2:00

episode 001. That's

2:02

a whole lot of less. Big thanks to

2:05

our patrons. Your support keeps our podcast 100%

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advertisement free because sing along at

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home, y'all. Advertisements

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suck. Let's start with our callers. If you have a question or

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comment for our show, we would love to hear from you. You

2:16

can give us a call at 406-219-7839 or email a voice recording

2:22

to podcast at theminimalists.com. Our

2:24

first question today is from

2:26

Jackie. Hello, minimalists.

2:28

This is Jackie in Reading, Pennsylvania,

2:30

and I am a Patreon subscriber.

2:33

I am curious about the topic

2:36

you brought up of community because

2:39

I've started to observe

2:41

that I

2:43

don't crave as much

2:45

communal activity or connection

2:47

as it seems

2:49

everybody else talks about

2:52

or wants. I've

2:54

always attributed that to the fact that I'm

2:57

intensely introverted and

2:59

also that I've come to enjoy my own

3:02

company. When

3:05

people talk about community profusely

3:08

and hold it up almost as a virtue, it

3:10

starts to make me feel like there's

3:13

something wrong with me that I'm not as

3:16

committed to community as

3:18

others or desire it

3:20

as much as others. And

3:22

I wonder what your thoughts are on this. Thank

3:24

you. Judith Smith, I

3:27

thought this was a great place to start.

3:29

Are you an introvert or extrovert? Extrovert, I

3:31

must admit. All right. Well, you're here with

3:33

a couple of introverts, although, Malabama is an

3:35

extrovert. Extroverts unite! Yes! Introverts unite, but in

3:37

separate rooms. Yes, literally.

3:42

So let's get to the heart of this question. But I

3:44

think there's also a question behind this question. What

3:46

Jackie's asking is, what should I do

3:48

as an introvert if I feel like I

3:51

don't need to belong to your

3:53

so-called community? This

3:56

is a real intimate question to me and a personal one

3:58

because my wife's an introvert has

4:00

been compromised because of my extrovert

4:03

ways. True story. And we are

4:05

now visiting a lot of doctors

4:08

and people to try to

4:10

deal with kind of the

4:12

compromise, chronic fatigue syndrome amongst

4:14

many others that people have said she has

4:16

because I forced her

4:18

into environments that was not the

4:20

way she was designed. And so I think immediately I hear

4:23

Jackie and it's like, I want to give her a hug.

4:25

And I want to say, listen, this

4:27

idea of community has gotten blown out of proportion.

4:29

And it means suddenly you got to have 17

4:31

best friends. Says who? Who even has 17 best

4:33

friends? Dear God. Even

4:35

extroverts have a tough time with that. I love

4:37

the ancient scripture. It says we're two or more

4:40

gathered. There's a sense of God there.

4:42

And I think community can be, hey, can you

4:44

have one or two friends that you really open

4:46

up to? And ultimately I think even extroverts need

4:48

to be more honest about this because I think

4:50

we're giving introverts a bad rap and putting them

4:52

under undue pressure that somehow they've got to get

4:54

out there and have 17 engagements throughout the week

4:56

and have a dinner every night. I

4:58

do that oftentimes because that's where I get

5:00

energy. But if that's not where you get

5:02

energy, don't let anybody tell you that community

5:04

is defined by a particular personality trait. It

5:06

really is having one or two people you

5:08

can really candidly open up to. And come

5:10

on extroverts, let's get honest. The truth is

5:12

you might have 1700 best friends, but

5:15

you really only open up to a couple trusted

5:17

people. And I think we can all do that

5:21

with the help of each other. BK, how

5:23

do you think about community? I

5:25

think it's interesting that he used the example

5:27

from church and I relate to this because

5:30

in many churches, you have this paradoxical

5:32

thing where people hunger for community. And

5:35

yet they approach the very community that they

5:37

hunger for as consumers. When

5:39

they say community, they often mean the

5:42

benefits of being part of a community,

5:44

having lots of things I can consume.

5:46

Is there a movie night? Are there

5:48

lots of small groups? Is there a

5:50

pizza party? Is there a car show?

5:53

Are there things for me to do?

