0:00

Hello and welcome to the Media Club.

0:02

I'm your host Matt Degan in

0:04

the club today. Will Google's AI

0:06

mode destroy the news media and

0:08

has YouTube set its sights on

0:10

the TV industry, writer and telecritic

0:12

Scott Bryan's here. tell us our

0:14

pair and company alphabet still reshaping

0:16

the media landscape across the world.

0:18

Also on the program the world

0:20

service needs government funding, argues BBC

0:22

bosses, but can they match the

0:24

scale of China and Russia's operations?

0:26

For as Osman Head of Indie

0:28

Gold Waller tells us more. And all that

0:31

plus Channel 5 gets a rebrand, again, and

0:33

in the media quiz we're sprinkling some star

0:35

dust. That's all to come in this edition

0:37

of the media club. Come on in. So,

0:46

welcome back to the Media Club. Hello,

0:49

Scott. Hello, guys. I'm very good, thank

0:51

you. Your credits are from broadcast to

0:53

Variety, from New York Times to The

0:55

Guardian, but who's your pick of the

0:58

week this week to join us in

1:00

the club? Well, I have selected, if

1:02

this is okay. Everyone always does this.

1:04

I know. We love a caveat. We

1:06

love the way around things. An organisation

1:09

or a set of people. Okay. Lagna.

1:11

the lesbian and gay news media archive

1:13

because I am researching a book at

1:15

the moment and I stumbled across this

1:18

great place called the Bishops Gate

1:20

Institute and they have the UK's

1:22

first and I think only LGBTQ

1:24

Plus archive and they have literally

1:26

everything but then they also have

1:28

Lagna and what it does is

1:30

that it's a set of people

1:32

who I think back in the

1:34

1980s 1970s decided to keep clippings

1:36

of every single time LGBTQ Plus

1:38

people were mentioned in the press.

1:41

Of course this was at a

1:43

time of severe homophobia on a

1:45

daily basis. and they literally have

1:47

organized it meticulously in these folders that

1:49

stretch from one side of the room

1:51

to another. So I say to them,

1:53

oh I really want to find out

1:55

about how the press reacted to Eastenders

1:57

when they was the first gay male

1:59

kiss. the library having comes along

2:01

and just gives you every single one

2:03

of them. Now, don't get me wrong,

2:05

incredibly depressing read, but incredibly important for

2:08

our collective history and these are just

2:10

done by volunteers back then. So I

2:12

think, you know, final point to add,

2:14

none of this stuff exists on the

2:16

internet, really. So I think it's really

2:18

important for our collective history and for

2:20

our collective media history, even the ugly

2:22

sides of it. Well they can definitely

2:25

all join group membership and also joining

2:27

us in the chief for us. Osman,

2:29

who's had a good media week this

2:31

week? I was going to suggest

2:33

Jonathan Dimbleby. and I'm probably going

2:35

to say for reasons that your

2:37

listeners can look up themselves.

2:40

It's actually not been the greatest week

2:42

when it comes to certain controversies shall

2:44

we say and it's kind of come

2:46

to a head with a decision that

2:49

the RTS took a couple of weeks

2:51

ago which is frustrated and shall we

2:53

say angered a lot of people, Jonathan

2:55

Dimbleby being one of them, and I

2:57

think kind of seeing his name lend

3:00

to the chorus of disapproval about what

3:02

the artists have done, was quite encouraging

3:04

because we need more people like that

3:06

to stand up for the right thing.

3:09

Well of course you can join. So

3:11

first up this week Google's launched an

3:13

AI mode for search in the US

3:15

and it's already causing issues for news

3:17

media summarising stories without any click through

3:19

data and ad revenue attached. Scott why

3:21

are they signed to do this? I

3:23

mean essentially it's just because I think

3:25

the way that we are consuming stuff

3:27

online has changed. I mean AI of

3:29

course has been the hot topic but

3:31

a lot of it is down to

3:34

chat bots in the way that we

3:36

interact, same questions and I think Google...

3:38

Which were I think still off course

3:40

in terms of search like a huge dominant

3:42

player I think are now in a situation

3:44

where they've realized that they have to do

3:47

a bit of catch-up I think just because

3:49

a lot of people are excited by chat

3:51

gBT I mean there are other rivals I've

3:53

got about four of them on my phone

3:56

they barely use but of course those chat

3:58

bots rely on information scoured across the internet,

4:00

there's been a bit of a

4:02

towing on throwing, some threatening of court

4:04

cases in regards to where the

4:06

information is sourced from, whether people have

4:08

been giving credit. I think the

4:10

Guardian signed a deal with OpenAI in

4:12

regards to using their data, but

4:14

then that raises questions about who profits

4:16

from that exactly. This is Google

4:19

essentially now using that information that they

4:21

have from publishers, but not necessarily

4:23

providing any money or resources for it,

4:25

because understandably, in a long running

4:27

battle in regards to money and whether

4:29

the right people are getting enough

4:31

money, I think it's certainly, for the

4:33

time at least, you know, creating

4:35

quite a lot of heat. Yes, because

4:37

this is the only way to

4:39

opt out of Google's AI is to

4:41

sort of come out of Google's

4:43

search. Well, that's brilliant for everybody. Congratulations.

4:45

I mean, honestly, I mean, I

4:47

think that the way that this has

4:49

always been is that Google makes

4:51

a sort of bold claim or a

4:54

big plan. The media rightly has

4:56

a giant go at it. Then there's

4:58

going to be a bit of

5:00

towing and throwing. I think, from my

5:02

understanding, I mean, for my sense,

5:04

this is just the early stage in

5:06

which, like, this is what Google

5:08

says that their intention to be. The

5:10

news media will rightly sort of

5:12

fight back and say absolutely not. Then

5:14

there'll be some concessions given, whether

5:16

that's, you know, certain amount of money

5:18

or the continuing things that there's

5:20

always been in regards to Google having

5:22

this sort of information in the

5:24

first place. And then that will continue.

