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0:32

Tonight on the Mehdi Hassan Show, from

0:35

Nixon to Trump, the cost

0:37

of loyalty to a criminal president. We'll

0:39

get into the new charges and the new defendant

0:42

in the classified documents case. Plus,

0:44

conservative Justice Samuel Alito says the

0:46

Supreme Court can't be regulated sounding

0:49

like someone who has not read the Constitution.

0:52

Just stop. That's

0:54

the message from some black conservatives to

0:56

Ron DeSantis as he defends

0:58

teaching the benefits of slavery.

1:08

Good evening, I'm Mehdi Hassan. Have

1:11

you heard of the Rosemary Woods stretch?

1:14

It's named after this woman, Rosemary Woods, the

1:17

longtime secretary of Richard Nixon. Woods

1:19

began her career with Nixon in 1951, long

1:22

before his time in the White House. In fact, she

1:24

was so close to the family that Nixon's daughters

1:27

even referred to her as Aunt Rose. In 1974,

1:30

Woods was thrust into the national spotlight

1:33

during the Watergate scandal, when investigators

1:35

discovered a mysterious 18 and a half

1:37

minute gap on one of the tapes handed

1:39

over by the Nixon White House. The tape

1:41

was believed to contain a conversation between

1:44

President Nixon and his chief of staff just

1:46

three days after the Watergate break-in. Woods

1:49

took responsibility for that gap and tried to

1:51

explain it away as an accident. As

1:54

she tells it, she was simply transcribing the tape

1:56

at her desk when the phone rang, but

1:58

as she reached for the phone...

1:59

She mistakenly struck the wrong key on the recorder

2:02

while her foot was on the machine's pedal. The

2:05

motion ended up somehow destroying

2:07

the tapes contents. She was later

2:09

asked to demonstrate that stretch resulting

2:12

in this now infamous photo. Now,

2:15

not many people bought Woods's story

2:17

and it's largely suspected that Nixon was behind

2:20

the deletion. But why am I telling

2:22

you about this? Because it's something Carlos

2:24

de Oliveira might want to Google. As

2:27

of Thursday, de Oliveira went from being a little-known

2:29

moral agro employee to the latest

2:31

character in Donald Trump's storied legal

2:34

saga when he was named as the third

2:36

defendant in the first ever federal

2:38

criminal case against a former president. The

2:40

DOJ hit de Oliveira with four charges

2:43

including conspiracy to obstruct justice,

2:45

making false statements and corruptly

2:48

altering, destroying or mutilating a

2:50

document or other object. De Oliveira,

2:52

in echoes of Nixon and Rosemary

2:54

Woods, is accused of trying to delete

2:57

surveillance camera footage at moral

2:59

agro. The 56-year-old has worked at

3:01

Trump's Florida resort for more than a decade, rising

3:04

up the ranks to the position of property manager. Now,

3:08

de Oliveira isn't your typical member of the ex-president's

3:11

inner circle. People close to him describe him

3:13

as a hardworking employee who came to the US

3:15

from Portugal to seek a better life.

3:18

As one of his own family members put it, quote,

3:20

he isn't familiar with how the government here works

3:22

and he was probably just being loyal to his boss

3:25

who is paying his bills. The family

3:27

feels like he got trapped. De

3:30

Oliveira is set to appear in front of a Miami

3:32

judge tomorrow for his arraignment. But

3:34

just today NBC News learned he has not yet

3:37

secured a Florida-based lawyer. The

3:39

new superseding indictment paints a damning

3:41

picture of what federal prosecutors describe as

3:44

a plot by Trump, de Oliveira, and

3:46

Trump's so-called diet coke aide, Walt

3:48

Natter, to delete video footage

3:50

from the moral agro security cameras last summer.

3:53

According to the indictment, in June of 2022, the

3:55

DOJ communicated to Trump's lawyers that a grand

3:58

jury

3:58

was issuing a superior for security

4:00

footage from Mar-a-Lago.

4:03

The next day, the former president asked to see

4:05

Nata. Nata was scheduled to travel

4:07

with Trump the following day to Illinois, but

4:10

instead flew to Palm Beach, Florida. Once not

4:12

a touchdown, he met with D'Olivaro, who then

4:14

met with an IT employee and told

4:16

him that, quote, the boss wanted

4:18

the server containing security footage

4:21

deleted. After that exchange,

4:23

D'Olivaro met twice with Nata near Bushes

4:26

on the northern edge of the resort's property.

4:28

We should note the indictment doesn't say whether they were

4:31

able to actually delete any video. But

4:33

this isn't the kind of stuff you typically read about

4:36

in federal indictment. It's more the stuff of a Netflix

4:39

espionage thriller like The Night Agent

4:41

or a John LeCarry spy novel

4:43

only involving bungling spies,

4:45

not smoother James Bond

4:47

types. As for the Bond villain himself,

4:50

Trump, of course, denied the latest charges

4:52

on where else his truth social site.

4:55

Just this morning, Trump blasted the charges,

4:57

writing that he

4:58

never told anyone to delete the footage and hand

5:00

it over the tapes to the feds or as he called them thugs

5:03

willingly. Well, case closed

5:06

then. But the classified documents

5:08

case is hardly Trump's biggest legal challenge.

5:10

On Friday, we were all bracing for an indictment in an

5:12

entirely different and even bigger case

5:15

from the feds. Jack Smith's investigation

5:17

into Trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 election.

