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for this show. It is

2:30

Tuesday April 15th 2025.

2:33

My name is Emma

2:35

Bigelendon for Sam Cedar

2:38

and this is

2:40

the five-time award-winning

2:43

majority report. We

2:45

are broadcasting live

2:48

steps from the industrially

2:50

ravaged Gowanus Canal in

2:52

the heartland of America,

2:54

On the program, Dr.

2:56

Anil Shee line of

2:58

the Quincy Institute will

3:00

be with us to

3:02

talk about the U.S.

3:04

military industrial complex, her

3:06

paper on its history,

3:08

and how it relates

3:10

to our claims about

3:12

human rights. Also on the

3:14

program, full-blown constitutional

3:17

crisis mode. Trump defies

3:19

the Supreme Court on

3:21

returning Kilmar Arbrago Garcia

3:24

from El Salvador's gulag.

3:26

and contradicts his own Department

3:28

of Justice, which previously

3:30

claimed that Garcia's deportation

3:32

was a mistake. In

3:34

that same meeting, Trump

3:36

was caught on a

3:38

hot mic, telling Bouquetlet

3:41

that homegrown American citizens

3:43

are next. Senator Van

3:45

Holland of Maryland demands

3:47

a meeting with Bouquetlet over

3:49

Garcia's imprisonment and says he

3:52

will go to El Salvador

3:54

himself. if Garcia is not

3:56

returned. A Quinnipiac

3:59

poll shows public opinion on

4:01

Trump's immigration policies has shifted

4:03

with a majority of Americans

4:06

including a majority of independence

4:08

now disapproving. So does

4:10

that mean the Democrats will fight on

4:13

something now because it's hit over 50%?

4:15

Well not Israel but this is

4:17

the popularism that the Biden administration

4:19

is a fan of. Leading from

4:21

behind is what I would call

4:23

it. Harvard

4:25

refuses Trump's demands

4:28

to suppress anti-genocide

4:30

protests, and refused

4:32

admissions to foreign students,

4:35

so Trump cancels $2 billion

4:37

in grants, but good on

4:39

Harvard. MIT also followed.

4:42

Another Columbia student,

4:44

a Palestinian green card holder

4:46

for a decade, has

4:48

been disappeared after showing up

4:51

to his immigration hearing. Some

4:54

rare good news the Trump

4:56

administration is re-engaging with Iran

4:59

on nuclear talks. I mean,

5:01

we'll take that over some

5:04

more bombings. Trump announces new

5:06

tariffs on semiconductors and pharmaceuticals

5:09

that could change after the

5:11

sentence ends. A Koch brothers

5:13

backed illegal group

5:15

representing a group of small businesses

5:18

sues Trump over tariffs.

5:22

Marjorie Taylor Green got caught with

5:24

her hand in the insider trading jar.

5:26

She was one of the people that

5:28

bought a bunch of stock right before

5:31

Trump provoked the most insane

5:33

of his tariffs. FEMA denies

5:35

Washington State disaster relief

5:38

for cyclone damage in

5:40

November because Blue State. Trump's

5:42

billionaire donor Bill Ackman, the

5:45

Zionist who funded doxing

5:47

campaigns of students protesting

5:49

genocide genocide genocide. Donates

5:51

to Andrew Cuomo's mayoral

5:54

campaign. And on a

5:56

related note, lastly, quarter

5:58

mill. Wow. Holmose

6:01

campaign was caught writing

6:03

its housing policy platform

6:06

with chat GPT. Maybe

6:08

Acvin's, you know, incredible

6:10

wealth can help them with

6:13

some better, I don't know,

6:15

workplace practices, not using chat

6:17

GPT because housing's the number

6:19

one issue in the city,

6:22

all this and more on

6:24

today's program. Oh, gosh. Really

6:26

hoping that we can stave

6:29

off Andrew Cuomo here. Hello,

6:31

Matt. Hello, Russ. It

6:33

is Newsday, Tuesday. Yesterday,

6:35

we responded to this story

6:37

as breaking news, this

6:40

press conference with

6:42

Salvadoran President Naiboukele,

6:44

who was visiting the Oval

6:47

Office. But I wanted to do

6:49

a deeper dive. To start

6:51

the show today, because this

6:53

is an enormously important story,

6:55

there were two massive pieces

6:57

of news to come out of

6:59

that meeting. One is that Trump

7:02

is openly defying the

7:04

Supreme Court in a

7:06

major constitutional crisis. The

7:08

other was that Trump got caught

7:10

on a hot mic saying that,

7:12

quote, home groans are next

7:14

to Buchale. Insinuating that

7:17

he is open to the idea

7:19

of sending American citizens

7:21

to a foreign gulag. Now, we'll get

7:24

to that other incredibly horrifying

7:26

statement, but let's tackle

7:28

this first one here because it's

7:31

really important that we

7:33

get this right. Yesterday, I

7:35

did make a mistake responding

7:37

to the breaking news. Sometimes

7:39

that happens. CCOT, I said,

7:42

uses solitary confinement broadly. I

7:44

said that yesterday. It doesn't. It's

7:46

a tactic that is occasionally used

7:48

in... This Gulag, Sikat, which is

7:51

an acronym for Terrorism Confignment Center

7:53

in Spanish. It was built in

7:55

2022, opened in 2023, but it's

7:58

a black hole prison. In

8:00

fact, the conditions outside of the

8:02

occasional use of solitary confinement are

8:04

also just as torturous. They leave

8:07

the lights on for 24 hours

8:09

a day. You can't go outside.

8:11

The prisoners can't communicate with relatives

8:13

and lawyers. Go ahead, Matt. One

8:16

thing about solitary confinement is it's

8:18

expensive. And El Salvador is already

8:20

spending 3% of its budget on

8:23

these cages for humanity. you'd rather

8:25

just pack them in there like

8:27

sardines because you know yeah you

8:29

need to you need the real

8:32

estate for solitary confinement and right

8:34

not enough square footage and you're

8:36

right that they're packed in there's

8:38

been human rights groups have talked

8:41

about how there is skin disease

8:43

problems rampant disease problems because of

8:45

overcrowding the there's regular beatings and

8:47

torture denial of health care toilets

8:50

water, hundreds of deaths have been

8:52

documented in Sea Cot since it

8:54

opened at the start of 2023.

8:56

And that's where Kilmer Obrago Garcia

8:59

is, to the best of our

9:01

knowledge, a Maryland father who was

9:03

a sheet metal worker trying to

9:06

get ahead in this country who

9:08

came here trying to flee the

9:10

very violence that he was just

9:12

sent back to. And... In court,

9:15

the Trump administration conceded and admitted

9:17

that they should have sent Garcia

9:19

away, that it was a mistake,

9:21

or they shouldn't have. Do we

9:24

have that tweet that I sent

9:26

you? I'm sorry, Matt, I should

9:28

have pulled this up, number four.

9:30

Anna Bauer, who is of the

9:33

senior editor at Lawfare, put this

9:35

together. So the Trump administration is

9:37

claiming that it wasn't a mistake

9:39

now and we'll get to that

9:42

clip in the second. Particularly Stephen

9:44

Miller. Right. who is really, it

9:46

kind of seems like the president

9:49

right now. Also a Nazi. Yep.

9:51

They're claiming that there wasn't a

9:53

mistake in public to the press,

9:55

but the DOJ lawyers said something

9:58

very different at the time. Here

10:00

is this first slide, the solicitor

10:02

general under Donald Trump. While the

10:04

United States concedes that the removal

10:07

to El Salvador was an administrative

10:09

error, that does not license district

10:11

courts to seize control over foreign

10:13

relations. That was what was said.

10:16

in that document by the Solicitor

10:18

General. Now let's go here to

10:20

the second slide. Another admission of

10:23

an administrative error by an ICE

10:25

official, Robert Cerna. The quote is,

10:27

through administrative error, Abrego Garcia was

10:29

removed from the United States to

10:32

El Salvador. This was an oversight.

10:34

And the removal was carried out

10:36

in good faith based on the

10:38

existence of a final order of

10:41

removal and Abrego Garcia's purported membership

10:43

in MS-13. Oh, well, people that

10:45

operate in good faith don't have

10:47

to insist on their good faith.

10:50

Yeah. These are, this is a,

10:52

ice and all these detention authorities

10:54

are goon squads that get paid

10:56

$100,000 a year to just make

10:59

mistakes like this. And there's many

11:01

of them. How do you remove

11:03

somebody from the United States in

11:06

good faith? Oh, well. We didn't

11:08

look we thought that we got

11:10

very scared of the tattoo and

11:12

put him on a bus and

11:15

shipped him to I mean it's

11:17

a lie it's a joke it's

11:19

it's an insult to everyone's intelligence

11:21

anyone who buys this is is

11:24

you know I got a bridge

11:26

to sell you but they get

11:28

off on the line that and

11:30

they know that they can't make

11:33

the claims they're making in public

11:35

in court So they have to

11:37

be a little bit more honest

11:39

here. It'll say good faith, but

11:42

the admission is the most important

11:44

part. This is a third piece

11:46

of evidence from the Department of

11:49

Justice lawyer, Eres Rovani in court

11:51

filings and out of hearing. We

11:53

concede he should not have been

11:55

removed to El Salvador. This is

11:58

when they have to put pen

12:00

to paper and when they're in

12:02

court. But now let's turn to

12:04

what they're saying to the cameras.