5:55

But I still have the freedom to come and

5:58

go as I please without having any invest. I

12:00

couldn't walk away, I had to

12:02

understand. I'm not saying everyone needs to

12:04

go into the KKK ministry because there

12:06

is such a thing as being hardwired

12:09

and optimized for that. But when you

12:11

talk to people who disagree with you,

12:14

you get curious and you ask them questions

12:16

and listen. Not only do you have the

12:18

opportunity to learn about them, but you also

12:20

increase your own ability to influence them if

12:22

that's something you desire to do. I noticed

12:25

something between both of you is you don't

12:27

hold on to the need to be right.

12:30

And quite often we hold on to that need

12:32

to be right. It drags us in all kinds

12:34

of directions. It actually brings us away from community.

12:36

Yeah, it really does. Listening

12:39

to when you get to go next, building

12:42

your case while listening to

12:44

somebody else's. All of these things quite defeat

12:46

the whole point of listening. But

12:48

how many times I find myself doing that? You're

12:51

listening to each other and instead of listening, you're

12:53

like, okay, what could I add? What profound thing

12:56

could I say that would impress everybody in this

12:58

semi-circle? And there again, I've

13:00

defeated the whole point and the whole

13:02

purpose. I truly am so compelled by

13:05

what has just been said. It's so meaningful. Dr.

13:07

King said, hate can't drive out hate, only love

13:09

can do that. And I think listening is an

13:12

act of true love. It's like, I'm gonna, this

13:14

ancient scripture says, speak the truth in love. And

13:16

I'd say, well, listen in love. Love

13:18

is the thing that causes you to listen because you love people

13:21

and you wanna learn about people. And I've found a little trick

13:23

and I don't know if this is gonna resonate with anybody, but

13:25

everybody told me readers are leaders. And I really wanted to be

13:27

a leader and I think I'm a leader, but I'm not really

13:29

a reader. I like articles, but I don't really read books and

13:31

I need to work on that. And then it dawned on me

13:34

one day, I can circumvent reading

13:36

if I just listen. Like if I

13:38

just listened to people, I

13:40

can get ahead too, you know? And

13:42

I'm so dead serious by really engaging,

13:44

learning, absorbing and listening to people. I

13:47

have picked up more than perhaps if I

13:49

read a bunch of books because reading people

13:52

is one of the great art forms

13:54

in the human experience. And I just,

13:56

I believe in it and I believe

13:58

it is an act of love. When

14:01

someone... intuitively knows another human is hearing

14:03

them, not agreeing, but hearing

14:05

them, they feel heard, ah,

14:08

you make people feel like they can fly, and I'm into that.

14:10

There's something about the side of

14:12

listening where it is

14:15

a superpower, if you can do it intentionally,

14:17

if you can do it actively. And I

14:19

think there's a point at which your community

14:21

is strengthened by your ears

14:24

and weakened by your mouth. Like

14:26

I said, there's a point, that's not always the case. Sometimes

14:29

it helps to chip in, to

14:31

give a perspective, to give insights, to

14:33

have wisdom that you bring to the

14:35

table. But it never helps to

14:37

batter someone with that wisdom, right? In

14:40

fact, if you want to bring them into your

14:42

community, one of the best ways you can

14:44

do that is listen to

14:46

them. Can I give something practical

14:48

really quickly? When you

14:50

are having a conversation with someone who's saying

14:52

a bunch of disagreeable things, what

14:54

you can do to express everything that

14:57

you want to say is

14:59

translate all of your objections and

15:01

concerns into questions. This

15:03

is disarming, and it gives you information

15:05

that you may not have known was

15:07

even there. So let's say someone says

15:09

something completely outlandish, and it's clearly contradictory

15:11

to you. You can simply ask

15:13

them, what would you say

15:17

to people who would argue

15:19

thusly? And you're making

15:21

the assumption that there are people in the world that

15:23

don't see it that way. What would you say to

15:25

them? And this is fascinating because you actually get to

15:27

see what this individual would say. And if they haven't

15:30

thought about it, this is going to be a good

15:32

challenge for them. A second way you can do it

15:34

is you could say something like, when you see a

15:36

contradiction, you can say, what you

15:38

just said appears to

15:41

contradict what these experts over

15:43

here say. How would

15:45

you reconcile that contradiction in

15:48

your worldview and let them

15:50

go? Yeah, and as

15:52

you let them go, you are listening, right?

