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and your host will explore

1:01

topics like mental toughness,

1:03

emotional resilience, purpose, and

1:06

evolving consciousness, while embracing

1:08

challenges and facing this

1:10

fast-changing world. Our guests on

1:12

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1:15

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1:17

from diverse fields, whether

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1:22

psychedelic research. Join us

1:24

today as we dare

1:26

to think bigger, live

1:28

bolder, and unlock the

1:30

common potential within everyone.

1:32

Here's your host, Mark

1:34

Devine. Oohia. Yeah, that's

1:36

good. Automata, automata. Bigged

1:39

into my psyche and

1:41

our whole community, you

1:43

know, they say it. Yeah. Oia. There's

1:45

a whole bunch of Anamana Pia

1:47

going on with that too, you

1:49

know, there's a real reason it's

1:51

Huyah as opposed to like, Hoorah,

1:54

erudite, the call is not, erudite,

1:56

right, it's Huyah, there's specific reasons

1:58

why. I actually have critiqued the

2:00

army's version is hoo-a. And hoo-a

2:02

is actually kind of diminishes you

2:05

as you say hoo-a. And the

2:07

marine version is ooh-ra, which is

2:09

also kind of a week because

2:11

you can't project the ooh. So

2:13

the seals are wise. They're warriors.

2:15

So it's more like if you

2:17

think about a karate kai. Who

2:20

comes from the belly? Yeah. And

2:22

then yaw is like an arrow.

2:24

Yeah. Yeah. You can pierce someone

2:26

with that. There's a bunch of

2:28

things happening with your mouth and

2:30

your breath too to achieve those

2:32

sounds that makes your call better

2:35

than the other two. Even the

2:37

yaw, because it forces your mouth

2:39

to open much more on that

2:41

extended syllable, that voiced vowel, yaw,

2:43

like so. Like all of that

2:45

is opening, expanding the body, and

2:47

forcing more breath and more voice

2:50

out of you as opposed to,

2:52

I mean if we go really

2:54

far, like I used erudite because

2:56

it's such a tight little sound,

2:58

but even theirs are a little

3:00

bit worse than the call that

3:02

you all do. Right. So whether

3:05

you landed on that instinctually or

3:07

how it developed, but it's good.

3:09

Not that you need my validation

3:11

on that. It's a good call.

3:13

Good job. Part of it was

3:15

just wanting to be different. Yeah,

3:18

right? You know, we're not going

3:20

to do what the Marines are

3:22

going to do or what the

3:24

Army does. Right, right. This deals

3:26

a relatively new organization and relatively

3:28

speaking, 63, they were formed. Wow.

3:30

A John F. Kennedy. And because

3:33

of such a small unit and

3:35

the guys were so creative that

3:37

they came up with a lot

3:39

of the, I'm not the cultural

3:41

stuff was new. Yeah. Right. So

3:43

they developed it. They needed to.

3:45

to develop a culture that was

3:48

distinct from the big Navy because

3:50

what they were doing was very,

3:52

very unique. Yeah. And so this

3:54

idea, but a lot of the

3:56

guys attracted were... were warriors like

3:58

they're martial artists and you know

4:00

yeah wrestlers. So they understood this

4:03

notion of power projection and the

4:05

and how energy gets stored in

4:07

the belly and so like that's

4:09

why the who comes yeah deep

4:11

from the belly from the power

4:13

source and then like you said

4:15

the yah. I've noticed with my

4:18

clientele that it does need to

4:20

be practiced. So first introduce it

4:22

I get a lot of like

4:24

hoo yah of course they you

4:26

know they trapped the energy up

4:28

here. So we have to then

4:30

get into breathing exercises, which then

4:33

opens up, you know, the airway,

4:35

gives them that, hoo, yah. So

4:37

we'll combine the sound with movement.

4:39

So like a squat, drop down,

4:41

inhale, stand up, hoo yah. And

4:43

so now we've got the movement.

4:45

So I think there's probably a

4:48

lot of overlap with some of

4:50

the exercises that you do. A

4:52

ton. Yeah. What's the, I'm sure

4:54

there's several, but. Can you tell

4:56

us what like the biggest mistake

4:58

that people make with communication? It's

5:01

related to what I hope is

5:03

the biggest aha moment people have

5:05

from this book and for you

5:07

specifically. The biggest hooja moment. Yeah.

5:09

Yeah. Exactly. And I hope for

5:11

you even that it is communication

5:13

is completely tied to every single

5:16

thing that you're. most interested in

5:18

in the work that you do.

5:20

And here's why. People have this

5:22

tremendous misconception of what communication actually

5:24

is. We have this idea that

5:26

if I think smart thoughts, I'm

5:28

gonna magically say smart thoughts. Almost

5:31

like I am a PDF. I'm

5:33

gonna share a piece of thought

5:35

leadership with you. And it completely

5:37

misses the point that communication is

5:39

a physical act. It's almost a

5:41

physical discipline. It's closer to a

5:43

sport. or a dance, or yes,

5:46

a martial art, or fighting discipline,

5:48

then it is just thinking. Because

5:50

we take air into our bodies

5:52

in order for that. to happen,

5:54

the diaphragm has to drop down,

5:56

the rib cage has to expand

5:58

to allow the lungs to have

6:01

room to fill with air, you

6:03

expel that air, it flows over

6:05

your vocal courts, and that's where

6:07

it picks up sound. And then

6:09

the sound gets amplified and altered,

6:11

coming out of your mouth with

6:13

this miraculous act of enunciation, we

6:16

all do, all day long and

6:18

never think about it. Yeah, as

6:20

you're saying this, Michael, I'm just

6:22

marveling over the complexity of. formulating

6:24

a sentence. Yes. Yes. It's crazy,

6:26

right? To think that the air

6:29

vibrating on the vocal cords and

6:31

then kind of contorted by our

6:33

tongue and our lips and our

6:35

face. Yes. And also the way

6:37

we're modulating the air coming out.

6:39

This is pretty extraordinary when you

6:41

really pay attention to it. Like

6:44

how much is involved? Yeah. I

6:46

call speaking an everyday miracle. Because

6:48

it is. You're right. The phenomenal

6:50

act of coordination that is unlocked

6:52

as we do this, it's incredible.

6:54

And the mixture of large muscle

6:56

groups and tiny small muscle groups,

6:59

the precision of annunciation with our

7:01

tongue and our lips and our

7:03

jaw and our soft palate all

7:05

have to do to form words,

7:07

it's incredible. But people don't know

7:09

that. So the biggest mistake is

7:11

just to take it for granted.

7:14

Well, the biggest mistake is to

7:16

remain only in the cognitive. So,

7:18

essentially, you perform badly, and then

7:20

what you do is you beat

7:22

yourself up and say, like, God,

7:24

I've got to study my stuff

7:26

better next time. I really have

7:29

to anticipate that question. How can

7:31

I not thought of that? Or,

7:33

oh, I've got to make sure

7:35

I say this thing. Remember that

7:37

thing. And we retreat in this

7:39

whole, like, cognitive, obsessive, obsessive place.

7:41

And if we performed badly, what

7:44

I see a lot. It's not

7:46

and we know that's not very

7:48

helpful not helpful at all. No,

7:50

and it's a physical activity It's

7:52

closer to exercising. So as opposed

7:54

to that whole silly shame loop

7:56

instead learn physical practices to communicate

7:59

much much better practice them in

8:01

like an athlete train and you'll

8:03

be better in three months six

8:05

months I agree with that I

8:07

want to really dig into a

8:09

lot of these exercises but just

8:12

kind of my own experience with

8:14

speeches you know I used to

8:16

use power points anything fought you

8:18

know everyone expected them right it's

8:20

a little bit of eye candy

8:22

yeah and at least I was

8:24

smart enough not to read the

8:27

power point slides to use it

8:29

as a guide. But at the

8:31

same time, it really constrained me.

8:33

Right? It really, I felt like

8:35

I had to like then kind

8:37

of contract myself into like this

8:39

actual square presentation and then, and

8:42

my voice kind of went through

8:44

the presentation to the crowd. And

8:46

so I disconnected me from the

8:48

audience. Yeah. So I stopped using

8:50

them. And I also started telling

8:52

stories. That's the other thing. It's

8:54

really hard to tell. effective storytelling

8:57

when you're using a prop like

8:59

a PowerPoint. Because again, you're engaging

9:01

with the concept as opposed to

9:03

the embodiment of the story. So

9:05

I stopped using PowerPoint and I

9:07

started to do exactly what you're

9:09

saying is like tell the story

9:12

with my body. Right. So like

9:14

if I say, oh yeah, I

9:16

was on day one of... Buds

9:18

trading and instructors said hit the

9:20

surf and I'm on stage I'm

9:22

like going I turn around and

9:24

I start running right so they

9:27

get this visceral image like I'm

9:29

running toward the surf and then

9:31

I stop and I look back

9:33

looking for my friend like where

9:35

are you Bill yeah and Bill's

9:37

running to ring the bell right

9:39

and this is all leading into

9:42

a story about like why did

9:44

he quit and why was I

9:46

having fun yeah at that very

9:48

same moment same stimulus different response

9:50

mentally and emotionally Anyways,

9:54

what I found

9:56

is my speech

9:58

is just... dramatically

10:01

improved, like not incrementally, but exponentially.

