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50% off your first order

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plus free shipping. Now, time

2:24

for the show. It

2:31

is Monday, April 14th, 2025.

2:33

My name is Emma

2:35

Bigelinden for Sam Cedar,

2:37

and this is the

2:39

five-time award-winning majority report.

2:42

We are broadcasting

2:44

live steps from the

2:46

industrially ravaged Gowanus Canal

2:49

in the heartland of

2:51

America, downtown Brooklyn,

2:53

USA. On the program

2:56

today, Roberto Lovato. will

2:58

be with us to talk

3:00

about El Salvador and Buchale

3:02

since he's visiting the

3:04

White House they and

3:07

the United States relationship

3:09

with El Salvador. Also

3:12

on the program after

3:14

exempting electronics and semiconductors

3:16

from tariffs, days later,

3:18

Trump reverses. Probably because

3:21

he lost and everyone

3:23

is saying that he

3:25

lost. It hasn't stopped

3:28

China from responding, suspending

3:30

exports of rare minerals

3:32

and magnets needed for

3:35

cars and aerospace. An

3:37

overwhelming majority of them are

3:39

made in China. Trump is

3:42

causing European tourism to fall

3:44

by more than 17% last

3:46

month compared to that month

3:48

a year ago. U.S. tourism

3:51

is a nearly $3 trillion

3:53

industry. far-right

3:55

self-described dictator of El

3:58

Salvador Bukele. As I

4:00

mentioned, visits the White

4:02

House today. Trump seemingly

4:04

defies a Supreme Court

4:06

order to bring back

4:08

Kilmar Garcia. Rubio says,

4:11

10 more people were sent

4:13

to Buchelli's prison camps,

4:15

still no due process,

4:17

and his own State

4:19

Department sends an internal

4:21

memo telling their bosses

4:24

that they have no

4:26

authority to deport Tuftsuent.

4:30

The Department of

4:32

Homeland Security has been

4:34

emailing legal immigrants

4:36

telling them to

4:38

self-deport. DHS staffers are

4:41

also reportedly receiving lie

4:43

detector tests to root out

4:45

leakers. Trump said CBS should

4:48

pay a big price for

4:50

airing critical stories about his

4:53

Ukraine and Greenland policies.

4:55

Bernie and AOC hold massive

4:57

huge. rallies in LA over

4:59

the weekend. The LA one

5:01

was their biggest ever, Bernie's

5:03

biggest ever. Wired reports that

5:06

the Social Security Administration is

5:08

moving some of their communications

5:11

to Twitter. You know, the

5:13

website your grandma's always

5:15

on. Israel bombed the

5:17

last functioning hospital in

5:19

Gaza City, destroying many

5:21

parts of it. And lastly,

5:24

a man has been charged.

5:26

in connection with arson at

5:29

the Pennsylvania's Pennsylvania Governor's House,

5:31

unclear what the motive is. All

5:33

this and more on today's majority

5:36

report. It's a majority report

5:38

Monday and a majority report

5:40

week. Sam is off on

5:42

vacation this week, so you're

5:45

stuck with me all week, but also

5:47

Russ, also Matt, and our wonderful

5:50

guests coming up this week.

5:52

What's up, guys? What's up, guys?

5:54

Another another week of insane news

5:56

and it's just it's difficult to

5:58

keep up over the weekend.

6:00

Trump had announced some

6:03

exemptions to tariffs and

6:05

now is coming out

6:07

this morning and the

6:09

market's kind of rebounded. Now

6:11

is coming out this morning

6:13

and saying, maybe not.

6:15

China is not backing

6:17

down. They suspended in

6:19

response to this exports

6:21

of critical rare minerals

6:24

and magnets. These specific

6:26

rare minerals are refined.

6:29

90% of the magnets are produced

6:31

in China of the ones that

6:33

are being suspended here. And this

6:35

is going to piss off defense

6:37

contractors because they're

6:39

needed to create weapons.

6:42

And also automakers, it's a

6:44

difficult dance because you have the

6:46

UAW supportive of the tariffs because,

6:48

you know, we would love, of

6:50

all of the industries that are

6:53

affected by tariffs, we maybe

6:55

are closest to being able

6:57

to being able to manufacture

6:59

some of these things

7:02

domestically in the auto industry,

7:04

but it still is

7:06

insufficient because these magnets

7:09

aren't just for EVs.

7:11

They're also necessary and

7:13

gasoline powered cars for

7:15

some of the functions

7:18

like steering. So this is

7:20

going to really hurt. It's

7:22

going to really hurt unless

7:24

this ends quickly, but Trump

7:26

seems to be burned by

7:28

the fact that everyone is

7:30

saying that he lost this

7:32

trade war. And it seems

7:34

like Trump was trying

7:36

to almost purposefully tank the

7:39

market a bit so that

7:41

he could lower interest rates

7:43

and bully the Fed into

7:45

doing it himself, which is

7:47

one of the only independent,

7:49

the only... last like independent

7:51

part of our financial system right the

7:54

Fed and Jerome Powell is doing what

7:56

they think is best we don't always

7:58

agree with that but Trump is to

8:00

get it to Ben to his will and

8:02

force people maybe potentially

8:04

some insecurity so people go

8:06

and buy US Treasury bonds

8:08

which is what happens when

8:10

the stock market tanks because

8:12

people are investors are looking

8:14

for a safer bet. That's not what

8:17

that's not what happened. Japan started

8:19

selling off US Treasury bonds so

8:21

it was a sell-off because Trump

8:24

took for granted that people

8:26

would view the US economy as

8:28

stable by default. And that's not

8:30

what happened. There was a

8:32

surge in treasury yields and

8:35

people started to panic

8:37

basically. So we're in this situation

8:40

now where there's every other day

8:42

a contradicting policy

8:44

and even people in

8:46

the administration can't seem

8:48

to keep up. Because at first

8:51

tariffs were negotiation tactics, but actually

8:53

just kidding their ways to generate

8:55

revenue. but actually just kidding their

8:57

ways for world leaders to come

9:00

and kiss Donald Trump's ass I

9:02

mean who knows what they are

9:04

that changes on the day-to-day basis.

9:06

And the ostensible reason of we want

9:09

to reassure manufacturing is obviously a joke

9:11

because anyone that's planning a factory will

9:13

be a bit upset that they were

9:15

planning it they say took out a

9:17

loan for it when the tariffs were

9:19

high and then Trump said actually never

9:22

mind there's exceptions for this thing that

9:24

you were just going to reshore onto

9:26

American soil. Even the insecurity

9:28

that he's creating chills

9:30

manufacturing without coherent policy,

9:32

it means that people aren't going

9:34

to take the time and the

9:36

years and money to invest in

9:38

America because they don't know if

9:40

this mad king is going to

9:43

change a trade policy and economic

9:45

policy within 48 hours. And they

9:47

wouldn't to begin with. I mean,

9:49

Biden tried this to just incentivize

9:51

and de-risk investment. That's not enough.

9:53

Actually you need to consciously... uh...

9:55

invest in certain sectors that you

9:57

want to grow and this sort

9:59

of thing where you expect slight changes

10:01

in tariffs to affect it all, it's

10:03

obviously a joke. It's again, just to

10:06

get people to negotiate with Trump and

10:08

also to isolate China. And China actually

10:10

very much strengthens its position during

10:12

this period, which was as predictable

10:14

as anything if you have an

10:16

adult in the room and not

10:18

a guy like Peter Navarro who

10:20

is... one of the most obvious

10:23

cranks in the world. We're talking

10:25

like not even a step up

10:27

from Sydney Powell coming up with

10:29

these bizarre AI-generated

10:31

trade deficit mathematical equations

10:33

that it's even too

10:36

generous to call the

10:38

mathematical equation given how faulty

10:40

it is. But yesterday on

10:42

the Sunday shows Trump sends

10:44

out his lackeys to sell to

10:47

the American public what they're

10:49

doing. And these shows are

10:51

at the same time. Here's

10:53

Howard Lutnik on ABC

10:55

yesterday morning saying, okay,

10:57

don't worry folks, there will be

11:00

exemptions for certain

11:02

products like phones,

11:05

computers, semiconductors, pharmaceuticals.

11:10

Well, if you remember over the

11:12

past couple of months, President Trump

11:14

has called out pharmaceuticals and semiconductors

11:16

and auto, as he called them,

11:19

sector tariffs. And those are not

11:21

available for negotiation. They are just...

11:23

going to be part of making

11:25

sure we reassure the core national

11:28

security items that need to be

11:30

made in this country. We need

11:32

to make medicine in this country.