15:54

You're not just simply staying silent. Yeah,

15:57

well, I mean, I think even the tone that you

15:59

just did that. that it is just

16:01

as potent and powerful as the content you

16:03

just dispersed. It's like that tone of genuine

16:05

care and curiosity. I think in all of

16:08

our experiences, you know that, you know that

16:10

guy or gal who's like, no, you

16:14

know, what would you say if people said,

16:16

and it's like, bro, you said everything with

16:18

your tone and delivery and your fake laugh,

16:20

you know, that it's kind of condescending, et

16:22

cetera, et cetera. And you're right. Already you've

16:25

let the cat out of the bag. You're

16:27

not listening. You're making a point with your

16:29

question, but the way and tone, I

16:31

so believe in tone and the power of tone

16:33

is so important even in this whole process of

16:36

listening. I want to get back to the heart

16:38

of Jackie's question here about, look, I'm an introvert.

16:40

I don't feel like I need a so-called community.

16:42

And that may be true. You may not need

16:44

a specific community, but we

16:46

all are eager to be in

16:48

relationship with others. If you're an

16:50

introvert, I'm an extreme introvert, but,

16:53

and I might have a relatively

16:55

small circle, but it's appreciably different

16:57

from being on a deserted island.

16:59

And if you're on a deserted island, of

17:01

course you don't have community, but you're also

17:04

going to feel incredibly lonely. And so

17:06

are there moments in which you feel lonely ever?

17:08

Now, I know you say, there are times where,

17:10

you know, you really enjoy being with yourself. And

17:13

I think it's really healthy and I think that's

17:15

wonderful, but also there may

17:17

be times where like you yearn for

17:19

that desire to connect with others.

17:22

And Jude, I think you do this really

17:24

well. You, you often say you don't have

17:26

to believe the same thing as someone in

17:28

your row in order to be connected to

17:30

them. Yep. Yeah. I think loneliness

17:32

is an epidemic. First of all, I think

17:34

we know that it's at an all time

17:36

high, they say, and maybe it's just because

17:38

we have more capacity in building technology to

17:40

do the research. Maybe men and women have

17:42

always been so deeply lonely, but a loneness

17:45

and maybe a loneness and loneliness

17:47

are a little bit different, but this idea of

17:49

feeling lonely, feeling like an island, feeling isolated, feeling

17:51

like you're the only one is seems

17:53

to be in my line of work

17:55

at an all time high. And the

17:57

irony is it knows no discrimination. It

17:59

seems. to people on platforms, people

18:02

in the front, and people not

18:04

in prominence, loneliness is

18:07

an epidemic, why? Why are

18:09

we so lonely? And ultimately, I

18:12

think this idea of community has

18:14

these two qualities to it. It

18:16

is to be known and

18:19

to know someone. To

18:21

do that is going to

18:23

take extraordinary risk on our part.

18:27

And the problem is that I'm facing when

18:29

I interact with people, I meet with a

18:31

lot of guys, and we go do coffee.

18:33

And it's oftentimes the same story, yo, bro,

18:35

I'm telling you, man, I put

18:38

myself out there and I was

18:40

used. And somebody took

18:42

advantage of that. I can't keep doing

18:44

this anymore. And

18:46

ultimately, I'm on the

18:48

minimalist podcast, so I better distill this and get

18:50

this down to the bottom line. So I'm just

18:53

gonna say where we get, but we get there

18:55

very carefully and gradually and hopefully with care. But

18:57

it ultimately gets to this whole conclusion, let's do

18:59

it again. You and me, let's do it again.

19:01

If you do it, I'll do it. In fact,

19:04

let's do it right now. I'm gonna tell you

19:06

something about where I'm at, and then

19:08

I want you to tell me where you're at. And

19:10

suddenly guys look at me like, yo, dog,

19:12

right now at Blue Bottle, that

19:15

was a shameless plug. But right now, which I

19:17

think is where we met, Joshua, but right now,

19:19

yeah, yeah, right now, let's just do this. And

19:21

there's been a lot of tears. Yesterday, I sat

19:23

in a semi-circle with some of my closest friends,

19:25

and each one of us took time crying. And

19:27

not that crying is the ultimate evidence, but for

19:29

grown men to cry with each other, maybe that's

19:32

a little bit of progress, but it

19:34

was like, you go and I'll go, you go

19:36

and I'll go. And that practice to me is

19:38

sacred. It's holy. And like

19:40

anybody else, right now at 46 years

19:42

old, I gotta tell you, I'm going

19:44

through a leadership transition right now, and

19:46

I feel like shutting down, going away,

19:49

and trusting no one ever again. And

19:51

that seems like the most potent, powerful,

19:53

logical deduction and conclusion. But I know

19:55

that's not what I want. I want

19:57

engagement, I want connection, I want confluence.

