0:00

Walking this talk together.

0:02

Every hour. Every day.

0:04

This is 702. Let's

0:07

walk the talk. Hello

0:09

and a very good afternoon to you.

0:11

I'm in for Mandy Wiener. My name

0:14

is Jane Dutton and as we go

0:16

to air a violent protest is underway

0:18

at the Walter Sesulu University. There are

0:20

reports of injuries. Our reporter is there

0:22

so we'll be getting a live update

0:25

on what is going on. President Ronald

0:27

pauses in the Eastern Cape. Might be

0:29

quite shocked when he sees the state

0:31

of many roads in that province. He's

0:33

there to check out the port of

0:36

Mghurah. And it's day two of the

0:38

inquest into the death of former A&C

0:40

President General Chief Albert L'Toole. Africa

0:42

is making a massive impact on

0:44

the world of art. We're going

0:46

to be discussing that and how

0:48

if you want to get on

0:50

to that ladder, you go about

0:52

it. Remember, you can give us

0:54

a call. You can send your

0:56

voice note messages to us in

0:58

the Kharteng region. The number is

1:00

0-7-2-1-7-2 and in the Western Cape.

1:03

It is 0-2-567-567-567. taken together. Let's

1:05

walk the talk 7 or 2.

1:07

So violent protests have been

1:09

underway for most of the

1:12

morning at the Walter Sessullo

1:14

University in Antata. Trantla Mabasso

1:16

was there in the province

1:19

fortunately and was able to

1:21

make it. He's our EWR

1:23

reporter and Trantla, what is

1:25

happening right now? Well Jane,

1:27

a large police present has

1:29

been deployed outside campus to mend

1:31

a security main entrance. Students now

1:33

want to move on the national

1:35

route, which is the end to

1:37

to continue with their protest. Jay,

1:40

you'd recall that in the morning

1:42

they forced a car belonging to

1:44

one of the university officials who

1:46

they alleged was the one or

1:48

fired shots at the protesting students.

1:50

According to these students, these are

1:52

issues that they've been raising for

1:54

various times now with the university

1:56

management, but they say they are

1:58

demands for an example. having a

2:00

bigger study center. They say the

2:02

F study center only accommodates about

2:05

500 students and there's more than

2:07

3,000 students at this campus. That's

2:09

according to the SRC management here.

2:11

They say they want to rest

2:13

accommodation issues attended by the management.

2:15

There are even safety concerns, especially

2:18

in residents that accommodate ladies. They

2:20

say that male security guards have

2:22

been deployed for security purposes of

2:24

the residence at those residence. But

2:26

They're not even concerned that there

2:28

are a few sexual harassment incidents

2:30

that they've seen happening. They say

2:33

despite various times having raised address

2:35

with the management, nothing has been

2:37

done thus. But I must mention

2:39

Jane that we're yet to get

2:41

response from the university management, but

2:43

I can confirm to you that

2:46

as things stand. All students who

2:48

stay outside campus have been prevented

2:50

from going in. No workers are

2:52

allowed to enter the campus. So

2:54

this means academic progress has also

2:56

been disrupted. And I mean, there's

2:58

been a high level of violence.

3:01

I mean, what sort of injuries

3:03

are we talking about here? Because

3:05

we seem to be getting conflicting

3:07

reports. Indeed, well, you had to

3:09

confirm the issue of one student

3:11

having been killed, but that's the

3:14

initial report we received upon arrival

3:16

from the SRC at the campus.

3:18

In fact, as they are protesting,

3:20

many of them are carrying placaring

3:22

placaring placards. demanding justice for what

3:24

they say was the slain is

3:26

a slain student. They say we

3:29

demand justice for the student. Those

3:31

close quotes and then some are

3:33

also demanding justice for those we

3:35

are told that three of them

3:37

are in that and we are

3:39

taken to hospital but I must

3:42

mention that upon arrival I would

3:44

just use can confirm that while

3:46

student was indeed taken by an

3:48

ambulance but she did not sustain

3:50

any injuries but it seems she

3:52

was having sort of difficulties with

3:54

breathing. I'm not sure whether she

3:57

inhaled the smoke during the protest

3:59

or what, but I can tell

4:01

you that there's a lot of

4:03

spent cartridges of morale bullets here

4:05

as public order police. couldn't continue

4:07

to try and maintain the situation.

4:09

In the morning it seemed while

4:12

I was actually traveling back to

4:14

there then I could see a

4:16

lot of group but did not

4:18

understand until I got a call

4:20

to go back to the campus

4:22

where I saw really in fact

4:25

made it in fight with the

4:27

protection of student leaders who flanked

4:29

us in taking us to where

4:31

the car was touched. We were

4:33

able to see that her band

4:35

beyond recognition. and we do understand

4:37

that the security management, I mean

4:40

the campus management was without any,

4:42

or by police officers. I must

4:44

mention, I've also seen the station

4:46

commander of this area, Brigadier, and

4:48

really was standing outside other police

4:50

choppers, but we are yet to

4:53

get official weight from the Eastern

4:55

Cape Police and the Eastern Cape

4:57

government as to what's the way

4:59

forward now, but as things nothing

5:01

is moving. inside this particular university.