10:04

And that the audience, because the

10:06

movement and the dynamic nature of

10:08

the storytelling, the audience couldn't take

10:10

their eyes off of me. So

10:12

they became really engaged. I'm like,

10:14

okay, I think we're on to

10:16

something. So that's like my, one

10:18

of my most important takeaways was

10:20

exactly what you just started with,

10:22

this whole conversation is that. Speaking,

10:24

communicating is a body art. Yes.

10:26

Yes. It's a body art. That's

10:28

right. And you just related it

10:30

to like dance or Tai Chi

10:32

or you're gone. Yeah, that's cool.

10:34

And just like all those same

10:36

things, the better, the more economically,

10:38

efficiently, fluidly that you use the

10:40

physical communication instrument that is your

10:42

body, the better your communication. Right.

10:44

So it's a different way of

10:46

approaching this that helps people realize,

10:48

oh my gosh, I can train

10:50

in this, I can get better

10:52

with a little bit of dedicated

10:55

work, I can dramatically, to your

10:57

point, to your experience, I can

10:59

exponentially, to your experience, I can

11:01

exponentially improve. And I can get

11:03

out of, if I have some

11:05

sort of negative tape in my

11:07

head that I've been playing for

11:09

30 years, I talk too fast,

11:11

I go on too long, I

11:13

bore people, whatever this thing is,

11:15

you can get out of it.

11:17

Of course, that's the entire point

11:19

of this book is to give

11:21

people tangible things that they can

11:23

do differently. Your story is an

11:25

amazing one for a variety of

11:27

reasons. I want to push back

11:29

on a couple little concepts though.

11:31

Yes, PowerPoint is deadly boring. Yes,

11:33

but it doesn't have to be.

11:35

So when you say PowerPoint, probably

11:37

what that means is the slides

11:39

had some verbiage on there, some

11:41

words, some charts, that kind of

11:44

stuff. No one says though that

11:46

the PowerPoint could not be a

11:48

picture of you in a cold

11:50

bathath after 90 minutes. or a

11:52

image or a video, it is

11:54

another way to stimulate people's. Cences,

11:56

but we use it in dreadfully

11:58

boring ways all the time now

12:00

trust me I know this because

12:02

I coach and legal and finance

12:04

and pharma and trust me those

12:06

slides Yeah, for sure I agree

12:08

with that. So if I do

12:10

use slides They're just images. Yeah.

12:12

Yeah, exactly and that's an art

12:14

too to like really Make sure

12:16

that your imagery is going to

12:18

fit with the flow of your

12:20

speech And I'm a little bit

12:22

more free form, so I have,

12:24

that even can constrain me. Where

12:26

I'm like, I'm trying to advance

12:28

a slide to make sure that

12:30

the image, you know, is matching

12:32

the story at the appropriate place.

12:35

Sure. So I got a little

12:37

work to do in that category.

12:39

Well, but I'm also not suggesting

12:41

one needs PowerPoint. I'm not even

12:43

suggesting if you use a bunch

12:45

of images that it's better than

12:47

having. No PowerPoint and just telling

12:49

stories. I'm simply suggesting for those

12:51

of you who are listening out

12:53

there, they say like, I have

12:55

to use slides. Okay, fine. Use

12:57

better slides. Make it more sensory

12:59

for your audience. But the even

13:01

more interesting thing about the story

13:03

you told is that if people

13:05

are watching, clips of this, they're

13:07

just listening most likely. But if

13:09

you are watching, what you would

13:11

see is when you began to

13:13

move your body dynamically retelling this

13:15

story. Your voice changed dramatically. And

13:17

you can even feel this for

13:19

a second. If you pound in

13:21

your chest for a second, and

13:24

of course the audience can now

13:26

hear this, and I say, my

13:28

voice is my body. If I

13:30

plug my nose, the sound of

13:32

my voice changes. When I say,

13:34

my voice is my body. When

13:36

I plug my nose, the sound

13:38

of my voice changes. When I

13:40

say my voice is my body.

13:42

It wouldn't shock anyone that it

13:44

changes. Of course it would change,

13:46

but we forget that we are

13:48

musical instruments So this is why

13:50

I'm excited for this conversation because

13:52

this is entirely in line with

13:54

your work for sure and if

13:56

your audience that is so already

13:58

attuned to the idea that how

14:00

you build the physical habits of

14:02

your day can dramatically improve your

14:04

life it's the exact same thing

14:06

for communication and most folks don't

14:08

teach communication that way yeah I'd

14:10

love to come up with a

14:12

by the end of this a

14:15

simple protocol that someone can add

14:17

to the like their exercise routine

14:19

like I'm gonna go workout yeah

14:21

and as part of their workout

14:23

we're doing Three or four things

14:25

are going to improve my communications

14:27

now. You know, not just that,

14:29

but if people read the book

14:31

and they don't do that, they

14:33

have not taken the lessons of

14:35

the book. Because literally Chapter 19

14:37

is called making it stick, building

14:39

your communication regimen. Right. And it's

14:41

all about that, a little warm

14:43

up the beginning of the day,

14:45

and then a few exercises that

14:47

you practice to build a different

14:49

kind of muscle memory. Right. So

14:51

that over time, three months, you

14:53

have a different habit, a different

14:55

pattern. Three years of doing it,

14:57

you're a different communicator. That's interesting.

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most. So don't say um, what's

18:32

wrong with the word um. Nothing

18:35

is so wrong with um. The

18:37

title is a bit of a

18:39

trick. And as soon as readers

18:41

open the book in the preface,

18:44

the first thing they hear is

18:46

that the title is a trick

18:48

because it activates thoughts oppression. So

18:50

that's the don't think of a

18:53

pink elephant trick. So if I

18:55

say don't think of a picket,

18:57

right exactly. We get and give

18:59

ourselves this same thought suppression advice

19:02

all the time. Don't make distracting

19:04

hand gestures. Don't talk too fast.

19:06

Don't maintain too much eye contact.

19:08

It looks intense. Don't not make

19:11

eye contact. All these don'ts. They

19:13

just litter our focus while we're

19:15

speaking. And what it ultimately does

19:18

is it makes you more fixated

19:20

on yourself than the person you're

19:22

trying to reach. So the title

19:24

is supposed to resonate with people

19:27

because they've heard it a million

19:29

times, but as soon as they

19:31

open the book, every single page

19:33

is helping them figure out what

19:36

to do rather than what to

19:38

avoid. And filler is one of

19:40

those things. And we can unpack

19:42

it if you want to, filler

19:45

and umms and us and kind

19:47

of you know is that kind

19:49

of thing. Yeah. Let's unpack that

19:51

a little bit. So my perception

19:54

is that those, it's just unskilful

19:56

communication. and perhaps not a fully

19:58

formulated... Thought right maybe a partially

20:01

formulated thought then then there's a

20:03

pause and Maybe like waiting for

20:05

the brain to catch up to

20:07

fill in the blanks of what's

20:10

next Yeah, so Part of that

20:12

is really kind of the preparation

20:14

or you know I Guess I'm

20:16

I'm have to distinguish between like

20:19

a formal speech for it's just

20:21

like communicating the way we are

20:24

And maybe just stylistically, right? Some

20:26

people are more stream of conscious

20:28

and other people are going to

20:30

be more concise and precise with

20:33

their languaging. Yeah. I'm the last

20:35

person in the world to dissuade

20:37

anyone from preparation. But this is

20:39

distinct from preparation in the following

20:41

way. Yes, it's good that you

20:43

can be very precise with your

20:45

language when you do have the

20:47

chance to prepare, but a lot

20:49

of life is not prepared. It's

20:51

impromptu. So you're on the right

20:53

track with much of what you're

20:56

saying. And for this one, let

20:58

me just teach the exercise first,

21:00

or because it's the best way

21:02

to unpack it. I actually did

21:04

a spot on Good Morning America

21:06

recently, when I had the host

21:08

walk on a balance beam, and

21:10

that's the most fully realized version

21:12

of this exercise, but you can

21:14

do it just with your fingers.

21:16

And the exercise in the chapter

21:18

on what I call linguistic precision,

21:21

which is essentially, are you choosing

21:23

words, and letting words tumble out.

21:25

I teach people to do an

21:27

exercise called finger walking, and I'm

21:29

doing it now, of course, if

21:31

you're looking at this clip, but

21:33

if you're just listening, what I'm

21:35

doing is walking my fingers forward

21:37

in space. You can do it

21:39

on a desk or a table

21:41

or the top of your leg.

21:43

The goal is to force yourself

21:46

to choose words. Step your fingers

21:48

as specifically, as deliberately, as precisely

21:50

as needed. to choose

21:52

every single word that comes out

21:54

of your mouth. Now as you

21:56

do this, this is the antidote

21:58

to thoughts of pressure. It is

22:00

the antidote to don't say um

22:02

because what it's forcing you to

22:05

do is use embodied cognition that's

22:07

learning with your body embodied cognition

22:09

to actually choose language as opposed

22:11

to just letting language tumble out

22:13

of your mouth. So I like

22:15

to say that filler language is

22:17

a symptom, not a problem. to

22:19

some of what you just said,

22:21

it's a symptom of not really

22:23

taking the time to consider what

22:25

it is you want to say

22:28

and being in charge of the

22:30

words that you're creating to try

22:32

to impact others in life. Now,

22:34

I'm not the um police. I'm

22:36

not saying you can never say

22:38

um or kind of or you

22:40

know. More interestingly for the audience,

22:42

focus on the ratio of alms.