5:19

And all indications show that

5:21

an indictment there is still imminent,

5:24

with many legal experts speculating it could

5:26

come as soon as this Tuesday.

5:29

And then there's Georgia. Tomorrow,

5:31

Monday, the 31st of July,

5:34

marks the first day of a three-week period in which

5:36

it is highly suspected Fulton County

5:38

DA Fonney Willis will bring charges against Trump

5:41

and his allies for their election interference

5:44

efforts. And as Trump's legal cases

5:46

mount, so do the costs. According to new

5:48

reporting from the Washington Post, Trump's political group

5:50

spent more than 40 million dollars on

5:53

legal fees in the first half of 2023 alone

5:56

to defend him, his advisors and others.

5:59

That total is more than

5:59

than any other expense the pack has incurred

6:02

during Trump's 2024 presidential

6:05

campaign. And according to federal filings from

6:07

earlier this month, it's also more than Trump's campaign

6:09

raised in the second quarter of 2023. People

6:12

are donating money to Trump to use in this

6:14

way. Amazing. These growing

6:16

legal troubles aren't just costing the Trump campaign

6:19

money, it's also costing them something perhaps even more valuable.

6:21

Time. In total, Donald Trump

6:24

faces five trials between now

6:26

and November. And remember, that's before Jack

6:29

Smith's first expected 1-6

6:29

indictment before Fonny Willis's

6:32

expected Fulton County indictment. A

6:35

leading candidate splitting his time between

6:37

the campaign trail and courtrooms.

6:40

Here's what his prominent Republican rival and former

6:43

ally Chris Christie had to say about that

6:45

split screen just this morning.

6:48

I want voters to

6:50

listen to this. It is most

6:53

likely that by the time we get on

6:55

the debate stage on August 23rd,

6:58

the front-runner

6:59

will be out on bail in

7:02

four different jurisdictions, Florida,

7:05

Washington, Georgia and New

7:07

York. Out on bail.

7:11

But the folks in Christie's party don't

7:13

seem to be heeding his warnings. Despite his

7:15

growing legal woes, Donald Trump is still the front-runner

7:18

for the GOP's nomination. So I have to

7:21

ask, can American democracy

7:23

really survive a presidential election campaign

7:25

in which one of the two major party candidates is in

7:27

the midst of so many criminal trials?

7:30

And what does it say about one of our two major

7:33

parties that regardless of all of this,

7:35

they are still on course to nominate for

7:37

president, a man who, in the words of Chris

7:39

Christie, is a one-man crime

7:42

wave.

7:43

Let's discuss all of this with David Henderson, a

7:45

civil rights attorney and former prosecutor. He's also

7:48

a CNBC contributor. Glenn Kirschner,

7:50

former federal prosecutor and an MSNBC legal

7:53

analyst. And Jill Weinbank's former assistant

7:55

Watergate special prosecutor, MSNBC

7:57

legal analyst and the co-host of the Sisters in Law

7:59

podcast.

7:59

Thank you all for coming back on the show.

8:02

Jill, let me start with you. How big a deal

8:04

is this superseding indictment that we got

8:06

on Thursday?

8:09

It's a very big deal because

8:11

the obstruction that is

8:13

laid out there is so

8:16

awful and so ridiculous

8:19

and so well documented that

8:22

it really puts a different perspective on

8:24

all the rest of the crimes in the original

8:27

indictment. And because

8:29

they now have the Iran

8:31

document and can now say

8:34

that's what he was showing, this highly

8:36

classified documents, people who did not

8:39

have any kind of clearance, it's

8:41

really going to make the jury see all

8:44

of the other accusations in the

8:46

indictment in a very different

8:48

way. And it shows that he's not even

8:51

as successful as Richard Nixon. Richard

8:54

Nixon was successful in deleting 18 and

8:56

a half minutes. He failed

8:58

as far as we can tell. There's nothing deleted.

9:01

He tried and that's a crime,

9:03

but he didn't succeed. Donald

9:06

Trump not as good at covering up as Richard Nixon.

9:09

Jill, you mentioned the jury. I'm going to go to

9:11

Glenn in a moment. But last week when I spoke to Glenn,

9:13

Jill, he said he had confidence in

9:16

any jury that's selected in the Trump documents

9:18

case. Despite my concerns

9:20

that that group would be drawn largely from

9:23

counties that Donald Trump won in his previous campaigns in

9:25

a big way, do you believe a

9:27

jury, a

9:28

South Florida jury, containing Trump

9:30

voters would unanimously convict Trump if

9:33

the evidence is clear enough?

9:35

I agree with Glenn on this. I

9:38

have great faith in the jury system. We

9:40

have seen in the Manafort trial, a

9:42

Trump juror said, I

9:45

was sworn by the judge to vote only on

9:47

the basis of evidence in this courtroom and

9:50

I had no choice. I had to vote to convict

9:52

him on every single count. I think

9:54

jurors take those kinds of instructions

9:56

very seriously and

9:58

that they will see. in this case that

10:00

the evidence is overwhelming, that they cannot

10:03

look away from it. There

10:05

is, of course, a risk, but I think

10:07

in this case, they will be voting

10:11

to convict.

10:13

Glenn, today we learn that although Di Olivera

10:15

secured counsel in DC, he's failed to find representation

10:18

in Florida. How does that complicate

10:20

plans for tomorrow's arraignment? Is this yet

10:22

another delay in this case?