5:26

I just sort of sense that

5:29

just the battle lines are being drawn

5:31

when it comes to open AI

5:33

with different media organisations having some sort

5:35

of different relationship. It doesn't seem

5:37

to be universal about how they're going

5:39

to be sort of heading back

5:41

with these sort of players. You write

5:43

for lots of different titles. Do

5:45

you think, hey, I've been paid by

5:47

variety on New York Times up

5:49

to then what they do with it

5:51

afterwards? It's a good question because,

5:53

I mean, I'm not really thinking in

5:55

the way, I mean, with most

5:57

places I get, I just get a

5:59

flat fee. You know, there's never

6:01

really been some... of long-term contributions. And I think I would

6:04

be frustrated if I realized that, for example,

6:06

an article that I went on was

6:08

to make a film, for example. And

6:10

I feel different if I had a

6:12

book out, because that is sort of

6:14

cutting the publisher out, if that makes

6:16

sense. So I haven't really got an

6:18

opinion on that per se. I think

6:21

it's just down to the fact that,

6:23

as speaking on behalf of a lot

6:25

of people who have been freelancing, rates

6:27

are... have been stable for a very

6:29

very very long time and it's a

6:32

lot harder now to get the same

6:34

amount of work done for the same

6:36

rate than it's always been and I

6:38

think that is the real issue is

6:40

the lack of availability of work in

6:43

the first place. Is there a fact

6:45

that they're getting more money for sort

6:47

of for your work that I can

6:49

push the rates up maybe that's a

6:51

good thing? Possibly, yeah. AI is how

6:53

young people sort of search and they

6:56

like what's at the top of Google.

6:58

Is that enough of a reason for

7:00

Google just to sort of roll this

7:02

out? It's driven by consumers? Well listen,

7:04

I think the point of AI and

7:06

large language models is natural language. I

7:08

think we're seeing a move away from

7:10

having to learn how to search Google

7:12

and more that Google and all of

7:14

these kind of AI tools are learning

7:17

how natural language works and processing that

7:19

to get the information through. So it

7:21

kind of feels like a normal... evolution

7:23

of how search works and I think

7:25

that we will see this become the

7:27

norm. I mean I think gone are

7:29

the days where you kind of have

7:31

to work out the certain codes and

7:33

the way that you need to type

7:35

things to get certain results and that

7:37

hard work will be done by these

7:39

AI platforms and that's just going to

7:41

be the language that the next generation

7:43

of online users are going to use

7:45

to navigate the web. I think that

7:47

my concern with this is what Google

7:49

seems to be trying to do is keep people

7:51

on their page and I want to use the

7:53

word trapped because that sounds quite negative but it's

7:55

you know this is all about the idea of

7:57

people feeling like the traffic is not going to their

7:59

web. website, even though the information is

8:01

coming from their website. And I think

8:03

that that is actually quite a dangerous

8:05

precedent because obviously Google is a is

8:07

a. add funded model and so they

8:10

want to keep as many people on

8:12

their platform as possible for as long

8:14

as possible and if they are going

8:16

to simply scrape other people's work and

8:18

put that on their own page and

8:20

then not send people to those websites

8:22

which is what they used to do

8:24

then we do have a problem because

8:26

it just means that all eyeballs are

8:28

going to stay within these within Google

8:30

or chat gPT or whatever it might

8:32

be and chat gPT have had similar

8:34

controversies open AI. are and you can

8:36

then go and link out to those

8:39

sources if you want to. But the

8:41

reality is that once you get your

8:43

answer, you're kind of done. And I

8:45

think that we do need to start

8:47

figuring out a plan of how we

8:49

can make sure that the web is

8:51

sustainable because the reality is is that

8:53

yes, they're doing it algorithmically and yes,

8:55

they're doing it via... using generative tools,

8:57

but the actual new original work is

8:59

sitting on these websites and Google don't

9:01

make that original work and open AI

9:03

art making that original work. So if

9:05

we want to continue seeing the great

9:08

work that Scott does and the work

9:10

that me and my colleagues do, out

9:12

there, we need to make sure we

9:14

continue to encourage people to write the

9:16

original material and this feels like it

9:18

may not be doing that in the

9:20

long term. I was interesting, everyone sort

9:22

of, all the big tech co's super

9:24

successful tech companies have, they've got to

9:26

sort of pivot to AI, they need

9:28

AI products. I was really actually just

9:30

today, John Gruber who writes a lot

9:32

about Apple and his blog daring fireball.

9:34

I was talking about Apple's, Apple's, Apple's,

9:37

Apple's, Apple's, Apple's, Apple intelligence, which they've

9:39

sort of pulled back. I made announcements

9:41

saying all the things we said were

9:43

coming are going to come a lot

9:45

later, going to appear. They're all chat,

9:47

they've got to keep delivering. I know,

9:49

but I think it comes down to

9:51

also, around not just the ethics, but

9:53

also just whether it works. I had

9:55

to look at my phone there, because

9:57

just was, you were both talking, my

9:59

Apple intelligence just. to go. So I

10:01

had to turn my phone completely off.