12:07

So this is the new tactic,

12:09

right? There, the Supreme Court said

12:11

that that the Trump administration needs

12:13

to be facilitating a Brigo Garcia's

12:16

release and effectuating is the other

12:18

word. The Department of Justice claimed

12:20

in a filing on Sunday, I

12:22

guess it was at this point,

12:25

that they don't see that as

12:27

having to bring him back to

12:29

the United States, that they're only

12:32

liable for him having to come

12:34

back once he's freed from the

12:36

Salvedor prison. But Bukela is saying,

12:38

even though he's acting as a

12:41

United States contractor, that he's not

12:43

going to do that. So with

12:45

all of this in mind, let's

12:47

play this full exchange from yesterday,

12:50

because it all kicked off with

12:52

this question from Caitlin Collins of

12:54

CNN. And you see Trump call

12:56

on the rest of the class

12:59

to give their answers on this

13:01

obviously illegal fascist action. And there's

13:03

some contradictions even in this short

13:06

time frame of these. idiots communicating

13:08

to us. He was illegally in

13:10

our country. He had been illegally

13:12

in our country. And in 2019,

13:15

two courts, an immigration court, and

13:17

an appellate immigration court, ruled that

13:19

he was a member of MS-13,

13:21

and he was illegally in our

13:24

country. Right now, it was a

13:26

paperwork. It was additional paperwork that

13:28

needed to be done. That's up

13:30

to El Salvador if they want

13:33

to return him. That's not up

13:35

to us. The Supreme Court ruled

13:37

president that if, as El Salvador

13:39

wants to return him, this is

13:42

international matters, foreign affairs, if they

13:44

wanted to return him, we would

13:46

facilitate it, meaning provide a plane.

13:49

OK, I pause it for a

13:51

second. And you are doing a

13:53

great job. So you hear that,

13:55

right? First of all, she falsely

13:58

claims that Brigo Garcia was an

14:00

MS-13 member. The reality is that

14:02

he was arrested by ICE in

14:04

2019 as he was waiting looking

14:07

for day labor at a home

14:09

depot in Maryland There was an

14:11

informant that said he may be

14:13

an MS-13 member and so immigration

14:16

judges denied him bond initially Not

14:18

the best people those informants. They'll

14:20

just they'll just say things and

14:22

that bore out in the fact

14:25

that his bond, yes it was

14:27

initially denied because of that informant

14:29

claim, but he then later received

14:32

in immigration protection, which is entitled

14:34

withholding of removal. And it was

14:36

determined where they granted that withholding

14:38

of removal, that he was not

14:41

a danger to US national security.

14:43

Now, you also hear Pam Bondi

14:45

say that this is foreign policy.

14:47

We talked about this a little

14:50

bit yesterday, but this is a

14:52

way to remove people's rights because

14:54

since the war on terror and

14:56

the Trump administration 2.0 is building

14:59

off of the unitary executive theory

15:01

that was furthered and begun, really,

15:03

I guess, or formally begun under

15:06

the Bush administration in the Iraq

15:08

war, it's about giving the president

15:10

basically broad authority here and removing

15:12

it from the confines of the

15:15

constitution when it constitutes foreign policy.

15:17

So because this involves the El

15:19

Salvador government, which took these individuals

15:21

as functioning as a contractor for

15:24

the United States, they are claiming

15:26

that this is foreign policy and

15:28

then also classifying immigrants as terrorists,

15:30

so they feel like it's easier

15:33

to remove their rights. But keep

15:35

going. because they're talking slant because

15:37

they don't know what's happening. That's

15:39

why nobody's watching them. But would

15:42

you answer that question or also?

15:44

Yes, gladly. So as Pam mentioned,

15:46

there's an illegal alien from El

15:49

Salvador. So with respect to you,

15:51

he's a citizen of El Salvador.

15:53

So it's very arrogant even for

15:55

American media to suggest that we

15:58

would even tell El Salvador how

16:00

to handle their own citizens as

16:02

a starting point. As two immigration

16:04

courts found that he was a

16:07

member of MS 13. When President

16:09

Trump declared MS-13 to be a

16:11

foreign terrorist organization, that meant that

16:13

he was no longer eligible under

16:16

federal law, which I'm sure you

16:18

know you're very familiar with the

16:20

I&A, that he was no longer

16:22

eligible for any foreign immigration relief

16:25

in the United States. So he

16:27

had a deportation order that was

16:29

valid, which meant that under our

16:32

law he's not even allowed to

16:34

be present in the United States

16:36

and had to be returned because

16:38

of the foreign terrorist designation. This

16:41

issue was then... by a district

16:43

court judge completely inverted and a

16:45

district court judge tried to tell

16:47

the administration that they had to

16:50

kidnap a citizen of El Salvador

16:52

and flying back here. Oh, okay,

16:54

okay, okay, okay. Kidnapping, kidnapping. No,

16:56

you guys did the kidnapping and

16:59

sent him here, there. This would

17:01

be returning him to his family.

17:03

And it's interesting he uses that

17:05

language because later we'll play Martin

17:08

O'Malley. who is suggesting something that

17:10

I think is really a policy

17:12

that the Democratic Attorney's General should

17:15

pursue that they should file kidnapping

17:17

charges against the administration. So I

17:19

find it interesting... Exactly why he's

17:21

doing that. Yeah, that's why he's

17:24

using that language. Keep going. And

17:26

the Supreme Court said the district

17:28

court order was unlawful and its

17:30

make opponents reversed 90 unanimously stating

17:33

clearly that neither... Secretary of State,

17:35

nor the President could be compelled

17:37

by anybody to forcibly retrieve a

17:39

citizen of El Salvador from El

17:42

Salvador, who again is a member

17:44

of MS-13, which is, I'm sure

17:46

you understand, rapes little girls, murders

17:49

women, murders children, is engaged in

17:51

the most barbaric activities in the

17:53

world, and I can promise you

17:55

if he was your neighbor, you

17:58

would move right away. So you

18:00

don't think ask for anything to

18:02

get in that? In our favor.

18:04

In our favor, against the district

18:07

ruling, said that no district court

18:09

has the power to compel the

18:11

foreign policy function of the United

18:13

States. As Pam said, the ruling

18:16

solely stated that if this individual

18:18

at El Salvador's sole discretion was

18:20

sent back to our country, that

18:22

we could deport him a second

18:25

time. I don't think so. Just

18:27

to underline, the guy who could

18:29

make that decision is sitting right

18:32

next to Trump grinning and saying,

18:34

ah, it's out of my hands

18:36

too. Oh, don't you worry, they'll

18:38

ask him that question. He is

18:41

a citizen of El Salvador. That

18:43

is the president of El Salvador.

18:45

Your questions about it, per the

18:47

court, can only be directed to

18:50

him? I asked him. Can President

18:52

Bukelli weigh in on this? Do

18:54

you plan to return him? What

18:56

should have suggested that I smuggle

18:59

a terrorizing today in the United

19:01

States? I'm not going to do

19:03

it. It's like, I smuggle him

19:05

into the United States or whether

19:08

I'm doing it for us, I'm

19:10

not going to do it. It's

19:12

like, I mean, this smuggle him.

19:15

How can I smuggle him? How

19:17

can I smuggle a terrorizing today

19:19

in the United States? I don't

19:21

have the power to return him

19:24

to the United States. Yeah, but

19:26

I'm not releasing, I mean, we're

19:28

not very fond of releasing terrorism

19:30

to our country, but you just

19:33

turned the murder cap of the

19:35

world, the safest country, the Western

19:37

Hemisphere, and want us to go

19:39

back into the, releasing criminals, so

19:42

we can go back to being

19:44

the murder cat group, the world,

19:46

and that's, that's not going to

19:48

be wrapping. Well, they'd love to

19:51

have a criminal, you know, we

19:53

actually, I mean, I don't understand

19:55

what the confusion is. This individual

19:58

is a citizen of El Salvador.

20:00

He was illegally in the United

20:02

States and was returned to his

20:04

country. That's where you deport people,

20:07

back to their country of origin.

20:09

Except for Venezuela, it was refusing

20:11

to take people back to places

20:13

like that. I can tell you

20:16

this, Mr. President. No. The foreign

20:18

policy of the United States is

20:20

conducted by the President of the

20:22

United States, not by a court.

20:25

And no court foreign policy. The

20:27

United States has a right to

20:29

conduct the foreign policy of the

20:32

United States. It's that simple. And

20:34

the story. And that's what it

20:36

should be for now, by the

20:38

way. So that's the top diplomat

20:41

of the country, Marco Rubio, who,

20:43

I mean, how did he, how

20:45

did his people get to this

20:47

country? Saying that, yeah, I guess

20:50

we don't have to follow any

20:52

court rulings. And this is our

20:54

foreign policy to send innocent people

20:56

into gulags. I don't understand what

20:59

the confusion is. Well, here, let

21:01

me, let me just take a

21:03

crack at this, Marco. That clip

21:05

was around five minutes long. It

21:08

opened with Trump calling on Pam,

21:10

his favorite student, who said that

21:12

it's up to El Salvador if

21:15

they want to return Garcia. It's

21:17

not up to the United States.

