0:00

presents 15 Seconds of Strength. Here we go,

0:02

Steve's got a trunk full of groceries,

0:04

and no one to help him. Oh, that's

0:06

tough, Jim. Looks like a five -trip load,

0:08

at least. He grabs the first bag,

0:10

the second. Bob, it looks like he's trying

0:12

to do it on one trip. He

0:14

shimmies the door open, steps over the dog,

0:16

and he stumbles. Oh, right into the

0:19

kitchen without missing a beat. Jim, now that's

0:21

a man who eats his protein -packed Oikos.

0:23

With 15 grams of complete protein in

0:25

each cup, Oikos Triple Zero can help build

0:27

strength for every day. Oikos, stronger makes

0:29

everything better. Welcome

0:38

to The Mark Devine Show. I'm your

0:40

host Mark Devine. Super stoked to have

0:42

you join us today. Your decision to

0:44

tune in signifies our shared pursuit of

0:46

developing as a leader and living an

0:48

uncommon life. The show isn't

0:50

about passive listening. I aim

0:52

to ignite action and spark

0:54

your personal transformation. Each

0:57

episode can inspire tangible and positive

0:59

change in your life and the

1:01

world writ large. Topics

1:03

include physical mental toughness, emotional

1:06

resilience, purpose -finding, breaking

1:08

barriers, evolving consciousness, peak

1:10

performance, spiritual truths, and

1:14

anything to do

1:16

with physical and mental development, such

1:18

as my guest today, Henry

1:20

Abbott, who's an award -winning journalist. He's

1:22

an expert in basketball, having

1:24

a founder of a company called True

1:27

Hoop, which is sold to ESPN. And

1:29

where they're at ESPN, he led

1:31

a 60 -person NBA digital and print

1:34

team. earning a National

1:36

Magazine Award for his groundbreaking work. Henry's

1:39

now channeling his expertise into

1:41

this new project, Ballistic.

1:44

The book Ballistic comes out May 6th, the

1:46

new science of injury -free athletic performs.

1:48

I'm super stoked to talk about this

1:50

with Henry. Thanks for joining me today

1:52

on the Mark Divine Show. Henry,

1:56

thanks so much for joining me today, buddy. Oh, I'm delighted

1:59

to be here. Super stoked to have you.

2:01

We were talking about my voice. You

2:05

know how it could be

2:07

either just internal shock or

2:09

even the nerves maybe paralyzed.

2:12

It's been two months since that accident I have

2:14

and hasn't come back and I appreciate you telling

2:16

me about voice therapy. I think that could be

2:18

helpful. I am increasingly understanding that like

2:20

you know there's like I think there's 600

2:22

muscles in the body and you know our brain

2:24

is very flexible and how it can control

2:26

them like you can train so many things I

2:28

didn't think you could train. It's like neuroplasticity

2:30

is in neuromuscularity, right? It's the coolest stuff in

2:32

the world. pretty cool, yeah. It's hard. All

2:34

of it is weird and it feels hard and

2:36

these exercises that don't Like when, if you

2:38

go to some voice coach, they're not going to

2:40

give you stuff that you're like, oh yeah,

2:42

it's like doing a push -up. It's like, no,

2:45

it's going to feel weird, right? But if you're

2:47

willing to indulge in this weird stuff, you

2:49

can prove so much. mind, let's just say the

2:51

human body mind is just extraordinary. Yeah. You

2:53

know, I was blown away recently and I'm going to

2:55

come back to the voice thing. Reading

2:57

about, I don't

3:00

know what the exact term is,

3:02

but it's something about encephalitis

3:04

where the brain ends up becoming

3:06

like water. There's these patients

3:08

who have this in something encephalitis

3:10

So they don't have a

3:12

brain structure. Yeah, and yet they

3:14

develop full functionality as a

3:16

human being What I know I

3:18

kid you not full functionality with

3:20

the IQ there's many cases

3:22

like this with that like a

3:24

normal IQ We just gotta

3:26

like and they don't have a brain

3:28

like if you give an MRI that's basically

3:30

water with a really thin You know

3:32

white matter on the outside. I mean it

3:35

just doesn't seem possible, but that's just

3:37

shows you the mind is not the brain

3:39

Yeah, of course the brain will affect

3:41

how the mind functions in a normal adult,

3:43

but the power then of the brain

3:45

to heal And then the muscle

3:47

in the body really will respond, right?

3:49

So this is like the key to longevity.

3:51

Everyone's trying to jack themselves up with,

3:53

you know, all these longevity pills and supplements

3:55

and this and that and the other

3:58

thing. And really the key to longevity is

4:00

movement and your mind. And

4:02

those two are the same actually, right? Yeah,

4:04

totally. So one little thing that I

4:06

learned in writing this book is that like

4:08

the part of your brain that manages

4:10

language It is complex and big

4:12

and, you know, and the heart of

4:14

like everything in academia, right? Is Shakespeare

4:16

and all this, right? But that's like

4:18

a little tiny, like a little backpack

4:21

on assistant manager's movement, right?

4:23

Is there, they're, they're, they're tracked together. They

4:25

work the same way and they have same.

4:27

This is why you memorize things better if

4:29

you move. Yeah, exactly. Or you think better,

4:31

like walking, like I used to walk while

4:33

I was thinking. Right, right. That's interesting. I

4:35

had a period. Here's the other thing. If

4:37

that part gets damaged, a different part of

4:39

your brain will pick it up. Oh yeah.

4:41

Like these people who, there are humans who

4:43

can echolocate, right? They're like, can

4:45

you freaking imagine? Like, people

4:47

are worried about learning. that mean, echolocate? I

4:49

don't think I know what that means. Click,

4:51

they click, and then the sounds,

4:53

like there's a guy. bat. Like a

4:56

bat. Oh, I can

4:58

almost, Daniel Kish is his name. There's a

5:00

guy named Daniel Kish, you can look him up.

5:02

He lost his sight when he was a

5:04

child. So his brain was used to seeing, right?

5:06

He wasn't born blind. I see. and

5:09

then his brain rewired so his ears

5:11

have nerves that I'm not a doctor.

5:13

The ears start to see. The part

5:15

of the brain that used to feed

5:17

his eyes, right? And now he can

5:19

click. And if they put him in

5:21

the MRI machine and he listens to

5:23

the same things we hear like music

5:25

or whatever, it acts just like our

5:27

brains. But if his click bounces off,

5:29

it can be something like this or

5:31

that friend or a tent pole or

5:33

whatever. It comes back and lights up

5:35

the visual section of the brain. And

5:37

he can ride a bicycle. He can

5:39

play basketball. He mountain bikes. He's

5:43

got his own internal radars a persona.

5:45

Yeah, so if I'm like if occasionally in

5:47

my life I've had to learn some

5:49

new movement or some odd thing like I'm

5:51

describing You know, I don't I'm not

5:53

good at how I use my hips I

5:55

was born with hip dysplasia And I've

5:57

had a lot of problems from that like

5:59

so they're telling me like oh, you

6:01

know Make sure your hips are level when

6:03

you're standing on one leg in this

6:05

position and it feels weird and difficult like

6:07

this is Child's play easy compared to

6:10

what my buddy Daniel Kish is doing right

6:12

like we can learn so much. It's

6:14

fascinating Well, you know this, I was telling

6:16

my wife that this accident which shattered

6:18

my scapula, it's no real accident, shattered my

6:20

scapula into 18 pieces and broke eight

6:22

ribs, punctured my lungs,

6:24

and all of this stuff is healing

6:26

up. I mean, it's gonna take

6:28

a while for the muscles to remember

6:30

what they're supposed to do and

6:32

then everything to work, but it was

6:34

like the blunt force trauma shock

6:36

to the overall system, which has really

6:38

been hard. And

6:42

because, you know, your energy system just

6:44

is, everything is going to work to

6:46

try to heal all of that. Whatever

6:49

that is, right? So you smack a tree

6:51

going 40 miles an hour. A lot of

6:53

little micro traumas are happening, macro traumas. And

6:55

so this is why the voice is gone

6:57

and my internal organs are a little bit

6:59

whacked and all the muscles on my upper

7:01

body are still sore two months later. Do

7:03

you feel like you have a little PTSD?

7:08

It's interesting. I was wondering about that and

7:10

I did a whole discussion about PTSD with

7:12

my clients the other day. I'd

7:15

be foolish for me to

7:17

say that I don't, but I

7:19

haven't experienced any mood disorders. I

7:22

haven't experienced any depression

7:24

or anxiety, the

7:26

usual symptoms. And I

7:28

attribute to that to like pre -resiliency.

7:31

You know, I've been having breath

7:33

work practice since I was 21. and

7:36

meditating since I was 21, therapy,

7:38

all sorts of modalities, because that's what

7:40

I teach. So

7:42

it's kind of like when I train

7:45

seals, I train them to be resilient

7:47

before the crisis, so they bounce back

7:49

really quickly after combat or whatever's happening. So

7:52

that's what I attribute to you, but you never

7:54

know, well, pay attention. Yeah, yeah. How would you,

7:56

I mean, I don't want to, like, I'm not

7:58

going to suck when I analyze you. Please do.

8:00

But like, you know - we make for a

8:02

great episode? If I, if I had to say

8:04

to jump on a snowmobile right now, do you

8:07

want to join me in that? Fuck that. I'm

8:10

never gonna hit a snowmobile again in my

8:12

life. Or a motorcycle.

8:15

Yeah, These things are evil. They're pretty tough.

8:17

They're ridiculous. Well, it's kind of dumb. I

8:19

feel like, you know, You've done, I can

8:21

only imagine how many dangerous things you've done

8:24

that were like for a big cause, right?

8:26

But yeah, I was just paid for it

8:28

too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is just like,

8:30

you know. little trip cost me about 20

8:32

grand and you had all the, the motorcycle

8:34

or the snowmobile damage and the airfare and

8:36

the medical bills. And it was just to

8:38

be like a little more fun than if

8:40

you'd gone swimming that day, right? You know

8:42

what I mean? Like that's like, anyway,

8:44

yeah, I feel like this, I'm. At this age, when

8:46

I was young, I did every fun thing I could do,

8:48

right? But now I'm like, no, no, it's gotta be

8:50

like, you know, it has to be

8:52

really fun for me to accept that much teacher.

8:55

And my definition of fun is different than what

8:57

we get and the wiser we get, right?

8:59

For me, like it's fun hanging out in the

9:01

beach and meditating or going for a walk

9:03

or being in nature, you know? Sure. I'm

9:05

not, I don't need

9:07

to chase something outside of myself. You

9:10

know, I've done podcasts with tons of people

9:12

and I'm sure you know tons of people who

9:14

are I'm always trying to do

9:16

that next greatest thing. And I

9:18

don't mean just like exciting, like speed, but like, well,

9:21

you know, let's see, I did six

9:23

marathons and six continents and six days. Now

9:25

what can I do? Right? Oh, I'm

9:27

going to do seven triathlons and seven continents.

9:30

Seven continents? I don't know me. Maybe not. Many as

9:32

you want. Yeah. And

9:37

then I'm going to climb all seven sisters, you

9:39

know, of the mountains. I remember

9:41

asking Don Mann, who's a good friend of mine.

9:43

And I said, what are you running from,

9:45

Don? Like I stopped him in his tracks. He's

9:47

like, people are praising him and everything. I'm

9:49

like, Don, what are you running from? Yeah. Or

9:52

running toward. Like you're running toward your

9:54

death or you're running from some sort of

9:56

childhood trauma that says, the

9:58

last thing I did isn't enough. I have to do

10:00

something more. Yeah. It's not enough that

10:02

I was a Navy SEAL. Yeah. And

10:04

it's not enough that I climbed

10:06

Everest. I feel

10:08

that. I don't have that need anymore. Maybe when I

10:10

was younger I did. I'm fascinated by those people

10:13

and I'm a fan of like just, I like to

10:15

move. I like to do stuff. I don't, you

10:17

know, I'm like adventure, right? But it

10:19

is curious to me. I'm like, why can't

10:21

you go home? And just like the joy

10:23

of movement, right? Like I, I

10:25

think I interviewed Marcus Elliott

10:27

44 times for this book and

10:29

almost all of them, he

10:31

just isn't a guy who wants

10:33

to sit inside and talk.