11:34

We learned it during COVID. We

11:36

need to make it in this

11:39

country. We need to make it

11:41

in this country. We need to make

11:43

semiconductors. Because if we don't own

11:45

semiconductors here. I'm so sorry. This

11:47

is agreed. You agree with progressives

11:49

on this front. That's why

11:51

first, before you do any

11:53

kinds of tariffs. Terrace for

11:56

specific industries would be appropriate,

11:58

but you would need five. six years

12:00

of heavily subsidized investment in

12:03

those industries. And then that

12:05

may not even be enough, but

12:08

you would need to first develop

12:10

the capacity to make all of

12:12

these products at scale, and then

12:14

you hit the imported goods with

12:17

the tariffs. We do not have

12:19

that capacity, especially on what he

12:21

just listed, semiconductors. You know what

12:24

Bill? Was there to target and

12:26

engender domestic manufacturing of semiconductors

12:28

the chips act? The chips

12:30

act it's in the acronym Although obviously also

12:32

China competition is a part of

12:35

that it was recognized by the

12:37

Biden administration as a problem and

12:39

we needed to onshore that manufacturing

12:41

domestically You know what the Trump

12:44

administration is doing? They fired all of

12:46

the probationary employees that were hired

12:48

and they're probationary because they're new

12:50

hires To implement the

12:53

CHIPS Act, to create the

12:55

domestic manufacturing capacity for semiconductors,

12:57

Trump fired all of them.

13:00

So there's no ability to do

13:02

what Lutnik says terrorists are

13:04

designed to do. All

13:07

virtually all semiconductors are made

13:09

now in Taiwan and they're

13:11

finished in China It's important

13:13

that we reassure them and

13:15

so the president is going

13:17

to come out with his

13:19

policies On semiconductors and pharmaceuticals.

13:21

They're going to be outside

13:23

the reciprocal tariffs and he

13:25

was just making sure everyone

13:27

understood that all of these

13:29

products are outside the reciprocal

13:31

tariffs and they're going to

13:33

have their own Separate way

13:35

of being considered Exemption not

13:37

about I mean the

13:39

the notice that went

13:41

out Friday night saying

13:43

that electronics a wide

13:45

range of electronics including

13:47

smartphones including components used

13:49

to make Microships that

13:51

these are now exempt

13:53

from the reciprocal tariffs

13:55

why that move? Well Remember those

13:58

products are going to part

14:00

of the semiconductor sector sectoral tariffs

14:02

which are coming. So you're going

14:04

to see this week there'll be

14:06

a register in the federal registry

14:08

there'll be a notice put out

14:11

that is different types of work.

14:13

So we're going to do that.

14:15

We did that in autos. The

14:17

president's going to do it for

14:19

pharmaceuticals. I think it is going

14:21

to do it for semiconductors. So

14:23

all those products are going to

14:25

come under semiconductors. And they're going

14:27

to have a special focus type

14:30

of tariff to make sure that those

14:32

products get re-shored. We need to have

14:34

semiconductors. We need to have chips. And

14:36

we need to have flat panels. We

14:38

need to have these things made in

14:41

America. for us so what he's doing

14:43

is he's saying they're exempt from the

14:45

reciprocal tariffs but oh my god all

14:47

right we get it we get it like

14:49

I so they're not exempt so wait the

14:51

announcement was that they were exempt but

14:53

no they're not exempt there are other

14:55

tariffs in the future they're gonna be

14:58

not exempt don't worry we didn't take

15:00

an L on this Donald Trump didn't

15:02

realize that we don't have the ability

15:04

to do to do this and this

15:06

would his defense contractor buddies, they want

15:08

bombs over to Israel right now and

15:10

they're not going to be very happy

15:13

with the idea that this kicks off

15:15

a trade war where China can stop

15:17

the exporting of the materials that

15:19

they need for their weapons

15:22

technology and for aerospace. Okay,

15:24

so that's what he's saying, that

15:26

yes, there are exemptions Trump announced

15:28

on Friday, but don't worry they

15:31

won't actually be exempt. Those other

15:33

tariffs are coming. That show is... is airing,

15:36

Lutnik, Commerce Secretary, on

15:38

ABC. Over on NBC, you

15:40

have Peter Navarro, the crank

15:42

responsible for the formula,

15:44

on, with Meet the Press, saying

15:47

some contradictory things to the

15:49

actually, to the Commerce Secretary. I

15:51

want to talk about the

15:53

status of those potential pending deals,

15:56

but first, look, you're talking

15:58

about the fact. that the

16:00

White House has a strategy. The

16:02

Commerce Secretary, the Treasury Secretary, the

16:05

President himself said there would not

16:07

be exclusions and yet just yesterday

16:09

there were exclusions. So is there

16:11

in fact a plan or is

16:13

the President making this up as

16:15

he goes away? So the policy

16:17

is no exemptions, no exclusions, the

16:19

policy is in effect. There were

16:22

not exclusions. Let me explain. This

16:24

is really good for the American

16:26

people to understand. There's like different

16:28

ways to go about... fairness for

16:30

the American people. We started with

16:32

the fentanyl border. tariffs. That's an

16:34

IEPA, the International Emergency Economic Powers

16:36

Act. And we had a crisis

16:38

at the border. We continued to

16:41

see people die. By the time

16:43

this shows over another couple of

16:45

Americans, we'll be dead from fentanyl,

16:47

just this short period of time.

16:49

We did that. So... I just

16:51

quite pause. We just have to

16:53

just... I think that the overwhelming

16:55

majority of fentanyl comes through legal

16:57

ports of entry and is... completely

17:00

false. Also overdose deaths went

17:02

down under Biden because in

17:04

part the administration prioritized sending

17:07

out drugs that would help with

17:09

overdose deaths and some harm

17:11

reduction policies on the federal level.

17:13

Not enough, but still. It

17:15

is also used for the trade

17:18

deficit, but there's also a really

17:20

important thing, Kristen. This deals with

17:22

the chips issue you're talking about.

17:24

That's what we call the Section

17:26

232 issue, which is when we

17:29

have a flood of imports being

17:31

dumped into certain key strategic sectors,

17:33

steel, aluminum, chips, pharmaceuticals, as we

17:35

learned during COVID, we have to

17:37

take specific action. So what we're

17:40

doing... with chips. The problem, interestingly

17:42

for chips, because this is very

17:44

complex stuff, is that we don't

17:46

buy a lot of chips, like in

17:48

bags, we buy them in products. So

17:50

what Secretary of Commerce, Howard Lutnik, is

17:52

going to do, is doing it as

17:55

we speak, is an investigation of the

17:57

chips supply chain. The goal of stability

17:59

and resilience. You will see actions

18:01

taken based on those investigations

18:03

on copper. We've already have

18:05

steel in aluminum. We already

18:07

have autos. There will be

18:09

pharmaceuticals. And there will be

18:11

chips. And the important thing

18:13

is there's three kinds. There's

18:16

the high-end chips, which is

18:18

the AI future. OK, we've

18:20

got to get control of

18:22

that. And then there's everything

18:24

else that fuels are autos and

18:26

autos and everything else. Fair

18:28

enough. praying fair enough what is

18:30

she talking about can we put

18:32

the ticker back up of what what

18:35

Lutnik was saying just just the

18:37

it says now exempt smartphones other

18:39

electronics now exempt from tariffs

18:41

at the same time that

18:43

Navarro was saying that I

18:46

mean there the level of

18:48

incompetence that we're talking about

18:50

here cannot be overstated the amount

18:53

of insecurity that they are

18:55

creating day by day in

18:57

the economy is irreparable regardless

18:59

of whether or not these

19:01

tariffs go into effect. And I

19:03

love how they're playing this

19:06

game of like, exemptions

19:08

are different from exclusions,

19:10

which are different from

19:12

exceptions, exemptions, exceptions. I

19:14

can't even keep track of

19:17

it. But there's no policy

19:19

here. Everybody's just following what

19:21

Donald Trump says on the

19:24

day-to-day basis. What it means

19:26

is not good things for

19:28

economic forecast for the next

19:30

few months at least. It's

19:33

the height of irrationality and

19:35

also our accusations about drug

19:37

trafficking are... like Nazi levelized

19:39

that our projection because of

19:41

America's complicity in particular Southeast

19:43

Asia the drug trade there

19:45

the CIA like it's it's

19:48

crazy that we foreground that

19:50

even with a Canada like

19:52

it's fentanyl we just deploy

19:54

this thing that right purports

19:56

to be a civilization issue

19:58

which again like Lots of

20:00

people's lives have been destroyed through

20:02

these things. And we protect the

20:04

actual mercers and all those people

20:07

that are responsible for it and

20:09

then use it as a foreign

20:11

policy bludgeon. It's disgusting. Do

20:13

we remember that Peter Navarro

20:15

was like just in prison? For

20:17

coup stuff. For, for, yeah, election

20:19

denial and. You know, he showed his

20:21

loyalty, that's why. He showed me he's

20:24

a good guy, he's willing to take

20:26

some pain, like I'm trying to inflict

20:28

on the rest of the country, because

20:30

he served for contempt, backing up the

20:32

dear leader. But this guy's a lunatic,

20:34

and he was considered a lunatic back

20:36

in the first Trump era when he

20:38

was encouraging Trump to go after, to

20:41

embrace hydroxychlor chloroquine.