21:19

Then the press asked Buchale, the

21:21

president of El Salvador, who says,

21:24

I don't have the power to

21:26

return him to the United States.

21:28

That would be smuggling. So then

21:30

Rubio says I don't understand the

21:33

confusion. You don't? You don't understand

21:35

the confusion? Because it seems like

21:37

the confusion is the purpose. And

21:39

it's in complete contrast. to what

21:42

they're claiming in court. Stephen Miller

21:44

keeps saying it's a mistake, it

21:46

wasn't a mistake. That's now what

21:48

the Department of Justice is saying.

21:51

Also, the judge said when it

21:53

was ruled, under the withholding of

21:55

removal for Kimara Brago Garcia, that

21:58

they could not send him back

22:00

to El Salvador because of his

22:02

asylum claim. because there are asylum

22:04

laws that are supposed to protect

22:07

people from political violence. The judge

22:09

that issued the withholding put that

22:11

in the ruling. So they could

22:13

have deported him to other countries.

22:16

They could have been just as

22:18

cruel, but not just as cruel,

22:20

almost as cruel. They could have

22:22

been in the 99th percentile of

22:25

cruelty, but they want to go

22:27

over the top to send him

22:29

to an abusive gulag. So no.

22:32

there is a process and they

22:34

could have petitioned to revoke the

22:36

withholding of removal but they didn't

22:38

do that and they violated it

22:41

twice one by deporting him and

22:43

then secondly and without going through

22:45

that petition process and then secondly

22:47

by deporting him to the one

22:50

country that the judge who granted

22:52

that for him said he couldn't

22:54

be sent to because of safety

22:56

concerns. And I would also just

22:59

underline a Brago Garcia's safety is

23:01

and it's great to see representatives.

23:03

a threatening to go down to

23:05

El Salvador to secure him because

23:08

his safety cannot be assured. He

23:10

could be murdered in this system.

23:12

Bukale has a history of cutting

23:15

deals with gangs. It's actually the,

23:17

how did this happen where they,

23:19

you know, got these gangs together?

23:21

Well, they're mass incarceration, which is

23:24

going on for a while, and

23:26

it's very expensive, and probably not

23:28

long for this world. But prior

23:30

to that, Bukale was cutting deals

23:33

with these gangs with these gangs.

23:35

i am worried that these these

23:37

gang facilities like if he if

23:39

a guy somebody that was in

23:42

this country because they were avoiding

23:44

gangs goes into that prison how

23:46

can like he's alive exactly but

23:48

Kelly says like he calls him

23:51

a terrorist i'm sorry Sorry, like

23:53

the worst has to be, the

23:55

worst is on the table right

23:58

now. I mean, that's, that is

24:00

definitely in the realm of possibility,

24:02

that that's part of why they're

24:04

fighting so hard. I mean, I,

24:07

I also think they're fighting so

24:09

hard because it's just, that's what

24:11

fascists do, because they're both. They

24:13

can't have him come back and

24:16

like, you know, and testify. I

24:18

mean, there's, this is what, I

24:20

love the fascist playbook. They're both.

24:22

So powerful and strong, but also

24:25

so weak and powerless. There's nothing

24:27

that Kelly can do to release

24:29

Garcia. There's nothing Trump can do

24:31

to release Garcia. There's nothing Pam

24:34

Bondi can do to release Garcia.

24:36

There's nothing Mark Arubio can do

24:38

to release Garcia. There's nothing Stephen

24:41

Miller can do to release Garcia.

24:43

But we're also strong men. And

24:45

we're alphas. And we're the powerful.

24:47

But also victims. Constantly victims. And

24:50

also very scared, seen terrorists everywhere.

24:52

They're under your bed. With

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All right, quick break, and when we

28:50

come back, we'll be joined by

28:52

Anil. back we'll be joined by Anel. We

30:07

are back and we are joined

30:09

once again by friend of the

30:12

show Dr. Anel Sheeline Research Fellow

30:14

in the Middle East Program at

30:16

the Quincy Institute and now was

30:19

also at the State Department under

30:21

Biden and resigned over the administration's

30:24

support for the Gaza genocide. Her

30:26

brief in Quincy, which is new,

30:28

is called under primacy, or primacy,

30:31

weapon sales will always supersede human

30:33

rights. Anel, thanks so much for

30:35

coming back on the show. Thank

30:38

you for having me. So I

30:40

just wanted to start here because

30:43

as I as I just mentioned

30:45

obviously you resigned From the State

30:47

Department under Biden we've had you

30:50

on to discuss your decision on

30:52

that front But now we are

30:55

in this Trump era and there

30:57

are a variety of just mass

30:59

human rights abuses that the administration

31:02

is engaging and we just covered

31:04

What's happening with the El Salvador

31:06

gulags, but also the disappearances of

31:09

people speaking out against the genocide

31:11

here in this country, as someone

31:14

who felt compelled enough morally to

31:16

resign from your job over this,

31:18

what's been your reaction to the

31:21

Trump administration's escalation of these statistic

31:23

tactics? Yeah, it is really scary.

31:26

And in many ways, you know,

31:28

while it is certainly interesting to

31:30

see the way that Democrats are

31:33

finally speaking up about what's going

31:35

on in contrast to under Biden,

31:38

where we saw much less of

31:40

that sort of convenient now to

31:42

speak up now that they're no

31:45

longer in power. And in many

31:47

ways, you know, while it is

31:49

certainly abhorrent what Trump has been

31:52

doing, I do just

31:54

want to emphasize that Biden initiated

31:56

a lot of this, again, not

31:59

to the level where... seeing, but

32:01

in particular, things like characterizing the

32:03

campus protesters as anti-Semitic, instructing the

32:06

federal government to use the IRA,

32:08

the International Holocaust Remembrance Association of

32:10

Anti-Semitism, which does include criticism of

32:13

Israel as anti-Semitic. All of these

32:15

ways that Trump is kind of

32:17

building on the framework that Biden

32:20

established. While certainly Trump has gone

32:22

a lot further, I think the

32:24

metaphor I've heard that I found

32:27

useful was that Biden cleaned and

32:29

loaded the gun, and now Trump

32:31

is firing it. Obviously, firing the

32:34

gun is a lot more damaging

32:36

than loading it, but still Biden

32:38

set up a lot of this.

32:41

And so while I welcome the

32:43

fact that we are starting to

32:45

see a few members of Congress

32:48

calling this out, and I hope

32:50

increasingly they will do so because

32:52

it is becoming so apparent that

32:55

this is not just about... the

32:57

matter of Palestine, but it's about

32:59

free speech. It's about the Constitution.

33:02

It's about authoritarianism in this country.

33:04

And I'm just, I'm a little

33:06

worried that people may sort of

33:09

look back with rose-colored glasses at

33:11

the Biden administration and say how

33:13

much better things were then when

33:16

they weren't. Well, they were not.

33:18

And I mean... What may benefit

33:20

us is that even Democrats are

33:23

enraged by Biden and his holding

33:25

on to power in the face

33:27

of this fascistic administration. Like he

33:30

doesn't have the Obama charisma that

33:32

can paper over the way that

33:34

Obama made many mistakes and capitulated

33:37

to the right. Like Biden is

33:39

probably cooked and is likely going

33:41

to be viewed as one of

33:44

the worst presence in the history

33:46

of the country. I don't know.

33:48

I mean in history, but I

33:51

also, who knows how history is

33:53

going to respond to these things.

33:55

Yeah, I mean, I'm reminded of,

33:58

and I don't know if you've

34:00

covered this on the show, the

34:02

fact that there was that you

34:05

got slash IMEU poll that found

34:07

that 29% of voters who voted

34:09

for Biden in 2020 didn't vote

34:12

for Harris in 2024 listed Gaza

34:14

as their main issue and that

34:16

was a higher percentage than people

34:19

who were concerned about immigration or

34:21

inflation. So they lost the White

34:23

House over this and maybe cost

34:26

us American democracy. So I just

34:28

hope that as Democrats are thinking

34:30

about you know, if we're able

34:33

to have functioning elections in the

34:35

future, the fact that supporting genocide

34:37

is not a winning political platform.

34:40

It's, uh, I hope so too,

34:42

but we interviewed a representative for

34:44

Mila Jayapal maybe a month or

34:47

two months ago and I asked

34:49

her this very question, have Democrats

34:51

reckoned with how their support for

34:54

genocide has particularly harmed their brand

34:56

with young people? I'm using my

34:58

example of somebody who was inspired

35:01

by Obama's anti-Iraq war stance and

35:03

that's how I first got interested

35:05

in politics. And she said, honestly,

35:08

no. And that's the thing where

35:10

it really just strikes, strikes accord

35:12

with me. And now this kind

35:15

of bleeds into what you wrote

35:17

about. Like, the McCarthyite era also

35:19

first was... brought to the fore

35:22

by Democrats who thought that they

35:24

could do it in a more

35:26

managed way. We can repress this

35:29

kind of left-wing political speech, the

35:31

commies. Now it's the, you know,

35:33

anti-Semites on campus, meaning people outraged

35:36

about genocide. We can do it

35:38

in a more managed, targeted way.