19:59

I crave and desire, but here I

20:02

am a community facilitator, wanting to

20:04

shut it all down. So yesterday was a

20:06

practice that I did, I really mean it. I put

20:08

myself out there, I shared the truth about where I'm

20:10

at in my marriage, where I'm at with some friends,

20:12

where I'm at in my theology and philosophy. And

20:15

we got somewhere on a Monday afternoon, we did. Wow,

20:18

wow, because of the connection of the

20:20

community. That's the opposite of, and I

20:22

think sometimes when we feel like, oh,

20:24

this community, to be in a community

20:27

by itself is virtuous. No, not necessarily,

20:29

they're harmful communities. You can

20:31

be, I mean, you talked about the

20:33

KKK, that's almost a parodic exaggeration of

20:35

a harmful community. But there are other

20:37

harmful communities that are much more pernicious,

20:40

right? That maybe you can't tell that

20:42

it's harmful because from the outside, it

20:44

feels like, oh, they're welcoming or oh,

20:46

they're accepting. But they're also gonna try

20:48

to change me or manipulate me, or maybe

20:51

they're gonna rob me, steal from me, whatever

20:53

it is, right? And now that is a

20:55

type of community consumerism in

20:57

a way. Consumerism is the ideology that

20:59

buying things is going to make me

21:01

whole, complete or happy. But I would

21:03

also say the same thing about a

21:06

community. If you show up to a

21:08

community empty, it's harder to fill yourself

21:10

up with it. But if you show

21:12

up recognizing that I am already complete,

21:14

and there's something that I can add

21:16

here, no, I'm not flawless, that's not

21:18

what complete means. I was born complete, I

21:20

will die complete. But if I show up

21:23

to this community knowing I'm complete, I have

21:25

something to contribute here, that feels so much

21:27

more rewarding than just taking, taking, taking from

21:29

the community. Man, that's so good. I

21:31

think one question that we all

21:34

would benefit from continually asking ourselves is kind

21:36

of like a spiritual practice is, how

21:38

am I willing to allow my community

21:41

to challenge me? I

21:43

think that's so important. Another thing is when

21:45

people make statements of the order, I

21:47

don't like X, I don't need X. X

21:50

often means society's definition of

21:53

it. Some overly restrictive

21:55

concept of X. It's

21:57

like my little cousin who says, I don't like to read.

21:59

And I said, ah. I'm sorry

22:01

that the world did that to you. I'm sorry

22:03

that somebody convinced you a long time ago that

22:05

reading is about scanning your eyes over boring pages

22:07

that your teacher told you you had to look

22:09

at. I'm sorry that somebody took that away from

22:11

you, but I'm gonna tell you, you do like

22:13

to read and I'm gonna take you to a

22:15

bookstore and we're gonna find the books that have

22:17

your name on them. And we did that and

22:19

man, she had so many books and she was

22:21

like, wow, I can't believe how interesting these books

22:23

look. And in a similar way, when someone says,

22:25

hey, I don't need community, I don't like community,

22:27

I would say, hey, let's get rid of all

22:29

that and we're gonna have to get rid

22:31

of all that baggage. Let's just substitute people for the

22:33

word community. You like people, you need people, you just

22:36

don't need the same amount of people as other people.

22:38

And you don't need people in the same way that

22:40

other people need them. And you just have to give

22:42

yourself permission to like people in the way that you

22:44

like them. Jackie,

22:46

I'd love to give you a clutter counseling session with

22:50

TK Coleman. If you have some physical clutter, emotional

22:52

clutter, or maybe some community clutter

22:54

here, he will show you how to be

22:56

curious. We'll give you a free

22:58

session of clutter counseling to

23:01

theminimalists.com. You can click Counseling at the top

23:03

and book a counseling session with the one

23:06

and only TK Coleman. Before we get back

23:08

to our callers, Malabama, what time is it?