20:43

and injecting bleach. All of that stuff's

20:45

from that guy. Can I just say

20:48

like those, the whole idea that we

20:50

need to reshore chips or whatever, it's

20:52

not because he wants us to have

20:54

good chip manufacturing jobs at a fabricator,

20:56

it's because they want to go to

20:58

war with China and still have

21:01

computer chips. Oh, jobs, they are

21:03

firing the federal workforce and openly

21:05

saying it's because they want to

21:07

funnel people back into the private

21:10

sector, which means taking, creating more

21:12

unemployment to... depress wages and

21:14

depress the labor market. That's

21:16

their stated goal. And they're

21:18

even saying that they're going

21:21

to do, don't worry, we'll

21:23

create other jobs. You can go

21:25

back to coal mining while we

21:27

let the robots do this stuff.

21:29

And pair that with the child

21:31

labor laws in right-wing states. You

21:33

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25:44

We are back and we are joined

25:47

now by Roberto Lovato, a

25:49

Salvadoran American writer, assistant professor of

25:51

English at the University of

25:53

Nevada Las Vegas. He's the author

25:55

of the book Unforgetting a

25:57

memoir of a family migration. and

26:00

Revolution in the Americas. Roberto,

26:02

thanks so much for coming

26:04

on the show today. Oh, real pleasure to

26:06

be with you, Emma. Great, great

26:09

to hear from you. We can

26:11

hear him all right. Okay, awesome.

26:13

My headphones are a little weird,

26:15

so apologies, Roberto. Before we talk

26:17

about Bouquetlet and his visit today,

26:19

I think it's helpful to give

26:21

some people a sense of El

26:24

Salvador's history with the United States,

26:26

Bouquetlet's place in it. You were

26:28

born in the United States, but

26:30

I know that your family's from

26:32

El Salvador and you've spent your

26:34

life working in... academia, journalism, but

26:36

also non-profits helping Salvadoran immigrants. So

26:39

it seems to me that you've

26:41

had a foot in both worlds.

26:43

Can you tell us a little

26:46

bit more about your background and

26:48

how it informs your work? Yeah. I

26:50

was born in San Francisco's

26:52

Mission District, a home

26:54

to Carlos Santana, which is, and

26:56

I kind of identified as a

26:58

child of the 70s when You know,

27:01

Santana's music reflects

27:03

the way that all these different

27:05

currents of consciousness, black

27:08

power, brown power, gay power,

27:10

women's power, and the power of

27:12

social movements, especially in

27:14

Central America, were kind

27:17

of coming together. I grew

27:19

up in that environment and in

27:21

pre- trump Silicon Valley. So

27:24

I kind of also kind of

27:26

saw the rise of techno-fascism

27:28

in the Bay Area. And so as a

27:30

kid, I was in a click again and

27:33

had to get out of that and

27:35

joined a right wing evangelical

27:37

church that today would have made me

27:40

an evangelical fascist. But

27:42

I learned to be a militant

27:44

in the church and left it and

27:47

then eventually ended up

27:49

in El Salvador trying to

27:51

find myself and find

27:53

myself in the middle of a war,

27:55

which was affecting my family.

27:58

and friends of my family. and I

28:00

started doing kind of liberal

28:03

service work with refugee groups

28:05

in San Francisco and then

28:08

I went to El Salvador

28:10

and work with refugee groups

28:12

there and saw things that

28:15

no human beings should see

28:17

done to children, elderly and

28:20

others and I decided that

28:22

just doing kind of liberal

28:25

service work was insufficient to

28:27

the moment and made this

28:30

difficult. decision to join the

28:32

FML and guerrillas. And, you

28:34

know, I'm still paying the

28:37

price psychologically for that and

28:39

I've also learned a great

28:42

deal. And so I then

28:44

became a writer journalist and

28:47

eventually professor now here at

28:49

UNOV and am astounded at

28:51

how the circuits of violence

28:54

and fascistic, neo-fascistic and techno-fascistic

28:56

kind of politics have turned

28:59

El Salvador, this tiny country

29:01

that people didn't even know

29:04

when I was a kid,

29:06

into a global center of

29:08

neo-fascist theory and practice. Right.

29:11

And let's trace that history

29:13

a little bit. And even

29:16

we can start with your

29:18

upbringing and how you say

29:21

you were in a click.

29:23

And right now we're seeing

29:25

the Trump administration attempt to

29:28

justify its fascism by painting

29:30

migrants as criminals. We hear

29:33

a lot about Trinidad, which

29:35

is associated with Venezuela, and

29:38

MS-13, which is associated with

29:40

El Salvador. Can you speak

29:42

a little bit about how

29:45

you got... how you found

29:47

connection in the click as

29:50

you describe it and how

29:52

gang ties very loosely described

29:55

are being used against people

29:57

from El Salvador to really

29:59

demonize them, frankly. Yeah, one

30:02

of the things I do

30:04

in my book is show

30:07

the human conditions that create

30:09

gangs and gang members. I

30:12

was a part of a

30:14

small click in San Francisco,

30:16

nothing like the really hardcore

30:19

gangs, either here in the

30:21

US like the Mexican Mafia

30:24

and other gangs or... Crips

30:26

and Bloods and MS-13 and

30:29

18th Street in El Salvador,

30:31

which are structures based on

30:33

US-style gangs. And so I

30:36

found friendship and community in

30:38

a little click that was,

30:41

you know, not mostly nonviolent

30:43

except at different moments. We

30:46

were involved in drugs and

30:48

other stuff, but we were

30:50

not the hardened heavy weapon-wielding

30:53

gangs of today. And

30:56

so I started working

30:58

with gangs in the

31:00

90s in LA where

31:02

the gangs were born.

31:04

MS-13 and 18th Street.

31:06

And you know, 13

31:08

for example, is the

31:11

letter M, is the

31:13

number of the letter

31:15

M that the Salvadoran

31:17

gangs, who were being,

31:19

before they were gangs,

31:21

they were being bullied

31:23

and beaten by larger.

31:25

mostly black gangs in

31:28

South LA and decided

31:30

to start arming themselves

31:32

with machetes. And then

31:34

journalists like Lisa Ling

31:36

started noticing that these

31:38

gangs had machetes instead

31:40

of guns and started

31:42

labeling them as extremely

31:45

violent. And then the

31:47

gangs took on, you

31:49

know, the more familiar

31:51

tattooed faces, tattooed bodies.

31:53

and more heavily armed

31:55

gang structures and culture

31:57

that we know today.

32:00

And so I've watched as

32:02

the US local and then

32:05

federal governments have started taking

32:07

interest in these gangs and

32:09

the project has been bipartisan

32:12

Democrat and Republican. They both

32:14

escalated and used the gangs

32:16

to legitimate initially local policing

32:19

of young people. Now you're

32:21

seeing it become this. Terrorists,

32:23

federalized. That, you know, has,

32:26

you know, Lisa Link started

32:28

calling MS-13 the most dangerous

32:30

gang in the world, even

32:33

though you never have any

32:35

statistical basis to prove any

32:37

gang is the most violent

32:40

in the world. It's ridiculous

32:42

fact. I mean, when you

32:44

look at, in 2019, when

32:47

Trump started using the word

32:49

terrorist, has applied to Salvadoran

32:51

gangs. And then as Buchella

32:54

was elected that same year,

32:56

he starts using the term

32:58

aggressively. And you see how,

33:01

you know, the terrorist war

33:03

is being thrown around. I

33:05

started interviewing cops, police in

33:08

San Francisco and other cities

33:10

and found out, for example,

33:12

that in 2019 you had

33:15

three white men wielding semi-automatic

33:17

weapons. These three white men

33:19

killed more people in 2019

33:22

than the allegedly 10,000 MS-13

33:24

and 18 street gang members

33:26

in the U.S. combined. So

33:29

let me repeat that. Three

33:31

white men with semi-automatic weapons

33:33

killed more people in 2019

33:36

than all of the 10,000

33:38

MS-13 and 18- and 18-S-13

33:40

and all of the 10,000

33:43

MS-13 and 18- and 18-

33:45

and 18-S-13 and 18- and

33:47

18-18- and 18-S-13- and 18-18-18-18-

33:50

and 18-18-18-18-18-18-18-18-19-18-18-18-18-18-18-18-18-18-18-18-18-18-19-18-18-18-19-18-19-18-19-19-19-19-19-19-19-19-19-19-19-19-19-19-19-19-19-19-19-19-19-19-19-19- Yeah. This is

33:52

the degree to which the

33:54

the meat a display you're

33:57

seeing in the meeting between

33:59

Bukella and Trump is entirely

34:01

political theater on steroids. Right.