35:40

And then the right. inevitably takes

35:43

the mantle and it's authoritarian crackdown

35:45

time we execute the Rosenberg's the

35:48

we blackball anybody with loose ties

35:50

to communism that's what a mirror

35:52

of what we're seeing right now

35:55

exactly and you know as as

35:57

you said in the report a

35:59

big part of the argument I

36:02

make is looking into the historical

36:04

record of the fact that, you

36:06

know, it's not just Trump or,

36:09

you know, it's not just sort

36:11

of US foreign policy since World

36:13

War II has been driven by

36:16

this imperative towards military primacy, one

36:18

crucial aspect of which is weapon

36:20

sales and that under this overarching

36:23

framework, the United States is never

36:25

going to prioritize human rights. And

36:27

in the report. I wasn't introducing

36:30

a lot of information that was

36:32

not previously public. I mean, I'm

36:34

not allowed to do that as

36:37

a former government employee, but it's

36:39

been interesting because I think people

36:41

have, I think it's tapping into

36:44

something that people themselves are thinking

36:46

and this awareness of. our image

36:48

of ourselves as Americans in this

36:51

idea of sort of American exceptionalism.

36:53

Certainly this is a very pervasive

36:55

idea inside the State Department or

36:58

inside U.S. government that the U.S.

37:00

is a force for good in

37:02

the world, that the U.S. upholds

37:05

human rights. As I say in

37:07

the report, I mean, that myth

37:09

lies buried under the rubble of

37:12

Gaza. I think for many people

37:14

around the world, they no longer

37:16

held that assumption. I imagine many

37:19

of your listeners also didn't hold

37:21

that assumption, but so many Americans

37:23

still sort of believe that. And

37:26

I do think it is becoming

37:28

increasingly difficult to maintain that fiction.

37:30

Sorry, go ahead. No, that's I

37:33

think a good place for us

37:35

to dive in now is we

37:37

can, let's start as broadly as

37:40

we can. When did the era

37:42

of US primacy begin as you

37:44

understand it? And when did that

37:47

get tied into the military-industrial complex

37:49

piece? Yeah, so I'm partly basing

37:51

this. on a former colleague here

37:54

at Quincy who's now at Carnegie

37:56

Stephen Wirthtime's excellent book called Tomorrow

37:58

the World, whereas in his story,

38:01

and he traces this in kind

38:03

of the aftermath of World War

38:05

II, this decision, partly informed by

38:08

the experience of the US economy

38:10

going through sort of military industrialization

38:12

to fight World War II and

38:15

how that helped. move the U.S.

38:17

economy out of the Great Depression,

38:19

and then the choice to sort

38:22

of perpetuate that. And at the

38:24

time, this was motivated by Cold

38:26

War logics, you know, which, as

38:29

you mentioned, later morphed, you know,

38:31

was reflected in McCarthyism and the

38:33

sort of boogie man of communism,

38:36

which writ large, and as time

38:38

went on as you know the

38:40

military industrial complex grew to such

38:43

an extent that you had people

38:45

like President Eisenhower himself a military

38:47

cautioning the American people about the

38:50

influence of the defense industry of

38:52

kind of the ways in which

38:54

this would help this would drive

38:57

our foreign policy. Then I go

38:59

through the fact that in the

39:01

1970s there was a huge expansion

39:04

in the weapons production and weapons

39:06

sales around the world, which corresponded

39:08

to the fact that this was

39:11

the first time that Congress actually

39:13

said that no, actually human rights

39:15

should be part of our our

39:18

consideration when we are establishing our

39:20

foreign policy and linking weapon sales

39:22

to human rights in the law.

39:25

Unfortunately, that law has never been

39:27

applied because that would undermine such

39:29

a core aspect of how we

39:32

conduct our foreign policy, which is

39:34

often driven by military sales, by

39:36

security assistance writ large, which includes

39:39

weapon sales. So we have other

39:41

law. I go through this in

39:43

the report. The fact that there

39:46

are other laws on the books,

39:48

things like the Leahy laws, which

39:50

would limit security assistance to a

39:53

specific unit of a military. that

39:55

engages in gross human rights violations.

39:57

You have 620I of the Foreign

40:00

Assistance Act, which stipulates that if

40:02

a country is blocking humanitarian aid,

40:04

they're no longer eligible for security

40:07

assistance. But all of these are

40:09

kind of piecemeal below the broader

40:11

law, which says if a government

40:14

has engaged in gross violations of

40:16

human rights, they're no longer eligible

40:18

for US security assistance. And yet

40:21

that, again, that law has never

40:23

been applied because that. undermine so

40:25

much of how we conduct our

40:28

foreign policy. And I want to

40:30

get to Israel specifically and the

40:32

Middle East in just a second,

40:35

but can you talk about the

40:37

origin of these efforts to say,

40:39

okay, we'll sell a bunch of

40:42

weapons, but this came about in

40:44

the 70s as you write, let's

40:46

at least give consideration to human

40:49

rights, or at least that was

40:51

the stated purpose of the laws?

40:53

Exactly. So yeah, the timing is

40:56

interesting. It came about kind of

40:58

as the country was reacting to

41:00

Nixon's imperial presidency and then Ford

41:03

and the lack of accountability and

41:05

the Vietnam War and grappling with

41:07

what it was that the United

41:10

States had enabled had pursued in

41:12

Vietnam. But in particular, it was

41:14

actually the public recognition or realization

41:17

of the fact that the U.S.

41:19

government had been involved in overthrowing

41:21

Salvador Iyende of Chile and installing

41:24

Pinochet as a brutal dictator. That

41:26

got a lot of attention and

41:28

this, it was in that context

41:31

that you had activists, you know,

41:33

various groups pushing for this idea

41:35

that then Congress did. legislate that

41:38

the United States should not sell

41:40

weapons to a country engaged in

41:42

gross violations of human rights. And

41:45

this is why the human rights

41:47

reports exist. And one thing that

41:49

was ironic is while I was

41:52

at the State Department working in

41:54

the Human Rights Office, a huge

41:56

part of our time was was

41:59

putting together these human rights reports,

42:01

there was never any acknowledgement of

42:03

the idea that the reason Congress

42:06

mandated these reports in the first

42:08

place was to determine a country's

42:10

eligibility for weapon sales. Instead, the

42:13

reports were sort of seen as

42:15

an end in and of themselves,

42:17

that they're useful for NGOs, which

42:20

is, you know, that that may

42:22

well be, but the original reason

42:24

Congress required them had to do

42:27

with weapon sales and yet they've

42:29

never been used for that purpose.

42:32

So, you know, for me as

42:34

someone who had gone into state

42:36

and was working on this to

42:39

then come out and look more

42:41

into the history of it and

42:43

to just develop a better understanding

42:46

of what the law actually says

42:48

here, I mean in many ways

42:50

it's not that surprising and maybe,

42:53

you know, shifting to Israel because

42:55

Israel is such a glaring example

42:57

of where we have actually relatively

43:00

clear laws on the books that

43:02

we simply ignore. But that's also

43:04

the case for so many other

43:07

countries. You think of US support

43:09

for Saudi Arabia or the UAE

43:11

or Egypt, and I focus on

43:14

the Middle East, but obviously it's

43:16

not limited to the Middle East.

43:18

Where the US government is is

43:21

happy to call out the human

43:23

rights abuses of adversaries like Iran

43:25

or Syria because we're not endangering

43:28

weapon sales to those countries. But

43:30

we are, the State Department or

43:32

the U.S. government is much less

43:35

interested in publicly calling out human

43:37

rights abuses by the Israelis, by

43:39

the Saudis, the Emirati, the Egyptians,

43:42

because A, you know, that might

43:44

necessitate. legal measures and a shift

43:46

in policy. But it's just seen

43:49

as not actually conducive to US

43:51

national security because these partnerships are

43:53

seen as more important, especially now

43:56

in this context of great power

43:58

competition, which was a leading motivator

44:00

for the Biden administration, arguably. still

44:03

for Trump, although under Trump, because

44:05

he's all over the place, it's

44:07

less coherent. Sometimes hard to parse,

44:10

but clearly, I mean, China is

44:12

still a major concern for Trump

44:14

as it was for Biden. Yeah,

44:17

and we have never, never successfully,

44:19

since the passing of these laws,

44:21

as you write, successfully blocked weapon

44:24

sales with these laws. So there's

44:26

this window dressing or treated as

44:28

such by the Senate and that

44:31

has to do with that broad

44:33

industry, the military industrial complex, how

44:35

much it is a major part

44:38

of our economy. And Israel, let's

44:40

pull up this second chart here

44:42

that Anel has in her paper.

44:45

This is figure two, looking at

44:47

US military aid to Israel, starting

44:49

in 1959 through 2024. You'll be

44:52

able to see how it jumps

44:54

off the screen after the October

44:56

7th attacks to 17.9 billion, but

44:59

you can see how... We really

45:01

did maintain like just a baseline

45:03

level of support for Israel from

45:06

the 90s on. I mean there's

45:08

some short increases and you can

45:10

see that in conjunction with the

45:13

two wars that the United States

45:15

started in the Middle East Afghanistan

45:17

and Iraq, but that line goes

45:20

way way up. I mean Israel

45:22

support peaked at 14 billion. And

45:24

that was what, 1980? Now it's

45:27

at nearly 18 billion in the

45:29

wake of October 7th and to

45:31

help support their genocide of Palestinians.

