with my girlfriends, but I'm

6:12

afraid I'm going to die getting there. of

6:14

wanting to have pleasure and fun, but I

6:16

also have how that would show up as

6:18

a value of low scope, which is that

6:21

I want to keep my life scoped enough

6:23

that I can keep it under control. And

6:25

those tend to go into conflict with each

6:27

other. And look, our whole lives are waking

6:29

up every day and having that conversation about

6:31

which part of your values you're going to

6:34

make the strongest accommodation with. But you could

6:36

stop beating yourself up about it. It's life.

6:38

Our life is understanding our values and working

6:40

our values. sort of from 20 to 45.

6:42

That's when you're in the peak of the

6:44

season where all your values are clashing, like

6:46

work is clashing with family and fun is

6:49

clashing with money. We do two things. One,

6:51

we blame ourselves and then others we blame

6:53

everybody else. And the facts are, can we

6:55

just stop doing the blame game on everybody?

6:57

This is the nature of modern life. And

6:59

what we need more of is a language

7:02

around so we can give each other grace

7:04

and we can work through it and figure

7:06

out, okay, I've got these two conflicting values.

7:08

How do I want to balance it? Do

7:10

I want to give in to one or

7:12

do I want to manage that paradox every

7:14

single day of my life? I love that

7:17

you say that because the times I am

7:19

able to get on a plane, which is

7:21

quite frequently in my life, it's because I

7:23

am consciously in my life. It's because I

7:25

am consciously saying to myself, I want to

7:27

choose a bigger life in this moment. I

7:30

don't want my eulogy to say she kept

7:32

her life small because of fear. I want

7:34

my eulogy to say she livede to say

7:36

she lived to say she lived to say

7:38

she lived, she lived, she lived, she lived,

7:40

she lived, she lived, she lived, she lived,

7:42

she lived, she lived, she lived, she lived,

7:45

she lived, she lived, she lived, she lived,

7:47

she lived, she lived, she lived, she lived,

7:49

she lived, she lived, she lived, she lived,

7:51

she lived, she lived, she lived, she lived,

7:53

she lived, she lived, she lived, she lived,

7:55

and I'm choosing this one. I'm choosing the

7:57

one that says big scope, big eutimonia, big

8:00

fun, and I'm going... to suppress that value

8:02

that's telling me not to do it and

8:04

that you've made the choice. You've slayed that

8:06

dragon. We'll get into how we can use

8:08

our values to ascertain what our dream

8:10

jobs are and to go after them

8:13

if we do indeed have dream jobs.

8:15

But can you maybe give us a

8:17

few ways we can identify what some

8:19

of our values are? It's very hard

8:21

to actually self-identify your values, Liz. It

8:23

really is because we have a voice in

8:26

our head that's telling us what we should value

8:28

and then... We hear our parents' voices in our

8:30

heads, our spouses' voices. I call these the four

8:32

horsemen of values destruction. I should want this. I

8:34

should want that. And so we have a lot

8:37

of trouble self-identifying. So I have all these little

8:39

tricky tests. So here's one. I call it the

8:41

whose life do you want any way activity. And

8:43

what you do is you... Don't edit yourself, get

8:46

a piece of paper and write down four or

8:48

five or six people whose lives you would have

8:50

if you had to switch lives. Okay, you can

8:52

start by saying, I don't want to switch my

8:54

life with anybody. Okay, fine. I'm the queen of

8:56

the world. You've got to switch. You've got to do

8:59

this. I do this with my students. Write down five

9:01

or six people whose lives, okay, I have to have

9:03

somebody else's life, I'll take that life. And write them

9:05

down and then in the column next to it.

9:07

Write down what it is that made you list

9:09

them. Don't edit yourself. It's their money, it's their

9:11

kids, it's their legs. I wrote down how to

9:13

cope with you, select just spectacular arms, I wrote

9:15

it down about each person, the four, five, six

9:18

things that made you pick that person. And

9:20

then in the column next to that,

9:22

write down if you had to have

9:24

their life, even with those good things,

9:26

what... Would you throw out the window?

9:28

Okay, I don't like their spouse. They

9:30

had a divorce. If they're strange from

9:33

their kids, so forth and so on.

9:35

Like, one of the people on my

9:37

list is Martha Stewart, who I think

9:39

is spectacular because she's reinvented herself and

9:41

she sets the cultural conversation. She sets

9:43

the cultural conversation. She is the cultural

9:45

conversation. She sets the cultural conversation. She

9:48

is well-known by people. She's re-invented herself

9:50

and she sets the cultural

9:52

conversation. She sets the cultural

9:54

conversation. after you have the list of these

9:56

six four or five six people and you

9:58

look at all the things that you want about it

10:00

and then you about their lives and then

10:03

be different things for each person and then

10:05

all the things you would leave out then

10:07

you put down your pen and really look

10:09

at it with a gimlet eye and think

10:12

what are the patterns I'm seeing are they

10:14

all entrepreneurs are they all filthy rich did

10:16

they all have happy marriages look at the

10:18

patterns in each column when I look at

10:21

mine it's like career career career career career

10:23

big career conversation starter reinventer self-made And then

10:25

when you look over in the column, that's

10:28

about what I didn't want, it's my friends

10:30

who I put down who gave up their

10:32

careers. And you get this very strong sense.

10:34

Okay, my values are sort of, I have

10:37

the big three around work centrism, achievement, and

10:39

affluence. This is a archetype of people who

10:41

want to have a lot of success. And

10:43

it doesn't surprise me, but this is a

10:46

sneaky way to get what your values. It's

10:48

not asking you to self-report. One of the

10:50

questions is, what do you want people to

10:53

say about you when you're not in the

10:55

room? And that question, you know, you can

10:57

answer it any way you want. You can

10:59

say that I'm not crazy like my mother,

11:02

or you can say that she's very beautiful,

11:04

or she's very rich, or I have a

11:06

friend who's like a brilliant genius, she answered,

11:08

that she's hot. Okay, and this will start

11:11

to stir up the answer to what some

11:13

of your values are, beholders, which is how

11:15

we look, When I walk out of a

11:17

room, I want people to say, she really

11:20

understood me. Typically, that's suggesting that you have

11:22

the value of voice of authenticity that people

11:24

felt they could confide in you. So that's

11:27

one of the questions. What would you want

11:29

people to say about you when you're not

11:31

in the room? Another question is, what did

11:33

you love about your upbringing and what did

11:36

you hate? And this question allows you to

11:38

put down lifestyle values. Like I loved how

11:40

much love there was in the house, but

11:42

I was bored all the time. And this

11:45

would begin to suggest values around belonging, but

11:47

also wanting to have a scope in your

11:49

life, a big life. I don't want boredom

11:51

in my life. And so this question also

11:54

begins to bubble up values. I struggled with

11:56

that one until, because I didn't have a

11:58

particular... happy childhood until I realized how much

12:01

information was in the things that I hated

12:03

and it really did point to many in

12:05

many ways the life that I built for

12:07

myself. Right you hit the nail on the

12:10

head okay because with that question what you

12:12

loved is as important as what you hated

12:14

in terms of revealing values. And then the

12:16

third question is, what would make you

12:18

cry at your 85th birthday? This is

12:21

about the legacy. I mean, I've heard

12:23

this answer thousands of times because I've

12:25

been using this question in my work

12:27

since 2009, and people can answer everything

12:29

from that I never got sober, which

12:31

would speak to how much they value

12:33

self-determination and the struggle to achieve it,

12:35

or you could say something like that

12:37

I wrecked the company, which would speak

12:39

to somebody who was trying to run

12:41

the family company, to achievement. For me,

12:43

I have like a very strong value

12:45

about about protecting animals and its big value

12:48

of mine is ending animal cruelty and for

12:50

me it's like if we did not move

12:52

the needle on the treatment of animals in

12:54

the farm system this would make me cry

12:56

because I've been working at it since I

12:58

was 20 years old and it talks to

13:01

my value of radius which is systemic change.

13:03

And so I think these three questions are

13:05

ways to surface our values. What if you

13:07

begin to surface your values and the things

13:09

that you value don't feel attainable in your

13:11

life? They don't feel accessible to you. Maybe

13:13

one of your values is family and you

13:16

have been single for years and you're maybe

13:18

not close with your family of origin. What

13:20

if one of your values is impact and

13:22

you don't feel like you have reached beyond

13:24

your small sphere? Yeah, I mean this happens

13:27

all the time. And you know what, when

13:29

we... Look at our values, and then

13:31

we see that they currently feel

13:33

unattainable, and to use the scientific

13:35

lingo, we're not expressing them. We

13:37

hold them, but we're not expressing

13:39

them. My answer to that is,

13:41

that is why we're unhappy if we

13:43

are. Okay, that is the inner sadness we

13:46

feel. That is the source of angst,

13:48

of inner grief. And we can

13:50

suppress those feelings of inner grief.

13:52

We can lie about them to

13:54

ourselves. We can make accommodation with them,

13:56

or we can change our life to go

13:58

achieve achieve them. They're always achievable.

14:00

When you say change your life, let's

14:02

say my value is family. I'm 38,

14:04

39 years old and I don't have

14:07

a partner. What do I do? Yeah.

14:09

I am often with people either in

14:11

my private practice or at school where

14:13

they are not achievable. So for instance,

14:15

I had a friend who went through

14:17

this whole process and he had very

14:19

serious mental health issues which required him

14:21

to have like actually a personal aid

14:23

and he had managed depression and was

14:26

very difficult for them to control it.

14:28

And when he answered that question, what

14:30

would make you cry on your 85th

14:32

birthday? His answer was knowledge that his

14:34

obituary would not appear on the front

14:36

page of the New York Times. Okay,

14:38

that's how much he wanted fame. And

14:40

he came from a famous family. Okay,

14:42

so he saw what he wanted was

14:45

this kind of achievement and radius and

14:47

fame. He could barely get through a

14:49

day. And so I remember saying to

14:51

him, you know, this is not going

14:53

to happen for you. And he said,

14:55

you can't talk me out of my

14:57

values. And I said, no, I can't,

14:59

but it's important to be realistic about

15:02

them. And we let it go. But

15:04

I would say, his grief around it

15:06

was what he needed to work on.

15:08

He's grief around it. Now, by the

15:10

same token, I had a student who

15:12

was 40, and Family Centrism came out

15:14

as her number one value. She was

15:16

single, no boyfriend. And she said, I

15:18

look at this, and I feel like

15:21

crying because I feel like crying because

15:23

I know this is true. put it

15:25

on the back burner to achieve all

15:27

my career goals, I achieved them, but

15:29

I don't have this number one thing

15:31

that I want. What should I do?

