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for details. Hello,

1:55

welcome to the Media Club. I'm your host Matt

1:57

Deacon in the club today the toxic world of

1:59

the comedy and the rise of sub-stack

2:01

writer and broadcaster Julia Rayside joins us

2:03

on the members sofa. Also on the

2:06

program, Just As News UK wraps

2:08

up its court battles, ITV announcing new

2:10

drama about them, starring Toby Jones as

2:12

Alan Rusprager. Blimmy, media writer Tara Conlon

2:15

tells us more. All that plus, should

2:17

we follow Europe's lead and raise

2:19

a broadcasting levy on the streamers? That's

2:21

all happening in this edition of the

2:24

media club. Come on in. Hi guys, nice

2:26

to see you both. First of all,

2:28

Tara. Tell me, who's had a good

2:30

media week? Who'd you like to add

2:33

to the club? Well, as I

2:35

said, I was going to actually

2:37

add Julia, a brilliant book, which

2:39

is very timely with the Russell

2:42

brand investigation news today. But I

2:44

am, instead going to put Alex

2:46

Mann in, because I've just come

2:49

hotfoot from... Tada! Their survey and

2:51

report on Gen Z trends, truth

2:53

and trust. So she's Channel 4,

2:55

Chief Exect. Channel 4, CEO,

2:57

and she gave, it was

3:00

a really bold and brave

3:02

speech actually, calling out the

3:04

tech titans, I think as

3:06

she called them, for their,

3:08

was it, wanton abandonment of

3:10

the pursuit of truth or

3:12

something like that, and calling

3:14

on the industry to work

3:16

together to provide some kind

3:18

of... bulwark against this sort

3:20

of flattening of the hierarchy,

3:22

which means that someone who's

3:24

making up stuff in their

3:26

bedroom is via an algorithm can

3:28

be seen, you know, as much

3:30

as trusted content from Channel 4

3:32

News. So she had some practical

3:35

suggestions, some kind of trust

3:37

mark, I think she called

3:39

it. It's like a stamp

3:41

of authenticity on content on

3:43

social media. What's true and

3:46

what's not, so it will

3:48

have that stamp on it.

3:51

She also called for training

3:53

of large language models with

3:55

public service content and also

3:58

suggested having prominence on social

4:00

media of public service content. In

4:02

the same way that the algorithm,

4:04

so using the algorithm to to

4:06

give that prominence in the same

4:08

way that public service media is

4:10

given prominence on tele. Yes, on

4:12

SkyPGs and things, those channels have

4:14

to be shown. And she also

4:16

exposed a really worrying divide between

4:18

men and women and how, you

4:20

know, the traditional broadcasters and news

4:22

providers address that why so many

4:24

men feel disenfranchised, disenfranchised the survey.

4:26

showed that. So it was a

4:28

really, really went to the heart,

4:30

it was in association with the

4:32

RTS as well, but it really

4:34

went to the heart of a

4:37

big issue facing news providers at

4:39

the moment and facing parents at

4:41

the moment about how do your

4:43

children get their news, what's trusted,

4:45

what's not, how can the broadcasting

4:47

industry provide a... trusted way through

4:49

that and you know if there

4:51

are rooms about Alex leaving you

4:53

know as a kind of like

4:55

legacy this would be a good

4:57

a good speech yes a good

4:59

thing to be doing I was

5:01

sort of interesting sort of the

5:03

radicalism of the algorithm because it's

5:05

an algorithm you don't know who

5:07

else is being radicalized to what

5:09

they're what they're seeing no exactly

5:11

and you know I've got to

5:13

a son who is nearly 16

5:15

and a daughter who is 18

5:17

and off Tiktok they're getting all

5:19

sorts of stuff and I say

5:21

to them well if you see

5:23

something then go to a trusted

5:25

provider like you know BBC or

5:27

Sky or Channel 4 news and

5:29

double source it but as the

5:31

Channel 4 report found that there

5:33

is this flattening of hierarchies so

5:35

people youngsters will think that something

5:37

that their friend posts has as

5:39

much validity and truth as something

5:42

that they you know might see

5:44

from another source yeah that's really

5:46

hard to address we've all had

5:48

that conversation similarly a teenager I've

5:50

got a teenager at home nearly

5:52

16 and I mean years ago

5:54

now right at the beginning of

5:56

the pandemic, they confidently came into

5:58

the room and told me, Mom,

6:00

you know, it started in a

6:02

lab. And they'd seen something with

6:04

the furniture of breaking news that

6:06

if you squint could look a

6:08

bit at BBC. And it's scary,

6:10

because one day we might not

6:12

have, I would go and check

6:14

with BBC, to check with, and

6:16

that really reminds me. Yeah, the

6:18

mid literacy side of it, I

6:20

think, is fascinating too. Anyway Julia,

6:22

welcome to the sofa, welcome to

6:24

the book in a little bit.

6:26

But who do I lean? So

6:28

I've been screaming at time. Yes,

6:30

it is there just behind you.

6:32

Who would you like to add

6:34

to our club roles this week?

6:36

Well, I mean, are we allowed

6:38

members of the judiciary? Sure. Is

6:40

that like a bit out there?