10:25

It could be. It depends on if the judge appoints

10:28

temporarily local counsel who's

10:30

qualified to appear for purposes of Di

10:33

Olivera's arraignment. Let's hope

10:35

that the judge doesn't continue to

10:37

sort of kick the can down the road, because

10:40

you really can appoint somebody

10:42

temporarily to stand

10:44

in until Di Olivera gets what

10:47

we are all hoping, Mehdi, is conflict-free

10:50

counsel. That will make all the difference in

10:52

the world. If he gets an attorney

10:54

who is truly

10:55

zealously representing his

10:58

interests instead of being on Team

11:01

Trump, then it seems Di Olivera

11:03

should

11:04

cooperate. There really is no

11:06

reason for him not to save himself.

11:09

I hope he hears the rumble of the oncoming

11:11

bus that is represented by

11:14

Donald Trump apparently already posting

11:16

that I didn't tell anybody

11:19

to delete a server. Well,

11:21

what he has just done is he has

11:23

called Di Olivera a liar.

11:26

I hope Di Olivera gets zealous representation

11:29

and begins to explore cooperation with the prosecutors.

11:33

Glen, how dare you suggest

11:35

that Donald J. Trump would throw an employee under

11:37

the bus? How dare you suggest that? That's shocking

11:40

to hear you suggest such a thing. David, Glen mentions

11:43

conflicts of interest. I mentioned that new Washington Post

11:45

reporting that Trump and his associates' legal

11:48

fees have cost his Super Pack $40 million. It

11:50

appears Trump's pack has already secured Di Olivera

11:52

a lawyer in D.C., as he

11:54

already did with Walt Nater, the Diet Coke

11:57

aide. How much of this is just a blatant

11:59

conflict of interest?

11:59

in your view? I

12:02

think quite a bit of it is, Mehdi. And here's the reason

12:04

why. If you're representing Oliveira or

12:06

Nata, you've got to give them advice that's

12:09

best for them. And the longer

12:11

this goes on, the best advice for them is

12:13

to flip on Trump. There's no way around it. Typically,

12:16

you get a new indictment if you're representing someone.

12:18

Their question to you is, hey, am I looking

12:20

at more time? The answer here basically

12:23

is not really, because you're already facing so

12:25

many charges, but it's far

12:27

more likely that they're going to convict you. And here's the reason

12:29

why. You're adding another defendant, which

12:31

is another mouth that you've got to pray stays closed

12:34

because if they flip, it's a lot easier to prosecute

12:36

the case. And again, for the two people involved,

12:39

given how much the money is going to be for them,

12:41

if they cut off the pipeline to the legal fees,

12:44

they have a vested interest in taking a position

12:46

against Trump. And the lawyer is probably going to tell

12:48

them that if they're being paid for by Trump.

12:52

Well,

12:52

we assume the IT employee who was told

12:54

to delete the staff who got his own lawyer is the one who's

12:56

flipped and helped with the indictment so far. Jill,

12:59

you worked on the Watergate case. A

13:01

few moments ago, I mentioned the infamous Rosemary

13:03

Wood stretch, showing the lengths that

13:05

some people are willing to go to defend

13:08

a corrupt boss's actions. And

13:11

yet today, the defenders are way beyond

13:13

anything Nixon meant. Have a listen to Fox's Greg

13:15

Gutfeld and what he had to say about this

13:17

superseding indictment.

13:19

Surveillance cameras. What's

13:22

wrong with that? What's wrong with like, are

13:24

those yours? Why can't you clear them? I don't

13:26

understand that. I

13:30

mean, Jill, at least Nixon's defenders didn't say he

13:32

was fine to delete the tape. They had the decency to

13:34

claim it was accidental. Yes,

13:37

you cannot delete anything that

13:40

has been subpoenaed. And they were

13:42

on notice of the subpoena two days

13:44

before it actually got there.

13:46

And the attempt happened

13:48

in

13:49

right consequences of the

13:52

request for the documents. Once

13:54

they're subpoenaed, it is obstruction

13:56

of justice to tamper with them or

13:58

to attempt to tamper.

13:59

with them. So let's keep in mind that the attempt

14:02

is just as much a crime as the success.

14:05

And there's no question from what we're

14:07

reading, that that's what the evidence

14:10

is going to show that there was an attempt.

14:12

It's a question of not to seems

14:15

to me to be the one I'd really want to

14:17

flip, because he had the direct

14:19

conversation

14:20

with Trump. He can say, Trump

14:23

said to me, and when I went

14:25

down to talk to the Aloe Vera,

14:27

I said to him the boss and he knew I

14:29

meant exactly Donald

14:31

Trump. So he's the one

14:33

who's really important. And

14:35

the Aloe Vera really puts

14:38

the screws to not so

14:41

together, they're really a powerful team. Yeah.

14:44

I'd love if future historians have to write that the first

14:46

president to go to prison went to prison because

14:49

the aide who got him Diet Coke flipped on him. Glenn,

14:51

we have seen a few big names in Trump's

14:53

legal circle face some forms

14:56

of accountability for efforts after January the

14:58

6th. We saw Jenna Ellis getting in trouble

15:00

in Colorado for her lies that she had to admit

15:02

to. Sidney Powell's backed away from some of

15:04

her claims. Rudy Giuliani lost his law license

15:07

this week. He admitted he lied about the actions

15:09

of two Georgia election workers, Ruby Freeman, Shemos.