34:04

And it's, you see, frankly,

34:06

like as you alluded to,

34:08

the, the explosion of tactics

34:11

that have been long used

34:13

against Latino and black. young

34:15

men in cities in this

34:18

country, gang databases, right, now

34:20

being basically used at the

34:22

federal level where if you're

34:25

somebody who's from a specific

34:27

area of Venezuela or if

34:29

you're from El Salvador and

34:32

you may like know somebody

34:34

or have been in a

34:36

community with somebody who's in

34:39

one of these gangs that

34:41

they trump up as not

34:43

to use upon as more

34:46

dangerous than they are, That

34:48

basically classifies you as a

34:50

part of some broader criminal

34:52

organization and now not just

34:55

criminal according to this far-right

34:57

Trump administration, terrorist. Yeah, the

34:59

franchise of criminalization and now

35:02

terrorization of different groups of

35:04

people is well underway and

35:06

it's the biggest, most dangerous

35:09

thing that's coming out of

35:11

the Trump-Bookella meeting. It's telling,

35:13

for example, that during the

35:16

meeting today, Bukelis said, and

35:18

I quote, sometimes they say

35:20

that we imprisoned thousands. I

35:23

like to say that we

35:25

actually liberated millions. And Trump

35:27

replies, who gave him that

35:30

line? Do you think I

35:32

can use that? And so

35:34

the meeting reflects, I think,

35:37

the expansion of the... local,

35:39

national, hemispheric, and global enterprise

35:41

of terrorization of increasing numbers

35:44

of groups. You start out

35:46

with the lowest hanging violent

35:48

fruit, like the gangs. And

35:51

they are violent, and some

35:53

of them are murderous. Most

35:55

of them are not. Most

35:58

of the gang members are

36:00

not murders. Okay, otherwise you

36:02

had over 10,000 deaths in

36:05

MS-13 in the US when

36:07

you have an insignificant number

36:09

statistically doing that. So you

36:12

start up with gangs, then

36:14

you extend it to immigrants

36:16

generally, as you see Stephen

36:19

Miller's career. you know, growing

36:21

and Trump's own election built

36:23

on that. And then you

36:26

extend it to, like in

36:28

El Salvador, journalists dealing with

36:30

gangs have been arrested, harassed,

36:33

persecuted, some even exiled. And

36:35

then you extend it to

36:37

activists. You start using the

36:40

word activist to talk about,

36:42

like you're talking about the

36:44

Palestinian activists in Colombia or

36:47

the Turkish woman. who was

36:49

arrested by, you know, at

36:51

Tufts. At Tufts. Yeah. Or

36:54

Mr. Abrego Garcia, who is

36:56

still in the second gulag

36:58

that Buchella just built. All

37:01

of these immigrants are now

37:03

illustrations of how the franchise

37:05

is extending, but make no

37:08

mistake, coming your way soon.

37:10

is the franchise of terrorists'

37:12

terrorization to those of us

37:15

that are citizens. It's already

37:17

afoot. Trump is already talking

37:19

about deporting citizens to El

37:22

Salvador, U.S. citizens. And so,

37:24

you know, this is where,

37:26

and this is where like

37:29

my experience first growing up

37:31

in pre-technical fascist Bay Area,

37:33

and then as a journalist

37:36

who's reported on electronic surveillance.

37:38

that you know as I

37:40

watch they go from the

37:43

analog industrial age to the

37:45

digital age surveillance has taught

37:47

me that people like Buchelle

37:50

are digital dictators. We're in

37:52

the age of digital dictatorship.

37:54

And the industrial-age structures of

37:57

like my former comrades in

37:59

the FMLN could not defeat

38:01

the digital dictatorship model of

38:04

Buchelle. And so we have

38:06

to upgrade our social movements

38:08

for the digital age. If

38:11

we are to fight. people

38:13

like Bukele who have benefited

38:15

from CIA-trained Venezuelan assets, who

38:18

became consultants to Bukele and

38:20

helped him manufacture this bizarre

38:22

and dangerous reality in Osavodor

38:25

that has large segments of

38:27

the popular supporting him in

38:29

their desperation. I really want

38:32

to get to that and

38:34

also your your astute comments

38:36

about the Bay Area and

38:39

what it's become because so

38:41

much what you're saying reminds

38:43

me of another Bay Area

38:46

journalist we had on Gilderan

38:48

and his study of of

38:50

these right-wing techno-fascists, but you

38:52

mentioned the CIA and its

38:55

current involvement in El Salvador's

38:57

politics, but It's, it did

38:59

not obviously begin there. The

39:02

United States sent billions of

39:04

dollars in military aid to

39:06

El Salvador's government in the

39:09

80s and it was a

39:11

violent repressive regime. If you

39:13

could give us a little

39:16

bit of that history as

39:18

we lead into explaining how

39:20

Buchelli fits into that history,

39:23

that would be great. El

39:25

Salvador was for the better

39:27

part of the 20th century,

39:30

one of the longest standing

39:32

military dictatorships. in the world

39:34

in the hemisphere and in

39:37

the world and It's always

39:39

it's always been as well

39:41

the one of a it

39:44

was the first place to

39:46

launch a an indigenous and

39:48

communist insurrection against dictatorship in

39:51

the Americas in 1932 when

39:53

approximately 32,000 I mean I'm

39:55

sorry in somewhere between 10

39:58

to 50,000 we still don't

40:00

know because the memory of

40:02

that has been erased in

40:05

official records. People were killed

40:07

by their own government and

40:09

so the the violence and

40:12

murder of El Salvador has

40:14

ingrained itself in the political

40:16

and even the social culture

40:19

of El Salvador, where for

40:21

example, dictatorship after the chair

40:23

was continually torturing, killing, disappearing,

40:26

exiling, and perpetrating other actions

40:28

to terrorize their way into

40:30

domination. In the 60s and

40:33

the 50s and 60s, you

40:35

start seeing the birth of

40:37

groups following Chegevara and Fidel

40:40

Castro and the Americas, but

40:42

that were revolutionary, mostly Marxist-Leninist,

40:44

revolutionary organizations, that eventually in

40:47

the 1980s became the Farabundo

40:49

Martin National Liberation Front. And

40:51

the FMLN waged a... a

40:54

successful war to dismantle the

40:56

military dictatorship. Sadly, and tragically,

40:58

the FMLN did not retool

41:01

itself for the digital age.

41:03

The analog age, Martis Leninist,

41:05

political military structures, did not

41:08

get upgraded for the world

41:10

that Silicon Valley created. And

41:12

so eventually you get in

41:15

the 90s. The right wing

41:17

fascist arena party instituting what's

41:19

known as Manodura, hard hand

41:22

politics in response to the

41:24

gang. problem that was growing

41:26

after the war because Bush

41:29

administration won Attorney General Bill

41:31

Barr started targeting gangs in

41:33

the U.S. making up until

41:36

that time the most the

41:38

largest ship in in FBI

41:40

resources from counter intelligence to

41:43

focus on gangs in the

41:45

19 in 1992. in response

41:47

to the LA riots. He

41:50

also began the practice of

41:52

deporting gang members to El

41:54

Salvador and then the rest

41:57

of Central America, a region

41:59

ripe with ruins and perfectly

42:01

fit to grow US-style, LA-style

42:04

gang structures like the Mexican

42:06

mafia. And so that's where

42:08

you get MS-13 and 18th

42:11

Street growing out of the

42:13

rotten soil of US policy.

42:15

in the US. Of deportations.

42:18

Of deportations and gang policing.

42:20

Right, right. So they fed

42:22

one another, right? And I

42:25

guess it created almost a

42:27

cycle of, you have, sorry

42:29

to cut you off here,

42:32

Roberto, but it's such a

42:34

key point. MS-13 originating in

42:36

the US prison system, informing

42:39

deportation policies, sending those folks

42:41

back to El Salvador. building

42:43

up their resources and creating,

42:45

almost strengthening them, but also

42:48

tying in U.S. kind of

42:50

gang policing into the immigration

42:52

carceral state. That's so key

42:55

in the 90s and into

42:57

the 2000s. Oh, you're right

42:59

on point, Emma. In addition

43:02

to that, you see the

43:04

kind of robocoposition of U.S.

43:06

policing and El Salvador's actual

43:09

influence on it. You had

43:11

people like a guy named

43:13

the late Maxman Warring who

43:16

a former US Pentagon colonel

43:18

who and strategist and, you

43:20

know, professor, distinguished professor in

43:23

the U.S. Army College, you

43:25

know, starting his career focusing

43:27

on insurgency and counterinsurgential Salvador.

43:30

After the war, men warring,

43:32

what does men warring do?

43:34

He goes and he starts

43:37

looking at gangs as the

43:39

new insurgency and starts framing

43:41

gangs. as insurgency, there's a

43:44

line that runs from that

43:46

kind of thinking to the

43:48

terrorist language you see being

43:51

used today. And then some

43:53

of the 50, some of

43:55

the many trainers that the

43:58

U.S. sent to El Salvador,

44:00

after the war ended in

44:02

1992, went where, to San

44:05

Francisco, L.A., New York, to

44:07

train U.S. police forces in

44:09

counterinsurgency. Okay, and then you

44:12

have, you know, over the

44:14

years, U.S. President, including Obama,

44:16

for example, heavily militarizing U.S.

