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0:33

Tonight on the Mehdi Hassan Show, decades

0:35

of progress destroyed by

0:37

six conservative justices whose rulings

0:40

were dishonest, misleading and filled with BS.

0:43

So is it not time for Democrats to rebalance

0:45

and expand this rogue Supreme Court?

0:48

Plus, when Donald Trump looks in a mirror,

0:50

does he see Richard Nixon staring

0:52

back at him? How one disgraced ex-president

0:55

paved the way for the latest disgraced

0:57

ex-president. And an MSNBC

1:00

exclusive tonight, Imran Khan, the former

1:02

prime minister of Pakistan,

1:03

joins me to discuss human

1:05

rights and democracy in his country and the case

1:07

against him, and why we in America

1:09

should all care.

1:18

Good evening. I'm Mehdi Hassan. Perhaps

1:21

the two most important numbers in American

1:23

politics right now are not 435 and 100, the

1:27

numbers of House numbers, the House

1:29

members and senators, respectively, in Congress, or 40

1:32

and 44, the polling numbers for Joe

1:35

Biden and Donald Trump, respectively, in

1:37

the latest YouGave survey.

1:39

But six and three,

1:41

that's the ideological division on the

1:43

highest court in the land, six conservative

1:45

justices versus three liberal

1:47

justices. And it's how the

1:50

all-powerful Supreme Court tend to

1:52

vote on a lot of the biggest issues that come before

1:54

them. Six against three. Before

1:57

we get to those cases tonight, cases that have upended

1:59

civil—

1:59

rights and economic policy in this country and

2:02

hurt tens of millions of Americans.

2:04

It's worth pointing out. Of those six

2:07

conservative justices, five

2:09

were appointed by presidents who lost a popular vote

2:11

before securing the Oval Office,

2:13

three by a president who incited an insurrection

2:16

against the United States, two Brett

2:18

Kavanaugh and Clarence Thomas

2:20

were credibly accused of sexual misconduct, which

2:22

they deny, two Neil Gorsuch

2:24

and Amy Coney Barrett sit in state seats that

2:27

were effectively stolen for them by Mitch McConnell.

2:30

And two, Clarence Thomas and Samuel Alito have

2:32

been just in recent weeks accused of corruption

2:35

and breaking ethics rules, which they both

2:37

deny. So when you see the Supreme

2:39

Court's approval rating is at its lowest

2:41

in modern American history, it's because

2:43

of stuff like that.

2:45

It's also because of the kind of shocking

2:47

and hugely consequential rulings, six-three

2:50

rulings that we saw just this

2:52

past week. Rulings that weren't

2:54

just decided in a way that people of good faith

2:56

can disagree about because of different

2:59

legal interpretations, but rulings

3:01

that were plainly dishonest,

3:03

misleading, without foundation

3:06

and riddled with BS. Let's

3:09

start with 303 Creative LLC versus

3:11

Ellenis. And the woman at the center of it,

3:13

Lori Smith, by now I'm sure you know that Smith

3:15

is the Colorado based website designer

3:18

who in 2016 filed a suit arguing

3:20

that free speech protections should entitle

3:22

her to deny services to a gay couple

3:25

seeking to hire her ahead of their wedding.

3:27

What you may not have heard is that it appears

3:29

Ms. Smith and the activist lawyers representing her

3:32

may have invented,

3:34

fabricated, manufactured an

3:36

imaginary gay couple, presumably to secure

3:39

standing before the court. Stewart,

3:41

one of the men whose name and contact information

3:43

appears in Smith's court filings, number

3:46

one has never met Lori Smith. Number two is straight,

3:49

not gay. He's been happily married to a woman

3:51

living in Oregon, not Colorado for

3:53

the past 15 years. And number three happens to

3:55

be a website designer himself, so not even sure

3:57

he ever needed Lori Smith's services.

3:59

Those outrageous revelations

4:02

came to light the day before the Supreme

4:04

Court issued its ruling on 303 creative,

4:06

meaning that conservative justices paid no heed

4:09

to the fact that they were about to use an apparently fraudulent

4:11

case to effectively make

4:13

queer American second-class citizens. That's

4:16

especially jarring because if you recall

4:18

section 2 article 3 of the Constitution

4:20

makes clear that the Supreme Court can only

4:22

rule on actual cases

4:24

and controversies. They're barred from ruling

4:27

on cases with hypotheticals and,

4:29

well, imaginary gays. The

4:32

robed reactionaries did not care, nor

4:34

did they care in their sixth-three ruling in

4:37

Biden v Nebraska, also this

4:39

past week, that the company at the heart

4:41

of the Republican legal attack on Joe Biden's

4:43

student debt cancellation plan, the

4:45

only company granted standing within the six

4:48

state coalitions suing Biden's administration,

4:51

Mohella, the Missouri Higher Education Loan

4:53

Authority,

4:54

did not file, did not solicit,

4:57

and wanted nothing to do with the case at

4:59

all.