6:42

So this is about, it's very

6:44

much in my wheelhouse, the sort

6:46

of men accused of toxic behaviour

6:49

at work. But the latest in

6:51

the Nole Clark case. his legal

6:53

team were trying to get the

6:55

Guardian's story, various defences of the

6:57

Guardian's story thrown out, he's trying

6:59

to sue the Guardian obviously for

7:01

defamation and something to do with

7:03

data breaches. But Mrs. Justice Stein

7:05

is who I would like to

7:07

invite into the Media Club because

7:09

she, the headlines will say he

7:11

suffered a blow this week, but

7:13

she basically told him he couldn't

7:15

throw out the Guardian's defences of

7:17

truth and public interest, who knew,

7:19

and a court, from their 2021

7:21

and 2022 articles about him. His

7:23

legal team suggested that the Guardian

7:25

had fabricated evidence and then when

7:27

challenged his barrister said he admitted

7:29

he couldn't actually point to a

7:31

specific document that had been fabricated

7:33

so clearly just you know you

7:35

can just hear between the lines

7:37

the kind of this woman who's

7:39

clearly just not got any time

7:41

for this nonsense going throw this

7:43

out next and it just it

7:45

pleases me when I when I

7:47

when I see something just there's

7:49

a woman who's had enough yes

7:51

between the lines of the article

7:54

so she's welcome it's good to

7:56

add off first justice to the

7:58

to the to our membership list

8:00

to the to our membership list

8:02

I think I think you need

8:04

one in there in there's rouse

8:06

very important Okay, our first story.

8:08

ITV have announced a new Toby

8:10

Jones takes on a Goliath drama.

8:12

Tara, what's this one that's popped

8:14

up? This one is the hack,

8:16

which I think has had a

8:18

couple of different names, but it's

8:20

basically about phone hacking. And it

8:22

follows... Davis from the Guardian and

8:24

Amelia Hill as well. And they're

8:26

reporting on how they uncovered it,

8:28

the hacking. It's combined, I mean

8:30

it shows the police workings, it

8:32

shows as well, I think was

8:34

it the Daniel Morgan case at

8:36

the time as well and how

8:38

they were interwoven and the to

8:40

do with the people who were

8:42

doing the private detectives and the

8:44

work that they were doing. But

8:46

it also follows, you know, the

8:48

uncovering of hacking and the methodical

8:50

and, you know, terrier-like reporting that

8:52

was done by Nick and the

8:54

Guardian to move this story on

8:56

and get it to where it

8:59

is today with the millions billions

9:01

that's been spent on damages. And

9:03

it's, you know, it's a great

9:05

cast as well. It's obviously, it's

9:07

done by the same team behind

9:09

Mr Bates in the post office

9:11

in the sense that it's Patrick's

9:13

B. Studios. It's written by Jack

9:15

Thorn who there must be two

9:17

of him he's doing everything. The

9:19

Netflix thing last night and adolescence

9:21

which he's also written is also

9:23

brilliant. I mean from a journalist

9:25

he covers media obviously the hack

9:27

is it's the biggest it's the

9:29

biggest it's the biggest story because

9:31

it's the biggest story because it

9:33

goes to the heart because it

9:35

goes to the heart of journalism

9:37

it goes to people that you

9:39

know we knew at the time

9:41

who were going out getting these

9:43

stories how were getting these stories

9:45

they were lying and cheating. It

9:47

will be interesting to see how

9:49

much. comes out afterwards inevitably as

9:51

happened with Mr Bates in the

9:53

post office. If there's anything left,

9:55

if there's anyone else to come

9:57

forward, there will be people shaking

9:59

in their boots, I'm sure. I

10:01

mean I don't know, is Rebecca

10:03

Brooks, is she featuring in this

10:06

as well? I don't know what

10:08

dark whispering about as long as

10:10

he's alive. She's safe. Well there

10:12

was, casting wise is pretty good

10:14

isn't it? I love the cast.

10:16

David Tenet's in the Robert Carline?

10:18

If you've ever seen Nick Davies

10:20

in real life, so he's kind

10:22

of, he's well known isn't he

10:24

in journalism for like double denim,

10:26

a leather jacket that never comes

10:28

off, doesn't matter how hot it

10:30

gets, some kind of cool little

10:32

shark's tooth necklace going on there

10:34

maybe sometimes, and yeah, tenon in

10:36

the stills just looks, I mean

10:38

actually strangely uns, like low key.

10:40

be pleased he's being a... I

10:42

mean, there wouldn't be. Well, don't

10:44

you go, because Cope Jones, he's

10:46

done, was it, the Ruth Alice

10:48

story as well, so he is

10:50

Mr, you know, injustice, so he

10:52

is the stand-up guy you want

10:54

to be portrayed by, or someone

10:56

else suggested Bill Nye would have

10:58

been great. I think if you

11:00

want, if you want the audience

11:02

to feel incredible pathos, you know,

11:04

for the editor of the Guardian,

11:06

then you've cast the right guy.

11:08

of course be watching it too.

11:11

Can it cross over into the

11:13

mainstream? Is it something that, because

11:15

people are aware of phone hacking,

11:17

are they bothered enough? I think

11:19

so. I mean obviously nosy is

11:21

the first thing. We're all nosy.

11:23

But I think the fact that,

11:25

you know, sometimes it did cross

11:27

over into quotes normal people. It

11:29

wasn't always celebrities. Obviously we know

11:31

some of the really distressing stories

11:33

of journalists hacking, you know, murder

11:35

victims, and goodness knows what. I

11:37

think, I mean, I think there's,

11:39

the noziness will win out. I

11:41

don't know if it'll have the

11:43

same emotional impact maybe as Mr

11:45

Bates, but I think it will

11:47

certainly be viewed well. It'll be

11:49

hard for journalists as well, the

11:51

ones who, the good ones, because...