10:03

So, you know, is that classic a

10:05

case of like... I think like was

10:08

it three or four years ago everyone

10:10

was making a big fuss about how

10:12

home speakers were going to be the

10:14

future of all communication and that you'll

10:16

be able to use and turn your

10:18

lights on and off and then it

10:20

just sort of quickly came and went

10:22

to them we all went on to

10:24

the next fan. Don't get me wrong

10:26

I think AI has a huge role

10:28

and at times terrifying role to play

10:30

in shaping our creative future but there's

10:32

also a lot of hype and I

10:34

think I really wonder about how will

10:37

it actually influence our lives. Well meanwhile

10:39

Google sister company YouTube has been quietly

10:41

building it streaming based on TV with

10:43

the introduction of podcasts leading to much

10:45

longer form content on the platform and

10:47

Scott this week they launched a new

10:49

up front focused on their top creators

10:51

yes what's the spotter showcase so it's

10:53

a terrible name he is a terrible

10:55

name I mean it essentially is attracting

10:57

quite a lot of their big creators

10:59

such as Mr Beast who of course

11:01

has done work with Amazon Prime Video,

11:03

you know the most expensive TV show

11:06

of all time in my view also

11:08

arguably with some of the worst. Money

11:10

doesn't solve all your problems. It really

11:12

doesn't know and it's it's about having

11:14

creators match with different programs formats and

11:16

ideas because it seems to be particularly

11:18

with young people. I mean there's been

11:20

this massive growth of YouTube which is

11:22

20 years old and I've got a

11:24

piece coming out on broadcast a feature

11:26

later on this month and I think

11:28

what is remarkable is how YouTube is

11:30

now the go-to place for young people

11:32

not just in terms of watching short-form

11:35

content but also long-form content and now

11:37

broadcasters and now starting to put a

11:39

lot of their shows. on to that

11:41

platform. So if you go on to

11:43

channel 4, you will now see episodes

11:45

of Gogelbox and all of their police

11:47

cuss to these shows. ITV now puts

11:49

on, well I think they've got plans

11:51

to put on Celebrity Big Brother and

11:53

have got a look. Love Island on

11:55

there. And interestingly, they say that that

11:57

does not cannibalize their own streaming services

11:59

because they think that the people who

12:01

are on that platform compared to their

12:04

own are fundamentally different audiences. So I

12:06

think it's this sort of idea, particularly

12:08

that in the US mobile viewing has

12:10

been replaced by home. viewing, I mean

12:12

essentially because the connection is a lot

12:14

better and that viewers are sticking around

12:16

for a lot longer. But of course

12:18

that raises a lot of questions for

12:20

the BBC, public service broadcasters, thinking that

12:22

then now that they're relying much more

12:24

on a third party Google who have

12:26

an algorithm. and also will obviously take

12:28

a cut for future business. And I

12:30

think it's that kind of ecosystem will

12:32

certainly exist where, you know, people will

12:35

go to their own place, people will

12:37

go to YouTube and third parties. But,

12:39

you know, they've now got another big

12:41

player in the room and this player

12:43

happens to sort of be a real

12:45

big influence. For us, do you think

12:47

Netflix and Disney should be worried about

12:49

the amount of YouTube people watching on

12:51

their TVs at home? So look, I

12:53

think that the push to the big

12:55

screen, shall we say, for YouTube is

12:57

a really interesting one and I think

12:59

it does make sense for the business.

13:01

What I'm quite curious about though is

13:04

how that's going to work for ads.

13:06

And I think one of the reasons

13:08

why YouTube are doing this is because

13:10

actually it's quite, it's a lot harder

13:12

to put ad blockers on... on the

13:14

big screen on your TV. I don't

13:16

know anybody that knows how to install

13:18

an ad blocker onto their TV. Whereas

13:20

I think actually there's been, again, particularly

13:22

for younger people, they all have ad

13:24

blockers on their browsers and Google is

13:26

cracking down on it via their chromium

13:28

engine and their chrome browser and making

13:30

it harder for ad blockers to be

13:33

installed. But we have still got a

13:35

lot of people who do watch YouTube

13:37

without seeing the ads because they've managed

13:39

to use a system where they can

13:41

skip the ads. TVs. What I think

13:43

is curious about that is we've also

13:45

got services like Netflix and Disney Plus

13:47

and Amazon who are leaning more into

13:49

an ad-based model and they are kind

13:51

of offering subscription services where they are

13:53

subsidised by ads and I actually think

13:55

that it is advantageous for those platforms

13:57

to move away from being funded by

13:59

subscribers and actually being funded by ad

14:02

revenue because it seems to be more

14:04

lucrative for the bottom line. What that

14:06

means, I think, and this is me

14:08

looking for optimism in the British market,

14:10

is that the BBC actually becomes a

14:12

lot more attractive as a completely ad-free

14:14

service. And I do wonder if we'll

14:16

start seeing a swing back to I

14:18

player where people just simply get sick

14:20

of looking at... three-minute ad pre-rolls and

14:22

they go you know what if I

14:24

go to I play or I press

14:26

play I will see my content straight

14:28

away and we may actually see a

14:30

swing back to kind of more traditional

14:33

media viewing for that very reason because

14:35

at the moment I don't think it's

14:37

the greatest of experiences. I mean I

14:39

guess for us to push back to

14:41

that is a lot of young people

14:43

are consuming their content on YouTube that

14:45

they're not going anywhere near I player

14:47

and they're not even aware of what's

14:49

there and when they see shouldn't the

14:51

BBC do something similar? But potentially, but

14:53

I do think that we at our

14:55

peril misunderstand how ads interrupt the viewing

14:57

experience and also misunderstand how actually younger

14:59

people or people that are a bit

15:02

more tech savvy have found ways to

15:04

skip past those ads. And I don't

15:06

think you can do it as easily

15:08

on your TV. So if we are

15:10

moving towards that big screen model, there

15:12

is a risk that we'll kind of

15:14

expose the reality of what the YouTube

15:16

platform is and the fact that it

15:18

is flooded with ads. And if that

15:20

is the case... Are people that are

15:22

really excited about the content that they'd

15:24

be watching on their computers and through

15:26

their browsers? Are they going to be

15:28

as comfortable moving to a platform that

15:31

they don't have as much control over?