5:00

And that's probably because an analysis

5:02

from the Roosevelt Institute and the Debt Collective

5:04

shows that Mohella stands to gain revenue if

5:06

debt cancellation goes forward. Not

5:09

to get too into the weeds, but to have standing

5:11

before the Supreme Court, a party needs to demonstrate

5:13

it's been harmed.

5:15

Last I checked, getting a raise does not

5:17

equate to being harmed, but I

5:19

digress. The final cases we

5:21

need to talk about are, of course, the two suits that

5:24

ended affirmative action in American colleges

5:26

in American higher education on Thursday, both

5:28

of which saw you'll be shocked to discover

5:30

six conservative justices ruling in

5:33

lockstep.

5:34

Rulings that will have devastating

5:36

and far-reaching consequences for the country, but

5:39

not as far-reaching as you might think, because as

5:41

Justice Sonia Sotomayor points out in her

5:43

dissent, the majority's opinion uses a

5:46

footnote,

5:47

yes, a footnote to completely exempt

5:49

military academies from their ruling.

5:52

Why? Beyond quote, potentially

5:55

distinct interests, Chief Justice

5:57

Roberts didn't care to explain. The conservative

5:59

majority puts on this big song and dance about

6:02

ending segregation and restoring balance

6:04

to the force by killing affirmative action,

6:07

but then they just leave it in place at military

6:10

academies for…

6:11

reasons? Let's review.

6:15

Within the three biggest decisions to come out of the court

6:17

this week, one involved a party that didn't

6:19

exist, one involved a party that

6:21

had no interest in being there, and

6:23

one involved a majority opinion that utterly contradicts

6:25

itself in a footnote.

6:28

So my question is Democrats,

6:30

what are you going to do about all this?

6:33

Do you worry that without

6:36

court reform, this conservative

6:39

majority is too young and

6:41

too conservative that they might do too much

6:43

harm?

6:44

Well, I think they may do too much harm,

6:47

but I

6:49

think if we start the process of trying to expand

6:52

the court, we're going to politicise

6:55

it maybe forever in a way that

6:58

is not healthy.

7:00

Earth to President Biden, that

7:03

ship has sailed. You're bringing a butter

7:05

knife to a bazooka fight, sir,

7:08

worrying about politicising the court while

7:10

even New York Times' own in-house

7:12

conservative columnist, Ross Douthat, is

7:15

musing about the Chief Justice being a shadow

7:17

president. Quote, Roberts acts in many

7:19

ways like the far-sighted Republican president

7:21

we haven't had this century, ideological

7:23

but careful, moderating his own side's demands

7:26

but still seeking its advantage.

7:29

Chief Justice of the Supreme Court is not supposed to be

7:31

a Republican president. Democrats,

7:34

it's time to wake up and smell the Roe v. Wade-settle

7:37

presidents destroyed around you.

7:39

This is a rogue political institution,

7:42

not a neutral court, and it's not going to write

7:44

itself. So yes, Democrats,

7:46

you can complain about the Supreme Court, you can say

7:48

this isn't normal, it isn't. But unless

7:50

you're willing to call for court reform, court

7:53

expansion, court rebalancing,

7:55

your words have as much value and import

7:58

as Clarence Thomas' financial journey. disclosure

8:00

forms.

8:29

Will you look at court reform again?

8:51

You were on that commission. I believe

8:53

you started off skeptical of court expansion,

8:55

but now you think that's the only way to save the Supreme

8:57

Court and rebalance it?

9:01

I do. Yes. So

9:03

I started off skeptical of court expansion. I started off skeptical

9:05

of term limits. I ended up convinced first

9:07

that we can do term limits by statute. We

9:10

don't need a constitutional amendment and we certainly should

9:12

do that. I think pretty much

9:14

everyone who's thought about it agrees that would improve

9:16

the institution. But I also do think

9:19

the situation is so urgent that

9:21

we should do court expansion too, because

9:23

I think that this court is attacking the democratic

9:26

process. That's what disturbs me the most. And

9:28

if we let this court lock in minority

9:31

control, we may never get it back.

9:35

It's a very good point. There was a recent study which suggests it would take

9:37

decades for Democrats to appoint a

9:39

majority of members. Jen, you support court

9:41

reform, things like term limits, but

9:43

the president you support doesn't,

9:46

not really. And I believe you were part of a group

9:48

of journalists who met with him privately off the record

9:50

earlier this week. What's he thinking?

9:53

What would he budge on this, do you think?

9:55

Well, unfortunately, that was before

9:57

these decisions, so we didn't have a chance to grill

10:00

him on it. But I will

10:02

say this and this is key. It

10:04

is not a right left problem.

10:07

It is not even an attack on modernity.

10:10

This is an attack on democracy.

10:13

The court is acting in

10:15

an illegitimate fashion. What

10:17

that means is it is displacing

10:20

the political elected branches. That

10:22

is a fundamental promise

10:24

of democracy. We elect the leaders.