15:33

When I see it in black and

15:35

white, when I see it in the

15:37

test, it's agonizing to me. And when

15:40

she did her whose life chart that

15:42

we just talked about, she had all

15:44

these women with children. And she was

15:46

like, this is just a whole. And

15:48

most days I just suppress it and

15:50

I just suppress it and I eat

15:52

it and I eat it. so that

15:54

you could have children, or if it

15:56

doesn't work, then to actually think about

15:59

adopting children. And she said, I have

16:01

thought about it. And I said, why

16:03

aren't you doing it? And she said,

16:05

I need permission. And I said, OK,

16:07

I'll give you permission. And she goes

16:09

to sabbatical. She's on it right. And

16:11

she's looking for her life partner. She's

16:13

doing absolutely everything. She actually moved to

16:16

a city in Latin America. She was

16:18

Latin American, moved to a city where

16:20

she thought there was the most available

16:22

men, and she got a matchmaker, and

16:24

she's going out, and she's putting her

16:26

life out there, and she's making her,

16:28

and she's putting her life out there.

16:30

And she has made her, because it's

16:32

her number one value, she's her number

16:35

one value, then we might think that

16:37

we have to do something kind of

16:39

radical. Because what was the option for

16:41

this student? She was going to be

16:43

50 and that unrealized value was going

16:45

to be painful. Now, you can talk

16:47

yourself out of it and you can

16:49

make peace with it. Those are other

16:51

options or you can go for it.

16:54

I have a girlfriend who did that.

16:56

She left New York City to live

16:58

somewhere where she thought she could find

17:00

a life partner because her life partner

17:02

and family was so important to it

17:04

and she did it. Yeah, she's married

17:06

and has family and all that. But

17:08

you know you can't wish it. You

17:10

can't manifest it. You can't manifest it.

17:13

You got to go work for it,

17:15

just like everything else in life. You

17:17

can't imagine it into being. She looked

17:19

what she did. She went for it.

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for 25% off. Do you have

21:57

any advice for figuring out

21:59

what... values we should compromise on and

22:01

what values we should go for if we feel

22:03

like we have a lot of high values? Everybody

22:06

thinks all their values are the same high value

22:08

and the facts are this is why we rank

22:10

order them and try to figure out what their

22:12

relative importance is. I think that some values you

22:14

have no choice but to figure out the solution

22:17

to. So for instance you can have high work

22:19

centrism and achievement really want to work, love work

22:21

and love the achievement or affluence work gives you.

22:23

And you can love your family. I had that.

22:25

I have four children. And a very unfortunate fact

22:27

is that because of biology, the time that you

22:30

need to be fully available to work and fully

22:32

putting your foot on the pedal to get what

22:34

you need at work is from ages 21 to

22:36

45. And uh-oh spaghettios, that's exactly the same time

22:38

that your children need you to be fully available

22:41

to them. It stinks, okay? It's bullshit. It is

22:43

what it is, but that's the way it happened.

22:45

And, you know, work is saying, we need you,

22:47

we need to see you're available, we need to

22:49

see you're committed, and your kids are saying, hey,

22:52

I need to see you're available, I need to

22:54

see you're committed, and I need to see you're

22:56

available, and I need to see you're committed. And

22:58

I need to see you're available, and I need

23:00

to see you're committed. In I need to see

23:03

you're committed, I need to see you're committed, in

23:05

the exact, I need to see you're committed, in

23:07

the exact, I need to see, I need to

23:09

see, I need to see, you're committed, I need

23:11

to see, I need to see, you're committed, I

23:13

need to see, you're committed, I need to see,

23:16

you're committed, I need to see, you're committed, I

23:18

need to see, I need to, you're committed, I

23:20

need to see, I cried a lot. You can

23:22

do a couple of things. You can say, I

23:24

don't want to fight this battle every day. I

23:27

don't want to suit up like De Nairis and

23:29

slay this dragon every day. I don't want to

23:31

do it. It's too hard. It's killing me. And

23:33

it's exhausting. It's so exhausting to fight that battle

23:35

every day. And you can say, I am going

23:38

to stop working. Many women do that. My sisters

23:40

did that. And I kept on working. And what

23:42

I did was the opposite thing, which is I

23:44

turned to my kids and I said, I really

23:46

love you, but I really love my work. And

23:48

one day you're going to grow up and you're

23:51

going to go away and I'm still going to

23:53

be here. There's no ramp on my career. I'm

23:55

going to stay on my career. And

23:57

what I need, kids, is

23:59

for you to help

24:02

me. And they bought in, they

24:04

understood. And there were many times where I

24:06

deprioritized my kids and I prioritized my work.

24:08

I made that decision because my career was

24:10

that important to me. I was shamed, I

24:12

was criticized, I was excoriated by family members.

24:14

At the time, society, I didn't have

24:16

a lot of role models when I did

24:18

it and I had so much belief in

24:20

my values of work and achievement and success.

24:22

I just did, I went, I forged through

24:25

it and you know, it worked out. I

24:27

mean, I was clear on my values.

24:29

My kids and I are best friends. Did

24:31

I screw up? Yeah. Was I not there

24:33

for enough things? Yup. I make it up

24:35

for, I'm still making up for it. I mean, you

24:37

couldn't be closer to your kids than I am now. I

24:39

mean, I'm in their faces every single minute. I made

24:41

a gamble. I was helped because I was clear and I

24:43

didn't try to relitigate it every day. I made some choices

24:45

and I lived by them. And it's not the choice

24:47

for everybody. You could try to do it 50 -50. That's

24:50

slaying the dragon every day. That's very hard. You can throw

24:52

it all in, go 100 % either way. But

24:54

I kind of did the 60 -40.

24:56

60 towards work, 40 towards the kids. It

24:58

was my accommodation. It was

25:00

imperfect. But eventually, kids grow up and they

25:02

leave. And you get your hands untied from

25:04

behind your back and you can just go,

25:06

go, go. And for me, I had stayed

25:09

on the career track the whole way and

25:11

when they went away to college, I unleashed. There's

25:13

almost like a shaking of all

25:16

of us that you're doing

25:18

a little bit where you're like,

25:20

you can't have it all. You need

25:22

to figure out what matters to you. And

25:24

you say this a few times in

25:26

your book, the Mary Oliver quote, this is

25:28

your one wild and precious life. What

25:30

are you gonna do with it? Because if

25:32

you aren't making these choices, these choices

25:34

are still happening. Well, they'll make themselves. They

25:36

will make themselves. They'll make themselves. You'll

25:38

just not make the decision, not make decision.

25:40

And when we don't make decisions, they

25:42

make themselves and usually in a very ugly

25:44

way. Yeah, okay. This feels like a

25:46

good opportunity for you to share your very

25:48

famous decision -making technique. Can you tell us

25:50

about the 10 -10 -10 technique? Yeah, I'd love

25:52

to talk about. Look, 10 -10 -10 is a

25:54

decision -making technique that I came to because I

25:56

was at rock bottom. I was trying to

25:58

do it all, all. same time. I had

26:01

four little children. This is like 1995. I

26:03

had four little children. My husband was

26:05

one foot out the door. We had been

26:07

high school sweethearts. We were not meant to

26:09

be married. We're actually very good friends today

26:11

and we should have always been friends today

26:14

and we should have always been friends, but we

26:16

went on and got married. We're actually very

26:18

good friends today and we should have always

26:20

been friends, but we went on and got

26:22

clear with myself about my values or how

26:24

I want to live or how I want

26:26

to live. going to give a speech in Hawaii,

26:28

and I brought two of my children with me, and

26:31

it ended in an epic fail with the kids breaking

26:33

out of a hula dancing class where I had warehoused

26:35

them and running up on stage while I was giving

26:37

the speech. And this was, as I said, 1995

26:39

or so, and thank God there was no cell

26:41

phones for somebody to videotape this, and there was

26:43

no Twitter for people to put it out, but

26:45

actually, the other thing about it being 1995, was

26:47

all men, and they didn't think this was

26:49

amusing at all. And they didn't clap and they

26:51

didn't laugh and they just got up and walk

26:53

out of the speech and I was left there

26:56

up there on the stage in my bow shirt

26:58

and my little gray suit with my kids clutching

27:00

in my legs thinking I'm a loser and I

27:02

can't do this I can't I thought I was

27:04

going to be the one woman who did it

27:06

all all at the same time and I came up with

27:08

this idea that I was going to start

27:10

living my life one decision at a time

27:12

I just have to slow this freaking writing on

27:14

the back of the locomotive and

27:16

holding on by my fingernails, I

27:19

was just going to start to

27:21

understand life with a totally different

27:23

construct, which was that everything in

27:25

life was one decision after another,

27:27

and instead of letting the decisions just

27:29

make themselves, I was going to stop

27:31

every time there was a decision. I

27:33

was going to say to myself, literally,

27:35

what are my options and what are

27:38

the consequences of those options, or how

27:40

many options there were? In the foreseeable future, 10

27:42

months, okay? What are the consequences of those options?

27:44

If I was to try to build the life

27:46

I really want, that's the 10-year thing. And then

27:48

you really do a data dump. I mean, you're

27:50

just like dumping data, you're really looking at the

27:52

pros and the cons, you're not sort of picking

27:54

out on one piece of data that you really

27:56

want to listen to, or the last piece of

27:58

data that you heard, because these are all... decision-making

28:00

biases that we give more weight to the

28:03

last piece of data that we got and

28:05

you just put this huge data dump either

28:07

in your head or on a piece of

28:09

paper and then you compare it to your

28:11

values and then the decision it usually just

28:14

rises up like the sun and and announces

28:16

itself it's very rare at that point that

28:18

you're sitting there staring at a saying I

28:20

don't know what to do because once you

28:22

see all the data and you know your

28:25

values that's why you have to know your

28:27

values the decision makes itself. That is why

28:29

with the beauty of knowing your values, then

28:31

you can start deploying 10, 10, 10, every

28:33

single time you've got a hard decision about

28:36

work and family or about fun and anxiety

28:38

and all these different things. You can just

28:40

say, let's just 10, 10, 10. My kids

28:42

say to me all the time, I raised

28:45

my kids using it. Once I started using

28:47

it, my life back together again using it.

28:49

And I started then using it more widely.

28:51

And then when I started writing for, oh,

28:53

the Oprah magazine, I wrote about it. and

28:56

then wrote a book about it and I

28:58

meet people all the time. I was speaking

29:00

at a conference recently, a wellness conference, and

29:02

a woman came up to me and she

29:04

said, I raised my children using 10, 10,

29:07

10, and I said, so did I. That

29:09

was how we learned how to do decisions

29:11

and to slow life down so that you

29:13

could live by your values. And that's 10

29:15

minutes, 10 months, 10 years. That's the, yeah,

29:18

and look, honestly, it could be five minutes,

29:20

seven months, 30 years, whatever, but it's a

29:22

proxy for saying what are the impacts immediately,

29:24

like right now, and that's usually how we

29:27

make our decisions. The foreseeable future, we don't

29:29

usually think about, but we should, and then

29:31

the future I want to create. Yeah, and

29:33

that's where some of the choices that we're

29:35

making right now, yeah, they do favor the

29:38

different. How do we begin to use that

29:40

information to point us into the direction of

29:42

the most satisfying fulfilling career for us? I

29:44

teach a class called Becoming You, an NYU,

29:46

Stern School of Business, and it's called Becoming

29:49

You, crafting the authentic life you need. And

29:51

my students are MBAs. They want to know

29:53

what to do when they graduate. They're at

29:55

business school to pivot. And I use it

29:57

with the undergraduates who are looking at graduating

30:00

and saying, what am I going to do

30:02

with my life. And so we use a

30:04

construct that construct that goes like this that

30:06

goes like this, that your purpose. your area

30:09

of transcendence as we call it, lies at

30:11

the intersection of three spheres, if you will.