5:03

And other students were they saying

5:05

that this was a peaceful protest

5:08

initially? Well that's what they say

5:10

it was. They say it was

5:12

a peaceful protest but I can

5:14

tell you that now it's no

5:16

longer the fact that the people

5:18

injured affect that there's so many

5:21

heavy police deployment things tortured that's

5:23

not a peaceful but they say

5:25

it was peaceful when the said

5:27

security I mean the said 10%

5:29

official started opening for them but

5:31

yes we are yet to confirm

5:33

with the police indeed if that

5:36

was the case because else then

5:38

for now it seems they only

5:40

have the student side. Yeah and

5:42

I've been looking at pictures of

5:44

them I mean many of them

5:46

have got their faces covered many

5:49

are throwing rocks it's quite hard

5:51

to see who they are aiming

5:53

at who they targeting but all

5:55

right so we're waiting to hear

5:57

from the university from the leadership

5:59

and to get an update from

6:01

the police on the Violent protests

6:04

taking place at the Walter Susuulu

6:06

University. Thank you for that and

6:08

slant to my bustle. Walking this

6:10

talk together. Every hour. Every day.

6:12

This is 702. Let's Walk the

6:14

talk. Today is the second day

6:17

of the inquest into the death

6:19

of former ANC President General Chief

6:21

Albert Latouli, Hawk's detective, Mani Meche

6:23

Morteler, continues with his testimony where

6:25

he'll be telling the court about

6:27

his attempts to recreate Lattouli's last

6:29

moments and whether it's permissible that

6:32

he died by being hit by

6:34

a train, our reporter, Tabisa Gorba

6:36

is on the ground he'll be

6:38

covering this for us. And Tabis,

6:40

I'm just wondering what... Motley took

6:42

into account to account for those

6:45

last moments. Good afternoon, Jane. Yes.

6:47

I have to say that today

6:49

has been quite of a bit

6:51

of an onerous process. As you

6:53

said, that Maghamecha Motley, one of

6:55

the host detectives assigned to this

6:57

case, he wanted to create a

7:00

simulation and it was a bit

7:02

of an administrative process where he

7:04

was speaking around how they had

7:06

to procure a locomotive train. They

7:08

couldn't find the original one that

7:10

allegedly killed Chief Albert Luculi. As

7:12

I can imagine, he died in

7:15

1967. So obviously that train is

7:17

no longer to be found. However,

7:19

what he did was that they

7:21

wanted to procure a similar one

7:23

as close to as identical as

7:25

the one that killed Luculi. However,

7:28

the issue was that it was

7:30

owned by a private company and

7:32

it would cost not to half

7:34

a million rant which created a

7:36

bit of a delay in terms

7:38

of Creating that simulation. However, that

7:40

simulation Jane was eventually done Now

7:43

it is interesting that my dimension

7:45

what they didn't make any sort

7:47

of conclusions about what they found

7:49

after having done those simulations So

7:51

we are expecting a bit of

7:53

a criminal analyst or maybe someone

7:56

else All right, we

7:58

seem to have lost Combs. him

8:00

there. He was updating us from

8:03

the High Court in Peter Maritzburg.

8:05

It is the second day of

8:07

the inquest into the death of

8:10

former ANC President General Chief Albert

8:12

Lutuli and we were hearing there

8:15

how the Hawks detective Mortley was

8:17

trying to recreate the possible. scenario

8:19

of what happened or rather recreate

8:22

the scenario of what was allegedly

8:24

happening to Latuli when he died.

8:26

The reports are that he was

8:29

hit by a train and we're

8:31

also hearing there how expensive it

8:34

was to get a train that

8:36

would be similar in any sort

8:38

of way. Now this is the

8:41

second inquest as you know that

8:43

the Griffiths McLeaner one was also

8:45

taking place yesterday. That was delayed

8:48

because two of the perpetrators were

8:50

looking for legal aid to be

8:53

so I believe we've got you

8:55

back on the line now. Carry

8:57

on with what you were saying?

9:00

Yes, I was saying that's kindly

9:02

understand is Lieutenant Colonel Adolf Stein.

9:04

Now he also works in the

9:07

Hawks. truth and reconciliation commission units.

9:09

So this is a hawks division

9:12

that is charged with investigating those

9:14

upper-date error crimes. And one of

9:16

the most important things we said

9:19

is that they struggled to actually

9:21

trace down some of the key

9:23

witnesses. So the conductor of the

9:26

train who was driving the train,

9:28

his last known address was in

9:31

Durban and they couldn't find him.

9:33

There was a fireman who responded

9:35

to that incident. He also couldn't

9:38

be found. And There's also another

9:40

gentleman I think was who worked

9:43

within the trains department at the

9:45

time in the 1960s. He also

9:47

couldn't be found. So I think

9:50

it just goes about social around

9:52

the difficulties and the complexities when

9:54

investigating these crimes around finding those

9:57

people, especially because a lot of

9:59

them have moved, some have died

10:02

and some have maybe immigrated out

10:04

of the country. So that's what

10:06

Adam Adostin has sort of been

10:09

speaking about. around those difficulties with

10:11

tracking down some of those witnesses

10:13

who witnessed the incident back in

10:16

the 1960s. Do you know who

10:18

else is going to be called

10:21

up to testify? We don't know

10:23

necessarily the names of the people

10:25

that are going to be called

10:28

out to testify. However, what we

10:30

do know is that people are

10:32

going to be called to testify.