10:26

They actually get to serve unlike the mob

10:28

that wanted to- wreck

10:30

the election in two thousand twenty. And

10:32

they get to make decisions and be accountable

10:35

to us the voters. This court

10:37

is not doing this- you did

10:40

laid out perfectly. The chicanery

10:43

the dishonesty in coming

10:45

up with these cases that is not acting

10:47

like a court that is not judging

10:49

that something else and that's partisan

10:51

politics. So whatever you. Think

10:54

of the decisions you like them you don't like them

10:56

that's beside the point this is not

10:58

a court. And as a result

11:01

it's not a question of rebalancing it's

11:03

a question of correcting and making the

11:05

court back into a court. It's transforming

11:07

it from something that is illegitimate into

11:10

something that would be legitimate and operate

11:12

but genuine hearing. I agree with everything

11:14

you're saying your analysis is spot on but Joe

11:16

Biden is telling. Nicole Wallace oh

11:18

it might be too political if we do anything about it it's already

11:21

political.

11:22

Yes it is and listen I would

11:24

commend it Democrats and anyone else interested

11:27

in democracy. To not worry about

11:29

Joe Biden too much. This

11:31

is going to take more than one election is going to

11:33

take more than one reform this is a long

11:36

term project Republicans set out

11:38

to change the court over decades.

11:41

Democrats have to be as solid

11:43

and as committed to long term education

11:46

of the public electing or

11:48

bold enough to do these reforms Joe Biden may not

11:51

be the president to do it quite frankly he's

11:53

better than the alternative but

11:55

he may not be the

11:55

guy. I'm not sure

11:58

we have the time for a long term judicial.

11:59

reform product the way these guys are motoring

12:02

along. Kermit, you're a law professor. How

12:04

would you explain to your law students how

12:07

it is the justices ruled on a case, 303 Creative,

12:10

in which they knew that the man who supposedly

12:13

requested a gay wedding website never made that request

12:15

and isn't gay?

12:16

I mean, explain to our viewers how

12:19

they could just get away with that ruling knowing what we all

12:21

now know. I don't understand.

12:24

Well, how can they get away with it? The answer

12:26

is they're the Supreme Court. And as Justice

12:28

Robert Jackson once said, they're not

12:31

final because they're infallible. They're infallible

12:33

because they're final. There's no court that

12:35

can reverse them. So no

12:38

one can stop them from what they're

12:40

doing in terms of another

12:42

court. But ultimately the American

12:44

people are supposed to be in control in this

12:47

country. We're supposed to have

12:49

a democracy.

12:50

And so that's why it's so important

12:52

for the political branches that represent the American

12:55

people to assert themselves against

12:57

this court and not just

13:00

let it impose its whims in made up

13:02

cases.

13:03

Yes. And Jen, one last quick question before we run

13:06

out of time. I have to ask you, what did you make of the sheer arrogance,

13:09

hubris, temerity of Chief Justice John

13:11

Roberts in his student opinion, suggesting

13:13

that the three liberal justices are being mean

13:15

to the conservatives in their dissent and

13:17

misleading the public on the proper role of the court.

13:20

Yes, for the temerity of pointing

13:22

out that in interpreting a statute

13:25

using a completely made up gimmick

13:28

called the major questions doctrine,

13:31

that when he read the statute, he ignored

13:33

the word wave. That is what

13:35

the president did. They waved the

13:37

student debt. Wave was in

13:39

the statute. Wave was not a word that Chief

13:42

Justice Roberts liked. So wave didn't

13:44

come up in his opinion. That's how

13:46

dishonest it is. And sure, he's

13:48

thin skinned, he's ordinary.

13:50

He's very fussy when

13:52

the three justices in the minority had

13:55

the temerity to point out the emperor

13:57

has no clothes. The emperor is

13:59

becoming

13:59

emperor in reality. Yeah,

14:03

we're going to take away all your rights and don't you dare

14:05

complain about it. Kermit Roosevelt and Jennifer

14:07

Rubin, thank you both for your analysis. Appreciate

14:10

it.

14:11

Coming up after the break, the grand jury hearing

14:13

evidence in the Trump classified documents case

14:16

is still meeting despite the ex-president's indictment.

14:19

Could more indictments be on the way? And how Nixonian

14:22

is all of this?

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15:17

We have a thug prosecutor

15:20

named

15:20

Smith, Jack Smith.

15:22

He's a thug. I had every right

15:25

to have these documents, personal belongings,

15:27

and boxes. I had absolute right to have them.

15:32

That was Donald J. Trump doing his usual

15:34

airing of grievances at his first campaign

15:36

rally since he was indicted for the second time

15:39

under the Espionage Act over his mishandling of

15:41

classified documents. Of course, Trump

15:43

attacking the people investigating him is nothing new.

15:46

He made lifelong Republican Robert Mueller

15:48

into public enemy number one with his base.

15:51

Because in Trump's world, he's never wrong. In

15:53

Trump's world, he's always unfairly investigated.