23:10

You know what time it is. It's time

23:12

for the lightning round where we answer the

23:14

Patreon community chats question of the week. Yes,

23:16

indeed. Now, Judah, during the lightning round, we

23:18

each have 60 seconds to answer

23:20

a question with a short, shareable, minimal, maximum.

23:23

What's my shortest time I've ever gone? Oh,

23:25

is it? 17 minutes. I

23:29

knew I was amongst friends. I love

23:31

this community. I

23:34

love this community. We try to be pithy, but we

23:36

never are. That's the irony.

23:38

Everything you do as a minimalist is blanketed by

23:40

irony, by the way. So, oh my God, you

23:42

guys were underwear? What are you, hypocrites? You

23:46

can find this episode's minimal maxims

23:48

and the show notes at theminimalists.com/podcast

23:50

and every minimal maxim ever at

23:52

minimalmaxims.com. We'll also deliver our

23:55

weekly show notes directly to your inbox, including

23:57

seven new maxims every Monday for free. You

23:59

sign up for our email newsletter at TheMinimalists.email.

24:01

We'll never send you spam or junk or

24:03

ads, but we will start your week off

24:05

with a dose of simplicity. What's the question

24:08

of the week this week? How difficult

24:10

is it to build a community with

24:12

people you disagree with? Ooh, that's

24:14

a good one. So we had, before we get

24:16

into the pithy answers here, we had a bunch

24:18

of people respond, like a bunch of people respond

24:20

to this one. But Consuela asked a question. Let's

24:22

answer her question first. Can real community

24:24

be achieved without everyone sharing the same

24:27

moral principles? Judah, what say you? Can

24:29

real community be achieved without having the

24:31

same moral principles? I think it's a

24:34

little bit of a parody if not.

24:37

I think that to me, real

24:39

community is a conglomeration of different

24:41

humans who see things differently and

24:44

the menagerie is the beauty. So

24:46

I say that's the only kind of

24:48

connection and confluence I want. I want

24:50

to be challenged. I want somebody to

24:52

speak the truth to me because they

24:54

love me. So to me, the question

24:58

defines, I think pinnacle

25:00

kind of community connection. I

25:02

need people to challenge me. D.K.