30:13

So sort of imagining these three spheres in

30:15

your mind. The first is your values. And

30:17

so we've talked about how you would figure

30:20

out your values. And I drive my students

30:22

to create a list of my students to

30:24

create a list of their values. And I

30:26

drive my students to create a list of

30:28

their values. I don't like my people making

30:31

their values. I don't want people picking their

30:33

values. I've got these 15. You are wired

30:35

cognitively to be better at some things than

30:37

others. And you need to know what you're

30:40

good at. Are you a person who's really

30:42

good at thinking about the future or are

30:44

you a present focuser? Are you an idea

30:46

generator? Are you a person who's better sort

30:48

of midwifing other people's ideas? And there's eight

30:51

big cognitive aptitudes and you can get those

30:53

tested. And then we look at how much

30:55

leadership potential people have with another test. And

30:57

we look at personality type, and we look

30:59

at personality type. I don't want to gloss

31:02

over it, because your personality can decide whether

31:04

or not you're going to the right career

31:06

or not. When people say that they're thinking

31:08

about a career, they're like, the first thing

31:10

that goes into my mind is, is it

31:13

a fit for your personality? Your personality is

31:15

a huge part of what you're good at

31:17

or not. Like, extroverts should be in other

31:19

jobs. And whether or not your person is

31:22

big on belonging, and whether you're a warm

31:24

person, that that lends itself to some jobs,

31:26

and whether you're a loner, that lends itself

31:28

to other jobs. So here's the problem with

31:30

personality, though. People hate what I'm about to

31:33

say. I'm about to say something people hate,

31:35

hate, hate. Your personality is not the words

31:37

you use to describe yourself. I'm kind, I'm

31:39

compassionate, I'm a good listener, I'm loyal. Yeah,

31:41

that's what you say about yourself. And maybe

31:44

you are, but that's the story you tell

31:46

yourself. Your personality is one thing and one

31:48

thing only. Your personality is how the world

31:50

experiences you. Full stop. You can say you're

31:52

kind and the world experiences you as not

31:55

kind. Which one are you? If the world

31:57

is experienced you... as unkind,

31:59

you're only kind in

32:01

your head, okay? And

32:04

you may say that you're

32:06

generous and you tell yourself you're generous,

32:08

right? And if the world has experienced

32:10

you as not generous, which are you? You're

32:12

not generous, okay? You're only generous in your

32:15

mind. So I am a gigantic believer in

32:17

finding out how the world experiences you. How

32:19

do you do that? Well, you can live

32:21

your whole life and eventually the world tells

32:23

you, okay? Eventually the world tells you, but

32:25

a lot of times it doesn't because what

32:27

happens is people who don't like the way

32:29

they're experiencing you, they leave the scene of

32:32

the crime, okay? And

32:34

then you're sort of surrounded by people who

32:36

tolerate you. And even sometimes your close friends

32:38

don't tell you truly how the world is

32:40

experiencing you. So I invented this cheap, cheap,

32:42

cheap, cheap, cheap test, which is a cup

32:44

of coffee. And my students all

32:46

take it. Anybody can take it. It's on

32:48

my website, SusieWolfe.com, and it's called Pi 360.

32:50

It takes two seconds for your friends to

32:52

fill it out and your all that feedback

32:54

is anonymously told to you. And you find

32:57

out how the world experiences you and how

32:59

you deal with people, how good your

33:01

ideas are, and whether or not you're reliable, okay? These

33:03

are the big three things. And you find out,

33:05

and then what we tell you is that your self

33:07

-awareness score, because you rate yourself also on the exact

33:09

same dimensions. This test is very, very short. How

33:11

many friends do you have to send it to? You

33:13

can, you will only give you data back if

33:15

you have more than 14 people report. And I'll tell

33:17

you why, because it has to be fully anonymous.

33:19

Your friends aren't going to tell the truth. And the

33:21

data is not as rich unless it's people. And how

33:24

close do they have to be you? They don't

33:26

have to be that close. I mean, just people whose

33:28

opinions you trust. It's completely anonymous. It will take

33:30

your friends less than five minutes, three minutes to fill

33:32

it out. It's 15 very quick questions. Oh, I'm

33:34

going to do this for sure. And you've got to

33:36

do it, okay? Because I have done it now

33:38

a lot of times. And then you get self -awareness

33:40

score. We actually tell you, okay, your friends said this.

33:42

Look at here. This is what they say about

33:44

you about people. This is what they say about

33:47

you with ideas. And this is what they say about you with

33:49

how trustworthy and reliable you are. These are the things people

33:51

care about. And you thought

33:53

you were this, this, and this.

33:55

And sometimes people get the

33:57

results back and they say, oh

33:59

my God, I am so

34:01

much better than I thought. I

34:03

thought I was... kind of crappy with people,

34:05

but the world thinks I'm wonderful. I thought my ideas were

34:07

really great and people don't think so. And I thought I

34:09

could be trusted and actually I can't. But so sometimes people

34:12

are positively surprised on some of

34:14

the factors, not others. But the beauty

34:16

of it, it's quick and it's quick

34:18

and you actually end up finding out

34:21

how the world experiences you and then,

34:23

of course, if people want help on

34:25

how to fix that, you're happy to

34:27

give it, you're happy to give it. When

34:29

you think I want to be, I'm a people

34:31

person, I want to go into HR, I

34:33

want to be customer facing, and then you

34:35

can't seem to get success in that world.

34:37

And the reason is you're not as good

34:40

with people as you thought you were. Okay,

34:42

that personality trait that you think you have,

34:44

or vice versa, you may think you're not

34:46

so good with people with people, you know

34:49

what? Go into a people facing job. Okay,

34:51

to finish the construct. First you

34:53

do values, then you do

34:55

aptitudesutes, including personality. And then

34:57

you look at what you're interested in,

35:00

what turn, what, I'm not going to

35:02

use turns your crank because it's such

35:04

an old-fashioned term, but what calls you

35:06

intellectually or emotionally? Is it health care? Is

35:09

it children? Is it entertainment? And then you

35:11

sort of think, well, in that same

35:13

area of analysis, is it a small

35:15

company or a large company? Is it

35:17

a for-profit company or a non-for-profit company?

35:19

Is it that you don't even care

35:22

what kind of company it kind of

35:24

company it is? And after you have all

35:26

that data from those three spheres,

35:28

values, aptitudes, and interests, usually, very

35:31

naturally, the work that's at the

35:33

intersection of that reveals itself to you. It

35:35

will pop. I've seen it happen so many

35:37

times I can't even count where people go,

35:39

oh my God, this suggests I'm completely in

35:42

the wrong field and I need to go

35:44

do something like this. Or sometimes people

35:46

say, wow, I'm already on the path

35:48

to exactly what I want to be doing. And

35:50

then, you know, you know, in my class,

35:52

students, find out what their purpose, And then

35:54

they tell the story of their life 40 years going

35:56

forward because they say, okay, it's over there. This is

35:59

how I'm going to get there. usually not in

36:01

your area of purpose yet. You're usually not

36:03

there. And you have to figure out how

36:05

you're going to get there. A huge problem

36:07

that I see a lot of people run

36:10

into is that all of those things, except

36:12

perhaps, and I'm sure this is going to

36:14

be part of your answer, one value points

36:16

to a specific job. but that job does

36:19

not pay the amount of money that they

36:21

would want to live, which would be the

36:23

value that would be missing. What do we

36:26

do in that scenario? Okay, I am now

36:28

going to create, a lot of answers today

36:30

that are going to make people absolutely hate

36:32

me. And this is going to make every

36:35

behavioral economist in the world sort of roll

36:37

their eyes, but I'm going to sum up

36:39

the entire field of behavioral economics in one

36:41

or two sentences. This is a very robust

36:44

academic. And behavioral economics would tell you that

36:46

a lot of times, human beings make a

36:48

decision based on money even when money doesn't

36:50

matter to them. And there's a million reasons

36:53

for it, it's how we're raised, it's how

36:55

we're wired, there's all sorts of cultural reasons

36:57

for it, and there's all sorts of cultural

36:59

reasons and there's social reasons for it. And

37:02

so what ends up happening is people say

37:04

all my values, all my aptages, all my

37:06

interest point me to being somebody in animal

37:08

rescue, but I'll actually matter to you. Because

37:11

you're just answering based on the fact that

37:13

human beings are wired to say how much

37:15

money will I get. And then sometimes what

37:18

you hear people say is like, actually, you

37:20

know, money doesn't really matter all that much

37:22

to me. Actually, these other things matter all

37:24

that much to me. These other things matter

37:27

more. And then you go into animal rescue,

37:29

say, and you find all these people who

37:31

made that decision a few years ago, that

37:33

everything about it mattered, they weren't going to

37:36

get the money, but because all those things

37:38

mattered more. It is. And so I can't

37:40

go do all those things. But then don't

37:42

complain about it, my friend. Don't complain about

37:45

it. You decided on your number one value,

37:47

which was money, and you're not having all

37:49

these other things you care about. Those needs

37:51

are not being met. But you made the

37:54

choice based on that value. Is there a

37:56

way to figure out what the highest paying

37:58

job that hit? all of the, like if

38:00

we're like, I want to be an animal

38:03

rescue, is there a way to figure out

38:05

what's the highest paying version of animal rescue?

38:07

Yes, there definitely are ways to do that.

38:10

I mean, ChatGPT is very good with that.