15:56

In Trump's world, he's entitled to take classified

15:58

documents and keep them for as

15:59

As long as he wants. He's not, by the way. So

16:02

where could Trump have gotten this imperial

16:05

attitude towards government secrets?

16:07

That because he was once president,

16:09

he can do whatever he wants without consequence.

16:12

Perhaps he learned it from another disgraced former Republican

16:15

president, Richard Nixon, who when asked by British

16:17

journalist David Frost in 1977 why

16:19

he authorized illegal actions against anti-Vietnam

16:22

War protesters, Nixon infamously

16:24

replied, well, when the president does it,

16:27

that means it is not illegal. As

16:29

NBC News presidential historian Michael Beschloss

16:32

wrote recently on Twitter, quote, had

16:34

President Ford not granted Nixon an immediate

16:36

full free and absolute pardon in 1974, later presidents

16:40

might not have felt so licensed to break the

16:42

law. Michael Beschloss joins

16:45

me now, as does Jill Weinbanks,

16:47

MSNBC legal analyst who served as

16:49

one of the assistant prosecutors during the Watergate

16:51

scandal. Thank you both for coming back

16:53

on the show. Michael, let's start with that tweet you wrote.

16:56

Do you really believe that had Ford not

16:58

pardon Nixon, Trump

16:59

wouldn't have felt so emboldened

17:02

to break the law? I mean, this is Trump we're talking

17:04

about, a man who doesn't give a damn about precedent

17:06

or norms.

17:08

I do. And

17:10

my good friend Jill from Chicago, where

17:13

we both come from, Jill is still

17:15

there, has better judgment, but maybe

17:17

we both have Midwestern common

17:19

sense. And that would lead me to say

17:22

that if Jill and her colleagues

17:24

on the Watergate special prosecution force

17:27

had gotten to indict Nixon as

17:29

they wanted to do and Nick and

17:31

Ford had not pardoned him 30 days

17:34

after Nixon left office, Nixon

17:37

might at least have gotten to the brink of a trial

17:39

and been fingerprinted and been

17:41

indicted and been seen going into court

17:44

and maybe the trial might have begun. And

17:46

if that had happened, if Nixon had been that close

17:48

to prison, as I think Jill and I

17:51

agree, he would have been in such

17:53

a circumstance. Donald Trump might

17:55

not have been so reckless about breaking

17:58

the law as president and as

17:59

President. Jill,

18:02

do you agree with that? And also, do

18:04

you believe that Trump makes Nixon

18:06

look like a choir boy when it comes to criming?

18:11

So I do agree with Michael. There's no

18:13

question that I fought at

18:15

the time to indict the president, both

18:18

as a sitting president and

18:20

as a resigned

18:22

former president, someone who was just

18:24

a citizen. Unfortunately, Leon

18:27

Jaworski opposed

18:29

both efforts. And in the conversations

18:32

that were going on to bring

18:34

an indictment after he left office,

18:37

he got pardoned. And a pardon

18:39

is absolute and forever. So we

18:41

were unable to do that. And

18:43

even though Donald Trump is a

18:46

person with no shame and no

18:49

recognition or value to the

18:51

laws, I do think the

18:53

reality of Nixon, having

18:56

been held accountable, might have

18:58

sent a message to him that would

19:00

have had him under control,

19:03

would have had him listening to his lawyers

19:05

who said, you can't do these things. So

19:08

it would have made a difference. Do I

19:10

think it makes Nixon look like a

19:12

choir boy? No. I often

19:14

think it is worse because I did not feel

19:17

that democracy was at stake

19:18

during Watergate. I

19:21

feel democracy is at stake now.

19:23

I think that the big problem is really

19:26

Fox News and all the other social media

19:29

that have created this environment

19:31

of alternative reality.

19:33

And that's what the real problem is, is that there

19:35

are millions of people who actually believe

19:38

the blatant lies and

19:40

do not pay any attention to what are facts.

19:43

And you laid them out. I mean, we had 60

19:46

cases thrown out that there was no fraud

19:48

in the election,

19:49

but people still believe the election was stolen

19:52

because Donald Trump says it loud and says it

19:54

often. And it goes to your first segment

19:57

tonight about what has to happen to the Supreme

19:59

Court.

19:59

And whether we can let them keep getting

20:02

away with throwing out the path. When

20:05

they, during the confirmations, all say, starry,

20:07

decisive. Yes, we believe in precedent. And

20:09

then they just ignore it.

20:11

So, I think we have a lot to accomplish

20:13

in terms of democracy.

20:16

Gilles, it's interesting you mentioned Fox, because

20:19

of course, Roger Ailes, the founder of Fox, said at the time

20:21

that one of the reasons he set up Fox is

20:23

because he saw what happened to his boss, Nixon. He never wanted

20:25

it to happen to a Republican president again. And it

20:27

worked. Michael, it's interesting that

20:30

Gilles also mentioned wanting

20:32

to go after Nixon while he was a sitting president.