11:53

again it goes back to this

11:55

point about trusted news and a

11:57

lot of good journalists that I

11:59

know who were caught up in

12:01

this on those papers that were

12:03

involved had to prove time and

12:05

time again to people that they

12:07

weren't hacking and you know for

12:09

the profession it's going to inevitably

12:11

put the spotlight on it for

12:13

the right reasons and it absolutely

12:16

should happen yeah but as long

12:18

as people then don't go oh

12:20

well that's just the mainstream media

12:22

that you were all hacking which

12:24

of course we weren't and journalism

12:26

is doing amazing things and helping,

12:28

helping people. So that's, that will

12:30

be the, yeah, but it should

12:32

be made, absolutely should be made.

12:34

So have ITB Studios worked out

12:36

how to make money from this?

12:38

Because obviously Mr Baseball Post Office,

12:40

they talked about the fact they

12:42

didn't make any money. Well, it's

12:44

co-production as well. Yeah, with, um,

12:46

it was in an Australian company,

12:48

Stan. Stan. Stan. Which obviously with

12:50

the news, you know, with the

12:52

Murdoch links, I mean it does

12:54

make it more of a global

12:56

story. I mean succession I suppose

12:58

that you could say it's succession

13:00

in real life. the way into

13:02

it is through hacking, but it's

13:04

this powerful media empire which crosses

13:06

continents. So they might be able

13:08

to kind of, you know, counter

13:10

some of the money they didn't

13:12

make on Mr. Bates. Could work,

13:14

could work. Okay, the BBC World

13:16

Service is to cut 130 jobs

13:18

over the next year in a

13:20

bid to keep budgets on track.

13:23

This is despite the foreign office

13:25

agreeing to increasing the funding of

13:27

the service. It's a bit of

13:29

a strange one, isn't it, Tara

13:31

Tara Tara, this. More money is

13:33

coming in from the government, labour

13:35

government, a bit more pro funding

13:37

of the BBC, but the world

13:39

service have had to make more

13:41

cuts. Yeah, I think again it's

13:43

operating in the, you know, in

13:45

the world that they are in

13:47

this global news. I was talking

13:49

about it with someone last night

13:51

actually at the Netflix event because

13:53

it's, you can't forecast what's going

13:55

to happen in. news and there's

13:57

a lot of news to cover.

13:59

There's a lot of countries to

14:01

cover and you don't know where

14:03

you're going to have to assign

14:05

your resources and obviously you're having

14:07

to also operate in a financial

14:09

year which they don't yet have

14:11

the money for. So some of

14:13

these things I assume will be

14:15

done in retrospect and then you

14:17

know perhaps they can be restored

14:19

but it's a lot of roles

14:21

with the 130 rules. They're going

14:23

to rejig some of the... the

14:25

language services, change the commissioning mix

14:28

or something like that. and monitoring

14:30

as well. But it's important, you

14:32

know, for the soft power of

14:34

the UK. I mean, Julia, BBC

14:36

monitoring isn't really the sexy part

14:38

of BBC or World Service, but

14:40

it monitors what governments are saying,

14:42

governments are much more involved in

14:44

the media than they used to

14:46

be. You're sort of torn between,

14:48

I bet some of it can

14:50

be handled kind of with AI

14:52

versus real humans decoding it. I

14:54

guess that's the challenge, isn't it

14:56

for them? It is, I think

14:58

it's one of those things where...

15:00

an average license payer won't really

15:02

understand what it is they're paying

15:04

for. I think it's something we'll

15:06

lose maybe the world service or

15:08

significant parts of it and then

15:10

we'll notice that we don't have

15:12

ears all over the world and

15:14

we don't have that's a stream

15:16

of information coming in. Again it

15:18

goes back to what we are

15:20

saying at the start about just

15:22

not having that relied upon information

15:24

source. Obviously BBC sorry is always

15:26

looking at how to cut costs

15:28

because they have to and and

15:30

you know some something has to

15:33

give somewhere but it feels like

15:35

a table that's gradually having its

15:37

legs removed it makes me feel

15:39

very uneasy. It's difficult the world

15:41

service because there's so much happening

15:43

there are in so many countries

15:45

the demands on them are so

15:47

high and there's always this challenge

15:49

of license fee payers going why

15:51

are we why are we paying

15:53

for this can we just have

15:55

some more more programming here in

15:57

the UK please yeah but that's

15:59

it I think we'll notice it

16:01

when it when it's gone That's

16:03

the worry. I mean, Tara, we've

16:05

seen a lot with news organizations.