15:12

What do you think about this approach that some are taking to

15:14

go after Trump's lawyers to try and get

15:16

some accountability that way?

15:19

Yeah, you know, the lawyers are going to be some really important

15:22

witnesses against Donald Trump. I'd hasten

15:24

to add, usually lawyers don't testify

15:26

against their own clients, except

15:29

when the client enlists the lawyer to

15:32

be part and parcel of a fraud. So,

15:34

you know, I think it's

15:37

interesting to me, methi, that ordinarily

15:39

when we're investigating these large scale conspiracy

15:41

cases, what we see and what

15:44

I used to do as a prosecutor is try

15:46

to flip people over time,

15:49

turn them into cooperating witnesses, have them enter

15:51

guilty, please and cooperate. And

15:54

usually you see that pattern emerge

15:56

publicly. I find it a curiosity

15:58

that we have found

15:59

we have seen no people of consequence

16:03

charged and developed as cooperating

16:05

witnesses, at least not publicly. It may

16:08

very well be that Mark Meadows has

16:10

entered into a contractual agreement

16:13

with the government to become a cooperator.

16:15

Maybe he hasn't entered his guilty plea

16:17

yet, maybe he has, and it's under seal. I

16:19

still find it very curious that we don't

16:22

have any marquee names who

16:24

have flipped. That's unusual. That leads

16:26

me to conclude perhaps Jack Smith

16:28

is keeping his powder

16:29

dry and we're going to see a

16:32

sizable January 6th indictment

16:34

very soon, but I still find it a curiosity.

16:38

I mean, it would be phenomenal if Mark Meadows has

16:40

done that, former Trump White House Chief of Staff. Certainly

16:43

no diet coke aid him, he's a big deal.

16:45

David, last word to you, when it comes to election

16:48

interference, when it comes to the 1-6 case,

16:50

we often talk about all of this in the abstract democracy,

16:53

overturning elections. But we can't forget

16:55

that the reason we're here is Donald Trump and

16:57

one of the charges we believe that may come against

16:59

him, he talks about it in the Trump, he talks about it in the target

17:02

letter, the deprivation of rights.

17:05

Donald Trump and his campaign did not want votes

17:08

from mostly black citizens in mostly

17:10

black areas of key battleground states

17:12

to count. And I worry we're losing sight of that.

17:17

I agree 100% many as we have these conversations

17:19

about prosecuting a former president, it's meaningful

17:22

to think that one of the potential charges he may

17:24

be facing stems essentially from

17:26

the KKK Act of 1871. And

17:28

that's conspiring to deprive people of

17:30

a free exercise of a constitutional right

17:33

here, that right being the right to

17:35

vote. We're talking about that in a future prosecution,

17:38

perhaps in Washington. We're also talking

17:40

about it when we go down to Georgia, and it ties back

17:42

into one of the first things he started asking about since

17:44

we're on the topic of civil rights. If

17:46

we

17:47

learned anything from the civil rights era, and

17:49

let's take Med Grabber as an example, he

17:51

was assassinated in his driveway, they had to

17:53

try his killer three different times

17:56

before they got a final conviction. And it goes

17:58

to show that you can win any case.

17:59

if you can pick the right jury. Here, we're

18:02

talking about a jury chosen by a judge he appointed

18:05

in a state that he won twice in counties

18:07

where he's heavily favored. The flip side

18:09

is, his lawyers are about to say, the minute you can't

18:11

pay my bill, I'm out. And so

18:13

far, that's been $40 million. It's

18:16

only going to go up as litigation continues.

18:19

David Henderson, Glenn Kirshner,

18:21

Jill Wainbanks. Thank you all for your analysis as

18:23

ever. Is

18:26

it just a coincidence that the arguably

18:28

the most corrupt presidents in US

18:30

history were once pen pals? More

18:33

on the Trump Nixon letters in a moment.

18:42

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19:48

In the midst of his seemingly endless legal

19:50

troubles, Donald Trump took a moment yesterday to remember

19:52

an old friend, Richard Nixon. Trump

19:55

uses social media platform to share a letter that

19:57

his one-time pen pal wrote to him in 19... saying,

20:00

quote, whenever you decide to run for office,

20:03

you will be a winner. I

20:05

mean, we are beyond irony here. That

20:07

is Donald Trump gushing that

20:09

the man behind Watergate, who eventually resigned

20:11

as president to avoid being impeached and who

20:13

had to get a pardon to avoid being indicted, thought

20:16

he, Donald Trump,

20:17

would be a great president. Have

20:20

we ever had a former president so proudly

20:22

and openly wear his own alleged criminality

20:24

as a badge of honor?

20:26

Let's ask NBC News presidential historian

20:29

Michael Beschloss. Michael, thanks for coming back on

20:31

the show. First off, your reaction to this

20:33

Nixon, your reaction to this Nixon

20:35

letter. I mean, we've known that Trump has no shame for

20:37

a long time, but this seems to take it to a whole other

20:40

level.

20:41

Yeah, you live long enough. You get to see everything,

20:43

don't you, Mehdi? But Donald Trump

20:45

thinks that this is something to be proud of. I'm

20:48

waiting for him next to post a fan letter

20:51

to himself from President Andrew Johnson

20:53

or maybe Jefferson Davis.

