0:02

Stress got you spinning? Look, I

0:04

get it. With everything going on

0:06

in the world, plus all the

0:09

daily demands of living, I can

0:11

feel overwhelming. Which is why I

0:13

want to share with you a

0:15

free five-minute tool that will help

0:17

you slow down and focus on

0:19

what really matters. You can download

0:22

it for free now at Marie

0:24

lovesu.com/Stress Log. This is a powerful

0:26

little ritual that will melt away

0:28

your toxic stress fast. So go

0:30

to Marielovesu.com/stress log and get it

0:32

now. Mark Manson is a New York

0:35

Times best-selling author, blogger,

0:37

and entrepreneur. Mark is known

0:39

for his unique brand of

0:42

life advice or as he puts

0:44

it, personal development that doesn't suck.

0:46

His writing has been featured on

0:49

Forbes, Time, and CNN, among others,

0:51

and his website, Mark manson.net, boasts

0:53

over 2 million readers a month.

0:56

His best-selling book is called The

0:58

Subtle Art of Not Giving a

1:00

Fuck, a counterintuitive approach to living a

1:02

good life, where he talks about

1:05

how the key to living a

1:07

better life isn't caring about more,

1:09

but rather focusing on less. Mark,

1:11

thank you so much for being on the

1:13

show. Thanks for having me. So

1:15

I'm really curious. I want you

1:18

to take me back to the

1:20

blog post that inspired all of

1:22

this goodness. What inspired you to

1:24

write the original blog post that

1:26

inspired the book? I had the idea for

1:28

the title for years, and the way

1:31

I work with my articles is I

1:33

don't, I don't plan them. I just

1:35

kind of, I brainstorm a bunch

1:37

of different ideas, and then... when

1:39

it comes time to write something,

1:42

I just look at it and pick

1:44

whatever feels good. So this title

1:46

sat on my little sheet for

1:48

like two, three years, and it's

1:51

such a good title that I

1:53

was like, I need to come up

1:55

with something that, you know, deserves

1:57

the fucks. I can say fuck,

1:59

right? given the best warning

2:01

ever and I've told everyone like

2:03

if they give me any shit

2:05

about saying fuck that they need

2:07

to shut the fuck up because

2:10

we've already worn them. All right

2:12

cool so it was actually it

2:14

was like a dreary Saturday and

2:16

I just started feeling very I

2:18

was kind of down and when

2:20

I get down I start feeling

2:22

very sarcastic and irreverent and just

2:24

like to write a bunch of

2:26

bullshit and so I was like,

2:28

I'm going to sit down, I'm

2:30

going to write an article, and

2:32

it's going to do two things.

2:34

One, it's going to be the

2:36

most offensive and vulgar thing anybody's

2:38

ever read. And two, it's going

2:40

to give the best life advice

2:42

that anybody's ever read. And I'm

2:44

going to do it at the

2:46

same time, and I want to

2:48

create this mixture of emotion. And

2:50

so yeah, I sat down, banged

2:52

it out, and it went crazy.

2:54

I mean it was shared over

2:56

a million times. When I first

2:58

read it, I laughed so many

3:00

times and was like howling out

3:02

loud and I looked back in

3:04

my email chain and to see

3:06

like all the people that I

3:08

sent it to because I just

3:10

thought it was genius and it

3:12

was lovely and wonderful and insightful

3:14

and so much of what many

3:16

of us think and feel, but

3:18

haven't necessarily sat down to take

3:20

the time to articulate or to

3:22

look at through that particular perspective.

3:24

You make an important distinction about

3:26

the subtle art of not giving

3:28

a fuck near the top of

3:30

your book. You say not giving

3:32

a fuck does not mean being

3:34

indifferent. It means being comfortable with

3:36

being different. Talk to us about

3:38

that. And this is this is

3:40

a big hang-up because when people

3:42

here are not giving a fuck,

3:44

they imagine like a guy drinking

3:46

beer at a funeral with sunglasses

3:48

on and like just... being really

3:50

disrespectful and indifferent to what's going

3:52

on around them. And the truth

3:54

is that indifference is not, it

3:56

doesn't solve any of your life

3:58

problems. Indifference is actually just another

4:00

form of avoidance of life's problems.