45:34

Can you talk a little bit

45:36

about Israel's role in maintaining a

45:38

primacy for the United States? What

45:41

do people view Israel as from

45:43

a... policy strategic perspective and like

45:45

we've speculated on the show about

45:48

its strategic placement in the Suez,

45:50

the fact that we need somebody

45:52

in the Middle East who's directly

45:55

aligned with us functioning as basically

45:57

our colony in the Middle East

45:59

because we don't want China to

46:02

have influence in that area and

46:04

we use to we use military

46:06

force to to beat them back

46:09

basically. But what is your understanding

46:11

of it? How do how the

46:13

people in government view Israel's role

46:16

in making sure that the United

46:18

States is still the world superpower,

46:20

which by the way, isn't happening

46:23

anymore and is like 20 years

46:25

out of date and is never

46:27

returning? Well, I mean, when it

46:30

does come to military spending and

46:32

our military footprint, that is the

46:34

one place where sort of the

46:37

US. maintains this sort of superpower

46:39

status. And it out also when

46:41

weapons fails, you know, the US

46:44

has been the leading arms dealer

46:46

of the world since 1950, and

46:48

that doesn't look like it's going

46:51

to change any time soon. I

46:53

mean, as far as the perception

46:55

of Israel, I think that this

46:58

is so often used as a

47:00

justification for US, the sort of

47:02

unconditional and exorbitant levels of support

47:05

the US provides to Israel. But

47:07

the US has a massive... presence

47:09

in the Middle East. We have

47:12

bases all over. I mean, you

47:14

think also at the peak of

47:16

the US presence in the region

47:19

during the wars in Iraq and

47:21

Afghanistan and just, you know, the

47:23

vast numbers. So like whether or

47:26

not Israel was part of that

47:28

equation, like it really didn't matter,

47:30

you know, the US mobilized to

47:33

invade Afghanistan. In many ways, this

47:35

notion that kind of Israel is

47:37

the unsinkable aircraft carrier, you know,

47:40

is what I've heard some people

47:42

refer to it as. But again,

47:44

the US has massive numbers of

47:47

troops. around the region in countries

47:49

that are very happy to host

47:51

us, you know, whether it's Saudi

47:54

Arabia or Qatar, the UAE, I

47:56

mean, you think about the massive

47:58

military footprint in the Middle East.

48:01

In contrast, Israel is an issue

48:03

of domestic policy. You know, the

48:05

power of the Israel lobby is

48:08

informed by the American Jewish community,

48:10

but much more by the American

48:12

evangelical community, by the American evangelical

48:15

community, by the American evangelical community,

48:17

by the American evangelical community, operate

48:19

under the biblically informed belief that

48:22

the Jews need to return, you

48:24

know, need to be present in

48:26

Israel for the Messiah to return.

48:29

I mean, this is... And a

48:31

majority of them die in that

48:33

instance. I feel like I wish

48:36

one reporter would ask, one reporter.

48:38

Like, I'm sorry to cut you

48:40

off here, but like, I was

48:43

watching CNN, God helped me last

48:45

night, and Scott Jennings is debating

48:47

this, this guy about anti-Semitism wearing

48:50

the Israeli hostage pin. It's like,

48:52

could someone have the balls to

48:54

say, I don't know what his

48:57

religion is, but what is your

48:59

stake in it? Americans have to

49:01

explain this, if they have to

49:04

actually get into the nitty gritty

49:06

of it, you are calling for

49:09

like mass extermination of Jews in

49:11

your biblical end-time prophecy. Right, right.

49:13

And they're generally pretty open about,

49:16

you know, this is what the

49:18

Bible says. I mean, what's wild,

49:20

and I may have brought this

49:23

up before because it's still just,

49:25

I find it mind-boggling, is that

49:27

even people like Bill Clinton stating

49:30

these kinds of talking points, the

49:32

idea that well God gave them

49:34

this land. And it's like, are

49:37

we basing our foreign policy on

49:39

biblical, like is that really what

49:41

you want? Because if we're going

49:44

back to that, that is completely

49:46

contradictory to our entire constitution. You

49:48

know, like, that is not what

49:51

this country was. up to be.

49:53

And so just the ways in

49:55

which Israel is sort of this

49:58

this unconditional support you know that

50:00

that insane level of support that

50:02

that that graph shows which again

50:05

only goes up to October of

50:07

last year and doesn't account for

50:09

money sent since then including under

50:12

the Biden administration and credit to

50:14

Stephen Semler for for that excellent

50:16

graph that we used. It's sort

50:19

of justified by like, well, this

50:21

is necessary to our foreign policy,

50:23

when really it's just a matter

50:26

of domestic policy, which is somewhat

50:28

similar to understanding the power of

50:30

the military industrial complex, or even

50:33

as you said, you know, weapons

50:35

production or military defense production is

50:37

such an important part of our

50:40

economy, but in fact, it's not

50:42

actually that big. It's just that

50:44

they have a very powerful lobby.

50:47

And so when you have these

50:49

massive wars, the CEOs of these

50:51

companies, the shareholders of these companies,

50:54

make so much money, but they

50:56

maintain this myth that this is

50:58

a core, you know, this is

51:01

core to America's, you know, labor,

51:03

you know, if you support labor,

51:05

you support American labor, you have

51:08

to support weapons production, which is

51:10

really not true. And in part,

51:12

just because when you actually break

51:15

it down and look at things

51:17

like, where is weapons production happening,

51:19

These districts are more likely to

51:22

deal with higher levels of poverty.

51:24

Like these are not jobs that

51:26

are that are kind of bringing

51:29

people up by their bootstraps. And

51:31

if you look dollar for dollar

51:33

at something like if the US

51:36

government invested in something like education

51:38

or green energy or health care

51:40

dollar for dollar as much as

51:43

they sort of our industrial policy

51:45

invests in the military industrial complex

51:47

and supporting you know subsidizing weapons

51:50

production the the outcome like the

51:52

return on investment would be so

51:54

much higher for our economy as

51:57

well as for these workers themselves.

51:59

So again, it's this sort of

52:01

myth that the US has to

52:04

continue to support Israel because it's

52:06

necessary for our approach to the

52:08

Middle East and our ability to

52:11

sort of maintain our military footprint

52:13

in the Middle East, which is

52:15

nonsense. And this idea that the

52:18

US, you know, that it's in

52:20

our US national interest to continue

52:22

to provide. you know, now a

52:25

trillion dollars a year to the

52:27

DOD and defense contractors to manufacture

52:29

these weapons because that's good for

52:32

the American, like the American worker,

52:34

like both of those are just

52:36

are false. And so, and that

52:39

kind of both of them are

52:41

also still justified under this notion

52:43

that that without the United States,

52:46

human rights would fall by the

52:48

wayside, you know. It is the

52:50

United States to hold other countries

52:53

accountable for human rights or that

52:55

it is up to U.S. military

52:57

power, you know, without U.S. military

53:00

primacy, you know, China and Russia

53:02

would be in charge and, you

53:04

know, clearly they don't care about

53:07

human rights. And just like, well,

53:09

clearly our country doesn't care about

53:11

human rights. So... Who believes that

53:14

anymore? Besides, I don't know, like,

53:16

like, people's parents. people's parents, so

53:18

many people at the stage department.

53:21

And you know, maybe this report

53:23

was really just intended for my

53:25

former colleagues. But this notion of

53:28

American exceptionalism, I do think motivates

53:30

people, you know, to continue to

53:32

do this work. And you know,

53:35

for all that I'm shocked and

53:37

horrified by everything the Trump administration

53:39

is doing, I do think it

53:42

may be useful for stripping away

53:44

some of these illusions and making

53:46

it harder for people to continue

53:49

to lie to themselves about the

53:51

role the US plays in the

53:53

world. Which underlie it and so

53:56

many people still kind of did.

53:58

and I think would have continued

54:00

to do if we'd had President

54:03

Harris. Yeah, I mean, and that

54:05

is, I guess, the cost of

54:07

enlightening people is not worth the

54:10

bodies. I mean, I don't, I

54:12

can't make that calculation, but if

54:14

we're looking for ways to move

54:17

forward, that's one of them, right?

54:19

And I guess that's where... We

54:21

can talk more about how do

54:24

we democratize this stuff? And it's

54:26

just when we're selling democracy to

54:28

the public, people feel like there's

54:31

no democratic process about our foreign

54:33

policy and they're correct. Like so

54:35

when Trump talks about the deep

54:38

state and he makes it about,

54:40

oh, woe is me. But the

54:42

real deep state is the stuff

54:45

that covers up our human rights

54:47

atrocitiesities that we fund. across the

54:49

world as the number one weapons

54:52

exporter. Can we just put up

54:54

even this third graph here? Just

54:56

because this, if you scroll down,

54:59

this just shows another, that one

55:01

with the map. Sorry, I should

55:03

say map. You put this out

55:06

there. Just the sheer scope of

55:08

how, of where the United States

55:10

has sold arms. You see every

55:13

country basically there, except for some...

55:15

in Africa and Greenland, but we

55:17

are that that functions almost as

55:20

like a military base already. We

55:22

have a significant... Right, so we

55:24

filled them to Denmark, so like

55:27

technically... Right, like what are they,

55:29

there's, exactly, but that's the bit,

55:31

there it is, Iran, China, Russia,

55:34

and that's basically it, that's, and

55:36

Yemen, is that what I'm seeing

55:38

there? I know we've sold Somalia.