10:35

will be experts around the we

10:37

talked about that simulation that was

10:40

done so someone will be called

10:42

to testify around those conclusions that

10:44

were reached there will be a

10:47

pathologist who will be testifying around

10:49

the post-mortem but there will also

10:51

be former workers of the Prasa

10:54

well we know it's a Prasa

10:56

now but I don't know what

10:59

it was called during that party

11:01

time but former workers who worked

11:03

at that station will be called

11:06

to also testify. All right, to

11:08

be saw Goba, I'll let you

11:10

go back and so you can

11:13

update us a little bit later

11:15

on about any of the revelations

11:18

today from the inquest into the

11:20

death of Lutuli. Because this journey

11:22

is better taken together. Let's walk

11:25

the talk, 702. Let's talk more

11:27

about Chief Albert Latooley, who he

11:29

was, what sort of contribution he

11:32

made to the country, and more

11:34

about his death and what we

11:37

rarely do know about it. Let's

11:39

bring in Zuccona Valella, a historian,

11:41

a very good afternoon to you.

11:44

So it's been interesting getting some

11:46

of the details and some of

11:48

the speculations now that this case

11:51

has been opened up again. How

11:53

important a moment is this in

11:56

our history? Do you think what

11:58

what can a change for us?

12:00

Yeah, I think it's important because

12:03

I mean first of all I

12:05

think and it's important to sort

12:07

of highlight today and today's significance.

12:10

I mean this is the 29th

12:12

anniversary of the start of the

12:15

TRC hearings. And I think that

12:17

moment as we think about this

12:19

inquest, and also helps us to

12:22

start a conversation about some of

12:24

the unresolved cases surrounding mysterious deaths,

12:26

be they the type of death

12:29

that occurred in 1967 as it

12:31

relates to Chifu-Tuli or even deaths

12:34

in detention or assassinations and so

12:36

on such as the assassination of

12:38

Griffith Sam Branger. So there's an

12:41

opportunity here presented to us. to

12:43

just talk about, yeah, some of

12:46

the wounds of the past and

12:48

hopefully reach a moment where we

12:50

close the chapter on, or some

12:53

of the chapters of our history

12:55

once and for all. Remind us

12:57

of Lutuli's pedigree. Tell us more

13:00

about the man, why he won

13:02

a Nobel Prize. Well, you know,

13:05

Lutuli, he comes to propaganda. 1952,

13:07

so at the title of the,

13:09

or rather the beginning of the

13:12

defiance campaign against the unjust laws

13:14

enacted by the apartheid regime. So

13:16

the A and C legs him

13:19

in December of 52 and he

13:21

becomes the president of the organization

13:24

and he is one of those,

13:26

I think one of the things

13:28

that a lot of people will

13:31

remember about him is his staunch

13:33

belief in nonviolence. and a staunch

13:35

belief in the possibility of bringing

13:38

about democratic and predisposition, which all

13:40

of us live side by side,

13:43

regardless of color, through peaceful means.

13:45

So he is, you know, he

13:47

becomes a target of harassment of

13:50

banishments and so on because of

13:52

his belief. in, you know, in

13:54

a South Africa that does not

13:57

need to live under our state.

13:59

And that gains him prominence globally.

14:02

And, you know, while he's busy

14:04

accepting the Nobel Prize, there's also

14:06

the shift in, you know, in

14:09

the outlook of the African National

14:11

Congress. And this, in the context

14:13

of that shift is probable. So

14:16

you see a situation where peaceful

14:18

protesters are met with brutal force

14:21

and violence, which ends in the

14:23

deaths of... about 69 people and

14:25

so there's a change now in

14:28

approaches and I think what I

14:30

find remarkable about Lutili is that

14:32

even as he believed staunchly in

14:35

a nonviolent approach and he was

14:37

not somebody who imposed that idea

14:40

on his organization because I think

14:42

the mandate broadly starts to shift

14:44

in terms of responding in terms

14:47

of fighting fire with fire and

14:49

I think with the prize as

14:51

we know, the prize money from

14:54

the Nobel Prize, you know, helps

14:56

to fund the purchase of a

14:59

farm that became a house wayhouse

15:01

for those who went underground, skipped

15:03

the country and went for military

15:06

things. So I think that ability

15:08

to understand the moment to put

15:10

a personal agenda aside for a

15:13

broader mandate. in shifting times is

15:15

I think an important legacy to

15:18

remember when we think of the

15:20

tool. Absolutely. And another big player

15:22

you touched on him briefly, Griffiths,

15:25

Griffiths, but Klinge, there was another

15:27

inquest underway at the same time.

15:30

It was postponed yesterday because the

15:32

two accused of killing him, they

15:34

want legal aid. So I just

15:37

want to ask you, I mean,

15:39

when these murders were committed, they

15:41

were state sanctioned, right? So where

15:44

does it leave them legally now?

15:47

Well, you know, it's interesting that

15:50

you should mention that because the,

15:52

you know, Griffith-Salemquez, Hillers were granted

15:55

amnesty at the TRC. Yeah. And

15:57

amnesty meant that they wouldn't. never

15:59

be liable for prosecution ever again.

16:02

So this reopening of the inquest

16:04

and some of the implications of

16:07

this moment as it relates to

16:09

bringing it might be, might set

16:11

a new precedent as far as,

16:14

you know, amnesty at the TRC

16:16

is concerned. And it might, it

16:19

perhaps might motivate a few families

16:21

who might have been opposed. to

16:23

certain individuals being granted amnesty, approaching

16:26

the courts as for the reopening

16:28

of of inquests for maybe even,

16:30

you know, appeals around some of

16:33

the granting of amnesty. So it's

16:35

one to watch and to think

16:38

through as we reflect on 30

16:40

years since the law that gave

16:42

rise to TRC, the promotion of

16:45

national unity and reconciliation acts. and

16:47

also as we go into the

16:50

30th anniversary of the TRC next

16:52

year so it'll be quite a

16:54

thing to watch as the months

16:57

unfold. And I'm you know I'm

16:59

wondering if anyone's listening today and

17:02

they've got some thoughts about the

17:04

TRC and the experience with the

17:06

TRC and if you'd like to

17:09

share those with us we'd really

17:11

like to hear that 07-2702-1702 and

17:14

the Cape Talk numbers 07-2567-1567. I

17:16

want to ask you I mean

17:18

what Can an inquest like this

17:21

really achieve? I know it'll provide

17:23

or can provide closure for family

17:25

and people close to them, but

17:28

what do we do with this

17:30

information? Well, I mean, I think

17:33

that's pretty much the primary point.