4:03

And so a healthy form of

4:05

not giving a fuck, like what

4:07

people aspire to when they say

4:09

like, oh, I just wish I

4:11

didn't give a fuck about this,

4:13

is they wish that they didn't

4:15

give a fuck about whatever adversity

4:17

or struggles that they need to

4:19

deal with to accomplish their goals.

4:21

And they have a hard time

4:23

doing that. So it's not giving

4:25

a fuck is all about learning

4:27

how to simply be comfortable with

4:29

the adversity. Yeah, and I also

4:31

think again, I read your book

4:33

and loved it. It's about parsing

4:35

down to what really matters so

4:37

that you can focus and devote

4:39

your life's heart and energy and

4:41

attention and creative ability to the

4:43

things that genuinely matter to you.

4:45

You have this little term in

4:47

the book called the feedback loop

4:49

from hell. I want to talk

4:51

about that and how to short

4:53

circuit it. You wrote by not

4:55

giving a fuck that you feel

4:57

bad. You short circuit the feedback

4:59

loop from hell. You say to

5:01

yourself. I feel like shit, but

5:03

who gives a fuck? And then,

5:05

as if sprinkled by magic, fuck-giving

5:07

fairy dust, you stop hating yourself

5:09

or feeling so bad. There was

5:11

something about this that I thought

5:13

was so incredibly insightful, because especially

5:15

in the world, personal development, of

5:17

self-development, of spiritual growth, people... seem

5:19

to always be striving for the

5:21

state of happiness or joy or

5:23

satisfaction and there's absolute value in

5:25

that. However, there is also value

5:27

in another perspective of not beating

5:29

yourself up for not being in

5:31

those states. So I was wondering

5:33

if you could unpack that a

5:35

little bit for us. Yeah, I

5:37

mean, one of the big points

5:39

I wanted to get across with

5:41

the book is that it's okay

5:43

to feel bad. like we're all

5:45

you're gonna feel bad sometimes I

5:47

don't care how successful you are

5:49

I don't care how amazing your

5:51

life is how great your relationships

5:53

are everybody's gonna feel bad sometimes

5:55

and a huge component of living

5:58

a healthy life is being good

6:00

at accepting that because when you

6:02

you stop accepting that. You know,

6:04

when you try to deny your

6:06

anger, or you get mad at

6:08

yourself because you're anxious, or you

6:10

feel bad, because you feel bad,

6:12

it creates this feedback loop. You

6:14

know, you start feeling guilty at

6:16

how guilty you feel all the

6:18

time, or you start getting angry

6:20

at the fact that you're angry,

6:22

which makes you even more angry.

6:24

And then you just start spiraling

6:26

out of control. And the whole

6:28

problem is this judgment that negative

6:30

emotions are not acceptable. You know,

6:32

if you feel anxious, You say,

6:34

fuck it, being anxious is part

6:36

of life. Like, it's normal to

6:38

be anxious. You're probably anxious for

6:40

a good reason. If you're angry,

6:42

you might be angry for a

6:44

good reason. These negative emotions aren't

6:46

necessarily negative. A lot of times

6:48

they're very helpful. And so it's

6:50

just learning how to care about

6:52

something deeper than the emotion itself.

6:54

And I think for me, what

6:56

I got out of that particular

6:58

part of it was not... beating

7:00

yourself up, thinking that you're a

7:02

bad, successful person or you're not

7:04

a healthy, striving human being who's,

7:06

you know, joyful all the time.

7:08

And there was such relief in

7:10

that sentence. I just thought it

7:12

was an incredibly fresh perspective to

7:14

bring to the conversation of, you

7:16

know, whether it's how to have

7:18

a fantastic life or a great

7:20

life or a healthy life or

7:22

whatever kind of umbrella people want

7:24

to stick it in. The other

7:26

part that really made me truckle,

7:28

I loved... disappointment Panda. The superhero,

7:30

the truth-telling superhero that nobody wants

7:32

around, but everyone really needs. And

7:34

I love his sage wisdom. Don't

7:36

hope for a life without problems.

7:38

There's no such thing. Instead, hope

7:40

for a life full of good

7:42

problems. What is the disappointment Panda,

7:44

which I believe is really you,

7:46

Mr. Mark Manson. Tell us about

7:48

that. Disappointment Panda. There's a section

7:50

in the book. I said I

7:53

want to create a superhero that...