10:35

Like, and so to get the

10:37

book done, I rented a high -end

10:39

mountain bike every single time I went

10:42

to Santa Barbara to interview him. And

10:44

I would put my phone in his

10:46

pocket with the corded earbuds that come

10:48

with their phone in his ear. And

10:50

then on my handlebars, I had

10:52

the questions. And then we would

10:54

just do whatever crazy thing. And

10:58

I have all these hours. Or other

11:00

times we would hike and jump off waterfalls

11:02

and stuff. But that's how I interviewed

11:04

him. I mean, a couple of times we

11:06

played backgammon or something. I

11:08

don't remember a single time we just sat

11:10

in two chairs and I interviewed him like

11:12

that. Interesting. But that was about, you know,

11:14

we like hanging out. The

11:16

hills above Santa Barbara

11:18

are like heavenly. Every

11:20

turn you're like, what

11:23

a great thing to be alive and to

11:25

be here with this view and these like

11:27

grackles and this juniper smell and these like

11:29

incredible, I think it's called like a, there's

11:31

some plant that only blooms like once a century. Do you know what

11:33

I'm talking about? that thing's

11:35

blooming and or do to jump off this

11:37

waterfall? Actually,

11:39

I went enough times

11:42

and was just ecstatic enough.

11:44

I live in New Jersey. We do

11:46

have more of this than people think, but

11:48

just out of guilt, I brought my

11:50

son because he's just going to love this.

11:53

So for the last couple of trips of

11:55

reporting the book, he came with me just

11:57

to bop around in the woods and jump

11:59

off things and just be like, wild animals

12:01

or whatever. No, I think you're right. I

12:04

mean, humans are happiest when they can move

12:06

and play. Totally. You know what I mean?

12:08

And like the best form of exercise is

12:10

play. Yeah, totally. Like move nat, you know

12:12

what I mean? Like, I think I did

12:14

a podcast with the founder of move nat,

12:16

move nation, or move natural, move nat. And

12:19

animal fitness, right? These types of

12:21

things are just super cool. Are you

12:23

just playing? Yeah, yeah. Just playing.

12:25

And you have to know what you

12:27

love, right? Right. Like, this is

12:29

the problem with everybody doing the same workout. I mean,

12:31

I go to the gym and I do the

12:33

same workout. But like, the problem is that, like, I

12:36

might really enjoy this one thing and you

12:38

might enjoy the other thing and there's no

12:40

point in us pretending that we're equally, like,

12:42

but, you know, when I drove here today,

12:44

intentionally a little bit early and there's the

12:46

ocean and I just want to jump in

12:48

it. You know, it's just like how I

12:50

am. It kills me to go near an

12:52

ocean and not jump in it. So

12:54

I... I put a towel in the car, I

12:56

spent an extra half an I left half an hour

12:59

early and just jumped in. How's the water? It's

13:01

cold. It's cold, isn't it? But I love that feeling

13:03

afterward, right? Like the time you're walking, I've noticed

13:05

this. We do this cold water thing with some friends

13:07

in our house. Like it's like almost like a

13:09

ritual we keep doing and we jump up this waterfall

13:11

into this cold water. And when we're going out,

13:13

everybody's anxious, right? Everybody's like, oh, maybe I won't do

13:15

it. And I'll see you like. And

13:17

then we come back. Everyone's high as a

13:19

kite. High as a kite. No problems. And

13:22

we're all bonded. Everyone just loves it. And then

13:24

you go eat delicious food. And like, people

13:26

are just, yeah, high as a kite, as you say.

13:28

Like it's just a great thing. Yeah. Look, I'm getting goosebumps.

13:31

I know. I was thinking about that. Like

13:33

you're bringing me back to my experiences upstate

13:35

New York. I'm from East Coast as well.

13:37

Oh, we're upstate. We wintered

13:39

in kind of like Syracuse, Utica region.

13:42

Yeah. So central leather stocking region. Went

13:45

to high school and college up

13:47

there actually But summertime was up in

13:49

the Iran Dix on Lake Placid.

13:51

Oh, cool. And I had this kind

13:54

of Geographically ideal like in the

13:56

family it wasn't so ideal like a

13:58

lot of shit going on there

14:00

Come front a yeah But in terms

14:02

of like Like being able to

14:04

just be outside and play. Yeah, this

14:06

this place my parents had was

14:09

on the West Shore Lake Placid. There's

14:11

no road access Oh, cool. So

14:13

we had a small fleet of boats.

14:16

You know, we had a Boston well and

14:18

a rammer on the lake anytime I wanted

14:20

to go. And we had, of course, the

14:22

Adirondack guide boat. We had the canoes, kayaks,

14:24

sailboat. We had a ski nautique, you

14:26

know, for water skiing. So,

14:28

slum skiing, barefooting, you know,

14:30

tournaments. We'd made

14:33

all sorts of toys

14:35

that we would just test

14:37

underwater. Like, I remember

14:39

creating this underwater sled, right?

14:42

And I would hook it to the end of a

14:44

ski rope, and you'd kind of purpose this thing, and

14:46

that would just go down, you know, and hold the

14:48

breath. Wait, wait, wait. It was like an early S

14:50

.D .V. Sealed delivery vehicle, you know? And so I would

14:52

just cruise on the water. And you're

14:54

like, yeah. You're like Superman, basically. Exactly. Oh,

14:56

my God, that's so cool. It was great

14:58

until I hit a rock. I

15:00

was like, that's kind of shocked me. Took

15:03

the fun out of that. Oh,

15:05

my goodness. Yeah, the danger level on

15:07

that thing is ridiculous. You're

15:09

basically blind, right? You can't see anything.

15:11

Well, the lake is murky at that

15:13

depth, and you're not really able to

15:15

see much. How old were you? That

15:18

was probably like 15 for that one.

15:20

I can't, like, my kids like to do

15:22

adventurous things, but I can just like...

15:24

can just imagine they're like, hey, mom, what

15:27

we're doing is we're in a weighted

15:29

device that we're going to tow behind a

15:31

boat that's going to drive like superman.

15:33

So you could see why I was a

15:35

good Navy ship because I got really

15:37

good at holding my breath. Yeah. I'm really

15:39

comfortable in the water doing dangerous things.

15:41

Yeah. And then how long can you hold

15:43

your breath? Four to five minutes

15:45

easy. But I mean, now I know that's barely

15:47

anything. Yeah. Back then I thought it was

15:49

a lot, you know, six minutes, but I'm really

15:51

pushing it. Yeah. This is in the water.

15:53

I did a podcast with a guy named Stig

15:56

who held his breath for like 22 minutes.

15:58

Oh my God. It's impossible,

16:00

does it? I did a little thing once

16:02

where I'd never done any kind of

16:04

breath holding, you know, with a clock. And

16:07

this, and I was, first

16:09

time I went to P3, the manager of...

16:11

of the parts called Alex and he's like, oh,

16:13

this guy from Stanford was here and he's just breath

16:15

holding thing. We could run through it if you

16:17

want. I'm like, all right. So we lay down on

16:19

the floor and he's like, how long do think

16:21

you hold your breath? I'm like, I don't know, 90

16:23

seconds. I really had no idea. And so I

16:25

held my breath for 90 seconds and he's like, great,

16:27

why don't we do this now? he just, I

16:29

have it all recorded. He just talked through a little

16:31

bit of clearing the CO2 or whatever that thing

16:33

is and then told me to picture a flickering candle

16:35

and he said that. If

16:37

I wanted to put a pulse oximeter

16:40

on my finger you want me to

16:42

know that like that feeling of needing

16:44

a breath There's like a pregnancy contraction,

16:46

right? And it passes passes then you

16:48

got another 40 % or so. Yeah,

16:50

you don't need That's not the sign

16:52

of you need oxygen. You're gonna die

16:54

He just said that and then he

16:56

talked a little bit to the thing

16:58

and I did I think I want

17:00

to say like 314 309 something like

17:02

that pretty good. He's like, let's do

17:04

one more This is a good time

17:06

to do another one and I did

17:08

409 this is like 10 minutes after

17:10

I first got any coaching in this.

17:12

And Marcus did 459. The numbers

17:14

are in the book, but I was like,

17:16

mean, this is just from a dude talking to

17:18

me for three minutes about my body, giving

17:20

me a little confidence that I'm okay. Like, there

17:22

you go, buddy, you're okay. And suddenly I

17:24

went from 90 seconds to over four minutes. I

17:26

was like, I love that kind of stuff.

17:29

That's what we're talking about. To begin with, you

17:31

can improve these things. That's right. The

17:33

use of the mind. And you know, I'm

17:35

running around in the mountains too. I

17:38

think that's what taught

17:40

me to be comfortable.

17:44

A, it taught me to be kind of

17:46

a hybrid athlete, right? So

17:48

for instance, we

17:50

would run up, my friend and I, who is

17:52

a Harvard guy, we would run up to

17:54

the top of the mountain, white face

17:56

mountain, and then we would put knee pads

17:58

on and we'd wrap our ankles and we

18:00

played tag on the way down. Oh my

18:02

gosh. You're carrying packs too?

18:04

Yeah, like packs, water, you know.

18:07

But if you ever hiked in

18:09

those mountains, like it's all rocks

18:11

and roots. Yeah. And like

18:13

ankle breaking material. There's very few

18:15

like straight flat paths. Yeah. And so

18:17

we were like just tumbling and

18:20

I mean it was just a shit

18:22

show all the way down. You're

18:24

bloody at the bottom? Bloody and having

18:26

a ball. Yeah, yeah. And so

18:28

we had to become very body aware.

18:31

If we were talking about this, my sobil accident,

18:33

like how was it that as I exited

18:35

this so building 40 miles an hour in a

18:37

tree, which is probably 10 feet away or

18:39

whatever, I was able to pivot

18:41

my body and roll to take

18:43

the blow on my shoulder blade instead

18:45

of my head, which would have

18:47

killed me. I just love that skill

18:49

set. That's called proprioception. Yeah. Isn't

18:51

it? And so that's what that type

18:53

of training. leads to. And it's

18:55

also ballistic. So we can tie this

18:57

into your into your philosophy later.

18:59

Like, you're like, bounding and bouncing and

19:01

jumping and leaping. And it's all

19:03

plyometric sprinting. And that

19:05

developed like this tremendous athleticism that I never

19:07

was going to get just swimming back

19:09

and forth in a pool. And

19:11

you get you have real stakes, right? So

19:13

every all the best athletes are wild animals,

19:15

right? Right. And they're life or death. right,

19:18

real stakes, the risk is high. Yeah, so

19:20

they have to learn, right? That means you

19:22

have to be very aware, very present, focused. You

19:24

can't be distracted. Like you're running

19:26

down a rocky mountain, right? You've got

19:28

to really, you are. I know

19:30

that feeling of like, yeah. Like it's

19:33

game on. Yeah. So when I

19:35

go to like YMCA or a normal

19:37

gym, which is very rare, I

19:39

haven't been in years, but I see

19:41

people like standing on a treadmill

19:43

reading people magazine. I'm like... not really

19:45

exercise. I mean, it

19:47

kind of is, but it's

19:50

like so monochromatic, so one -dimensional.

19:52

And like, you're missing such great opportunities. Immobility

19:54

is the fourth leading cause of death,

19:57

according to WHO. Like, part of

19:59

it, there are a lot of reasons for that,

20:01

right? Well, one of them is moving like that

20:03

just isn't fun enough. It's not fun enough. It's

20:05

not fun enough. Well, you're not developing anything

20:07

but maybe some cardiovascular health. Yeah. It's better than

20:09

sitting. Better than sitting. mean, you're not developing your

20:11

mind like that type. type of ballistic training, we're

20:13

talking about our fun training or outdoor where

20:15

the risks are high, especially if you do it

20:17

with a team or at least one other. There's

20:20

a lot going on

20:22

psycho emotionally, right? You're

20:24

developing your mind, you're developing

20:26

awareness, you're going concentration, focus, attention

20:28

control, and you're getting in

20:30

attunement. with your partner, your teammate,

20:32

which has got that kind

20:35

of heart or empathic connection. So

20:37

you're developing your heart intuition,

20:39

right? I mean, it is a

20:41

multi -dimensional developmental practice as opposed to

20:43

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the journey. Yeah,

22:11

and it's not the same as, I

22:14

don't know if I'm liberal

22:16

or conservative on jumping off

22:18

cliffs. I

22:20

love to jump off cliffs, but I'm

22:22

not going to ever jump off a

22:25

cliff that's stupid or dangerous. Right? Like,

22:27

like, you know, I'm going to

22:29

inspect the hell out of the landing. I'm to

22:31

talk to people who know I'm going to, you know,

22:33

if there's a way that's pretty dangerous to you.

22:35

We had a friend who killed himself, jump off a

22:37

cliff in Hawaii down here. Was he

22:39

trying to hit the water? And what happened? It

22:42

was called the red needle. Oh.