20:56

Yes. Yes. Who

20:58

next in the endorsements of Trump from the past? I can't

21:00

wait. Michael, 45

21:03

people have sat in the Oval Office. Given

21:05

what we know so far, is Donald Trump the most egregiously

21:08

criminal?

21:09

Oh, beyond

21:11

doubt, even if we learn nothing

21:13

more than what we know tonight, you know, compare

21:16

it to Nixon. Nixon obstructed justice,

21:18

abused power. If he hadn't been pardoned

21:21

by Gerald Ford, there's a very good

21:23

chance that Nixon would have been the first

21:25

president, ex-president, to be sent

21:27

to prison. But in Trump's case,

21:30

he did those things and so much more.

21:33

Almost brought down our democracy on the 6th

21:35

of January, kept

21:38

classified documents about the most

21:40

sensitive defense secrets

21:43

in our nation's arsenal. If

21:45

you or I had done that, Mehdi,

21:47

we wouldn't be on TV tonight. We'd be

21:49

in jail. So these are things

21:51

that he has done and more. They go way

21:54

beyond and they also threaten the

21:56

rule of law in our country and our

21:58

future as a country of democracy.

22:01

So you are a historian of presidents,

22:03

you're a historian of this country, the founding fathers

22:06

who came up with the Constitution, their vision of

22:08

America,

22:09

did they anticipate a Trump?

22:11

Did they do enough to think

22:14

of a system that could

22:16

contain a Trump at the top of it?

22:19

They did not do enough and some of them

22:21

knew it at the time. Alexander Hamilton,

22:23

for instance, among others, felt

22:26

that there were not enough checks against

22:28

the possibility that someone of evil

22:31

and bad character would be elected

22:33

president. And Hamilton

22:35

and others who worried about this have turned out to be absolutely

22:38

right. What checks are there against

22:40

a reckless, lawless president

22:43

like Donald Trump? How about impeachment?

22:45

How did that work? Well, twice impeached

22:48

didn't stop Trump in the least.

22:49

There's a, in my mind,

22:52

extinct memo from Nixon's

22:54

Justice Department saying a sitting

22:56

president cannot be indicted that

22:58

was used to keep him from being indicted. I believe

23:01

sitting president should be indicted. He

23:03

was able to stand up to Congress.

23:06

And if memory says we currently didn't Biden or people

23:08

around Biden suggest they were going to get rid of that memo, but they

23:10

haven't, not as far as I'm aware. They

23:13

have not yet. But the point

23:15

is that we have run out of

23:18

checks and guardrails and remedies against

23:21

a president who misbehaves. And if the

23:23

last seven years are not a living

23:25

demonstration of that, I

23:27

don't know what else we need.

23:30

Michael, as we discussed at the top of

23:32

the show, Trump will face five trials

23:35

between now and next November. That does not include

23:38

the indictments we're waiting on in

23:40

relation to the 2020 election from

23:43

Jack Smith and from Fonny Willis in

23:45

Georgia. The guy is going to be interrupting

23:47

presidential debates and campaign rallies

23:50

to go and sit in court in multiple

23:52

different parts of the country. And I want

23:54

to ask you, is there a time in our history

23:57

where a presidential campaign was so, so

23:59

important?

23:59

so turned upside down. Can you think prior

24:02

to 2024, what was the most chaotic

24:05

presidential campaign we had in this country?

24:07

Well, chaotic you can talk

24:09

about, for instance, 1924, before

24:12

the Democrats became progressive, the

24:15

Democratic Convention of 1924 was dominated by

24:19

delegates from the Ku Klux Klan. So

24:21

we've had lots of chaotic presidential

24:23

campaigns. I'm all for that. I want

24:25

a really vigorous debate. But maybe,

24:28

you know, you and I, years ago, I

24:30

think I can speak for both of us, that

24:33

if a presidential candidate were

24:36

under indictment and on trial,

24:37

maybe in five different venues, for

24:40

things as major as violating

24:42

the Espionage Act, insurrection

24:45

against the United States, almost like the Confederacy,

24:48

things like that, we would have thought

24:50

maybe it'd be a little bit disqualifying, but

24:53

the scary thing is the number of people who

24:55

were willing to stick with Trump through thick

24:57

and thin.

24:58

And of course, Trump himself, who has suggested that

25:00

even if he were to be convicted prior to November,

25:02

which is unlikely, given the timeline, even

25:05

then he would carry on running, because of course in

25:07

America, you can run for president from

25:09

a prison cell, which again, is something

25:11

surely that needs changing. Michael Beschloss, we'll

25:14

have to leave it there. We're out of time. Thank you, always

25:16

a pleasure.

25:17

Oh, thank you, me too. Thank you, Matty. Coming

25:20

up, all the ex-president's

25:23

men, the corruption and criminality runs

25:25

far deeper than just Trump himself, and

25:28

do not forget, you can listen to the Matty Huston show

25:30

anytime, free, wherever you get your

25:32

podcasts.

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26:08

Time for a quick break to talk about McDonald's. Wake

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26:38

It's

26:45

time for what I call the 60 second rant.

26:48

Given Donald Trump's latest legal troubles, it's worth

26:50

reminding ourselves how many indictments he's

26:52

facing and how many people around him have

26:54

already been convicted of crimes. I

26:57

know it's hard to keep up but let me have a go in

26:59

just 60 seconds. Trump's indictments and

27:01

all of the Trump people who've already been

27:03

indicted and then convicted. Start

27:06

the clock. In March Donald Trump was indicted by the

27:08

Manhattan District Attorney over his alleged hush bunny payments.