7:55

Tells people uncomfortable truths about themselves

7:57

and it would be a superhero

7:59

that nobody would want around because

8:01

it would just ruin the party

8:03

and But it's stuff we need

8:05

to hear because honestly, the most

8:07

important things that we ever hear

8:09

in our life are often extremely

8:11

painful to hear. And I think

8:13

when people think about some of

8:15

their key breakthroughs, like they can

8:17

relate to that. It's often really

8:19

uncomfortable to like learn that thing

8:21

about yourself that kind of sets

8:23

you free. And so disappointment Panda

8:25

would be the superhero that walks

8:27

around knocking on doors and like

8:29

telling people like, hey, making more

8:31

money is not going to make

8:33

your kids love you. And it's

8:35

like a stab in the chest

8:37

and the person like slamps the

8:39

door, but it's what they need

8:41

to hear. And it's, in a

8:43

sense, this whole book, this whole

8:45

book or my work in general.

8:47

as being disappointment panda. And that's

8:49

why you have all the humor,

8:51

you have all the fucks, you

8:53

have all the silly language and

8:55

the superheroes and everything because ultimately

8:57

I try to talk about really

8:59

painful stuff and it's the only

9:01

way you get people to listen

9:03

to it or to read it

9:05

or be interested in reading it

9:07

is to to make it fun

9:09

and to make it kind of

9:11

shocking. I thought the insight about

9:13

problems though was a really important

9:15

one. You know, to try and

9:17

get rid of problems is not

9:19

really the goal because that A,

9:21

that's not possible. But B, that

9:23

actually happiness from your perspective, and

9:25

let me know if I got

9:27

this wrong or if there's an

9:29

adjustment, but so much happiness or

9:31

satisfaction or fulfillment, comes from the

9:33

solving of problems. So to eliminate

9:35

that, you actually are doing yourself

9:37

a disservice. is that's exactly right

9:39

problems are basically the building block

9:41

of happiness and that is really

9:43

counterintuitive to most people because most

9:46

people think of happiness is like

9:48

no problems you know sitting on

9:50

the beach with a pina colata

9:52

doing whatever and but the the

9:54

truth is that we need we

9:56

need some sort of struggle in

9:58

our life and the point I

10:00

try to make in the book

10:02

is that the key to living

10:04

a good life isn't getting rid

10:06

of struggle, it's finding good struggles,

10:08

struggles that invigorate you, struggles that

10:10

feel important to you, struggles that

10:12

can contribute to the people around

10:14

you, because that's where meaning comes

10:16

from, and ultimately meaning is... you

10:18

know, what we all need. So

10:20

I can hear people potentially listening

10:22

to this and say, okay Mark,

10:24

I kind of get that. But

10:26

what if my struggles or my

10:28

problems right now are really sucky?

10:30

You know, what if they're really

10:32

difficult and I don't really see

10:34

how they can produce meaning or

10:36

contribution? What would you say to

10:38

that audience member? Well, it's ultimately

10:40

you need to find a way.

10:42

to solve them. I mean, you

10:44

can't, you're never going to get

10:46

away from the problems. And so

10:48

really what it's about is choosing

10:50

your problems. You know, so if

10:52

there's, if there's a problem, if

10:54

people listening to this like feel

10:56

stuck in some way, generally when

10:58

people feel stuck, it's because they're

11:00

in a situation where they believe

11:02

that they don't have the power

11:04

to solve whatever's going on in

11:06

your life or be, create the

11:08

meaning. around whatever's happening in your

11:10

life. So it's usually just a

11:12

matter of first changing perspective and

11:14

then be doing something the set

11:16

about solving it. And again, what

11:18

gets people stuck is that they

11:20

just they want to eliminate their

11:22

problems. It's not about eliminating problems.

11:24

It's about simply finding something more

11:26

meaningful, more worthwhile. If that makes

11:28

sense. It does make sense. You

11:30

know, another philosophy that I think

11:32

you and I share is this

11:34

question. And you think it's the

11:36

most important question that one can

11:38

ask themselves and I tend to

11:41

agree. It's not about what will

11:43

make you happy, but what pain

11:45

are you willing to sustain? You

11:47

know, what are you willing to

11:49

suffer for? I would love you

11:51

to tell us a story about

11:53

your rock star fantasies because I

11:55

think that sets the context and

11:57

the meaning for the question. So

11:59

it's easy for people to dream

12:01

and envision like some big success.