22:44

And what I mean by that

22:46

is this. If you say um

22:48

every 20 seconds when you're talking

22:50

to a friend, Figure out some

22:53

next steps in their life and

22:55

you say, um, every 20 seconds,

22:57

fine. To your point earlier about

22:59

vulnerability and humanity, sure, that's how

23:01

you speak as you're navigating this

23:03

incredible act of decision tree that

23:05

is choosing one of the 15,000

23:07

words in your vocabulary. But here's

23:09

a crucial thing. If in an

23:11

interview or a presentation, all of

23:13

a sudden you say, um, every

23:16

three seconds. Well, that's not organic,

23:18

that's not EU, that's a habit

23:20

you're shifting into in which all

23:22

of a sudden you're more self-focused,

23:24

not nearly as precise and not

23:26

as mindful of the audience, and

23:28

then your filler rate skyrockets. And

23:30

those filler sounds are worth paying

23:32

attention to. What are some of

23:34

the most other most common filler

23:36

sounds? Sure. Those are the big

23:38

ones. Sure. It bounces around the

23:41

world too, by the way. So

23:43

in Ireland it's N. In Japan,

23:45

it's oh, yeah, exactly. And in

23:47

France, it's, because it really could

23:49

be any word, actually, if it

23:51

satisfies these two criteria. One, it's

23:53

not grammatically necessary. And two, you're

23:55

not aware you're doing it. So

23:57

the hilarious example from the chapter

23:59

is that one time coached a

24:01

guy in the financial world and

24:04

he said the word Vicerally, practically

24:06

every other sentence. Really? Yeah. Vicerally.

24:08

And he had no idea he

24:10

was doing it. It didn't fit

24:12

in the sentence whatsoever at all.

24:14

He was enamored with it. Yes,

24:16

yes, he was enamored with it

24:18

and it just became a crutch

24:20

and a bit of filler that

24:22

he would just throw in all

24:24

the time into his sentence. Interesting.

24:26

Yeah. There's so many

24:29

vectors we take this, but I'm

24:31

just gonna just throw some stuff

24:33

out because I you know Communication

24:35

is so multifaceted, but what is

24:37

what about vocal Variety yeah, like

24:39

you know we did this earlier

24:41

and playing around with the nunciation

24:43

like there's yeah you take one

24:45

word and you can communicate it

24:47

with a lot of different variety

24:49

a lot of different tonalities. Yep.

24:51

And it might come off and

24:53

actually have a different meaning or

24:55

And even like with the tonality

24:57

of how you end the word,

24:59

you know, like an up, it's

25:01

going to be more of a

25:03

question, if it's a down, it's

25:05

going to statement. So what, what,

25:07

how do we really get a

25:09

hold of variety in tonality? Yeah.

25:11

Let's look at this quite rigorously.

25:13

So you said enunciation, enunciation, enunciation,

25:15

how you shape sound into words.

25:17

Okay. But vocal variety has to

25:19

do with a musicality of the

25:21

musicality of the sound. Before it

25:23

even gets enunciated. Interesting. It does

25:25

change a little bit because if

25:27

you open your mouth more for

25:29

enunciation, it affects how quickly you

25:31

can speak and things like that.

25:33

But for the purposes of most

25:35

folks' improvement, it's better to think

25:37

of the two things distinctly. Inunciation,

25:39

vocal variety. Vocal variety, humans use

25:41

it, and we've been using it

25:43

as long as we've been human.

25:45

So I didn't invent that at

25:47

all. I invented though a naming

25:49

system to help people remember it.

25:51

And this is useful to people.

25:53

Pace, pitch, pause, power. Placement pace

25:55

pitch pause power placement. Yeah, so

25:57

I've made it through peas and

25:59

it's a liturgy of exactly five

26:01

peas So pace is speed that's

26:03

fast and slow pitch is high

26:05

and low high low Pause is

26:07

just a musical rest silence Power

26:09

is volume. I'll move back from

26:11

the microphone for loud and soft

26:13

and placement means where the sound

26:16

is placed in your body, where

26:18

it amplifies the most in your

26:20

body. Interesting. Yeah, now it was

26:22

fascinating. If we go back to

26:24

your story about PowerPoint, and we

26:26

listen to the first part when

26:28

you're talking about what the delivery

26:30

was like, when you were using

26:32

slides, your voice began to speak

26:34

more about like this dynamic right

26:36

here with almost no variation whatsoever.

26:38

And then as soon as you

26:40

talked about, and then I ran

26:42

across the thing, and the person

26:44

shouted at me and they said,

26:46

hey. All of a sudden your

26:48

voice took on all this inflection

26:50

and musicality. We do this quite

26:52

naturally. When people get stressed, when

26:54

they feel under pressure, self-focused, what

26:56

they tend to do is contract.

26:58

Because if you think of those

27:00

three threat responses of fight, flight,

27:02

or freeze, you can't fight anyone

27:04

when giving a presentation. You can't

27:06

flee the room. So what you

27:08

do, you freeze a little bit.

27:10

And what that means is you

27:12

contract. You breathe less. You open

27:14

your mouth less. and all the

27:16

variation in your voice goes away

27:18

and all of a sudden you're

27:20

talking like that. So for most

27:22

people the journey is simply using

27:24

more variation on all of those

27:26

five P's and the fastest way

27:28

to unlock that again is through

27:30

a physical approach. Give us some

27:32

examples like choose a sentence yeah

27:34

and vary up the five P's.

27:36

Yeah you got it. Hey everybody

27:38

this is really easy it's super

27:40

easy. You know why because you

27:42

already know how to do it.

27:44

Don't even have to think about

27:46

it. Do this thought experiment. Some

27:48

kid has grabbed your cell phone.

27:50

Okay, they're four, let's say. And

27:52

you want your cell phone back.

27:54

And all you have to trade

27:56

is a wiffle ball or a

27:58

stack of posted notes. I want

28:00

you to imagine yourself saying this

28:02

sentence, and I'll do it in

28:04

a monotone, so I'm not cheating. Listen.

28:06

Do you want this thing or this

28:08

thing? All right? Now, I want you

28:11

to imagine yourself comparing these two

28:13

objects, the cell phone, and the wiffle

28:15

ball, and how you would use your

28:17

voice to make the wiffle ball, see

28:20

much more attractive to the kid, to

28:22

try to steal that phone back from

28:24

them. And I promise you, you would

28:26

change all of these five peas. Pace,

28:28

pitch, pause, power, placement, all of

28:30

them, automatically. And you would never

28:32

think, I'm focused on improving my

28:34

communication because Michael Chad Hetner's book,

28:37

don't say, I'm, told me I

28:39

should do so, you would just

28:41

change them. That reminds me, and

28:43

that's what I was just checking,

28:45

I had written down a statement

28:48

about a year ago, that it's

28:50

just, it was profoundly interesting

28:52

to me that relates to this

28:54

topic. Yeah. It shows you

28:56

how the emphasis on any

28:58

particular word in a sentence

29:00

will change the meaning of

29:02

the sentence. And the sentence,

29:04

every single word, if you

29:07

put an emphasis, it changes

29:09

the meaning. What's the sentence? I

29:11

never said she stole my money.

29:13

Exactly. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Like I

29:16

never said she stole my money.

29:18

Somebody else did. Yeah. I never

29:20

said she stole my money. That's

29:23

right. I never said she stole my money.

29:25

She borrowed it. I never said she

29:27

stole my money. That's right. She stole

29:29

my money, not yours. I never said

29:31

she stole my money. That's right. She

29:33

stole my car. She stole something else.

29:35

Isn't it? That's just genius. Yeah, for

29:37

sure. Imagine there's a litigator, right? You

29:39

are the witness on the stand. And

29:41

the jury is going to think dramatically

29:43

different things about what actually

29:45

happened based on your vocal

29:47

variety in that situation. You're

29:50

right. That's fascinating. Now, that's because we use

29:52

vocal variety to convey meaning. So this is

29:54

not an optional thing. If you're listening to

29:56

this, this is not about you having more

29:58

drama or more fl- No, this is

30:00

core. It's crucial in fact. We

30:03

use vocal variety to convey meaning,

30:05

to convey emotion, to surprise our

30:07

audience. So they actually listen to

30:09

what we're saying, and also to

30:11

orient our audience. So this is

30:13

not an optional thing. In order

30:16

to be effective in your life

30:18

as a communicator, you have to

30:20

do this. And amazingly, you do

30:22

it already when you're not thinking

30:24

about it so much. Interesting kind

30:26

of, I guess, gap, communication gap.

30:28

And this one, you know, was

30:31

in Kahneman's book, Thinking Fast and

30:33

Slow, and he talks about cognitive

30:35

bias, right? And so, you know,

30:37

like if you're, if you're in

30:39

a Native American, let's just say,

30:41

and I said, yeah, I'm, I

30:43

pulled up to the bank, right,

30:46

you might be thinking, well, Mark

30:48

was in a canoe and he

30:50

pulled up to the river bank.