17:35

I mean, you can't bring back

17:37

these people unfortunately, but I think

17:40

it's important to affirm what many

17:42

people have suspected. You know, that

17:45

these people didn't just, this was

17:47

not an accident. you know i

17:49

mean it's it's it's bizarre to

17:52

me that someone like rutuli who

17:54

we knew grasso you know would

17:57

somehow lend in you know, in

17:59

front of a train and be

18:01

struck by it. I mean, a

18:04

blind person at the time of

18:06

his decade got blind, but blindness

18:09

doesn't mean your awareness of your

18:11

surrounding ends. So I think for

18:13

one, and I think it's important

18:16

for his family to find that

18:18

closure and for us to officially

18:20

state on record what happened in

18:23

terms of, you know, the history

18:25

books in terms of writing the

18:28

wrongs. of the past

18:30

and kind of stating on record

18:32

for us to remember and recall

18:35

that this is actually what happened.

18:37

Zuccona Vellillo, great talking to you,

18:39

historian, telling us more about Chief

18:42

Albert Lutuli. Walking this talk together.

18:44

Every hour. Every day. This is

18:47

702. Let's walk the talk. Yeah,

18:49

hello Jane. 7 or 2, Taran

18:51

Renberg. Jane and I, when the

18:54

theology started, I was in Cape

18:56

Town and they had some hearings

18:59

there. I was a journalist, well,

19:01

photojournalist and I covered quite a

19:03

bit of that. But let me

19:06

say without mentioning names, the most

19:08

powerful moment for me there was

19:11

when the accused was in the

19:13

stand and he murdered someone's kid

19:15

and he was on trial and

19:18

tooth and reconciliation was all coming

19:20

out. The mother went up to

19:23

him and said, I forgive you

19:25

and they hugged each other with

19:27

tears. So I think that's what

19:30

we're missing here. I think people

19:32

need to understand the power of

19:35

forgiveness. Yeah,

19:37

I mean it's extraordinary. I mean

19:39

a friend of mine found out

19:41

about her aunt through the truth

19:44

and reconciliation process and Obviously that

19:46

was very important to them a

19:48

black sash member and It provided

19:51

some sort of closure. I mean,

19:53

it's a it's a big topic

19:55

isn't it and and as our

19:57

historian was saying it's something that

20:00

you know if it hasn't worked

20:02

if it hasn't done what it's

20:04

supposed to do then we need

20:07

to go back and reopen it.

20:09

JB says regarding Chief Latouli been

20:11

hit by a train, the only

20:13

trains I've ever seen South Africa

20:16

move very slowly and quite hard

20:18

to be hit by one. Let's

20:20

bring in our reporter Alpha Ramashrani,

20:23

he's in the Eastern Cape, he's

20:25

following the president, tell us about

20:27

the port that the president and

20:29

his cabinet today. are going to

20:32

visit the port of Mugha on

20:34

just 30 kilometers north of Kaberha

20:36

at 2 o'clock this afternoon. They're

20:39

going to be briefed by a

20:41

transmit on the operations at the

20:43

port of Mugha operations, how it's

20:45

operating, and what's needed to make

20:48

it operate even more better than

20:50

it is now. And I think

20:52

it's quite another important port this

20:55

one is because it was established.

20:57

We launched in 2009 rather. And

20:59

since then it has become one

21:01

of the fastest growing ports on

21:04

the African continent, you know, it

21:06

handles cargo for many countries in

21:08

the West and in the East

21:11

of Africa, and its geographical position

21:13

as well, makes it easier for,

21:15

you know, a lot of cargo

21:18

to end up at this port

21:20

of Gooha today, so transit is

21:22

going to be giving an update

21:24

to the president about what some

21:27

of their successes, some of the

21:29

things that are... obstacles or hindering

21:31

their operations there at the port

21:34

of Mujah today. This is the

21:36

first thing on the program. The

21:38

second thing, of course, the president

21:40

and his cabinet will be taking

21:43

a deeper look into issues affecting

21:45

the Eastern Cape province as a

21:47

whole. You would remember Jane about

21:50

a month ago, the president was

21:52

in shouting when he complained about

21:54

the poor state of the city

21:56

of the city of Chehanisburg, that

21:59

very same visit is now in

22:01

the... the eastern tape and they're

22:03

going to be taking a deeper

22:06

look in this province. You would

22:08

know that there are many issues.

22:10

in this province. They have challenges

22:12

in education, one of the lowest

22:15

metric pass rates nationally, last year

22:17

they made slight improvements in education,

22:19

but it was still not up

22:22

to standard, and it was said

22:24

by the national minister of education

22:26

last year, only 19.5% households in

22:29

the Eastern Cape have accessed piped

22:31

water. So everyone else doesn't have

22:33

access to pipe water in this

22:35

province. They are down there with

22:38

limbo as the provinces with the

22:40

lowest rate of access to pipe

22:42

water. And crime is also a

22:45

big issue in the Eastern Cape.