38:12

Okay. We use it a lot with students

38:14

who say things like, their things will show

38:16

up and we actually are developing a tool

38:19

right now, it's not available, yeah, called the

38:21

Holland Bridge, it's in a beta that will

38:23

answer that exact question. money is your number

38:25

one value because the facts are you can

38:28

make money your God and make it your

38:30

number one value and it doesn't love you

38:32

back you know you give your whole life

38:34

over to it people that you know the

38:37

world is littered with people who did things

38:39

for money and only to find it wasn't

38:41

worth it. I also think that this is

38:43

a situation where perhaps more information can be

38:46

helpful too like actually doing the math, how

38:48

much money do I need to have to

38:50

live the life that I want, which includes

38:52

the vacations that I want, includes the home

38:55

in the area that I want, it includes

38:57

the children that I might want or not

38:59

want, and what does that number literally look

39:01

like? Because we don't know that number, our

39:04

tendency is just to say more, more, more,

39:06

more, because it'll feel safer and safer and

39:08

safer and more certain that we'll get those

39:11

things. But it might be less than we

39:13

think. And there's a range. I mean, financial

39:15

security can be, I just want to be

39:17

out of debt and I want to have

39:20

a house and one vacation a year. And

39:22

financial security can be, depending on your emotional

39:24

makeup, it can be, as I often say,

39:26

one helipad per child. And the way I

39:29

often say one helipad per child. And the

39:31

way I came up with this was, I

39:33

had a student, we were trying to figure

39:35

out how much money mattered to it. And

39:38

he said, okay, well, you want the number.

39:40

And I said, look, this is in front

39:42

of the whole class. I said, why did

39:44

you just tell me when you travel? Do

39:47

you want to travel business class, coach, first

39:49

class? And he looked at me as if

39:51

I had two heads and he said, oh,

39:53

no, no, no, no. I went on my

39:56

own plane. I said, oh, okay, now we're

39:58

talking, okay. You want your own plane? And

40:00

I said, how about a helicopter? And he

40:03

said, yeah, a helicopter too. And I said

40:05

to him jokingly, how about a helipad for

40:07

each child? And he said, now I'm happy.

40:09

Okay, that's very different from somebody saying, I

40:12

just want to be out of debt and

40:14

one vacation a year. The hardest conversation you

40:16

have with yourself about values is privately. getting

40:18

away all the identity issues is how much

40:21

does it just, how much does it just,

40:23

how much does it matter to you? What's

40:25

the number? I ask people in the privacy

40:27

of their own lives to actually write down

40:30

the number. You can't make any decisions without

40:32

knowing the number and you've got to be

40:34

real with yourself. There's no crime. And I

40:36

think the number really should be added up.

40:39

We sat down with our financial advisor and

40:41

we have numbers for literally every part of

40:43

our life, like how much does it. Be

40:45

serious, like you like organic boogie groceries, like

40:48

put that on there. How much is helping

40:50

our families in the way that we want

40:52

to help them cost a year? And every

40:55

single thing is line-itemed on there. So now

40:57

we have a very specific number to work

40:59

towards. The honesty of that process that you

41:01

just described, I would recommend to every single

41:04

person in the world. It is so real.

41:06

Do you know how many people do it?

41:08

Very few. Very few people do it. Very

41:10

few. You have to know that to do

41:13

any kind of work towards the career you

41:15

want because you may be surprised actually how

41:17

little you want to need when you finally

41:19

are looking at the numbers and you sort

41:22

of say, okay, wait, wait, I don't need

41:24

organic bean sprouts, okay? Or you could say,

41:26

look, I can't live without that. You've got

41:28

to get real with yourself about what the

41:31

number is before you make any decisions. I

41:33

feel like a thousand tiny deaths on this

41:35

journey and that's like. allowing that, saying that's

41:37

okay, like I can't have everything. What really

41:40

matters to me is like the core of

41:42

all of it. I feel like a lot

41:44

of people run into the problem of not

41:46

even knowing what careers are out there. Like

41:49

I have a friend and he before he

41:51

went to college was like, I want to

41:53

figure out my major. So he went and

41:56

interviewed the highest paid people that he knew

41:58

and he was like, what's your job? How'd

42:00

you get? here, whatever. If I had done

42:02

that in my small town that I grew

42:05

up in, I would have interviewed like a

42:07

doctor, a lawyer, and like an accountant or

42:09

something like that. I didn't even have access

42:11

to the eye bankers that he ended up

42:14

interviewing that put him in the direction of

42:16

eye banking where he made much more money

42:18

than the doctors and lawyers in my small

42:20

town. But if you'd asked me in high

42:23

school... I would have been like, oh yeah,

42:25

these are the richest people I know, this

42:27

is what success looks like, because I just

42:29

didn't even have the spheres of influence that

42:32

told me what else was out there. So

42:34

how do we know what we don't know?

42:36

Okay, so Liz, there is research that supports

42:38

everything that you've just said. There's research that

42:41

shows that when kids come out of high

42:43

school and they ask them what professions exist,

42:45

that the highest number, it's typically, there's three

42:48

to seven, the kids coming out of high

42:50

school, lawyer ambulance driver. It's sort of like

42:52

what the, you know, it's what they see

42:54

in their own town. If they were like

42:57

a bar before it. Right, exactly. Or if

42:59

they just saw it with their own eye.

43:01

Yeah. Okay. And then they get to college

43:03

and you think that list gets bigger, but

43:06

it doesn't for some reason because they start

43:08

focusing in on a major. And then by

43:10

the time they get to business school, where

43:12

I find them, there's three careers coming that

43:15

are going to like... totally blow up, you

43:17

know, interesting parts of the economy. There's all

43:19

sorts of industries. There's 135 industries. And within

43:21

those industries, hundreds of different kinds of companies

43:24

and hundreds of different kinds of jobs. And

43:26

there's no curriculum anywhere to teach you how

43:28

big the world is and what kind of.

43:30

And so we're sort of stuck with this

43:33

mono vision of what we know and what's

43:35

right. Your friend is very unusual that he

43:37

did that. There's like this children's book, Richard

43:40

Scaryy, where he's sort of like, you know.

43:42

He looks around the town and he sees

43:44

all the different jobs. There's nothing like this

43:46

for adults and even the richer scary one

43:49

is really sort of like bus driver, a

43:51

teacher, right? Exactly. You know what this means?

43:53

It means it's on you, it's on us,

43:55

it's on the individual to open their aperture

43:58

and that's very hard because there's no guidance.

44:00

I mean, you have to read everything, watch

44:02

people, but part of it is just a

44:04

mindset saying... There are so many different kinds

44:07

of jobs and people out there that I

44:09

don't even know about. This is why I

44:11

have this line. I use it all the

44:13

time. Your currency is your currency. How much

44:16

you're worth? It depends on how much you

44:18

know. And you've got to open your aperture.

44:20

Nobody's going to open it for you. Like

44:22

I always tell my students, go type into

44:25

the... Oh, your currency. How current you are?

44:27

Yeah. Are there pragmatic steps we can take

44:29

to widen our aperture? Yes. I call this

44:32

the watch list and I think every single

44:34

person should create a watch list because you

44:36

need to be disciplined and that is websites

44:38

or information sources that you're going to check

44:41

in with at least once a week. And

44:43

what you want to do is you want

44:45

to put on it sources of information you

44:47

wouldn't look at, holomists or websites that are

44:50

feeding your head with what's going on in

44:52

the world. For instance, on my watch list

44:54

on... Tiktok and any way I can find

44:56

it, I followed what's going on in two

44:59

countries, okay, Namibia and Argentina. Why do I

45:01

do that? Because their economies are new and

45:03

interesting and always changing and kind of bellwethers.

45:05

And I would stop thinking about them if

45:08

I didn't put them on my watch list

45:10

and I follow all these Tiktok feeds about

45:12

these countries and I sort of keep up

45:14

with what's going on in new economies. Then

45:17

there's a lot of different websites and reports.

45:19

that tell me about mega trends, which are

45:21

economic trends that are coming. And if you

45:23

just go to your Google search bar and

45:26

you type in, how can I find out

45:28

about mega trends, they'll give you a long

45:30

list, put one of them on your watch

45:33

list. And the other is to read newspapers

45:35

or websites or websites or Twitter feeds that

45:37

you disagree with. Because they will tell you

45:39

things you don't know that you should. It's

45:42

painful. I get it. It's painful. Like I

45:44

read columnist who I strongly disagree with. Otherwise,

45:46

our role gets smaller and smaller and smaller.

45:48

Why would we open it up? Because we

45:51

have to start seeing and hearing things that

45:53

are sort of upsetting our reality. So I

45:55

say create a watch list, I students do

45:57

it together, and they sort of try to

46:00

create a watch list of 10 things, which

46:02

are news sources that are surprising them and

46:04

check in once a week and then put

46:06

a little checkmark that you did it. Are

46:09

there jobs that you did it? Are there

46:11

jobs that you think we should be aware

46:13

of that are kind of coming down the

46:15

pipeline that we might not have heard of?

46:18

Well, I mean, obviously AI is going to

46:20

be changing your job. Just go to AI

46:22

and ask it. Okay. I'm a content creator

46:25

at a website. How is AI going to

46:27

change my job in the next two years?

46:29

Just ask it. AI will tell you. Okay.

46:31

And you're not going to like that picture.

46:34

Can you follow that up with how can

46:36

I protect my job? Yes. Yes. You can

46:38

ask it. I mean, I think this is

46:40

where AI will do its best in answering.

46:43

Your best way to protect your job. This

46:45

is the number one way to protect your

46:47

job is to develop. because it's very hard

46:49

to have, develop a mindset of adaptability. Adaptability

46:52

is the word, and that is an openness

46:54

to learning new skills. So LinkedIn has incredible

46:56

research that says that for the past 10

46:58

to 15 years, 10 years, that what they

47:01

call skill churn means how often you have

47:03

to turn over your skills, that every 18

47:05

months you have to turn over around 25%

47:07

of your skills. So say there were 10

47:10

things that you did, in the past recent

47:12

history, given all the sort of technological changes.

47:14

Every 18 months, sort of four of those

47:17

skills got thrown out and you had to

47:19

learn four new skills. And if you think

47:21

back to your own job, you probably have

47:23

to say, oh yeah, yeah, I used to

47:26

do this, now I do this, I have

47:28

this new skill. But going forward, it looks

47:30

like that skill churn over the every 18

47:32

months is going to be 65%. So if

47:35

you're doing 10 things, six of those things

47:37

are going to be thrown out and you're

47:39

going to have to learn six new things

47:41

and it's your choice, And so you're sitting

47:44

at your desk and you notice in a

47:46

meeting that somebody mentioned a technology you didn't

47:48

know or an idea you didn't hear about

47:50

and you have one choice which is to

47:53

say, I can't take it. I've got what

47:55

I called. Nufobia, which is I can't take

47:57

one more new thing, okay, and I get

47:59

it. Or you can say, I'm going to

48:02

go right now and learn that. I remember

48:04

when Canva came around, somebody who I worked

48:06

with said to me, we have to find

48:08

somebody to do Canva for us, Susie, you're

48:11

really going to need to use Canva, you're

48:13

really going to need to use Canva, you're

48:15

really going to need to use Canva, you're

48:18

really going to need to use Canva, Canva,

48:20

you're really going to use Canva, use Canva,

48:22

use Canva, you're really going to use Canva,

48:24

use Canva, use Canva, can to use Canva,

48:27

can to use Canva, Canva, Canva, you're, you're

48:29

really going to use Canva, Canva, Canva. You're

48:31

really going to use Canva. You're, use Canva,

48:33

use Canva. You're really going to use Canva,

48:36

use Canva, use Canva, They're looking for somebody

48:38

else to do it, go learn it yourself.