20:34

And I wonder, is there an analogy, do you

20:36

think, between the impact

20:39

of Gerald Ford pardoning Nixon and

20:42

Joe Biden so far refusing

20:44

to get rid of the DOJ guidance that says you

20:46

can't indict a sitting president? Is President

20:48

Biden doing enough to prevent

20:50

future Trump's or Trump himself in a

20:53

second term from brazenly breaking

20:55

the law?

20:56

I don't think so in the sense that I

20:58

think that Office of Legal Counsel ruling

21:01

of the early 1970s, which

21:03

said that

21:05

a sitting president cannot be indicted. No,

21:07

that was just a ruling from the Nixon and Justice

21:10

Department. Why are we going by

21:12

this 50 years later as if

21:14

this is writ that comes down from a

21:16

mountain? Of course, sitting president

21:18

should be vulnerable to indict an

21:21

indictment. Otherwise, the

21:23

White House is a free crime zone.

21:26

Indeed, Gilles, Trump has already been indicted

21:29

for his handling of mishandling of top secret

21:31

documents. But does that, you know, that doesn't

21:33

mean Jack Smith is through with him on that. The New York Times

21:35

reported this week a federal grand jury in Miami

21:37

has issued more subpoenas in recent days indicating

21:40

the probe is expanding beyond the initial charges

21:42

levied against Trump and his aide

21:44

turned co-defendant, whatnot. How

21:47

strong does this case look to you, Gilles? And

21:49

how concerned are you that a Florida jury

21:51

that includes loyal Trump supporters will

21:53

never agree on a guilty verdict, no matter how strong

21:55

the case is?

21:57

Let me start with your latter point, which

21:59

is. is, is there going to be a hung jury?

22:02

That is a risk in Florida.

22:05

There's no question that in particularly

22:07

in Fort Pierce, which is heavily read,

22:10

that there could be a hung

22:12

jury.

22:12

There is no way that there will

22:14

be an acquittal. And I say that

22:17

because jurors take very seriously

22:19

the guidance from the judge

22:21

that says you must judge on the evidence

22:24

in this courtroom. And based on

22:26

what's already publicly known about the

22:28

evidence, the case is very strong.

22:31

And there are cases in New Jersey

22:33

waiting to happen. I can't imagine

22:36

based on the tape that there won't be

22:38

an indictment in New Jersey for

22:40

showing a classified document to

22:42

a person without security.

22:45

So I think there's more to come classified

22:48

documents.

22:50

There is more to come. We're almost out of time. Michael,

22:52

I want to give the last word to you. Do

22:54

you believe as a historian of the presidency

22:57

that the presidency, the United States government, United

22:59

States democracy can survive

23:02

a second Donald Trump term?

23:05

I think it is really questionable.

23:07

And the answer is maybe no, because

23:09

you've got a president who will go

23:11

wild to do what he began to do

23:14

in what was a first term under that

23:16

scenario. Tried to

23:18

expand the presidency's power

23:21

beyond all bounds. Tried to

23:23

wreck our democracy.

23:25

Broke law.

23:26

Finally, in the end, didn't get to do

23:28

it on the 6th of January, but he's

23:30

had four years to learn how to do it a lot better.

23:33

And he's the one who's telling us this

23:35

is going to be, if I'm reelected, a presidency

23:38

of retribution.

23:40

And if that happens, we are in

23:42

danger of losing our democracy in a

23:44

way that we have not seen before. That

23:49

is depressing, but important to hear. Michael Beschloss, Jill

23:51

Weinbanks, as ever. Thank you both.

23:55

Thank you. Coming up, an update on the manhunt

23:58

for that mass shooter who injured almost

23:59

30 people

24:01

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24:38

The battle over a woman's right to choose. Global

24:41

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24:43

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25:16

Coming up, my exclusive interview with Imran

25:18

Khan, the former prime minister of Pakistan. Khan

25:21

says his country's military has been weaponized

25:23

against him. I ask you about the accusations

25:25

that he too weaponized the military when he was

25:27

in power. But first, Richard Louis

25:29

is here with the headlines. Good evening, Richard. Good

25:31

evening to you, Mehdi. Stories we're watching for you this hour.

25:34

Police are searching for a mass shooter who opened fire

25:36

overnight at a block party in Baltimore.

25:39

Thirty people were shot, including 18-year-old

25:41

woman and a 20-year-old man who were killed

25:43

there. At least three are in critical condition.

25:46

And France protests continue near Paris

25:48

for a sixth day following the death of

25:50

a 17-year-old shot by police

25:52

during a traffic stop. Forty-five thousand

25:54

police officers took to the streets to control

25:56

crowds. Over 2,000 people

25:58

have been detained over the past week. six days with an

26:01

average age of 17 years old. In

26:03

downtown LA, hotel workers walking

26:06

off the job on one of the busiest weekends of

26:08

the year, they're demanding a $5

26:10

hourly raise, improved benefits

26:13

and better working conditions. A union

26:15

rep said there are 15,000 members

26:17

spanning across 65 hotels. More than

26:20

many hostens show for you right after the spray.