27:10

Then in June he was indicted by DOJ Special Counsel

27:12

Jack Smith for his mishandling of classified documents. And

27:15

this week Smith

27:15

added three new counts so Trump is accused of multiple

27:17

crimes. But how about all the people around him that convicted

27:19

criminals that Donald Trump has befriended hired worked

27:21

with his 2016 presidential campaign chair.

27:24

Paul Manafort convicted for tax for bank

27:26

for conspiracy did for the United States and witness tampering

27:28

later pardoned by Donald Trump is deputy campaign chair

27:30

from 2016. Rick Gates convicted for conspiracy

27:33

and lines investigative his 2016 campaign

27:35

CEO and then White House Chief Standardist Steve Bannon

27:37

convicted for criminal contempt of Congress. His lawyer

27:39

Michael Cohen convicted for tax evasion and campaign violence

27:41

violations. His national security adviser General Michael

27:44

Flynn convicted for lying to the FBI and later pardoned

27:46

by Trump is one time foreign policy advisor George Papadopoulos

27:48

convicted for lying to the FBI and later pardoned by Trump

27:50

is one time foreign policy adviser George Nader convicted

27:52

for sex crimes against minors. His co-ent's ally

27:55

and revised the Roger Stone convicted of obstructing a congressional

27:57

investigation and later pardoned by Trump is company

27:59

CFO

27:59

Alan Weisselman convicted for grand larceny tax fraud

28:02

and falsifying business records and the Trump organization

28:04

itself convicted on multiple charges of criminal

28:06

tax fraud.

28:11

Coming up, Justice Samuel Alito's

28:13

claims that Congress

28:16

wrongly has no authority to police the Supreme

28:18

Court will set the record straight. But

28:20

first, Jessica Layton is here with the headlines. Hello,

28:23

Jess.

28:24

Thanks, Mehdi. Stories were watching this

28:26

hour. A suicide bombing at a political

28:28

rally in Pakistan has led to 55 dead

28:30

with more than 130 injured. That's

28:33

according to a spokesperson for the political party

28:35

who organized the event. No group

28:37

has said they're responsible, but the Islamic State

28:40

group does operate across the border in Afghanistan.

28:43

Russian officials say they shot down three Ukrainian

28:45

drones targeting Moscow. This was just

28:48

hours before a military parade there that

28:50

would be attended by Vladimir Putin. Ukraine

28:53

has not taken responsibility for the attack.

28:55

We know one person was injured. This

28:57

was the third drone strike in Russia just

28:59

this week. And back here in the U.S.,

29:02

powerful storms hit the D.C. area on

29:04

Saturday, knocking out power for more than 200,000 people.

29:08

The severe storms in the Northeast turned deadly

29:10

after a man in Virginia was killed by a tree

29:12

crashing down on his home. I'm

29:15

Jessica Layton. More The Mehdi Hassan Show

29:17

after this break.

29:25

The Supreme Court's approval

29:26

rating has sunk to an historic low.

29:29

Just 30 percent of registered voters approve of the

29:31

court, while 59 percent disapprove,

29:34

according to a Quinnipiac poll from last month. And

29:36

these abysmal ratings are in part because

29:38

of the actions of justices like Samuel Alito.

29:41

This is a man who his critics would say he's indebted

29:43

to GOP big donors. Republican

29:46

reporter that Alito took a luxury fishing trip

29:48

in 2008 with GOP billionaire

29:51

Paul Singer, whose hedge fund had cases

29:53

before the court at least 10 times in the

29:55

years following

29:56

that vacation. Alito did not report the trip

29:58

in his financial disclosures. Why?

30:01

Because essentially Supreme Court justices are

30:03

virtually unregulated, left to police

30:05

themselves, and doing a very bad

30:08

job of it. And what does Alito

30:10

say about this? In an interview with The

30:12

Wall Street Journal, he just doubled down,

30:14

saying, quote,

30:15

I know this is a controversial view, but I'm willing

30:17

to say it. No provision in the Constitution

30:20

gives Congress the authority to regulate

30:22

the Supreme Court, period.

30:24

By the way, the person who interviewed Alito for that piece

30:27

was David B. Rivkin, a prominent

30:29

conservative attorney who, I kid you not,

30:31

is about to appear before Alito in

30:33

a case at the Supreme Court. It's

30:35

the biggest possible middle finger Alito

30:37

could send

30:38

to Congress and to any American who believes

30:41

Supreme Court justices should not float with

30:43

impunity above the law.

30:46

Joining me now to discuss this is Mark Joseph

30:48

Sturnee, senior writer on the courts

30:50

for Slate. Mark, thanks for joining me. What

30:52

do you think Justice Alito

30:54

is trying to do here with this Wall Street Journal

30:57

interview? Has he got a strategy here or

30:59

is he just trying to provoke to bait

31:02

the Democrats into subpoenaing him

31:04

or even impeaching him? Or is it a show of strength?

31:06

You can't touch me.

31:08

Yeah, I think Justice Alito genuinely

31:11

enjoys trolling liberals.

31:14

He is clearly a consumer

31:16

of Twitter-type news and information.