44:19

police. So you have in

44:21

El Salvador an outside, a

44:23

tiny country with an outsized

44:26

contributions to the militarization of

44:28

the United States itself. And

44:30

even the militarization of the

44:33

police, that's an outgrowth of

44:35

the war on terror, which

44:37

is where we come full

44:40

circle of the classifying of

44:42

these folks as terrorists, because

44:44

we did the same thing

44:47

with the Mujahideen. We know

44:49

that the United States has

44:51

enabled far-right governments, not just

44:54

in South America, but also

44:56

in the Middle East. And

44:58

then that's come back to

45:01

bite us, because they become

45:03

the... Well, maybe not even

45:05

bydust, but it benefits these

45:08

people because then the military

45:10

budget increases and the surveillance

45:12

state increases and this is

45:15

a new group of people

45:17

to go after. It's just

45:19

a completely. incongruent policy if

45:22

you actually care about safety

45:24

and not just the carceral

45:26

state and making some money

45:29

like that that It creates

45:31

cycles of violence is really

45:33

what I'm saying. And it

45:36

doesn't seem like there's, we're

45:38

just, we're diving even further

45:40

into just a more digitized

45:43

version of that policy. You

45:45

write about it as a

45:47

digitized neoliberal 21st century fashista,

45:50

which is so well said.

45:52

Like, how does that look

45:54

when you bring in the

45:57

surveillance technology piece? Well, it

45:59

looks like things you see

46:01

in sci-fi movies. I don't.

46:04

You know, I don't teach

46:06

sci-fi writing, but I'm a

46:08

fan of sci-fi writing and

46:11

sci-fi movies, one of my

46:13

favorite being The Matrix. You're

46:15

living in the Matrix right

46:18

now, in many ways. As

46:20

far as the stimulation of

46:22

reality, what takes place in

46:25

the White House right now

46:27

between Bukele and Trump is

46:29

an entire stimulation when you

46:32

have this terrorist language being

46:34

applied indiscriminately and without any

46:36

basis in reality. When you're

46:39

going to start seeing it,

46:41

the brand of terror, the

46:43

terrorist brand into different groups

46:45

that are going to include

46:48

many of us, unless we

46:50

build something else that El

46:52

Salvador has to teach us,

46:55

which is our social movements,

46:57

that can, that are the

46:59

only things that are going

47:02

to be able to challenge

47:04

the rise of fascism. We're

47:06

not going to liberal-progressive our

47:09

way out of climate change,

47:11

technical fascism. We simply, it's

47:13

proven time and again in

47:16

the case of El Salvador.

47:18

immigration, for example, immigration by

47:20

the way, being the royal

47:23

road that leads to fascism,

47:25

not just in the US,

47:27

but throughout the world, right,

47:30

in Europe and even in

47:32

the Americas. In the case

47:34

of these, there's escalation of

47:37

this, this. this technical fashion

47:39

practice, we're going to have

47:41

to build the social movements

47:44

that kind of include elements

47:46

of liberal progressive. It has

47:48

to be a little more

47:51

radical into the left of

47:53

that if we're to get

47:55

through this. Yeah, absolutely. And

47:58

I guess that brings us

48:00

to more of a modern.

48:02

uh... context because buchela is

48:05

uh... re right now meeting

48:07

with dol trump as you

48:09

say apparently he has now

48:12

said he won't be uh...

48:14

releasing kilmar abrego garcia calling

48:16

him a terrorist uh... trumpers

48:19

openly flirting standing next to

48:21

him with the idea of

48:23

sending quote home groans to

48:26

the el Salvador prison uh...

48:28

what is this guy's background

48:30

you mentioned the FMLN, the

48:33

left-wing political party in El

48:35

Salvador, that he was initially

48:37

a part of, but he

48:40

was expelled from in 2017.

48:42

Can you talk about how

48:44

that happened, why that happened,

48:47

and how this guy cut

48:49

his teeth politically? Yeah, I

48:51

mean, sadly, some of the

48:54

leadership in the FMLN, my

48:56

former comrades, got corrupted it

48:58

by power and money. And,

49:01

you know, they embraced and

49:03

couldn't see the danger of

49:05

somebody, a rich boy, technologically

49:08

sophisticated, rich boy named Naibu

49:10

Kelle. And he was not

49:12

in any way a part

49:15

of the history of the

49:17

FMLinda, what I would call

49:19

the heroic history of the

49:22

FMLN prior to becoming. the

49:24

dominant political force, you know,

49:26

Salvador in the 2000s. And

49:29

so they, there was a

49:31

parting ways between Bukela and

49:33

the FMLN when Bukela was

49:36

mayor, and Bukela went on.

49:38

to establish a political party

49:40

known as Nueva Sirez, the

49:43

New Ideas Party, which actually

49:45

did have new ideas, but

49:47

the new ideas that they're

49:50

not telling you is techno-fascism,

49:52

right? Taking elements of the

49:54

FMLN's opposition of discourse and

49:57

combining it with the traditional

49:59

fascist militaristic practices of the

50:01

Arena Party, also an industrial-age

50:04

structure, Bukelen managed to... with

50:06

the help of his Venezuelan

50:08

digital consultants who worked against

50:11

Hugo Chavez and Maduro, they

50:13

concocted this whole new way

50:15

to dominate in the digital

50:18

age, you know, like, you

50:20

know, like, you know, people

50:22

talk about the spectacle of

50:25

politics in extreme. And it's

50:27

right there in front of

50:29

us. And people are consuming

50:32

it as if the spectacle

50:34

was reality. When you have,

50:36

for example, Bukela displaying gang

50:39

members on the floor, these

50:41

famous pictures, you know, he

50:43

was showing how to cover

50:45

up the extermination, the torture,

50:48

the disappearances. of previous governments,

50:50

including the FMLN government, sadly

50:52

when it came to gangs.

50:55

So instead of like continuing

50:57

the, he continues the worst

50:59

of military dictatorship, but does

51:02

it under the guise of

51:04

this digital democratic spectacle that

51:06

it did. Is he involved

51:09

in cryptocurrency as well? I

51:11

mean, like, yeah, right. That's,

51:13

that's, I mean, you also

51:16

see that down in Argentina,

51:18

like there is a growing

51:20

crypto, techno-fascist movement. that has

51:23

close ties with Elon Musk

51:25

and the Trump administration in

51:27

a variety of different countries.

51:30

Even as there are some

51:32

success stories in South America

51:34

with left-wing governments, there are

51:37

like on the other side

51:39

of the spectrum these far

51:41

right. kind of dictatorships like

51:44

who Kelly similarly is my

51:46

understanding is not really interested

51:48

in governing very much like

51:51

he hasn't done anything in

51:53

office except some of this

51:55

fascistic notorious prisons where he

51:58

has complete control over them

52:00

and can throw in anybody

52:02

he wants like there there

52:05

a lot of it's just

52:07

crypto scams is my read

52:09

of things. Absolutely. put it

52:12

into more debt. And it's

52:14

just, crypto is just another

52:16

part of the digital political

52:19

theater that you see in

52:21

the prisons, you know, that

52:23

you see in the meeting

52:26

today, that you see running

52:28

through and through Buchel's project.

52:30

And I'm glad you mentioned

52:33

Latin America because there's still

52:35

pockets and large swas of

52:37

hope to be had in

52:40

the Americas. arguably the most

52:42

insurgent continent in the world

52:44

when it comes to opposition

52:47

to U.S. Empire. And so

52:49

there's a whole history there

52:51

that the FMLN in its

52:54

Better Days was a part

52:56

of. That's part of why

52:58

I wrote my book to

53:01

preserve the history and remind

53:03

people. I mean, it was

53:05

no easy thing for me

53:08

to a U.S. citizen to

53:10

come out as a former

53:12

guerrilla fighter, but Trump helped

53:15

me to make that decision

53:17

because I realized that There

53:19

was some great learning to

53:22

be had in the revolutionary

53:24

tradition, a word that we

53:26

don't even use hardly anymore,

53:29

revolution in the US. We've

53:31

forgotten that there's a whole

53:33

tradition in the world that

53:36

was a revolutionary. tradition. And

53:38

so we have to kind

53:40

of go to the only

53:43

thing really proven to defeat

53:45

fascists over the course of

53:47

history has been revolutionary movements

53:50

by and large. And we're

53:52

going to need that now.

53:54

So what that means, I

53:57

don't have all the answers.

53:59

That's beyond my pay grade.

54:01

But I do know that

54:04

we need. to do in

54:06

our social movements, what psychologists,

54:08

for example, do with the

54:11

kids that I've interviewed in

54:13

the jails of Obama, Trump,

54:15

and Biden, which is to

54:18

reconstitute their, you know, the

54:20

kids' brains shrink when you

54:22

put them in these cages

54:25

and prisons for an extended

54:27

period. And psychologists treated them,

54:29

told me that the way

54:32

they deal with them is

54:34

to help the kids reconstitute

54:36

their story of themselves. in

54:39

a way that connects to

54:41

the part of us that's

54:43

indestructible because there is a

54:45

part of us spiritually, psychological,

54:48

that's indestructible. And so liberal

54:50

progressivism doesn't put us in

54:52

touch with that part of

54:55

our radical imagination or radical

54:57

core. And I think we

54:59

need to start thinking about

55:02

how do we build not

55:04

just individuals, but social movements

55:06

that re-engineer themselves to come

55:09

back in touch with the

55:11

things that make for real

55:13

social change. I can't see

55:16

how we're going to liberal

55:18

progressive our way out of

55:20

fascism. I don't. I think

55:23

time and again... The liberalism

55:25

is enabling fascism right now.