16:07

cutting CNN, cuts, NBC news cuts

16:09

this month as well. Do you

16:11

think everybody's perhaps pulling away from

16:13

international? It's an easier thing to

16:15

cut isn't it? And everyone just

16:17

concentrates in domestic. It's expensive isn't

16:19

it? You can do, that's the

16:21

classic line being put out by

16:23

lots of news organizations at the

16:25

moment in broadcasting, you know, the

16:27

pictures, the video online you don't

16:29

have to, it's not. as sort

16:31

of resource heavy is it, but

16:33

it's trying to sort of join

16:35

the dots between, you know, you've

16:37

got Comcast's deal with Sky News

16:40

coming up soon, you've got either

16:42

cutbacks at the BBC News, cutbacks

16:44

at World Service, and you just

16:46

think cutbacks in BBC Local Radio,

16:48

and you think where is this

16:50

heading, you know, and what does

16:52

it mean for viewers with all

16:54

these various different cuts? and trying

16:56

to join the dots I don't

16:58

know if it if the word

17:00

kind of like warning is spelled

17:02

out between them but it's expensive

17:04

it is really expensive okay when

17:06

we return we dive into the

17:08

comedy industry Julius new book and

17:10

adventures on sub-stack all after these

17:12

messages Hello

17:20

Media Club listeners, Patrick here from Podcast

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Discovery, the podcast marketing company, where this

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Go to LinkedIn.com/results. Welcome

20:32

back. Here's what we've been talking about

20:35

in Media Club this week. It's a

20:37

fun farewell to John Clark, who's leaving

20:39

the Daily Star after seven years as

20:42

the editor. Clark scored a number of

20:44

blockbuster front pages that captured the nation's

20:46

attention, including a live stream lettuce that

20:49

outlived Liz Truss as Prime Minister. Tim

20:51

Davy, the BBC's director general, defended the

20:53

corporation against accusations that the Scottish production

20:55

crew for the traitors, has actually been

20:58

shipped from London, telling MSPs that they

21:00

are not gaming the system. and they

21:02

want to go beyond regulations to invest

21:05

more in the nation. And the drama

21:07

funding crisis is over for one production

21:09

as the adaptation of book a prize-winning

21:12

book Shiggy Bain has been announced by

21:14

the BBC after A24 came on board

21:16

to co-finance the deal. Drama Chief Lindsay

21:19

Salt called the crisis a perfect storm

21:21

but added that we at the BBC

21:23

are as creatively ambitious as ever. Tara

21:25

and Julia still with me. Tara competing

21:28

with the streamers for high-end drama. It's

21:30

pretty difficult isn't it? Yeah, actually I

21:32

was at the next on Netflix event

21:35

last night and this came up Actually

21:37

when people were talking about it with

21:39

drinks afterwards about you know shows in

21:42

limbo and you could I guess you

21:44

can kind of see on one hand

21:46

You know, it was very it was

21:49

huge last night massive picture house central,

21:51

you know, you know, amazing do and

21:53

so much content. I mean amazing it's

21:56

like who isn't working for Netflix at

21:58

the moment they had a live stream

22:00

in from America it was in 12

22:02

countries around the world this simultaneous sort

22:05

of announcement then they went off to

22:07

local content and they got you know

22:09

they said it's probably their biggest year

22:12

ever and they've got the what sounds

22:14

like the first global chat show with

22:16

John Malaneyaney, they've got more live events

22:19

they said that they would do, they've

22:21

got Netflix houses, they had sneak peaks

22:23

of Stranger Things, square game, Wednesday. So

22:26

it was huge and beautifully done. So

22:28

you can kind of see if you

22:30

were a British broadcaster, you'd be going

22:32

hmm. You know we used to say

22:35

that Channel 4 had jacuzzes of cash.

22:37

I mean this was like Olympic size

22:39

swimming pools with the Netflix logo all

22:42

over it of cash. It was... beautifully

22:44

done but you know they're doing well

22:46

Netflix are doing well was it 700

22:49

million people I think watch it the

22:51

revenues are up great last quarter yeah

22:53

exactly yeah so you can see why

22:56

the money is coming in and then

22:58

on the other hand you have the

23:00

British broadcaster saying we're some you know

23:03

was it up to 15 because Minsky

23:05

was saying up to 15 shows are

23:07

in green light limbo so there was

23:09

an argument going on last night between

23:12

various but not an argument discussion you

23:14

know, is it that the BBC or

23:16

public service broadcasters have to cut their

23:19

cloth differently if there isn't the co-pro

23:21

money available? Netflix and Mensa was there

23:23

saying she wants to do, you know,

23:26

the, you know, co-productions and working with,

23:28

you know, the local broadcasts, is there

23:30

something they want to do? Yeah, it's

23:33

easy to say, it's, yeah, how much,

23:35

you know, how much the... public service

23:37

broadcasters and the independence can raise. There's

23:39

so many people out there at the

23:42

moment trying to raise finance and deficit

23:44

finance. I know of a particular drama.

23:46

which might not come back because they

23:49

can't get the money. It's one of

23:51

the commercial companies. Talking about funding, and

23:53

it's interesting some other countries are doing

23:56

it in different ways, adding levies. So

23:58

either France, they're saying you have to

24:00

produce a certain amount of your shows

24:03

in France or use French teams. I

24:05

think in some of the Nordic countries,

24:07

there's like a 5% levy, so money

24:09

kind of goes through like the Danish

24:12

film institute to do it. Julie do

24:14

you think we should add on a...