30:52

Right. Whereas I'm thinking, and I

30:54

drove my car and stopped in

30:56

front of the front of the,

30:59

You know, banking institution. Yeah. So

31:01

how do we ensure that context

31:03

is conveyed or communicated effectively so

31:05

that we don't have these major

31:07

gaps? You can divide communication into

31:09

two buckets, spoken communication anyway. Two

31:11

buckets. One is content. The other

31:14

is delivery. Content is what you

31:16

say. Delivery is everything else. How

31:18

you say it. Vocal variety. Inunciation.

31:20

I contact. And the context, I

31:22

guess, would fit into that, because...

31:24

A little bit, but context there

31:27

is... I never said she stole

31:29

my money. The context is communicated

31:31

by the emphasis on a particular

31:33

word. Sort of. Well, it's a

31:35

completely different meaning. Yes, agreed. But

31:37

the example you gave was actually

31:39

about the meaning of the word

31:42

bank to one audience versus to

31:44

another. So their frame of reference

31:46

is car. The others is canoe.

31:48

That actually is a reflection on

31:50

the content meaning the word choice.

31:52

I see yeah But yes, you're

31:54

right that delivery does convey a

31:57

whole bunch of context and energy

31:59

and again tone, emotion, surprise, etc.

32:01

So what I would suggest is

32:03

that if you're trying to make

32:05

sure that you are understood all

32:07

the behaviors of delivery are crucial

32:10

to understanding what your audience is

32:12

perceiving and what you're trying to

32:14

convey. I contact, we use this

32:16

not to have good presence and

32:18

to look into each other as

32:20

souls, no. We have eye contact

32:22

to see, is my message resonating?

32:25

Yeah, that's right. And that's different

32:27

for different people. I mean, neurodivergent

32:29

audiences have slightly different relationships, different

32:31

cultures use eye contact differently, but

32:33

in general, it's one tool that

32:35

we leverage to see, did they

32:37

understand that, you know, danger is

32:40

coming or not? Yeah. So yes

32:42

to all those behavioral tools, and

32:44

that will give you a lot

32:46

of information about what your audience

32:48

actually thinks or feels. Right. One

32:50

of the practices we use in

32:53

unreal mind is called, we just

32:55

call it active listening. And it's

32:57

kind of a misnomer because really

32:59

what we're saying is mindfulness. It's

33:01

like be present enough to clear

33:03

your mind of formulating a response

33:05

of judging of, you know, classifying

33:08

and trying to relate the information

33:10

that's coming out of the other

33:12

person's mouth to something that you

33:14

know, so that you can come

33:16

back with something. you know, pithy

33:18

or whatever, which is the normal

33:21

mode of communication for most people,

33:23

right? They're not listening. They're actually

33:25

in their head, you know, they're

33:27

probably collecting 5% of the information

33:29

and 95% of what is going

33:31

on is their formulation of some

33:33

sort of positional response. So we

33:36

try to get our clientele to

33:38

like just stop doing that. And

33:40

that's a pretty incredible hard and

33:42

an incredible transformation when you can

33:44

just... actually listen fully present and

33:46

receive. Yeah. And the power that

33:48

would have on the communication or

33:51

the understanding, right, is pretty extraordinary.

33:53

I'm curious is, does that, do

33:55

you have any exercises that are

33:57

similar to that or that you

33:59

can kind of expand upon? Yeah,

34:01

I will help you with that

34:04

coaching that you give to your

34:06

clients right now. Because the exercise

34:08

in that chapter is called silent

34:10

storytelling. It's amazing for what you're

34:12

talking about. The way it works

34:14

is this, you have to tell

34:16

a story, but you don't get

34:19

to use sound. So essentially you're

34:21

mauving the words and you're doing

34:23

it as much as you're doing

34:25

it as much as you can

34:27

so that people could kind of

34:29

read your lips. But you're also

34:32

allowing your face to get in

34:34

on the action and express how

34:36

you feel about it. And also

34:38

you use your hands. It's kind

34:40

of like pantomime. counting off syllables

34:42

on your arm or that kind

34:44

of thing. No, you're just communicating

34:47

as a heightened version of yourself

34:49

from a physical communication perspective. Think

34:51

of it like being muted on

34:53

TV where all the viewers should

34:55

be able to read your lips.

34:57

This is an incredibly powerful exercise

34:59

for both doer and receiver. Are

35:02

you going to say the receiver

35:04

is going to get the main

35:06

benefits? Probably. No. No. Both. Both.

35:08

Because the receiver, this is an

35:10

incredible exercise. to teach them how

35:12

to do the very thing you're

35:15

talking about. Pay attention. Yes, and

35:17

pay attention to every darn moment.

35:19

As opposed to the past, what

35:21

was said so I can think

35:23

of a great answer or the

35:25

future, what am I about to

35:27

say to dazzle my audience or

35:30

win the debate? No. What is

35:32

the word they're forming right now?

35:34

And I have to use all

35:36

my powers of perception to figure

35:38

that out. So it brings the

35:40

listener into the present moment. But

35:42

for the speaker, it unlocks all

35:45

these incredible things. One. eye contact

35:47

because they have to look at

35:49

their audience to see are they

35:51

mostly getting what I'm saying or

35:53

not to gestural ease and freedom

35:55

because all of a sudden their

35:58

hands have a mission that is

36:00

no longer don't make distracting hand

36:02

gestures. It's an active mission. Number

36:04

three, when they put sound back

36:06

into the equation, their voice, like you

36:08

did when telling a story about

36:11

blowing off your PowerPoint slides and

36:13

just telling a story instead,

36:15

their voice leaps out of their

36:17

body because they're using their body

36:19

in a much more dynamic way.

36:22

But it's a very powerful exercise

36:24

for both listener or speaker and

36:26

receiver. Michael let's

36:28

talk about how let's say someone

36:31

is Disembodied I don't mean that in

36:33

a spiritual sense or you know astral

36:35

body says I mean like they they're

36:37

just head up. Yes, and you know

36:39

a lot of people are that way right

36:41

because of our health issues and

36:44

People are not really connected to

36:46

their body. How do we

36:48

from a communication perspective? What

36:50

are some of the tools to get

36:52

people back into their body to be

36:54

more expressive and to be? comfortable,

36:57

not feel awkward about talking with

36:59

their hands and using their

37:01

body more communication. Because it is

37:03

so powerful. The first thing I would

37:05

suggest is that people should try to get

37:08

an accurate perception to reality

37:10

lens, because they're probably more

37:13

or less disembodied in different

37:15

situations. Even here, speakers in high-stick

37:17

situations describe this as, was like

37:20

an out-of-body experience. So when people

37:22

tend to be more stressed, more

37:24

nervous, they tend to be more

37:26

disembodied, and sometimes as they become

37:29

more relaxed, more focused on the

37:31

other person, they become more embodied. But

37:33

you're right, lots of folks are walking

37:35

around from just the neck up. So

37:37

every exercise in the book... tries to

37:39

use embodied cognition to unlock better behavior.

37:41

Silent storytelling is a perfect example, the

37:43

one I just explained. Another great one

37:45

is in the posture chapter. People tend

37:47

to go about posture in all the

37:49

wrong ways. I'm sure you know a

37:51

lot about this and from the listing

37:53

I've done to your pot, which I

37:55

love, you touching this sometimes, which is

37:57

posture tends to be done from a

37:59

very. a standpoint of

38:01

recruiting all the wrong muscles, like

38:03

stand up straight and everyone tightens

38:06

their lumbar like crazy and makes

38:08

their cervical spine really tight, trying

38:10

to achieve height, but actually we're,

38:12

we are balanced beings when we

38:14

use our body well. We're keeping

38:16

our head aloft from ease and

38:18

grace and balance and release, not

38:20

from muscular effort. So in the

38:22

chapter, what you do is you

38:25

cut out a paper crown and

38:27

you. Kind of like those paper

38:29

crowns. Well, I'm dating myself now,

38:31

but I used to go to

38:33

Burger King as a little kid.

38:35

They have these paper crowns, okay?

38:37

Yeah, same kind of idea. And

38:39

you put this crown on and

38:41

then your job is to walk

38:44

around the room visualizing that you

38:46

are a monarch of some nation.

38:48

And this tends to instantly inform

38:50

people's bodies and they begin to

38:52

use their body differently. Taller, more

38:54

released. And what happens as soon

38:56

as they do that, as their

38:58

head is taller, there's more room.

39:00

for their diaphragm to actually drop

39:03

down. So they begin to breathe.

39:05

And the breath is a thing

39:07

that begins to unlock a much

39:09

more embodied existence. Because when we're

39:11

living from our neck up, we're

39:13

not breathing. That's just one example.

39:15

Right. What about preparation, like warm-up

39:17

exercises? You know, from, if I'm

39:19

actually gonna give a presentation. Virtually

39:22

or on stage. Yeah. How do

39:24

I effectively prepare for that? The

39:26

short answer is you should do

39:28

a whole physical and vocal warm-up,

39:30

just like you're a communication athlete,

39:32

because you are. And the warm-up

39:34

has to involve three big things.