25:06

It has to, it has to be. What

25:08

he's saying absolutely has to be right because

25:10

here's community for me. You

25:13

go home and you're in your apartment trying to watch

25:15

a movie with your wife and

25:18

you hear the loud sounds of porn

25:20

because your next door neighbor is blasting

25:22

porn. And you don't

25:24

want to need this guy, but

25:26

the reality is you need him. You need him to turn that down. And

25:29

you wish you live in a world where you

25:32

could just unfollow him and he disappears, but that's

25:34

not the world you live in. And then the

25:36

neighbor to my left, they smoke weed and they

25:38

blast their music all the time. I don't like

25:40

these people. I don't want to need them. I

25:43

wish I had the money to live on an

25:45

island, but unfortunately I do need them. I can't

25:47

unsubscribe and make them disappear. Those are games we

25:49

can play online, but for the overwhelming majority of

25:51

people, we have to work with, we have to

25:54

buy groceries with, we have to drive on the

25:56

highway with people that we simply don't like. And

25:59

so community is when you. you step up to the

26:01

challenge of saying, man, I hate the fact that

26:03

I need you. I resent the fact that I

26:05

need you. I wish that I didn't, but the

26:07

reality is that I do. And so I'm going

26:09

to talk to you as if I have to

26:11

get results because I don't have the luxury of

26:14

speaking to you in whatever way I want and

26:16

then walking away no matter how much you react

26:18

because I fricking need you. You're my neighbor. So

26:20

how can I talk to you in a way

26:22

that gets you to turn the porn down? How

26:24

can I talk to you in a way that

26:27

gets you to be considerate? Even though I think

26:29

you should already know that stuff. Right, and yet

26:31

there is a line somewhere where you have to

26:33

extract yourself from a situation. If someone's behaving in

26:35

a way that is harmful toward you or violent,

26:37

obviously want to create some distance. It doesn't mean

26:40

you can't love that person from a distance, but

26:42

sometimes distance is required. And so I think the

26:44

heart of Consuelo's question here has something to do

26:46

with, yeah, if someone is harming me, yeah,

26:49

I probably don't want to be part of

26:51

that community. However, if someone just disagrees with

26:53

me, even though we have different like fundamental,

26:56

fundamentally different beliefs, I mean, the

26:59

three of us believe differently here

27:01

on the show, you're TK is

27:03

Catholic and I'm pescatarian. I

27:08

laugh so loud, I really like that. But

27:12

the funny thing is like we, every month,

27:14

we do something called Sunday symposium. We've created

27:16

this little community gathering here in West Hollywood

27:19

and people come from all over at Southern

27:21

California. So people come from Mexico, people come

27:23

from Canada. They come down from Seattle or

27:25

Iowa or Ohio. And we've created

27:27

this little community. We call it like church for

27:30

people who don't go to church, which really doesn't

27:32

describe it. It doesn't do it justice because TK

27:34

goes to church more than anyone I know. But

27:36

what we're doing is creating a community for

27:39

people who have radically different beliefs. All beliefs

27:41

and non-beliefs are welcome. And we want to

27:43

show up and show you that it's possible

27:45

to love you, even if we happen to

27:48

disagree on certain things,

27:50

even some fundamental things, or

27:52

certainly we disagree on NBA basketball. But

27:54

that's a different question here. I'm playing

27:56

ahead just to say. To build a

27:58

strong community, you have to find something

28:00

you do. do agree on. My dance

28:02

community consists of a hodgepodge of folks

28:05

from different countries with all sorts of

28:07

outlooks on life, politics, religion, et cetera.

28:09

But we all come together to dance

28:11

and spend time and genuinely enjoy each

28:13

other's company. You know, TK,

28:15

you said something to me before we

28:17

started recording. You said unity isn't born

28:20

of sameness, it's built through understanding. What

28:22

did you mean by that? Hmm. Well,

28:25

we all have a common ground upon which we

28:27

can stand, and sometimes you just don't get to

28:29

see what that is unless

28:31

you ask, unless you exercise the courage

28:33

and curiosity to engage people. And

28:36

there are just a number of truths, the

28:38

most important ones, are just not obvious.

28:41

And so when you're talking to someone, you know,

28:43

there's always something like, hey man, do you think

28:45

it's important for us to have

28:47

reasons for our beliefs? Yeah,

28:50

okay, we disagree about everything, but that's a common

28:52

ground. Now maybe we can have a conversation. Do

28:54

you think it's important for us to have reasons

28:56

for our beliefs? And that person says, no, okay,

28:58

that's not a common ground that we have. Do

29:01

you think it's important to find people that

29:03

think like you? Oh, I think

29:05

that's important too. So we have something in common.

29:07

You always gotta find that because no matter what

29:09

it is you're trying to build, you need a

29:12

foundation upon which you can start. Drew,

29:14

I think Alaina brings up a good point here,

29:16

is the first question was sort of about like,

29:18

okay, is it possible to unite with people

29:20

even though we disagree? We

29:23

sometimes on this show say tribalism is

29:25

when you unite against someone, but

29:27

community is when you unite around something. And

29:29

that could be a dance community, it could

29:31

be a religious community, it

29:33

could be whatever community you're uniting around something.

29:36

Do you agree with Alaina that it is

29:38

important to have some sort of something

29:41

to unite around? Well,

29:43

I think implicit in the question, which is what

29:45

I'm here for, it's what I'm pumped about, is

29:48

that it's going to take, assumptions

29:51

and presumptions are absolutely devastating, are

29:53

shocked at Confluence Connection and Community,

29:55

which is to say, oh, I

29:57

know who you are. Oh,

29:59

you don't know me? you hadn't even talked to me yet.

30:01

You know, like let's talk. And I

30:03

love to say, and this is so

30:05

simpleton, but I'm on the minimalist podcast.

30:09

A lot of us, we got eyeballs,

30:11

we got ears, lips, hips, fingertips, like,

30:13

man, we got a lot to talk

30:15

about and a lot in common, but

30:17

it is ironic how we feed on

30:19

the acidic kind

30:22

of divisive things. We like

30:25

to be against things more

30:27

than four things. But man,

30:29

once you lean in, the thing about being

30:31

against something is immediately you get like, I don't

30:33

know if it's endorphins, but something when you oppose

30:36

someone, you get that rush in your body and

30:38

your hair stands up and you get goose pimples

30:40

and you're like, wow, I feel so strong, but

30:42

it fades and then your body shakes and you

30:44

feel weak and you feel weary. But connecting with

30:47

someone on what you have in common, at first

30:49

you don't get that exhilarating, like, you know, emboldened,

30:51

like I stood up and I, but

30:54

over time it's fulfilling and the sensations

30:56

and the human soul, they

30:59

don't fade like they do when you

31:01

oppose and you fight and you

31:03

resist. And listen, there is a

31:05

time to stand and resist. I

31:07

absolutely, but I think the willingness

31:09

to stick it out with

31:11

people and say, let's find something that

31:13

we connect on, I think is

31:15

the future of society, constructs, continents and countries.