26:31

Why should Americans care about the

26:33

ongoing political turmoil and violence

26:35

in Pakistan right now?

26:37

Well, it's the fifth biggest country in the world.

26:39

It's got nuclear weapons, it

26:41

was one of the front lines in the so-called war on terror

26:44

and it's currently considered by our government to

26:46

be a major non-NATO ally.

26:49

And yet ever since Imran Khan, the legendary

26:51

Pakistani cricketer turned populist politician,

26:54

was ejected from the Prime Minister's office last

26:56

year in a very controversial parliamentary vote

26:58

of no confidence. That country has been

27:00

in the midst of an historic political and economic

27:03

crisis. Khan, who remains hugely

27:05

popular inside of Pakistan, has had more

27:07

than a hundred criminal cases thrown at him from

27:10

corruption to terrorism to blasphemy.

27:13

And there has also been a vicious crackdown against

27:15

members of his own political party. Khan's

27:17

violent arrest outside a courthouse in

27:19

May, later deemed by Pakistan's Supreme

27:21

Court to be illegal, led to

27:24

mass protests to violence and death across

27:26

the country. According to Human Rights Watch,

27:28

while some of Khan's supporters did use violence

27:31

and attacked property and the police, the

27:33

Pakistani authorities quote used excessive

27:35

force against protesters, restricted

27:37

access to the internet and to social media and

27:40

carried out mass arrests. More than 4,000 people

27:42

detained, many of

27:44

them arbitrarily. But what was so

27:46

stunning about those protests is that they

27:48

weren't just anti-government,

27:49

they even challenged

27:51

the dominance of the once revered, almost

27:53

untouchable, Pakistani army.

27:56

See, that country of more than 250

27:58

million people, which has long aspired to

28:00

be a functioning democracy has been

28:02

ruled directly or indirectly by the

28:04

military for most of its 75 years

28:07

of independence. Currently, the Pakistani

28:09

military has banned any mention of Imran Khan's name

28:11

on air. Prominent journalists have just

28:14

disappeared.

28:15

Even Pakistani-American fashion designer Khattida

28:17

Shah has been detained for taking part

28:19

in the protests. And Khan himself,

28:22

who survived an assassination attempt last November,

28:24

is worried for his own life.

28:26

The former prime minister, who is accused of cozying

28:29

up to Vladimir Putin and Xi Jinping,

28:32

hasn't had much support, though, from Western capitals.

28:34

And he himself accused the Biden administration

28:36

of being behind a coup against him, an allegation

28:39

that the State Department has denied and that Khan

28:42

has since backed away from. So,

28:44

what should America be doing here?

28:46

And what does the future hold for Pakistan

28:49

and for Imran Khan? Earlier,

28:51

I spoke to the former prime minister of Pakistan

28:53

and chairman of the political party, the PTI.

28:59

Imran Khan, thank you for coming

29:01

on the show. You are the former prime minister

29:04

of Pakistan. Explain to our

29:06

viewers watching in America tonight what you

29:08

believe is the state of democracy,

29:10

of freedom, of human rights in

29:13

Pakistan tonight. How bad is it?

29:17

Well, maybe for some of

29:19

us who've seen the evolution of our democracy

29:22

over the last, especially 20 years,

29:25

because you saw General Musharraf's martial

29:27

law. And then in

29:29

that martial law, we saw what

29:31

was called the lawyers movement for the independence

29:34

of judiciary. And during that

29:36

time, the media asserted its independence.

29:39

So we were moving towards a democratic system.

29:42

Two governments came in, stood

29:45

for five years and then left elections

29:47

and other government took over. So

29:49

we're moving towards, you know, this

29:53

what we hope would be genuine

29:55

democracy, because normally we had a hybrid

29:57

system,

29:58

even when the army was not in power.

29:59

but they really control the levers from behind.

30:03

But what is happening right now is

30:07

a total dismantling of our democracy.

30:10

It's not a question of what is happening

30:12

to my party or to me or these 170

30:15

cases and so on,

30:18

whether I'm in jail or these are

30:20

not one, but two assassination attempts

30:22

on me. It's what is happening

30:25

to the future of this country if

30:27

our democracy is disbanding, because

30:31

rule of law, democracy and prosperity

30:34

go hand in hand. When

30:36

you do not have a rule

30:38

of law, which is what is happening now, this might

30:41

is right, there's an undeclared

30:43

martial law in Pakistan, then

30:46

there's darkness ahead. We

30:48

are standing on the edge of darkness.

30:51

So what is your message to the American government

30:53

tonight, to President Joe Biden? Because on the one

30:56

hand, you have urged the US to speak

30:58

out in the name of democracy and human

31:00

rights against what's happening in Pakistan

31:02

right now. But you've also accused the US

31:04

of being behind a quote, foreign conspiracy,

31:07

a coup against you. You've repeatedly called

31:09

what happened to you quote, US backed

31:11

regime change.