39:36

One, you're trunk. You're not warming

39:38

up your ankles. That's not the

39:41

primary muscle of communication. So that

39:43

means sun salutations and yoga moves

39:45

and big full-body torso stretching. Number

39:47

two, the breath. And one of

39:49

the easiest ways to do this

39:51

is some yawning exercises. So yawn

39:53

a whole bunch, that big yawns

39:55

sighs out, meaning a sigh like

39:57

you're sighing on a lazy. Sunday

40:00

morning, blow some air through your

40:02

lips, doing some lip trills. So you

40:04

have to get the breath going, and

40:06

then three, you have to warm up

40:08

your enunciators. And you can also just

40:10

think of the tongue twisters you've probably

40:12

learned from, you know, when you're a

40:15

little kid. Sally saw seashell by the

40:17

seashore. Exactly, right. And you can do

40:19

a higher level of difficulty ones if

40:21

you want to. Now that's tough enough

40:23

for me. Yeah. Yeah. I'll give you

40:25

a one that is likely to lead

40:28

to profanity to profanity if you're not.

40:30

This is a family-friendly podcast, folks. Here

40:32

we go. I am a

40:34

pleasant mother pheasant plucker. I pluck

40:37

pleasant mother pheasants. I'm the

40:39

best pleasant mother pheasant plucker.

40:41

Whoever plucked a pleasant mother pheasant.

40:43

You get the idea. Okay. I'm

40:45

not even going to try that.

40:48

But the point here is that

40:50

your body, if you, I mean,

40:52

every single Q&A, you and I

40:54

have been doing in this

40:56

conversation, every single thing. You would

40:58

never go do a extreme sport

41:01

or something and not get your

41:03

body limber and ready to go.

41:05

Why would you think that you

41:07

could give a big speech or

41:10

a presentation and not have all

41:12

the muscles of your enunciators

41:15

firing dynamically? Right. So warm

41:17

up. Is there any reason to

41:19

warm down or recover? You know,

41:22

like musicians or singers?

41:24

Yeah. You need to really protect

41:26

their voice. Yes. And so they

41:28

take voice breaks and they rest it

41:30

and they, you know, they do things.

41:32

What about just the average person who

41:34

talks a lot? Yeah. Unless you're trying

41:36

to do a vocal health regimen, most

41:38

people don't have to think about

41:41

this that much. But yeah, if

41:43

you're talking all the time, absolutely.

41:45

And that can be quite simple.

41:47

It's a series of gentle humming

41:49

exercises. So you're just literally allowing

41:51

your vocal courts to flutter with

41:53

a lot of ease and recovery.

41:55

Most people don't need this though,

41:57

because They're not in the... I think you

41:59

love... the average performance. You know,

42:02

executive who's just so over-committed

42:04

and always giving speeches, always

42:06

talking, always on. Yeah. And then they

42:08

find themselves, you know, like, burn out and

42:11

they lose their voice. Yes. This actually happened

42:13

to me, I think, in December. And it

42:15

was definitely associated with some sort

42:17

of low-grade kind of bug or

42:20

illness that I had, but I kind of

42:22

started to lose my voice. Yeah. Remember that

42:24

Catherine? I was like, I could barely talk.

42:26

And I thought maybe metaphysically

42:28

it was just because I've

42:31

been talking too much, right? And I

42:33

just needed to talk less. It's not

42:35

because you were talking too much. No,

42:37

I think so. No, I can prove

42:39

it to you, okay. Prove it. Yeah, here

42:41

you go. Here's a proof point. If

42:43

you've ever been with a newborn

42:45

who cries all night long, and the

42:47

next morning could still keep crying,

42:50

the next night too, and could

42:52

keep crying for three days. No,

42:54

they're not. Because when we're a

42:56

newborn, we have literally no tension.

42:59

We're an open vessel. Breath comes

43:01

into our body seamlessly. Our throat

43:03

and vocal cords and

43:05

entire communication. Architecture

43:08

and equipment is completely relaxed. So

43:10

it's almost like blowing a horn.

43:12

You could blow the horn forever

43:14

as long as there was sufficient

43:16

breath to go through it. As

43:18

we grow. We accumulate a whole

43:20

bunch of tension and habits and

43:22

holding a bunch of stuff you

43:24

know from all the work you

43:26

do on physical and also spiritual

43:28

and mental health and things like

43:30

that. So those layers tend to have

43:32

physical manifestations and we use our

43:34

body in very different ways. So

43:37

long way of saying if you lose your

43:39

voice it has everything to do with how

43:41

you're producing that sound and much less

43:43

to do with how much of the day you're

43:45

talking. I mean, yes, it's true. If you

43:47

say... 30,000 words in a day, yeah, it

43:49

is more wear and tear, but if you're doing

43:52

it in a healthful manner, you really should be

43:54

able to at the end of the day, still

43:56

wake up the following day, be able to

43:58

speak more. That's an aspiration. goal, to

44:00

be frank, because a lot of

44:02

people do have, they've acquired tendencies

44:04

and habits that don't serve them.

44:06

And this is not about judgment,

44:09

folks. Industrialized society

44:11

conspires to break, you know, use,

44:13

good use when it comes to speaking or

44:15

how we even use our bodies. Back to

44:17

your question, though. For most people,

44:20

if that's the case, the warm up

44:22

is the very crucial part. The warm

44:24

down is a little bit less essential.

44:26

And for people who don't have a

44:29

experience of speaking so much that they

44:31

lose their voices, I'll give you

44:33

a different warm-down activity. After

44:36

you've done the big event

44:38

or the big communication

44:40

situation, reflect on it

44:42

and reflect on one key place. If

44:44

I messed up, would it have been the

44:47

end of the world to just acknowledge

44:49

it? Without apology, don't apologize

44:52

about it. Just acknowledge

44:54

it. and continue. That didn't come out

44:56

right? But hey, yeah, moving on.

44:58

That's right, that's right. And in

45:00

the chapter on recovering from mistakes,

45:02

I actually have these cards on

45:04

the pages of the book that

45:06

can be cut out that say things just

45:09

like that. Oh yeah. That's not what I

45:11

meant. What I meant was or, oh, I

45:13

can't believe I forgot. I also want to

45:15

say, or let me go back for

45:17

a moment. Let me clarify that. Because

45:19

so often we think we have to

45:21

be flawless. given the messages our

45:24

society sends about being flawless, we

45:26

all have this idea that we

45:28

can never have a gap or

45:30

a foible. And very often, not

45:32

only can you, but what determines

45:34

if you've reached your audience

45:36

is not did you make a

45:38

mistake, but how you handled that

45:40

mistake when you made it, because

45:43

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45:45

to happen. I'm just in my

45:47

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45:49

know. As the words were coming out

45:51

of my mouth, I realized how horribly

45:53

wrong it was going. And what I

45:55

couldn't stop it because it was already

45:57

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46:00

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46:02

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46:04

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available in the episode

49:05

description box. We can

49:07

learn a lot from exemplars,

49:09

right? And when we originally

49:12

scheduled this, we were going to

49:14

do it on or on Martin Luther

49:16

King's, you know, day. And he's such

49:18

an extraordinary orator

49:21

communicator. What are some

49:23

of the really key things that

49:25

we can learn from how he,

49:28

the strategies he used and how

49:30

he communicated? No one was better

49:32

at weaving poetic devices into what

49:34

he was doing, imagery, metaphor, story,

49:37

allegory, yeah. Even just the poetry

49:39

of language. So he would do

49:41

this incredible thing that Herman Melville

49:43

does in Moby Dick, where you

49:46

have, call me Ishmael, and then

49:48

three sentences later, you've got an

49:50

87-word long sentence. King was brilliant

49:52

at using incredibly simple

49:55

phrases and then immediately

49:57

after some huge aspirational

49:59

complex thought. So the audience feels

50:01

smart and inspired at

50:03

the same time. So their hearts and

50:05

minds are both activated

50:08

in every darn speech. He

50:10

was incredible about making the

50:12

content about the people who

50:15

are listening as opposed to himself.

50:17

I mean, you could go on and

50:19

on and on and on. And then

50:21

on the delivery side, talk

50:23

about an exemplar. If everyone

50:26

in the world can

50:28

instantly... do some impersonation of how

50:30

someone speaks, you know, in the

50:32

whole like flatteries, or what is

50:34

it, impression is the sincerest form

50:37

of flattery or whatever the phrase

50:39

is, everybody could give a, you

50:41

know, medium bad to good impersonation

50:43

of Martin Luther King because he

50:45

was that skilled. And if you

50:48

think about those five p's of

50:50

vocal variety, oh my gosh, watch

50:52

the I have a dream speech

50:54

and see for yourself. Just watch,

50:56

pace, pitch, pause, power. placement and

50:58

watch how he varies all of them.

51:01

I have a dream. I mean, the

51:03

pitch is the obvious one we all

51:05

hear right away. Up in the down.

51:07

Because we don't use that much pitch

51:09

in our day today. That's the first

51:11

one. But he plays with power. I

51:14

have a dream. The volume of his

51:16

voice varies dramatically. But even the

51:18

placement. That's the one that's

51:20

harder for people to recognize.

51:22

But if you take, again,

51:24

that you are a musical

51:26

instrument. The sound amplifies in

51:28

your body in different places,

51:31

which is why when you have a

51:33

cold your voice sounds different because

51:35

the sinuses are so clogged Sound

51:37

can't amplify in the same way That's

51:39

why your voice sounds different. Okay, he

51:41

would Allow the placement of his voice

51:43

to entirely shift from the back of his

51:46

throat all the way up to the front

51:48

of his face like it would bounce around

51:50

all the time and the point is that

51:52

when you use more vocal variety Well hang

51:54

on caveat it can go too far we could

51:57

talk about that but for most people it never

51:59

goes far enough. When you use more

52:01

vocal variety and we've studied

52:03

this, audiences evaluate you as more

52:05

authentic. He was a master.