22:54

Yeah, he missed it. See,

22:57

I would not do that one. Yeah, that's

22:59

not. That's excessive risk. Right.

23:07

To test the water. Yeah.

23:18

But yeah, that's what we learned in the

23:20

SEALs. You have to have a solid assessment

23:22

of the risk and then you mitigate the

23:24

risk and then you train for it. And

23:26

then you just go. And then you, once

23:28

you've done all that, then you go. Yeah,

23:30

there's like a part that's super sober, right?

23:32

You got to prep, you got to know,

23:34

you got to have the technique. And then

23:36

it's like, wow. At some point, like it's,

23:39

you know. My friend, Andy Stump, Navy SEAL

23:41

is a wing jumper. He

23:43

held the world record for a while. I don't know

23:45

if he does anymore. I think he flew like 17

23:47

miles. Overland. What?

23:49

Isn't that crazy? So

23:52

that's like jumping out and he's falling 120 miles, but

23:54

he's got a wingsuit on his flight. He flew 17

23:56

miles. So what altitude is he starting at? That's

23:58

a good question. I'll be 20 ,000.

24:00

Pretty high. Yeah. Yeah. That's with the

24:02

oxygen? Or no. I have

24:05

no idea how early they jump. That's,

24:07

wow. I should check. But anyways, he

24:09

said that I don't know what it

24:11

is now. We could probably ask, you

24:13

know, jet GBT, but how many people

24:15

die and... jumping, but at the time,

24:18

it was like 40 a month, we're

24:20

dying. I've actually looked at this list.

24:22

There's a list of scene. There's a

24:24

guy. I think you probably

24:26

know who he is. I forget, but he was

24:28

like this French guy who was the wizard

24:30

of precision stuff. Like he would set up little

24:32

targets and he'd swing by and like hit

24:34

this foam target or whatever. And he taught classes

24:36

and. I think it seems like Paulin

24:38

or something. He was like the great Paulin who would teach

24:40

everybody. And basically, if he was on the project, people felt

24:42

like it was a safe project. He flew into

24:44

a tree and died. So it's like, all

24:46

right. And I did a little homework

24:48

on it. There's a little part of in

24:50

the book, actually, about this. But the

24:53

problem is that you can predict the weather,

24:55

but you can't predict the micro. You

24:58

can drop 10 times on the same day over the

25:00

same course. And when you come over that lip the next

25:02

time, there might be a little microcurrent. We're now at

25:04

10 feet lower. Nobody, there's

25:06

no science to know that. The same job is

25:08

never gonna be the same job. I

25:10

mean, that sounds silly, but it's so

25:12

true. Yeah, I'm not doing that either.

25:15

The same job is never gonna be the same job. So

25:17

I said, well, why is that?

25:19

And he says, proper

25:22

prior planning prevents

25:24

fist -bombing. Execution.

25:27

So they're not taking their

25:29

risks seriously enough, and they're

25:32

not practicing enough. And he

25:34

would spend hours and hours

25:36

and hours planning every single

25:38

jump. And he had like

25:40

17 ,000 or 20 ,000 jumps. But

25:43

he didn't have my wife. Didn't have

25:45

your wife. I don't think he did. would have my funeral

25:47

being like, he just did a really stupid thing. I

25:49

don't know why he did that. That's

25:52

right. That's

25:54

a bummer. Oh,

25:57

man. It's about an

25:59

average of two people a month.

26:02

Yeah. Don't know where

26:04

I got 40 just me making shit up again.

26:06

They just don't have it together. it

26:08

really was just

26:10

a craze at

26:13

one time Yeah,

26:15

yeah Yeah Well,

26:28

I think we just landed. And one of

26:30

the rules for living long is don't do stupid

26:32

things. Right? Smart. Yeah.

26:34

That makes sense. Yeah. I can see the

26:36

logic in that. See the logic in

26:38

that. Snowmobiles. going

26:40

to do something stupid. Do it wisely.

26:43

Yeah. Plan for it. I

26:46

mean, it better be your thing, I think, right?

26:48

Like, this is, to me, it's like, oh,

26:50

he died doing what he loves. Died doing he

26:52

loves. That's different from like, he just tried some weird

26:54

thing and, you know. That's my great example. That

26:56

is Big Dave, man, who was at SEAL team through

26:59

with me. Like, Big Dave, what

27:01

a beast this guy was.

27:04

So before he became a SEAL, he was a saturation

27:06

diver, commercial sat diver, like for the

27:08

oil and gas industry. And he'd been bent a couple

27:10

of times. And that's really painful

27:12

on the joints. And so to alleviate

27:14

the pain, he would lift weights. Oh. Quite

27:16

today. And this guy

27:18

would be lifting weights. He

27:20

would eat like just a can

27:22

of tuna. I

27:24

know it's evil. You know that

27:27

exercise where you just, like

27:29

the evil wheel, and most people do

27:31

the evil wheel from their knees? Yeah. Well,

27:33

he would have a barbell that he

27:35

would use as an evil wheel. And he'd

27:37

go from standing to full extension, back

27:39

to standing, put it in rest, boom, boom,

27:41

boom, boom, boom. Wow. And this guy's

27:43

stomach was just like a freaking climbing wall,

27:45

right? Like

27:47

you could see, you could literally grab onto

27:49

each one of his abs and like hang

27:51

off of it. That's how strong he was. And

27:54

the funny couple of stories and I'll tell you,

27:57

or one story and then I'll tell you what happened

27:59

back to our point, you know, don't do stupid

28:01

things or is it your passion? because

28:04

he had such a strong core and

28:07

the Navy back then, you know, would

28:09

do this fat test where they just

28:11

kind of like measure your neck and

28:13

measure your waist and compare it to

28:15

an average scale. He'd fail this test.

28:17

He'd fail it every time. That's so

28:19

stupid. He'd fail it every

28:21

time and finally he literally got

28:23

an administrative discharge order. Like

28:25

you're being administratively separated for

28:27

being overweight and he had

28:30

about 0 .5 % body fat.

28:32

And he got so pissed that he just I'm mad

28:35

for him. Yeah. He stormed into the admiral's office.

28:37

This is back when you could, you know, he had

28:39

admals like right there. Stormed into

28:41

the admiral's office, took his uniform and just

28:43

ripped it open. He goes, does

28:45

that look like fat to you,

28:47

sir? The

28:49

admals like, he knew when he was like, Dave,

28:51

I'll take care of this. I'll take care of this.

28:53

Let's sign this symbol for him. Put

28:56

your shirt back on. Anyways,

28:58

Dave, he loved diving,

29:00

man. And so he created - a

29:02

lot of the diving protocols for the

29:04

seals for combat swimmer. He worked with

29:06

the German comp swimmers and a lot

29:09

of the diving SOPs and protocols and

29:11

everything came from him. And

29:13

he was also a tinkerer. And

29:15

what he does, he built a dive

29:17

rig that had a 12 hour, a

29:19

mixed gas dive rig that had a

29:21

12 hour underwater duration. Think

29:23

about that. Like

29:26

an open circuit rig, you can, you know,

29:28

the bottles are depleted in what 45 minutes.

29:30

closed circuit rigs that we use to

29:33

this day were German Dreggers and

29:35

they have roughly a four -hour duration

29:37

depending upon your uptake of the oxygen.

29:40

His device had a 12 -hour

29:42

duration. Yeah, that's crazy.

29:44

It's crazy. And so he'd

29:46

been testing this for years and this

29:49

guy, Dave, would go in at

29:51

Point Loma here in San Diego and

29:53

go underwater and he wouldn't surface

29:55

until he got up to Marine Corps.

29:57

based Del Mar boat basin. How

30:00

far is that? Miles.

30:02

He's wearing like flippers. Well, he just got his

30:04

fins, got a little weight vest. He's

30:07

got what we call an attack board,

30:09

which has got his navigation. So everything is

30:11

by dead reckoning. He's got compass, he's

30:13

got a depth gauge and a watch. But

30:15

his guy is so good that he can

30:17

just, he can look at the way the currents

30:19

are flowing and the sediment and everything. And

30:21

he can give you set and drift and current

30:24

and everything. That's so

30:26

amazing. And so he also... He's

30:28

a dolphin basically. This is really funny. He is basically a

30:30

dolphin in a prior life. He used to

30:32

bring these rubber fish with him. And

30:35

you're thinking, like, why would he bring rubber fish with him?

30:37

Well, because every once in a while, he'd come across a

30:39

fishing boat, right? And

30:41

he would find... He's just having fun with

30:43

himself. Oh, my God. He would find their

30:45

lines and start tugging their lines, and they'd

30:47

slap a rubber fish on it. God. And

30:50

they're like, yeah, we got a big one.

30:52

They pull it up and there's this rubber

30:54

fish. They're never going to make sense. There's

30:57

no explanation that works. Yeah.

30:59

Anyways, one day he just

31:01

never came back. Oh, no.

31:03

And we, SEAL team three let us

31:05

shut down operations because they knew

31:08

he was out there and went diving

31:10

for him. How do you

31:12

even know where to look? Well, they

31:14

knew the route. I mean, the team

31:16

always knew because he would do this

31:18

on the weekends. Yeah. And that was

31:20

his mental training. That

31:23

was his time in nature. Underwater for

31:25

six to eight hours. Just

31:28

having fun. And he didn't come

31:30

back. And so we searched at the

31:32

most likely places, you know, time

31:34

that probably would have entered. And

31:36

we didn't find him. Seal teams didn't find

31:38

him, but a father and son who were

31:41

diving found him off of La Jolla Shores.

31:43

How old was he? He was 40 years

31:45

old. Oh, young guy. And he was still

31:47

floating, still had his regular in his mouth,

31:49

still had his rubberfish, and he had just

31:51

had a massive heart attack. Oh my gosh.

31:55

Probably from all the sat diving he had done.

31:57

Yeah, I guess so. I guess so. So

31:59

is that doing stupid shit, or is that being

32:01

passionate and dying during what you love? I

32:03

put that in the letter. I mean, he was

32:05

doing it every weekend. I'm thinking he loved

32:07

that. He loved it. Yeah. Yeah. I'm

32:09

sorry to happen that way, though. That's like, oh,

32:11

what a bummer. I know. He's so young, too.

32:13

So young. Yeah, I thought you

32:15

were going to say he was like 60, you

32:18

know, but no. Yeah, wow. That's your time. It's

32:20

your time. That does sound

32:22

fun, though, to be honest. Like, I think that'd

32:24

be fun to go horse around in the

32:26

water and rubber fish on the fishing lines. Like,

32:28

I feel pretty cool. A

32:30

lot of people think diving is just like going to a

32:32

wreck or going to a reef. Some

32:35

pretty interesting things happening in the

32:37

dive world, you know, especially when

32:39

it when it comes to like the

32:42

secret side, right? Like. What's

32:44

happening like the Nord Stream for example

32:46

like that was some divers. Yeah,

32:48

it went down and you know blew

32:50

that thing up like what a

32:52

cool off regardless of your geopolitical Got

32:54

away. That's pretty cool. Yeah, do

32:56

you know Jack Ramsey, you know who he

32:58

is? I do. Yeah, you know, he was a

33:00

frog man. Do you know this? No,

33:03

right? Okay, so I one of the

33:05

blessings of my weird career is that

33:07

I spent a whole NBA finals Which

33:09

is like three weeks with Jack with

33:11

dr. Jack Ramsey. No kidding. We were

33:13

doing they may finals together on some

33:15

digit on these pens, like digital. What

33:17

was his? What was he? Tell me

33:19

about Jack. So he was, I mean,

33:21

he, well, he's a legend to me

33:23

because I grew up in Portland, Oregon.

33:25

And in 1977, the trouble is there

33:27

was one NBA championship coach coached by

33:29

Jack Ramsey. So he's like, he was

33:31

the coach that wore like plaid bell

33:33

bottoms. That's

33:36

awesome. He coached all these legends. He

33:39

was around the sport forever. People to call

33:41

him Dr. Jack. He was a sort of

33:43

legendary figure. And he died a few years ago.

33:45

But we spent a of time together. And

33:47

he was basically the great disappointment of his life

33:49

is that in the earliest days of US

33:51

Special Forces, they had these, as

33:53

he tells me, UDT. OK, he

33:55

knew more than I do. But he

33:57

was in Hawaii training like a mofo

33:59

to swim and plant bombs on the

34:01

bottom of ships in harbor and then

34:03

swim away. And he never got deployed.