48:40

You have to be in a state that's

48:42

agonizing, which is constant upskilling. And you know,

48:45

the human brain and the human personality, you're

48:47

just not wired to constantly upskill for goodness

48:49

sake. Everything else is hard enough. And imagine

48:51

if you're doing this, if you're not wired

48:54

to constantly upskill for goodness sake, everything else

48:56

is hard enough. And imagine if you're doing

48:58

this while you're doing this while you're mom

49:00

at home, you're not. what you just said

49:03

though because it is exhausting and it's tiring

49:05

and you just said you're already doing it

49:07

we are upskilling constantly in our lives and

49:10

we're maybe not even appreciating the ways that

49:12

we are already practicing that. Yeah absolutely the

49:14

perfect example is parenting. Because just when you

49:16

sort of get the hang of potty training

49:19

them, then you have to teach them to

49:21

read, okay? And you're constantly as a parent,

49:23

you know, what you do and your skills

49:25

is when they're a little tiny babies, they're

49:28

very different from your skills when they're teenagers,

49:30

and then when they become adults. But it's

49:32

part of the human condition, and we kind

49:34

of get it, and it's why parenting is

49:37

so exhausting. The reason is you're constantly changing

49:39

your skills to get it right. You're just

49:41

trying to stay one inch ahead of them,

49:43

ahead of them, frankly, frankly, frankly, frankly, frankly,

49:46

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details. I'll come back to everything

56:00

being exhausting in a second, but

56:02

AI is a big one. And

56:04

I want to, there's something to

56:06

where I think sometimes people hear like

56:08

tech stuff and they're like, well, I'm

56:10

not a coder, I'm not a tech

56:12

person, this isn't for me. And I

56:14

also want people to understand all of

56:16

the non-coding non-tech jobs in the tech

56:18

world because I feel like that's missed

56:20

so often. Some of my highest paid

56:22

friends and my happiest friends at work.

56:24

are ones who have no coding tech

56:26

experience, but they're working for tech companies.

56:28

Of course, tech companies are like any

56:30

company. They need people in HR. They

56:32

need idea people. They need people in

56:34

operations. They need people in logistics. There's

56:36

a million jobs in tech. Some of those companies,

56:39

you know, the kings and the queens are the

56:41

coders. But you know, AI is starting to code.

56:43

Okay. So what jobs do you think are specifically

56:45

going to be? needed if AI is doing

56:47

all these jobs within the world of

56:50

AI. Okay, so there's two different answers

56:52

to that. Number one, we're going to

56:54

have a period where AI is still

56:56

coming up to speed. It's early days

56:58

for AI. And there are places where

57:00

AI has too much margin for error.

57:03

One percent margin for error is not

57:05

tolerated in a lot of different places

57:07

for some writing. Some writing AI can

57:10

do it. But other times there's writing

57:12

that's so important that 1% margin for

57:14

error is not permissible. And I think

57:17

it'd be very, very interesting

57:19

to sort of start to think about

57:21

jobs that have no tolerance for margin

57:23

for error, because those are going to

57:25

be jobs that are going to be

57:27

jobs that are going to be jobs

57:29

that are going to be jobs that

57:31

are going to be jobs that are

57:33

going to be jobs that are going

57:35

to be jobs that are going to

57:37

become more and more important, because technology

57:39

is going to be friendships. So anything

57:41

that maybe enhances friendship or human connection

57:43

might be a growth area, storytelling is

57:46

always going to be with us. But

57:48

if you're not a high-tech person, I think

57:50

that the tech jobs are going to get ever

57:52

more skilled. Because if AI can teach

57:54

people to do simple coding and then ever

57:56

more complicated coding, a lot of the jobs

57:59

that we're tech. you know, sort of like

58:01

the first three, four layers, AI is going

58:03

to be able to do. I mean, people

58:05

now are just saying create an app, you

58:07

could type into some AI functionalities, create an

58:09

app that does it, and the coders are

58:11

completely removed from it. So then what becomes

58:13

very important is people who can imagine sort

58:15

of high level training these large language systems,

58:17

what they should be doing. There's like... a

58:19

very limited number of people who do that.

58:21

Their brains are different, they're different. But you

58:23

know, some things are going to remain, a

58:25

wonderful restaurant's going to remain, teaching in some

58:27

levels, especially if young children is going to

58:29

remain. And I think that you just got

58:31

to not be frightened of the technology. I

58:33

mean, we're all in it together, trying to

58:35

learn it. You said we need to be

58:37

upskilling constantly to kind of contend with this

58:40

new world, and you acknowledge that that is

58:42

exhausting. while many of us are already burnt

58:44

out, which is why we're probably looking to

58:46

make a change, we need to somehow turn

58:48

on our brain, turn on our creativity, turn

58:50

on our processing to figure out what change

58:52

we should make and take this leap, which

58:54

is a very energy-intensive thing to do. I

58:56

think the only way we do that is

58:58

that we stop calling it exhaustion. I think

59:00

that it is self-defeating and it's self-fulfilling. And

59:02

I think that we call it growing instead.

59:04

We call it growing. Instead of saying, I'm

59:06

tired. How do we know if we're at

59:08

a good enough job and we should just

59:10

hang out there and it'll be fine and

59:12

we have a lot of what we need

59:14

and we can work on the other parts

59:16

of our lives or if there's something better

59:18

out there and we should take this life?

59:20

Yeah, the job usually tells you. If you're

59:22

like in a job that's pretty good, should

59:24

I stick it out or should I bust

59:26

out, right? This is the velvet coffin at

59:28

work as I call it. and the lid

59:30

is kind of closing on you and you

59:33

think if I don't get out now I'm

59:35

never going to get out and some people

59:37

stay in and some people bust out and

59:39

what I ask people to do in that

59:41

situation is to imagine yourself staying in the

59:43

velvet cough and until the end let the

59:45

lid close how do you feel and you

59:47

some people say It was worth it because

59:49

it accommodated all the people who loved me

59:51

and who I loved and to bust out

59:53

would have hurt too many people. And then

59:55

you should stay. But if there's a piece

59:57

of view and you answer that question, what

59:59

would make me cry in my 85th birthday?

1:00:01

And it was like, I never wrote the

1:00:03

book. I never started the company. I never

1:00:05

trusted myself enough to do the thing I

1:00:07

felt I was born to do. You got

1:00:09

to take a heel of your hand and

1:00:11

you got to shove that lit open. If

1:00:13

we identify. a job that we want that

1:00:15

we aren't necessarily qualified for? What should be

1:00:17

our next step? This happens. You do this

1:00:19

whole process, becoming you, and then you say,

1:00:21

oh, okay, it's clear, I need to be

1:00:24

an emergency room doctor, okay, and you don't

1:00:26

have any of those qualifications, then I would

1:00:28

use 10, 10, 10, then I would use

1:00:30

10, 10, 10, 10, 10, then I would

1:00:32

use 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, I would

1:00:34

use 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10,

1:00:36

10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, And

1:00:38

you had to go back to school because

1:00:40

to go into international relations, and a lot

1:00:42

of times you don't need a master's, you

1:00:44

need a PhD. And then we had to

1:00:46

make a decision around his values, like, how

1:00:48

much did achievement matter to him? How much

1:00:50

did money matter to him? How much did

1:00:52

money matter to him? How much did money

1:00:54

matter to him? How much did money matter

1:00:56

to him? How much did money matter to

1:00:58

him? How much did money matter to him?

1:01:00

Money matter to him? How much did money

1:01:02

matter to him? How much did money matter

1:01:04

to him? How much did money matter to

1:01:06

him? How much did money matter to him.

1:01:08

How much did money matter to him. How

1:01:10

much did money matter to him. How much

1:01:12

did. How much did money matter to him.

1:01:14

How much did money matter to him. How

1:01:17

much did. How much did. I could have

1:01:19

been a doctor, would have really dug being

1:01:21

a doctor. I watched those same shows and

1:01:23

I'm like, thank God somebody else is willing

1:01:25

to do it. I know, I agree. And

1:01:27

then they show blood and I was like,

1:01:29

I could have never done this. But I

1:01:31

think, you know, sometimes I think as a

1:01:33

mind game, I think, what if when I

1:01:35

went back to Teach at NYU, what if

1:01:37

I had said to myself at that moment,

1:01:39

you know, I've got this like these last

1:01:41

20, 20, 30 years, maybe more please God.

1:01:43

But you know I've got those years left

1:01:45

those years left, I've got those years left,

1:01:47

I've got those years left, I've got those

1:01:49

years left, I've got those years left, I've

1:01:51

got those years left, I've got those years

1:01:53

left, I've got those years left, I've got

1:01:55

those years left, I've got those years left,

1:01:57

I've got those years left, I've got those

1:01:59

years left, I've got those years left, I've

1:02:01

got those years left, Then you have to

1:02:03

make the decision about how badly you want

1:02:05

it and how you would feel if you

1:02:07

didn't do it. You know, and you can't

1:02:10

look away. You got to look right into

1:02:12

it. The two examples you just shared are

1:02:14

both examples where education. is the missing qualification

1:02:16

piece. In general, do you think that going

1:02:18

to grad school or getting some sort of

1:02:20

continuing education is like a really good move

1:02:22

if you're trying to pivot careers? Only for

1:02:24

some fields. For some fields, it's just better

1:02:26

to get a job in the field. Then

1:02:28

the calculation would be, how much am I

1:02:30

willing to go down the ladder to switch

1:02:32

careers? Yeah, absolutely. How many dues am I

1:02:34

willing to pay? And am I willing to

1:02:36

be called an assistant for a few years?

1:02:38

The educational institutions would like you to believe

1:02:40

that you'd like to be called an assistant

1:02:42

for a few years. The educational institutions would

1:02:44

like you to believe that you have to

1:02:46

go get a master's degree in it. directing

1:02:48

is just go get on a set and

1:02:50

learn how to do it. Because when you

1:02:52

go to Hollywood, they look at your degree

1:02:54

and they go, okay, what have you done?

1:02:56

So I think Hollywood's an example. I think

1:02:58

in some cases journalism is. I mean, there's

1:03:01

a lot of journalism schools and they've trained

1:03:03

some people very well, but at the end

1:03:05

of the day, yeah. Yeah. And I mean,

1:03:07

one of the most interesting paths to. becoming

1:03:09

successful in journalism that I've seen is people

1:03:11

who are willing to go do war journalism

1:03:13

because you're able to get bylines at incredible

1:03:15

publications that you wouldn't otherwise be able to

1:03:17

and then you can maximize those bylines. And

1:03:19

when you want to be journalists you got

1:03:21

to have hustle and so the only way

1:03:23

to sort of show your hustle is out

1:03:25

there trying to get the bylines. But by

1:03:27

contrast anything in national security Anything that has

1:03:29

to do with working in the government, in

1:03:31

the CIA or the FBI, or anything that

1:03:33

has to really do with cyber security, in

1:03:35

general, that's not a learn on the job.

