0:00

It is Monday, April 14th,

0:02

2025. My name is Emma

0:05

Bigeland in for Sam

0:07

Cedar, and this

0:09

is the five-time

0:11

award-winning majority report.

0:13

We are broadcasting

0:15

live steps. From the

0:18

industrially ravaged Gowanus

0:20

Canal in the

0:22

heartland of America,

0:25

downtown Brooklyn, USA. On

0:27

the program today, Roberto

0:29

Lovato will be with us to

0:31

talk about El Salvador and

0:34

Buchale since he's visiting the

0:36

White House, they and the

0:38

United States relationship with

0:41

El Salvador. Also on

0:43

the program, after exempting

0:45

electronics and semiconductors from

0:47

tariffs, days later, Trump

0:49

reverses. Probably because he

0:51

lost and everyone is

0:54

saying that he lost.

0:56

And China won? It

0:58

hasn't stopped China from

1:01

responding, suspending exports of

1:03

rare minerals and magnets

1:06

needed for cars and aerospace.

1:09

An overwhelming majority

1:11

of them are made in China. Trump

1:14

is causing European tourism

1:16

to fall by more

1:18

than 17% last month

1:20

compared to that month

1:22

a year ago. U.S.

1:24

tourism's a nearly $3

1:26

trillion industry. Far-right,

1:28

self-described dictator of

1:31

El Salvador Bukele, as

1:33

I mentioned, visits the

1:35

White House today. Trump

1:37

seemingly defies a Supreme

1:40

Court order to bring

1:42

back Kilmar Garcia. Rubio

1:44

says 10 more people were

1:47

sent Bukele's prison camps, still

1:49

no due process. And his

1:51

own State Department sends an

1:53

internal memo, telling their bosses

1:55

that they have no authority

1:58

to deport Tuftsuitant. Rhemesa

2:00

Ostirk. The Department of

2:03

Homeland Security has

2:05

been emailing legal

2:07

immigrants telling them

2:09

to self-deport. DHS staffers

2:12

are also reportedly receiving

2:14

lie detector tests to

2:16

root out leakers. Trump

2:18

said CBS should pay

2:20

a big price for

2:23

airing critical stories about

2:25

his Ukraine and Greenland

2:27

policies. Bernie and AOC

2:29

hold massive huge rallies in Utah

2:31

and LA over the weekend. The

2:34

LA one was their biggest ever,

2:36

Bernie's biggest ever. Wired reports

2:38

that the Social Security Administration

2:40

is moving some of

2:43

their communications to Twitter.

2:45

You know, the website

2:47

your grandma's always on. Israel

2:49

bombed the last functioning

2:51

hospital in Gaza City,

2:53

destroying parts of it. And lastly,

2:55

a man has been charged

2:58

in connection with arson at

3:00

the Pennsylvania Governor's House. I'm

3:03

clear what the motive is.

3:05

All this and more on

3:07

today's majority report. It's

3:09

a majority report Monday. And

3:12

a majority report week Sam

3:14

is off on vacation this

3:16

week, so you're stuck with

3:18

me all week, but also

3:20

Russ. Also Matt. and our wonderful

3:23

guests coming up this week.

3:25

What's up guys? Another week

3:27

of insane news and it's

3:29

just it's difficult to keep

3:31

up over the weekend. Trump

3:33

had announced some exemptions to tariffs

3:36

and now is coming out this

3:38

morning and saying, maybe not. China

3:40

is not backing down. China is

3:42

not backing down. This morning

3:44

and saying, maybe not. China is

3:46

not backing down. They suspended

3:49

in response to this

3:51

response to this. exports

3:53

of critical rare minerals

3:55

and magnets. These specific

3:58

rare minerals are are refined

4:01

exclusively in China. 90%

4:03

of the magnets are produced in

4:05

China of the ones that are

4:07

being suspended here. And this

4:09

is gonna piss off defense

4:12

contractors because they're needed

4:14

to create weapons. And

4:16

also automakers, it's a difficult

4:19

dance because you have the

4:21

UAW supportive of the tariffs

4:23

because, you know, we would

4:26

love. Of all of the

4:28

industries that are affected by

4:30

tariffs, we maybe are closest

4:32

to being able to

4:34

manufacture some of these things

4:36

domestically in the auto

4:38

industry, but it still

4:40

is insufficient because these

4:43

magnets aren't just for

4:45

EVs. They're also necessary

4:47

and gasoline powered cars

4:49

for some of the

4:51

functions like steering. So this

4:53

is going to hurt. It's going

4:56

to really hurt unless this

4:58

ends quickly, but Trump seems

5:00

to be burned by the

5:02

fact that everyone is saying

5:04

that he lost this trade war.

5:06

And it seems like Trump

5:09

was trying to almost

5:11

purposefully tank the market a

5:13

bit so that he could

5:15

lower interest rates and bully

5:17

the Fed into doing it

5:19

himself, which is one of

5:21

the only independent, the only...

5:23

last like independent part of

5:26

our financial system right the Fed and

5:28

Jerome Powell is doing what they think

5:30

is best we don't always agree with

5:33

that but Trump was trying to get

5:35

it to bend to his will and force

5:37

people maybe potentially some insecurity

5:39

so people go and buy

5:41

US Treasury bonds which is

5:43

what happens when the stock

5:45

market tanks because people are

5:47

investors are looking for a safer bet

5:49

that's not what happened Japan

5:51

started selling off US Treasury

5:54

bonds so it was a sell-off

5:56

because Trump took for

5:58

granted that people would view

6:00

the US economy as stable by

6:03

default and that's not what happened.

6:05

There was a surge in treasury

6:07

yields and people started to panic

6:10

basically. So we're in this situation

6:12

now where there's every other day

6:15

a contradicting policy and even people

6:17

in the administration can't seem to

6:19

keep up. Because at first tariffs

6:22

were negotiation tactics, but actually just

6:24

kidding their ways to generate revenue.

6:27

But actually just kidding their ways

6:29

for world leaders to come and

6:31

kiss Donald Trump's ass. I mean,

6:34

who knows what they are. It

6:36

changes on the day-to-day basis. And

6:38

the ostensible reason of we want

6:41

to reassure manufacturing is obviously a

6:43

joke because anyone that's planning a

6:46

factory will be a bit upset

6:48

that they were planning it. They

6:50

took out a loan for it

6:53

when the tariffs were high and

6:55

then Trump said, actually, never mind,

6:58

there's exceptions for this thing that

7:00

you were just going to reshore

7:02

onto American soil. Even the insecurity

7:05

that he's creating chills manufacturing without

7:07

coherent policy, it means that people

7:09

aren't going to take the time

7:12

and the years and money to

7:14

invest in America because they don't

7:17

know if this mad king is

7:19

going to change trade policy and

7:21

economic policy within 48 hours. And

7:24

they wouldn't to begin with. I

7:26

mean, Biden tried this to just

7:29

incentivizing de-risk investment. That's not enough.

7:31

Actually you need to consciously... invest

7:33

in certain sectors that you want

7:36

to grow and this sort of

7:38

thing where you expect slight changes

7:40

in tariffs to affect it all.

7:43

It's obviously a joke. It's again

7:45

just to get people to negotiate

7:48

with Trump and also to isolate

7:50

China. And China actually very much

7:52

strengthens its position during this period,

7:55

which was as predictable as anything

7:57

if you have an adult in

8:00

the room and not a guy

8:02

like Peter Navarro who is... one

8:04

of the most obvious cranks in

8:07

the world. We're talking like not

8:09

even a step up from Sydney

8:11

Powell. coming up with these bizarre

8:14

AI-generated trade deficit mathematical equations that

8:16

it's even too generous to call

8:19

the mathematical equation given how faulty

8:21

it is. But yesterday on the

8:23

Sunday shows, Trump sends out his

8:26

lackeys to sell to the American

8:28

public what they're doing. And these

8:31

shows are at the same time.

8:33

Here's Howard Lutnik on ABC yesterday

8:35

morning saying, okay, don't worry folks,

8:38

there will be exemptions for certain

8:40

products like phones, computers, semiconductors, pharmaceuticals.

8:42

Well, if you remember, over the

8:45

past couple of months, President Trump

8:47

has called out pharmaceuticals and semiconductors

8:50

and autos, he called them sector...

8:52

tariffs and those are not available

8:54

for negotiation. They are just going

8:57

to be part of making sure

8:59

we reassure the core national security

9:02

items that need to be made

9:04

in this country. We need to

9:06

make medicine in this country. We

9:09

learned it during COVID. We need

9:11

to make it in this country.

9:14

We need to make semiconductors because

9:16

if we don't own semiconductors here...

9:18

Can you pause it? I'm so

9:21

sorry. That's why first, before you

9:23

do any kinds of tariffs and

9:25

the tariffs for specific industries would

9:28

be appropriate, but you would need

9:30

five, six years of heavily subsidize

9:33

investment in those industries. And then

9:35

that may not even be enough,

9:37

but you would need to first

9:40

develop the capacity to make all

9:42

of these products at scale, and

9:45

then you hit the imported goods

9:47

with the tariffs. We do not

9:49

have that capacity. Especially on what

9:52

he just listed, semiconductors. You know

9:54

what Bill was there to target

9:56

and inject? domestic manufacturing of semiconductors,

9:59

the CHIPS Act, the CHIPS Act,

10:01

it's in the acronym, although obviously

10:04

also China competition is a part

10:06

of that. It was recognized by

10:08

the Biden administration as a problem

10:11

and we needed to onshore that

10:13

manufacturing domestically. You know what the

10:16

Trump administration is doing? They fired

10:18

all of the probationary employees that

10:20

were hired and they're probationary because

10:23

they're new hires. To

10:25

implement the CHIPS Act, to create

10:27

the domestic manufacturing capacity for semiconductors,

10:29

Trump fired all of them. So

10:31

there's no ability to do what

10:34

Lutnik says. Terrorists are designed to

10:36

do. Virtually all semiconductors are made

10:38

now in Taiwan, and they're finished

10:40

in China. It's important that we

10:42

reassure them. And so the president

10:45

is going to come out with

10:47

his policies. on semiconductors and pharmaceuticals.

10:49

They're going to be outside the

10:51

reciprocal tariffs and he was just

10:53

making sure everyone understood that all

10:56

of these products are outside the

10:58

reciprocal tariffs and they're going to

11:00

have their own separate way of

11:02

being considered. But wait a minute,

11:04

I'm asking you about the exemption,

11:07

not about, I mean, the notice

11:09

that went out Friday night saying

11:11

that electronics, a wide range of

11:13

electronics, including smartphones, including components used

11:15

to make. microchips that these are

11:18

now exempt from the reciprocal tariffs.

11:20

Why that move? Well Remember, those

11:22

products are going to be part

11:24

of the semiconductor sectoral tariffs, which

11:26

are coming. So you're going to

11:29

see this week, there'll be a

11:31

register, in the federal registry, there'll

11:33

be a notice put out, that

11:35

is different types of work. So

11:37

we're going to do that, we

11:40

did that in autos, the president's

11:42

going to do it for pharmaceuticals,

11:44

and it is going to do

11:46

it for semiconductors. So all those

11:48

products are going to come under

11:51

semiconductors, and they're going to have

11:53

a special focus type of... to

11:55

make sure that those products get

11:57

reassured. We need to have semiconductors,

11:59

we need to have chips, and

12:01

we need to have flat panels,

12:04

we need to have these things

12:06

made in America. We can't be

12:08

reliant on Southeast Asia for all

12:10

of the things that operate for

12:12

us. So what he's doing is

12:15

he's saying they're exempt from the

12:17

reciprocal tariffs, but they're impurities. Oh

12:19

my God, all right, we get

12:21

it, we get it. So they're

12:23

not exempt. So wait, the announcement

12:26

was that they were exempt, but

12:28

no, they're not exempt. There are

12:30

other tariffs. In the future, they're

12:32

going to be not exempt. Don't

12:34

worry. We didn't take an L

12:37

on this. Donald Trump didn't realize

12:39

that we don't have the ability

12:41

to do this and this would,

12:43

his defense contractor buddies, they want

12:45

bombs over to Israel right now,

12:48

and they're not going to be

12:50

very happy with the idea that

12:52

this kicks off a trade war

12:54

where China can... stop the exporting

12:56

of the materials that they need

12:59

for their weapons technology and for

13:01

aerospace. Okay, so that's what he's

13:03

saying, that yes, there are exemptions

13:05

Trump announced on Friday, but don't

13:07

worry, they won't actually be exempt,

13:10

those other tariffs are coming. That

13:12

show is airing, Lutnik, Commerce Secretary,

13:14

on ABC. Over on NBC, you

13:16

have Peter Navarro, the crank responsible

13:18

for the formula. on with Meet

13:21

the Press, saying some contradictory things

13:23

to the actually, to the Commerce

13:25

Secretary. I want to talk about

13:27

the status of those potential pending

13:29

deals, but first, look, you're talking

13:32

about the fact that the White

13:34

House has a strategy, the Commerce

13:36

Secretary, the Treasury Secretary, the President

13:38

himself said there would not be

13:40

exclusions, and yet just yesterday there

13:43

were exclusions. So is there in

13:45

fact a plan or is the

13:47

President making this up as he

13:49

goes along? So the policy is

13:51

no exemptions, no exclusions, the policy

13:54

is an effect. Well, this is

13:56

really good for the American people

13:58

to understand. like different ways to

14:00

go about getting fairness for the

14:02

American people. We started with the

14:05

fentanyl border tariffs. That's an IEPA,

14:07

the International Emergency Economic Powers Act.