34:05

And he's still pissed like he was

34:07

like he's ready to go You know

34:09

like and then when he was 70

34:11

I was nobody knew this but he

34:13

was like a top -ranked top national

34:16

triathlete And he would just go on

34:18

his own time and nobody knew this and

34:20

you know just kick ass and one

34:22

of my little favorite stories of him was

34:24

which his son told me was um

34:26

He transitioned to the run at the end

34:28

right and and he's got two problems

34:30

on the run one is his watch is

34:32

gone somebody stole his watch and two

34:34

is his shoe is super on wrong, super

34:36

uncomfortable. And, um, I think he's running

34:38

a 10 K or whatever. And, uh, and he's in the

34:40

seventies. And then after a while, I was like, Oh,

34:42

my watch is in my shoe. That's

34:44

what's going on. Did he stop?

34:47

Like, no, man. Yeah. But

34:51

I would be like, honestly, we had a bunch

34:53

of great times. You kind of think you would

34:56

figure that out as you put your shoe on.

34:58

You would think you would think. Um,

35:01

But honestly, this is how much she meant to

35:03

me was one morning I went down to

35:05

the hotel that we were all staying in and

35:07

went to the little buffet and I got

35:09

healthy breakfast. I got like, you know, fruit, yogurt,

35:12

granola, nuts. And

35:14

I turn the corner and there's Dr. Jack.

35:16

And he has the exact same breakfast.

35:18

And I'm like, I'm so proud.

35:22

He's this, like, wooly, 75 -year -old. And

35:24

he's eating like I am. And

35:26

I'm eating like he is. And that

35:28

makes me feel good. That's awesome.

35:30

How did you get into that? Um,

35:32

you know, important for the NBA.

35:34

Yeah. So, I

35:36

mean, it doesn't look like you are a professional

35:38

basketball player. Come on. So

35:42

roll the tape. Um,

35:44

uh, okay. So I

35:46

went to NYU and I did

35:48

a semester in Tibet. So

35:50

I was gone and that was when you're supposed to

35:52

declare your major and I came back and they were like

35:54

hey You're a junior now and you have no part

35:56

of major you have to tell us right now and

35:58

I was like can I have an hour? And they're like

36:00

no I'm like come on please can I have an

36:02

hour? And so like okay you have an hour So

36:04

I called my high school buddy and he was like

36:07

well seems like you kind of like journalism Maybe you

36:09

should do that so like great idea. So I called him

36:11

back. like journalism and then all through journalism school People

36:13

there were a few dudes who were like I'm gonna

36:15

be a sports journalist. I was like that's not a

36:17

real job. You can't that's not a They can't just

36:19

do fun. you get paid doing this? Yeah, I just, I

36:21

was like, I'm suspicious of that. So I just didn't

36:23

do that. And then so I

36:25

did real news and I worked at CBS News and

36:27

I worked a bunch of magazines and stuff. And

36:29

then... Used to be real news, you

36:31

mean? Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah,

36:33

exactly. It was hard when you had to tell the

36:36

truth, man. That was a really hard job. I

36:38

remember those days. Yeah. I'm telling you, we worked that

36:40

hard at it. I literally had the job of

36:42

like, ma 'am, did the plane hit your house? Like,

36:44

no. Do you happen to know the number of those

36:46

people? Yeah, I

36:49

was like a desk assistant at CVS,

36:51

network radio news. Anyway, then I went to

36:53

a little high school reunion thing. And there

36:55

was a woman there who was the managing

36:57

editor of Slam magazine, a basketball magazine. And

37:00

I love basketball. I grew

37:02

up watching basketball, watching the

37:04

Blazers. And a few months

37:06

later, she got a new job, she and

37:08

her boss got hired away, and they learned from

37:10

the lawyers they weren't allowed to use any

37:12

of the freelancers they used to use. And they

37:14

had a magazine to close until she called

37:16

me like begging, like, would you please go and

37:18

interview this NBA player for us? Like, I

37:20

know it's kind of slumming for you, but like,

37:22

we'd really appreciate it. And I was like...

37:24

mean, I guess like and so then I went

37:26

and it was like the greatest I never

37:28

had more fun talking to me a player than

37:30

that first one And I was like, oh,

37:33

I want to do this, right? So I just

37:35

started covering the NBA for first two magazines

37:37

Then I started a website and the SPN bought

37:39

that website and I was the SPN for

37:41

10 years and I managed this huge team of

37:43

60 people and yeah, and then eventually I

37:45

They gave me back the name of my website

37:47

so it's true hoop and and we're running

37:49

it now as an email newsletter and a podcast

37:51

and and then in the middle of that

37:53

came the pandemic. And I literally was like, I

37:56

wanna work on

37:58

something inspiring. And

38:00

nothing was inspiring in the pandemic, right? I

38:03

was, I have a nasal office in my attic and I

38:05

was up there just like, and I come down and like,

38:07

I'm about to be like, Kind of

38:09

a boring crappy dad, you know, just like

38:11

usually I would be like lively but

38:13

a lot of people had that experience Yeah,

38:15

and so I gotta do something different

38:17

to pull myself out of this funk. Yeah.

38:20

Yeah, that's how a people wrote books

38:22

or started businesses or moved, you know to

38:24

different countries or whatever Yeah, yeah, I

38:26

get that I totally see like Mexico City.

38:28

It'd be really fun like whatever Yeah, I

38:30

literally just kind of brainstorm like what's the

38:33

most kind of uplifting inspiring like authentic thing

38:35

I know of that would make a book right

38:37

and then Yeah, but so

38:39

you obviously got interested or learned a

38:41

lot because I mean as soon

38:43

as I Read your bio and your

38:45

background is like oh, yeah ballistic.

38:47

That's exactly how basketball players train Yeah,

38:49

it's all ballistic training and they

38:51

and their body show it knows you

38:53

know talking to Catherine on the

38:55

way over here like the difference between

38:58

a like a marathon runner or

39:00

even a triathlete and a sprinter Yeah,

39:02

right and the sprinters are just

39:04

like these really like tightly wound very

39:06

muscular explosive athletic Beasts

39:08

and long distance runners can be

39:10

kind of frail even. It's

39:13

one dimensional fitness. Anyways,

39:17

so, because you

39:19

didn't mention through this journalism

39:21

about your passion for training.

39:25

Those two intersect and somehow.

39:28

Yes, very much so. been

39:32

a runner in high school, cross country and track

39:35

and that kind of stuff. I did a bunch of

39:37

sports. I was on the ski team. I played

39:39

some soccer. I did all the, and I wasn't on

39:41

the basketball team because you had to pick basketball

39:43

or ski team, but I loved basketball. And I would

39:45

be sure to like take opportunities on playgrounds to

39:47

like wax those dudes. There's

39:50

a guy, there's some dudes out there that are

39:52

like, you know, but yeah, I played a lot

39:54

of basketball. Then

39:56

I got back into running

39:59

in my thirties. And

40:01

became one of the, you know, I was

40:03

forever training for the next like half marathon marathon

40:05

10k or the best was this relay. I

40:07

was part of these seven guys and we would

40:09

routinely win or close to winning this relay

40:11

across New Jersey where you finished at the ocean

40:13

and you know, I like to jump on

40:15

the ocean. Um, that was great.

40:17

Just being in the van with

40:19

the camaraderie and you support each other,

40:22

right? The only way legs or

40:24

how long were the legs? So everybody

40:26

does two legs that total. Mmm,

40:28

like 20 ish miles you're too like some endurance

40:30

really it's not like a sprint. Yeah, and then

40:32

there's a thing called the wild card Which is

40:34

used to be everybody hated this and when I

40:36

first did it I got the crappy assignment of

40:38

the wild card where it's two people Run 14

40:41

miles you just switch off as much as you

40:43

want. Oh, cool And I was like, I love

40:45

this. Let's just switch off like fast, right? Let's

40:47

do it fast Let's do that's run three quarters

40:49

of a mile or and there are the rules

40:51

about where the van can stop so you have

40:53

to kind of run to like Like

40:55

yeah, you kind of got to hang on

40:57

to have a totally stop. Yeah, but uh, but

40:59

I just the wildcard became my obsession It

41:02

was be 95 degrees and super hot and I'd

41:04

have some partner one year My sister was

41:06

my wildcard partner, but uh, and you're you and

41:08

that person are just like you're trying to

41:10

save each other's lives out there Like this person

41:12

is cooking. It's your second leg and your

41:14

core temperatures up, but you're like, I got you

41:16

You know what I mean? Like you're gonna

41:18

there's a traffic jam. So it's like, okay I'm

41:20

gonna hang out for a little longer if

41:22

I can and people are It's like the killing

41:25

fields out there during that thing. And I

41:27

developed a new running habit actually during that exact

41:29

leg where I'm steaming past this guy. Oh,

41:31

it's one of those things that's like a staggered

41:33

start, so the fast team start last. So

41:35

you're catching people all day, right? And

41:37

I get like, I'm

41:40

just the sunniest out there on the course.

41:42

I love everybody. I'm like, my

41:44

door friends are flowing, right? I'm just, I'm nice to everybody.

41:47

And so I'm gonna, but I want this guy

41:49

to know I'm there. The rest of the

41:51

time you're not nice to everybody. No, I think

41:53

I am, but like I've never, no part

41:55

of me is like, I ran faster than you,

41:57

like, oh, there's none of that, right? I'm

41:59

100 % just like, great job, right? And it's

42:01

open to traffic, though. There's no closed roads on

42:03

this thing. So you're a little, it's a

42:05

little bit dicey at times with like crossing streets

42:07

and stuff. So I want this guy, everyone

42:10

I'm passing on to know I'm there so they

42:12

don't like veer out and we all get

42:14

hit by cars. So there's a little dip. I

42:16

can just picture this perfectly. And there's a

42:18

guy who's feeling it. He's not

42:20

running fast anymore. And

42:22

I'm like smoking fast. And I'm

42:25

like, good job, buddy. And

42:27

I can just hear him behind me

42:29

go like, good job. Fuck

42:31

you. So

42:35

I have a new thing now is if I'm going

42:37

to pass him, but I just give him a give a

42:39

thumbs up. No one gets mad at

42:41

that. Just give him a thumbs up. OK.

42:45

Yeah. Yeah,

42:50

because people think it's psychological warfare. You're like,

42:52

no, really, I'm actually missing you. I'm just

42:54

full of love out there. I just am.

42:56

I'm like the sunniest, shattiest, loudest guy. Like,

42:58

I just, I think it's great. So I,

43:00

but I started having, well,

43:02

it turns out now I know in hindsight, I

43:04

was born with hip dysplasia and I did all

43:06

this running, all this training. And every decade or

43:08

so, I'd have like a back spasm or some

43:10

kind of like, you know, pain,

43:12

some hip thing. And I'd go to

43:15

PT and it wouldn't really work. What

43:17

is hip dysplasia? I

43:19

honestly only know it as like a dog term.

43:21

I know dogs are born with hip dysplasia. I

43:24

don't know. It's a malformity of your hips

43:26

in some way. But like I, the upshot of

43:28

it is that like every step that I

43:30

would run, you know, the force

43:33

of landing, this is a ballistic movement, right?

43:35

You're airborne, that's the definition. And then you

43:37

land and there's massive forces, even at a

43:39

jog. And that force is supposed

43:41

to go into your glutes, right? It's supposed

43:43

to flex your hips and then your glutes

43:45

absorb a ton of force. But.

43:47

A lot of us have oddities

43:49

where it doesn't happen that way. I

43:53

have... And just poor

43:55

form. Poor form. Yeah. And

43:57

so, you know, one of

44:00

the big research findings from this

44:02

book is, you know, if

44:04

they do an extensive biomechanical examination

44:06

of people who end up

44:08

with bad lumbar pain, like

44:10

NBA players who miss games

44:12

with lumbar pain and they don't

44:14

bend their hips when they

44:16

land. Interesting because they're the force that's

44:18

supposed to go into their glutes is just being

44:20

passed up and they'll lower back right and so like

44:23

my MRI it looks like I was in a

44:25

massive car crash like I've just like up

44:27

all you're supposed to like land in a little

44:29

bit of a shock absorber crouch, right? Yeah,

44:31

so do you know the the

44:33

physics thing where you drop the egg?

44:36

in physics class and you have to make a

44:38

contraption out of like pipe cleaners and duct

44:40

tape and rubber bands. So I didn't

44:42

actually do it either, but it's a

44:44

common thing. So they're just going to hand

44:47

out, everybody gets a raw egg, and

44:49

then they'll give you like construction paper and rubber

44:51

bands and plastic bags. You just have to like

44:53

design something so that the teacher can drop the

44:55

egg off top of a ladder, out the window,

44:57

and the egg will drift to the ground in

44:59

some way that it won't break, right? So

45:01

this is how I've come to think. After all this research

45:03

for this book, this is the

45:05

egg, your torso is the egg. And

45:07

the contraption to keep it from

45:09

breaking as it lands with every step

45:11

is the three stacked joints, ankles,

45:13

knees, hips. And it's beautiful.