55:27

I mean we're seeing it

55:30

with the liberal institutional law

55:32

firms in the country because

55:34

even if you're liberal on

55:37

being... uh... open to other

55:39

cultures being laissez-faire liberal in

55:41

the marketplace means you're always

55:44

going to abandon the secondary

55:46

the secondary cultural and social

55:48

liberal is for the primary

55:51

means of power in society,

55:53

which is well funded capitalism.

55:55

That's what we're seeing. Absolutely.

55:58

I mean, I wrote a

56:00

piece for the nation a

56:02

while back on something I

56:05

call intersectional empire, which is

56:07

the alternative that Democrats have

56:09

offered us. You're not doing

56:12

anything to dismantle empire. You're

56:14

just advancing it under a

56:16

gay flag with a black

56:19

president. and women in the

56:21

cabinet and you know helicopters

56:23

with the gay flag on

56:26

them and stuff and so

56:28

the LGBTQ flag and so

56:30

like that's the alternative that

56:33

liberalism is offering us and

56:35

we are betrayed time and

56:37

again by liberal Democrats though

56:40

at some point we need

56:42

to have a big tent

56:44

social movement on a national

56:47

hemispheric level that brings in

56:49

all the different forces opposed

56:51

to the technical fascist order

56:54

that's being established in the

56:56

U.S. and across the hemisphere

56:58

with El Salvador, with Argentina.

57:01

We have to really go

57:03

back to the oldie Boguetti

57:05

idea of, you know, think

57:08

globally, act locally and connect

57:10

globally in ways we haven't

57:12

in the past. I do

57:15

have hope, however, right? I

57:17

see, just like when I

57:19

was in New York, I

57:22

saw... occupy when it was

57:24

coming. I see the possibilities

57:26

in a global movement that

57:29

will surpass the scale and

57:31

scope and intensity of the

57:33

68 movement because of our

57:36

ability to connect to each

57:38

other in ways that are

57:40

unprecedented from then to now.

57:43

And so that is my

57:45

great hook that we saw,

57:47

for example, in the movement

57:50

against the genocide in Palestine.

57:52

the interconnectedness of

57:55

the world acting

57:57

in unison. social

58:00

justice. And that preview is

58:02

also the reasons why you have

58:05

the attacks of the trumps and

58:07

the Buchelas and the

58:09

expansion of the franchise of

58:11

the terrorism, terrorization

58:14

of different groups of

58:16

people, including students. Eventually,

58:19

you're going to get to

58:21

labor people. You're going to

58:23

start expanding this. The

58:25

more aware that the opportunity

58:27

in Trump and Buchel is

58:30

meeting is to become aware

58:32

of the unification of the

58:34

global right that is going to

58:36

bring about the unification of

58:38

the global left. from your mouth

58:41

to God's ears. Roberto, thanks so

58:43

much for coming on the show

58:45

today. Roberto, Lovato, you can read

58:47

his book Unforgetting a Memoir of

58:49

Family, Migration, Gangs, and Revolution in

58:51

the Americas. We'll put a link

58:53

to that below wherever people are

58:55

listening to or watching this. Thanks

58:57

so much for your time. Do they

59:00

really appreciate it? My pleasure, Emma. Thank

59:02

you. Folks, before we wrap

59:04

up the free part of

59:06

this program and head into

59:08

the fun half, I figured

59:10

we should just tackle this

59:13

story now, because it's not

59:15

so fun, but it's breaking

59:17

news. Donald Trump, meeting

59:20

with El Salvador's

59:22

far-right dictator President

59:24

Bukalay in the White

59:26

House now, and here they

59:29

are openly talking about sending,

59:31

quote, prison

59:39

camp

59:43

in

59:46

El

59:54

go back to the second thing. Yeah,

59:56

we're getting this as we, so

59:58

but here you hear Trump then exclaim

1:00:00

more loudly, home groans

1:00:02

are next. Home groans are

1:00:05

next. The home groans build,

1:00:07

you gotta build about five

1:00:09

more places. Yeah, that's great.

1:00:11

All right? It's not big

1:00:13

enough. Oh yeah, come on.

1:00:15

So this is a much

1:00:17

different office than you're here.

1:00:19

Oh my God, then he's

1:00:21

going on about the, the decor

1:00:23

in the White House again. So

1:00:25

it's a much different place.

1:00:27

We put up a lot of go.

1:00:31

I know that we all know that this

1:00:33

man is an insane person. Has... Everyone

1:00:36

laughed in that room. It's not just

1:00:38

Trump. No, I mean, look at who

1:00:40

the crowd is. Stephen Miller and

1:00:42

Rubio and like, all they have

1:00:44

are News Nation and Fox News

1:00:47

reporters, if that, in there at

1:00:49

this point. I mean, yes, there's

1:00:51

complicity in the media on this

1:00:53

front, but they're also just like

1:00:55

not letting traditional media in

1:00:57

the room to ask these

1:00:59

kinds of questions. Here's another

1:01:02

part of this. Them talking

1:01:04

about Kilmar Abrego Garcia,

1:01:07

because the Supreme Court

1:01:09

has said now that the

1:01:11

Trump administration must

1:01:13

facilitate his return.

1:01:15

Trump is now saying

1:01:17

basically he's going to defy

1:01:19

that, testing. the Supreme Court, which

1:01:22

we knew was going to happen,

1:01:24

because they don't have an enforcement

1:01:26

mechanism. And that's why they said

1:01:29

things like facilitate and use

1:01:31

more conservative language than they would,

1:01:33

I think, if they were, like, had

1:01:35

the authority over, or if they hadn't,

1:01:37

maybe said that the president is immune

1:01:39

for prosecution for official acts, perhaps

1:01:41

they'd feel a little bit more

1:01:43

emboldened to tell him what to

1:01:45

do and what not to do,

1:01:47

but this is their own making

1:01:50

here. Buchella just

1:01:53

basically saying I'm

1:01:55

not going to help

1:01:57

send him back. Well,

1:02:00

I'm supposed to have suggested that

1:02:02

I smuggle a terrorist in the

1:02:04

United States, right? How can I

1:02:06

return him today, Larry? If I

1:02:08

could model him in the United

1:02:10

States or what? Of course, I'm

1:02:13

not going to do it. It's

1:02:15

like, I mean, the question is

1:02:17

preposterous. How can I model a

1:02:19

terrorist in the United States? I

1:02:21

don't have the power to return

1:02:23

him to the United States. But

1:02:25

you could release him inside of

1:02:27

the world. Yeah, but I'm not

1:02:29

releasing, I mean, but not very

1:02:32

fond of releasing terrorists into our

1:02:34

country. We just turned the murder

1:02:36

capital of the world into the

1:02:38

safest country of the Western Hemisphere.

1:02:41

And you want us to go

1:02:43

back into. have a criminal you

1:02:45

know yeah I mean they're so

1:02:47

they would love it yeah these

1:02:50

are sick people I mean who's

1:02:52

that reporter what one of the

1:02:54

only only Collins it's

1:02:56

Caitlin Collins there that's

1:02:59

the White House correspondent for

1:03:01

CNN it seems like

1:03:03

I mean So CCOT, which

1:03:06

is the maximum security prison

1:03:08

in El Salvador that Trump

1:03:10

says we now need many

1:03:13

more of, is a gulag.

1:03:15

It's basically a prison that

1:03:17

you don't talk to anybody.

1:03:19

It's solitary confinement for almost

1:03:22

every part of the day,

1:03:24

23 hours a day, which

1:03:27

is torture. Psychological torture.

1:03:29

that has effects on prisoners'

1:03:31

brains and is not helpful

1:03:33

to reintegrate people back into

1:03:35

society. It makes people go

1:03:38

insane. But that's the point. I

1:03:40

mean, and that's maybe the least

1:03:42

horrible thing that happens to these

1:03:44

folks in this prison. The way

1:03:46

you get into CCOT is if

1:03:48

Pukele says you get into CCOT

1:03:50

because he's a dictator, a far-right

1:03:53

dictator, who decides who gets thrown

1:03:55

in a prison camp and who

1:03:57

doesn't. and Donald Trump and these other

1:03:59

authorities. and is now talking

1:04:01

about doing that to American

1:04:04

citizens. We have had so

1:04:06

many constitutional crises under

1:04:09

this administration already and

1:04:11

it's been like three months

1:04:13

since he got into office,

1:04:15

but this might be the

1:04:17

most intense and that's saying

1:04:19

a lot because this is

1:04:22

an absolutely fundamental right in

1:04:24

this country, the right to

1:04:26

due process, and the Trump

1:04:28

administration is, well, habeas corpus.