15:33

And will they tolerate that level of

15:35

advertising when they want to watch their

15:37

content? I was looking at some of

15:39

the stats for this this podcast on

15:41

YouTube and some of the podcasts that

15:43

we work with. There's a lot of

15:45

people who watch. So I was looking

15:47

at the the amount average minutes consumed

15:49

of episodes and obviously on the TV

15:51

people consume far more than they do

15:53

on a mobile or on or on

15:55

desktop. Doesn't they sort of break down

15:57

the sort of successful barriers that the

16:00

ITVs of the world have created and

16:02

actually content creators can go direct to

16:04

the audience and YouTube does enable all

16:06

this now. I mean I think YouTube

16:08

has always been a strong place for

16:10

the creator community and I think what

16:12

indies are found as well is that

16:14

they get to kind of bypass the

16:16

broadcasters use a lot of their existing

16:18

IP sort of content maybe best of

16:20

montages that they can go and showcase

16:22

and one thing that I've been having

16:24

conversations with are indies who say look

16:26

we get so much more data than

16:28

what we would normally can eventually get

16:31

with broadcasters. So I think that there

16:33

is this, certainly an opportunity from all

16:35

forms in terms of storytelling, you know,

16:37

you're not so constrained against a whole

16:39

hour, but there are challenges too, you

16:41

know, around algorithms, you know, you are

16:43

at the behest or maybe a thumbnail

16:45

or having people who, you're relying upon

16:47

a system that is essentially curating, hoping

16:49

that you pop on. pop up on

16:51

the top of your feed. I think

16:53

to make for us some good points

16:55

about the BBC, because I think the

16:57

BBC are not really getting involved in

17:00

this world at all in regards to

17:02

YouTube, apart from putting on clips and

17:04

stuff. They are very much relying upon

17:06

their own system. I think that that's

17:08

working well for them. And I think

17:10

in regards to people staying on maybe

17:12

back to TV or maybe back to

17:14

BBC, I think there was some recent

17:16

report, I think maybe from Ender's. analysis

17:18

that said that the decline of broadcast

17:20

TV has actually slowed down quite a

17:22

bit so we had some big dramatic

17:24

falls fairly recently it seems to be

17:26

seizing up a little bit so maybe

17:29

you know there's a bit more optimism

17:31

I think a final point is I

17:33

I'm not sure whether I'm proud to

17:35

admit this I pay for YouTube premium

17:37

and I found that it's interesting that

17:39

YouTube premium is 1299 a month so

17:41

it's having to the UK you get

17:43

it through the UK you the same

17:45

cost is now Netflix 1299 so it's

17:47

interesting that essentially YouTube's proposition for paying

17:49

1299 is just don't watch ads well

17:51

I think they're also doing a music

17:53

a version without a music player and

17:55

you can listen to any content without

17:58

like leaving the app. But I think

18:00

they're going to do a cheaper version

18:02

which basically is just no ads. Oh

18:04

yes they've lost it in the US

18:06

haven't they? Which comes to the US.

18:08

Right just for the break the Guardian

18:10

reports that the BBC is agitating for

18:12

a change at the world service a

18:14

return to taxpayer funding for us what

18:16

are they saying? I've always think this

18:18

is ridiculous. So when the coalition government

18:20

were in and they kind of did

18:22

that weird back of a paper mat,

18:24

back of a paper map, back of

18:27

a paper napkin re-negotiation of the licence

18:29

fee, one of the things that they

18:31

were told to do is that the

18:33

government were no longer going to pay

18:35

for the world service and the BVC

18:37

and the licensee payer, we're going to

18:39

have to pay for it instead, which

18:41

I always personally thought was ridiculous. You

18:43

know, why are licence fee payers paying

18:45

for service, paying for service that they

18:47

can't, a government that will be state

18:49

funded and it will be part of

18:51

the kind of soft power of the

18:53

foreign office where they will pay for

18:55

the service and then that service will

18:58

be broadcast to various territories around the

19:00

world as part of an independent impartial

19:02

news service as they say. It kind

19:04

of makes sense to me, I don't

19:06

really understand why the licensee is top-slised

19:08

to pay for the world service and

19:10

I do hope that was the Conservatives

19:12

not a big fan of giving any

19:14

money to the BBC. Well exactly and

19:16

I think the way to try and

19:18

balance the budget. Exactly and I think

19:20

it was it was a kind of

19:22

part of a negotiation that like I

19:24

said what happened very very quickly and

19:27

probably wasn't very well thought through. So

19:29

we do need to kind of relook

19:31

at it with a bit more detail

19:33

and it's good to see that that

19:35

is what's happening particularly with what seems

19:37

to be a slightly more sympathetic government

19:39

towards the BBC and you know in

19:41

in the world that we look at

19:43

now with the level of misinformation that's

19:45

out there and with the challenges that

19:47

certain foreign policy in different territories are

19:49

taking place. I think that people are

19:51

beginning to wake up to the fact

19:53

that the World Service is an incredibly

19:56

important thing for both the identity of

19:58

the UK around the world and how

20:00

it's perceived, but also for those local

20:02

people that are consuming that content, because

20:04

they do really, really great work. And

20:06

I think it will be a real

20:08

shame if it continues to see cuts,

20:10

simply because, rightly so, the licence fee

20:12

is prioritised for viewers in the UK.

20:14

and what we need to see as

20:16

a service that's completely independent of that

20:18

so it can also be properly funded.