12:03

We all sit around and have

12:05

these big visions for ourselves. That

12:07

feels good. That's great. The problem

12:09

is that what actually produces success

12:11

is our ability to enjoy the

12:13

struggle involved in it. So when

12:15

I was young, I wanted to

12:17

be a rock star. I played

12:19

guitar. I wanted to be in

12:21

bands. I always used to fantasize

12:23

about myself on stage and rocking

12:25

out and going crazy and everything.

12:27

It took me years and years

12:29

and years to realize that I

12:31

didn't really like the practice. I

12:33

didn't like rehearsing. I didn't like

12:35

dealing with like gear and figuring

12:37

out like how to hook everything

12:39

up. Didn't like getting gigs. And

12:41

so it turned out the really

12:43

the only thing I liked was

12:45

sitting around envisioning myself being this

12:47

awesome rock star or I didn't

12:49

actually like the work. And so...

12:51

Unsurprisingly, nothing ever came from it.

12:53

You know, I spent over a

12:55

decade dreaming about it, telling myself

12:57

I was going to do it,

12:59

and I never did it. The

13:01

counterpoint I tell people is with

13:03

writing. So I never dreamed of

13:05

being a successful writer. I never

13:07

had any ambition to be a

13:09

successful writer. is because I enjoyed

13:11

the work of writing. I, I,

13:13

since I was a kid, I

13:15

was always the guy sitting on

13:17

forms writing pages explaining why everybody

13:19

else was wrong and like, you

13:21

know, being that annoying guy on

13:23

Facebook who like starts political arguments

13:25

just because, you know, I just,

13:27

I love just spilling words out.

13:29

And, um, and when I started

13:31

my online businesses, that just naturally

13:33

started to take over everything. And

13:36

it wasn't, it wasn't ever a

13:38

conscious fantasy of mine. It was

13:40

just. I enjoyed the struggle of

13:42

writing. Like things that other people

13:44

hate about writing, I enjoyed. Like

13:46

I just naturally thrive at, you

13:48

know. I thought it was interesting

13:50

because I had Elizabeth Gilbert on

13:52

and she had mentioned it because

13:54

she had referenced that idea. in

13:56

Big Magic and we had a

13:58

lot of fun about it. You

14:00

are the shit sandwich guy, which

14:02

is awesome. But it's such a

14:04

important conversation to have because I

14:06

think one of the prevalent situations

14:08

and the time we're living in

14:10

right now is people, not all

14:12

people, but some people that are

14:14

watching the show have access to

14:16

a lot of potential career choices,

14:18

business choices, and there's so much

14:20

freedom. There's almost... It's a paralyzing

14:22

nature of, well, I could do

14:24

anything. And they think about the

14:26

fantasies of being on stage and

14:28

having thousands or millions of people

14:30

chanting their name for whatever reason.

14:32

But the shit sandwich that comes

14:34

along with that career or that

14:36

business, they never quite give it

14:38

enough attention. And they don't realize

14:40

that most jobs or professions or

14:42

businesses are not glamorous 99% of

14:44

the time. It's hard work. And

14:46

so I would ask you this.

14:48

He said that you enjoy. writing.

14:50

You enjoy pouring words out. Do

14:52

you struggle with that ever? Like

14:54

do you ever finders? But meaning

14:56

do you like the shit sandwich

14:58

that comes along with writing? I

15:00

absolutely struggle with it, but I

15:02

enjoy it. Yes. You know, there's

15:04

a difference. So for instance, like

15:06

I could never do what you

15:08

do. Like I'm fine coming here

15:10

doing an interview. But just video,

15:12

the whole thing, I've tried it

15:14

and it's just... Not your jam.

15:16

Yeah, it's just like the the

15:18

struggles involved in doing all of

15:20

this It's just yeah, it's not

15:22

for me It's like it just

15:24

it's it feels stifling it feels

15:26

difficult. It feels like I don't

15:29

know what I'm doing whereas with

15:31

the writing stuff. It's like I

15:33

Kind of I get this sick

15:35

pleasure out of like sitting in

15:37

my room until four in the

15:39

morning like deleting a paragraph over

15:41

and over and over again like

15:43

there's something it hurts but there's

15:45

like something invigorating about it for

15:47

me and so it makes sense

15:49

in hindsight it makes sense that

15:51

I ended up there so yeah

15:53

the pain is totally still there

15:55

it's just it's the pain you

15:57

want it's the pain you enjoy

15:59

I mean I, uh, to make

16:01

a, like, Arnold Schwarzenegger, I don't

16:03

know if you've ever seen, uh,

16:05

I haven't. Pumping iron? I haven't.