24:16

a surcharge? I think so. I think

24:19

is this what we're looking at for

24:21

the BBC license for now? Could it

24:23

sort of saddle back on Netflix? I

24:26

mean, I think yes, I think you're

24:28

talking about, you know, this, it sounds

24:30

so kind of vast and unbeatable. They

24:33

throw money at these events and presentations

24:35

and the packaging. And it's, well, I

24:37

live with some, my husband has just

24:40

done a co-pro, he works with Charlie

24:42

Brook with Charlie. And you know, the

24:44

money sloshes around, you know, gift, it

24:46

feels like TV used to feel they're

24:49

kind of trying to make in terms

24:51

of the people making it. So the

24:53

kind of the shop window is absolutely

24:56

bursting in full. But I'm not sure

24:58

it's financially as brilliant for just like

25:00

someone to say writing for Netflix. As

25:03

a punter, looking at Netflix, it looks

25:05

to me unsustainable. It looks to me

25:07

unsustainable. It looks to me unsustainable. It

25:10

looks to me unsustainable. that they could

25:12

work with local broadcasters if they are

25:14

becoming this world-dominated force. We either have

25:16

to work with them or, you know,

25:19

be squished by them under the giant

25:21

red boot. We're talking about so prominence,

25:23

weren't we? And it's, again, ways of

25:26

forcing public service broadcasting on them slash

25:28

the audience. Is it all just a

25:30

bit naive and just, you know, what

25:33

we would like, but the consumers, are

25:35

they bothered? It's difficult, isn't it? Because

25:37

they do, I mean, you know, Netflix,

25:40

other streamers they do contribute to training

25:42

you know they've given money to screen

25:44

skills to help you know, various training

25:47

organizations and people to come into the

25:49

industry. I mean, that helps them obviously,

25:51

but you know, they do give back

25:53

in that way. And I guess there's,

25:56

I mean, I think Chris Bryan has

25:58

said there is unlikely to happen in

26:00

the UK. The BBC has in the

26:03

past has had to use some of

26:05

the license fee to for digital switch

26:07

over. So it's not like in this

26:10

country we haven't used, you know, creative

26:12

money to fund other things. So there

26:14

is this kind of. to help the

26:17

broadcasting ecology, it could happen. But then,

26:19

you know, on the other side, on

26:21

the other hand, you've got to sort

26:23

of say, well, you know, they've got

26:26

Netflix to Netflix doing a show with

26:28

the Simon. Why is one of the

26:30

other broadcasters not doing that? They're doing

26:33

the adolescence, the Jack Thorne drama with

26:35

Stephen Graham, which is brilliant. We only

26:37

saw some of it last night, but

26:40

these four episodes, and it's incredibly immersive.

26:42

It's like... theatre on TV, you know,

26:44

they showed us some shots of the

26:47

cameras being passed between the camera men,

26:49

so it's all done in one take,

26:51

each episode is done in one take.

26:53

That kind of innovation, you know, why

26:56

are the other companies not doing that?

26:58

But is that just because they've got

27:00

the cash to attract all those people

27:03

and BBC, they love to do it,

27:05

but they just can't afford it anymore.

27:07

Well, is that big budget? I don't

27:10

know, to do something like adolescence, to

27:12

be honest with you. It's a very

27:14

British story. It's about life crime. Scared

27:17

of experimenting with, you know, anything experimental

27:19

means they're risking not having eyeballs. That

27:21

is a good point. Yeah. There was

27:24

a lot of pressure on all sides

27:26

from the rise in streaming. It's interesting

27:28

about the license for some discussion about

27:30

adding on attacks to Netflix. government have

27:33

sort of paid themselves into a bit

27:35

of a corner by saying they don't

27:37

do anything with general taxation. We're sort

27:40

of back to the regular license for

27:42

your discussion of it's a dreadful way

27:44

to fund a TV network except for

27:47

all the other ways. Yeah, yeah, I

27:49

think you're right. I think they're... are

27:51

completely in a corner. I don't know

27:54

what the answer is because I just

27:56

don't have a grasp of like... the

27:58

other options what's better but as a

28:00

as a license payer and as someone

28:03

who values the BBC almost above everything

28:05

in the current media landscape I hope

28:07

to go on someone works it out

28:10

yeah yeah I don't imagine like some

28:12

like BBC reject a Netflix subscribers if

28:14

they saw a 10 pound surcharge on

28:17

their Netflix bill would be very happy

28:19

each month well that's the thing is

28:21

I mean the prices are going to

28:24

go up anyway aren't I think they

28:26

have in some other countries Netflix have

28:28

announced so Yeah, I mean if you

28:30

can't really have sort of a BBC

28:33

tax on a Netflix subscription, but I'm

28:35

sure there is a clever way and

28:37

maybe, you know, whoever is the next

28:40

BBC Director General and those people who

28:42

are being mentioned are people like, you

28:44

know, Jay Hunt or Charlotte Moore or,

28:47

you know, Alex Mann or... Interesting, they're

28:49

all... It's good. All women, actually, I

28:51

think Debretoness. So... maybe, you know, it

28:54

will be down to, when if Tim

28:56

Davy leaves, them to try and come

28:58

up with some kind of new way

29:01

of operating or having been outside the

29:03

BB, well, if Charlotte Moore gets it,

29:05

but, you know, I think there's a

29:07

fundamental understanding within the BBC that something

29:10

needs to change if not necessarily the

29:12

actual structure of life. But how it's

29:14

applied, whether or not there are more

29:17

caveats, it's means tested in some way.

29:19

I was just going to ask where

29:21

Netflix stands because you mentioned the launch

29:24

was heavily about the new live events.

29:26

They started a few sporting events here

29:28

where I couldn't care about sports, I'm

29:31

afraid I haven't seen any of them.

29:33

But as they become more of an

29:35

occasionally live, I mean, does that make

29:37

them a broadcaster as well? Like, does

29:40

that change their status as a streamer?

29:42

Yeah, I think, I mean, there are

29:44

some kind of rules around like Avod.