20:20

Scott, they talk about the influence of

20:22

Russia and China. Do you know how

20:25

much those countries spend on their own

20:27

channels of fraud? There's something like six

20:29

billion or something. Yeah, maybe even eight

20:31

billion compared to 400 million from the

20:33

BBC. And of course, I think... correct

20:35

me if I'm wrong but around the

20:37

entire budget of the BBC in total

20:39

is about six billion yes not probably

20:41

not even that but yeah but it's

20:43

but it's you know massively and then

20:45

they were sort of there was a

20:47

report out that said that essentially when

20:49

the BBC pulled out of one country

20:51

pretty much directly you know Sputnik which

20:53

is related to Russia kind of had

20:56

the same wavelength pretty much immediately so

20:58

I think it highlights that I think

21:00

though like It is still going to

21:02

be a challenge for the BBC because

21:04

even though, yes, they have got a

21:06

friendlier government in who are much more

21:08

keen to fund it, it's about whether

21:10

they will. I mean, purely the fact

21:12

that Rachel Reeves has made it clear

21:14

that they're not going to be raising

21:16

taxes. So you're sort of wondering how

21:18

this money is going to come up,

21:20

particularly if we are having cuts which

21:22

has been reported quite widely in the

21:25

last week of all range of public

21:27

services to then say, oh, actually we're

21:29

going to be ring-fencing the BBC. as

21:31

for the TV license who aren't going

21:33

to be consuming it within the UK,

21:35

I think will be a bit of

21:37

a hard task. I think that the

21:39

wider question is, what on earth is

21:41

going on in regards to the future

21:43

of the license? itself. When I heard

21:45

this I sort of thought... At times

21:47

ticking. Well I thought sort of this

21:49

is this is the BBC kind of

21:51

making its first kind of go at

21:54

charter renewal so both sides are kind

21:56

of sort of toss out things that

21:58

should be covered or shouldn't be covered

22:00

by... But I sort of think this

22:02

is small fry compared to when you

22:04

have to look at the wider existential

22:06

issue about the future of the licence

22:08

fee. I mean like essentially you've had

22:10

over the course of the last year.

22:12

you know the government saying oh we

22:14

know the license fee is going to

22:16

be over sort of continuing on the

22:18

Conservative line but not really coming up

22:20

with what they're going to be replacing

22:23

it with I mean there is going

22:25

to have to be consultations about it

22:27

but it's pretty much everyone it's pretty

22:29

much agreed so far that the license

22:31

fee is still the best way to

22:33

fund the BBC or at least the

22:35

least worst option but it seems to

22:37

be you know no real clear grand

22:39

plan for man for many for anyone

22:41

really about what the future of the

22:43

BBC is and the time we're against

22:45

the clock and you wouldn't want there

22:47

to be a rushed process at a

22:49

critical time for the media industry for

22:52

the next sort of 10 years done

22:54

on the hoof. who benefits them? Sorry

22:56

I'm laughing because that's exactly what happened

22:58

last time. I know and look at

23:00

the consequences, look at the consequences when

23:02

we are still experiencing the consequences of

23:04

that right to this date and if

23:06

it doesn't get us right to the

23:08

whole food properly then the whole ecosystem

23:10

is kind of you know messed up

23:12

because of it. I think Scots absolutely

23:14

nailed it and I think look in

23:16

addition to the cuts in public services

23:18

we've seen kind of massive cuts in

23:20

the foreign aid budget as well so

23:23

you know you could argue that is

23:25

that... good thing for this argument or

23:27

a bad thing for this argument? You

23:29

know, is this a way to kind

23:31

of balance that out or is it

23:33

actually another thing that will go for

23:35

by the wayside as we kind of

23:37

increase our defense budget and look away

23:39

from foreign aid and which of these

23:41

two things does this kind of well

23:43

service fall into? I mean, I think

23:45

that I think a map endorses a

23:47

kind of council tax levy and I've

23:49

kind of talked about there being a

23:52

broadband levy. I think actually the bigger

23:54

problem now is it's no longer the

23:56

amount of money that the license fee

23:58

is as in what is the cost

24:00

of the license fee to the individual.

24:02

license holder. I think now we're seeing

24:04

a real problem with non-payment and I

24:06

think that is gaining real momentum about

24:08

lots of people thinking that they just

24:10

don't want to pay their license fee,

24:12

they don't watch live TV, they don't

24:14

watch the BBC or that's what they've

24:16

argued to themselves and so they've just

24:18

stopped paying the license fee. Well it's

24:21

only going to return to I think

24:23

a lot over the next few months.

24:25

We can talk about this for a

24:27

long time. Hello

24:33

Media Club listeners, Patrick here from Podcast

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and take your video podcast to the

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next level. Don't miss out. Grab this

25:45

chance today. Welcome back. Here's what we've

25:47

been talking about in the Media Club

25:49

this week. There was a very optimistic

25:52

radio days Europe gathering. last weekend. This

25:54

is the tentpole event for audio people

25:56

across the continent including lots of talk

25:58

about how those big breakfast shows don't

26:01

mean six to nine anymore with anything

26:03

from 6am to midday being the peak

26:05

for broadcasters. A deadline reports that the

26:07

four female BBC news presenters are just

26:10

days away from a showdown with the

26:12

corporation over the way the presenters were

26:14

hired for the new look news channel

26:16

but it still may be avoided. Jake

26:19

Canta revealed on Tuesday there's been talks

26:21

of a potentials. settlement and channel 5

26:23

is having a makeover to become 5.

26:25

Now you may think they were called

26:28

5 before but you'd be wrong as

26:30

that was the word 5 and not

26:32

the number 5 which is what it

26:34

is now. So it's channel 5 and

26:37

5 and channel 5 and 5 got

26:39

it. Is that is that the right

26:41

order? Yeah and then with ITV then

26:43

ITV then ITV1 then ITV the 90V1.

26:46

Have you spoken to the good people

26:48

of Channel 5 slash 5 marketing about

26:50

this? I mean I can understand you

26:52

know the whole concept is have everything

26:55

under the one banner and then when

26:57

you search for it is all able

26:59

to be found quite but I still

27:01

think it's like I just I worry

27:04

whether viewers actually notice or care because

27:06

if you look at some re-brands I

27:08

mean like for example gold you know

27:10

that was UK gold then UK TV

27:13

gold then G-O-L-D which stood for Go

27:15

On Laugh Daily. Then that, a dreadful,

27:17

then that became you on Gold because

27:19

you as a streaming service and it's

27:22

just a bit like, I get it,

27:24

I get it, but do the viewers

27:26

get it? I'm not so sure. I

27:28

think it's interesting, I bet they did

27:31

some research into the channel 5 name.

27:33

Yeah. I was fascinated what came back,

27:35

what people called it. Did they call

27:37

it Channel 5? Do they call it

27:40

5? Is it just going with what

27:42

people... That channel with Jay McDonald on?

27:44

That's the one. Perpetually on a cruise.