16:07

So, there's a part in pumping

16:09

iron is the documentary about him

16:11

as a bodybuilder. There is a

16:13

part in pumping iron where they're

16:15

asked, like, he, so he would

16:17

go to the gym for like

16:19

four hours a day and he

16:21

would literally, like, like, this looks.

16:23

You're torturing yourself, like this looks

16:25

horrible. And Schwarzenegger is like, yeah,

16:27

but he's like, I love the

16:29

pain. Like, he's like, I love

16:31

the pain of like lifting weights.

16:33

He compared it to having an

16:35

orgasm. He's like, I come every

16:37

day in the gym is an

16:39

orgasm. He said it differently. But

16:41

you could find it on YouTube

16:43

if you really care. But it's,

16:45

like, that's what I'm talking about.

16:47

It's like, we all have that

16:49

pain that like, like, like, like,

16:51

like, some sick pleasure pleasure pleasure

16:53

pleasure pleasure out of pleasure out

16:55

of. And we have to leverage

16:57

that, you know, because that's what's

16:59

going to bring us to success.

17:01

Oh my goodness, I adore you

17:03

because you're still listening. Now look.

17:05

You are clearly someone who goes

17:07

all the way in life. And

17:09

that's why you should become an

17:11

MF insider. It's a weekly inspiration

17:13

explosion in your inbox in the

17:15

best way possible, of course. Seriously,

17:17

though, you're about to get so

17:19

much love, so much motivation. It

17:21

might just be illegal. Head over

17:24

to Marie forlio.com/subscribe. Your inbox. Well

17:26

thank you for it. I want

17:28

to move on to the topic

17:30

of uncertainty, which is another topic

17:32

that you cover in the book,

17:34

and I think it's a really

17:36

important topic because it freaks a

17:38

lot of people out. You said

17:40

something, I thought, was very insightful,

17:42

certainty is the enemy of growth.

17:44

And so let's talk about that

17:46

for a minute, and I have

17:48

something else under certainty. Uncertainy. Yeah,

17:50

there's like, there's an old adage,

17:52

I think it's like some Greek

17:54

philosopher, somebody much smarter than I

17:56

am. And it's true. I mean,

17:58

if you think you know everything

18:00

that's true about your life, then

18:02

you're never, you're gonna be less

18:04

motivated to try something different. You're

18:06

gonna be less motivated to take

18:08

different perspectives. And this plays into,

18:10

especially like a lot of people

18:12

who struggle with like fear or

18:14

anxiety. You know, if you take

18:16

somebody with like social anxiety, usually

18:18

there's some certainty underlying that, like

18:20

there's certain that like. these people

18:22

are going to think they're a

18:24

loser or they're certain that these

18:26

people like don't want to talk

18:28

to them and they never actually

18:30

think to question that certainty that

18:32

you know maybe actually people in

18:34

a room aren't thinking about you

18:36

maybe they're just as nervous as

18:38

you are maybe the conversation you

18:40

just had where you had catch

18:42

up on your shirt like doesn't

18:44

really matter and everybody's gonna forget

18:46

it in 10 minutes and so

18:48

it's actually this constant questioning of

18:50

your assumptions becomes very liberating. in

18:52

many ways, once you're able to

18:54

do it. I think that's very

18:56

true in business as well. Yes.