55:41

Yeah I'm bad at maps I

55:43

shouldn't have even taken a guess.

55:46

I'm not a great visual learner.

55:48

Anyway so I love having these

55:50

because it does help me just

55:53

think about it like Austria you

55:55

see all over the place that's

55:57

where we've sold arm. just since

56:00

the start of 2001. This is

56:02

our effort to maintain primacy even

56:04

though as we're losing economic power

56:07

to China and Trump seems to

56:09

be escalating that. Just your thoughts

56:11

and now. Right. Yeah. I mean

56:14

this is something that I remember

56:16

speaking with someone on the National

56:18

Security Council about the idea that

56:21

the only place the US is

56:23

able to maintain our status as

56:25

number one is weapon sales. And

56:28

so we just have to double

56:30

down on that as opposed to

56:32

saying, well, actually, no, as the

56:35

global order becomes more multipolar, it

56:37

is increasingly in America's interest to

56:39

avoid unnecessary wars. You know, something

56:42

like the war in Iraq that

56:44

we foolishly, you know, under false

56:46

pretenses, you know, engaged in was

56:49

somewhat possible. You know, the reason

56:51

we did something like that was

56:53

because as kind of the global

56:56

hedgeman after the Cold War, we

56:58

were capable of doing that in

57:00

a way that now we just

57:03

can't really make those came, like

57:05

these wars of choice are so

57:07

much more costly and arguably they

57:10

were extremely costly at that time

57:12

too, but in a way that

57:14

Americans were still kind of able

57:17

to ignore them. Even though increasingly

57:19

I do think that like this

57:21

is part of what Trump has

57:24

has tapped into is the idea

57:26

that Americans are tired of these

57:28

endless unnecessary wars which I hope

57:31

seems to be informing the reason

57:33

he's willing to engage in talks

57:35

with Iran about a possible. That's

57:38

encouraging because it's almost a it's

57:40

almost a blessing in disguise that

57:42

the Biden administration didn't re-engage because

57:45

Trump would have scrapped it anyway

57:47

because he just cares about being

57:49

they could just copy paste the

57:52

JCPOA into an email and and

57:54

print it out and have him

57:56

sign it and he would declare

57:59

victory and that would be amazing.

58:01

for all of us. Totally. That's

58:03

a very good point. Yeah, if

58:06

Biden had actually just kind of

58:08

like snapped his fingers and re-entered,

58:10

but he could have done the

58:13

way he, you know, re-entered like

58:15

the Paris Accords. But you're right

58:17

that he would have, we would

58:20

have been back. Well, he's a

58:22

Zionist, so that's the problem, and

58:24

like that's where Obama's probably best

58:27

achievement in my estimation was the

58:29

Iran nuclear deal because we now

58:31

know looking back like what the

58:34

what the Israel lot what he

58:36

was facing with the Israel lobby

58:38

and we saw net and yaw

58:41

who tried to put public pressure

58:43

on Obama at the time with

58:45

that PowerPoint presentation with all those

58:48

that false information about how Iran

58:50

was cheating on the deal which

58:52

wasn't happening and Obama didn't cave

58:55

Biden didn't reenter because he didn't

58:57

agree with Obama right right exactly

58:59

exactly exactly yeah but he backing

59:02

up to your point about like

59:04

the lack of democracy in US

59:06

foreign policy. I mean, this is

59:09

also a big part of what

59:11

Quincy tries to do. We have

59:13

a whole program called Democratizing foreign

59:16

policy, which is partly just about

59:18

tracing the influence of dark money

59:20

in our, you know, in Congress

59:23

and in foreign policy decision making,

59:25

you know, especially like foreign lobbies.

59:27

But I do think that I

59:30

mean for all that it has

59:32

taken a genocide to get us

59:34

here, which is appalling, I do

59:37

think that people are waking up

59:39

to some of this. And you

59:41

think about, you know, the ways

59:44

that for so long the Israel

59:46

lobby in cahoots with sort of

59:48

the defense lobby were able to

59:51

maintain this bipartisan unconditional support for

59:53

Israel and to maintain the censorship.

59:55

Even someone like me studying, you

59:58

know, getting a PhD focused on

1:00:00

the Middle East, I was warned

1:00:02

away from studying. Palestine because it

1:00:05

was described as a career killer

1:00:07

by a scholar who studied Palestine

1:00:09

who like you know had was

1:00:12

able to do it and come

1:00:14

through and have tenure on the

1:00:16

other side, but it was like

1:00:19

it's just not worth it. And

1:00:21

so the fact that they were

1:00:23

able to maintain that for so

1:00:26

long without kind of the coercion

1:00:28

showing and that now now they

1:00:30

have to show. like what it

1:00:33

is actually that maintains that censorship

1:00:35

of support for Palestine and it

1:00:37

is police brutality. It is deporting

1:00:40

people who express solidarity with Palestine.

1:00:42

It is taking away funding and

1:00:44

defunding universities that provide like Middle

1:00:47

East studies program, you know, like

1:00:49

Professor, you know, people like Rosie

1:00:51

Bashir at Harvard who doesn't even

1:00:54

study this stuff, but has like

1:00:56

lost her tenured job. Like again,

1:00:58

I'm an academic, so I'm especially

1:01:01

alarmed by the assaults on universities

1:01:03

and academic freedom. but also just

1:01:05

the assault on freedom of speech

1:01:08

writ large. Or the millions of

1:01:10

dollars poured into the primaries to

1:01:12

oust Jamal Bowman and Corey Bush

1:01:15

from Congress. And that Democrats didn't

1:01:17

speak up for them is just

1:01:19

appalling. But I do think that

1:01:22

like because they are losing the

1:01:24

narrative and because actually At this

1:01:26

point, the pro-Palestinian side has the

1:01:29

numbers, but they're, you know, they

1:01:31

are intimidating people. The Trump administration

1:01:33

is scaring people. People are understanding,

1:01:36

especially non-citizens, are understandably unwilling to

1:01:38

speak up in, as maybe they

1:01:40

used to be. And so I

1:01:43

do think it is up to

1:01:45

American citizens to speak up about

1:01:47

this. And again, it's not just

1:01:50

about Palestine, it's about free speech

1:01:52

writ large, because we know that

1:01:54

it's just going to get worse.

1:01:57

This is what authoritarian governments do

1:01:59

all over the world. We know

1:02:01

Trump is a bully. And if

1:02:04

you stand up to a bully,

1:02:06

he's less. likely to come after

1:02:08

you again, but if you show

1:02:11

that, oh, yeah, okay, I can

1:02:13

be intimidated by this, it's just

1:02:15

going to get worse. So, you

1:02:18

know, I just, I hope that

1:02:20

people are, are not losing hope

1:02:23

because I do think that this

1:02:25

is the time to stand up

1:02:27

and speak out, again, whether it's

1:02:30

about Palestine or just about the

1:02:32

assault on our constitutional rights, including

1:02:34

the rights of non-citizens. Like freedom

1:02:37

of speech isn't limited to citizens.

1:02:39

It's just, you know, Congress shall

1:02:41

not make a law abridging the

1:02:44

freedom of speech. Right. So I

1:02:46

know it can be really disheartening

1:02:48

for people and it is frightening

1:02:51

and I recognize that, but I

1:02:53

do think those of us who

1:02:55

are citizens have an obligation to

1:02:58

stand up and to try to

1:03:00

to slow down this slide into

1:03:02

autocracy. Absolutely. Lastly, before I let

1:03:05

you go in now. Just back

1:03:07

to the Iran news and the

1:03:09

fact that the Trump administration is

1:03:12

re-engaging in these talks under Steve

1:03:14

Whitkov. What's your impression of him?

1:03:16

Because, like, it's not as bad

1:03:19

as I thought so far. Remember,

1:03:21

he kind of strong-armed Israel to

1:03:23

get that ceasefire done. The fake

1:03:26

ceasefire that's just lasted for a

1:03:28

short period of time, but it

1:03:30

was... It was more than what

1:03:33

was achieved previously, at least for

1:03:35

a short period of time. And

1:03:37

like, the posture of where America,

1:03:40

you're the client state versus Biden's

1:03:42

weakness when it came to Nen

1:03:44

Yahoo is something that's different. Wyckoff

1:03:47

went to the Middle East, I

1:03:49

think it was during a Jewish

1:03:51

holiday or it was a time

1:03:54

off and he said, you're going

1:03:56

to meet with me no matter

1:03:58

what, because we're the United States.

1:04:01

And now it seems like these

1:04:03

Iran talks are not going terribly.

1:04:05

Like what's your impression of what

1:04:08

this guy's deal is. Yeah, it's

1:04:10

interesting. Someone had asked, you know,

1:04:12

do we just need more Steve

1:04:15

Whitcoughs? And I was, my response

1:04:17

was no, it's not him. He's,

1:04:19

you know, Trump is empowering him

1:04:22

to speak for Trump and the

1:04:24

US government on things like, we

1:04:26

expect you, Netanyahu to abide by

1:04:29

the terms of the ceasefire. in

1:04:31

order for Trump to have his

1:04:33

inauguration, and we're not going to

1:04:36

have dead babies coming through the

1:04:38

headlines to the extent that they

1:04:40

do. Well, there are PR people.