27:46

There's a bigger scan attached to this,

27:49

which is the Boy Band 5, which

27:51

actually is spelled F-I-V-E, and not what

27:53

I thought it was, which is the

27:55

number five. I remember watching it. I

27:58

was so hyperactive my grand told me

28:00

to calm down. It was a British

28:02

boy band called five and the British

28:04

TV channel called five. Did you ask

28:07

the chat at GBT this? No, this

28:09

is just like, do you not know

28:11

this Scott? This is like, this is

28:13

pop culture like, wrote like. But also,

28:16

you've got to remember the channel 5

28:18

originally launched by the Spice Girls. I

28:20

know, I remember watching it. I was

28:22

so hyperactive, my grand told me to

28:25

calm me to calm down. It was

28:27

the power. It was the power. But

28:29

at the same time, as five

28:31

have come back, they should have

28:33

got the five boys to re-sing

28:36

it. It was a missed opportunity.

28:38

Nephi was sky high. Okay, Scott.

28:40

But yeah, but just 5 quid.

28:42

Scott, the BAFTA TV and Memorable

28:45

Moment Award was announced this week.

28:47

You've been involved in selecting the

28:49

short list. How did you manage

28:51

to get that job? Anyway, who's

28:54

on it? I mean, it was

28:56

utter joy to be in the

28:58

room where you're essentially debating for

29:00

traitors for two hours. But I

29:03

mean, it's the only award at

29:05

the TV BAFTA which is voted

29:07

for by the public. be amazing

29:09

if next year she is voted

29:12

for that category because it means

29:14

that her bad acting could win

29:16

a bathtub. Anyway, with this year

29:19

for the traitors it is Paul,

29:21

couldn't be my son but Ross's,

29:23

you've also got the Bridgeton scene

29:25

with Nicola Cocklin and Luke Newton.

29:28

You've also got, this is what

29:30

I'm really scratching my head, because the only

29:32

part of my memory. I love how uniform

29:34

is an idea when I was on the

29:37

panel. Chris McCausland is on there, three out

29:39

of six, here we go. I'm sure Gavin

29:41

and Stacey must have been on there. Are

29:43

they on there? Yes they are, they are,

29:46

they are on there. Because of course that

29:48

was the most watched TV moment since 2002,

29:50

since modern records began, with more than 20

29:52

million viewers, so of course that that that's

29:55

on there. and two others. Post office? Post

29:57

office must be on there. Post office, yes,

29:59

monocled. and the post office. That's the

30:01

moment where Joe Hamilton realizes that the

30:04

money that she owes doubles in front

30:06

of her eyes and there's a sixth

30:08

one and it is from a streamer

30:10

and I should really know this and

30:12

this is I think really highlights why

30:14

I have a great benefit on this

30:16

panel. I can't wait for... For us

30:19

can you name the sex if you've

30:21

got an air front? It's a thing

30:23

that I don't think I've watched which

30:25

is... the jilly Cooper thing that on

30:27

this, yes rivals naked tennis, which is

30:29

not a joy if it wins because

30:32

they won't be able to show it.

30:34

100% is a clip that you know

30:36

will be voted for in a big

30:38

way and it would be and the

30:40

winner is we cannot show you. So

30:42

for us anything you think should have

30:45

been on the list which which was

30:47

on? That's a good question. I can

30:49

only think because I'm watching White Lotus

30:51

at the moment and I can only

30:53

have you know think that if rivals

30:55

makes it onto the moment this year,

30:58

does that mean that we're going to

31:00

see a kind of certain other full

31:02

frontal nudity shop in it next year?

31:04

But you know, that sounds great. You

31:06

know what I mean? It's like, is

31:08

that the only way that you can,

31:11

well, who is it that said, somebody

31:13

said recently that the only way that

31:15

you can win an Oscar is by

31:17

getting your kit off. There was an

31:19

actress that mentioned anyway. But as a

31:21

whole, we're into a whole different, different

31:23

podcast. I don't want to see the

31:26

Media Club spin-off. That's why we're not

31:28

a film podcast. Is it a processing,

31:30

we're not going to ask the question,

31:32

anybody that you thought should be on

31:34

the list that wasn't or anything you

31:36

were arguing for, you were like, didn't

31:39

quite most get into the sex. Oh,

31:41

I'm not allowed to say that in

31:43

the case that the people who made

31:45

that show then realizes that they could

31:47

have been nominated for a slash moments.

31:49

Bathto.org/moments. That was effortless. It was like

31:52

I knew them all on the top

31:54

of my head even though all of

31:56

yesterday is all it did was talk

31:58

about it today. Gone. Gone. Okay last

32:00

week we discussed a long working hours

32:02

of crew in the media and this

32:05

week we saw the end of an

32:07

independent report into the death of... factual

32:09

producer John Balson took his own life

32:11

just after finishing on the Channel 4

32:13

series in the Footstep of Killers produced

32:15

by Alaska TV Scott was we can't

32:18

know exactly what happened what do we

32:20

sort of know about the situation I

32:22

mean we know from the independent report

32:24

in regards to the work-related stress that

32:26

this person had been experiencing and it's

32:28

a you know in regards to the

32:31

amount of work-related stress involved and I

32:33

think in the freelance industry of course,

32:35

particularly on productions, long hours. I think

32:37

what is interesting is that from Channel

32:39

4's perspective, they've said that they have

32:41

taken on a lot of the recommendations

32:43

in regards to the report that was

32:46

independently put on after his death, saying

32:48

that essentially production companies should ensure timely

32:50

circulation of mental health resources, that they

32:52

should encourage dialogue or transparency in regards

32:54

to mental health matters. the possibility of

32:56

introducing a flexible working policy and also

32:59

additional monitoring and oversight of freelancing working

33:01

hours and this is something that Channel

33:03

4 say that they are committed to.