22:47

When it comes to rape and

22:49

murder, they are also having serious

22:51

challenges with these two types of

22:54

crimes. And that is what I

22:56

assume the president would be dealing

22:58

with with speaking about during his

23:01

two-day visit to this province. Good,

23:03

as you say, it's a province

23:05

with many problems, pit latrines as

23:07

well. There, roads, I mean, roads

23:10

in a parlour state, it'll be

23:12

interesting to see what they come

23:14

up with, but good to know

23:17

that there is a port that

23:19

is functioning, because we've been also

23:21

hearing about how many problems we

23:23

have with so many other ports

23:26

around the country, the delay in

23:28

being able to offload anything, and

23:30

the trucks queuing for kilometers Alpha

23:33

Ramel Ramashran Ewen reporter. Because this

23:35

journey is better taken together. Let's

23:37

walk the talk 702. Good day

23:39

702 Nation. This guy talking about

23:42

forgiveness. I don't think that's there.

23:44

The perpetrator must come forward and

23:46

ask for forgiveness. People must take

23:49

responsibility of their action for them

23:51

to be forgiven. I doubt he

23:53

understands the depth of the pain

23:56

they have caused to the families.

23:58

Children growing up without their parents.

24:00

Forgiveness doesn't start there. Their lives

24:02

that were left without... anyone to

24:05

look after children growing up without

24:07

parent. Forgiveness must be asked when

24:09

this. Apolluch. Thank you. If

24:12

you've got any more thoughts about

24:14

the TRC, about anything else, we've

24:17

been talking about this moment, this

24:19

morning, this afternoon, rather, and what's

24:21

going on at Walter Sassouli, if

24:24

you have any update for us

24:26

from there, get in touch with

24:28

us. 0702, 702, 702, 1702, Cape

24:31

Talk area, 07, 2567, 1567. So

24:33

the former Premier Ace Macha Shula,

24:35

businessman Edwin Sori, and others are

24:38

facing charges linked to corrupt 255

24:40

$255 million grand tender to remove...

24:42

as best as in government houses.

24:45

This matter hasn't been on the

24:47

court rule since 2021, and the

24:49

trial is set to start today.

24:52

Our reporter, Matsumodice, is there. Many

24:54

people were concerned that this wasn't

24:56

actually going to have him, but

24:59

it has. That's right. That's right,

25:01

Jane. I think we were in

25:03

for another postponement. In fact, one

25:06

of the lawyers for the second

25:08

accused, that's the former head of

25:10

supply chain in the free state

25:13

came and said, They had only

25:15

received instructions on the 11th, which

25:17

is last week. They said they

25:20

only received the docket last week,

25:22

which is, of course, thousands of

25:25

pages that they need to get

25:27

through. And so they submitted that

25:29

this matter be postponed. But I

25:32

think, you know, something else really

25:34

that keeps the interest of Judge

25:36

Philip Lausher is the fact that

25:39

the advocate who's supposed to be

25:41

representing him is also not in

25:43

court here today. He seems to

25:46

have double-book booked himself. But then

25:48

we heard from Judge Lauser, really

25:50

in a surprising ruling, I think,

25:53

that this matter must proceed and

25:55

we are now actually hearing the

25:57

pleading. So let's take a listen

26:00

to what Judge Lauser had to

26:02

say. It is my view that

26:04

this case must... proceed today. We

26:07

cannot postpone, postpone, postpone and in

26:09

three months' time we sit in

26:11

the same position and in six

26:14

months' time we sit in the

26:16

same position again. That is not

26:18

in the interest of justice and

26:21

it's not in the interest of

26:23

the accused themselves. I'm therefore of

26:25

the opinion and I will ask

26:28

Any of the council who wants

26:30

to comment on it, I'm therefore

26:33

of the view that we should

26:35

as a next step now proceed

26:37

with putting the charges to the

26:40

accused one by one and let

26:42

them plead to it. Double bookings,

26:44

delays, you can see why that's

26:47

not palatable at all. Tell us

26:49

more about the charges and against

26:51

those players against those accused and

26:54

the impact that it had. Well

26:56

these are generally fraud and corruption

26:58

charges. There's also a money laundering

27:00

charge. I must say though that

27:02

Makatulai himself faces fraud and corruption

27:04

charges, not a money laundering charge

27:07

and the others including Edwin Swi

27:09

also face money laundering. There's also

27:11

contravention of the Public Finance Management

27:13

Act a charge on some of

27:15

the officials but government officials who

27:17

are co-accused in this matter. There

27:19

are 18 co-cused here. and so

27:21

they all have to plead this

27:23

afternoon and it's such a lengthy

27:25

process chain in fact the first

27:27

accused had and the charges read

27:29

to him and it took him

27:31

over 30 minutes to plead to

27:33

all the charges they are over

27:35

90 charges against the 18 people

27:37

here and I think from that

27:39

we can understand why they've been

27:41

these hurdles hiccups and delays. And

27:43

briefly if you will I saw

27:45

Ace Makhicula being interviewed I mean

27:47

he's gone rather quiet we was

27:49

just talking about it A little

27:51

earlier on, it's very difficult to

27:53

even remember his party, the African

27:55

Congress, for transformation. Where has he

27:57

been? What's he being up to?