31:19

He clearly sees the reaction on

31:21

the left whenever he makes a statement like this, and

31:23

he seems to love it. What he

31:26

said in this interview goes so far beyond

31:28

the pale of any known standard

31:30

of ethics, it's hard to know where to start. You

31:32

have a justice offering an advisory

31:35

opinion on legislation that is pending

31:37

before the Senate,

31:40

giving an interview to a lawyer who, as you

31:42

noted, will shortly appear before him in

31:44

a case that's designed to roll back the

31:46

federal income tax. It couldn't

31:49

look worse than this, but Alito

31:51

seems to revel in it. And I think especially

31:53

after that ProPublica piece, he wants

31:56

to flout as many ethics

31:58

rules as possible to show us that

31:59

But for now, at least, he can't be touched.

32:03

So in terms of he can't be touched, the court

32:06

can't be touched, Alito said, and I quote, that

32:08

no provision in the Constitution gives Congress

32:10

the right to regulate the Supreme Court, period.

32:13

And yet legal experts have come out in their

32:15

droves to say otherwise. University

32:17

of Texas Law School's Steve Vladek tweeted

32:19

that Alito's position is not just controversial. It's,

32:22

quote, belied by 234 years of practice and would turn

32:25

the separation of powers totally on its head. He

32:27

highlights Article 3, Section 2 of the Constitution,

32:29

which says that, quote, the Supreme Court shall have

32:31

appellate jurisdiction, both as to

32:33

law and fact, with such exceptions and

32:35

under such regulations as the Congress

32:38

shall make. That does seem to counter

32:40

Alito's argument, does it not?

32:43

I mean, the Constitution literally

32:45

uses the word regulation to

32:48

say what Congress can do to the Supreme

32:50

Court. And yet Alito claims that

32:52

no provision gives Congress the

32:55

authority to regulate his court. It cannot

32:57

be squared. The guy is just lying.

33:00

And I think what Steve is trying

33:02

to say there and making such an important point is

33:04

that for most of our country's history,

33:07

Congress did regulate the Supreme Court. You

33:09

know, it added or subtracted seats.

33:12

It forced the court to hear certain cases and

33:14

took away the power to hear other cases.

33:16

It moved forward certain hearings

33:19

for totally partisan purposes. I'm

33:21

not saying all of that is good, but it shows

33:24

that embedded in the Constitution is this idea

33:26

of checks and balances among all

33:28

three branches. Alito seems to think

33:31

that the Supreme Court sits atop the

33:33

government and simply doles out checks and balances

33:35

to the other two branches. That is not how

33:37

it works. If Congress wanted to

33:40

turn Sam Alito's chambers into

33:42

a transgender health clinic, it

33:45

would have full constitutional

33:47

authority to do so. And I think deep

33:49

down he knows that and he's scared of it. And that's

33:51

why he wants to go out and tell the American

33:54

people the opposite. Well,

33:55

that's a vision for the Supreme Court's future

33:58

there, Mark, that you're outlining. Alito

34:00

did this hours-long interview, as we've mentioned you

34:02

and I, with David B Rivkin, who appears

34:05

before the court, will be appearing on this federal income

34:07

tax case. He's also an attorney

34:09

for conservative activist Leonard Leo, who reportedly

34:11

facilitated Alito and his pulsing

34:13

as Grand Alaskan Adventure. I

34:16

mean, I'm trying to think about how wildly

34:18

egregious this is. I mean, if Katanji

34:21

Brown Jackson sat down

34:23

for a New York Times interview with Mark

34:25

Elias, the Democrat election

34:27

lawyer, to talk about the illegality

34:29

of Republican voter laws, I mean,

34:32

what would conservatives say?

34:34

Right. And let's just add an extra layer to

34:36

this. David Rivkin also

34:39

wrote a letter on behalf of Leonard

34:41

Leo to the Senate Judiciary Committee

34:44

claiming that the committee has no authority to

34:46

investigate Leo's relationships

34:48

and financial support of judges and justices

34:51

because of the First Amendment, claiming

34:53

that an investigation like that would violate

34:55

Leonard Leo's First Amendment rights. An

34:57

interesting assertion to consider given

35:00

the news that Leonard Leo recently had

35:02

a protester arrested for

35:04

calling him an effing fascist

35:07

in public. So apparently to

35:09

Leonard Leo, the First Amendment allows

35:11

him to have someone arrested for saying nasty things

35:13

about him, but does not allow

35:16

the Congress of the United States

35:18

to open an investigation into his $1.6

35:21

billion dark money machine.

35:24

So pro tip, I'm no lawyer, but if somebody calls

35:26

you a fascist, best not to call for them to

35:28

be arrested. Just pro tip. Mark

35:30

Joseph Stern, as ever. Thank you for your analysis

35:33

and reporting.

35:34

Thanks so much, Matty. Coming up, coming

35:37

up, Ron De Sandis goes to war to defend

35:40

the upsides of slavery.

35:42

And some Republicans, specifically black Republicans,

35:45

are not having it.

35:55

He's way behind in the polls. His campaign

35:57

is burning through cash and he just fired a camera.

35:59

campaign staffer who used Nazi imagery

36:02

to astroturf online enthusiasm.

36:05

So it's strange that Ron DeSantis decided

36:07

to mark his latest campaign reboot, reset,

36:10

relaunch, I've lost count of how many there've been already,

36:14

by making the case that there were some upsides,

36:16

some pros, some lovely little silver linings

36:19

to slavery. No, really. Don't

36:22

take my word for it. This is not a liberal smear

36:24

campaign. Just listen to Ron DeSantis

36:26

himself. Well,

36:29

you should talk to them about it. I mean, I didn't do it

36:31

and I wasn't involved in it. But

36:34

I think what they're doing is I think that they're probably

36:36

going to show some of the

36:38

folks that eventually parlayed,

36:41

you know, being a blacksmith

36:44

into doing things later in life.