14:09

And we had a crisis at

14:11

the border. We continued to see

14:13

people die. By the time this

14:16

shows over another couple of Americans

14:18

will be dead from fentanyl, just

14:20

this short period of time. We

14:22

did that. So... All right, just

14:24

quite pause. We just have to

14:27

just fact check that the overwhelming

14:29

majority of fentanyl comes to... legal

14:31

courts of entry and is that

14:33

this is completely false also overdose

14:35

deaths went down under Biden because

14:38

in part the administration prioritized sending

14:40

out material drugs that would help

14:42

with overdose deaths and some harm

14:44

reduction policies on the federal level

14:46

not enough but still. It

14:49

is also used for the trade

14:51

deficit, but there's also a really

14:53

important thing, Kristen. This deals with

14:55

the chips issue you're talking about.

14:57

That's what we call the Section

15:00

232 issue, which is when we

15:02

have a flood of imports being

15:04

dumped into certain key strategic sectors,

15:06

steel, aluminum, chips. pharmaceuticals as we

15:08

learned during COVID, we have to

15:11

take specific actions. So what we're

15:13

doing with chips, the problem interestingly

15:15

for chips, because it's very complex

15:17

stuff, is that we don't buy

15:19

a lot of chips, like in

15:22

bags, we buy them in products.

15:24

So what Secretary of Commerce, Howard

15:26

Lutnik, is going to do, is

15:28

doing it as we speak, is

15:30

an investigation of the chip supply

15:32

chain. The goal with stability and

15:35

resilience, and you will see. actions

15:37

taken based on those investigations on

15:39

copper. We've already have steel and

15:41

aluminum. We already have autos. There

15:43

will be pharmaceuticals. And there will

15:46

be chips. And the important thing

15:48

is there's three kinds. There's the

15:50

high-end chips, which is the AI

15:52

future. Okay, we've got to get

15:54

control of that. And then there's

15:57

everything else that fuels our autos

15:59

and everything. The chips acts. Fair

16:01

enough. Okay, that I thought I

16:03

was praying fair enough. What is

16:05

she talking about? Can we put

16:07

the ticker back up of what

16:10

what Lutnik was saying? Just just

16:12

the it says now exempt smartphones,

16:14

other electronics now exempt from tariffs

16:16

at the same time that Navarro

16:18

was saying that. I mean, there

16:21

are the level of incompetence that

16:23

we're talking about here cannot be

16:25

overstated. The amount of insecurity that

16:27

they are creating day by day.

16:29

in the economy is irreparable, regardless

16:32

of whether or not these tariffs

16:34

go into effect. And I love

16:36

how they're playing this game of

16:38

like, exemptions are different from exclusions,

16:40

which are different from exceptions, exemptions,

16:42

exclusions, exceptions. I can't even keep

16:45

track of it. But there's no

16:47

policy here. Everybody's just following what

16:49

Donald Trump says on the day-to-day

16:51

basis. What it means is not

16:53

good things for economic forecast for

16:56

the next few months at least.

16:58

It's the height of irrationality and

17:00

also our accusations about drug trafficking

17:02

are... like Nazi level lies that

17:04

our projection because of America's complicity

17:07

in particular Southeast Asia the drug

17:09

trade there the CIA like it's

17:11

it's crazy that we foreground that

17:13

even with a Canada like it's

17:15

fentanyl we just deploy this thing

17:17

that right purports to be a

17:20

civilization issue which again like lots

17:22

of people's lives have been destroyed

17:24

through these things and we protect

17:26

the actual mercers and all those

17:28

people that are responsible for it

17:31

and then use it as a

17:33

foreign policy see bludgeon. It's disgusting.

17:35

Do we remember that Peter Navarro

17:37

was like just in prison? For

17:39

acoustic. For, for, for, yeah, election

17:42

denial and, you know, he showed

17:44

his loyalty. That's why. He showed

17:46

me he's a good guy. He's

17:48

willing to take some pain. like

17:50

I'm trying to inflict on the

17:53

rest of the country, because he

17:55

served for contempt, backing up the

17:57

dear leader. But this guy's a

17:59

lunatic, and he was considered a

18:01

lunatic back in the first Trump

18:03

era when he was encouraging Trump

18:06

to go after, to embrace hydroxychloroquine.

18:08

and injecting bleach. All of that

18:10

stuff's from that guy. Can I

18:12

just say like those, the whole

18:14

idea that we need to re-shore

18:17

ships or whatever, it's not because

18:19

he wants us to have good

18:21

chip manufacturing jobs at a fabricator,

18:23

it's because they want to go

18:25

to war with China and still

18:28

have computer chips. Oh, jobs, they

18:30

are firing the federal workforce and

18:32

openly saying it's because they want

18:34

to funnel people back into the

18:36

private sector, which means taking, creating

18:38

more unemployment to... depress wages and

18:41

depress the labor market. That's their

18:43

stated goal. And they're even saying

18:45

that they're going to do, don't

18:47

worry, we'll create other jobs. You

18:49

can go back to coal mining

18:52

while we let the robots do

18:54

this stuff. And pair that with

18:56

the child labor laws in right-wing

18:58

states. You get a pretty good

19:00

picture of what the Trump administration

19:03

is trying to create here in

19:05

this country. All right, quick break,

19:07

and when we come back, we'll

19:09

be talking to Roberto Lovato. We

19:31

are back and we are joined

19:34

now by Roberto Lovato, a Salvadoran

19:36

American writer, assistant professor of English

19:38

at the University of Nevada Las

19:40

Vegas. He's the author of the

19:43

book Unforgetting a memoir of a

19:45

family, migration, gangs, and revolution in

19:47

the Americas. Roberto, thanks so much

19:49

for coming on the show today.

19:52

Oh, real pleasure to be with

19:54

you, Emma. Great, great to hear

19:56

from you. We can hear him

19:58

all right. Okay, awesome. My headphones.

20:01

little weird so apologies Roberto. Before

20:03

we talk about Buchale and his

20:05

visit today I think it's helpful

20:07

to give some people a sense

20:10

of El Salvador's history with the

20:12

United States, Buchale's place in it,

20:14

you were born in the United

20:16

States, but I know that your

20:19

family's from El Salvador and you've

20:21

spent your life working in... academia,

20:23

journalism, but also non-profits helping Salvadoran

20:25

immigrants. So it seems to me

20:28

that you've had a foot in

20:30

both worlds. Can you tell us

20:32

a little bit more about your

20:34

background and how it informs your

20:37

work? Yeah. I was born in

20:39

San Francisco's Mission District, a home

20:41

to Carlos Santana, which is,

20:43

and I kind of identified

20:46

as a child of the

20:48

70s when you know, Santana's

20:51

music reflects the way that

20:53

all these different currents of

20:55

consciousness, black power, brown power,

20:58

gay power, women's power, and

21:00

the power of social movements,

21:02

especially in Central America, were

21:05

kind of coming together. I

21:07

grew up in that environment

21:10

and in pre- trump Silicon

21:12

Valley. So I kind of

21:14

also kind of saw the

21:17

rise of techno-fascism in the

21:19

Bay Area. And so as

21:21

a kid, I was in

21:24

a click, a gang, and

21:26

had to get out of

21:29

that and joined a right-wing

21:31

evangelical church that today would

21:33

have made me an evangelical

21:36

fascist. But I learned to

21:38

be a militant in the

21:40

church and left it, and

21:43

then eventually ended up in

21:45

El Salvador trying to find

21:48

myself in the middle of

21:50

a war, which was affecting

21:52

my family. and friends of

21:55

my family, and I started

21:57

doing work with refugee communities

21:59

there. And first I started

22:02

with refugee groups in San

22:04

Francisco, and then I went

22:07

to El Salvador and work

22:09

refugee groups there. and saw

22:11

things that no human beings

22:14

should see done to children,

22:16

elderly, and others, and I

22:18

decided that just doing kind

22:21

of liberal service work was

22:23

insufficient to the moment and

22:26

made this difficult decision to

22:28

join the FMLN guerrillas. And,

22:30

you know, I'm still paying

22:33

the price psychologically for that

22:35

and... I've also learned a

22:37

great deal. And so I

22:40

then became a writer, journalist,

22:42

and eventually professor now here

22:45

at UNOV and am astounded

22:47

at how the circuits of

22:49

violence in fascistic, neo-fascistic and

22:52

techno-fascistic kind of politics have

22:54

turned out Salvador, this tiny

22:56

country that people didn't even

22:59

know. when I was a

23:01

kid into a global center

23:04

of neo-fascist theory and practice.

23:06

Right. And let's trace that

23:08

history a little bit. And

23:11

even, we can start with

23:13

your upbringing and how you

23:15

say you were in a

23:18

click. And right now we're

23:20

seeing the Trump administration attempt

23:23

to justify its fascism by

23:25

painting migrants as criminals. We

23:27

hear a lot about Trinidad,

23:30

which is associated with Venezuela,

23:32

and MS-13, which is associated

23:34

with El Salvador. Can you

23:37

speak a little bit about

23:39

how you got? how you

23:42

found connection in the click

23:44

as you describe it and

23:46

how gang ties very loosely

23:49

described are being used against

23:51

people from El Salvador to

23:53

really demonize them frankly. Yeah

23:56

what are things I do

23:58

in my book is show

24:01

the human conditions that create

24:03

gangs and gang members. I

24:05

was a part of small

24:08

click in San Francisco, nothing

24:10

like the really hardcore gangs,

24:12

either here in the US

24:15

like the Mexican Mafia and

24:17

other gangs or Crips and

24:20

Bloods, and MS-13 and 18th

24:22

Street in El Salvador, which

24:24

are structures based on US-style

24:27

gangs. And so I found

24:29

friendship and community in a

24:31

little click that was You

24:34

know, not mostly nonviolent except

24:36

at different moments. We were

24:39

involved in drugs and other

24:41

stuff, but we were not

24:43

the hardened heavy weapon-wielding gangs

24:46

of today. And so I

24:48

started working with gangs in

24:50

the 90s in LA where

24:53

the gangs were born. MS-13

24:55

and 18th Street. And you

24:58

know, 13, for example, is

25:00

the letter M. of the

25:02

letter M, the Salvadoran gangs,

25:05

who were being, before they

25:07

were gangs, they were being

25:09

bullied and beaten by larger,

25:12

mostly black gangs in South

25:14

LA, and decided to start

25:17

arming themselves with machetes. And

25:19

then journalists like Lisa Ling

25:21

started noticing that these gangs

25:24

had machetes instead of... guns

25:26

and started labeling them as

25:28

extremely violent and you know,

25:31

and then the gang took

25:33

on, you know, the more

25:36

familiar tattooed faces, tattooed bodies

25:38

and more heavily armed gang

25:40

structures and culture that we

25:43

know today. And so I've

25:45

watched as the U.S. local

25:47

and then federal governments have

25:50

started taking interest in these

25:52

gangs and the project has

25:55

been bipartisan Democrat and Republican.