1:03:37

You've got to go get typically a master's

1:03:39

or a PhD in that. What if we've

1:03:41

identified like a quite competitive career, like your

1:03:43

daughter wanted to go to Hollywood and make

1:03:45

it in Hollywood? She's a casting agent? Director,

1:03:47

she's casting director. Casting director. Casting director. If

1:03:49

something is competitive, is there a calculus that

1:03:51

we should be doing about whether or not

1:03:54

it's willing, like we should be taking, like

1:03:56

we should be taking, like we should be

1:03:58

taking, like we should be taking that risk?

1:04:00

Okay, what you have to figure out, the

1:04:02

calculus, like we should be taking, like, like

1:04:04

we should be taking, like we should be

1:04:06

taking that, like, like we should be taking

1:04:08

that, like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

1:04:10

like, like, like, like we should be taking,

1:04:12

like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

1:04:14

But I need to know you have to

1:04:16

do the hard work of facing into that

1:04:18

answer. Hollywood in particular is filled with stories

1:04:20

of people who had to toil for 15

1:04:22

years before they got their first big break.

1:04:24

But somewhere along the way there was somebody

1:04:26

who was believing in them and you have

1:04:28

to get some outside verification. And you know,

1:04:30

podcasting is a very interesting. Everybody wants to

1:04:32

be a podcaster. And at a certain point

1:04:34

you have to decide if the audience is

1:04:36

going to come to you or not. Are

1:04:38

there any numbers that are beginning to suggest

1:04:40

that, whoa, people are listening. Otherwise, you've got

1:04:42

to have to say, okay, this is a

1:04:45

very competitive field, and I gave it my

1:04:47

all, but it was not going to happen

1:04:49

for me. But it was not going to

1:04:51

happen for me. Do you have to say,

1:04:53

okay, this is a very competitive field, and

1:04:55

I gave it my all, but it was

1:04:57

not going to happen for me. But it

1:04:59

was not going to happen for me. But

1:05:01

it was not going to happen for me.

1:05:03

But it. But it was not going to

1:05:05

happen for me. But it was not going

1:05:07

to happen to happen for me. But it

1:05:09

my all, I happen for me. But it.

1:05:11

But it. But it. But it was not

1:05:13

going to happen for me. But it going

1:05:15

to happen for me. But it. But it

1:05:17

was not going to happen for me. But

1:05:19

it. But it going to happen for me.

1:05:21

But What if we're deciding whether or not

1:05:23

we want to start our own business? So

1:05:25

first of all, are we interested in entrepreneurial

1:05:27

life? And then second of all, is the

1:05:29

business idea worth pursuing? Yeah, okay. So entrepreneurship

1:05:31

is such an interesting topic. Many of my

1:05:33

students want to be entrepreneurs. I myself am

1:05:35

an entrepreneur, as are you. I started an

1:05:38

entrepreneurial company and sold it. So I learned

1:05:40

a lot about entrepreneurs being one. Entrepreneurship has

1:05:42

a couple of things that go into it.

1:05:44

One, there are certain aptitudes you must have.

1:05:46

They love telling people they're an entrepreneur, but

1:05:48

they have none of the aptitude. So for

1:05:50

instance, one of the aptitudes that you must

1:05:52

have to be an entrepreneur is what I

1:05:54

call nerve. That's the combination of stamina, mental

1:05:56

and emotional stamina because nothing is harder. Nothing

1:05:58

is harder. The other is edge, the ability

1:06:00

to make a yes or no decision, and

1:06:02

the other is radical candor because entrepreneurship is

1:06:04

very hard. You have no time for BS.

1:06:06

You got to cut to the truth and

1:06:08

say the truth. And for you to go

1:06:10

into entrepreneurship. of individuals to go into entrepreneurship

1:06:12

and not have nerve, stamina, edge, and candor.

1:06:14

Forget it. Don't try. You also have to

1:06:16

have this aptitude to be able to have

1:06:18

people say no to your face constantly. You're

1:06:20

going to have to raise money. You're going

1:06:22

to get kicked down. And the saying is

1:06:24

true that most entrepreneurs get run out of...

1:06:26

before they run out of time. You have

1:06:28

to have stamina. So entrepreneurship has a huge

1:06:31

component of actual aptitudes in it. Then you

1:06:33

have to have a really good idea. Not

1:06:35

only do we have to love our ideas,

1:06:37

but other people have to love them. There

1:06:39

has to be proof of concept. Those things

1:06:41

all go into it. And then there's values.

1:06:43

If you're going to be poor, you're going

1:06:45

to be poor before you're rich. And some

1:06:47

people want to become entrepreneurs because they want

1:06:49

to become entrepreneurs because they want to get

1:06:51

the money. you're going to have to be

1:06:53

prepared to fail first. I love that you

1:06:55

say we need other people to love our

1:06:57

ideas because I think sometimes we think, oh,

1:06:59

if we build it, we can persuade people

1:07:01

into liking it. But actually, it's a much

1:07:03

better use of our time to test whether

1:07:05

people like the, if they don't like the

1:07:07

idea when we explain it, they're not going

1:07:09

to be somehow persuaded when they see it

1:07:11

in action. This is a call product market

1:07:13

market fit. And that is, okay, you got

1:07:15

the product. Is there any market fit for

1:07:17

it? I mean, does the market want it?

1:07:19

And we fall in love with these ideas

1:07:22

and we find out, you know, we are

1:07:24

the only ones who would pay money for

1:07:26

it. And then the other thing you have

1:07:28

to look at is the business model. Can

1:07:30

you possibly make money doing this? Some ideas

1:07:32

are fantastic. They're just not economically viable. It

1:07:34

costs too much to start them up or

1:07:36

the revenue stream is too small and it

1:07:38

could be a really good idea. know why

1:07:40

you want the job interview. It's not enough

1:07:42

just to push a button and hope your

1:07:44

resume is going to be seen. I'm like

1:07:46

still a believer in cover letters. Like if

1:07:48

you're applying on LinkedIn for God's sake, send

1:07:50

them a letter saying I just applied and

1:07:52

here's the reason why I want that job.

1:07:54

You need to know your why and why

1:07:56

you're fit for the job. That would be

1:07:58

my best advice is know your why and

1:08:00

make the case for yourself. Do you think

1:08:02

that it's more about who you know than

1:08:04

it used to? It used to be in

1:08:06

business that we would say, hire for culture

1:08:08

and train for skills. In other words, bring

1:08:10

people in who sort of are fit culturally.

1:08:12

They share your company and then train the

1:08:15

skills. And the facts are, technology sort of

1:08:17

obliterated that. is that there are certain skills

1:08:19

you must hire for. Like right now, I

1:08:21

need somebody who does a certain tech thing

1:08:23

in my company, and I hope I get

1:08:25

cultural fit, but I gotta hire those skills.

1:08:27

So I do think that there's a balance.

1:08:29

Sometimes you get a job because of who

1:08:31

you know, but more and more, what you

1:08:33

know matters. It really matters. What's your best

1:08:35

tip for nailing the interview if you get

1:08:37

it? Authenticity. People are looking at you and

1:08:39

you wouldn't be in the interview if they

1:08:41

didn't think you had the skills. So let's

1:08:43

just put aside, they've seen you have the

1:08:45

skills, you've talked about how you've applied the

1:08:47

skills, and they're talking two or three or

1:08:49

four people who all have those skills. Then

1:08:51

you're going to get the job if you're

1:08:53

real and you're not phony. Like when you

1:08:55

say something funny and real people like oh,

1:08:57

I'd love to work with this person I'm

1:08:59

not gonna hire that stiff over there They've

1:09:01

got the same amount of qualifications. I want

1:09:03

to work with this person It's so hard

1:09:05

because you're so anxious when you're in the

1:09:08

interview environment So it's like how do you're

1:09:10

in the interview environment? So it's like how

1:09:12

do you loosen up enough to actually show

1:09:14

who you are? Yeah, I mean you could

1:09:16

even say I'm so nervous in an interview

1:09:18

that I drove this interview that I drove

1:09:20

here last night to see authentic, it's real,

1:09:22

but also it shows like here's how I...

1:09:24

I'm so resourceful. Here's how I combat that.

1:09:26

Yeah, here's what I intend with that, which

1:09:28

is something you definitely want on your team.

1:09:30

Right. Do you have any tips for finding

1:09:32

good mentors? I have a very strong opinion

1:09:34

about this, Liz, and that is this. Everyone's

1:09:36

a very strong opinion about this, Liz, and

1:09:38

that is this. Everyone's a mentor. Everyone's a

1:09:40

mentor. Everyone, about this. It's something than you

1:09:42

are. It's something that comes into a room.

1:09:44

I love it. Mentor. I love the way

1:09:46

that person thinks about the economy mentor. I

1:09:48

love the way that woman's marriage works mentor.

1:09:50

You can learn from everybody. That's the mindset.

1:09:52

I think it's very hard to have that

1:09:54

kind of night in shining armor, that mentor,

1:09:56

who you have that personal relationship with, in

1:09:59

life, if you have one mentor like that,

1:10:01

you're lucky. It develops because there's a great

1:10:03

deal of love and chemistry. I probably meant

1:10:05

four or five women that way. We

1:10:07

were friends first. They were younger. There was

1:10:09

a woman who was a babysitter in my

1:10:11

neighborhood. I thought, oh, she's a little bit

1:10:13

of free time. I'm going to ask her if

1:10:15

she's going to walk my dogs. I was

1:10:18

probably 50 and she was probably

1:10:20

22. And one day I was... training her

1:10:22

how to walk my dogs and we started

1:10:24

talking and I thought God she's so funny

1:10:26

and smart and interesting and I blurted out

1:10:28

to her what are you doing babysitting

1:10:30

and she stopped and she said what am I

1:10:32

doing period we became friends and that

1:10:35

was probably 20 something you know it was

1:10:37

probably 15 years ago we became friends I

1:10:39

loved her and without even noticing it I

1:10:41

became her I became her mentor she came

1:10:44

to me with every hard decision I talked

1:10:46

her about her career I wrote her references

1:10:48

when she went to business school and I

1:10:50

just got a gave a reference for her because

1:10:52

she's in line to be the president of a

1:10:54

hospital and in the same time she's had four

1:10:56

children. I became her mentor. It wasn't like she

1:10:59

ever came to me and said, will you be

1:11:01

my mentor? All right, it developed very, very

1:11:03

naturally. I interviewed a woman years ago on

1:11:05

the Today Show, Chris Abadner, who was making

1:11:07

makeup in her kitchen. She's now the founder

1:11:10

and CEO of Thrive Cosmetics, which I highly

1:11:12

recommend. And she would tell you- Wait, they

1:11:14

make my mascara. Yes. They make the best

1:11:16

mascara on the planet. They're fantastic. And I

1:11:18

met her when I was a reporter at

1:11:21

the Today Show. and she was literally making

1:11:23

lipstick in her kitchen and she was just

1:11:25

starting off but what she was doing is

1:11:27

every time she made a product she gave

1:11:30

a product to a woman in cancer treatment

1:11:32

she's just an amazing human being we became friends

1:11:34

and she never said to me Susie will be

1:11:36

you be my mentor but she would probably tell

1:11:38

you today I am her mentor but you know

1:11:40

what she's a mentor to me the way she

1:11:42

lives her life I watch with great love and

1:11:44

admiration like she said to me She didn't let my

1:11:46

podcast not too long ago and she said to me,

1:11:49

you need to have more fun. And I thought, I

1:11:51

trust everything she says. And she's, you know, half my

1:11:53

age. And I learned from her all the time. I

1:11:55

had her come talk to my class at NYU.