29:47

advertising video on demand services that sort

29:49

of a co-regulated with offcom. So Amazon

29:51

Prime's and there and I don't think

29:54

Netflix is but probably will end up

29:56

being because now there's out supported content.

29:58

So there's sort of slight embrace into

30:01

the UK. government regulatory system and you

30:03

could definitely see something happen. I keep

30:05

saying, and no one listens obviously, but

30:08

I keep thinking that council tax is

30:10

the best way to the licence fee.

30:12

Okay. Isn't that like in Germany? Yeah,

30:14

so other countries have done it, so

30:17

the slight benefit of the licence with

30:19

council tax is obviously... different people pay

30:21

different rates based on their house so

30:24

it becomes not like means tested but

30:26

a little bit connected to how much

30:28

money you have. I'm listening it's a

30:31

good idea. More of that. I think

30:33

you should be in charge. Yeah, yeah,

30:35

why have they not, why have we

30:38

seen policy not been in touch? I

30:40

don't think anybody wants to add any

30:42

taxes to anything I think that's probably

30:44

what it is. Julia, exciting news in

30:47

a couple of weeks that book will

30:49

be released. to the camera here, yes.

30:51

This is the pack shot. Yes. Yes,

30:54

it's called Don't Make Me Laugh. So

30:56

I'm a journalist, not that you could

30:58

tell. But yeah, I mostly write about

31:01

TV, comedy, and I've always really loved

31:03

comedy, and never really had any ambitions

31:05

to go into fiction. But the post...

31:08

keep saying post me too like it's

31:10

happened in the past tense I hate

31:12

when people do that but sort of

31:14

post 2017 when me too became a

31:17

thing and the people I know who

31:19

work in comedy started to talk more

31:21

openly about the the high density of

31:24

awful men working in stand-up comedy some

31:26

of them in front of the microphone

31:28

some of them promoters you know a

31:31

whole raft of them and it seemed

31:33

to be they were they were just

31:35

impossible to remove them from the industry

31:38

so embedded are they And so an

31:40

idea for a book started to churn

31:42

around then and I started writing it

31:45

in about 2019. So it's a heavily

31:47

fictionalised, it's entirely fictionalised. based on lots

31:49

of real stories I've heard because as

31:51

the years have gone on I've taken

31:54

a greater interest in this this aspect

31:56

of comedy the dark underbelly of the

31:58

industry and you know women have started

32:01

to talk to me I've investigated a

32:03

few stories myself and yeah with with

32:05

little else to do with them because

32:08

of you know the libel laws in

32:10

this country I just decided to yeah

32:12

write something made up. Give us a

32:15

plot teaser. started off with, so there's

32:17

a radio producer called Ali and she's

32:19

40, we meet her on her 40th

32:21

birthday, it's the worst day of her

32:24

life, everything's gone wrong, but on that

32:26

day when she's at her absolute lowest,

32:28

she meets this exciting stand-up comedian called

32:31

Ed Catchpole and they hatch a plan

32:33

to maybe work together, she's looking for

32:35

a comedian for her radio show, he

32:38

seems to offer her the way out,

32:40

their friendship starts to blur into something

32:42

else, and then she has a kind

32:45

of moment of revelation of revelation where

32:47

she realizes where she realizes Perhaps he,

32:49

and certainly the industry he occupies, is

32:52

full of dreadful people, most of the

32:54

men. All of the men, let's face

32:56

it. When you were, obviously you had

32:58

the idea, and you, in the comedy

33:01

world, partners in the comedy world, had

33:03

it always happened, but it was sort

33:05

of not re-talked about and then the

33:08

Me Too movement. sort of was a

33:10

catalyst for it being more discussion. I

33:12

think I think I think that seemed

33:15

to shake something loose shall we say

33:17

so it wasn't like a moment of

33:19

all at once and people now still

33:22

talk about is British comedy going to

33:24

have its me too moment hate the

33:26

use of that word and obviously you

33:28

know we were talking about Russell Brand

33:31

earlier the accusations against him the BBC

33:33

investigation has been sort of published today.

33:35

What Tara what was the line that

33:38

they they said? It says, it is

33:40

also clear that there were compliance in

33:42

adequacies on some of Russell Brown's radio

33:45

two shows which led to content being

33:47

aired that would not be broadcast today.

33:49

I mean, the kind of compliance in

33:52

adequacy. phrase, there's a lot of excuses

33:54

for a lot of people in a

33:56

lot of different worlds that would play

33:58

it down in that similar way. Yeah,

34:01

I think the problem with, I mean,

34:03

obviously these are all allegations, you know,

34:05

from a different area of other showbiz,

34:08

publishing, obviously we've had the Neil Gaiman

34:10

allegations more recently, the Noel Clark story,

34:12

as mentioned earlier, there are so many

34:15

of these stories, and a lot of

34:17

them... you know, they're not all dealing

34:19

with the same thing. Some of them

34:22

are dealing with criminal behavior, alleged criminal

34:24

behavior, some of them are dealing with

34:26

a gray area, which is kind of

34:29

what I'm more interested in. But the

34:31

kind of historical line is, you know,

34:33

we can't say it was different back

34:35

then, everyone just looked the other way.