25:57

They both escalated and used

25:59

the gangs to legitimate initially

26:02

local policing of young people.

26:04

Now you're seeing it become

26:06

this terrorist federalized. That you

26:09

know, has, you know, Lisa

26:11

Link started calling MS-13. the

26:14

most dangerous gang in the

26:16

world, even though you never

26:18

have any statistical basis to

26:21

prove any gang is the

26:23

most violent in the world.

26:25

It's ridiculous fact. I mean,

26:28

when you look at, in

26:30

2019, when Trump started using

26:33

the word terrorist as applied

26:35

to Salvadoran gangs, and then

26:37

as Bukela was elected that

26:40

same year, he starts using

26:42

the term aggressively, and you

26:44

see how. You know, the

26:47

terrorist war is being thrown

26:49

around. I started interviewing cops,

26:51

police in San Francisco and

26:54

other cities, and found out,

26:56

for example, that in 2019,

26:59

you had three white men

27:01

wielding semi-automatic weapons. These three

27:03

white men killed more people

27:06

in 2019 than the allegedly

27:08

10,000 MS-13 and 18-18-18-18-18-19-10-10-10- and-13-18-13-18-13-18-18-18-18-18-18-19-19-19-19-19-19-

27:10

combined. So let me repeat

27:13

that. Three, three white men

27:15

with semi-automatic weapons killed more

27:18

people in 2019 than all

27:20

of the 10,000 MS-13 and

27:22

18 street gang members in

27:25

the United States. This is

27:27

the degree to which the

27:29

media display you're seeing in

27:32

the media between Bukela and

27:34

Trump is entirely political theater

27:37

on steroids. Right. It's you

27:39

see frankly like as you

27:41

alluded to the the explosion

27:44

of tactics that have been

27:46

long used against Latino and

27:48

black young men in cities

27:51

in this country gang databases

27:53

right now being basically used

27:56

at the federal level where.

27:58

if you're somebody who's from

28:00

a specific area of Venezuela

28:03

or if you're from El

28:05

Salvador and you may like

28:07

know somebody or have been

28:10

in a community with somebody

28:12

who's in one of these

28:15

gangs that they trump up

28:17

as not to use upon

28:19

is more dangerous than they

28:22

are that that basically classifies

28:24

you as a part of

28:26

some broader criminal organization and

28:29

now not just criminal according

28:31

to this Faray Trump administration,

28:34

terrorist. Yeah, the franchise of

28:36

criminalization and now terrorization of

28:38

different groups of people is

28:41

well underway. And it's the

28:43

biggest, most dangerous thing that's

28:45

coming out of the Trump

28:48

Bukelen meeting. It's telling, for

28:50

example, that during the meeting

28:53

today, Bukelis said, and I

28:55

quote, sometimes they say that

28:57

we imprison thousands. I like

29:00

to say that we actually

29:02

liberated millions. And Trump replies,

29:04

who gave him that line?

29:07

Do you think I can

29:09

use that? And so the

29:12

meeting reflects, I think, the

29:14

expansion of the local, national,

29:16

hemispheric, and global enterprise of

29:19

terrorization of increasing numbers of

29:21

increasing numbers of groups. the

29:23

lowest hanging violent fruit like

29:26

the gangs and they are

29:28

violent and and some of

29:31

them are murderous most of

29:33

them are not most of

29:35

the gang members are not

29:38

murders okay otherwise you had

29:40

over 10,000 deaths in MS-13

29:42

in the U.S. when you

29:45

have a insignificant number statistically

29:47

doing that. So you start

29:50

up with gangs, then you

29:52

extend it to immigrants generally.

29:54

As you see, Stephen Miller's

29:57

career, you know, growing and

29:59

Trump's own election built on

30:01

that. And then you extend

30:04

it to like an El

30:06

Salvador journalist dealing with gangs

30:09

have been arrested, harassed. persecuted,

30:11

some even exiled. And then

30:13

you extend it to activists.

30:16

You start using the word

30:18

activist to talk about, like

30:20

you're talking about the Palestinian

30:23

activists in Colombia or the

30:25

Turkish woman who was arrested

30:28

by, you know, at Tufts.

30:30

who is still in the

30:32

segaut gulag that Buchella just

30:35

built. All of these immigrants

30:37

are now illustrations of how

30:39

the franchise is extending, but

30:42

make no mistake, coming your

30:44

way soon, is the franchise

30:47

of terrorist terrorization. To those

30:49

of us that are citizens,

30:51

it's already a put. Trump

30:54

is already talking about deporting

30:56

citizens to El Salvador, U.S.

30:58

citizens. Yep. And so, you

31:01

know, this is where, and

31:03

this is where like my

31:06

experience first growing up in

31:08

in pre-technical fascist Bay Area,

31:10

and then as a journalist

31:13

who's reported on electronic surveillance,

31:15

that, you know, as I

31:17

watched, they go from the

31:20

analog industrial age to the

31:22

digital age of surveillance, has

31:25

taught me that people like

31:27

Bukkele are... are digital dictators.

31:29

We're in the age of

31:32

digital dictatorship. And the industrial

31:34

age structures of like my

31:36

former comrades in the FMLN

31:39

could not defeat the digital

31:41

dictatorship model of Buchale. And

31:44

so we have to upgrade

31:46

our social movements for the

31:48

digital age if we are

31:51

to fight people like Buchale

31:53

who has benefited from CIA-trained

31:55

Venezuelan assets who became consultants.

31:58

to Bukhale and helped him

32:00

manufacture this bizarre and dangerous

32:03

reality in Osabodor that has

32:05

large segments of the popular

32:07

supporting him in their desperation.

32:10

I really want to get

32:12

to that and also your

32:14

your astute comments about the

32:17

Bay Area and what it's

32:19

become because so much what

32:22

you're saying reminds me of

32:24

another Bay Area journalist we

32:26

had on Gilderan and his

32:29

study of of these right-wing

32:31

techno-fascists but you mentioned the

32:33

CIA and its current involvement

32:36

in El Salvador's politics but

32:38

It did not obviously begin

32:41

there. The United States sent

32:43

billions of dollars in military

32:45

aid to El Salvador's government

32:48

in the 80s and it

32:50

was a violent repressive regime.

32:52

If you could give us

32:55

a little bit of that

32:57

history as we lead into

33:00

explaining how Buchelli fits into

33:02

that history, that would be

33:04

great. El Salvador was for

33:07

the better part of the

33:09

20th century, one of the

33:11

longest standing military dictatorships. in

33:14

the world in the hemisphere

33:16

and in the world and

33:19

It's always it's always been

33:21

as well the one of

33:23

a it was the first

33:26

place to launch a indigenous

33:28

and communist insurrection against dictatorship

33:30

in the Americas in 1932

33:33

when approximately 32,000 I mean,

33:35

I'm sorry, somewhere between 10

33:37

to 50,000, we still don't

33:40

know because the memory of

33:42

that has been erased in

33:45

official records. People were killed

33:47

by their own government. And

33:49

so the violence and murder

33:52

of El Salvador has ingrained

33:54

itself in the political and

33:56

even the social culture of

33:59

El Salvador, where for example,

34:01

dictatorship after the disappearing, exiling

34:04

and perpetrating other actions to

34:06

terrorize their way into domination.

34:08

So in the 60s and

34:11

the 50s and 60s, you

34:13

start seeing the birth of

34:15

groups following Chegevara and Fidel

34:18

Castro in the Americas, but

34:20

that were revolutionary, mostly Marxist

34:23

Leninist, revolutionary organizations, that eventually

34:25

in the 1980s, in the

34:27

1980s, the Faravundo Marti National

34:30

Liberation Front, the Frénte Faravundo

34:32

Marti for the liberation national.

34:34

And the FMLN waged a

34:37

successful war to dismantle the

34:39

military dictatorship. Sadly, and tragically,

34:42

the FMLN did not retool

34:44

itself for the digital age.

34:46

The analog age, Martis Leninist

34:49

political military structures, did not.

34:51

get upgraded for the world

34:53

that Silicon Valley created. And

34:56

so eventually you get in

34:58

the 90s, the right wing

35:01

fascist Arena Party instituting what's

35:03

known as Manodura, hard hand

35:05

politics in response to the

35:08

gang problem that was growing

35:10

after the war because Bush

35:12

administration won Attorney General Bill

35:15

Barr. started targeting gangs in

35:17

the US, making. up until

35:20

that time, the largest shift

35:22

in FBI resources from counter

35:24

intelligence to focus on gangs

35:27

in the in 1992 in

35:29

response to the LA riots.

35:31

He also began the practice

35:34

of deporting gang members to

35:36

El Salvador and then the

35:39

rest of Central America, a

35:41

region ripe with ruins and

35:43

perfectly fit to grow U.S.

35:46

style, L.A. style gang structures

35:48

like the Mexican mafia. And

35:50

so that's where you get

35:53

MS-13 and 18th Street growing

35:55

out of the rotten soil

35:58

of U.S. policy in the

36:00

U.S. of deportations and gang

36:02

policing. Right, right. So they

36:05

fed one another, right. And

36:07

I guess it created almost

36:09

a cycle of You have,

36:12

sorry to cut you off

36:14

here, Roberto, but it's such

36:17

a key point. MS-13, originating

36:19

in the US prison system,

36:21

informing deportation policies, sending those

36:24

folks back to El Salvador,

36:26

building up their resources and

36:28

creating, almost strengthening them, but

36:31

also tying in US kind

36:33

of gang policing into the

36:36

immigration. a carceral state. That's

36:38

so key in the 90s

36:40

and into the 2000s. Oh,

36:43

and that, you're right on

36:45

point, Emma. In addition to

36:47

that, you see the kind

36:50

of robocopization of US policing

36:52

and El Salvador's actual influence

36:55

on it. You had people

36:57

like a guy named the

36:59

late Maxman Warring, a former

37:02

US Pentagon colonel, who and

37:04

strategist. And, you know, professor,

37:06

distinguished professor in the U.S.

37:09

Army College, you know, starting

37:11

his career focusing on insertion.

37:14

the encounter in Syria in

37:16

El Salvador. After the war,

37:18

men warring, what does men

37:21

warring do? He goes and

37:23

he starts looking at gangs

37:25

as the new insurgency and

37:28

starts framing gangs as insurgency.

37:30

There's a line that runs

37:33

from that kind of thinking

37:35

to the terrorist language you

37:37

see being used today. And

37:40

then some of the 50,

37:42

some of the many trainers

37:44

that the US sent to

37:47

El Salvador. after the war

37:49

ended in 1992, went where?

37:52

To San Francisco, L.A., New

37:54

York, to train U.S. police

37:56

forces in counterinsurgency. Okay, and

37:59

then you have, you know,

38:01

over the years, U.S. President,

38:03

including Obama, for example, heavily

38:06

militarizing U.S. police. So you

38:08

have in El Salvador, an

38:11

outsized, a tiny country with

38:13

an outsized... contributions to the

38:15

militarization of the United States

38:18

itself. And even the militarization

38:20

of the police, that's an

38:22

outgrowth of the war on

38:25

terror, which is where we

38:27

come full circle of the

38:30

classifying of these folks as

38:32

terrorists, because we did the

38:34

same thing with the Mujahideen.

38:37

We know that the United

38:39

States has enabled... far-right governments

38:41

not just in South America

38:44

but also in the Middle

38:46

East and then that's come

38:49

back to bite us because

38:51

they become the well maybe

38:53

not even bite us but

38:56

it benefits these people because

38:58

then the military budget increases

39:00

and the surveillance state increases

39:03

and this is a new

39:05

group of people to go

39:08

after it's just a completely

39:10

incongruent policy if you actually

39:12

care about safety and not

39:15

just the carceral state and

39:17

making some money like that

39:19

that it creates cycles of

39:22

violence is really what I'm

39:24

saying. And it doesn't seem

39:27

like there's, we're just, we're

39:29

diving even further into just

39:31

a more digitized version of

39:34

that policy. You write about

39:36

it as a digitized neoliberal

39:38

21st century facista, which is

39:41

so well said. Like, how

39:43

does that look when you

39:46

bring in the surveillance technology

39:48

piece? Well, it looks like

39:50

things you see in sci-fi

39:53

movies. You know, I don't

39:55

teach sci-fi writing, but I'm

39:57

a fan of sci-fi writing

40:00

and sci-fi movies. One of

40:02

my favorite being The Matrix.