31:17

I'm just here for it, man, I believe in

31:20

it. Yes. So good. That's exactly why we, I

31:22

mean, you articulated why we do the Sunday

31:24

symposium. It's last Sunday of every month and we

31:26

limit it. I'm gonna talk to you about

31:28

it a bit later because I want some

31:30

of your insights. You've built some communities over time.

31:32

I wanna talk to you about what goes well,

31:35

what to look out for, what roadblocks. We've been

31:37

doing this for a few years now and

31:39

it's been really magical because there's no commerce

31:41

associated with it. We have free tickets so

31:43

people can get in the door. We have

31:45

someone who helps us rent the theater. So

31:47

like it, people just show up and they

31:49

participate and they're able to be wherever they

31:51

are. And we get to have these really

31:54

meaningful conversations that we can have meaningful conversations

31:56

on the podcast and we do, we could

31:58

reach a lot of people with that. But

32:00

there's something really special about having a room that doesn't

32:02

fit more than 200 people intentionally.

32:05

And it's way different from our tour stops

32:07

and you get a lot of people coming, but

32:09

there's something about being sub 200 people for us

32:12

that I find to be just incredible. It's

32:14

magical. Our next one is the last Sunday

32:16

in, we'll put a link

32:18

to this in the show notes, by the way.

32:20

It's the last Sunday in December, last Sunday of

32:22

the year. If you wanna join us here in

32:24

West Hollywood, Amy had this to say. You have

32:26

to listen, really listen

32:28

for understanding instead of listening

32:30

to just respond. It

32:33

is difficult, but understanding where the person

32:35

is coming from helps me gain a

32:37

better appreciation of their perspective. Yeah, I

32:39

think the opposite of that is true.

32:41

If you deeply desire to misunderstand someone,

32:44

you will find a thousand ways to misinterpret them.

32:48

And it's really easy for me to like,

32:50

I don't want to understand you. So

32:52

whatever you say, I'm going to just

32:54

mangle it. I'm going to twist it

32:56

to fit the preconceived notion or the

32:58

narrative that I have about you so

33:01

that I can batter you with that narrative. Yeah,

33:04

absolutely. I don't even know what to say to that.

33:06

That is so profound. I just

33:08

wanna say, and I was not asked

33:10

to say this, I really am overwhelmed

33:13

with the content and what's

33:15

being shared here. I just wanna say that I'm 46 years

33:18

old. I have been doing

33:20

public speaking, podcasting, recording, content creation for a

33:22

long, long time. And I'm blown away at

33:24

where we're going, what we're saying, how you

33:26

two communicate. And it's very soothing to me.

33:28

It's very meaningful to me. And I wanna

33:30

thank you for the work that you do.

33:33

I don't know if this is even going

33:35

in the show, but I just want you

33:37

to know, like I know we're right in

33:39

the middle of this, but I'm really taken

33:41

aback by your approach, your delivery, your heart,

33:44

your posture. I think this is

33:46

what we need more of in the world. And I

33:48

just want you to know I'm here for it. And

33:50

I believe in it, like I really believe in it.

33:52

So that wasn't really a reply to what you just

33:54

stated, which was profound, but that's just how I feel.

33:57

Oh man, it's an honor. Appreciate that. We

34:00

got one more here. This one's from Angel. Thank you so much,

34:02

Judy. Angel said, I

34:04

feel like I've found community here

34:06

in these minimalist chats. I really

34:08

benefit from having the perspectives and

34:10

experiences of other aspiring minimalists. I

34:12

feel our community is curious, accepting,

34:14

and loving. So earlier this year,

34:16

Judah, at the beginning of this year, we left social

34:18

media. After our most

34:21

successful year ever, I think we reached half a

34:23

billion people last year on social media. We

34:26

decided, hey, it's like Jordan after his sixth ring.