45:16

It's a very good system. It's

45:18

the best in nature, but they have

45:20

to work the right way. They

45:22

have to be synchronous and inline and

45:24

strong, but they can attenuate tons

45:26

of force. And if you do it right, The

45:29

force is your friend, right? You can carry a

45:31

lot of force from one step to the next

45:33

because you're faster. Parkour. Yeah. It's unbelievable. Yeah,

45:35

yeah. What these guys can do. Yeah,

45:37

this is because they know how to use

45:39

that shock absorber and to displace the

45:41

energy and, you know, like the jump and

45:43

roll and, you know, it's crazy. I

45:45

think that variance in running is like some

45:47

runners carry 90 % of the force from

45:50

one step to the next and at

45:52

the other end of the spectrum, it's 40%.

45:54

Interesting. So like, you know. This is

45:56

the point of plyometrics. Where is that force

45:58

going? Oh, it's such

46:00

a great question. No joke. Like

46:02

one of the, if you're wearing a

46:04

squishy shoe, it heats up the shoe.

46:07

Like that's where the force is going. It's heating

46:09

the sole of your shoe. So you're paying extra

46:11

money for this heavy thing that you're going to

46:13

carry around. It doesn't do much to absorb force.

46:15

It's that tiny fraction of the force of you

46:17

landing. And then you're just like, I made a

46:19

little joke in the book that it's like a

46:21

Formula One car having a toaster oven, right? You're

46:23

just like, just grilling bagels in

46:25

the back with like wasting energy, right? Or

46:28

it's going in a

46:31

damaging place, right? So if

46:33

you're using springs, right?

46:35

Your achilles, your quads, your glutes,

46:37

these land, you're stretching those springs and

46:39

then they're going to spring you

46:41

forward, right? But if it's

46:43

going into your lower

46:45

back vertebrae, it's just... just

46:47

shock is building up

46:49

until something breaks. Yeah. As

46:54

a busy leader, you know that

46:56

performance, mental and physical can't be left

46:58

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47:00

you got to take care of your

47:03

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47:05

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47:07

one way to do that is to get

47:09

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47:11

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47:14

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47:20

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48:53

it's, it's unuseful there. So if you're carrying

48:55

40%, that means 60 % of the shock of

48:57

the force is being absorbed by your body or,

48:59

or your shoes. And this, you can tear

49:02

an ACL with that force being misplaced, right? I

49:04

think the, the way I've come to think

49:06

of it is kind of like, like if a

49:08

semi drives on a interstate, it doesn't damage

49:10

the interstate much, right? And like the interstate. for

49:12

the big forces of landing are like your

49:14

Achilles, your quads, your glutes, right? And

49:16

if you keep, you know, there's some biomechanics in

49:18

getting that right. If

49:20

you don't have that biomechanically sound, now

49:22

the semi is driving on the little

49:24

back roads, right? And this is where

49:26

your ligaments are, right? And like, you

49:28

know, one of the forces is, you

49:30

know, this tibia bone, if you land

49:33

with a lot of force, well, if

49:35

you land a very common thing happens,

49:37

toes down and then boom, your

49:39

heel comes down. That's a

49:41

bone. this bone is shoving the force

49:43

like a pool cue right up into

49:45

your knee, right? Right. Massive common

49:47

cause of knee injury in

49:49

their, you know, giant database at

49:51

P3. Like this is, you

49:53

know, that toes down smacking thing

49:55

is, well, they measured an NBA player

49:58

landing with 11 ,000 Newtons of force.

50:00

And I don't know what, I didn't know

50:02

before this book what that number means, but

50:04

I will tell you that I can show

50:07

you an academic study or actually a bunch

50:09

that to fully sever a human cadaver spine

50:11

only takes 3 ,000 newtons of force. Interesting.

50:13

Like the punch of a pro boxer,

50:15

100 newtons of force. This

50:17

guy's landing with 11 ,000 newtons of force,

50:19

which to me just tells us like, yeah,

50:21

you're counting on the contraption of your

50:24

three joints to like perform. Right. Right. It's

50:26

got a, these are your friends

50:28

and you want to treat them right.

50:30

Right. They're saving your life. Is your

50:32

book a sciency book or a training

50:34

book or like, what is it? So

50:37

I haven't read it by the way because I have

50:39

a copy. This is a difficult. Oh, you don't have

50:41

a copy. Can you take a second? Okay,

50:46

so it's Hard for me

50:48

to bake it succinct, but I'm

50:50

trying to get better at

50:52

this. So new science of injury

50:55

free athletic performance I think I just

50:57

answered my own question. So there's it.

50:59

So here's the deal this guy Marcus

51:01

Elliott tours ACL on the 17th birthday

51:03

football practice and He was like the

51:05

freest moving kid, kind of like your

51:07

childhood. He grew up on like 600

51:10

acres in Marin County, like

51:12

where his main supervision was from a dog. He was

51:14

jumping off cliffs and throwing rocks at things and

51:16

just like super wild, right? And

51:18

he loved it. He eventually found sports, loved

51:20

sports, thought he maybe would play, you know, college

51:22

football. And then he towards ACL.

51:24

And then he got depressed and was in

51:26

his bedroom for six months and he missed his

51:28

high school graduation. And oh my God, his.

51:30

The offense was designed to throw the ball to

51:32

him, and then his friend got that job

51:35

instead, and then his girlfriend left him for that

51:37

friend. Like,

51:39

bummer, right? It's

51:41

not good. That's not good. So, but

51:44

he's like, no, I think I'm gonna, you know,

51:46

my life plan is over, what I had,

51:48

but my new plan is I'm gonna try to

51:50

solve this so other people don't have to

51:52

go through what I'm going through. He's like, heart

51:54

attacks, we treat 10 years before the heart

51:56

attack now, right? We

51:58

didn't we used to just think it was

52:00

God striking you down, right? That's what that

52:02

was literally in the academic literature of like

52:04

200 years ago was like this man thought

52:07

evil thoughts coveted someone's wife Been struck down.

52:09

That's a heart attack, right? And then they

52:11

came up with the electrocardiogram and a cardiogram

52:13

and then they would see the arterial blood

52:15

flow slowing through the years and They realized

52:17

that you know in the years before the

52:19

crisis. Yeah, you can intervene with diet exercise

52:21

medicine And so Marcus wanted

52:23

to do that for ACL terrors and Achilles

52:25

terrors and all this kind of stuff. He

52:27

paid his way through Harvard Medical School. He

52:29

doesn't like me to tell this part, but

52:31

the fact the matter is he paid his

52:33

way by modeling. He's

52:36

a legitimate career. He's a very serious doctor,

52:38

and this is a very serious profession. He

52:40

feels like he's undermines it, but that's how

52:42

he pays away. And then

52:44

he worked for the New England Patriots and

52:46

the Seattle Mariners, and he's like... sports

52:48

scientist, then he started his own place called

52:50

P3 in Santa Barbara. And eventually they

52:52

came up with, and if you're

52:54

trying to put injuries, like, do you do

52:56

blood tests? Is it brain scans? Is it like,

52:59

what field do you even study? Is physiology? And

53:02

so he studied all this stuff. He went

53:04

all over the world, and eventually they came

53:06

up with force plates on the floor, these

53:09

markers all over your body, and infrared

53:11

cameras in the ceiling. And then they'd

53:13

have the best athletes in the world

53:15

do like a 40 minute rigorous movement

53:17

assessment. And they end up with like

53:19

a million data points per assessment. Then

53:21

all that goes into the servers where

53:23

they have 134 .4 terabytes of data. And

53:26

they can start doing relationships of like,

53:28

if it ends with an ACL tear,

53:31

what was it a year before? Right?

53:33

They have like, and try to

53:35

reverse engineer it. And it's now it's

53:37

getting like, they've been doing it. They

53:39

have this full data set for a

53:41

decade. of thousands of athletes. You add

53:43

AI to that, man. They got that

53:46

going. So now it's like big study

53:48

with like a, you know, most of

53:50

these studies in active journals are like

53:52

seven athletes scanned, but they have like

53:54

thousands. And so on

53:56

that ACL question, which is like a

53:58

real, it's maybe the most researched

54:00

injury. And they have a set of

54:02

factors that no one's ever heard of before. They're one

54:04

of the most common injuries for females, like

54:06

soccer players. 8x men, yeah. Eight times men.

54:08

Yeah. And so in the men, their database

54:10

that they study this particular one is NBA

54:12

players. So this one's all men. But 100

54:14

% of the people who ended up with

54:16

Torne ACL land on the outside of their

54:18

foot and have their weight roll to the

54:20

inside. Interesting. And so your shin is going

54:23

like a windshield wiper. Right. Which sets up

54:25

your knee in like a very bad way,

54:27

right? The next most

54:29

common factor is as you're squatting

54:31

to land, your upper

54:33

leg bone, your femur rotates

54:35

like this. Rotates internally

54:37

and if you think about that action, it's

54:40

kind of like taking the turkey drumstick off

54:42

the turkey right twisted off. It doesn't that's

54:44

your ACL, right? I

54:46

Could keep going but those things are

54:48

super trainable right this they call it translation

54:50

this thing the windshield wiper thing It's

54:52

about the musculature of your lower leg. You

54:54

can train it There are a million

54:56

different things I throw at it, but you

54:58

know that you can train you can

55:00

absolutely train it and this one You know

55:02

your femur has trochanters little notches with

55:04

muscles attached to them that keep us stable,

55:07

you can train it, right? You can, you can

55:09

stop that from rotating. And these are these

55:11

like factors - what taking notes by the way. It's

55:14

on the book. I've dislocated my knee twice. Oh.

55:18

Okay, sorry to hear that. No, that's okay.

55:21

In CrossFit, we used to talk

55:23

about dysfunctional movement patterns. Yeah. Who

55:25

doesn't have some dysfunctional movement pattern? No, it's

55:28

cool to have them. Yeah. It's cool. I

55:30

mean, they're all over the place. Yeah, yeah.

55:32

You know, I've - Probably like you, whenever

55:34

I see someone running, I analyze their gait.

55:36

It's a bad habit. I try not to,

55:38

but especially when I move my wife, like

55:40

I'm not looking. I'm

55:43

looking. I

55:46

know what you're doing.

55:49

Yeah. You

55:53

do. We

55:57

can talk about this. You can. -hmm

56:16

Wow, but you

56:18

do crossfit and

56:20

stuff right So

56:22

you still do

56:24

a little bit

56:26

behind you know

56:28

medium intensity, yeah

56:36

Yeah, well, I think so one of

56:38

the muscles that comes up a lot

56:40

is like kind of almost magical. It's

56:42

just like an under -appreciated muscle is the

56:44

soleus I don't know like this is

56:46

the I've never heard of this. I've

56:48

heard of the psoas, but that's that's

56:50

also Yeah, there's a whole chapter on

56:52

this Okay, so this is the gastroc

56:54

the like the calf muscles down here

56:56

the soleus is underneath it and it's

56:58

wide and It does a lot of

57:00

stuff including pump Blood back up you're

57:02

like which in NBA players is fascinatingly

57:04

important because they're very tall Yeah, and

57:06

so like when they have a foot

57:08

injury it's very far from their heart

57:10

And so that deals like it gets

57:12

less blood flow than most of us

57:14

right and so the soleus is like

57:16

interesting just for that But it's also

57:18

one of many but it's like they

57:20

may be a key one in what

57:22

you're talking about where you just want

57:24

to you know the all of the

57:26

causes of this thing I They spoke

57:28

frankly to me. They were much nicer

57:30

with the clients, but one of the

57:32

traders I was like What's causing this?

57:34

Why would this do this? And he's

57:36

like, it's just sloppy. And

57:40

basically, they have a pretty robust

57:42

program with little dowel hops and jumping

57:45

rope and a bunch of weight

57:47

things and stuff like where you stand

57:49

on one leg and then pass

57:51

a kettlebell back and forth. And there's

57:53

all these kind of training things

57:55

to just like really beef And so

57:57

it's just getting that neuroplastic, neuromuscular

57:59

reconditioning. Yeah. How long does it take

58:01

to recondition? Let's say you've had

58:04

a dysfunctional moving pattern like that for

58:06

10 years. So they're dealing

58:08

with the best athletes in the world. It's

58:10

almost all pro athletes in P3. So

58:12

they're a little bit accelerated. Yeah.