40:05

You're living in the Matrix

40:07

right now in many ways.

40:09

As far as the stimulation

40:12

of reality, what takes place

40:14

in the White House right

40:16

now between Bukele and Trump

40:19

is an entire stimulation when

40:21

you have this terrorist language

40:24

being applied indiscriminately and without

40:26

any basis in reality. When

40:28

you're going to start seeing

40:31

it, the brand of terror,

40:33

the terrorist brand into different

40:35

groups that are going to

40:38

include many of us, unless

40:40

we build something else that

40:42

El Salvador has to teach

40:45

us, which is our social

40:47

movements, that can, that are

40:50

the only things that are

40:52

going to be able to

40:54

challenge the rise of fascism.

40:57

We're not going to liberal-progressive

40:59

our way out of climate

41:01

change, technical fascism. We simply,

41:04

it's proven time and again

41:06

in the case of El

41:09

Salvador. immigration, for example, immigration

41:11

by the way, being the

41:13

the royal road that leads

41:16

to fascism, not just in

41:18

the US, but throughout the

41:20

world, right in Europe and

41:23

other, and even in the

41:25

Americas. In the case of

41:28

these, the escalation of this,

41:30

this, this technical fascist practice,

41:32

we're going to have to

41:35

build the social movements that

41:37

kind of, kind of, include

41:39

elements of liberal progressive and

41:42

have to be a little

41:44

more radical into the left.

41:47

of that, if we're to

41:49

get through this. Yeah, absolutely.

41:51

And I guess that brings

41:54

us to more of a

41:56

modern context, because Buchela is

41:58

right now meeting with Donald

42:01

Trump, as you say, apparently

42:03

he has now said he

42:06

won't be releasing Kilmar Abrego

42:08

Garcia. calling him a terrorist,

42:10

Trump is openly flirting, standing

42:13

next to him with the

42:15

idea of sending quote, home

42:17

groans to the El Salvador

42:20

prison. What is this guy's

42:22

background? You mentioned the FMLN,

42:25

the left-wing political party in

42:27

El Salvador, that he was

42:29

initially a part of, but

42:32

he was expelled from in

42:34

2017. Can you talk about

42:36

how that happened, why that

42:39

happened, and how this guy

42:41

cut his teeth politically? Yeah,

42:44

I mean, sadly, some of

42:46

the leadership in the FMLA,

42:48

my former comrades, got corrupted

42:51

it by power and money.

42:53

And you know, they embraced

42:55

and couldn't see the danger

42:58

of somebody, a rich boy.

43:00

technologically sophisticated rich boy named

43:03

Naib Bukhale. And he was

43:05

not in any way a

43:07

part of the history of

43:10

the FMLinda, what I would

43:12

call the heroic history of

43:14

the FMLN prior to becoming

43:17

the dominant political force in

43:19

El Salvador in the 2000s.

43:22

And so there was a

43:24

parting away between Bukale and

43:26

the FMLN when Bukale was

43:29

mayor. And Bukhala went on

43:31

to establish a political party

43:33

known as Nuevasidesz, the New

43:36

Ideas Party, which actually did

43:38

have new ideas, but the

43:41

new ideas they're not telling

43:43

you is techno-fashism, right? Taking

43:45

Helen... of the FMLN's opposition

43:48

of discourse and combining it

43:50

with the traditional fascist militaristic

43:52

practices of the arena party,

43:55

also an industrial-age structure. Bukhela

43:57

managed to, with the help

44:00

of his Venezuelan digital consultants

44:02

who worked against Hugo Chavez

44:04

and Maduro, They concocted this

44:07

whole new way to dominate

44:09

in the digital age, you

44:11

know, to, you know, like,

44:14

you know, people talk about

44:16

the spectacle of politics in

44:19

extreme, and it's right there

44:21

in front of us, and

44:23

people are consuming it as

44:26

if the spectacle was reality.

44:28

When you have, for example,

44:30

Bukela displaying gang members... on

44:33

the floor, these famous pictures,

44:35

you know, he was, he

44:38

was showing how, how to

44:40

cover up the extermination, the

44:42

torture, the disappearances of previous

44:45

governments, including the FMLN government,

44:47

sadly, when it came to

44:49

gangs. So instead of like

44:52

continuing that the, he continues

44:54

the worst of military dictatorship.

44:57

But does it under the

44:59

guise of this digital democratic

45:01

spectacle? Right. Is he involved

45:04

in cryptocurrency as well? I

45:06

mean, like, yeah, right. That's,

45:08

that's, I mean, you also

45:11

see that down in Argentina,

45:13

like there is a growing

45:16

crypto, techno-fascist movement that has

45:18

close ties with Elon Musk

45:20

and the Trump administration in

45:23

a variety of different countries,

45:25

even as there are some

45:27

success stories in South America

45:30

with left-wing governments. There are

45:32

like on the other side

45:35

of the spectrum these far-right

45:37

kind of dictatorships like Buchelli

45:39

similarly is my understanding is

45:42

not really interested in governing

45:44

very much like he hasn't

45:46

done anything in office except

45:49

some of this fascistic notorious

45:51

prisons where he has complete

45:54

control over them and can

45:56

throw in anybody he wants

45:58

like there A lot of

46:01

it's just crypto scams is

46:03

my read of things. Absolutely.

46:05

Crypto has not delivered for

46:08

El Salvador. In fact, it's

46:10

put it into more debt.

46:13

And it's just, crypto is

46:15

just another part of the

46:17

digital political theater that you

46:20

see in the prisons, you

46:22

know, that you see in

46:24

the meeting today, that you

46:27

see are running through and

46:29

through Bucheles Project. And I'm

46:32

glad you mentioned Latin America

46:34

because there's still pockets and

46:36

large swas of hope to

46:39

be had in the Americas,

46:41

arguably the most insurgent continent

46:43

in the world, when it

46:46

comes to opposition to U.S.

46:48

Empire. And so there's a

46:51

whole history there that the

46:53

FMLN in its Better Days

46:55

was a part of. That's

46:58

part of why I wrote

47:00

my book, to preserve the

47:02

history. and remind people, I

47:05

mean, it was no easy

47:07

thing for me to, a

47:10

U.S. citizen to come out

47:12

as a former, former guerrilla

47:14

fighter, but Trump helped me

47:17

to make that decision because

47:19

I realized that there was

47:21

some great learning to be

47:24

had in the revolutionary tradition,

47:26

a word that we don't

47:29

even use hardly anymore, revolution

47:31

in the U.S. We've forgotten

47:33

that there's a whole tradition

47:36

in the world that was

47:38

a revolutionary tradition. We have

47:40

to kind of go to

47:43

the only thing really proven

47:45

to defeat fascist over. the

47:47

course of history has been

47:50

revolutionary movements by and large.

47:52

And we're going to need

47:55

that now. So what that

47:57

means, I don't have all

47:59

the answers. That's beyond my

48:02

pay grade. But I do

48:04

know that we need to

48:06

do in our social movements

48:09

what psychologists, for example, do

48:11

with the kids that I've

48:14

interviewed in the jails of

48:16

Obama, Trump, and Biden. which

48:18

is to reconstitute their, you

48:21

know, the kids' brains shrink

48:23

when you put them in

48:25

these cages and in prisons

48:28

for an extended period. And

48:30

psychologists treated them, told me

48:33

that the way they deal

48:35

with them is to help

48:37

the kids reconstitute their story

48:40

of themselves in a way

48:42

that connects to the part

48:44

of us that's indestructible. And

48:47

so liberal progressivism doesn't put

48:49

us in touch with that

48:52

part of our radical imagination,

48:54

our radical core. And I

48:56

think we need to start

48:59

thinking about how do we

49:01

build not just individuals, but

49:03

social movements that re-engineer themselves

49:06

to come back in touch

49:08

with the things that make

49:11

for real social change. I

49:13

can't see how we're going

49:15

to liberal progressive our way

49:18

out of fascism. I don't.

49:20

I think time and again...

49:22

The liberalism is enabling fascism

49:25

right now. I mean, we're

49:27

seeing it with the liberal

49:30

institutional law firms in the

49:32

country because even if you're

49:34

liberal on being open to

49:37

other cultures, being laissez-faire, liberal

49:39

in the marketplace means you're

49:41

always going to abandon the

49:44

secondary cultural and social liberalism.

49:46

for the primary means of

49:49

power in society, which is

49:51

well under capitalism. That's what

49:53

we're seeing. Absolutely. I mean,

49:56

I wrote a piece. nation

49:58

a while back on something

50:00

I call intersectional empire, which

50:03

is the alternative that Democrats

50:05

have offered us. You're not

50:08

doing anything to dismantle empire.

50:10

You're just advancing it under

50:12

a gay flag with a

50:15

black president and women in

50:17

the cabinet and, you know,

50:19

helicopters with the gay flag

50:22

on them and stuff. And

50:24

so, the LGBTQ flag. And

50:27

so, like, that's the alternative

50:29

that liberalism is offering us.

50:31

We are betrayed time and

50:34

again by liberal Democrats, though

50:36

at some point we need

50:38

to have a big tent

50:41

social movement on a national

50:43

hemispheric level that brings in

50:46

all the different forces opposed

50:48

to the technical fascist order

50:50

that's being established in the

50:53

U.S. and across the hemisphere

50:55

with El Salvador, with Argentina.

50:57

We have to really go

51:00

back to the oldie Boguetti

51:02

idea of... you know, think

51:05

globally, act locally and connect

51:07

globally in ways we haven't

51:09

in the past. I do

51:12

have hope, however, right? I

51:14

see, just like when I

51:16

was in New York, I

51:19

saw Occupy when it was

51:21

coming. I see the possibilities

51:24

in a global movement that

51:26

will surpass the scale and

51:28

scope and intensity of the

51:31

68 movement because of our

51:33

ability to connect to each

51:35

other. in ways that are

51:38

unprecedented from them to now.

51:40

And so that is my

51:43

great hope that we saw,

51:45

for example, in the movement

51:47

against the genocide in Palestine,

51:50

the interconnectedness of the world

51:52

acting in unison for social

51:54

justice. And that preview is

51:57

also the reasons why you

51:59

have the attacks of the

52:02

Trump and the Buchelas. and

52:04

the expansion of the franchise.

52:06

of the terrorism terrorization of

52:09

different groups of people, including

52:11

students. Eventually, you're going to

52:13

get to labor people. You're

52:16

going to start expanding this.

52:18

And so the more aware,

52:21

the opportunity in Trump and

52:23

Buchel is meeting is to

52:25

become aware of the unification

52:28

of the global left. from

52:30

your mouth to God's ears.

52:32

Roberto, thanks so much for

52:35

coming on the show today.

52:37

Roberto, Lovato, you can read

52:40

his book Unforgetting a Memoir

52:42

of Family, Migration, Gangs, and

52:44

Revolution in the Americas. We'll

52:47

put a link to that

52:49

below wherever people are listening

52:51

to or watching this. Thanks

52:54

so much for your time.

52:56

Do they really appreciate it?

52:59

My pleasure, I'm with thank

53:01

you. tackle this story now,

53:03

because it's not so fun,

53:06

but it's breaking news. Donald

53:08

Trump meeting with El Salvador's

53:10

far-right dictator, President Bukile, in

53:13

the White House now, and

53:15

here they are openly talking

53:18

about sending, quote, home groans,

53:20

aka American citizens, to the

53:22

prison camp in El Salvador.

53:27

Yeah, we're getting this as

53:29

we, so but here, home

53:31

groans are next. The home

53:34

groans are next. The home

53:36

groans, you got to go

53:38

about five more places. Yeah,

53:40

we're getting this as we,

53:43

so but here you hear

53:45

Trump then exclaim more loudly,

53:47

home groans are next. Yeah,

53:49

I said, home groans are

53:52

next. The home groans, but

53:54

you gotta build about five

53:56

more places. Yeah, that's fair.