52:07

He's as good as it gets. Let's

52:10

talk about the pause a little

52:13

bit more because I think people are

52:15

uncomfortable in

52:17

silence or in stillness. They feel like

52:19

they've got to fill that space. But then

52:21

they're taking opportunity

52:23

away from the listener to

52:26

like fill it themselves with

52:29

curiosity, maybe, or like wonderment or

52:31

like hmm. And

52:33

so I think this goes

52:35

like in a broader context of

52:37

storytelling. Our

52:39

culture has gotten

52:41

a little bit watered down

52:43

to where like when if you

52:45

watch a typical Netflix show that

52:47

there's no mystery left anymore. There's

52:49

no like boy, the audience is really

52:52

smart and configure this out for itself. So we're

52:54

not going to tell them everything. You

52:57

know what I mean? And I just turned shows

52:59

off because I'm like, oh, where's the fun

53:01

in this? The same thing

53:03

with personal communication, right? And

53:06

that's why the pause is so important. What

53:09

you're saying, there's a really discouraging detail

53:12

in what you're saying. Let's talk about

53:14

Netflix for a second. A

53:16

friend of mine who was a

53:18

producer at ABC, I'll give a shout

53:20

out because why not? Pass credit along,

53:22

right? Eric Ortega. Oh yeah. That's right.

53:24

Good job, Eric. He taught me about

53:26

what's called second screen. Do you know

53:28

what second screen is? I have not

53:30

heard that. A lot of Netflix shows

53:33

are created for what's called second screen

53:35

viewing because they know

53:37

the audience is already scrolling

53:39

and the TV's just on in the background. So

53:42

the shows are dumbed down enough that

53:44

you can mostly still follow even while

53:46

you're also, oh, look at how that person

53:48

posted. Oh, that's good. Oh, wow, I

53:50

hate that person. Explains a lot.

53:52

Holy cow. Right? Exactly. Which I

53:54

think is terrifying for us as

53:56

communication beings. So part of what

53:58

you're picking up on might be intentional

54:01

because they're actually creating content

54:03

that people can consume on

54:05

multitasking. Oh, wow. Yeah, it's

54:07

its own. That makes total

54:09

sense. Yeah, I know. But

54:11

to your bigger question about

54:13

pausing, yes, pausing is essential.

54:15

It's crucial. It's one of the five

54:17

p's, again, a vocal variety, pace,

54:19

pitch, pause, power and placement. And

54:22

if you want to unlock this

54:24

for yourself, I'll give you a really

54:26

fun, intuitive way to think about

54:28

why humans pause. And it's so

54:30

obvious when I say it. One, you

54:32

need to think of what word to

54:34

say next. Or two, you want to

54:36

give your audience time to digest

54:39

what you've said. That's it. And

54:41

part of that is when you

54:43

give them time to digest, hopefully,

54:46

they have a moment potentially

54:48

to contribute to the

54:50

conversation too. Most people

54:52

know this though. They know

54:54

that pausing is important. The

54:56

bigger question. And this is actually, by

54:58

the way, the first skilled building chapter in

55:01

the book, because it is such an important

55:03

thing. The bigger question is how do you

55:05

pause? If you're not comfortable with

55:07

silence, how do you learn how to do

55:09

that behavior? And so in the book,

55:11

you actually rip out a page and

55:13

tear it into six strips. The drill

55:16

is better done with Lego or Duplow

55:18

blocks, actually, though, because they're more three-dimensional

55:20

and fun to use. But the idea

55:22

is that you practice sharing one idea

55:24

at a time, not three or 15

55:26

or 25, one. You can also think

55:28

of it like a sentence. You pick

55:30

up the strip of paper or the

55:32

Lego block. You say your first idea

55:34

or sentence. And at the end of

55:36

the idea, kind of like where the

55:39

period might go at the end of

55:41

the sentence, you put the object

55:43

down. Remain silent. Don't speak.

55:45

Pick up the second block or strip

55:47

of paper say the second idea at the

55:49

end of that idea again in silence kind

55:52

of like where the period might go at

55:54

the end of the sentence Put the

55:56

object down if it's the Lego blocks

55:58

you click it in place And you

56:00

keep doing this thought after

56:02

thought after thought and what happens is

56:04

this Everyday miracle occurs

56:06

for people the first time they

56:09

do the exercise which is in

56:11

that pause They can

56:13

finally do the thing that they

56:15

know they should be doing which

56:17

is breathe and think And so

56:19

either they recognize I'm

56:22

done. I I said all

56:24

I needed to in three sentences not 30

56:27

Or if they're not

56:29

done They can actually think

56:31

of a smarter next thing to say

56:33

and you do this enough what happens

56:35

is you build comfort With silence and

56:37

you build it in the physical

56:39

way So you just literally

56:41

dovetailed or double -clicked on one

56:44

of the Navy SEALs

56:46

famous training acronyms or

56:48

techniques called PBTA

56:51

pause breathe think

56:55

and then act Yeah, and

56:58

so that effect I mean that they

57:00

acted the act of communicating comes

57:02

after pause breathe think You're

57:05

blowing my mind because you

57:07

could literally put those four

57:09

letters on every darn Lego

57:11

blocker strip of paper because

57:13

you're exactly right and The

57:15

amazing is when you really practice is you

57:17

can unlock a bit of a flow

57:20

state where? Those steps become

57:22

incredibly they become incredibly quick

57:24

Once you're in a Efficient

57:26

flow of communication Because think

57:28

how quick your brain can

57:30

sift through words and choose

57:33

ideas But it can't if

57:35

it's not doing those stages if it's just trying

57:37

to look good or trying to not mess up

57:39

We're trying to create a good impression. It can't

57:41

do that. Right, but PBTA

57:44

is just a functional

57:46

version of Another tool

57:48

we use called the oodaloop. You've heard

57:50

of the oodaloop. No educate me So

57:52

it is an acronym because we

57:54

love acronyms in the military for

57:57

observe Orient decide

58:00

and act. So,

58:02

observe, orient, and decide are more theoretical. So,

58:04

the seals say, well, how are we going to

58:06

do that? We're going to pause, we're going

58:08

to breathe, so they open up the space so

58:10

you can become more situational and aware. Then,

58:13

we're going to go into the thinking process,

58:15

and then, you know, obviously some methodologies

58:18

or tools that help with effective thinking, right?

58:20

Yeah. And only then, when you, you know, can

58:22

get through that process, going to act. But

58:24

the idea is to practice it. So, they go

58:26

to loop is meant to be, that's why

58:28

you call it a loop. Observe, you orient yourself

58:30

to what you observe based upon what you

58:32

observe and your orientation to it, you make a

58:34

decision. And then, you

58:37

act on it. And then, you immediately go

58:39

back and start observing it again. You see

58:41

how, how did my words land, or, you

58:43

know, how did this action affect the environment

58:45

or the enemy in the case of the

58:47

seals? And then, you

58:49

kind of keep going through that.

58:51

And so, your decision -making becomes very

58:53

agile and fluid real time. And you

58:55

practice that. It's going to be

58:57

different for every, you know, kind of

58:59

unit. Like, this was originally created

59:01

by a guy named Colonel Boyd, who

59:04

was a fighter pilot. And so,

59:06

this is like, you imagine aerial combat

59:08

is very dynamic. And so, the

59:10

Oodaloop has to be very, very quick.

59:12

And the idea was you, you

59:14

try to confuse the enemy so that

59:16

it severs their Oodaloop or stretches

59:18

it out. While yours remains really tight,

59:20

then you win. For the seals,

59:22

the Oodaloop is going to be, depending

59:25

upon whether you're in an ambush

59:27

or a firefight, it's going to be

59:29

a little bit longer, but still

59:31

pretty dynamic and rapid. Or you can

59:33

look at in terms of like

59:35

longer term, you know, strategically, always learning

59:37

to learn about, you know, how

59:39

your, how your actions, thoughts, decisions, communications

59:41

is affecting your environment and the

59:43

enemy and how you're going to respond

59:45

to that. This is, this is

59:48

why I was so excited to have

59:50

this conversation. Because the things that

59:52

you teach that you've learned that you're

59:54

focused on, maybe even obsessed about

59:56

in a positive way, they're the exact

59:58

same things that I am, but

1:00:00

in a very different. field because what you just described

1:00:02

is what I call a different name

1:00:05

in communication, the virtuous

1:00:07

cycle of good communication.

1:00:09

Because that loop of very rapid

1:00:11

evaluation and action you just

1:00:13

describe is exactly what people

1:00:15

do when they learn this

1:00:18

exercise with the Lego blocks.

1:00:20

And as opposed to being in a

1:00:22

firefight, what they're doing is

1:00:24

evaluating ideas to share. And the

1:00:27

crazy thing about speaking about

1:00:29

speaking. You're talking about a

1:00:31

very high stress, very dangerous

1:00:33

situation, a firefight, or you

1:00:36

know, you're in a fighter

1:00:38

plane in combat. Some speakers,

1:00:40

when they're on stage in

1:00:43

front of the big lights, they

1:00:45

feel as though they are in

1:00:47

a life and death situation. And

1:00:49

so just as that loop helps

1:00:51

train combatants. Is that

1:00:53

the right word? Combatins?