18:58

It's essential. You know, if you

19:00

think you're certain of your business

19:02

model, of your audience, of how

19:04

things are going to look over

19:06

the next year, especially if you

19:08

have a business model that has

19:10

any interaction with the digital space,

19:12

that certainty will kill you. Oh,

19:14

yeah. It changes really fast. And

19:17

it's, you know, one of the

19:19

most important lessons in sales is

19:21

you meet the customer where they

19:23

are, not where you are, you

19:25

are, you know, you know, you

19:27

know. If I think my book

19:29

is great, I could walk around

19:31

all day and night being like,

19:33

this is the best thing ever,

19:35

you should read this. But it

19:37

doesn't, if I'm so certain in

19:39

myself, if I'm not paying attention

19:41

to the people I'm trying to

19:43

reach and the audience and the

19:45

readers and what they're thinking and

19:47

what they're feeling, and I'm not

19:49

willing to question my own assumptions

19:51

about what's good, what works, what

19:53

helps people. You're just going to

19:55

end up with a crappy book

19:57

that only you like and nobody

19:59

else does. Well, thankfully, that's not

20:01

the case here because it now

20:03

is a New York Times bestseller,

20:05

which is awesome. You know, there's

20:07

another bit of... uncertainty that I

20:09

pulled from the book, this was

20:11

really powerful. You can't be an

20:13

important and life-changing presence for some

20:15

people without also being a joke

20:17

and an embarrassment to others. What

20:19

do you mean by that? Boldness,

20:21

doing anything boldly, taking any sort

20:23

of bold action or stance on

20:25

anything, by its very nature, it's

20:27

polarizing. So you're cause a very

20:29

positive reaction in some people, but

20:31

you also cause a very negative

20:33

reaction in other people. And the

20:35

reasons why it doesn't really matter.

20:37

I mean, the point is that

20:39

there's always, you know, just to

20:41

boil it down to like internet

20:43

memes, haters gonna hate. Like, there's

20:45

always gonna be haters. No matter

20:47

what, no matter what you do.

20:49

Unless you just sit at home

20:51

and do nothing. You know, there's

20:53

gonna be haters for everything. And...

20:55

It's important to understand that dichotomy

20:57

that you can't do anything great

20:59

and not be criticized by somebody

21:01

somewhere and Accepting that Has been

21:03

very helpful for me in a

21:05

lot of times in my life

21:07

and not even just in business

21:09

or with my writing but like

21:12

in my personal relationships dating for

21:14

instance like If you're gonna put

21:16

yourself out there and really show

21:18

your personality You're going to turn

21:20

some people off. And so I

21:22

think a lot of, like a

21:24

lot of people, not to get

21:26

off from too much on a

21:28

tangent, but like a lot of

21:30

people who struggle in dating, it's

21:32

because they want to be liked

21:34

by everybody. But the result is

21:36

that they're loved by no one.

21:38

Because they're so afraid of being

21:40

rejected. It's true in many areas

21:42

of life. Okay, I'm moving on

21:44

to the... the meat of everything.

21:46

And this is, I think what

21:48

I love most about the book.

21:50

You said, giving too many fucks

21:52

is bad for your mental health,

21:54

and I could not agree more.

21:56

One of the things for me

21:58

in my life that I'm constantly

22:00

working on is simplicity. How can

22:02

I make things more simple, more

22:04

simple, especially in a world that

22:06

is shoving more? bigger, do all

22:08

these things down your throat all

22:10

the time. So I'm curious. What

22:12

have you personally learned to not

22:14

give a fuck about? That's question

22:16

number one. Like from doing this

22:18

work, from writing this, from having

22:20

millions of people read it, and

22:22

then also turning it into a

22:24

full-fledged book. What are some of

22:26

the highlights? Well, a lot of

22:28

it, I mean, the first and

22:30

most obvious one that comes to

22:32

mine is... a lot of the

22:34

criticism. I mean, there's a difference

22:36

between smart criticism, thoughtful criticism, and

22:38

then just, you know, Neanderthals, like,

22:40

banging a keyboard, calling you four-letter

22:42

names. And it's actually, it's very

22:44

hard to let go of that

22:46

at first. But interestingly, I would

22:48

also say that throughout, you know,

22:50

my writing, and you could probably

22:52

relate to this, like, building a

22:54

big platform online, being so visible,

22:56

you almost have to... Be a

22:58

little bit skeptical of anything that's

23:00

said about you. You can't because

23:02

if you listen too much to

23:04

the good stuff It starts going

23:07

to your head and you start

23:09

thinking like oh I Got it.

23:11

This this is the right stuff

23:13

and you can't let that happen

23:15

either and so I Try to

23:17

be very careful in How I

23:19

gauge how I gauge the reactions

23:21

to my work, you know, I

23:23

want to hear I want to

23:25

hear criticisms. I want to hear

23:27

support but I I wanted to

23:29

be of a certain kind of

23:31

like thoughtfulness and just for me

23:33

personally like getting away from the

23:35

business stuff I mean I've over

23:37

a lot I spent most of

23:39

my 20s pursuing things that sound

23:41

really cool and fun so I

23:43

traveled tons of countries went to

23:45

a bunch of big parties they

23:47

did a lot of girls started

23:49

some businesses started some businesses making

23:51

money money money and It was

23:53

all this really cool, fun stuff.