53:59

All right? It's

54:02

not big enough. So this is

54:04

a much different office than you

54:07

are. Oh my God, then he's

54:09

going on about the decor in

54:11

the White House again. So it's

54:13

a much different place. We put

54:15

up a lot of gold. I

54:18

know that we all know that

54:20

this man is an insane person.

54:23

Has everyone laughed in that room?

54:25

It's not just Trump. No, I

54:27

mean look at look at look

54:29

at who the crowd is Stephen

54:32

Miller and and Rubio and like

54:34

they all all they have are

54:36

News Nation and Fox News reporters

54:38

if that in there at this

54:41

point I mean, yes, there's complicity

54:43

in the media on this front,

54:45

but they're also just like not

54:47

letting traditional media in the room

54:50

to ask these kinds of questions

54:52

That here here's another part of

54:54

this them talking about Kilmar-Abrago Garcia,

54:56

because the Supreme Court has said

54:58

now that the Trump administration must

55:01

facilitate his return. Trump is now

55:03

saying basically he's going to defy

55:05

that, testing the Supreme Court, which

55:07

we knew was going to happen,

55:10

because they don't have an enforcement

55:12

mechanism, and that's why they said

55:14

things like facilitate and use more

55:16

conservative language than... they would, I

55:18

think, if they were, like, had

55:21

the authority over, or if they

55:23

hadn't, maybe said that the president

55:25

is immune for prosecution for official

55:27

acts, perhaps they'd feel a little

55:30

bit more emboldened to tell him

55:32

what to do and what not

55:34

to do, but this is their

55:36

own making here. Bukhale just basically

55:38

saying, I'm not going to help

55:41

send him back. Can President Buchale

55:43

weigh in on this? Do you

55:45

plan to return him? Well, I

55:47

can't. I'm supposed to have suggested

55:50

that I smuggle a terrorist in

55:52

the United States, right? How can

55:54

I return him to the United

55:56

States? How can I return him

55:59

to the United States? Yep. Of

56:01

course I'm not going to do

56:03

it. It's like, I mean, the

56:05

question is preposterous. How can I,

56:07

as a model of terrorism today

56:10

in the United States? I don't

56:12

have the power to return him

56:14

to the United States. So you

56:16

can release him inside of the

56:19

world. Yeah. But you can release

56:21

him inside of the world. Yeah.

56:23

But I'm not releasing, I mean,

56:25

we're not very fond of releasing

56:27

terrorists into our country. Well, they'd

56:30

love to have a criminal, you

56:32

know, we used to do it.

56:34

I mean, they would love it.

56:36

Yeah. Sick. He's a sick people.

56:38

I mean, who's that reporter? What?

56:40

One of the only, only,

56:42

uh, Collins. It's Caitlin

56:44

Collins. There, that's the

56:46

White House correspondent for CNN,

56:49

it seems like. Um,

56:51

I mean... So CCOT, which

56:53

is the maximum security prison

56:55

in El Salvador that Trump

56:57

says we now need many

57:00

more of, is a gulag.

57:02

It's basically a prison that

57:04

you don't talk to anybody.

57:06

It's solitary confinement for almost

57:09

every part of the day,

57:11

23 hours a day, which

57:14

is torture. Psychological torture.

57:16

that has effects on prisoners'

57:18

brains and is not helpful

57:20

to reintegrate people back into

57:22

society. It makes people go

57:25

insane, but that's the point. I

57:27

mean, and that's maybe the least

57:29

horrible thing that happens to these

57:31

folks in this prison. The way

57:33

you get into CCOT is if

57:35

Pukele says you get into CCOT

57:37

because he's a dictator, a far-right

57:40

dictator, who decides who gets thrown

57:42

in a prison camp and who

57:44

doesn't. and Donald Trump and these

57:46

other authority and is now

57:48

talking about doing that to

57:50

American citizens. We have

57:52

had so many constitutional crises

57:55

under this administration

57:57

already and it's been like three

57:59

months. since he got into

58:01

office, but this might be

58:04

the most intense and that's

58:06

saying a lot because this

58:08

is an absolutely fundamental right

58:11

in this country, the right

58:13

to due process, and the

58:15

Trump administration is, well, habeas

58:18

corpus, this is, there war

58:20

on habeas corpus. Basically

58:22

saying that Trump thinks

58:24

that he can deport anybody

58:26

that he... deems a terrorist

58:28

to a foreign prison camp

58:30

without having their day in court. And

58:32

then when you marry that with what he,

58:35

what is happening right in front of

58:37

our eyes with Kimara Brago Garcia being

58:39

the example, and Trump then saying in

58:41

the same meeting that he wants to

58:44

do that to U.S. citizens, what

58:46

else? Can we glean from this or do

58:48

we all have trumped arrangement syndrome? Oh,

58:50

it was just going to be the

58:52

criminals we were told that were deported

58:54

and then you have the press take

58:56

that face value and eventually they get

58:58

access to some court documents and you

59:01

have CBS and other outlets reporting

59:03

It's like anywhere between 75 to 90%

59:06

of these people have zero criminal record

59:08

zero and there right now hundreds in

59:10

this prison in solitary confinement

59:12

with their head shaved and likely being

59:15

tortured And Trump is

59:17

saying that he wants

59:19

to do that to U.S.

59:21

citizens. I mean, obviously

59:24

incredibly disturbing.

59:27

I mean, the truth is, like,

59:29

we don't need to reference previous

59:31

times or former McCarthyisms. We're in

59:34

one of those periods now that

59:36

people will cite. And the question

59:38

is, how bad does it get?

59:41

Mark Arubio, which 99 senators voted

59:43

for, including Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth

59:45

Warren. Yep. And they should maybe.

59:47

you know, be more at the

59:50

forefront of that vote, I think,

59:52

and maybe repenting for it. But

59:54

here's Muckarubio talking about this, who's

59:56

actually like maybe the key diplomat

59:58

in charge of or key government figure

1:00:01

in charge of this besides Trump. We're

1:00:03

told this guy is the sane one.

1:00:05

I don't understand what the confusion is.

1:00:08

This individual is a citizen of El

1:00:10

Salvador. He was illegally in the United

1:00:12

States and was returned to his country.

1:00:15

That's where you deport people back to

1:00:17

their country of origin. Except for Venezuela,

1:00:19

that wasn't refusing to take people back

1:00:21

or places like that. I can tell

1:00:24

you this, Mr. President. Nope. The foreign

1:00:26

policy of the United States is conducted

1:00:28

by the President of the United States,

1:00:31

not by a court. And no court

1:00:33

in the United States has a right

1:00:35

to conduct a foreign policy of the

1:00:38

United States. It's that simple. End of

1:00:40

the story. Is he a terrorist or

1:00:42

can he be can kill Marabrigo or

1:00:45

see it be released back into El

1:00:47

Salvador? That's very different than what Buchelli

1:00:49

and Trump just said there. They called

1:00:51

him a terrorist even though he's not

1:00:54

one. He's never been criminally charged. He

1:00:56

was fingered by a confidential informant and

1:00:58

that tip went nowhere and that is

1:01:01

the extent of any history that he

1:01:03

has with the law outside of, you

1:01:05

know, trying to become a citizen and

1:01:08

being a part of a union and

1:01:10

working as an apprentice here in the

1:01:12

Maryland area. He is a husband, he

1:01:15

is a father, he is not a

1:01:17

terrorist, that's already been delineated. The Trump

1:01:19

administration admitted that they made a mistake

1:01:21

sending him there. Then you have also,

1:01:24

they're basically prison, private prison contractor in

1:01:26

chief, Buchella is saying that I'm not

1:01:28

going to release him because there's nothing

1:01:31

I can do, sneering at the rest

1:01:33

of the press. But then you turn

1:01:35

to Rubio saying, well, maybe he can

1:01:38

get released back into El Salvador because

1:01:40

that's where he's from. Which one is

1:01:42

it? Which one is it?

1:01:45

Abriva Garcia married his girlfriend June

1:01:47

2019. They had child together that

1:01:49

was who was a US citizen.

1:01:51

Wife also had two children from

1:01:53

an earlier relationship and all three

1:01:55

children have special needs. Abriva Garcia

1:01:57

fought allegations against him in deputation

1:01:59

proceedings in court and applied for

1:02:01

asylum. his request was denied. However,

1:02:03

Judge Granary withholding of removal status,

1:02:05

that would block his deportation to

1:02:08

El Salvador. Due to the threat

1:02:10

that gangs would pose to him,

1:02:12

he wasn't a gang member, he's

1:02:14

a threat posed to him. I

1:02:16

find that he was more likely

1:02:18

to be harmed if he was

1:02:20

returned to El Salvador, which of

1:02:22

course is just the reality that

1:02:24

he's going to live out. All

1:02:26

that is to say, of course,

1:02:28

he is the ideal candidate for

1:02:31

like, you know, sympathy, but the

1:02:33

truth is, if we can't bring

1:02:35

somebody back that we send them.

1:02:37

We shouldn't be sending anywhere in

1:02:39

there at all even if it's

1:02:41

Hannibal the late great Hannibal actor

1:02:43

as Donald Trump likes to say

1:02:45

It's a fucking joke. It's it's

1:02:47

a it's this is a fascist

1:02:49

takeover of the or a fascist

1:02:52

advance I should say takeover is

1:02:54

probably too generous to the United

1:02:56

States fascist advance of this country

1:02:58

and you know there's certain people

1:03:00

in our field that were taking

1:03:02

like you said the claim that

1:03:04

this was just going to be

1:03:06

criminals at face value at the

1:03:08

beginning of this administration and also

1:03:10

putting air quotes around words like

1:03:12

Gulag or minimizing say like what

1:03:15

it was what it meant that

1:03:17

we are going to send more

1:03:19

people to Guantanamo. These are Gulag's.

1:03:21

Trump said more just on camera

1:03:23

more of them in for US

1:03:25

citizens. And we were totally hyperventilating

1:03:27

you absolutely like complete vicious liars.

1:03:29

Yeah. And then I like just

1:03:31

and and how. Obviously did it

1:03:33

have to be? How much did

1:03:35

he have to just say it?

1:03:38

It's the same thing. He's been

1:03:40

saying tariffs. He's been saying mass

1:03:42

deportations. He's been calling these people

1:03:44

criminals baselessly. And then you add

1:03:46

Rubio, that's the other side of

1:03:48

hand there, foreign policy. How is

1:03:50

this foreign policy when you're deporting

1:03:52

people from US soil who were

1:03:54

here and going through the process,

1:03:56

including that temporary removal blockage that

1:03:59

that... that matches described there. These

1:04:01

are people that were going through

1:04:03

the legal process, including those folks

1:04:05

that apply for Social Security numbers,

1:04:07

because they hope that one day

1:04:09

they can build up this equity

1:04:11

so they can become full US

1:04:13

citizens as they pay billions of

1:04:15

dollars into our social programs and

1:04:17

don't get anything out of it

1:04:19

in many instances. Like it's the

1:04:22

reverse of what they describe. So

1:04:24

it's not foreign policy. This isn't

1:04:26

about our relations with the Middle

1:04:28

East or with China or whatever.

1:04:30

These are people who are here

1:04:32

in the United States on US

1:04:34

soil. But when you say foreign

1:04:36

policy because We are, you can't

1:04:38

understand the moment that we're in

1:04:40

without understanding the war on terror

1:04:42

and our erosion of rights and

1:04:45

the fact that frankly Democrats did

1:04:47

not effectively rebuild the guardrails that

1:04:49

were destroyed by the Bush administration

1:04:51

under the guise of national security

1:04:53

and foreign policy. We now have

1:04:55

these massive institutions like ICE and

1:04:57

the Department of Homeland Security that

1:04:59

have this broad authority to bend

1:05:01

into fascist fully fascist organizations that

1:05:03

the Trump administration is using unilaterally

1:05:06

to crackdown on people without due

1:05:08

process, even in the face of

1:05:10

a 9-0 Supreme Court ruling, even

1:05:12

freaking Clarence Thomas told them this

1:05:14

is a bridge too far, and

1:05:16

Trump is defying it. I mean,

1:05:18

it's because we have a Nazi...