1:04:43

Trump is a savant at one

1:04:45

thing in its public relations. Exactly.

1:04:47

Exactly. And so not only did

1:04:50

he clearly not want that distracting

1:04:52

from his moment of glory, but

1:04:54

also to show that he could

1:04:57

achieve what Biden hadn't. which was,

1:04:59

you know, Biden for months saying

1:05:01

we're working tirelessly towards a ceasefire,

1:05:04

never actually getting there, and then

1:05:06

Trump being able to come in

1:05:08

and, as you said, you know,

1:05:11

insisting, no, you're going to meet

1:05:13

with us and you're going to

1:05:15

stick to this. Unfortunately, I think

1:05:18

just the political will evaporated, you

1:05:20

know, Trump wanted this mostly to

1:05:22

show that he could get it

1:05:25

when Biden couldn't, but he wasn't

1:05:27

committed to actually maintaining that. And

1:05:29

this I think speaks to, again,

1:05:32

like the influence of very, very

1:05:34

wealthy Zionist donors, people like Miriamadelson

1:05:36

and others that have given him

1:05:39

hundreds of millions of dollars over

1:05:41

the years. But on Iran, you

1:05:43

know, similarly, the fact that Trump

1:05:46

is, again, tapping into this to

1:05:48

Americans' frustration with endless and unnecessary

1:05:50

wars in the Middle East. So

1:05:53

not wanting to do Netanyahu's bidding

1:05:55

to get to fight Iran on

1:05:57

Israel's behalf. And in general like

1:06:00

that that meeting when Netanyahu and

1:06:02

Trump when Netanyahu just recently was

1:06:04

back in Washington, and Netanyahu was

1:06:07

hoping to get Trump to lift

1:06:09

the tariffs on Israel, which he

1:06:11

didn't do, he wanted Trump to

1:06:14

speak out against Turkey, and instead

1:06:16

Trump said, no, like, everyone's my

1:06:18

buddy, and you need to be

1:06:21

reasonable. Yep. I mean, unfortunately, on

1:06:23

Gaza, Netanyahu continues

1:06:25

to do and get whatever he

1:06:28

wants with full U.S. support, including

1:06:30

maintaining a full siege. Nothing has

1:06:32

gotten into Gaza since March 2nd,

1:06:35

and people are starving. And Israel

1:06:37

is successfully implementing its policy of

1:06:39

either killing all the people in

1:06:42

Gaza. or forcing them to leave.

1:06:44

And you know, there's that new

1:06:46

branch of the Israeli government set

1:06:49

up to facilitate people's departure. So

1:06:51

it's, I am heartened by the

1:06:53

fact that Trump is not willing

1:06:56

to bow to Netanyahu the way

1:06:58

Biden was, but unfortunately on Gaza,

1:07:00

he seems to be perfectly fine

1:07:03

with the genocide. Yeah, and I

1:07:05

think he sees it as a

1:07:07

real estate opportunity. I legitimately think

1:07:10

that. And, and so, and he

1:07:12

also doesn't respect, if people are

1:07:14

poor, he can't empathize with them,

1:07:17

like, you know, an immiserate, he'll,

1:07:19

he'll side with, he's drawn to

1:07:21

people in power. It's why then

1:07:24

Yahoo's not getting what he wants

1:07:26

with the everyone thing, because, because

1:07:28

Trump. Trump's inspired by Erdogan in

1:07:31

the same way he's inspired by

1:07:33

Buchale, by Orban, in Hungary, by

1:07:35

Putin, in Russia. Like, he likes

1:07:38

these kinds of people, and so

1:07:40

I think he's disgusted by the

1:07:43

Palestinians probably because he perceives them

1:07:45

as weak because of their victims.

1:07:47

Yeah. Yeah. And I do think

1:07:50

that Trump is sensitive to public

1:07:52

sentiment, other than Americans making clear

1:07:54

that they reject this. Because I

1:07:57

do think that Trump is sensitive

1:07:59

to public sentiment. And so to

1:08:01

the extent that people speak out

1:08:04

against this, and I've been heartened

1:08:06

to see prominent. Christian commentators on

1:08:08

social media posting, you know, horrifying

1:08:11

images of children in Gaza. You

1:08:13

know, just the way that people

1:08:15

are still paying attention, my hope

1:08:18

is that there are enough people

1:08:20

on the right who, maybe I

1:08:22

don't agree with on any number

1:08:25

of issues, but on killing children,

1:08:27

we can agree. We don't want

1:08:29

the U.S. But sending billions of

1:08:32

dollars. you know, don't want our

1:08:34

money, our taxpayer dollars, who today

1:08:36

is texting, going to kill innocent

1:08:39

children in Gaza. So, you know,

1:08:41

for me, and at Quincy, which

1:08:43

is an, you know, an organization

1:08:46

where we, we've tried to work

1:08:48

with the right and the left

1:08:50

against unnecessary US military interventions, trying

1:08:53

to reach out to those on

1:08:55

the right, you know, which I

1:08:57

do think writ large, I know

1:09:00

it's hard, we're a very polarized

1:09:02

country, you know. I get it

1:09:04

not wanting to talk to your

1:09:07

crazy aunt or whatever who's a

1:09:09

trumper. But yeah, but dead children,

1:09:12

you know, like if we can't

1:09:14

agree. We've shown this chart from

1:09:16

Pew. Yeah, we've shown this chart

1:09:19

from Pew now six times or

1:09:21

something in the last few weeks

1:09:23

that Republicans from 2022. to 2025,

1:09:26

ages 18 to 49, there's been

1:09:28

a 15-point shift in negative views

1:09:30

of Israel. But thank you Matt

1:09:33

for, oh, that's not the right

1:09:35

one. Close, though. It's the one

1:09:37

on negative views of Israel have

1:09:40

risen. And then you see that

1:09:42

it's now 71% of Democrats age

1:09:44

18 to 49 have a negative

1:09:47

view. And 69% of Democrats lean

1:09:49

Democrats overall. But that shift for

1:09:51

Republicans basically stayed the same if

1:09:54

you're an older Republican and you're

1:09:56

50 years old, you love Israel.

1:09:58

You know, they like the ethnostate

1:10:01

supremacist part and the killing of

1:10:03

Muslims part. But that's significant. 15-point

1:10:05

shift from 18 to 49. And

1:10:08

Candace Owens is like one of

1:10:10

the top political podcasts in the

1:10:12

country. I am concerned about anti-Semitism.

1:10:15

Like I'm deeply, deeply concerned about

1:10:17

that and how do we appeal

1:10:19

to the right on the basis

1:10:22

of not wanting to kill children.

1:10:24

I'm more comfortable going at it

1:10:26

with the Dave Smith Libertarian thing

1:10:29

about our tax dollars than going

1:10:31

to Candace Owens, because like I

1:10:34

genuinely think they're starting to be

1:10:36

some real... anti-Jewish hatred on the

1:10:38

right that not that there wasn't

1:10:41

before but in particularly like in

1:10:43

on this issue in particular on

1:10:45

Israel. Right well and this goes

1:10:48

back to some of what we

1:10:50

are saying earlier of you know

1:10:52

when the when you have kind

1:10:55

of the Zionist and the evangelicals

1:10:57

on the same page and but

1:10:59

also you think about Israel's outreach

1:11:02

to the far right in Europe

1:11:04

for example or people like Victor

1:11:06

Orban. these extreme anti-Semites coming out

1:11:09

of the tradition of the Nazis

1:11:11

and the other artistic parties that

1:11:13

murdered six million Jews. The AFD

1:11:16

in Germany. Exactly. And yet the

1:11:18

Israel is willing to align to

1:11:20

ally them itself with them or

1:11:23

that the Netanyahu government is willing.

1:11:25

And it's useful for them as

1:11:27

well because they can say, well,

1:11:30

you mean Israel likes us? How

1:11:32

could we be anti-Semitic? How could

1:11:34

we be anti-Semitic? So it is

1:11:37

deeply concerning, but at the same

1:11:39

time when you have anti-Semitic being

1:11:41

thrown around the same way, you

1:11:44

know. sort of anti-communist, you know,

1:11:46

the ways in which these terms

1:11:48

start to lose their meaning, or

1:11:51

even the notion of like a

1:11:53

terrorist, the way, you know, the

1:11:55

Biden, probably they did too, but

1:11:58

I'm thinking of the Trump administration

1:12:00

referring to several of these people

1:12:03

who were mistakenly deported as terrorists,

1:12:05

or even with Bekeli saying that

1:12:07

yesterday, these words start to lose

1:12:10

their meaning, and something like anti-Semitism

1:12:12

remains a huge problem. And to

1:12:14

treat it seriously and to be

1:12:17

able to recognize it for when

1:12:19

it actually is a hatred of

1:12:21

Jewish people, as opposed to legitimate

1:12:24

criticism of a government engaging in

1:12:26

war crimes, atrocities, and genocide and

1:12:28

otherwise violating international law, as well

1:12:31

as US laws and criticizing those

1:12:33

policies, those are two different things.