58:15

And they're training every day probably. They're training every

58:17

day. They go hard. But

58:19

it's, you know, they love to have you

58:21

in there for like seven weeks. Seven weeks, and

58:23

they can do it. But I think they'd

58:25

like to have you for 16, but what, no,

58:28

our athletes come in for 16 weeks, right?

58:30

They've got, they got to go do their appearance

58:32

in Japan, they got to go do stuff.

58:34

But, but yeah, they have a, right now is

58:36

the time of year when the NBA pre -draft

58:38

guys are there and they have this deal

58:40

with WME, William Morrison, Devers, all of their people

58:42

have exclusive thing to go train there. And

58:45

they're there for seven weeks. And it's pretty awesome

58:47

because they come in with a bunch of

58:49

issues and they leave like super humans, right? They're

58:51

like, It's

58:53

not just fixing something, it's making him

58:55

better. It's not just about injury prevention,

58:57

in other words. Because all of those

58:59

micro adjustments are gonna make him a

59:01

better athlete. Everybody

59:03

progresses differently, but the majority of them

59:05

will leave doing these like giant line

59:07

jumps they call it. So they'll like

59:09

put a row of tall boxes and

59:11

then you get your spring is so

59:13

good that you're just like boing, boing,

59:15

boing, like over that line, which is,

59:17

they won't let you do it if

59:19

you have bad ground contacts

59:21

or bad hips, right? If you're moving unstably

59:24

then, but if you can move like

59:26

that, then if your body's well -designed and

59:28

moving well to take that landing, it's awesome

59:30

training, right? For the reasons you're talking

59:32

about with the neurodevelopment to put these massive

59:34

forces, it's kind of like their secret

59:36

sauce, right? They're putting armor on you, so

59:38

you're ready to go drive the lane

59:41

in the NBA, get a little destabilized, and

59:43

then... you're still looking at the rim

59:45

stick a foot out in a really well

59:47

managed way and have a good landing

59:49

that won't destroy your career, right? And so

59:51

they're working on that they're drilling that

59:53

they're ready and you're ready for Really big

59:55

like car crash level impacts and it's

59:58

pretty fun to watch. It's pretty fun to

1:00:00

watch like they That's what they'll be

1:00:02

doing. They're probably not right now as we

1:00:04

speak Do you think that basketball players

1:00:06

are the best athletes in the world? They

1:00:09

say that I mean the NBA says

1:00:11

that all around in terms of their athleticism

1:00:13

So I've had this, so they have

1:00:16

data, right? And so I had, there's a

1:00:18

guy named Eric Lidersdorf who's the head

1:00:20

biomechanic guy there. He's amazing, super brilliant guy.

1:00:22

I went to Stanford in Columbia and

1:00:24

all of a, and he's like, look, you

1:00:26

know, in a way it's unanswerable because

1:00:28

if you put them in the 100 meters

1:00:30

or the Decathlon or whatever, they are

1:00:33

not trained for that. So we

1:00:35

can't know. He's like, but Every now and

1:00:37

again, a player comes through, Anthony Edwards

1:00:39

of the Timberwolves, and in his prime, Zach

1:00:41

Levine, who's now a Sacramento King, he's

1:00:43

like, I think Zach Levine could have won Olympic gold in the

1:00:45

high jump. He's like, and Anthony

1:00:47

Edwards maybe... a lot of things.

1:00:49

Anthony Edwards is like, he's

1:00:52

a pretty big, strong guy who

1:00:54

can fly. And they have, they

1:00:56

have a little chart of like lateral

1:00:58

explosiveness versus vertical explosiveness. And they have all

1:01:00

of the players they've ever scanned, like

1:01:02

a thousand NBA players on this little chart.

1:01:04

And Anthony Edwards is like up in

1:01:06

the very tippy top corner. He's like the

1:01:08

best at both, right? And that's not,

1:01:10

that's not normal. They

1:01:13

have a slow -mo video I can share

1:01:15

with you of Anthony Edwards just going through

1:01:17

like a a test where he runs up

1:01:19

and then like plants one foot and then

1:01:21

jumps as high as he can to like

1:01:23

swipe that. It's called the vertex, the little

1:01:26

device that measures your vertical. And

1:01:28

if you play it at like quarter speed

1:01:30

or eighth speed with a little dramatic music,

1:01:32

it looks like he's flying. Like he just

1:01:34

runs in and the frame is like set

1:01:36

for like you and me, you know? And

1:01:38

he just goes like, and at some point

1:01:40

like you just his legs are like dangling. Like

1:01:43

literally how high off the ground is

1:01:45

the bottom of his foot? I

1:01:47

don't know, but it looks like he's jumping

1:01:49

over me. You know, it does. Like I don't,

1:01:51

it just, at some point you just go,

1:01:53

like you stop being like a sports writer and

1:01:55

you start just being like a, yeah.

1:01:58

I just like, and then when he

1:02:00

lands, he's wearing the little sensors. He lands

1:02:02

so hard that like four or five

1:02:04

the sensors just go like, like off his

1:02:06

body and like shake across the floor.

1:02:08

And I just like, God

1:02:10

has spoken. I

1:02:12

guess just like, I don't know.

1:02:14

Good job, man. Nice job. No notes,

1:02:16

you know. That's awesome. Yeah. What,

1:02:19

two sides of this

1:02:21

question, what surprised you

1:02:23

about writing this book?

1:02:26

And then what was like the biggest

1:02:28

thing you learned, like the biggest

1:02:30

aha? Maybe that's the same question

1:02:32

actually. Yeah. I,

1:02:36

a lot of, this is my first book. And

1:02:38

that could be about the process of writing

1:02:41

the book or about what you learned. It's all

1:02:43

kind of rolled into one big ball for

1:02:45

me. So I wanted to write a book because

1:02:47

every other thing I wrote before and we're

1:02:49

writing my whole adult life had a deadline. And

1:02:51

I always felt like I couldn't quite go

1:02:53

all in. I couldn't quite do it the best

1:02:55

way. And so I wanted to

1:02:57

have a project where I just was like,

1:02:59

I literally spent days learning about owls. There's

1:03:01

quite a lot of wild animals in here

1:03:03

because they're such good movers. Owls?

1:03:07

Who would have thunk? This

1:03:09

is surprising years, but I always would have been

1:03:11

good athletes. Let's talk about ours for a

1:03:13

second. Okay. First of all, they don't build nests.

1:03:15

Okay. They steal them all or they just

1:03:17

have their babies on the ground and steal their

1:03:19

nests. They literally will take an Osprey's nest

1:03:21

and then they might, if the Osprey gives them

1:03:23

guff, they might kill and eat the Osprey,

1:03:25

which is bigger. Oh, they're total bad

1:03:28

asses like and And there's a little

1:03:30

BBC video of these owls in Arctic

1:03:32

had their babies on the ground. And

1:03:34

these wolves come along and are just

1:03:36

like, oh, the babies are pretty

1:03:38

big. It's like a decent meal. And you

1:03:40

can see the wolves and the parent owls

1:03:42

are like, oh, we got to deal with

1:03:44

these jerk -offs. And so the wolves are

1:03:46

talking over. And the parents just because they're

1:03:48

literally silent. They

1:03:50

have every other bird makes a little

1:03:52

sound as it flies, but owls have

1:03:55

some crazy feathering. And so the wolves

1:03:57

have no idea. And these parent owls

1:03:59

have really vicious talents and they just

1:04:01

go like this tack from behind. And you can

1:04:03

see the wolf was like, ah, come on, man,

1:04:05

don't do that. And the wolf kind of makes

1:04:07

one more attempt and like one more parent hits

1:04:09

it. It's like, all right, never mind. And they

1:04:11

just like jog off. Like, owls are ruling the

1:04:13

roost out there. So, and then, okay. To the

1:04:15

neuroplasticity thing, I realize I'm a little off target

1:04:17

here, but like. No, no, you got me on

1:04:19

that one. That's good. So. I'm

1:04:21

not thinking about owls. Like don't think about owls, not

1:04:23

thinking about owls. Owls are me either. So

1:04:26

they put, so owls,

1:04:29

Some mouths have eyes that are 30 % of the

1:04:31

weight of their head. They have these like giant, like

1:04:33

some of the best eyes in nature and like

1:04:35

really good nervous systems. And, you know, they can see

1:04:37

in the dark and they can hunt in the

1:04:39

dark. And then, you know, it's so hard to catch

1:04:41

a mouse on the run in the dark, right?

1:04:43

But this is what they do every day. So

1:04:45

I have some little things like their

1:04:47

ears are like offset and in the front

1:04:49

of their face so they can like

1:04:51

kind of echo locate differently. Anyway,

1:04:54

so. They

1:04:57

put prisms over the

1:04:59

eyes of juvenile owls to

1:05:01

see about neuroplasticity. So

1:05:04

they're depending totally on their

1:05:06

vision. And now it's

1:05:08

messed up. And it took them like

1:05:10

a few days before they could catch

1:05:12

a mouse again. That's it. That's it. Fascinating.

1:05:15

That's like you're encephalitis guy a little

1:05:17

bit. Like it's like, oh yeah, we'll

1:05:19

just do it a different way. Like

1:05:21

I love this. So yeah, anyway, that

1:05:23

we talked a lot about owls. I

1:05:25

did, I think. and that relates to

1:05:27

ballistic training. So because Oh,

1:05:31

that's right. Well, so now that

1:05:33

I'm fully in it, it almost feels I

1:05:35

love this. I feel like I'm putting... I'm on

1:05:37

drugs, right? I feel like you're on drugs

1:05:39

and I feel like I'm putting a puzzle piece

1:05:41

together. I'm not on drugs. coming together. For

1:05:43

the record. But when I was writing it, I

1:05:45

would spend three days with loud music. I

1:05:47

would be like, if someone had a house, I

1:05:50

could... over for a few days or just

1:05:52

like, I would go. I'd be alone because you

1:05:54

got to be alone to write basically. And

1:05:56

I'd have like loud music on and I'm just

1:05:58

like, whoa, owls. I'm really getting into it.

1:06:00

I'm getting kind of weird, you know? But

1:06:03

it is exactly how we're training, right? So

1:06:05

this is the way that the owl is

1:06:07

moving its neurons of its brain is exactly

1:06:09

what you have to do if you want

1:06:11

to change like how in the middle of

1:06:13

your crash. you're going to pivot and put

1:06:15

an ideal part of your back into the

1:06:18

tree instead of taking it on your head

1:06:20

and dying, right? Like this is

1:06:22

exactly like you learned an owl thing, right? And

1:06:25

so this is why ultimately all

1:06:27

of the training they do there,

1:06:29

they see it as neurological training,

1:06:31

right? There's a video, I talked

1:06:34

to of those wine zones. 100 % by the

1:06:36

way. Yeah. Like the ultimate video that they show.

1:06:38

I mean, it's really actually kind of cute.

1:06:40

NBA players are these big, strong guys, but they

1:06:42

just get so excited about what they learn

1:06:44

there. They're getting like a new owner's manual for

1:06:46

their bodies. That's cool. And there's a moment

1:06:48

where they're all crowded around the phone. And the

1:06:50

trainer guy is showing everybody something on the

1:06:52

phone. And they're all like, oh, oh,

1:06:54

they're like so fired up. And I'm like, what

1:06:56

are you showing them on the phone? And it's

1:06:58

this guy. His name is Sanford

1:07:00

Spivey and now he's a venture capitalist, but

1:07:02

that time he was a BU soccer player But

1:07:04

he grew up at this place you grew

1:07:06

up in Santa Barbara and he started training there

1:07:08

was 14 and he just learned how to

1:07:11

jump perfectly He just is there's no flaws. He

1:07:13

just has a perfect ability It looks like

1:07:15

a sand flea just like ding ding ding and

1:07:17

he jumps over these in slow motion this

1:07:19

line of boxes and Now the players are like

1:07:21

a month in they've learned a lot about

1:07:23

what goodbye mechanics look like and when they see

1:07:25

this guy they just It's perfect. It's perfect.

1:07:27

It's perfect. You can play it. I've tried it.

1:07:29

We played it at a conference recently. You

1:07:32

can play it for third graders. You can play

1:07:34

it for anybody and they're just like, how

1:07:36

is he doing this? Right? And, uh, yeah.

1:07:38

So that's, and that, that video as it's

1:07:40

posted online by P three is called neurological

1:07:42

training. That's what the video is called, right?