1:05:20

foreign policy. That includes Stephen Miller,

1:05:22

who is really the author of

1:05:24

this, who was exposed to Nazi,

1:05:26

basically white supremacist in Trump's first

1:05:29

term. You can Google that, look

1:05:31

it up. But like a white

1:05:33

Cuban, like Makarubio, fits right in

1:05:35

with that agenda, frankly, particularly our

1:05:37

entire history of suppressing any kind

1:05:39

of movements and partnering with reactionaries

1:05:41

like Bukelle, dictatorial reactionaries. This is

1:05:43

America. Can I say?

1:05:46

Regardless of whether, you know, putting

1:05:48

aside the actions of the US

1:05:50

government, putting aside the actions of

1:05:53

the Salvadoran government, individuals, regardless of

1:05:55

where they're from in the world,

1:05:57

have human rights. It's sort of

1:06:00

the base. of what had been

1:06:02

the established post-war order. Liberal order.

1:06:04

The concept, right? The concept of

1:06:07

human rights. And what the US

1:06:09

officials and Salvadoran officials have insinuated

1:06:11

is that those people who are

1:06:14

in that gulag will be there

1:06:16

for the rest of their lives.

1:06:18

And say what you, I mean,

1:06:21

obviously what happened in Guantanamo Bay

1:06:23

was an abomination and a perpetual

1:06:25

human rights abuse that continues to

1:06:28

this day, but at the very

1:06:30

least. The US, the Pentagon felt

1:06:32

some pressure to have some sort

1:06:35

of trial. Not everyone actually, there's

1:06:37

people who are being held there

1:06:39

who were not charged with anything.

1:06:42

But for the most part, they

1:06:44

felt some sort of pressure to

1:06:46

either charge people and have at

1:06:49

least a show trial, like at

1:06:51

least some sort of kangaroo court.

1:06:54

But in this case, these people

1:06:56

are being sent to El Salvador

1:06:58

for the rest of their lives.

1:07:01

without having so much has been

1:07:03

charged with a crime. Regardless of

1:07:05

where they're from and who's doing

1:07:08

it. And gang ties, as we've

1:07:10

gone through in this interview, or

1:07:12

in our past interviews, and with

1:07:15

Roberta today, are very flimsy and

1:07:17

are often used by local police

1:07:19

departments to have large scale databases

1:07:22

on poor men in cities. And

1:07:24

again, like broadly, even if somebody

1:07:26

like was affiliated with a gang

1:07:29

and teenage years or whatever, like

1:07:31

you, the way to deal with

1:07:33

that is it cannot be to

1:07:36

send them to a gulag with

1:07:38

no recourse, with no due process.

1:07:40

It's obviously dealing with gangs, like

1:07:43

a gang is a symptom. Yep.

1:07:45

With that said, Matt, what's happening

1:07:47

on left reckoning? I'll probably be

1:07:50

talking some Colorado Jared Polis with

1:07:52

a guest grace tomorrow on left

1:07:54

reckoning and yeah I mean broadly

1:07:57

freaking out about all this stuff.

1:07:59

Yep. All right, well,

1:08:01

we're going to head into the

1:08:04

fun half. We'll open up the

1:08:06

phone lines on the other side

1:08:08

of things. This show relies on

1:08:10

your support. Join the Majority report.com.

1:08:12

We could really use it in

1:08:14

these times. It keeps us afloat.

1:08:16

Appreciate all our members so much.

1:08:18

You can IM the show and

1:08:20

we'll read your IM's on air.

1:08:23

We'll do some right now before

1:08:25

heading into the fun half, just

1:08:27

as proof. Brooklyn Bess, our

1:08:29

democracy is over, we need mass

1:08:31

movements to hold off the worst

1:08:33

of what's to come and Democrats

1:08:36

won't save us. Yes. The truth

1:08:38

is like, we shouldn't think of

1:08:40

it as democracy was had and

1:08:42

lost. Democracy is something that has

1:08:44

always been struggled for and ground

1:08:46

been taken for it and ground

1:08:48

has been lost on it. We

1:08:51

need to... And I mean, this

1:08:53

is a real problem with Democrats

1:08:55

marketing of, you know, fighting fascism

1:08:57

and all of stuff, which is

1:08:59

like the idea that we just

1:09:01

need to put Democrats in power

1:09:03

is some kind of saving of

1:09:05

democracy. Democracy is in people. I

1:09:08

mean, it's a bit... It's also

1:09:10

in outcomes. When it wasn't like

1:09:12

Ben Franklin said, was it a

1:09:14

democracy if you can keep it

1:09:16

or a public if you can

1:09:18

keep it either way? That's the

1:09:20

issue. And the problem is... We

1:09:23

have had a lot of assaults

1:09:25

on the things that sustain democracy,

1:09:27

whether it's protests. being smeared as

1:09:29

anti-Semitic, which we all know what

1:09:31

the protests have done to advance

1:09:33

democracy in different generations. And now

1:09:35

we have a bipartisan effort to

1:09:38

call people anti-Semites for opposing genocide.

1:09:40

Unions. Unions were formative for the

1:09:42

new deal would have never happened

1:09:44

without massive labor and even socialist

1:09:46

and communist organizing. Those have been

1:09:48

completely destroyed in a bipartisan fashion.

1:09:50

Of course, not... putting all the

1:09:53

blame or equal blame, but it's

1:09:55

by Parson. And so yeah, we're

1:09:57

up Shitz Creek in a certain

1:09:59

sense, but at least... And there's

1:10:01

some consciousness about that and people

1:10:03

aren't looking, and what people can't

1:10:05

do is look to Nancy Pelosi

1:10:08

and Chuck Schumer. And frankly, I

1:10:10

could list a lot more Democrats

1:10:12

in that, but I'll be kind.

1:10:14

This is a moment that requires

1:10:16

a lot of urgency. things that

1:10:18

can't it can't just be a

1:10:20

oh we did good on the

1:10:22

midterms let's try to maintain this

1:10:25

and not address any of these

1:10:27

fundamental contradictions particularly Israel and hope

1:10:29

that we can get by without

1:10:31

it because it's gonna it's gonna

1:10:33

continue to bite the Democrats in

1:10:35

the ass like it has my

1:10:37

entire fucking life and it has

1:10:40

to be democracy not just in

1:10:42

selling the virtue of democracy but

1:10:44

in performing actions that engender like

1:10:46

democratic results which includes economic democracy

1:10:48

which includes making the rules of

1:10:50

the game favorable to equitable outcomes

1:10:52

for people, which includes taxing the

1:10:55

rich and not allowing them to

1:10:57

rig the rules of the game

1:10:59

and exploit capitalism even more than

1:11:01

they do by hoarding wealth. That's

1:11:03

also how you perform democracy and

1:11:05

that's why the Democrats... struggled to

1:11:07

send that message and i'm not

1:11:10

even just talking about you know

1:11:12

of course deliver union stuff and

1:11:14

blah blah the job by administration

1:11:16

that they had the power again

1:11:18

democrats continue having power and the

1:11:20

stuff and then they get in

1:11:22

power and say things like will

1:11:24

out organize voters oppression yeah like

1:11:27

i'm sorry that is that is

1:11:29

dirt on our fucking coffin right

1:11:31

All right guys, with that said,

1:11:33

we'll end to the fun half

1:11:35

and we'll see you there. Okay,

1:11:37

Emma, please. Well, I just, I

1:11:39

feel that my voice is sorely

1:11:42

lacking in the majority report. Wait,

1:11:44

look, Sam is unpopular. I do

1:11:46

deserve a vacation at Disney World.

1:11:48

So, ladies and gentlemen, it is

1:11:50

my pleasure to welcome Emma to

1:11:52

the show. It is Thursday. Yeah,

1:11:54

I think you need to take

1:11:57

over for Sam. Yes, please. I

1:11:59

encourage him to live like this.

1:12:01

And I'll tell you why. So

1:12:03

it was offered to work, to

1:12:05

chief, and poker with the boys.

1:12:30

We're gonna get demonetized. just think

1:12:32

that what you did to what

1:12:34

you did to Tim Poole Free speech. That's

1:12:36

not what we're about not Look

1:12:38

at how sad he's become now.

1:12:41

You shouldn't even talk about it,

1:12:43

because I think you're responsible. now. You

1:12:45

I probably am in a certain

1:12:47

way, but let's get to the

1:12:49

meltdown here. responsible. I probably am in a Oh

1:12:51

my god. way, but let's I'm sorry, I'm

1:12:53

losing my fucking mind. Someone's offered

1:12:55

Twerk? Sushi and Poker with the

1:12:58

boys. the boys. Oh my god. Suu-she. I

1:13:01

think I'm like a little kid. I think I'm like a little kid.

1:13:06

Add this debate 7 ,000 times. I think

1:13:08

I'm like a little kid. I'm

1:13:10

like a kid. I'm losing

1:13:12

my fucking mind. Some people just

1:13:14

don't understand. I'm not trying

1:13:16

to be a dick right now,

1:13:19

but we're absolutely think the US

1:13:21

should be here. It's not a fun job. It's

1:13:23

not a not what we're talking

1:13:25

about here. not what we're It's not

1:13:27

a fun job. here.

1:13:29

It's not a fun

1:13:31

job. Work. Twerk,

1:13:56

Sushi and Poker

1:13:58

with the boys. Take

1:14:00

it easy, Twerk. Sushi

1:14:02

and poker. Things have really gotten out

1:14:04

of hand. Sushi and poker with the

1:14:07

boys' allude. Sushi. You don't have a

1:14:09

clue as to what's going on live.

1:14:11

You, too. Sam has like the way

1:14:13

of the world on his shoulders. Sam

1:14:15

doesn't want to do this show anymore.

1:14:17

It was so much easier. Or the

1:14:19

majority report was just you. You're happy.

1:14:21

Let's change the subject group. Rangers and

1:14:23

Nick's going right. Shut up. I don't

1:14:25

want people saying reckless things on your

1:14:27

program. That's one of the most difficult

1:14:30

parts about this show. This is a

1:14:32

pro-killing podcast. I'm thinking maybe it's time

1:14:34

we bury the hatchet. Left is best.

1:14:36

Trump ist. Don't be foolish. And don't

1:14:38

fuck between it me and don't get

1:14:40

changed. Don't wait. fun

1:14:57

is real good. Are you

1:14:59

against us? That's a tough

1:15:01

question on an answer to

1:15:03

you. Incredible theme song. I

1:15:06

bumbler. Emma Viglin, absolutely one

1:15:08

of my favorite people. Actually

1:15:10

not just in the game

1:15:12

like period. We are back

1:15:14

folks it's the fun half.

1:15:16

It is the fun half.

1:15:18

All right, we are going

1:15:21

to open up the phone

1:15:23

lines now, 646.25.7.39.20 is the

1:15:25

phone number off to the

1:15:27

races if you want to

1:15:29

get on hold. Let's, uh...

1:15:31

You want to have fun

1:15:33

with this? All right, I'll

1:15:36

read some Iams while we're

1:15:38

figuring this out. Blue Ranger

1:15:40

says, I wonder what Robert's

1:15:42

reaction will be having his

1:15:44

authority challenged publicly like this,

1:15:46

not of some concern for

1:15:48

the balance of power of

1:15:51

the Constitution, but of his

1:15:53

own sense of self-importance? Or

1:15:55

maybe he keeps quiet in

1:15:57

hopes no one notices. I

1:15:59

think we need to not

1:16:01

over, like I agree that

1:16:04

there's some sort of concern

1:16:06

for courts and their power.

1:16:08

I think we need to

1:16:10

not over credit Roberts with

1:16:12

a desire to show spine.