36:46

Parlayed.

36:48

DeSantis was defending

36:50

the Sunshine State's new social studies education

36:52

standards, or rather one standard in particular,

36:55

that dictates middle school students should learn, quote,

36:57

how slaves develop skills which

36:59

in some instances could be applied for their

37:02

personal benefit. Here's

37:04

the craziest part, though. Not content with defending

37:06

that curriculum, defending the supposed personal

37:09

benefits that slavery conferred on the

37:11

enslaved. Team DeSantis has since

37:13

gone to war, both in public statements and

37:15

especially via online tweet

37:18

tirades, not just with the plethora

37:20

of historians and teachers who've spoken out against

37:22

it, but also with prominent black Republicans

37:25

expressing their concern, claiming they're

37:27

all siding with the lying Democrats.

37:30

When Florida GOP congressman, hardcore

37:32

right winger Byron Donalds tweeted

37:34

that the quote, attempt to feature the

37:36

personal benefits of slavery is wrong and needs

37:38

to be adjusted. DeSantis

37:40

rapid response coordinator and top Twitter

37:42

troll Christina Pucheau replied, did Kamala

37:45

Harris write this tweet? When Republican

37:48

Congressman Wesley Hunt, a direct descendant of a

37:50

slave, offered some pushback to those standards,

37:52

DeSantis Deputy Press Secretary Jeremy Redfern

37:54

just dunked on him. When Senator Tim

37:57

Scott, the lone black Republican in the Senate,

37:59

noted very accurately.

37:59

that what slavery was really

38:02

about was separating families, about mutilating

38:04

humans and even raping their wives. It was just

38:06

devastating. Ron DeSantis himself

38:08

said Scott and other Republicans in Washington,

38:10

quote, all too often except false

38:12

narratives, except lies that are perpetrated

38:15

by the left.

38:16

Yes, for DeSantis and co, any Republican,

38:19

any black Republican even, questioning

38:21

their controversial teachings in Florida on

38:23

slavery is a dupe of the left,

38:26

especially of black vice president,

38:28

Kamala Harris, who has been leading the democratic

38:30

efforts to push back against DeSantis on

38:32

this.

38:33

At the end of the day, you got to

38:35

choose. Are you going to side with Kamala Harris

38:39

in liberal media outlets? Are you going to side

38:41

with the state of Florida? And I think it's

38:43

very clear that these guys did a good

38:45

job on those standards. It wasn't anything

38:48

that was politically motivated.

38:50

These are serious scholars.

38:53

Separate to his deliberate mispronunciation

38:56

of the black vice president's first name, serious

38:59

scholars,

39:00

well, two of the leaders of the working

39:02

group that compiled the new Florida standards aren't

39:05

actually professional historians, but are

39:07

Republicans. And they put out a statement

39:09

defending their work.

39:11

But plot twist. NBC News

39:13

reports the vast majority of that working group, 11

39:16

of the 13 members did not actually

39:18

want to include language about the benefits

39:21

of slavery.

39:22

Sorry, Ron. Look, I'm no presidential

39:25

candidate or election winning governor, but I'm pretty

39:27

sure that if you're a Republican accused of

39:29

defending slavery, your go to move

39:32

isn't to pick a fight with black members of

39:34

your own party.

39:35

To quote black Republican congressman

39:37

John James, who also criticized the curriculum,

39:40

my brother in Christ, if you find

39:42

yourself in a deep hole, put the

39:44

shovel down. But DeSantis

39:47

can't stop, won't stop his campaign

39:49

surrogates continue to tweet incessantly

39:51

about how right the curriculum is and

39:53

how wrong all their black Republican critics

39:56

are. So to use language that team

39:58

DeSantis might better understand.

40:00

Stop tweeting! Touch grass.

40:04

Coming up at the top of the hour with Eamon Moyadine,

40:06

Congressman Dan Goldman on his push for the Department

40:09

of Homeland Security to weed out extremism

40:11

within its ranks, and Congressman Robert Garcia

40:13

will share the findings of his hearing on UFOs.

40:16

But Eamon himself joins me next to discuss a presidential

40:19

candidate still striving hard to prove to the world

40:21

that he's a real boy. Yes, him

40:23

again, Ron DeSantis.

40:33

Thank you for watching. We will be right back here

40:35

next Sunday at 8 p.m. Eastern. You can now find

40:37

this show on the MSNBC Hub on

40:40

Peacock, a new episode each week on Thursday. Time

40:42

for a quick break to talk about McDonald's. Wake

40:45

up and bagel eyes. Get your taste buds

40:47

ready for McDonald's breakfast bagel sandwiches, now

40:49

just $3, only on the app. Choose

40:51

from a delicious steak egg and cheese bagel, bacon

40:54

egg and cheese bagel, or sausage egg and cheese bagel. Just $3

40:56

when you order ahead on the app. Hurry

40:59

and seize this breakfast steal before it's gone. Offer valid

41:01

717-2023 through 813-2023 at participating McDonald's. Valid

41:07

one time per day or per person or any other

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limitation.

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Must

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opt into rewards.