1:07:44

Cause that's what they see happening is this

1:07:47

moment that you land is way too fast

1:07:49

for you to consciously manage. You

1:07:51

got to, you got to have your

1:07:53

snappy systems together and it's almost like

1:07:55

dancing or Speaking French or being a

1:07:57

giant squid or an owl or these

1:07:59

other animals. I learned about you know,

1:08:01

like it's a It's a you got

1:08:03

to learn how to really move like

1:08:05

like in italics move Yeah, there's some

1:08:08

big cats in the book. Yeah. Yeah.

1:08:10

Yeah. Okay. There's another I got this

1:08:12

is the problem the answer your question

1:08:14

is 50 things, right? I learned so

1:08:16

many things I never got bored. I

1:08:18

could write I could start over today,

1:08:20

right? There's so many more things to

1:08:22

do. So all right This is a

1:08:24

true story James Harden as He's

1:08:27

the highest scorer in the NBA. And

1:08:29

the following year, he was going to

1:08:31

win MVP. And he comes in

1:08:33

for an assessment. And this guy, Eric, I mentioned earlier, has

1:08:36

a gym full of entourage. People

1:08:38

from the ad agency, people from the

1:08:40

sneaker company, all this stuff. And

1:08:42

he's promised them he's going to give them a little

1:08:45

preview of the results. They'll get the full results

1:08:47

in a couple of days. And

1:08:49

everybody's expecting good news, because he's a

1:08:51

great NBA player. But Eric's looking at

1:08:53

the screen, and he does not. jump

1:08:55

particularly high and he does not cut

1:08:57

particularly hard and he does not run

1:08:59

particularly fast like it's kind of a

1:09:01

bummer and there's like a party atmosphere

1:09:03

in the room and he's just got

1:09:05

this like bunch of people waiting for

1:09:07

him to report on how incredible James

1:09:09

is and he's not incredible except he

1:09:11

notices that he's really good at stopping

1:09:13

and in fact the way he plays

1:09:16

he does like like he will run

1:09:18

a couple steps toward the hoop and

1:09:20

then stop and then pull back and

1:09:22

he's like the best effort that basically

1:09:24

so he tells him that. This is

1:09:26

what he's like, hey, you know, you're really good at stopping. And

1:09:28

actually Adidas kind of liked that and they

1:09:31

integrated into promoting his shoe and became, it was

1:09:33

a thing in the Wall Street Journal for

1:09:35

a while, but they got excited about it. So,

1:09:37

but since then they were like, well, this

1:09:39

is like, we actually don't know why he's the

1:09:41

MVP. Like it's weird

1:09:43

that a guy who doesn't run that fast

1:09:45

or cut that hard would be MVP

1:09:47

when he only has this one thing. Like

1:09:49

maybe it matters more than we think.

1:09:51

So they started looking at other people who

1:09:53

moved like that at the same time.

1:09:56

a sort of overweight 17 year old visited

1:09:58

from Slovenia with his mom and got

1:10:00

tested. And he was like elite, like James

1:10:02

Harden is stopping. And like,

1:10:04

well, if this is an important thing, that kid

1:10:06

will be really good. And his name's Luca Doncic.

1:10:08

And now he's like the star of Lakers and

1:10:10

one of the best players in the world. And

1:10:13

then they started having a bunch of

1:10:15

other athletes and other sports would show up

1:10:17

with this quality. And I'm

1:10:19

going to tell you now, but it's

1:10:21

your big cat question. I think

1:10:24

I know a reason why it matters

1:10:26

more than we think, which is

1:10:28

there's slow -mo video of cheetah running

1:10:30

full speed and everything's a blur. The

1:10:32

background's a blur, the feet are

1:10:34

a blur, the hips are a blur,

1:10:36

the tail's a blur, but the

1:10:38

head is absolutely still. Because

1:10:41

it has to not just catch the

1:10:43

gazelle, it has to find this spot

1:10:45

that is going to bring it down.

1:10:47

Right? It has to see the gazelle.

1:10:49

Got one shot. The eyes need to

1:10:51

be like a marksman, right? And

1:10:54

I suspect that the stopping

1:10:56

biomechanical measurement is a marker

1:10:58

for holding your eyes still,

1:11:00

which is why James Harden

1:11:02

can see the rim, right?

1:11:05

He doesn't just ditch the guy. He's not

1:11:07

stopping and bouncing. see it. And

1:11:09

like, there's He holds his eye on the rim while

1:11:11

he's stopped or while he's stopping. Yeah, yeah, because

1:11:13

he has, you know, it's mostly posture, your chain stuff,

1:11:15

like you can... know, he can manage that system

1:11:17

really well so that his head can be useful, right?

1:11:20

Um, which is what the cheetah's doing as

1:11:22

it's playing, you know, the cheetah's sitting around

1:11:24

with a lot of force too, but not

1:11:26

shaking him around, you know, it's

1:11:28

interesting. Yeah. So anyway, I think that big cat,

1:11:30

I think your theory has some legs to

1:11:32

it, so to speak. We

1:11:35

should just stop it right there. We're

1:11:37

not going to top that. You

1:11:41

remind me this is a little

1:11:43

bit, um, related, but not. entirely,

1:11:45

but you mentioned the giant squid. Fascinating

1:11:48

animal, right? Totally. It's got

1:11:51

hugely well -developed eyes, but no

1:11:53

brain. Yeah, but the

1:11:55

nerve cables are like...

1:11:57

Yeah, but like... Who's

1:11:59

seeing? Yeah, yeah. Yeah,

1:12:01

this is you're in South Flight Sky.

1:12:03

Yeah, it's like, where's the brain that

1:12:05

is seeing through that eye? It's kind

1:12:07

of like... And check this out. So

1:12:09

this is gonna like sound a little

1:12:11

bit spiritual here. Yeah. Squids

1:12:14

operate at every depth of

1:12:16

the ocean and they're ubiquitous. Yeah,

1:12:18

there's billions of them. Yeah,

1:12:20

they all have this extremely well

1:12:22

-developed eye But like it's basic

1:12:25

nervous system that does have

1:12:27

no ability to process what they're

1:12:29

seeing. Yeah So maybe it's

1:12:31

like a closed -circuit system for

1:12:33

To observe the ocean for consciousness

1:12:35

go on say more I'll

1:12:40

stop right there because people are going to

1:12:42

their heads are already scrambling like what do

1:12:44

you mean? Well like ants know how to

1:12:46

make it the All that information is going

1:12:48

somewhere. Yeah. But it's not

1:12:50

going into the brain of that individual

1:12:52

squid. It's a collective consciousness to

1:12:54

observe the ocean. This is my thinking.

1:12:56

And who's observing? Good

1:12:59

question. They're like little like

1:13:01

security cameras. God. Yeah.

1:13:03

Consciousness, awareness. So. So

1:13:05

like a good mental yogi trick would be to

1:13:07

like tap into that and we'd be able

1:13:09

to see the ocean. Dude, get on it. What

1:13:11

are you doing? You're going to figure it

1:13:13

out. It's a little bit of training. I'm working

1:13:16

on it. You

1:13:18

can be the squid daddy. The squid daddy. Yeah,

1:13:23

I don't, okay. Ants

1:13:25

can make, or bees can

1:13:27

make a beehive. Not a single bee

1:13:29

has it. They have no idea what the

1:13:31

architecture, right? Everyone has a little impulse, but

1:13:33

together it makes the thing, right? I feel

1:13:35

like, you know, we're not designed that way.

1:13:38

Like we are the big brain creatures. So

1:13:40

I think we are. Right. But we have

1:13:42

been trained, that's been trained out of us.

1:13:44

Right. And it's one way to look at

1:13:46

it. In the animal world, we're at the

1:13:48

big brain end, right? So I

1:13:50

think maybe we are a little

1:13:52

biased in thinking that our own

1:13:54

internal processing is central, right? But

1:13:57

there seem to be like a lot

1:13:59

of animals are just like, No, they have

1:14:01

a little impulse and I follow the

1:14:03

impulse and marvelous things emerge, right? Like the

1:14:05

squid's amazing at evading the shark, right?

1:14:07

Really hard do. You must follow their impulse

1:14:09

and we get war and violence and

1:14:11

viral degradation. Yeah, yeah. Well,

1:14:17

and it's not humans, right? Think

1:14:20

about it. It's only a modern,

1:14:22

the modern variant. So maybe, maybe

1:14:24

there was something that. The modern

1:14:26

man got spun off evolutionary into

1:14:28

as kind of a negative direction

1:14:30

because, you know, all the natives

1:14:32

live in total harmony and with

1:14:35

that collective consciousness we're talking about.

1:14:37

They don't lose their individual sense

1:14:39

of individuality, but they also are

1:14:41

tapped into the universal so they

1:14:43

understand the unity consciousness. But

1:14:46

the white seemed like the white man has forgotten

1:14:48

that. Whereas, I don't know.

1:14:51

It's funny. It's gotta come back. a big

1:14:53

part of my teaching is that we've got

1:14:55

to get back, and I know Catherine's as

1:14:57

well, to where we merge

1:14:59

that kind of native with the

1:15:01

best of kind of the Western

1:15:03

approach, because it's not all bad,

1:15:06

but it's destructive when it's all

1:15:08

ego. So to bring that back,

1:15:10

the wisdom of the native cultures and even

1:15:12

the Eastern cultures, the Eastern cultures are much

1:15:14

more aligned with the native cultures. And

1:15:17

you'll find balance. It's like bringing the yin

1:15:19

and yang back into balance. We're very young. And

1:15:21

when you're all young, all do, all

1:15:23

action, then you get destruction because you

1:15:26

don't have the receptivity, the

1:15:28

regeneration, and the

1:15:30

respect that you're looking for. None

1:15:33

of this has anything to do with your

1:15:35

book or with sports, but it's probably in there

1:15:37

somewhere. You'd be surprised. It's more than you'd

1:15:39

think. It is kind of, again, I wrote the

1:15:41

books over, but it's kind of trippy. Like,

1:15:44

just the nature of the man

1:15:46

the book is about, Marcus, and these

1:15:48

topics, like, we're kind of

1:15:50

trying to be like squid, you know? And

1:15:53

there's a lot of selflessness in that. There's

1:15:55

a lot of, like, eagelessness,

1:15:57

right? It's just there's, you

1:15:59

know, we're looking to move

1:16:01

freely, right? And with joy.

1:16:04

And what's stopping that? Well, you know,

1:16:06

for modern people, a lot of times,

1:16:08

it's the stuff we're talking about. Disfunctional

1:16:10

movement, sedentary lifestyle. Yeah. Right not being

1:16:12

trained lack of wisdom or there's anxiety,

1:16:14

right? Like I think a lot of

1:16:16

people have I'm like, let me think

1:16:19

of a good example Well, actually like

1:16:21

one of the things they literally trained

1:16:23

there. I did it. I was bad

1:16:25

at this So they have a device

1:16:27

called an impulse box That they custom -built

1:16:29

and it's like 45 degrees of plywood

1:16:31

a little platform at the bottom plywood

1:16:34

and another 45 degrees And it's simple.

1:16:36

You just kind of you hop on

1:16:38

one leg in the middle with

1:16:40

like a barefoot or a socked foot, and

1:16:42

then you boom, kick the one over here, and

1:16:44

then that leg, and then you switch it,

1:16:46

and you just dance. You just go. Oh, wow.

1:16:48

There it is. And that would

1:16:50

take a little great practice, I

1:16:53

bet. And it's mimicking, like, sprinters all

1:16:55

know that, like, to run your

1:16:57

fastest, you have to relax. Right. You

1:16:59

cannot run your fastest. Like,

1:17:01

in the Olympic level, sprinters, like, if they put

1:17:03

a lot of effort in, slow day,

1:17:05

right? This is the device to

1:17:07

sort of... gets you feeling bouncy and

1:17:09

natural your feet. And so, and

1:17:12

you do it to oblivion. So you

1:17:14

just go like 10 seconds of acceleration

1:17:16

until you just lose it. And you're

1:17:18

going to keep practicing your new maximum,

1:17:20

right? And I was a little

1:17:22

short time. I think I had a plane to

1:17:24

catch that day, but I wanted to try it.