28:00

Well that's exactly what he's been

28:02

doing, really with these parties it

28:04

seems, and that party has been

28:06

here, is here today to show

28:08

their support. They are sitting in

28:10

the courtroom today. There's actually quite

28:12

a number of them, but the

28:14

court room here, or the court

28:16

itself, the Free State High Court,

28:18

rather strict on who makes their

28:20

way through the doors. And so

28:22

it's clear though that he's still

28:24

been a very active member or

28:26

an active participant in politics through

28:28

that party and that's why they're

28:30

here to show support. It's unclear

28:33

though, however, if he's been busy

28:35

with anything else, I'll chain the

28:37

free state. Come on to my

28:39

decent. Thank you very much for

28:41

that. Walking this talk together. Every

28:43

hour. Every day. This is 702.

28:45

Let's walk the talk. So quite

28:47

an extraordinary story. very South African,

28:49

I dare say, the kidnapping kingpin

28:51

operating in Hauteng back in the

28:53

protere magistrates court in Soweto. That

28:55

was after he made a dramatic

28:57

escape from the last court hearing.

28:59

Orin Singh was there to cover

29:01

it. It didn't go ahead. Why?

29:04

Don't go ahead Jane as you

29:06

put it blankly. It was truly

29:08

South African story. The court didn't

29:10

have electricity. Finally enough when we

29:12

arrived, the court was in darkness

29:14

and then shortly after we sat

29:16

in the court. in the court

29:18

itself or the lights came on

29:20

but we're told it's just a

29:22

generator and we don't have the

29:24

recording equipment to go ahead with

29:26

any of the cases so we

29:28

met with the magistrate to do

29:30

an application to cover the case

29:32

because we wanted to film and

29:35

record and he said look. There's

29:37

no point because I'm going to

29:39

postpone all the matters on the

29:41

role today due to us not

29:43

having proper electricity supply. So that

29:45

was that in court today that

29:47

matter against this Hauting alleged kidnapping

29:49

kingpin. An interesting character Jane, his

29:51

cases date back to 2021. He's

29:53

charged with and the reason we

29:55

can't name him is that we

29:57

were told by the prosecutors this

29:59

morning that there's an identity parade

30:01

that's still outstanding. Hence we can't

30:03

reveal his identity. His name has

30:05

been caused throughout headlines across the

30:08

country over the course of a

30:10

couple of years. He's charged on

30:12

three kidnapping cases and the one

30:14

dating back to 2021 was off

30:16

a very prominent businessman in Mosambeek,

30:18

son, Jayhir Abdullah, who entered the

30:20

country in 2021. His dad was

30:22

the former chairperson of the Vodakon

30:24

board in Mosambeek, quite a... a

30:26

high-ranking businessman in Mozambique, and upon

30:28

his son entering South Africa and

30:30

in Hauting he was kidnapped and

30:32

held for ransom, quite a large

30:34

sum of ransom was paid for

30:36

his release. But this Hauting kidnapping

30:39

Kingpin has been charged on at

30:41

least three other kidnapping cases, the

30:43

most recent being two months ago.

30:45

And what happened was when he

30:47

appeared in court on the 1st

30:49

of April, he got wind from

30:51

his attorney that, look, the state

30:53

is looking to charge you on

30:55

this recent kidnapping case. And so

30:57

he left. He went on the

30:59

run and a warrant of arrest

31:01

was issued out for his arrest.

31:03

Sorry, there's extraordinary pictures of him

31:05

scaling a wall. Truly South African,

31:07

yeah. Truly South Africa. And so

31:10

they arrested him in Lumpurpurpur three

31:12

days later and his bail. an

31:14

enormous amount of bail. I've never

31:16

heard bail for just an ordinary

31:18

criminal being at two million grand.

31:20

His bail has been revoked and

31:22

he remains in custody with one

31:24

of his other co-occuse. There are

31:26

four others in this matter that

31:28

have been charged and implicated in

31:30

these kidnapping cases. And when might...

31:32

they'd be back in court. So

31:34

we're looking at postponement quite a

31:36

lengthy one but given all the

31:38

public holidays this month Jane they're

31:40

looking at the 30th of April

31:43

so he'll be back in court

31:45

with his four co-occused on the

31:47

30th of April he's facing three

31:49

kidnapping charges and a raft of

31:51

other charges including the separate kidnapping

31:53

case that he's still yet to

31:55

be charged on. So kidnapping is

31:57

a big problem in this country

31:59

it's growing a growing problem just

32:01

today we heard about two businessmen

32:03

who were hijacked and kidnapped in

32:05

Midrand north of Johannesburg. They've been

32:07

rescued and reunited with their families.

32:09

What do you know about that?

32:11

Yeah, you know, it's it's the

32:14

modus operandi in that case is

32:16

quite interesting because our kidnapping kingpin

32:18

used to have a similar modus

32:20

operandi where they would hijack victims

32:22

and hold them for ransom. So

32:24

these two gentlemen from Midrand, we

32:26

understand they were businessmen, are hijacked.

32:28

Police are looking for a silver

32:30

slash gray Hyundai I-10 and have

32:32

urged the public to be on

32:34

the lookout for that vehicle. That

32:36

is a vehicle which these criminals

32:38

used to hijack the victims. They

32:40

were traveling in a black range-rover.

32:42

They hijacked them on Monday. held

32:45

them in a bush along the

32:47

R21 highway, took their bank cards

32:49

and got their pins and withdrew

32:51

large sums of cash from their

32:53

accounts before the anti-kidnapping task team

32:55

was able to get onto it.