34:38

So how do we, what do we

34:40

say that sounds acceptable? You know, it's

34:42

not compliance. It's that it's a culture

34:45

of looking the other way. If someone

34:47

is making money, kind of like in

34:49

a social group of silverback you don't

34:52

point to them and say what are

34:54

you doing with women you sort of

34:56

just pretend you don't see it and

34:59

that's that is what we've all done

35:01

it's not just men or women we've

35:03

all done that and there's always the

35:05

hope that since it's been raised obviously

35:08

it's all been fixed now and it

35:10

doesn't doesn't happen anymore and then and

35:12

then everything just keeps popping up And

35:15

it will, and it will, and I

35:17

think that's every, so the game and

35:19

story of everything is the most recent

35:22

one. And people are saying, oh no,

35:24

what, the reaction is, oh no, not

35:26

him, or oh him, obviously everyone knew.

35:29

Those are the two reactions, never anything

35:31

in between. And the kind of, you

35:33

know, oh gosh, these keep coming up,

35:36

when will it end? Well, it will

35:38

never end, because it's not about the

35:40

bad apples that keep on. Bad Apples

35:42

flying under the radar, I think they

35:45

can. But it's about the culture that,

35:47

and comedy specifically I think was so

35:49

interesting because the culture of comedy is

35:52

still, it's still fairly boysy, it's a

35:54

boys club. There are loads of women

35:56

and non-binary acts now becoming as successful

35:59

as the men, but it's taken a

36:01

long time and it's still, the fabric

36:03

of comedy is still a boys club.

36:06

It's going to take a huge cultural

36:08

shift for this not to keep popping

36:10

up, and it will do. And the

36:12

thing that shocked me the most in

36:15

comedy, I think, was young comedians, like

36:17

going to the Edinburgh Festival as I

36:19

do every year, completely love it, young

36:22

comedians, female comedians, doing their acts about

36:24

being sexually assaulted on the comedy circuit

36:26

at the Edinburgh Festival, being asked to

36:29

give oral sex to a promoter in

36:31

order to get their next gig. It's

36:33

not 20 years ago, it's now, and

36:36

that... without an HR department to stop

36:38

it, to stop it, to call it

36:40

into question. It's just not going to

36:42

change. And so the book is out

36:45

in two weeks, it is called, don't

36:47

make me laugh. It's brilliant. I read

36:49

it, I read it, I read it,

36:52

I read it, I read it, I

36:54

read it actually, I was on a

36:56

press trip to Canada and I got

36:59

jet lag because it was such a

37:01

good book, I didn't sleep, yeah, I

37:03

was laughing out loud on... And the

37:06

other thing I saw you doing was

37:08

FFS. Yes. Which is. explain it because

37:10

it's sort of like a video podcast

37:13

sub stack. I mean, yeah, what is

37:15

there a word for that? Everything is

37:17

that now, isn't it? It's like it's

37:19

visual, it's audio, it's sub stack. So

37:22

sub stack is really interesting at the

37:24

moment, I think. My husband who's a

37:26

comedy writer is also on sub stack

37:29

and it's obviously it started off as

37:31

being a great place to kind of

37:33

a spike pile, and then you couldn't

37:36

sell as a journalist, maybe you write

37:38

an article there. working the writers who

37:40

signed up to it, almost like a

37:43

kind of a beneficent cult. So if

37:45

they see your numbers going up and

37:47

that you're doing lots of interaction with

37:49

you and your audience is growing, they

37:52

kind of almost call you into the

37:54

headmaster's office and say, hey, how would

37:56

you like to monetize this and what

37:59

can we do to help you? Obviously,

38:01

because it benefits them too. So you

38:03

can podcast on sub stack. You can,

38:06

I think at the moment, you can

38:08

do a live video thing if there's

38:10

like one or two of you. you.

38:13

FFS is basically a Friday feminist salon,

38:15

which sounds terribly dry, but it's not,

38:17

I promise. It's me and two brilliant

38:20

women who do a podcast called Women

38:22

Are Mad, so Jennifer Cox and Selima

38:24

Saxton, and another brilliant writer called Anna

38:26

Wharton, who's written for everyone, great journalists,

38:29

and the four of us just kind

38:31

of meet up on a, a sensibly

38:33

on a Friday, we can't do it

38:36

live, because apparently we'd get trolled to

38:38

death by insull, so we're not going

38:40

to do that. it out on a

38:43

Friday. We're just we're just starting it.

38:45

So it's sort of because all four

38:47

of your on sub stack aren't you?

38:50

So it's sort of like a member

38:52

benefit. Yeah kind of. And I think

38:54

of the thought is basically the first

38:56

one is free. That's all good drug

38:59

dealers. And then yeah I think if

39:01

we can build some kind of an

39:03

audience or a community then maybe that's

39:06

a thing we can pay wall or

39:08

it depends really but I think you

39:10

know we're all journalists. for other ways

39:13

to do what we do. Yeah, so

39:15

it's really interesting. Obviously media clubs and

39:17

sub-stack as well, media club.com, sign up.

39:20

Some of the features they've added are

39:22

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slower about 40 gigabytes details. Okay,

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just enough time for the quiz. Let's see

40:21

how much you've been paying attention to the

40:23

week's media news. This week, it's entitled Back

40:25

of the Net. I don't like the sound

40:27

of this. All of us, not really sports

40:30

fans. Right, here we go. So, you can

40:32

buzz in your name if you know the

40:34

answer. So Tara, you will say, Tara. And

40:36

Julia, you'll say, Julia. Let's play back over

40:38

the net. All right, question number one. How

40:40

much is a 30 second Super Bowl Super

40:42

Bowl Super Bowl Super Bowl Super Bowl ad.