33:05

I think you know you have to

33:07

take a step back and sort of

33:09

look in the most general sense about

33:12

the pressures that the free lancer industry

33:14

within the TV industry have been experiencing

33:16

and there was another article I think

33:18

by Michael Savage in the Guardian on

33:20

Saturday talking about the amount of... freelancers

33:22

who are currently working in shops because

33:25

they are you know they are still

33:27

being affected by this long-running downturn of

33:29

in the industry and the lack of

33:31

available work and I think there are

33:33

a lot of people if you are

33:35

lucky enough to get those work to

33:38

get that work who aren't you know,

33:40

talking about what they're experiencing in terms

33:42

of tough working hours because of the,

33:44

you know, the lack of availability and

33:46

work. I mean, it's a reflection of

33:48

a wider crisis. I mean, for us,

33:51

there's sort of a feeling that free

33:53

arts just kind of have little recourse

33:55

if they sort of want to be

33:57

employed again. It's sort of suffering silence.

33:59

Yeah, I mean, the first one saying...

34:01

I mean this is obviously an incredibly

34:03

tragic case and I think it's important

34:06

to kind of say that I can't

34:08

even begin to imagine the family and

34:10

how they've had to deal with this.

34:12

In addition to that it's interesting that

34:14

the comment that's come back from the

34:16

report is that I think the phrases

34:19

that they've discharged their respective duties of

34:21

care and yet they're also taking on

34:23

recommendations which to me feels like a

34:25

bit of an oxymoron. Either you have...

34:27

done what you needed to do or

34:29

you need to make improvements. I don't

34:32

really understand what are we saying that

34:34

it was worse then and now we're

34:36

going to improve it which is great

34:38

or are we saying that actually everything

34:40

was fine back then but we're still

34:42

going to improve it and I just

34:45

can't really understand how that's come about.

34:47

I think the truth is... I was

34:49

going to say for us, I mean

34:51

you run an Indy, China for implementing

34:53

these things for you guys to get

34:55

added to your budgets, is something that

34:58

you think more about? We're a smaller

35:00

indie so we're also chasing for work

35:02

ourselves which is a stressful situation. And

35:04

when you're a freelancer, and you're also

35:06

looking for work, we can empathize, I

35:08

should say. But I think part of

35:10

this conversation is how we've matured the

35:13

TV industry in this country, which it

35:15

has now been pushed into the independent

35:17

sector and on the freelance market, without

35:19

really any thought or consideration about what

35:21

the consequences are. And this is obviously

35:23

the most extreme example of it. We've

35:26

also got problems with training and how

35:28

do we make sure that young people

35:30

and new entrants into the market can

35:32

get trained up so that They can

35:34

make mistakes and be protected by a

35:36

system that you would do in any

35:39

other industry. How can we make sure

35:41

that people have got sustainable pensions and

35:43

sustainable workplaces and all the health and

35:45

safety is considered when they are all

35:47

just freelancers and effectively working for themselves?

35:49

And as we do move to an

35:52

online model and a creator model and

35:54

a creator model, all of those people

35:56

are not just working for themselves, but

35:58

they're creating things for themselves and there

36:00

is no safety net at all. And

36:02

we've had lots of stories about YouTubea

36:05

burnouts. that they need to relentlessly keep

36:07

uploading more material. And there is no

36:09

protection there whatsoever. There is no body.

36:11

There is no trade body that can

36:13

look after people. There is no channel

36:15

that can take responsibility. It's literally every

36:18

person for themselves. And so it is

36:20

an issue with the industry. I think

36:22

everyone needs to start reflecting it. It

36:24

started with this crisis around the freelance

36:26

market. And we are able to tell

36:28

stories around that and shine a light

36:30

on them. But the truth is that

36:33

this is becoming an increasingly... difficult space

36:35

for individuals to work in and we

36:37

all need to be much more sympathetic

36:39

to that and make sure that we

36:41

make that we continue to make programs

36:43

in a really safe and honest way.

36:46

Okay don't go anywhere I'm going to

36:48

be sprinkling some stardust over the media

36:50

quiz. It's next. Welcome back just some

36:52

time to do the quiz this week

36:54

entitled Stardust. Let's see how much attention

36:56

I guess have been paying attention to

36:59

the media this week. Now there's magic

37:01

in the air. Three media stories this

37:03

week can testify to that. Oh, I

37:05

see. Yeah, you're not just saying the

37:07

word magic for no reason. Okay, great.

37:09

But can you identify the stardust? That's

37:12

what we're after today. It's a best

37:14

of three. Buzz in with your name

37:16

if you know the answer. So Scott,

37:18

you will say. Scott. And for us,

37:20

you will say. Let's play. Star Dust.

37:22

Okay, question number one. Which Royal Star

37:25

got recommission this week? Oh Scott, that's

37:27

yes. Megan Markle. She did. No, rung,

37:29

no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

37:31

no, no, no, absolutely not, no, I

37:33

was about to finish, I was about

37:35

to finish, what a point to say

37:38

they'd already filmed the series anyway. Still

37:40

calling the AR, still calling the AR,

37:42

still calling the series anyway. Still calling

37:44

VAR, still calling VAR, still calling VAR,

37:46

can I, I want to get adjudicators

37:48

Megan Sussex, thank you very much, no

37:50

longer known as Megan Markle. The show

37:53

is called Love Megan and as we

37:55

have argued about it returning to Netflix.

37:57

Have you watched any of it Scott?

37:59

I have. Good. Average? I mean like

38:01

this is the thing there's been so

38:03

much fuss about this. and you know

38:06

the people who don't like to say

38:08

it's the worst thing that's ever happened.

38:10

and people who love her have sort

38:12

of said that you know this is

38:14

a great show. I was asked a

38:16

lot. I mean my phone was bouncing

38:19

across the room for day when it

38:21

was on with every single program I

38:23

like who normally contacted me saying oh

38:25

you know what are your opinions thinking

38:27

that I'm going to be real rolled

38:29

up about it. Well basically wanting to

38:32

slay off don't you know? All I

38:34

said was it's fine. It's fine like

38:36

it's pretty much like every other lifestyle

38:38

lifestyle program. on the food network, on

38:40

the lifestyle shows, you know, there's a

38:42

lot of criticism saying, oh, you know,

38:45

it's all aspirational. Have you watched TV?