1:16:14

I think he is... I

1:16:16

mean, is he a Brooks

1:16:19

Brothers rider? I'm not, I

1:16:21

can't remember if he himself

1:16:23

is, I know like Joe

1:16:25

Cap, I know there are

1:16:27

a bunch of them around

1:16:29

there, but like, I don't

1:16:31

know, I think he is

1:16:34

a part of the fascist

1:16:36

movement. Well, yeah, they're saying

1:16:38

that it's not, they basically

1:16:40

wonder how he's going to

1:16:42

react, just because out of

1:16:44

his own self-importance, which I

1:16:46

do think is something that's

1:16:49

an interesting angle, because they

1:16:51

did vote. Voting 9-0 against

1:16:53

this action was a way

1:16:55

to reassert their authority and

1:16:57

Trump is now saying I

1:16:59

don't really care about that

1:17:02

reassertion. Like they only value

1:17:04

one expression of power and

1:17:06

that's or two military and

1:17:08

violence and financial. I'll just

1:17:10

say if Trump has sent

1:17:12

the president that we can

1:17:14

ignore the Supreme Court now

1:17:17

I would say good get

1:17:19

it out of here. Jester

1:17:22

from Jersey said, so at what

1:17:24

point do Dem leaders openly acknowledge

1:17:26

that Trump is spitting on the

1:17:28

Constitution, at what point the Blue

1:17:30

States push back against federal agents

1:17:33

entering and blackballing their citizens? We've

1:17:35

got to make them. The point

1:17:37

where not doing so leads to

1:17:39

more unrest than doing so would.

1:17:42

MJS 617, Emma, I obviously can't

1:17:44

stand Bill Maher, but early in

1:17:46

my political education I was watching

1:17:48

real-time and relied on his weekly

1:17:50

skewering of Trump back in 2016

1:17:52

for some catharsis. But the idea

1:17:54

that he went to Marilago to

1:17:56

make peace with Trump after a

1:17:58

decade of criticizing him and while

1:18:01

his dictatorship is currently overdrive and

1:18:03

literally putting the balance of the

1:18:05

entire for a world in doubt,

1:18:07

it's truly a porn and Mars

1:18:09

should be relentlessly hammered for it.

1:18:11

He clearly did it out of

1:18:13

fear and self-preservation and he's trying

1:18:15

to spin it as no biggie

1:18:17

and I really hope he doesn't

1:18:19

get away with it. I mean...

1:18:21

I'm surprised he didn't do it

1:18:23

soon. You're still, I'm sorry, you're

1:18:25

being generous to Bill Maher. Bill

1:18:27

Maher is somebody who in like

1:18:29

the early 2000s was saying, yeah,

1:18:31

it's good that we went into,

1:18:33

this is liberals, I'm sorry, this

1:18:35

is like, this is coastal liberals

1:18:37

for you, this is why people

1:18:39

hate them, because Bill Maher, because

1:18:41

Bill Maher is, around the time

1:18:43

that he was saying, like, it's

1:18:45

coastal liberals. pretext besides we need

1:18:48

to stop communism because we need

1:18:50

to show our strength. That's just

1:18:52

what he believes. He is a

1:18:54

sicko who's been living in his

1:18:56

studio for 40 years. The other

1:18:58

Russert, when we spend one-third of

1:19:00

our day without democracy, it only

1:19:02

follows that they want to take

1:19:04

more. Pandemic anxiety. Andrew

1:19:06

Cuomo used chat sheet BT to

1:19:08

write his platform. Thanks Andrew for

1:19:10

bringing us one step closer to

1:19:12

AI overlords. Yes, his housing platform

1:19:14

is what Hellgate is reporting, which

1:19:16

is hilarious because that's probably the

1:19:18

number one issue for voting New

1:19:21

Yorkers in the city. And it's

1:19:23

unfortunate because he's getting some endorsements

1:19:25

from, you know, pastors and more

1:19:27

institutional parts of the city. And

1:19:29

he's trying, like, I think Zoran.

1:19:31

needs to make some gains in

1:19:33

the black community in the city

1:19:35

and it's Andrew Cuomo has a

1:19:37

lot of like more transactional politics

1:19:39

in other areas in the same

1:19:41

way Eric Adams did. Also establishing

1:19:44

black politics in New York is

1:19:46

disgustingly corrupt and all those people

1:19:48

should be ashamed of themselves. Yeah

1:19:50

there's a lot of that. I

1:19:52

mean the this is where you

1:19:54

don't like treating the black vote

1:19:56

as a monolith because there's some

1:19:58

generation of differences too. Older black

1:20:00

voters tend to be more conservative.

1:20:02

Just like older white voters. That's

1:20:04

issues with the unions as well.

1:20:07

Leadership, by and large, just completely

1:20:09

defensive cowardice. By scatual, you should

1:20:11

have Aaron in the morning back

1:20:13

on. She has some news about

1:20:15

the upcoming sham report. HHS is

1:20:17

going to put out like the

1:20:19

cast report. That's, um, Russ, if

1:20:21

we could write that down, that's

1:20:23

a great guess, Aaron, Aaron Reed

1:20:25

from Aaron in the morning. Edward

1:20:31

Gregorian, exceptions, exclusions, and exemptions sound

1:20:33

like a really shitty right-wing DEI.

1:20:35

Yes. All right, one quick call

1:20:37

and then we'll get to some

1:20:40

clips. Calling from an 864 area

1:20:42

code, who's this where you're calling

1:20:44

from? 864? Hello. So, first time

1:20:46

caller, long time listener. I just

1:20:48

wanted to pick your brain about

1:20:50

something really sure. Who's this? Where

1:20:52

are you calling from? Oh, I'm

1:20:55

so, I'm so sorry. I'm sorry.

1:20:57

My name is Dust. I'm from

1:20:59

upstate South Carolina. Duff from South

1:21:01

Carolina. Sorry? Dust from South Carolina.

1:21:03

Sorry. What's on your mind? Okay.

1:21:05

I wanted to ask you about

1:21:07

something really quick. Just a tiny

1:21:09

bit about preamble. I was thinking

1:21:12

about like that thing that people

1:21:14

do in an argument where they

1:21:16

don't engage with your point and

1:21:18

instead are just like, oh, well,

1:21:20

this person is clearly joking. They

1:21:22

were doing it in the comment

1:21:24

section of that PD video that

1:21:27

Sam was on, you know, obviously

1:21:29

a lot of the PDs were

1:21:31

just like saying that Sam clearly

1:21:33

was like playing a character or

1:21:35

joking around and you didn't believe

1:21:37

these things. I was also thinking

1:21:39

about that Sarge quote about like,

1:21:42

Anti, oh sorry, anti-Semites, know that

1:21:44

they sound absurd and you can't

1:21:46

like let them have that because

1:21:48

it gives them power over you.

1:21:50

So with that said, I'm just

1:21:52

curious. like you know people like

1:21:54

Ben Shapiro and you know Timpool

1:21:57

all of them are like serious

1:21:59

like to just say that they're

1:22:01

joking or that they're being genuine

1:22:03

or whatever is kind of like

1:22:05

playing down their politics and their

1:22:07

actual beliefs and it's you know

1:22:09

the threat that they hold we

1:22:11

can't like diminish that but I've

1:22:14

been watching one like Dave Rubin

1:22:16

stuff lately like I'm sorry I'm

1:22:18

having a hard time Exciting the

1:22:20

fact that Dave Rubin is actually

1:22:22

like not playing a character or

1:22:24

joking around and I'm just curious

1:22:26

what y'all's opinions are on that

1:22:29

because you met him. So, he

1:22:31

would have been like that. I've

1:22:33

never met him. Yeah, you're on

1:22:35

to something but I think you're

1:22:37

misinterpreting it slightly like Dave Rubin

1:22:39

is playing a character but it's

1:22:41

it's it's a way like if

1:22:44

you're an actor. This is actually

1:22:46

an analogy of falling down because

1:22:48

Dave Rubin's not actually good at

1:22:50

the performance. But what I'm saying

1:22:52

is like, certain actors, they're dumb.

1:22:54

You hear them talking like, oh,

1:22:56

you don't actually know how to

1:22:59

play like a scientist. But in

1:23:01

a scientist's role, they're convincing as

1:23:03

the scientist. Dave Rubin doesn't know

1:23:05

anything about anything about anything about

1:23:07

anything about anything. He didn't know

1:23:09

anything now when he was on

1:23:11

the right side of issues. He

1:23:14

doesn't know anything now that he's

1:23:16

on the wrong side of issues.

1:23:18

anti-vaxes are. That was him, he's

1:23:20

an actor. But it's basically people

1:23:22

who, right, people who have a

1:23:24

natural ability to like, when he

1:23:26

says things, he probably earnestly feels

1:23:28

them, right, in those moments. Like,

1:23:31

it's almost like, it's somebody that,

1:23:33

the people that succeed in these

1:23:35

areas don't have, you have to

1:23:37

understand core beliefs about anything, except

1:23:39

making money and attention, right? getting

1:23:41

validation and attention and money. And

1:23:43

when you fundamentally understand that, even

1:23:46

though it's hard, if you're invested

1:23:48

in politics and you're a long

1:23:50

time listening to this, you probably

1:23:52

have some pretty core progressive values.

1:23:54

Just think about somebody who has

1:23:56

none of that. And then you

1:23:58

get Dave Rubin and then it,

1:24:01

then you're able to be steered

1:24:03

towards an ideology even if you

1:24:05

don't have, even if you haven't

1:24:07

thought it through that much, he

1:24:09

might have like a cache of

1:24:11

reaction and emotion about being a

1:24:13

right winger now. that's like it's

1:24:16

a bit it's basically like a

1:24:18

balloon right and that's what's lifting

1:24:20

him up and sustaining him and

1:24:22

so his bank account's gotten much

1:24:24

bigger since he started saying the

1:24:26

crazy right wing stuff so it's

1:24:28

people that know how to perform

1:24:31

emotion and sometimes earnestly feel it

1:24:33

even if there's not necessarily anything

1:24:35

there beneath that surface so appreciate

1:24:37

the call thanks so much Do

1:24:39

you want to watch some old

1:24:41

Dave Ruben? Speaking of Dave Ruben,

1:24:43

yeah. So we can get to

1:24:45

this newer clip, or do you

1:24:48

want to watch this older clip

1:24:50

of him being anti-an infant? I

1:24:52

do want to watch this. I

1:24:54

do want to watch this. This

1:24:56

is, I mean, it really is

1:24:58

crazy. This is back in the

1:25:00

day when Dave was cutting his

1:25:03

teeth on the internet with TIT.

1:25:05

Here he is on, like, this

1:25:07

is what he used to sound

1:25:09

like before he left the left.

1:25:11

This is the Ruben report. And,

1:25:13

uh... How many years ago was

1:25:15

this? January 29, 2015. Wow, so

1:25:18

10 years ago, this is Dave

1:25:20

Rubin. With the Kara Santa Maria

1:25:22

of, uh, the Skeptics Guide to

1:25:24

the universe. Data, it's been a

1:25:26

movement. We're going to show a

1:25:28

graph just to show you how

1:25:30

much it's been growing in California.

1:25:33

We're going to show you that

1:25:35

in just a sec. But now

1:25:37

there's been an outbreak of measles

1:25:39

that apparently started at Disneyland. It's

1:25:41

talking about anti- the Antivax movement.

1:25:43

here in California. So I wanted

1:25:45

to just sort of get your

1:25:48

feelings on vaccinations, on this outbreak,

1:25:50

on the parental responsibility, the science

1:25:52

behind it, because that's what nobody,

1:25:54

everyone just talks about the the

1:25:56

scariness of it, sort of like

1:25:58

Ebola, which you cleaned up for

1:26:00

us last time. Did you make

1:26:02

a mess yet with vaccines? Make

1:26:05

a mess, I can't even enough.

1:26:07

Let's start with this. I'm going

1:26:09

to show you, take a look

1:26:11

at this. This is a map,

1:26:13

and you can see in this

1:26:15

map how over the last couple

1:26:17

years, that the amount of parents

1:26:20

that have chosen to opt out

1:26:22

of getting their kids vaccinated for

1:26:24

measles has increased in California. So

1:26:26

these are parents that use the

1:26:28

personal belief exemption. to get their

1:26:30

kids not vaccinated so they didn't

1:26:32

have to take the vaccinations. That

1:26:35

was that. That was pretty good.

1:26:37

Those red clusters there that you

1:26:39

see are more than 5% of

1:26:41

the population and those are just

1:26:43

verbal claims. People who have actually

1:26:45

said on paperwork that they are

1:26:47

taking that personal belief exemption. A

1:26:50

lot less people get vaccinated even

1:26:52

than that. Right. Okay, so let's

1:26:54

start for. Again, for like just

1:26:56

the layman basic people that know

1:26:58

nothing about science. Okay, people don't

1:27:00

want measles, right? No, you don't

1:27:02

want measles. You don't want measles.