31:14

Well, I mean, the facts about

31:17

what happened,

31:18

about me receiving a cipher,

31:21

coded message from our

31:23

ambassador in Washington.

31:25

This is

31:27

6th March 22, which

31:30

said that the American official undersecretary

31:32

of state telling the ambassador in an official

31:35

meeting, that unless you get rid of

31:37

your grand fan, in a vote of

31:39

no confidence, there'll be consequences. And

31:41

then the vote of confidence, no

31:44

confidence takes place the next day.

31:45

And within weeks, my government is gone. So

31:48

I merely stated the facts. And

31:50

by the way, put the cipher

31:53

in front of the cabinet. In

31:56

front of the National Security

31:58

Council. And... Then there was

32:00

an official protest from Pakistan for

32:03

interfering in internal affairs. But

32:05

that's behind me. Look, all

32:08

I want the US to do

32:10

is they professed aims

32:13

of so-called Western

32:15

values of democracy, rule of

32:18

law, human rights. They shouldn't

32:20

worry about what is happening to me. They should worry

32:22

about 250 million people. The

32:26

whole democratic structure is being wound

32:29

up. And as I said, we

32:31

have an undeclared martial law. Surely

32:34

this is not what the Western

32:36

countries should want. They should just speak out

32:38

against it.

32:41

So obviously the Biden administration denies being

32:44

involved in your ejection from power.

32:46

The current Pakistani government is

32:48

clearly afraid of you. Hence the mass

32:51

arrests, the talk of banning your party, the

32:53

more than 150 legal cases against you. You're

32:56

a bigger threat to the country than Indian Prime

32:58

Minister Narendra Modi rather ridiculously.

33:00

Do you believe that if elections are held

33:03

on time in October of this year, that

33:05

your besieged party can

33:07

still win and that you can still be prime minister

33:09

again? Surely that's a pipe dream now.

33:13

Look, since I've been ousted,

33:16

out of the 37 by-elections

33:18

held, 30 have been swept

33:20

by my party despite

33:23

the total support of the establishment

33:25

to these 12 party coalition.

33:27

So clearly they are scared.

33:29

This whole thing which

33:31

happened to us after 9th May when I was

33:33

abducted

33:34

from within the high court, abduction,

33:37

and the way that they abducted

33:40

me as if I was some terrorist. So

33:42

the reaction to that was used as a

33:44

way of just clamping

33:47

down, crack down on my party. He

33:49

equated to what Hitler did after

33:51

the 1933 burning of

33:54

the German parliament. He cracked

33:56

down on the communists and wiped them out.

33:58

This is what's happening now. How could

34:00

a few cases of arson

34:03

be made a reason for 5,000

34:06

or 10,000 of our workers in jail? And

34:09

every day people are being put in. My entire

34:11

leadership is in jail.

34:12

The only way the leadership can come

34:14

out of jail if they're renounced becomes

34:17

being part of my party.

34:18

So it's never happened in this country before. Women

34:21

have never been put in jail. The entire

34:24

media has been puzzled.

34:27

The military, which is the real

34:29

power in Pakistan, is obviously out to get you. It was

34:31

army rangers who arrested you outside the courthouse,

34:33

not police. It's military officials

34:36

who have reportedly told Pakistani

34:38

journalists not to mention your name on air. Yet your

34:40

critics would say that you came to

34:42

power in 2018. Everyone knows

34:44

this in alliance with that same military, that

34:46

you for years had close relations with

34:48

top generals going all the way back to Hamid Ghul, the former

34:51

head of the Pakistani ISI. So

34:53

the critics would say it's ironic to see

34:55

you now criticizing the same army and

34:57

intelligence chiefs who you were once

34:59

fine with and who helped put you in power in the

35:01

first place. Firstly,

35:04

just to correct you, I was abducted

35:07

by the rangers from within the court.

35:10

I was actually sitting in the courtroom. So

35:13

just to correct you.

35:14

And the Supreme Court declared it illegal.

35:17

And so that's why I was bailed out.

35:20

In Pakistan,

35:24

the military has directly or

35:26

indirectly ruled Pakistan for 70 years,

35:28

three times martial

35:30

law

35:31

and then the other times

35:33

because they're entrenched.

35:35

And so whoever does politics

35:38

has to work with them. Now, when

35:41

I came to power in 2018, it wasn't

35:44

because the military engineered to get me to

35:47

power. They didn't oppose me. Big difference.

35:50

In 2013, before that, they

35:52

actually helped the Vashti get into power and

35:54

we proved in the in

35:56

the rigged elections in 2018. We

35:59

asked everyone.

35:59

open the elections because we came

36:02

through proper free and fair elections.

36:04

In fact, we felt we lost some seats.

36:06

But

36:07

the thing is I worked with the military. I

36:09

mean, I work military means the army chief.