32:57

They luckily enough managed to locate

32:59

the victims and rescue them, but

33:01

they stole a lookout for these

33:03

criminals and the syndicate. Patrifying, Orin,

33:05

thank you. Thank you very much,

33:07

Shane. Because this journey is better

33:09

taken together. Let's walk the talk.

33:11

702. Here's a question about this

33:13

inquest. The one of Chief Albert

33:15

Mutually, the one of Griffiths in

33:18

Goine, it's a good thing that

33:20

the agency is doing this. Here's

33:22

a question that they have. What

33:25

about those comrades that died in

33:27

exile under the end of the

33:29

ANC? Till today. There's a lot

33:31

of families that don't know what

33:34

happened to their loved ones. Are

33:36

we going to have any interest

33:38

about those? Well, I mean, the

33:40

historian we were speaking to a

33:43

little bit earlier on, and we

33:45

know it was from the NPA,

33:47

that I mean, this could just

33:50

be the start, right? I mean,

33:52

depending on the success, but the

33:54

TRC did an incredible job, but

33:56

left many gaps and not much

33:59

closure for many people. Again, as

34:01

I said, they did an extraordinary

34:03

job, but there are many stories.

34:06

that need to be unearthed and

34:08

we need to get down to

34:10

the truth. So yeah, I really

34:12

appreciate your comments on all of

34:15

that. And I'm going to now

34:17

go to one of my favorite

34:19

topics. I'm going to be talking

34:21

about art and the joy it

34:24

brings to our lives. And wonderful

34:26

too when you hear about all

34:28

the. the violence and the happenings

34:31

on South African soil. We're talking

34:33

about the growing influence and investment

34:35

potential of contemporary African art in

34:37

the global market and its world

34:40

art day today. So that seems

34:42

pretty relevant. We're going to be

34:44

bringing in Maralese Fonzel. CEO, Maralese

34:47

is one of South Africa's leading

34:49

voices in the art world with

34:51

more than two decades of experience

34:53

and a proven track record in

34:56

setting auction records of some of...

34:58

Africa's most collectible artists. What's the

35:00

biggest record? Hi, good morning. Hi,

35:02

I'm my life. Sorry about that.

35:05

You are. Thank you. An introduction.

35:07

Prime morning, Jane. Yes, celebrating world

35:09

art day today. And yes, we

35:12

jumping right into it. The biggest

35:14

record or largest record. But for

35:16

us, quite a significant record. is

35:18

when we put Nicholas Slovo's work

35:21

on auction in 2022. He was

35:23

an artist relatively new to the

35:25

secondary market and we sold the

35:28

work for over $1.4 million, which

35:30

was absolutely fantastic for us. So

35:32

that is, yeah, one of our

35:34

greatest achievements. And I mean, there's

35:37

a lot of money in art,

35:39

obviously, it's one of those things

35:41

that does hold. Africa's made quite

35:43

an impact on the art world.

35:46

Tell us more about it. Why

35:48

have African artists been so successful?

35:50

Certainly, while we've seen the world

35:53

really turning to Africa since the

35:55

late 90s, especially South Africa after

35:57

1994. and also with Apart from

35:59

the economic possibilities and opportunities, there

36:02

was interesting what are our artists

36:04

doing and what are they saying

36:06

and what topics are they dealing

36:08

with. So yes, the art world

36:11

markets are constantly involving and following

36:13

on museums who had great exhibitions

36:15

about historical African art as well

36:18

as contemporary production. If you just

36:20

look at some of the moma

36:22

and site exhibitions. Serious collectors also

36:24

looked at contemporary African art as

36:27

an emerging market. So they were

36:29

certainly a need for, and a

36:31

demand for, something new and fresh.

36:34

Contemporary artists from Africa, they tackle

36:36

very relevant topics with new media,

36:38

with new techniques, it's very fresh,

36:40

it's extremely relevant. And also a

36:43

challenge here. It looks different. Yeah,

36:45

that's what I'm saying with using

36:47

new materials. And it challenges your

36:49

centric narratives in art. So one

36:52

only has to think about Alana

36:54

Tsui, the Garnian artist who uses

36:56

bottle caps to create these magnificent

36:59

tapestries. And we've got Patrick Bongoise,

37:01

a Congolese artist using rubber. And

37:03

all these new techniques and innovation

37:05

in using materials, yeah, it attracts

37:08

attention. And you know going back

37:10

to these record breaking sales by

37:12

a spy art I forgot to

37:15

mention that you the CEO of

37:17

a spy art what did they

37:19

reveal about market trends? So it's

37:21

absolutely the search for something new

37:24

and fresh when we opened our

37:26

doors in 2016 we were thinking

37:28

okay how are we going to

37:30

differentiate ourselves from other auction houses?

37:33

And the first thing was, well,

37:35

let's bring something new to the

37:37

market. And let's focus on something

37:40

or art, which is close to

37:42

art. And that's why we focus

37:44

on contemporary art. We took chances.

37:46

We were not scared to take

37:49

risks. you know, everyone knows about

37:51

oil painting and bronze sculptures, but

37:53

we brought in very interesting works

37:55

of art, like I mentioned, created

37:58

from various materials. We have a

38:00

big focus on women making art,

38:02

also new media, we specialize in

38:05

photography. So that's the biggest trend

38:07

is a move towards new things,

38:09

new ideas, new media, new concepts.

38:11

And actually also an opportunity because

38:14

it's an emerging market, so there

38:16

is a huge opportunity for return

38:18

on investment. Yeah, if you get

38:21

in pretty early, right? I mean,

38:23

how, of course. Yeah, I mean,

38:25

how is art collecting evolving and

38:27

what should new collectors consider? And

38:30

also, I want to find out

38:32

from you how you get in

38:34

there, how you get on this

38:36

ladder, what you should, what should

38:39

you look out for? Yes, certainly.