1:27:04

So they vaccinated us for measles.

1:27:07

You've been vaccinated for measles, right?

1:27:09

I've been vaccinated. Remember you got,

1:27:11

it was called the MMR vaccine,

1:27:13

probably the measles mumps and rubella

1:27:15

vaccine. And these sound like Victorian

1:27:17

diseases. Right. Who do you know

1:27:19

that's? So I'll skip to a

1:27:22

different part of it here that

1:27:24

we can, I clipped early go,

1:27:26

but it's just wild. I mean,

1:27:28

he is, and that's why you

1:27:30

see like with Candace Owens and

1:27:32

like these types of figures, like

1:27:34

they have casting, they'll be a

1:27:37

tight one, they have casting pages

1:27:39

and stuff like that, because a

1:27:41

lot of these people, they just

1:27:43

wanted to be on the silver

1:27:45

screen, which is, you know, I

1:27:47

look, it's not what drew me

1:27:49

to this business, but anyway, here's

1:27:52

a little bit more. Vaccines? Make

1:27:54

a mess. Make a mess first.

1:27:56

Oh, okay. The end part? Yeah.

1:27:58

As a science communicator, as an

1:28:00

advocate for improving science literacy, and

1:28:02

also as somebody who's liberal, I

1:28:04

commonly throw the right wingers under

1:28:07

the bus when it comes to

1:28:09

anti-science. You know, we throw the

1:28:11

right wingers under the bus when

1:28:13

it comes to... climate change denial

1:28:15

and when it comes to denying

1:28:17

evolution. And then we like to

1:28:19

kind of play both sides and

1:28:21

say, yeah, but you know, the

1:28:24

left, they're really anti-science in their

1:28:26

way too with the woo-woo medicine

1:28:28

and the anti-vac stuff. But the

1:28:30

truth is, the anti-vac stuff is

1:28:32

a little more complicated than that.

1:28:34

Oh, all right, never mind. Oh,

1:28:36

all right. Let's, uh, Skid Mark

1:28:39

Twain says Ben Shapiro is a

1:28:41

failed actor screenwriter. That pipeline is

1:28:43

real. Um, Jeremy Boring, theater kid.

1:28:45

Yep. It's why, you know, uh,

1:28:47

there's more that tends to be.

1:28:49

Sam Cedar, could have been somebody.

1:28:51

Could have been somebody. It's bitter,

1:28:54

so bitter. All right, let's, this

1:28:56

is actually funny. I want to

1:28:58

do 14. So. Since we're on

1:29:00

the anti-Vac speed, over the weekend,

1:29:02

there was a UFC match. And

1:29:04

this one a little bit viral.

1:29:06

Cheryl Hines, wife of RFK Jr,

1:29:09

appeared to be snubbed by Donald

1:29:11

Trump. And I have a theory

1:29:13

about this, but let's just watch

1:29:15

some of this footage, because he

1:29:17

just doesn't look at her or

1:29:19

acknowledge her. Let's just see if

1:29:21

we can soak this in a

1:29:24

little bit more. It's crazy. It's

1:29:26

insane. Geez! Oh, go back, go

1:29:28

back, go back, go back, go

1:29:30

back. I want to see her

1:29:32

shrug after that. I almost want

1:29:34

to watch it in slow motion.

1:29:36

Can we do it in slow...

1:29:38

Thank you, thank you mad for

1:29:41

reading my mind. Let's just see

1:29:43

if we can soak this in

1:29:45

a little bit more. She thought

1:29:47

he's at the White House to

1:29:49

fight for all. Paddy, Bobby, love

1:29:51

him, thanks to what he did.

1:29:53

And then she taps him. She

1:29:56

taps him. Oh, she made him

1:29:58

worse. She made it so. Oh,

1:30:00

why would you do the tap

1:30:03

when he walked away when he

1:30:05

ignored you? Oh. I heard what

1:30:07

you just said in the Larry

1:30:09

David voice. No, she did the

1:30:12

tap. You can never do the

1:30:14

tap. You can do the shake,

1:30:16

no shake, no tap, no tap,

1:30:19

Cheryl. Yeah, I mean, so I

1:30:21

guess this is also because... she

1:30:23

had back in the day criticized

1:30:25

Donald Trump. That's what this is.

1:30:28

And there was some rumor that

1:30:30

she didn't want him to join

1:30:32

the Trump administration and she made

1:30:34

some joke that she'd leave him.

1:30:37

She didn't want to blow up

1:30:39

her social life. Yeah, turns out,

1:30:41

didn't matter, didn't matter. It was

1:30:43

the proximity to power. But God,

1:30:46

that is satisfying. To see, yeah,

1:30:48

everyone saying, curb your enthusiasm, music.

1:30:50

Exactly right. I mean, she does

1:30:52

not look at home there. It

1:30:55

really is a far cry from,

1:30:57

it was in Miami, had a

1:30:59

UFC fight, maybe not as glamorous

1:31:01

as some Hollywood production. But it

1:31:04

is actually a weird, interesting way

1:31:06

to go to 13. Maybe we

1:31:08

can do that now, because UFC

1:31:10

is at issue in this, in

1:31:13

this segment that was on CNN

1:31:15

over the weekend, which I find

1:31:17

fascinating, and probably why someone like

1:31:19

Cheryl Hines might not. be as

1:31:22

into these kinds of events. We're

1:31:24

seeing the evolution of this manosphere

1:31:26

internet culture that I think was

1:31:28

a big part of Donald Trump's

1:31:31

win. In 2024 and why some

1:31:33

younger men, according to polling, were

1:31:35

more supportive of Donald Trump and

1:31:37

we'll see how that bears out.

1:31:40

But this woman spent a year

1:31:42

dating far-right men and reported back

1:31:44

to CNN about what she found.

1:31:46

Test. This is Vera Papasova. She

1:31:49

spent the last year dating far-right

1:31:51

men in New York City for

1:31:53

a story for Cosmopolitan. magazine. They're

1:31:55

the most insecure men I've ever

1:31:58

sat down with. It was really

1:32:00

difficult to have some of these

1:32:02

dates because they were so insecure

1:32:05

because they don't really know who

1:32:07

they are and they don't know

1:32:09

how to figure that out. She

1:32:11

said the men she dated got

1:32:14

all their news and information from

1:32:16

the so-called Manosphere. They did not

1:32:18

listen to anything else. They're only

1:32:20

listening to independent media and they're

1:32:23

only listening to men talking to

1:32:25

men. The Mano sphere is made

1:32:27

up of macho podcasters and influencers.

1:32:29

There's no such as independent female.

1:32:32

Most women have zero concept of

1:32:34

white money. Females don't have independent

1:32:36

thought. It's a space where UFC

1:32:38

fighters are among those who reign

1:32:41

supreme. They love the UFC guys.

1:32:43

They love the MMA guys because

1:32:45

those guys do what they can.

1:32:47

They're modern... Gladiators, they're bad ass.

1:32:50

Bad ass like Jake Shields, a

1:32:52

former U.S.C. star turn podcaster. Sorry.

1:32:54

Now I'm starting to feel nervous.

1:32:56

Thanks for having us. Yeah, of

1:32:59

course. All right, let's get ahead.

1:33:01

I don't really care about this

1:33:03

guy. Isn't this guy like an

1:33:05

actual big time anti-Semite? Is that

1:33:08

the same guy? I'm pretty sure

1:33:10

like even Rogan was like that.

1:33:12

Yeah, but this is the CNN

1:33:14

reporter that goes underground with like

1:33:17

the proud boys and stuff like

1:33:19

that. So I'm assuming this is

1:33:21

the kind of profile that he's

1:33:23

doing, but just like skip maybe

1:33:26

the three minutes when they interview

1:33:28

her again. I don't need to

1:33:30

see this part. Yeah, it's probably

1:33:32

around three minutes in. Yeah. So

1:33:35

I just here we go back

1:33:37

to the reporter here. But Vera

1:33:39

says hate isn't what the men

1:33:41

were saying. But Vera says hate

1:33:44

isn't what the men she dated

1:33:46

were really looking for. One of

1:33:48

these guys brought me to a

1:33:51

political meeting. And did they talk

1:33:53

about politics? Barely. They talked about,

1:33:55

it was a bunch of men

1:33:57

complaining about girlfriends and wives. regurgitating

1:34:00

Andrew Tate type of advice about

1:34:02

how to train your girlfriend how

1:34:04

to train your wife to be

1:34:06

submissive and so this group was

1:34:09

supposed to be a political group

1:34:11

but they're talking about relationship problems

1:34:13

and the fact that that's what

1:34:15

most of the time was spent

1:34:18

on you don't need to be

1:34:20

a neo-Nazi you need therapy. The

1:34:22

Appeal of Jake's podcast speaks to

1:34:24

a need among young men in

1:34:27

this country that Vera says can't

1:34:29

be ignored. You have to incentivize

1:34:31

someone to want to be better.

1:34:33

You can't just say let's make

1:34:36

men better. The thing about these

1:34:38

guys is their biggest support system

1:34:40

is online. That also is very

1:34:42

isolating and isolation is what freeds

1:34:45

hatred. Groups like Patriot Front offer

1:34:47

community, a community based on racism

1:34:49

and race. People have to really

1:34:51

think about, do you have the

1:34:54

capacity to talk to people that

1:34:56

you don't agree with? Because that

1:34:58

one nice conversation you might have

1:35:00

might change someone's day enough to

1:35:03

not have to seek out help

1:35:05

in an online support group, which

1:35:07

is actually... Yeah, I'm not sure

1:35:09

about that part because it's a

1:35:12

little more complicated than that. But

1:35:14

I mean, great reporting on her

1:35:16

front and she did a piece

1:35:18

on it as well. But this

1:35:21

is what we come back to

1:35:23

all the time about some of

1:35:25

these groups and why young men

1:35:27

are trending more misogynistic or misogynistically

1:35:30

at least in this current moment

1:35:32

or reactionary or reactionary or right

1:35:34

winging or right wingary or right

1:35:36

wing. You can usually, those groups

1:35:39

are always going to exist, right?

1:35:41

But in times of abundance, not

1:35:43

really, in times of better economic

1:35:46

and economic conditions and when baseline

1:35:48

needs are met, when there's more

1:35:50

upward mobility, when there's about the

1:35:52

future, you're less likely to have

1:35:55

these reactionary groups gain in prominence

1:35:57

because there is a sense of

1:35:59

purpose that is found outside of

1:36:01

insular and often hateful communities. And

1:36:04

part of what Honestly, I think

1:36:06

I missed in the lead up

1:36:08

to this election was these insular

1:36:10

communities that I don't understand of

1:36:13

the Manosphere or these online far-right

1:36:15

influencer spaces because they are definitionally

1:36:17

insular and it creates antisocial behavior,

1:36:19

but it also gives people at

1:36:22

least some sort of temporary release

1:36:24

to the lack to the alienation

1:36:26

that people are feeling exacerbated during

1:36:28

COVID, but really exacerbated as incoming

1:36:31

wealth inequality continues to worsen and

1:36:33

We've had multiple recessions, we've had

1:36:35

multiple economic crises, and what is

1:36:37

the result of that? What was

1:36:40

the result of the Great Recession

1:36:42

in 2008? More transfer of wealth

1:36:44

to the top. What was the

1:36:46

result of COVID and the economic

1:36:49

crisis? Well, there was naturally occurring

1:36:51

inflation, but then greed flation, where

1:36:53

corporations took advantage and got richer

1:36:55

after that. And like during that

1:36:58

process of also of social alienation

1:37:00

and of lack of upward mobility,

1:37:02

is it shocking? Is it shocking?

1:37:04

that men go to these spaces

1:37:07

and there's more speculation too with

1:37:09

fine finances whether it's crypto whether

1:37:11

it's gambling credit card debt for

1:37:13

men in states where gambling is

1:37:16

legal i keep saying this is

1:37:18

just through the roof this create

1:37:20

this is the stew for reactionary

1:37:22

sentiment like this yeah look at

1:37:25

what uh... debt does to overall

1:37:27