38:47

All of it is aspirational. All of

38:49

it is aspirational. All of it is

38:51

like, oh, you know, I'm going to

38:53

be preparing bath salts for my friend

38:55

coming over. Like, yes, there are very

38:57

down to earth, you know, here is

39:00

how you can save some money, but

39:02

I don't really understand why anybody in

39:04

the... UK thinks that this show is

39:06

in any way made for them. There's

39:08

a very American style about it and

39:10

there's lots of these short sort of

39:13

shows over in the US. Scott, I

39:15

don't know if you know more about

39:17

this, but I heard a rumor that

39:19

dramas on Netflix now need to have

39:21

a kitchen kind of mood board before

39:23

they get commissioned because everyone's going to

39:26

have very aspirational kitchens and that's now

39:28

the thing for high-end dramas on streamers

39:30

is that it all depends on how

39:32

good your kitchen looks. heard about this

39:34

however I have to say disclaimer on

39:36

Apple TV plus what a kitchen like

39:39

literally the kids that's a Cape Blanchett

39:41

story very depressing subject matter but the

39:43

kitchen is just phenomenal it's like a

39:45

main character honest to God like during

39:47

some of the most intense scenes imaginable

39:49

I was like I would serve the

39:52

most wonderful platter in that kitchen a

39:54

kitchen island drama right question number two

39:56

which channel was fined a hundred and

39:58

fifty thousand some pounds this week for

40:00

selling Miracle Springwater. Oh for us, well

40:02

I'm gonna say it's one of the

40:05

religious channels obviously that's why it's happened

40:07

but I can't say him and I

40:09

can tell you exactly what it was

40:11

so I'm gonna... Say pray TV. Let's

40:13

live on a God channel. Go on.

40:15

I'm making a TV channel up that

40:17

I think would be a religious TV

40:20

channel. So I'm going to say please

40:22

do that. You can have half a

40:24

point. This is the word network. That's

40:26

what you're scrambling for. The owners defended

40:28

the channel arguing its audience was predominantly

40:30

in the US and it had limited

40:33

understanding of off-com's concerns which attributed to

40:35

a matter of cultural or market difference.

40:37

It's for the rule Scott. It's like

40:39

if you don't understand them. four of

40:41

them. I'm just having my miracle water

40:43

as we speak. You'll do very well.

40:46

Okay, Christian number three, finally, who's bringing

40:48

some sparkle to mornings at Radio 4?

40:50

Oh, Scott. Yes. Anna Foster. Yes. Yes,

40:52

so she is joining the Today program.

40:54

after their long sort of search since

40:56

Michelle was standing down around Christmas. I

40:59

mean I think it's a great move.

41:01

Yes you've been a big admirer. I've

41:03

known that for years. I think she's

41:05

kind of the perfect, she's got all

41:07

of the skills that are perfect for

41:09

that role in which she has had

41:12

years and years of live experience. She's

41:14

also sort of been on the ground

41:16

in her reporting she did from the

41:18

Middle East. There was one time when

41:20

she had to do the news at

41:22

six during a major development and she

41:25

did the whole half hour. with live

41:27

correspondence, doing and throwing, asking all the

41:29

questions with no script. It was all

41:31

done completely on the hoof. And if

41:33

you were tuned in as a casual

41:35

viewer, you would not have realized. And

41:37

I think she's incredibly capable, incredibly determined.

41:40

She's back in the UK, it has

41:42

been for a while, because she's been

41:44

doing for news at one. But I

41:46

think, because reading the statement that came

41:48

out from the BBC, that as well

41:50

as giving her today. program, I think

41:53

there's going to be scope in terms

41:55

of having TV projects, I think maybe

41:57

lessons being learned about the loss of

41:59

old talent in terms of, you know,

42:01

you have to give them more than

42:03

just the one show, you have to

42:06

give them opportunities across the BBC. I

42:08

think you're going to present it quite

42:10

a bit from Salford which is where

42:12

Norcock News comes from. It's a good

42:14

choice. Yeah, it's a good choice. I

42:16

do I do wonder what Cassia Adler's

42:19

going to going to do because I

42:21

think that she was going to It

42:23

was a surprise to many people that

42:25

she didn't get that job. But I

42:27

think everything that Scott says, I absolutely

42:29

echo, Anna's analysis is an incredibly competent

42:32

journalist and feels like it's going to

42:34

be a very great addition to the

42:36

today team. I still say it was

42:38

an absolute travesty, that they lost Michelle,

42:40

he's saying. I think she's an incredible

42:42

journalist and I think that that they're

42:45

going to be big shoes to fill,

42:47

should we say? Well, congratulations. Scott, winner

42:49

of the quiz, you get 17 crates

42:51

of Media Club Water, which I can't

42:53

advertise anymore. It's very sad. Thank you

42:55

both for joining us. For our time,

42:57

people keep up with what you're up

43:00

to. So we are Gold Under School

43:02

World Out on the Socials. I urge

43:04

anybody that is a freelancer to keep

43:06

an eye out because we are going

43:08

to start advertising jobs soon because we've

43:10

got a few commissions that we're very

43:13

excited about. And you can find us

43:15

kind of, if you can find me

43:17

on LinkedIn, on LinkedIn, and all the

43:19

other platforms, apart from. one particular one,

43:21

which I'm still there, but I don't

43:23

pretend it exists anymore. And Scott, how

43:26

can people get ready for your broadcast

43:28

piece? Yes, that will be out later

43:30

in the month. Apart from that, I'm

43:32

just, that's Scotty GB. Excellent, thank you

43:34

very much. Thanks for joining us. I

43:36

thank you for joining us as well.

43:39

Remember if you haven't already do sign

43:41

up to the substack. It's free, it's

43:43

at the Media Club.com, and you get

43:45

an update about the show each week.

43:47

My name is Matt Degan, the producer

43:49

was Matt Hill, it was a rethink

43:52

audio production, with video support from Podcast

43:54

Discovery. And we'll see you next week.

44:00

So, You