1:04:30

This is their war on

1:04:32

habeas corpus. Basically saying

1:04:35

that Trump thinks that he

1:04:37

can deport anybody that he

1:04:39

deems a terrorist to a

1:04:42

foreign prison camp without having

1:04:44

their day in court. And then

1:04:46

when you marry that with... What

1:04:48

is happening right in front of our

1:04:50

eyes with Kilmara Brago Garcia being the

1:04:52

example, and Trump then saying in the

1:04:54

same meeting that he wants to do

1:04:57

that to U.S. citizens, what else can

1:04:59

we glean from this? Do we all

1:05:01

have Trump arrangement syndrome? Oh, it was

1:05:03

just going to be the criminals we

1:05:05

were told that were deported. And then

1:05:07

you had the press take that at

1:05:09

face value, and eventually they get access

1:05:11

to some court documents, and

1:05:13

you have CBS and other outlets

1:05:15

reporting. It's like anywhere between

1:05:17

75 to 90% of these

1:05:20

people have zero criminal record.

1:05:22

Zero. And there right now

1:05:24

hundreds in this prison in

1:05:27

solitary confinement with their head

1:05:29

shaved and likely being tortured.

1:05:32

And Trump is saying that he

1:05:34

wants to do that to US

1:05:36

citizens. I mean, obviously incredibly

1:05:39

disturbing. I mean, the

1:05:41

truth is, like, we don't need

1:05:44

to reference previous times or former

1:05:46

McCarthyisms. We're in one of those

1:05:48

periods now that people will cite.

1:05:51

And the question is, how bad

1:05:53

does it get? Mark Arubio, which

1:05:55

99 senators voted for, including Bernie

1:05:58

Sanders and Elizabeth Warren. they should

1:06:00

maybe be more at the forefront

1:06:02

of that vote, I think, and

1:06:04

maybe repenting for it. But here's

1:06:07

Muckarubio talking about this, who's actually

1:06:09

like maybe the key diplomat in

1:06:11

charge of, or key government figure

1:06:13

in charge of this besides Trump.

1:06:15

We're told this guy is the

1:06:17

sane one. Even I've highlighted,

1:06:20

I don't understand what the confusion

1:06:22

is. This individual is a citizen

1:06:24

of El Salvador. He was illegally

1:06:26

in the United States and was

1:06:28

returned to his country. That's where

1:06:30

you deport people, back to their

1:06:33

country of origin. Except for Venezuela,

1:06:35

that wasn't refusing to take people

1:06:37

back or places like that. I

1:06:39

can tell you this, Mr. President,

1:06:41

no. The foreign policy of the

1:06:43

United States is conducted by the

1:06:45

President of the United States, not

1:06:47

by a court. And no court

1:06:50

in the United States has a

1:06:52

right to conduct the foreign policy

1:06:54

of the United States. It's. It's

1:06:56

that simple. And the story. Okay.

1:06:58

So there's a few different slights

1:07:00

of hand there. First of all,

1:07:02

is he a terrorist or can

1:07:04

he be, can Kilmara break over

1:07:06

or see it be released back

1:07:09

into El Salvador? That's very different

1:07:11

than what Buchelli and Trump just

1:07:13

said there. They called him a

1:07:15

terrorist even though he's not one.

1:07:17

He's never been criminally charged. He

1:07:19

was fingered by a confidential informant

1:07:21

and that tip went nowhere and

1:07:23

that is the extent of any

1:07:26

history that he has with the

1:07:28

law outside of, you know, trying

1:07:30

to become a citizen and being

1:07:32

a part of a union and

1:07:34

working as an apprentice here in

1:07:36

the Maryland area. He is a

1:07:38

husband, he is a father, he

1:07:40

is not a terrorist, that's already

1:07:43

been delineated. The Trump administration admitted

1:07:45

that they made a mistake sending

1:07:47

him there. Then you have also,

1:07:49

they're basically prison, private prison contractor

1:07:51

in chief, Buchella is saying that

1:07:53

I'm not going to release him

1:07:55

because there's nothing I can do,

1:07:57

sneering at the rest of the

1:08:00

press. But then you turn to

1:08:02

Rubio saying, well, maybe he can

1:08:04

get released back into El Salvador

1:08:06

because that's where he's from. Which

1:08:08

one is it? 2019 they had

1:08:10

child together that was who was

1:08:12

a US citizen. Wife also had

1:08:14

two children from an earlier relationship

1:08:17

and all three children have special

1:08:19

needs. A burglary of fraud allegations

1:08:21

against him in deputation proceedings in

1:08:23

court and applied for asylum. His

1:08:25

request was denied. However, Judge Granary

1:08:27

withholding of removal status that would

1:08:29

block his deportation to El Salvador

1:08:31

due to the threat that gangs

1:08:34

would pose to him. He wasn't

1:08:36

a gang member. He's a threat

1:08:38

posed to the gang member. He's

1:08:40

a threat posed to the gang.

1:08:42

He's a threat posed to the

1:08:44

gang. But the truth is, if

1:08:46

we can't bring somebody back that

1:08:48

we send there, we shouldn't be

1:08:51

sending anywhere in there at all,

1:08:53

even if it's Hannibal, the late

1:08:55

great Hannibal lecture, as Donald Trump

1:08:57

likes to say. It's a fucking

1:08:59

joke. This is a fascist takeover

1:09:01

of, or a fascist advance, I

1:09:03

should say, takeover is probably too

1:09:05

generous to the United States. Fascists

1:09:08

advance of this country. And, you

1:09:10

know, there's certain people in our

1:09:12

field that we're... taking like you

1:09:14

said the claim that this was

1:09:16

just going to be criminals at

1:09:18

face value at the beginning of

1:09:20

this administration and also putting air

1:09:22

quotes around words like Gulag or

1:09:24

minimizing say like what it was

1:09:27

what it meant that we are

1:09:29

going to send more people to

1:09:31

Guantanamo. These are Gulag's. Trump said

1:09:33

more just on camera more of

1:09:35

them in for US citizens. And

1:09:37

we were totally hyperventilating you absolutely

1:09:39

like complete vicious liars. Yeah. And

1:09:41

then I like just and and

1:09:44

how. Obviously did it have to

1:09:46

be? How much did he have

1:09:48

to just say it? It's the

1:09:50

same thing. He's been saying tariffs.

1:09:52

He's been saying mass deportations. He's

1:09:54

been calling these people criminals baselessly.

1:09:56

And then you add Rubio, that's

1:09:58

the other side of hand there,

1:10:01

foreign policy. How is this foreign

1:10:03

policy when you're deporting people from

1:10:05

US soil who were here and

1:10:07

going through the process, including that

1:10:09

temporary removal? blockage that matches described

1:10:11

there. These are people that were

1:10:13

going through the legal process, including

1:10:15

those folks that apply for Social

1:10:18

Security numbers, because they hope that

1:10:20

one day they can build up

1:10:22

this equity so they can become

1:10:24

full U.S. citizens as they pay

1:10:26

billions of dollars into our social

1:10:28

programs and don't get anything out

1:10:30

of it in many instances. Like

1:10:32

it's the reverse of what they

1:10:35

describe. So it's not foreign policy.

1:10:37

This isn't about our relations with

1:10:39

the Middle East or with China

1:10:41

or whatever. These are people who

1:10:43

are here in the United States

1:10:45

on U.S. soil. But when you

1:10:47

say foreign policy because we are,

1:10:49

you can't understand the moment that

1:10:52

we're in without understanding the war

1:10:54

on terror and our erosion of

1:10:56

rights and the fact that frankly

1:10:58

Democrats did not effectively rebuild the

1:11:00

guardrails that were destroyed by the

1:11:02

Bush administration under the guise of

1:11:04

national security and foreign policy. We

1:11:06

now have these massive institutions like

1:11:09

ICE and the Department of Homeland

1:11:11

Security that have this broad authority

1:11:13

to bend into fascist, fully fascist,

1:11:15

organizations that the Trump administration is

1:11:17

using unilaterally to crack down on

1:11:19

people without due process, even in

1:11:21

the face of a 9-0 Supreme

1:11:23

Court ruling, even freaking Clarence Thomas

1:11:26

told them this is a bridge

1:11:28

too far. and Trump is defying

1:11:30

it. I mean, it's because we

1:11:32

have a Nazi. foreign policy that

1:11:34

includes Stephen Miller who is really

1:11:36

the author of this who was

1:11:38

exposed to Nazi basically what supremacist

1:11:40

in Trump's first term. You can

1:11:42

Google that, look it up. But

1:11:45

like a white Cuban like Macharubio

1:11:47

fits right in with that agenda,

1:11:49

frankly, particularly our entire history of

1:11:51

suppressing any kind of movements and

1:11:53

partnering with reactionaries like Bukelle, dictatorial

1:11:55

reactionaries. This is America. Can

1:11:58

I say? Regardless of whether, you

1:12:00

know, putting aside the actions of

1:12:02

the US government, putting aside the

1:12:04

actions of the Salvadoran government, individuals,

1:12:07

regardless of where they're from in

1:12:09

the world, have human rights. It's

1:12:11

sort of the basis of what

1:12:13

had been the, you know, established

1:12:15

post-war order. The concept, right, the

1:12:17

concept of human rights. And what...