36:12

So I worked pretty well with him. The main

36:16

problem was,

36:17

you see, I my whole thing is rule

36:19

of law. I started my movement for

36:21

justice 27 years ago,

36:23

wanting to bring the powerful mafia,

36:26

the political mafia is under the law. This

36:29

is where the problem became. You know,

36:31

he didn't think corruption was that big a thing.

36:34

You know, he wasn't interested in and

36:36

if he had and he

36:37

had the veto power. So that's

36:39

where I failed. Although we succeeded economically,

36:42

we

36:42

did brilliantly dealing with the

36:44

pandemic.

36:45

But I failed in the rule

36:48

of law. And I think that's where the problems began.

36:50

Up

36:53

next, what about the criticisms

36:55

of Imran Khan's own time in

36:57

office? Don't go away.

37:04

Before the break, I was speaking with former prime

37:06

minister of Pakistan, Imran Khan. We discussed

37:08

the state of democracy in his country and

37:10

his message to the American government.

37:12

But what about the criticisms he's

37:14

faced from his own time in office? Here's

37:17

the rest of my interview with him.

37:19

You have been

37:21

praised in your handling of the pandemic. And

37:23

it's interesting to hear you saying you failed in terms of the military.

37:26

But while there are many Pakistanis who still support

37:28

you, you're hugely popular. A lot of Pakistanis

37:30

say, hold on. When you were in government,

37:32

you were fine with the military. You say none

37:35

of this stuff has happened before. But you locked

37:37

up opposition leaders, you locked

37:39

up journalists, you crack down on the press.

37:42

And now you're getting upset that the same is being

37:44

done to you.

37:46

Look, you know, the term

37:50

false equivalence, you

37:52

cannot compare what was going on

37:54

in my time to this. In fact,

37:57

General Musharraf's martial law

40:00

We didn't even bring those laws in. But

40:02

again, I mean, there is no comparison

40:05

what is happening right now. My

40:07

name cannot be mentioned on media. I

40:10

think- Hold on, hold on, hold

40:12

on. When you were Prime Minister, Nawaz Sharif's name

40:14

couldn't be mentioned on air either. That's what your critics

40:16

would say. You did the same thing to Nawaz Sharif. Not

40:19

at all. No, look, Nawaz Sharif

40:21

was convicted by the Supreme

40:24

Court.

40:25

He then faked these illnesses and

40:27

somehow managed to

40:29

bring out these tests which said he was

40:31

about to die.

40:33

Then his brother gave an affidavit that

40:35

he's just going two weeks for treatment to come

40:37

back. A convict. He

40:39

goes to England and suddenly all

40:41

illnesses disappear and then he starts giving

40:44

lectures to Pakistan. He was a convict.

40:47

You can't compare what was

40:49

happening to me. I'm not convicted

40:51

of anything. But the media couldn't say his name.

40:53

I'm no fan of Nawaz Sharif. I'm just saying his name

40:55

couldn't be mentioned on air. We're almost out of time, but

40:58

I got to ask, do you have any regrets

41:00

about what you did in office, especially with the military,

41:03

given what the military is now doing against you? What

41:05

would you go back and do differently if you could? Last

41:07

question.

41:08

Well, just

41:10

firstly, given what happened

41:14

after I came into power,

41:16

I should have actually, with a weak coalition

41:19

government, I

41:21

should not have taken power. I should have gone

41:23

for elections again. Because

41:25

you can't bring reforms and changes, and

41:28

especially rule of law, if you have a weak

41:30

government. And if I have to do it

41:32

again, look, this hybrid

41:35

system cannot work.

41:37

If you are an elected prime minister,

41:39

you must have the authority

41:41

to implement your reforms. It cannot

41:43

work that you have the responsibility because

41:45

you're elected, but the authority

41:48

is shared and the

41:50

army team has a veto power.

41:52

This sort of system is due

41:54

to failure, and Pakistan, what it faces

41:56

right now,

41:58

huge economic problems. worst

42:00

economic situation in our country. Unless

42:02

we fix the governance

42:05

system through rule of law, I'm

42:07

afraid, you know, the country is

42:10

on the edge of darkness. There

42:13

is no doubt there is a massive political

42:15

and economic crisis in Pakistan right now. We

42:17

appreciate you taking time out to speak to us, and

42:19

I do hope you stay safe. Thank you. Imran

42:22

Khan, former prime minister of Pakistan, thank you.

42:26

Coming up at the top of the

42:28

hour with Eamon Mulyuddin, Michelle Goldberg,

42:31

the NAACP's Wisdom Cole, and Professor

42:33

Catherine Franke, we'll discuss how

42:35

the Supreme Court is chipping away at our rights

42:38

and civil liberty, little by little, until

42:40

there's really nothing left. That's tonight, 9

42:43

p.m. Eastern, live right here on MSNBC.

42:45

Oh, and don't forget, you can listen to The Mehdi Hassan

42:48

Show anytime, free, wherever

42:50

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42:52

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