1:00:55

Sure. Sure. Okay. Combatins.

1:00:58

to be incredibly mindful and

1:01:00

fast, though with accurate,

1:01:02

smart decision-making. We're doing the same

1:01:04

thing for speaking. But people can

1:01:06

never do that if they don't

1:01:08

actually slow things down and physically

1:01:10

train. So they build muscle memory

1:01:12

of doing basically that uta loop,

1:01:14

but about speaking. That's cool. You're

1:01:16

the one who said that's cool. I

1:01:19

didn't know about the uta loop. That's

1:01:21

the coolest thing. I'm just started

1:01:23

teaching the Lego drill down to

1:01:25

people saying this is the uta

1:01:27

loop. But for speaking, right? Yeah. We

1:01:29

got to wrap up quickly here,

1:01:31

but this, these three words

1:01:33

have been burning a hole in my

1:01:36

brain. And this was, came from

1:01:38

you, and it has to do with,

1:01:40

I think, content delivery,

1:01:42

but use of antithesis,

1:01:45

assonence, and parable to

1:01:47

create unforgettable messages.

1:01:50

What are those? And how do we

1:01:52

use them to create unforgettable messages? Yeah,

1:01:54

well, let's reference back to Martin Luther

1:01:56

King Jr. shall we? Because he's the

1:01:58

best at all this stuff. poetic devices

1:02:01

or poetical devices and we

1:02:03

used to study this in

1:02:05

rhetoric and we don't so much

1:02:07

anymore. Alliteration is consonant sounds

1:02:09

that are the same. So

1:02:12

when I say I've created

1:02:14

an alliterative system for vocal

1:02:16

variety that is pace, pitch,

1:02:18

pause, power, placement, the fact that

1:02:21

those words all start with

1:02:23

a letter P makes it

1:02:25

illiterative. Acidance is repeated vowel

1:02:28

sounds. So I'll give you

1:02:30

another master beyond Martin Luther

1:02:33

King if you look at

1:02:35

William Shakespeare. This just Asinents

1:02:37

and alliteration is littered through

1:02:40

the complete works. Interesting. And

1:02:42

then parable is a version of

1:02:44

a story. Can you get an

1:02:47

example of Asinets? Yeah. In

1:02:49

sooth I know not why I am

1:02:51

so sad. So all those vowel sounds

1:02:53

in there. Ah. Ah. Ah. You're... Say again

1:02:55

your seal. Your seal call. What

1:02:57

is it? So that is the opposite

1:02:59

of the assidence, because you're two

1:03:01

very different vowel sounds put right

1:03:04

together. What happens when you hear

1:03:06

these repeated sounds is it tends to

1:03:08

create this kind of momentum,

1:03:10

and it moves an audience. If it's

1:03:13

good enough for Shakespeare, and good enough

1:03:15

for Martin Luther King, you're just thinking

1:03:17

how hard it would be to learn

1:03:19

that, because it's really not time. It's

1:03:21

sort of a room, a poetry, really.

1:03:24

Yeah. The place you'll see in the

1:03:26

most everyday manner now is advertising

1:03:28

copy. So just look at billboards. If

1:03:30

you ride rapid transit in whatever

1:03:32

city that you live in, look on

1:03:35

the billboards and signs on rapid

1:03:37

transit, it's all over the place.

1:03:39

You'll begin to see it everywhere.

1:03:41

Why? Because it's catchy. And the

1:03:43

company or advertiser wants you to

1:03:45

have that stuck in your head. But

1:03:47

people can use it for speaking as well.

1:03:50

And the way I would suggest people

1:03:52

begin to... encounter this is just

1:03:54

begin to notice it in the world

1:03:56

around you. Don't even try to adopt

1:03:59

it yourself. Just begin to

1:04:01

notice it. Same vowel sounds,

1:04:03

same consonant sounds. Another

1:04:05

thing you could do is crack

1:04:07

open any play about William Shakespeare

1:04:10

and read a couple pages and

1:04:12

you're gonna find a bunch

1:04:14

of examples of it. Right, and Parable

1:04:17

seems to me to be the

1:04:19

ability to communicate a

1:04:21

complex idea through a very

1:04:23

simple to understand story. Yeah.

1:04:25

And this also reminds me

1:04:27

of something I learned from

1:04:30

my friend Bo Easton who

1:04:32

does communication or storytelling. He

1:04:34

says that the personal is

1:04:36

general is the general. And what

1:04:38

he meant by that is if I have a

1:04:40

story of some challenge I overcame

1:04:42

or some suffering that I endured,

1:04:44

it's not unique to me. So tell

1:04:46

my story and everyone else

1:04:48

will learn the lesson that they need

1:04:51

to learn from it. I don't have

1:04:53

to translate. what they need to know

1:04:55

from the story. So too many speakers

1:04:57

and too much in communication, and we

1:04:59

addressed this a little earlier, try to spell

1:05:01

out the lesson for the individual

1:05:04

as opposed to telling the story

1:05:06

and letting the individual discern their

1:05:08

own lesson. Yeah. And that's what the

1:05:10

parable was. And to keep it simple.

1:05:12

Yes. I mean that was what one

1:05:14

of the, when I think about Jesus

1:05:16

Nazareth, his his teachings were extraordinary because

1:05:19

if he had tried to, you know. explain

1:05:21

some of the really complex things

1:05:23

that he was teaching in the language

1:05:25

of, you know, the day that these people

1:05:27

wouldn't have understood it. Nor

1:05:30

would it stick around two thousand years

1:05:32

later. That's right. So he had to

1:05:34

parabolize it. Yeah. That's a word. It

1:05:36

is now. You just made a word

1:05:38

up just like Shakespeare. Exactly. Funny thing

1:05:40

was the hotel I was in last

1:05:42

night had a book. It was the

1:05:44

just in the room for some reason.

1:05:46

It was the teachings of the Buddha.

1:05:48

And I would say the exact same thing,

1:05:50

incredibly simple teachings, usually built into stories or

1:05:53

parables and things like that. And you're exactly

1:05:55

right. And I would go even further than

1:05:57

your friend, Bo, which is, yes, he's right.

1:06:00

right about all that, I would even

1:06:02

suggest that it's hardwired into

1:06:04

us. Communication is our superpower.

1:06:06

If you read the book Sapiens

1:06:08

by Yufall. Harari. Yeah, thank

1:06:11

you. He talks about how

1:06:13

this development of incredibly

1:06:15

complex and agile communication

1:06:17

allowed us to outcompete

1:06:20

other hominids because we're

1:06:22

able to use story and spoken

1:06:24

communication to create a tribe.

1:06:26

At a bigger tribe and a team and

1:06:28

then eventually... Yeah, most people think it's the

1:06:30

use of tools and the opposing thought

1:06:33

right now. It's actually the ability to

1:06:35

communicate, which then allowed us to

1:06:37

go from me to us. That's

1:06:39

exactly right. Right. So the storytelling,

1:06:41

which activates empathy, which activates relatability,

1:06:43

I would suggest it's hardwired into

1:06:46

us. Interesting. That we gain motivation

1:06:48

and commitment from hearing others share.

1:06:50

Mm-hmm. That's fascinating. Anything else

1:06:52

from the book, we got a wrap-up

1:06:54

soup. Don't say um how to communicate

1:06:56

effectively to live a better life. Yeah,

1:06:59

sure. So here we go. Ask me

1:07:01

ask me a habit or two that

1:07:03

might people might not like that they

1:07:05

have and I'll teach you a drill

1:07:07

how to change it on the delivery

1:07:09

side. So stick to delivery.

1:07:12

Sure. A specific habit or

1:07:14

just like. Ask what's a habit

1:07:16

or two that people might want

1:07:18

to change. Yeah, either one. Well,

1:07:20

I'll take the bait. All right,

1:07:22

here's a good one. You ready?

1:07:24

Eye contact. If you know that

1:07:27

you struggle at times with eye

1:07:29

contacts, don't keep beating yourself

1:07:31

up about that. Instead, grab

1:07:33

a wiffle ball and practice

1:07:35

with a friend. And at

1:07:38

the end of each sentence,

1:07:40

you have to throw a ball to the

1:07:42

friend. So they can catch it. you're going to

1:07:44

throw a ball to them in a second. This

1:07:46

turns eye contact into a game. Because you have

1:07:49

to be looking at them so you know they're

1:07:51

ready to catch the ball and they have to

1:07:53

look at you to prepare to catch the ball.

1:07:55

That's an example. Stance, let's say you know

1:07:58

you have wandering feet when you're on. Don't

1:08:01

just tell yourself, stop shuffling my feet,

1:08:03

stop pacing, stop shuffling, stop pacing. That's

1:08:05

not going to work. That's thought

1:08:07

suppression. And in the

1:08:09

book, you actually in the stance

1:08:11

chapter, I have people lay the book

1:08:13

flat and there's two silhouettes of

1:08:15

feet there. Stand on the book and

1:08:18

just focus on keeping the pages of the book

1:08:20

adhered to the ground. This

1:08:22

is really interesting because I

1:08:24

learned also recently that where

1:08:26

your feet are pointed matters

1:08:29

to the audience. So

1:08:31

for instance, if we're sitting in my

1:08:33

feet or like pointed out like this,

1:08:35

that's noticed right? And it's sending some sort

1:08:37

of message that I'm not really focused

1:08:39

on them. There's something going on, right?