40:45

about eight million quid. They'd be ridiculous. A

40:47

million dollars, sorry dollars, bargain. Eight million dollars.

40:49

Eight million dollars. Eight million. Yes, for the

40:51

32nd spot, audience is expected to top 120

40:53

million in the US on the 9th of

40:55

February. 20 million in the US on the

40:57

9th of February. And it's gone up, so

41:00

I think they were selling it at 7

41:02

million, we're selling it out, and so they've

41:04

whacked it, the Hellmans ad last year. With

41:06

that, the Harry Met Sally, or is that

41:08

this? I keep thinking this now, is that

41:10

someone's done when Harry met Sally again with

41:12

them, is that last year? That's going to

41:15

be you this year, right? Oh, I see,

41:17

they've spoiled it by even... Well, they pre-sell

41:19

the ads now. Because they're value out of

41:21

8 million dollars. Yeah, because the ads themselves

41:23

now are, you know, bigger than football. And

41:25

it's Hellman's Mayonnaise, that was the one last

41:27

year, and the one last year, and the

41:30

one this year, and the one this year

41:32

as well, with the one this year as

41:34

well, with the Harry Met Sally, with the

41:36

Harry Met Sally, with the Harry Met Sally,

41:38

with the Harry Met Sally, with the Harry

41:40

Met Sally, with the Harry Met Sally, with

41:42

the Harry Met Sally, with the Harry Met

41:45

Sally, with the Harry Met Sally, with the

41:47

Harry Met Sally, with the Harry Met Sally,

41:49

with the Harry Met Sally, with the Harry

41:51

Met Sally, with the Harry Met Sally Tara.

41:53

Gotta sound like a girl of swats. Lisa,

41:55

Tara, Tara, Tara. Only because, I know, because

41:57

my son was lamenting some of this. Yeah,

42:00

so, Euro sports were coming. T-N-T sports. Which

42:02

why do they do this? I mean, I

42:04

mean, it's quite sad that the Eurosport Brown

42:06

has disappeared on 35 years, but it's

42:08

kind of, it's kind of moved with

42:10

the times. I mean, it's when, was

42:13

it B-T sport and Warner Brothers, you

42:15

know, when B-T and Warner's bought their

42:17

sports stuff, that's technical term stuff. And

42:19

they did T-N-T sports and it's the

42:22

kind of like leftover, you get Eurosport

42:24

on telly, but... I mean, maybe it's,

42:26

it works better saying TNT. It's, it

42:28

goes down better with the young. A

42:31

bit, also I think it's in preparation

42:33

for Max coming next year, so

42:35

like this super discovery plus streaming

42:38

service, so it gives them that

42:40

little sport vertical, but Europe's horribly

42:42

butch. We'll continue to exist in

42:45

Europe for the moment anyway. Right,

42:47

question number three, which radio station

42:49

is launching a fast channel?

42:51

Julia, it's Talk Sport, isn't it? Correct.

42:53

Why do I know that? Yeah, so Talk

42:55

Sport always done lots of TV stuff,

42:58

but they're jumping on the fast

43:00

bandwagon, doing deals with all the

43:02

TV's themselves to put the fast

43:04

channels on there. And I think

43:06

they've announced that Monzo are going

43:08

to be their first launch partner.

43:10

So, well done Tara, you've won.

43:12

I want to copy another copy

43:14

of your book. You get to

43:16

investigate which sports rights we should take

43:18

on in the media club if you

43:20

come out. some suggestions. Crumboles, it's

43:23

not big at the moment? Dance,

43:25

dance, dance. I think dance is

43:27

too popular for the Media Club.

43:29

Chess is getting really big now.

43:31

Let's take over, let's take over

43:33

chess. Anyway, thank you both for

43:35

joining us Julia and Tara. How can

43:38

people keep up with your work, Julia?

43:40

Oh God, it's like a diminishing ways

43:42

now, thanks to the social media going

43:45

evil fully now. I am still on

43:47

Instagram at JN Rayside and Sub

43:49

Stack is called... Yeah,

43:51

on Guardian, Walcast, RTS,

43:53

and yeah, on Blue

43:56

Sky in particular, but

43:58

always with her. ear

44:00

to the ground. Thank you both. And thank

44:02

you for joining us today. Remember you

44:04

can go to the media club.com and

44:06

sign up to our free sub stack

44:08

so we can keep you updated with

44:10

what the show is doing. My name

44:12

is Matt Degan, the producer was Matt

44:14

Hill, it was a rethink audio production

44:17

with video support from Podcast Discovery. And

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we'll see you next week. If

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S-L-E-E-E-P in all caps. So

45:49

retrospect is what historical events are we

45:51

ticking off on this week's run of

45:53

today and history on Monday how

45:55

17th century Europe got over its

45:58

Roman inferiority complex on Tuesday the day

46:00

the US military pulled out all

46:02

the stops for an international man

46:04

hunt. On Wednesday, haggis, whiskey, optional

46:07

deep fried Marsbar, it can only

46:09

be Burns Night. On Thursday, the

46:11

day a middle-aged Yorkshire farmer

46:13

became Britain's first reality TV

46:15

star. And on Friday, champs in

46:18

space! We discuss this and more

46:20

on today in history with the

46:22

retrospectors. Ten minutes, each weekday, wherever

46:24

you get your podcasts.