23:55

Basically all these goals that I

23:57

established when I was like 22,

23:59

23. It's like, this is what

24:01

I want to do. time I

24:03

was 2728 I had accomplished a

24:05

lot of them and the funny

24:07

thing was is I kind of

24:09

went into this identity crisis because

24:11

I suddenly realized that none of

24:13

those things really mattered that much

24:15

you know it's like okay that

24:17

was fun but none of that

24:19

really was fulfilling yeah none of

24:21

it meant anything like that was

24:23

the thing I kept coming back

24:25

to is it's like it didn't

24:27

really mean anything and so I

24:29

had this like year long period

24:31

where I was like all right

24:33

What do I do that's meaningful?

24:35

All this stuff going on in

24:37

my life, like, where am I

24:39

going to find that meaning? And

24:41

so this book is very much

24:43

a reflection of that process I

24:45

went through myself of letting go

24:47

of a lot of those very

24:49

sexy headline-grabbing life goals, you know,

24:51

that, I don't know, maybe, like,

24:53

sell a lot. on Facebook or

24:55

something, but just learning that that's

24:57

not actually what mattered in the

25:00

end, you know? I'm curious for

25:02

anyone who has either read the

25:04

article or by this time has

25:06

read the book, or maybe they

25:08

haven't, and they're saying to themselves,

25:10

I love this. You know, like,

25:12

I feel like I'm giving way

25:14

too many fucks away to things

25:16

that don't really matter. Do you

25:18

have any advice for people how

25:20

to start parsing through? Like, this

25:22

is the column of things that

25:24

I do give a fuck about.

25:26

And this is the column, there

25:28

should be much longer, right? Of

25:30

things that are like a no-go.

25:32

Yeah. So, usually the starting point,

25:34

and I know you had Simon

25:36

Senek on here, and he wrote

25:38

a book about this. It's the,

25:40

basically starting with why. that you're

25:42

pursuing, that you aspire to, start

25:44

by asking why. Just see what

25:46

the motivation behind that is. And

25:48

just right there, you'll find that

25:50

a lot of stuff is, if

25:52

you're being really, really honest with

25:54

yourself, a lot of stuff is

25:56

it's motivated by insecurity, it's motivated

25:58

by ego, it's motivated by, I

26:00

don't know, your friends went and

26:02

did it. Competition. Yeah. Yeah. And

26:04

that right there will show a

26:06

lot to you. And the book

26:08

dives much deeper into getting into

26:10

values and how we measure success

26:12

and failure for ourselves and how

26:14

these things are very arbitrary. But

26:16

that's usually the starting point. It's

26:18

just simply start asking why about

26:20

everything and start asking what if

26:22

I'm wrong? What if my assumption

26:24

is wrong? What if what if

26:26

making, I don't know, $100,000 a

26:28

year? What if? that actually doesn't

26:30

really matter, you know? Like what

26:32

would that mean for my life?

26:34

And these questions are very hard

26:36

and I think few people ask

26:38

them regularly. I want to congratulate

26:40

you because while I love the

26:42

title of the book and it's

26:44

really fun and the original blog

26:46

post is super fun and it's

26:48

hilarious, what I think you've done

26:50

such a fantastic job. It is

26:52

giving us some very deep things

26:55

to look at that many people

26:57

don't stop and take the time

26:59

to question or to answer for

27:01

themselves. And I love that you've

27:03

married some really important ideas with

27:05

so much humor and a reverence.

27:07

And I just want to congratulate

27:09

you on that. Thank you so

27:11

much for coming on. Thanks for

27:13

having me. You want

27:15

to help me make the Marie Borleo podcast

27:17

even better? Leave a review on the Apple

27:19

podcast app. Tell me what's helping you, what's

27:21

inspiring you, what you want to hear more

27:24

of, or what would put an extra bounce

27:26

in your step while you listen. I seriously

27:28

want to know. So go to Apple Podcast

27:30

right now and leave that review. Can't wait

27:33

to hear from you.