1:08:42

Or if they're all kind of catty won't.

1:08:44

And so when you're standing or

1:08:47

sitting and you're communicating

1:08:49

to point your feet toward the audience. Isn't

1:08:51

that interesting? I don't know what the psychology

1:08:53

is behind that. Yeah. Well, let's anchor it

1:08:55

to something you know really, really well. If

1:08:57

you were in some kind of, let's make

1:08:59

it friendly combat like a martial arts practice

1:09:01

or something, right? And you were going to

1:09:04

spar with an opponent. You would

1:09:06

do that automatically. Footplaces is really

1:09:08

important. Right. And they would be facing

1:09:10

forward underneath you balance as well as

1:09:12

possible, not because you were thinking about

1:09:14

how the audience was perceiving you, but

1:09:16

because that is going to allow you

1:09:18

to move dynamically and safely as quickly

1:09:20

as possible. Right. And again,

1:09:22

the idea here is reinforcing communication

1:09:25

is not you just thinking smart

1:09:27

stuff. It's you unlocking

1:09:29

this positive virtuous cycle

1:09:31

of good communication in which

1:09:33

those smart thoughts can be

1:09:35

shared with other people via the

1:09:37

physical act of speaking. You

1:09:40

know, the exercise that you

1:09:42

talked about today,

1:09:44

obviously they're powerful done as an

1:09:46

individual, but you also talked about a

1:09:48

few kind of partner exercise or

1:09:50

even group exercise. I imagine, you

1:09:53

know, having a like

1:09:55

what I would call a training

1:09:57

team, right? For communication would be

1:09:59

really powerful, right? So if you're, if you

1:10:02

have some friends and you're all working

1:10:04

on becoming public speakers or better

1:10:06

communicators, how cool would it be to

1:10:08

get a group together and once a week, you know,

1:10:10

start drilling. Yeah. Do you have any workshops,

1:10:12

by the way, like that? Sure. Sure. Yeah.

1:10:14

You can just go to my company's website

1:10:17

gK training.com and we leave that kind of

1:10:19

thing all the time. We have online courses

1:10:21

people can take. So yes, to all the

1:10:24

stuff you're saying. And I will even go

1:10:26

further, which is I'll give the audience some

1:10:28

very good news and also some very bad

1:10:30

news. And I mean them both with

1:10:32

100% honesty. The very good news is

1:10:35

if you read this book and use

1:10:37

this book, it will change your life.

1:10:39

That's why the subtitle is How to

1:10:41

Communicate Effectively, it's true.

1:10:44

Here's the bad news. If you don't... Read

1:10:46

the book and use the exercises and practice,

1:10:48

the exercises, it won't do a darn

1:10:50

thing. Right. The same thing is exercising.

1:10:52

The same theory to practice. That's right.

1:10:54

That's right. But the practice is the

1:10:56

key. That's right. So if you read

1:10:58

these exercises, cool, that's amazing. Whiffleball stand

1:11:00

on the book. Stack some Lego blocks,

1:11:02

but you never do them. You will

1:11:04

get Zippola out of this book. So

1:11:06

to your point, when do people get

1:11:08

better at sticking with some discipline and

1:11:10

sticking with some discipline and some practice

1:11:12

with support? So yeah. Build a team

1:11:15

and in fact in the chapter on

1:11:17

building a practice regiment of some sorts

1:11:19

I suggest that grab an accountability partner

1:11:21

or a buddy or even a small

1:11:24

group Do a book club to go

1:11:26

through the book together or yeah people

1:11:28

want to you know work with us

1:11:30

and get a course or a group

1:11:33

workshop you absolutely can

1:11:35

GK training.com You've worked with a

1:11:37

lot of folks and coached a

1:11:39

lot of folks on this. What's

1:11:41

the most valuable? valuable

1:11:43

thing that we could do starting

1:11:46

today to improve our

1:11:48

communications. Yeah. I would legitimately,

1:11:50

even before you buy

1:11:52

the book, if you buy the book,

1:11:55

just take one of the chap, it's

1:11:57

not one of the chapters, one

1:11:59

of the... exercises I talked about

1:12:01

and try it. Literally, as soon as

1:12:03

this podcast is done, try to exercise.

1:12:06

Like a common theme where we got

1:12:08

to start here. Like this is the

1:12:10

most valuable thing you do. No, the reason

1:12:12

I say it is because the first thing,

1:12:14

kind of like your, what's the loop that

1:12:17

you talked about? Yeah, the oodle loop. The

1:12:19

first thing is your job is to

1:12:21

experience, holy cow. by doing this one small

1:12:23

physical intervention I can begin to unlock

1:12:26

a positive feedback loop. So the point is

1:12:28

start anywhere. Use any one of them.

1:12:30

In fact, so if you know you

1:12:32

speak too quickly, do the finger walking exercise.

1:12:34

If you know you ramble, try the

1:12:36

Lego block. If you have a problem with

1:12:38

shuffling feet, stand on a book. Because what

1:12:40

you want to do today is begin to

1:12:43

experience, wow, this can be changed. And

1:12:45

that actually incentivize people to learn. It's

1:12:47

kind of the same as I mean,

1:12:49

let me put the question to you,

1:12:51

the question to you. I'm not in the

1:12:53

greatest physical fitness right now for

1:12:55

a variety of reasons that we

1:12:58

spoke about earlier. I'm not going to

1:13:00

get into that right now. If I said

1:13:02

to you, what can I do today to

1:13:04

begin to improve? What would you tell

1:13:06

me? To start doing burpies. There you

1:13:08

go. It's the exact same thing.

1:13:11

So the burpi of communication. That's

1:13:13

right. The burpi of to be

1:13:15

fair. I would assess you. determine

1:13:17

your dysfunctional patterns and where your

1:13:19

issues are and then design a

1:13:21

program that's customized for you. As

1:13:23

I would too. But you asked me a slightly

1:13:25

different question, which is I can't magically

1:13:28

be myself into tens of thousands and

1:13:30

hundreds of thousands of different places all

1:13:32

the same time. So if you weren't

1:13:34

there to evaluate a person, they had

1:13:36

listened to this pod or they had

1:13:38

read something that you've produced, what would

1:13:40

you have them do? Yeah. I would say

1:13:43

do a burpii and send me a video.

1:13:45

Exactly right. Learn everything I need from that.

1:13:47

That's exactly right. So the same thing here.

1:13:49

So use a Lego drill that I explained

1:13:52

earlier or do one of these exercises and

1:13:54

take a video and send me a

1:13:56

video. Exactly same thing. Interesting. Awesome.

1:13:59

Michael, thanks. so much for

1:14:01

joining me today. And thanks

1:14:03

for coming in person. Yeah.

1:14:05

It's a big call from

1:14:07

Connecticut. Yeah, my pleasure. I

1:14:09

enjoy your time out here

1:14:11

in San Diego, away from

1:14:13

the snow. It's fun to

1:14:15

have a face-to-face conversation. No,

1:14:17

I really appreciate it. Yeah.

1:14:19

Hoo-yaw. Indeed. Or rather, Hoo-yaw.

1:14:21

Yeah. Yeah. Well, wait a

1:14:23

minute. Let's do something then.

1:14:25

Let's do something. Everybody.

1:14:28

If you're in a private place, it's

1:14:30

a knock too weird. I'm completely serious,

1:14:32

wherever you are, if you're private, we're going

1:14:34

to all say this phrase on the count

1:14:36

of three, but when we say it, you're not

1:14:39

going to say it in a limit like,

1:14:41

you're not going to say it in a

1:14:43

limited way. You're going to use all of

1:14:45

your physical and vocal communication instrument

1:14:47

to turn air into sound and

1:14:49

sound into words, which is the

1:14:52

everyday miracle of speaking. So can

1:14:54

you teach the audience again? Hoo-Yaw,

1:14:56

hoo-yaw. Yeah, like that. So on

1:14:58

the count of three, everybody, we're

1:15:00

gonna say this, are you ready for

1:15:02

this? You ready? Yeah, let's do

1:15:05

it. Okay, when you count three,

1:15:07

I was like, if you're, if

1:15:09

you're, if you're listening and you're

1:15:11

not in the, you're in a

1:15:13

public position, you don't have to

1:15:15

do it. Okay, but if you're private,

1:15:17

what you just did was activate

1:15:20

your physical and

1:15:22

vocal communication instrument.

1:15:24

And you can do that all day long,

1:15:27

every day, and get better and better

1:15:29

and better. I'm into that. Thank you

1:15:31

for joining us on the Mark

1:15:33

Devine show. We hope this podcast

1:15:35

has enriched your life as well

1:15:37

as encouraged you to think from

1:15:40

new perspectives and make actionable change.

1:15:42

You can find all the

1:15:44

resources from this episode on

1:15:46

the website Mark Devine.com, along

1:15:48

with the video version on

1:15:50

the YouTube channel. Just search

1:15:53

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1:16:03

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1:16:11

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1:16:15

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1:17:06

Marketing is hard. But I'll

1:17:08

tell you a little secret.

1:17:10

It doesn't have to be.

1:17:12

Let me point something out.

1:17:14

You're listening to a podcast

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right now, and it's great.

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You love the host, you

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seek it out and download

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it, you listen to it

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while driving, working out, cooking,

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even going to the bathroom.

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