38:41

So the art will be shifting

38:43

very quickly and so it's collecting

38:46

and there's a lot happening. Many

38:48

people think that the art market

38:50

or the art industry is quite

38:52

closed or a snobbish, but it's

38:55

very open and accessible, but it

38:57

needs careful navigation. So I would

38:59

usually advise people to seek out

39:02

assistance and guidance, speak to specialists,

39:04

speak to curators at art galleries,

39:06

speak to advisors, speak to advisors,

39:08

speak to advisors, speak to advisors,

39:11

speak to advisors, speak to advisors.

39:13

And then also, like any other

39:15

investment, do your homework, read up

39:17

a lot, especially if you're interested

39:20

in a particular artist or an

39:22

artwork, do the research or employ

39:24

someone to do the research for

39:27

you, and also visit museum exhibitions,

39:29

visit galleries. We have three incredible

39:31

artists in South Africa, the Cape

39:33

Town Art Fair. We are now

39:36

getting ready for Latitudes Arts there

39:38

in Johannesburg and then. which will

39:40

be followed by Art Joberg, later

39:43

in the year as well, I

39:45

think those events and train your

39:47

eye. See what it is you

39:49

like. And is the art world

39:52

any... for artists and I go

39:54

back to a now note a

39:56

long time ago when I worked

39:58

for CNN and I interviewed an

40:01

artist called Paul Detroit he sadly

40:03

died of cancer but nobody would

40:05

touch him because he wasn't formally

40:08

trained and actually being on CNN

40:10

really opened up a market for

40:12

him and you know used the

40:14

internet a lot and social media

40:17

to to sell his art has

40:19

it got easier do you have

40:21

to go through formal training? If

40:23

we look at some of our

40:26

contemporary artists today, not everyone has

40:28

got formal training. I can only

40:30

mention Singer Samson, a young artist

40:33

from Cape Town, who is now

40:35

world renowned and uses health tools

40:37

artists. So it's totally difficult industry

40:39

for artists, especially because there's a

40:42

lot of institutional gatekeeping, but it's

40:44

more democratic. It's opened up a

40:46

lot more democratic. It's opened up

40:49

a lot more. and you just

40:51

need to get the right backing.

40:53

But unfortunately, it's still a tough

40:55

stuff world out there. You have

40:58

to be very smart with your

41:00

ideas. You have to bring something

41:02

new and fresh. But once you're

41:04

in, it's very supportive, isn't it?

41:07

I mean, you use digital platforms.

41:09

I mean, the impact of that

41:11

now on art and auctions? Well,

41:14

it was an absolute game trader.

41:16

game changer for the industry. I

41:18

mean it broke down geographical barriers.

41:20

You know all the artists have

41:23

Instagram accounts or Facebook accounts and

41:25

it brings collectors closer to the

41:27

artist. Also you don't have to

41:30

go through formal channels like a

41:32

gallery for instance or through studios.

41:34

You can get to an artist

41:36

directly. For us as auction houses,

41:39

online bidding has many many advantages.

41:41

about 40 to 50 percent of

41:43

our clients tell our international predictors

41:45

which is great for us. and

41:48

collectors can bid in real time

41:50

online without needing to be physically

41:52

present at the auction in South

41:55

Africa. So it has contributed a

41:57

lot yet. How do you balance

41:59

that the love of art and

42:01

buying something that is possibly expensive

42:04

to you and then working out,

42:06

all right, I'm going to sell

42:08

it? We work with many collectors

42:10

who sometimes need to sell and

42:13

it is very very emotional because

42:15

in essence art is a passion

42:17

investment so yes you balance an

42:20

aesthetical or cultural object that you

42:22

buy you love it you live

42:24

with it but you also don't

42:26

want to waste your money and

42:29

you do want to see it

42:31

grow but we do see many

42:33

many collectors who they thought it

42:36

was so hard you they part

42:38

from their works But in the

42:40

end you want your investment to

42:42

work for you, if that was

42:45

the reason why you purchased the

42:47

work. But it is a fine

42:49

balancing act, to purchase what you

42:51

like, what you can live for,

42:54

because you also need to live

42:56

with that work for a very

42:58

long time. You won't get a

43:01

very quick return on the basement

43:03

on your art. It needs time.

43:05

It needs time. And thank you

43:07

for your time, Maralese. Fonzel, CEO

43:10

of Espire Art. We're walking this

43:12

talk together. Every hour. Every day.

43:14

This is 7.02. Let's walk the

43:17

talk. Well, we've covered many things

43:19

in the last hour and so

43:21

much is still going on today.

43:23

The violence at the Walter Susulu

43:26

University, a reporter there was telling

43:28

us that there's still no confirmation

43:30

on if somebody has been killed

43:32

or not, what we heard was

43:35

taken away because she was struggling.

43:37

to breathe. We believe that lots

43:39

of tear gas was fired at

43:42

the students. We're still trying to

43:44

get to the bottom of

43:46

of what actually

43:48

got to to this

43:51

level of violence.

43:53

I'm sure you'll

43:55

be hearing more

43:58

about that more the

44:00

news. The news.

44:02

into the death

44:04

of of Chief Albert is

44:07

also also including

44:09

the court court appearances

44:11

of Shulé Edwin Sorry,

44:13

and others from E.

44:16

Jane Dutton. Goodbye.