1:17:26

I never tried it. And Marcus is a little

1:17:28

taller than me. And he loves this thing. It's

1:17:30

like his baby. And so he does it. And

1:17:32

it's like, and he's older than me, you

1:17:35

know, you were not

1:17:37

used to seeing a man his age, his

1:17:39

feet just like, I mean,

1:17:41

it's just like, I couldn't even begin to

1:17:43

count how many beats per second. It was

1:17:45

like, he's just cruising on this thing. It's

1:17:47

awesome. And it's my turn. And

1:17:50

I'm like, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

1:17:52

And then Mark is just like, relax,

1:17:55

relax. And his face is like, why

1:17:58

wouldn't I be relaxed? But

1:18:02

it's the only thing, it has the only

1:18:04

thing in the gym. That gets better without

1:18:06

the music on because you just the way

1:18:08

that I got from totally crappy to like

1:18:10

sort of okay was you just think of

1:18:12

nothing but the sound of your feet just

1:18:14

going It's like it gets to be like

1:18:16

dancing, you know, it's it feels like you're

1:18:19

dancing but that kind of that's the training

1:18:21

That's the kind of stuff so anxious people

1:18:23

people who want to get an A on

1:18:25

every test people who are like eager beavers

1:18:27

They can't do this right if you're worried

1:18:29

about the outcome and how the world is

1:18:31

gonna see you You can't

1:18:33

do this right in the flow. Yeah, it's

1:18:36

got to be playful. It's got to be

1:18:38

relaxed. Yeah, let's jump in. It's also got

1:18:40

to be challenging. Yeah, right in

1:18:42

athletics. There's the risk there. It's

1:18:44

not risk of like we're talking about

1:18:46

with, you know, wing jumping or

1:18:48

snowmobiling at 80 miles an hour. Yeah,

1:18:50

but the risk of not meeting

1:18:52

not being your best. Yeah. Not meeting

1:18:54

your potential. Yeah, that's a risk

1:18:56

for pro athletes. They're vulnerable in there.

1:18:58

Yeah, they're vulnerable, but it's also

1:19:00

beautiful. Like there's this Korean volleyball player

1:19:03

who'd been, she was like the

1:19:05

Michael Jordan of Korean women's volleyball and

1:19:07

she was 34 I think and

1:19:09

had had four significant injuries and all

1:19:11

kind of coalesced and she just

1:19:13

like wasn't herself and hadn't played for

1:19:15

a while. And so she came

1:19:17

for I think seven, eight weeks and

1:19:20

With her particular set of targets and her

1:19:22

assessment, they just needed her to get much

1:19:24

more stable hips and stronger hamstrings, this kind

1:19:26

of stuff. So the trainer guy who's pretty

1:19:28

experienced, he took a risk and he was

1:19:30

like, before you leave here, you're gonna deadlift

1:19:33

100 kilograms. And she's like

1:19:35

6 '4". And she was like, no, that's crazy.

1:19:37

I've never deadlifted anything close to that. And he

1:19:39

was like, well, we're gonna work on it.

1:19:41

And I happened to be there for her last

1:19:43

day and she's got a flight back to

1:19:45

Korea that night. There's,

1:19:48

I don't know, six, seven NBA players

1:19:50

in there and like a Stanford volleyball

1:19:52

player or whatever. And now it's time.

1:19:54

And she does a test with 90

1:19:56

kilograms with the trap bar. And she

1:19:58

does it. It's okay. And then

1:20:00

she pulls on the hundred and

1:20:02

her strain, she's just kind of dignified,

1:20:04

like lean muscle athlete, right? And she strains

1:20:06

on it and he's like, oh, you know, get

1:20:08

your hip down up. And so she kind

1:20:10

of resets. And then just like, it's just not

1:20:12

clear. She's going to do it. She's just

1:20:14

slow, like way slower than think she's just. He

1:20:18

just stands it up and then the whole

1:20:20

place everybody in the place You know the

1:20:22

people who didn't think we're watching the guy

1:20:24

behind the desk the people on the couches

1:20:26

like This guy Greg Brown is like a

1:20:28

borderline NBA player. He runs across the gym

1:20:30

You know, he's like this six seven guy

1:20:32

just to give her a giant hug right

1:20:34

everyone's just losing it and then it's time

1:20:36

for her to go and she and And

1:20:39

there's a great little moment where this guy's

1:20:41

been training her for seven weeks and and

1:20:43

he's like he's like, um, he's

1:20:45

like he's like It's

1:20:47

like wait a second like you don't cry and

1:20:49

she's like she's got a little tear and she's

1:20:51

like she's like women don't cry John She doesn't

1:20:53

speak a lot of English, but she had that

1:20:55

you know And she kind of goes around and

1:20:57

don't cry yeah off she goes and she had

1:21:00

a killer year I follow her online that you're

1:21:02

she had a she I think she was MVP

1:21:04

of the league that year. No kidding. Yeah, it's

1:21:06

pretty awesome 34. Yeah. Yeah, pretty great This

1:21:09

a fantastic conversation. I

1:21:11

took it to some weird places, I

1:21:13

feel. No, thank you. I appreciate that. I

1:21:17

was a co -conspirator. True. That's

1:21:19

true. That's true. Yeah. Man. The

1:21:21

book is out. The book is

1:21:24

called Blistic Attack May 6th. I

1:21:26

don't know. what the best ways to order it. But

1:21:28

I know if you go to, my name's Henry Abbott. If

1:21:30

you go to Henry Abbott .com, there's like, you

1:21:32

can click a button to get it from your local

1:21:34

bookstore or from wherever your favorite place to get is.

1:21:36

There's a bunch of, there's all the vendors on there.

1:21:39

But I think it's like, this

1:21:42

is a really hard thing for me

1:21:44

to explain, but like, like people who have

1:21:46

read it, and I'm sorry you didn't

1:21:48

get a copy, like are having a weird

1:21:50

experience where they're. If you like to

1:21:52

do in psychedelics. Well, I mean,

1:21:54

this example, my father -in -law's been making

1:21:56

fun of me for going to all

1:21:58

these crazy workouts and outdoor I've been

1:22:00

doing forever. I've known the guy since

1:22:02

I was in college. And

1:22:04

he always thought that was kind of

1:22:06

tough. He read Earl Jeffer's book and

1:22:08

he's working out every day. He's

1:22:10

going, now he feels like his body is

1:22:12

a well -designed machine that can do incredible

1:22:14

things. And he never thought that before. And

1:22:17

if you look, I guarantee, anywhere online

1:22:19

where there are reviews of this book

1:22:21

right now, you'll see Jeff Goodwin. He's

1:22:24

in there hammering away with like, this book

1:22:26

changed my life. I really like, like, people are

1:22:28

having this kind of big, it's

1:22:30

a very, like, this is

1:22:32

not me, all right? So these people,

1:22:34

these geniuses have been, in my mind, cooking

1:22:36

up a big pot of stew for

1:22:38

like 35 years of research or going into

1:22:40

like... doing it quietly doing it quietly.

1:22:42

I'm the ladle I just came in that

1:22:45

took a scoop and I'm ladling it

1:22:47

out You know and everyone's like this too

1:22:49

is amazing, right? And like it's not

1:22:51

a this whole project has been wildly authentic,

1:22:53

right Marcus's work and my work and

1:22:55

our friendship is like Nobody's trying to make

1:22:57

a buck here. We're just like fourth

1:22:59

leading cause of death is immobility. Everybody's in

1:23:01

pain like They probably can't

1:23:03

take any more clients. They're

1:23:05

literally, they don't have a product to sell you.

1:23:08

Like, like they, they, let's say they have

1:23:10

their main business is P3, which is basically invitation

1:23:12

only athletes. And then they have a side

1:23:14

business called the lab. And yeah, if you're local

1:23:16

in Santa Barbara, you can go see them.

1:23:18

I recommend it. It's great. But like, they don't,

1:23:20

they're not selling you. They don't have like

1:23:22

a drink. They don't have a bar.

1:23:24

Like there's nothing for them to sell

1:23:26

you, right? They're just trying, his parents are

1:23:28

both artists and he like thought that. He

1:23:30

was raised that business is suspicious and he

1:23:33

just wanted to create beautiful things. He's just

1:23:35

trying to create this better understanding of

1:23:37

the human body. God, I love that. Yeah,

1:23:39

that's all he wants. He just wants us

1:23:41

to move better. And he's got

1:23:43

a great lifestyle. He's passionate about what he does. He

1:23:46

doesn't need to scale it and franchise it.

1:23:48

Exactly. I love that. We

1:23:50

need more of that. What's next

1:23:52

for you? I really like

1:23:54

this book writing thing. You do? Yeah, I

1:23:56

really do. We're

1:23:58

working on, actually, there's a docu

1:24:01

series in discussion out of this,

1:24:03

so I'm participating in that as

1:24:05

much as they want me. Of

1:24:07

course. But yeah, this dive

1:24:09

in deeply on the rabbit hole, I

1:24:11

got some conversations going about what's next,

1:24:13

but I'd have to get through the

1:24:15

next few months of getting this baby

1:24:17

born. Yeah, that's right. You're not done

1:24:20

until she's out of the nest. Yeah,

1:24:22

but my wife will tell you this.

1:24:24

She's like, oh, what a shocker. Henry

1:24:26

really enjoys going down the deep down

1:24:28

the rabbit hole of a book project.

1:24:30

Like who knew? Give yourself like a

1:24:32

six month break. I don't

1:24:34

think I'm going to do that. I think I'm going to,

1:24:36

you know, I'm the guy who looks at the ocean wants

1:24:38

to jump in. Like I'm looking at the ocean in my

1:24:40

next project. You might follow the wrong strand. Yeah.

1:24:44

Give yourself some time. The dust has settled

1:24:46

and then time for that next thing to emerge

1:24:48

that says this is what has to be

1:24:50

done, not just something I'm interested in. No, I

1:24:52

think you're exactly right. But in

1:24:54

fact, I've been done writing this for six

1:24:56

months already, because it takes forever to

1:24:58

print and whatever. So like, I've been, I

1:25:01

could tell you right now, but I would ruin

1:25:03

it. I do feel like I

1:25:05

kind of have what I want to do next.

1:25:08

But it's basically this for the brain, basically is

1:25:10

what I think. That's what I do. I'll

1:25:13

think of something else. Now

1:25:18

you do that. You got the right, you know, you got to do

1:25:20

your squid daddy thing. You're going to be busy. Yeah.

1:25:23

I think that ship has sailed for

1:25:25

me. Henry,

1:25:28

man, this has been awesome. I appreciate you coming here

1:25:30

in person and great conversation. No, I love it.

1:25:32

Thank you, Mark. Good luck with the book. It's going

1:25:34

to be awesome. Ballistic. What's

1:25:37

the tagline again? Here we go. The

1:25:40

new science of injury -free athletic

1:25:42

performance. Great title. Ballistic. Henry

1:25:45

had Henry Abbott calm Henry Abbott calm

1:25:47

is where I'm putting all the like

1:25:49

that's right all the links all the

1:25:51

stuff Somebody says something really nice about

1:25:53

my book. I'll put it on there,

1:25:55

too This show will be on there

1:25:57

when it comes on. Yeah And have

1:25:59

it as two B's a B B

1:26:01

OTT if you're driving Henry Abbott. Yeah,

1:26:03

people don't want to give you that

1:26:05

last tee They're like I can imagine

1:26:07

that's easy to drop that off Yeah,

1:26:09

I would have probably but then it

1:26:11

would be Henry a bot. Yeah

1:26:13

It's not, it's not like me and I'm not insulted

1:26:15

by it, but it's not going to get to the

1:26:17

right website, you know. Man,

1:26:22

that was a fascinating conversation with

1:26:24

Henry Abbott. Henry, thanks so much

1:26:26

for joining me here live in

1:26:28

studio in Encinitas, California. Show

1:26:30

notes will be up on markdevine .com,

1:26:32

a YouTube channel, a video behind

1:26:34

the YouTube channel. So check it out.

1:26:37

And if you're not on a newsletter where the

1:26:39

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1:26:41

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1:26:43

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1:27:03

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1:27:05

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1:27:07

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1:27:09

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1:27:11

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1:27:13

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1:27:15

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1:27:17

So yeah, to that, thanks to

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1:27:22

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1:27:24

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1:27:42

I appreciate you for being part of

1:27:44

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1:27:52

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1:27:54

We can be the change that we want

1:27:56

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1:27:58

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1:28:00

and doing this at scale together. Together,

1:28:03

everyone achieves more. and it's It's what it's all about. The

1:28:05

team is a new leader, so thanks for being on the

1:28:07

team. Till next time, this

1:28:09

is Mark Devon. Who y

1:28:11

'all are? Hi,

1:28:23

I'm Chris Gathard, and I'm very excited to tell

1:28:25

you about beautiful and honest. A podcast where I

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talk to random people on the phone. I

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tweet out a phone number. Thousands of people try

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survive shootings. Crazy funny ones. I I to

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1:28:48

I never know what's gonna happen. It's a

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