1:11:57

I learned from her so much. Mentorship is a

1:11:59

total mindset. that you can learn from everybody.

1:12:01

And if you're lucky over your life, you'll

1:12:03

have two big mentors, three big mentors. I

1:12:05

love that advice. What do we do if

1:12:08

we feel like our partner could have a

1:12:10

job that was more satisfying, that they could

1:12:12

be more successful, but they're maybe not taking

1:12:14

the steps to get their themselves? Oh God,

1:12:16

I've just seen this women just manage their

1:12:18

husband's lives. We just do, I didn't do

1:12:21

it with Jack because he was managing his

1:12:23

own life, just fine. Thank you. We become

1:12:25

the emotional managers and the logistical managers of

1:12:27

our husband's lives. And my advice as an

1:12:29

old lady on this is that you're not

1:12:31

their mother. To quote the great jailo, I

1:12:34

ain't your mama. And they got to do

1:12:36

it for themselves because they got to own

1:12:38

the whole process themselves. You can put the

1:12:40

tools in front of them. But it's a

1:12:42

recipe for disaster if you are trying to

1:12:44

move them into your vision of their life.

1:12:46

They've got to want it that much. Maybe

1:12:49

you could do like the values bridge test

1:12:51

together or something like that. We do. And

1:12:53

the new version of the values bridge that's

1:12:55

coming, you can add a person who's also

1:12:57

taken it and you actually see their values

1:12:59

right next to theirs. And you can sit

1:13:02

there as a couple and say, oh look

1:13:04

at this, dear achievements, my number one value.

1:13:06

But look, it's number 15 for you. What

1:13:08

do we think about that? Wait, you said

1:13:10

this when I was on your podcast, but

1:13:12

I want you to say it here because

1:13:15

I do think it's really interesting for people

1:13:17

to sit with. You said that you think

1:13:19

it's really important for the long-term success for

1:13:21

a relationship to have aligned values. It's not

1:13:23

an opposite, a tract, it's a tract, it's

1:13:25

not, I fill in their holes, it's if

1:13:28

you don't have the same values, mostly, you're

1:13:30

going to have some real problems. Can you

1:13:32

speak to that? But if your values are

1:13:34

not generally aligned, it's just too much friction.

1:13:36

At the beginning, it's kind of fun and

1:13:38

sexy to have a little conflict and, you

1:13:41

know, he's extroverted, I'm introverted, you know, opposite,

1:13:43

we fill each other's holes. And I think

1:13:45

that every time I hear that, I think,

1:13:47

uh-oh, let's check in in 20 years. And

1:13:49

I think that what I've seen in life

1:13:51

is that the couples who share values... up

1:13:53

being more successful long term, but especially if

1:13:56

you don't have a language to talk about

1:13:58

your differences, it begins to eat away at

1:14:00

you. And then we sort of accuse the

1:14:02

other person of not being like us. That's

1:14:04

what we do. We don't say, I'm so

1:14:06

happy, you're different from me. We say, I

1:14:09

can't stand the fact that you're different from

1:14:11

me. We say, I can't stand the fact

1:14:13

that you're different from me. And this comes

1:14:15

up, actually, with children, also one of the

1:14:17

hardest things we discover with totally different values

1:14:19

than we do. and it can cause a

1:14:22

lot of conflict. Well, what do we do

1:14:24

about them? Because we can't break up with

1:14:26

them. No, we can't. And that is when

1:14:28

you really need to get a language of

1:14:30

values. I mean, I fixed every problem I

1:14:32

had with my son, Roscoe, when I finally

1:14:35

began to understand that we just had very

1:14:37

different values. I finally began to understand that

1:14:39

we just had very different values. I wanted

1:14:41

my oldest son, Roscoe, when I finally began

1:14:43

to understand that we just had very different

1:14:45

values. We just had to understand that. And

1:14:48

then he started to become his own person.

1:14:50

I actually literally said, God, why have you

1:14:52

given this to me? Why have you given

1:14:54

me this burden? And I had a very

1:14:56

wise friend who said to me the hardest

1:14:58

thing you're going to have to come to

1:15:00

terms with Suzy's, he's not you. And then

1:15:03

I had to learn who he was, and

1:15:05

then I had to learn who he was,

1:15:07

Susie, he's not you. And because I can't

1:15:09

learn who. And because I can't learn who.

1:15:11

And because he was Susie's, he's, he's, he's,

1:15:13

he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's,

1:15:16

he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's,

1:15:18

he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's,

1:15:20

he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's,

1:15:22

he But I just love them and I

1:15:24

refuse to be restrained from one of my

1:15:26

own children. And actually, I mean, one of

1:15:29

the greatest beneficiaries of all the language around

1:15:31

values that I've done is been me, because

1:15:33

I've learned to talk to my kids about

1:15:35

how we're different. And one time, I teach

1:15:37

becoming you outside of NYU, I teach these

1:15:39

intensives, a three-day intensive, a one-day intensive, and

1:15:42

one of the most rewarding things that ever

1:15:44

happened to me, was a woman, came all

1:15:46

the way from California, California, came home and

1:15:48

for the first time in 20 years I

1:15:50

had a conversation with my adult children and

1:15:52

it gave her language to finally understand her

1:15:54

children and talk to them and I'll tell

1:15:57

you something if that's all the book does

1:15:59

if all if that's all my language does

1:16:01

is help parents become understranged from their children.

1:16:03

It's been worth it to me. One of

1:16:05

the last things that I want to touch

1:16:07

on is I always thought the Enneagram was

1:16:10

kind of BS like I thought it was

1:16:12

fun but maybe there wasn't a lot of

1:16:14

there there. You're a fan of it. Can

1:16:16

you explain why? I love the Enneagram. I

1:16:18

thought it was BS and I wanted to

1:16:20

have more testing around temperament in my class

1:16:23

and I kept on asking scholars who I

1:16:25

really respected other academics. What test should I

1:16:27

give? And like when the 14th person said,

1:16:29

why aren't you using the endogram? I was

1:16:31

like, okay, fine, I'm going to go learn

1:16:33

more about the endogram. Then nobody saw me

1:16:36

for two weeks because I went down the

1:16:38

rabbit hole of the endogram. Like, do not

1:16:40

do that. And I learned about it, and

1:16:42

I learned how scientifically validated it is. And

1:16:44

I learned about the scientifically validated it is.

1:16:46

And I learned how scientifically of clinical psychologists,

1:16:49

and it's gotten a full. everything you need

1:16:51

to know. I think it is one very

1:16:53

large tile in the mosaic of your life.

1:16:55

I think it does help you understand two

1:16:57

big things about yourself. It helps you understand

1:16:59

your deepest motivation, what you really, really want,

1:17:01

and I think it helps you understand your

1:17:04

deepest motivation, what you really, really want, and

1:17:06

I think it helps you understand your deepest

1:17:08

fear. And so for me, I'm an big

1:17:10

achiever, and my number one motivation is feeling

1:17:12

validation, feeling validation, feeling heard. Okay, that's what

1:17:14

achievers want. I was in agony because I

1:17:17

thought, oh my God, I'm so seen, how

1:17:19

unfortunate I'm finding this out at age 60.

1:17:21

It changed my life because right around the

1:17:23

time I learned about the anagram, I got

1:17:25

a job offer. And the thing about achievers

1:17:27

is they want the most claps. When you've

1:17:30

got the most claps, you're being seen and

1:17:32

heard and you're being validated. And I got

1:17:34

a big job offer that would have taken

1:17:36

me... away from the work I love being

1:17:38

a professor, but I would have gotten a

1:17:40

huge amount of claps, sort of would have

1:17:43

been a big story that I had taken

1:17:45

this job, and I thought, oh, I'm going

1:17:47

to get the most claps, and then I

1:17:49

thought that that's just the achiever in me.

1:17:51

I'm not going to be good at that

1:17:53

job. And frankly, underneath it all, I don't

1:17:56

really want... that job. I want the pleasure

1:17:58

of getting that job. I want the cheers

1:18:00

of getting that job. And I said no

1:18:02

to the job. And everybody who knew me

1:18:04

thought, Susie's finally grown up. So I am

1:18:06

like a true believer in the underground. It

1:18:08

teaches you stuff about yourself. You need to

1:18:11

know. It's not the only thing you need

1:18:13

to know. It certainly teaches you about people

1:18:15

around you. That same son I just mentioned,

1:18:17

Roscoe, when I found out that he was

1:18:19

a peace seeker. What his big fear is,

1:18:21

is, is disharm. And it had always driven

1:18:24

me out of my mind that when I

1:18:26

got in his face, he immediately went like,

1:18:28

whatever, mom, whatever, mom, whatever, mom. And I

1:18:30

hated that about him because I am fine

1:18:32

with friction. I'm fine with duking it out.

1:18:34

That's part of who I am. And I

1:18:37

thought, oh, it's just his... Anyagram at work,

1:18:39

he can't take friction and I've learned how

1:18:41

to speak to him differently because I now

1:18:43

know his anyagram type. So I'm big supporter,

1:18:45

big supporter. And is it cool just to

1:18:47

take one of the tests online or do

1:18:50

you need to like hire a professional? No,

1:18:52

no, no. There's only, there's one really good

1:18:54

test. The reti. Make sure you're taking the

1:18:56

ready. R-H-E-T-I. That's the one to take. It's

1:18:58

the only one that's scientifically validated. It costs

1:19:00

$14. I'm sorry. I know that's not everyone's

1:19:02

budget, but I'd say that it's worth taking.

1:19:05

It's $14 worth taking. And then there's a

1:19:07

great website called upbuild.com that explains the types

1:19:09

very well. It's free. You can go listen

1:19:11

to their podcasts.com. It's free. You can go

1:19:13

listen to their podcast. upbuild.com. It's free. You

1:19:15

can go listen to their podcasts. Upbuilds. Upbuild.