1:12:20

the US officials and Salvadoran officials

1:12:22

have insinuated is that those people

1:12:24

who are in that gulag will

1:12:26

be there for the rest of

1:12:28

their lives. And say what you,

1:12:31

I mean, obviously what happened in

1:12:33

Guantanamo Bay was an abomination and

1:12:35

a perpetual human rights abuse that

1:12:37

continues to this day, but at

1:12:39

the very least, the US, the

1:12:41

Pentagon felt some pressure to have

1:12:44

some sort of trial. They, not

1:12:46

everyone actually, there's people who are

1:12:48

being held there who are not

1:12:50

charged with anything. But for the

1:12:52

most part, they felt some sort

1:12:55

of pressure to either charge people

1:12:57

and have at least a show

1:12:59

trial, like at least some sort

1:13:01

of kangaroo court. But in this

1:13:03

case, the Supreme Court told them

1:13:05

they had to. Sure. Yeah. But

1:13:08

in this case, these people are

1:13:10

being sent to El Salvador for

1:13:12

the rest of their lives without

1:13:14

having so much as been charged

1:13:16

with a crime. Regardless of where

1:13:19

they're from and who's doing it.

1:13:21

And gang ties, as we've gone

1:13:23

through in this interview, or in

1:13:25

our past interviews and with Roberta

1:13:27

today, are very flimsy and are

1:13:29

often used by local police departments

1:13:32

to have large scale databases on

1:13:34

poor men in cities. And again,

1:13:36

like broadly, even if somebody like...

1:13:38

was affiliated with a gang and

1:13:40

teenage years or whatever, like you,

1:13:43

the way to deal with that

1:13:45

is it cannot be to send

1:13:47

them to a gulag with no

1:13:49

recourse, with no due process. It's

1:13:51

obviously dealing with gangs, like a

1:13:53

gang is a symptom. Yep. With

1:13:56

that said. Matt, what's happening on

1:13:58

Left Reckoning? Probably talking some Colorado

1:14:00

Jared Polis with a guest, Grace

1:14:02

tomorrow on Left Reckoning, and yeah,

1:14:04

I mean, broadly freaking out about

1:14:07

all this stuff. Yep. All right,

1:14:09

well, we're gonna head into the

1:14:11

fun half. We'll open up the

1:14:13

phone lines on the other side

1:14:15

of things. This show relies on

1:14:17

your support. Join the Majority report.com.

1:14:20

We could really use it in

1:14:22

these times. It keeps us a

1:14:24

float. Appreciate all our members so

1:14:26

much. You can I am the

1:14:28

show and we read your I

1:14:31

am on air. We'll do some

1:14:33

right now before heading into the

1:14:35

fun half. Just as proof. Brooklyn

1:14:37

best, our democracy is over. We

1:14:39

need mass movements to hold off

1:14:41

the worst of what's to come

1:14:44

and Democrats won't save us. Yes.

1:14:46

We shouldn't think of it as

1:14:48

democracy was had and lost. Democracy

1:14:50

is something that has always been

1:14:52

struggled for and ground been taken

1:14:55

for it and ground has been

1:14:57

lost on it. We need to,

1:14:59

and I mean this is a

1:15:01

real problem with Democrats marketing of

1:15:03

you know fighting fascism and all

1:15:05

of stuff which is like the

1:15:08

idea that we just need to

1:15:10

put Democrats in power is some

1:15:12

kind of saving of democracy. Democracy

1:15:14

is in people. I mean it's

1:15:16

a bit... It's also in outcomes.

1:15:19

When it wasn't like Ben Franklin

1:15:21

said, was it a democracy if

1:15:23

you can keep it or a

1:15:25

public if you can keep it

1:15:27

either way? That's the issue and

1:15:29

the problem is... We have had

1:15:32

a lot of assaults on the

1:15:34

things that sustain democracy, whether it's

1:15:36

protests, being smeared as anti-Semitic, which

1:15:38

we all know what the protests

1:15:40

have done to advance democracy in

1:15:43

different generations. And now we have

1:15:45

a bipartisan effort to call people

1:15:47

anti-Semites for opposing genocide. Unions. Unions

1:15:49

were formative for the New Deal

1:15:51

would have never happened without massive

1:15:53

labor and even socialist and communist

1:15:56

organizing. Those have been complete... destroyed

1:15:58

in a bipartisan fashion. Of course,

1:16:00

not putting all the blame or

1:16:02

equal blame, but it's bipartisan. And

1:16:04

so yeah, we're up Schitz Creek

1:16:07

in a certain sense, but at

1:16:09

least there's some consciousness about that

1:16:11

and people aren't looking, and what

1:16:13

people can't do is look to

1:16:15

Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer. And

1:16:17

frankly, I could list a lot

1:16:20

more Democrats now, but I'll be

1:16:22

kind. This is a moment that

1:16:24

requires a lot of urgency and

1:16:26

a things that can't just be

1:16:28

a oh we did good on

1:16:31

the midterms let's try to maintain

1:16:33

this and not address any of

1:16:35

these fundamental contradictions particularly Israel and

1:16:37

hope that we can get by

1:16:39

without it because it's gonna it's

1:16:41

gonna continue to bite the Democrats

1:16:44

in the ass like it has

1:16:46

my entire fucking life and it

1:16:48

has to be democracy not just

1:16:50

in selling the virtue of democracy

1:16:52

but in performing actions that engender

1:16:55

like democratic results which includes economic

1:16:57

democracy which includes making the rules

1:16:59

of the game favorable to equitable

1:17:01

outcomes for people, which includes taxing

1:17:03

the rich and not allowing them

1:17:05

to rig the rules of the

1:17:08

game and exploit capitalism even more

1:17:10

than they do by hoarding wealth.

1:17:12

That's also how you perform democracy

1:17:14

and that's why the Democrats... struggle

1:17:16

to send that message. And I'm

1:17:19

not even just talking about, you

1:17:21

know, of course, deliver union stuff

1:17:23

and blah blah blah. The Joe

1:17:25

Biden administration, that they had the

1:17:27

power again. Democrats continue having power

1:17:29

in this stuff. And then they

1:17:32

get in power and say things

1:17:34

like, will out organize voter suppression?

1:17:36

Yeah. Like, I'm sorry, that is,

1:17:38

that is dirt on our fucking

1:17:40

coffin. Right. Yep. All right guys,

1:17:43

with that said, we'll end to

1:17:45

the fun half and we'll see

1:17:47

you there. Okay, Emma, please. Well,

1:17:49

I just, I feel that my

1:17:51

voice is sorely lacking on the

1:17:53

majority report. Wait, whoa! Look, Sam

1:17:56

was unpopular. vacation at Disney World.

1:17:58

So ladies and gentlemen, it is

1:18:00

my pleasure to welcome Emma to

1:18:02

the show. It is Thursday. Yeah,

1:18:04

I think you need to take

1:18:07

over for sale. That's cool. I'm

1:18:09

gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna pause

1:18:11

you right there. You can't encourage

1:18:13

Emma to live like this. And

1:18:15

I'll tell you why. Someone's offered

1:18:17

to work, sushi, and poker with

1:18:20

the boys. I

1:18:46

think that what you

1:18:48

did to Tim Poole

1:18:50

was mean. Free speech.

1:18:52

That's not what we're

1:18:54

about here. But look

1:18:56

at how sad he's

1:18:58

become now. You shouldn't

1:19:01

even talk about it.

1:19:03

I think you're responsible.

1:19:05

I probably am in

1:19:07

a certain way, but

1:19:09

let's get to the

1:19:11

meltdown here. This

1:19:28

is, I try to be

1:19:30

a dip right now, but

1:19:33

like, I absolutely think the

1:19:35

US should be providing me

1:19:38

with a life and kids.

1:19:40

That's not what we're talking

1:19:43

about here. It's not a

1:19:45

fun job. Work? That's

1:20:00

got boy. I think he might be broken

1:20:02

out proportion real thin. That's not all good

1:20:04

boys I offered it to her. That's a

1:20:06

real thing. That's not all good. Let's go Sushi

1:20:10

and all good boy. Take

1:20:12

it easy don't work sushi

1:20:14

and all good things have

1:20:16

really gotten out of hand

1:20:18

Sushi and all good boys

1:20:20

You're not have a clue

1:20:22

as to what's going on

1:20:24

Sam has to wait the

1:20:26

way of the world on

1:20:28

the shoulders. I just don't

1:20:30

want to do this show

1:20:32

anymore It was So much easier.

1:20:34

One of the majority was just you. You're happy.

1:20:36

Let's change the subject. Rangers and Nixon, right? No, shut

1:20:38

it up. Don't want people want people

1:20:40

saying reckless things on your

1:20:42

program That's one of the most

1:20:44

difficult parts parts about this show. This is

1:20:47

the pro-killing podcast. I'm thinking maybe the hatchet

1:20:49

left the hatchet. Left is best. Trufilot. Tour? Honor's

1:20:58

thesis We

1:21:09

already found Israel, dude. Are you

1:21:11

against us? That's a tougher question

1:21:13

than anything else. That's an incredible

1:21:15

theme song. I bumbler. Emma Viglin,

1:21:17

absolutely one of my favorite

1:21:19

of my favorite

1:21:21

people not just just

1:21:23

in the game

1:21:25

like period