1:12:35

You're undermining the reality, you know,

1:12:38

the need to actually be serious

1:12:40

about we have to be careful

1:12:42

of the ease with which the

1:12:45

world and Europe and Europeans derived

1:12:47

societies have historically It's been very

1:12:49

easy to sort of go after

1:12:52

the Jewish people and and target

1:12:54

them and blame them. We've seen

1:12:56

that for centuries. Well Exactly, so

1:12:59

it's concerning. I mean, all of

1:13:01

it were in dark times, but

1:13:03

as always, I appreciate you coming

1:13:06

on, Anel. You can check out

1:13:08

her work at the Quincy Institute,

1:13:10

including this particular brief, which is

1:13:13

a great read. It's like 27,

1:13:15

28 pages. It's called Under Primacy,

1:13:17

Weapons Sales will always supersede human

1:13:20

rights, and you can find it

1:13:22

on the Quincy Institute website and

1:13:24

on your social media. Anel Sheline,

1:13:27

thanks so much. Thank you so

1:13:29

much for all the work that

1:13:32

you do tirelessly to turn into

1:13:34

all this. Well, thank you and

1:13:36

I'll always appreciate your work and

1:13:39

good to talk to you. Thank

1:13:41

you. Thank you. All right, with

1:13:43

that, we are going to wrap

1:13:46

up the free part of this

1:13:48

program and head into the fun,

1:13:50

question mark, fun slash fascist half.

1:13:53

Oh, brought your mic down. Well,

1:13:55

yeah. Try not to say anything

1:13:57

to get the show banned from

1:14:00

YouTube. Half, yeah. We'll see. Tune

1:14:02

in. If you can become a

1:14:04

member, you'll get access to the

1:14:07

fun slash fascist half. and the

1:14:09

say, try to not say anything

1:14:11

that will get us kicked off

1:14:14

social media have. And you can

1:14:16

see whether or not we're successful

1:14:18

if you go to join the

1:14:21

majority report.com. You can support this

1:14:23

show, you can become a member,

1:14:25

and then you'll be able to

1:14:28

I am the show, where we'll

1:14:30

read I am like this one

1:14:32

from Teacher Dan, 100% on Trump's

1:14:35

lack of empathy for the poor

1:14:37

and his desire for another Trump

1:14:39

tower in a beautiful location. Teacher

1:14:42

Dan 20 also adds. But all

1:14:44

he needs to show up to

1:14:46

a show up to a pro

1:14:49

wrestling event get his public sentiment

1:14:51

fixed. I think that's true because

1:14:53

I think he's less tethered to

1:14:56

public sentiment this time around. This

1:14:58

is somebody who's behaving. He's not

1:15:01

going to have to run in

1:15:03

another election. I think all the

1:15:05

stuff about the third term is,

1:15:08

you know, hot air. Yeah, I

1:15:10

mean, but even... even if it's

1:15:12

like the the threat of it

1:15:15

or whatever i mean he feels

1:15:17

like he's not gonna have to

1:15:19

run in another election again so

1:15:22

why does it matter and he

1:15:24

doesn't care if the republicans like

1:15:26

have success. I guess he probably

1:15:29

cares in the second term, or

1:15:31

the second half of his presidency,

1:15:33

if the Republicans have the House

1:15:36

and the Senate, but they're losing

1:15:38

the House. I mean, that's not

1:15:40

a question in my view. I

1:15:43

hope so. I mean, I don't

1:15:45

make predictions. Sorry. Why am I

1:15:47

doing it again? Because you're addicted

1:15:50

to prognosticating. Oh, I love those.

1:15:52

Well, the past metrics say so.

1:15:54

I mean, just don't look at

1:15:57

my past metrics. Matt, what's happening

1:15:59

on Left Reckoning? Stop me from,

1:16:01

you know, falling on my sword.

1:16:04

Grace Thurvelson will talk about Jared

1:16:06

Polis, what's his deal, Colorado in

1:16:08

general, and it's an anti-Vac stuff,

1:16:11

which, speaking of things that give

1:16:13

my blood pressure into like the

1:16:15

cardio range, just thinking about. So

1:16:18

yeah, we're going to be talking

1:16:20

about that stuff tonight. What is

1:16:23

Jared Polis's deal? Is he running

1:16:25

for that, for Michael Bennett's Senate

1:16:27

seat? He's an abundance guy who

1:16:30

like, I'm not sure that's a

1:16:32

good question. Because Bennett's running for

1:16:34

governor. Right now he's the type

1:16:37

of guy who says, look I

1:16:39

love all these, I love all

1:16:41

these pro-worker bills, but what about

1:16:44

the poor contractor who might want

1:16:46

to stiff, a worker who... you

1:16:48

know like Donald Trump type capitalist

1:16:51

protection act which says I'm not

1:16:53

going to sign these labor bills

1:16:55

because someone might want to stiff

1:16:58

you and we don't want the

1:17:00

law to be able to make

1:17:02

them pay people who like did

1:17:05

your landscaping so I mean he's

1:17:07

an anti vexed like maha type

1:17:09

of guy like you know total

1:17:12

freak he's a freak polis polis

1:17:14

was a member of the Liberty

1:17:16

caucus as a Democrat in the

1:17:19

house which is a far-right caucus

1:17:21

or what you know a far-right

1:17:23

caucus I guess it's still must

1:17:26

still be around a liberty Democrat

1:17:28

that sounds very clan adjacent honestly

1:17:30

and yeah so that's weird so

1:17:33

he's a rich guy right he's

1:17:35

abundant sort of I'm not sure

1:17:37

if what his wealth is but

1:17:40

I know that he basically is

1:17:42

kind of like a libertarian Democrat

1:17:44

which who cares that almost hostility

1:17:47

right well I mean in that

1:17:49

sense like it's Colorado has kind

1:17:52

of followed Pennsylvania's lead in like

1:17:54

becoming a blue state fairly like

1:17:56

solidly over the course of the

1:17:59

past 10 years or so. but

1:18:01

electing just horrible

1:18:03

people. And it was the only

1:18:05

Democratic member of the Libertarian Conservative

1:18:08

Liberty Caucus and was the third

1:18:10

wealthiest member of Congress with an

1:18:12

estimated net worth of $122.6 million.

1:18:14

What a shock that that guy

1:18:16

would show interest in the abundance?

1:18:18

I'm so surprised. Or what we

1:18:20

could call it the, well maybe

1:18:23

I'll hold my fire on some

1:18:25

of that. All right. Save it

1:18:27

for the fun half. See you there. Save

1:18:29

it for a couple weeks. Yeah. Okay,

1:18:32

Emma, please. Well, I just, I

1:18:34

feel that my voice is sorely

1:18:37

lacking in the majority report. Wait,

1:18:39

whoa! Look, Sam is unpopular. I

1:18:41

do deserve a vacation at Disney

1:18:43

World. So, ladies and gentlemen, it

1:18:45

is my pleasure to welcome Emma,

1:18:47

to the show. It is Thursday.

1:18:49

Yeah, I think you need to

1:18:52

talk over for Sam, but that's

1:18:54

cool. Sir, I'm gonna, I'm gonna,

1:18:56

I'm gonna pause you right there.

1:18:58

We do. You

1:19:00

can't encourage

1:19:02

Emma to

1:19:04

lay like

1:19:06

this. I

1:19:08

just think

1:19:10

that what

1:19:14

you

1:19:16

get

1:19:18

to

1:19:20

Tim

1:19:23

Poole

1:19:25

was

1:19:27

mean. Free speech. That's not

1:19:29

what we're about here. Look

1:19:32

at how sad he's become

1:19:34

now. We shouldn't even talk

1:19:36

about it. I think you're

1:19:38

responsible. I probably am in

1:19:40

a certain way, but let's

1:19:42

get to the meltdown here.

1:19:44

Suucci and poker with the

1:19:46

boys. Oh my God. Succi.

1:19:49

I'm sorry. I'm losing my

1:19:51

fucking mind. Someone's offered with

1:19:53

turp. Succi. That's

1:20:02

not

1:20:04

what

1:20:07

we're

1:20:09

talking

1:20:12

about

1:20:14

here. It's

1:20:18

not a

1:20:20

fun job. Real thing, real thing, boss, will

1:20:22

you want to work? That's a real thing,

1:20:25

that's a real thing, that's a real thing,

1:20:27

that's a real thing, that's a real thing,

1:20:29

that's a real thing, that's a real thing,

1:20:31

that's a real thing, that's a real thing,

1:20:34

that's a real work, that's a real thing,

1:20:36

that's a real thing, To

1:20:50

her, Sushi and Parker with the

1:20:52

boy. Take it easy, to her. has

1:21:06

like the way of the world

1:21:08

on the shoulders. Susan didn't want

1:21:11

to do this show anymore! It

1:21:13

was so much easier! One of

1:21:15

the majority report was just you!

1:21:17

You're happy! Let's change the subject!

1:21:20

Rangers and Nixon, right? Now, shut

1:21:22

up! Don't want people saying reckless

1:21:24

things on your program. That's one

1:21:27

of the most difficult parts of

1:21:29

this show. Is this a

1:21:31

pro-killing podcast? So

1:21:35

wait. I

1:21:46

guess I should hand the main mic to

1:21:48

you now. You are to the right of the

1:21:50

actual monitor. We already formed Israel, dude. That's

1:22:00

an incredible theme song. I

1:22:02

bumbler. Emma Viglin, absolutely one

1:22:04

of my favorite people. Actually, not just

1:22:06

in the game, like period.