1:19:18

It's free. It's free. It's very well. It's

1:19:20

free. It's very well. It's free. It's very

1:19:22

well. It's free. It's very well. It's free.

1:19:24

It's free. It's very well. It's free. It's

1:19:26

very well. It's free. It's free. It's very

1:19:28

well. It's free. It's very well. It's free.

1:19:31

It's very well. It's free. It's free. It's

1:19:33

very well. It's very well So I would

1:19:35

suggest them. What do you think is the

1:19:37

number one mistake that people make when trying

1:19:39

to identify and pursue their dream career? Oh,

1:19:41

OK. It's a big one. It's a big

1:19:44

mistake. And that is, they look at what

1:19:46

the world has to offer, and they try

1:19:48

to fit themselves into that mold. OK. There's

1:19:50

a lot of jobs in cybersecurity. And that's

1:19:52

growing. And I'm going to go sort of

1:19:54

like, squeeze myself into whatever. I'm going to

1:19:57

get that education. And I'm going to get

1:19:59

that education. and see what the world has

1:20:01

for you. So I think that the biggest

1:20:03

mistake, frankly, is that people go out finding

1:20:05

their dream job back assward. And the first thing

1:20:07

to you got to know is who you are, what

1:20:09

are your values, what are your aptitudes, what

1:20:11

are your interests, what's at the center of

1:20:13

that, and then what are the jobs that

1:20:16

match that instead of the other way around?

1:20:18

Can you leave us with just

1:20:20

one homework assignment, something that we

1:20:22

can all do immediately to push

1:20:24

us in the right direction in

1:20:26

terms of our authentic life and

1:20:28

our authentic career? I'm gonna say

1:20:30

go back to those three questions

1:20:32

I asked earlier. What do you

1:20:34

want people to say about you

1:20:36

when you're not in the room?

1:20:38

What do you want people to

1:20:40

say about you when you're not in

1:20:42

the room? What did you love about

1:20:45

your childhood and what did you hate?

1:20:47

We never do it because we edit ourselves

1:20:49

constantly and we're like, you know, we'll start

1:20:51

to imagine our dream of a life and

1:20:53

then immediately we start coming in with the

1:20:56

pen and editing out things we think are

1:20:58

not possible. And I would say one thing

1:21:00

the world does not invite us to do

1:21:02

and we always sort of criticize people who

1:21:04

do it is I would honestly close my

1:21:06

eyes and I would let myself imagine the

1:21:08

life I want in 25 years if everything worked

1:21:10

out. Like just stop being a naysayer, stop

1:21:13

being your mother, stop being the world. I'm

1:21:15

just going to pretend it all

1:21:17

happened for me and actually jot down

1:21:19

that vision you see. And in fact,

1:21:21

walk yourself through the day, I wake up,

1:21:24

I'm an ex kind of house, so and so

1:21:26

is next to me or not. Okay, I've got

1:21:28

ex-children or not. I get an ex-car

1:21:30

and I drive to ex-place or not

1:21:32

or I go out and I lay

1:21:34

on the beach or I continue ladling

1:21:36

out food at a refugee camp in

1:21:38

Somalia, whatever. Imagine that day 25 years

1:21:41

from now, if you got everything you

1:21:43

wanted. We never let ourselves do it. And that

1:21:45

is our dream of a life, and that is

1:21:47

where we'll actually identify our values. We won't

1:21:49

know our aptitudes from this, unfortunately, but we'll

1:21:51

kind of figure out our interests if we

1:21:54

let ourselves really do it freely. And you

1:21:56

have to invite yourself into it and be aware

1:21:58

that you're going to try to stop. yourself 30

1:22:00

times doing it, but just do it. Just

1:22:02

try it. And you're going to have some

1:22:04

information about yourself you need to know. Do

1:22:06

we talk about how to figure out what

1:22:09

your aptitudes are? I feel like we talked

1:22:11

about how to figure out what your personality

1:22:13

is. I feel like we talked about how

1:22:15

to figure out what your personality was. Yeah,

1:22:17

that's part of aptitudes. If you're part of

1:22:19

aptitudes. Yeah, that's part of aptitudes. For your

1:22:21

aptitudes, if you're. Yeah, that's part of aptitudes.

1:22:24

For your aptitudes, for your aptitudes. For your

1:22:26

aptitudes, if. For your aptitudes, if you, if

1:22:28

you, if you, if you're, if you're, if

1:22:30

you're, if you're, if you're, if you're, if

1:22:32

you're, if you're, if you're, if you're, just

1:22:34

try. There's a test online. I highly recommend

1:22:36

it. Unfortunately, it's a little pricey. It's $39.

1:22:39

It's called You Science, You science.com. And there's

1:22:41

a 87-minute test. And it tests your big

1:22:43

aptitudes. It tells you how you are on

1:22:45

idea generation. It tells you how you are

1:22:47

on project planning. It tells you how you

1:22:49

are on project planning. It tells you how

1:22:51

you are on whether you're a generalist or

1:22:54

a specialist. This is hugely important. or what

1:22:56

your values are and what your interests are.

1:22:58

So it may tell you you should be

1:23:00

a geophysicist and you're like, I don't know,

1:23:02

I've never looked at a rock that I'm

1:23:04

interested in. You can take that or leave

1:23:06

that, but to get this data on what

1:23:09

your actual aptitudes are, I know it's expensive,

1:23:11

but it's money well spent. So I highly

1:23:13

recommend you science.com. I've no skin in this

1:23:15

game whatsoever, I don't know them. My students

1:23:17

take that test. Okay. Can you tell us

1:23:19

a little bit in your own words about

1:23:21

your amazing book? All of the information in

1:23:24

here, we just literally skim the surface of

1:23:26

the amount of information that you've included in

1:23:28

this book, and then anything else that you

1:23:30

want to highlight. Okay, so becoming you is

1:23:32

the book that I wrote, it's based on

1:23:34

my class, and it's the book that I

1:23:36

wrote, it's based on my class, in NYU.

1:23:38

Okay, so becoming you is the book that

1:23:41

I wrote, it's based on my class, in

1:23:43

NYU, it's, it's, is the book that you

1:23:45

want to highlight. Okay, I was the book

1:23:47

that you want to highlight. Okay. Okay, I

1:23:49

was the book that you want to highlight.

1:23:51

Okay, I was the book that you want

1:23:53

to highlight. Okay, okay. Okay, I was the

1:23:56

book that you want to highlight. Okay, okay.

1:23:58

Okay, okay. Okay, okay. Okay, okay. Okay, okay.

1:24:00

Okay, okay. Okay, okay. Okay, so, okay. Okay,

1:24:02

is the book, is the book You know,

1:24:04

I had this whole story in my head

1:24:06

and I actually have a daughter who's an

1:24:08

artist and she's usually very loosey-goosey about life.

1:24:11

She's a beautiful person who makes beautiful ceramics

1:24:13

and she's not the professional world has been

1:24:15

of no interest to her except for her

1:24:17

pottery business. And one day we were taking

1:24:19

a walk and my publisher was saying to

1:24:21

me I need you to write this book,

1:24:23

Susie, about your methodology. It's a phenomenon and

1:24:26

all this other stuff. It will help people.

1:24:28

And I was complaining to her that my

1:24:30

publisher was trying to get me to write

1:24:32

the book, and she stopped, and she grabbed,

1:24:34

and she grabbed me by the arm, and

1:24:36

she said, Mom, you have to write this

1:24:38

book. And she said, Mom, you have to

1:24:41

write this book. And I said, Mom, you

1:24:43

have to write this book. And I said,

1:24:45

Mom, you have to write this. It's like

1:24:47

a gift, you. If no one ever meets

1:24:49

me or they can't get to NYU or

1:24:51

they can't take one of my intentsives or

1:24:53

they live in Madagascar, that they can take

1:24:56

this book and they can get closer to

1:24:58

really knowing what their purpose is and why.

1:25:00

And so that's why I put it all

1:25:02

in the book. It's filled with stories. I

1:25:04

mean, I tell a lot of stories about

1:25:06

myself and my life and people who've gone

1:25:08

through this process, so I wanted to make

1:25:11

it an enjoyable read, so I hope I

1:25:13

did. It was a hugely enjoyable read and

1:25:15

just again so many actionable things to do

1:25:17

like you really spell out the process and

1:25:19

if your life is not changed at the

1:25:21

end of reading it and doing the exercises

1:25:23

I'd be very surprised. Thanks Liz. Thanks. Thank

1:25:26

you so much for taking the time to

1:25:28

share all of your wisdom. This has been

1:25:30

incredibly enjoyable. I love being with you. Thanks.

1:25:32

Unfortunately that is all for this episode of

1:25:34

the Liz Moody podcast. If you have got

1:25:36

anyone in your life that isn't in their

1:25:38

dream career or that needs to hear this

1:25:40

information, Please share a link to this episode

1:25:43

with them. It'll help them. And you guys

1:25:45

can talk about it and you can process

1:25:47

all of this together, which makes it so

1:25:49

much more likely to have it sink in

1:25:51

and change your life. Make sure that you

1:25:53

are following the Liz Moody podcast and Apple

1:25:55

podcast on Spotify or on YouTube because we

1:25:58

have got an episode coming up where we're

1:26:00

going to have Dr. Emily Nagoski, and she

1:26:02

is going to solve all of your... deepest,

1:26:04

most embarrassing, maybe most shameful, your trickiest questions

1:26:06

about sex. It's going to be such a

1:26:08

good conversation. And then I have another episode

1:26:10

coming up with the single rule that transformed

1:26:13

my sense of self-love, my relationships, my career.

1:26:15

a game changer. Following the podcast means that

1:26:17

the episodes will show up right in your

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1:26:28

these things. You'll never have to miss out

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on one. So follow the podcast and also

1:26:32

you can now watch full video episodes on

1:26:34

YouTube and on Spotify too. Also we are

1:26:36

able to bring you this show completely for

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free because of the brands that you heard

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to Lizmootie.substock.com to send it for our newsletter,

1:26:53

The Takeaway, where you'll get key action steps

1:26:55

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You can also come hang out on Instagram.

1:27:00

I am at Liz Moody. I share tons

1:27:02

of inspiring and always very real content and

1:27:04

exactly how I am using everything that we

1:27:06

learn on the podcast in my real life.

1:27:08

Okay, I love you. I'm very excited for

1:27:10

you to maybe get your dream career to

1:27:13

Start getting even closer to the career and

1:27:15

the life that you so deserve. I am

1:27:17

rooting for you, and I will see you

1:27:19

on the next episode of the Liz Moody

1:27:21

podcast. Oh, just one more thing. It's the

1:27:23

legal language. This podcast is presented solely for

1:27:25

educational and entertainment purposes. It is not intended

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