34:28

I was like, can I really do a seventh?

34:30

No, he couldn't have, obviously. But that's a different

34:32

story. I can't say that. I

34:34

can't say that. I'm

34:37

curious. Why are you such an

34:39

idiot about Michael Jordan? It's

34:43

the first time he's been wrong in this whole recording. Don't

34:46

ask the questions that way. That's not curiosity.

34:49

But that's usually how we ask them, or at

34:51

least in tone, as Judah talked about earlier. The

34:54

reasons that we left social media wasn't because we were denouncing

34:56

it. I love what Anthony de Melis says.

34:58

As soon as you denounce a thing, you're forever tied to it.

35:01

And isn't that true? But what we said is, let's

35:03

step back for a while to see whether or not

35:05

it's actually adding value. And what do

35:07

we miss from it? What am I

35:09

going to learn from this? It's the same thing that I did

35:11

with my material possessions 15 years ago, when

35:14

we first started simplifying as the minimalist.

35:17

It was like, okay, remove this from my life for a period of time. And

35:20

if I really miss it, if it really added value,

35:22

I can bring it back in. But the truth is,

35:24

most of the things I eliminate from my life, they

35:26

didn't add any value at all. They were just getting

35:29

in the way. And the question is, in what way

35:31

is the social media getting in the way? And

35:33

so what we did, what Angel is mentioning

35:36

here on Patreon, we have these community chats

35:38

that all of our patrons, even the free

35:40

members, so if you can't afford a subscription

35:42

to the Minimalist Private Podcast and

35:45

get all the bonus stuff that we do

35:47

over there, the extended episodes, et cetera, you

35:49

can still join the community chats on Patreon.

35:51

Because we wanted to create this community space,

35:54

and it's so much more loving than if

35:56

we were on Twitter or TikTok, because there

35:58

are people here who are... communing

36:00

around a shared idea, but they're

36:02

showing up with that curiosity. They

36:04

are showing up listening, but they're

36:06

also showing up and sharing and

36:09

contributing and adding value in a

36:11

way that is not battering other

36:13

people. We have so many

36:15

other things to talk about. So many other people

36:17

responded to this topic as well. You can

36:19

read dozens of other listener responses in the Patreon

36:21

community chat. You can join for free if you'd

36:24

like. Of course, we'd love for you to support

36:26

our work financially, but if you can't afford it,

36:28

you can still join those community chats by

36:30

becoming a free member on Patreon. The

36:32

link is in the description. How about

36:34

you listeners? How difficult is it for

36:36

you to build a community with people

36:38

you disagree with? Let us know in

36:40

the comments. Okay, give me something pithy,

36:42

TK. How difficult is it

36:45

to build a community with people you

36:47

disagree with? So I'll

36:49

go with neighbors aren't always chosen, but

36:51

learning to live with them is. You

36:55

can't really be an instrument of peace unless

36:58

you're willing to endure some difficult

37:00

interactions with some difficult people. You

37:03

can't be an example of love unless you're

37:05

willing to give love to some people who

37:08

aren't in a heart space or a head space to love

37:10

you back. You can't

37:12

be an example of grace unless you're willing

37:14

to affirm the possibility

37:16

of redemption even when people are

37:18

behaving the most disgracefully. And

37:21

you can't be an example of light unless you're

37:23

willing to courageously show up in

37:26

places where darkness permeates. And

37:28

so I think community is

37:31

not just about the

37:33

religious guy enjoying his time around religious

37:35

people. It's not just about

37:37

the fitness person enjoying their time around

37:39

fitness people. It's not just going to

37:41

the book club so I can be around people that love

37:43

books. It's being Darrell

37:45

Davis and going into those

37:47

spaces where they hate everything that I

37:50

represent and engaging

37:52

them with curiosity and courage and

37:54

winning some people over. And Darrell Davis is

37:57

the template for this because he didn't show up and shame

37:59

anyone. He didn't say... you're actually doing it wrong

38:01

guys. Cause he wouldn't have gotten very

38:03

far had he done that. And they say, yeah, of course we're

38:05

doing it wrong. We hate you. And

38:07

of course you're gonna say we're doing

38:09

it wrong. But he showed up and

38:11

he sold them where they were right

38:13

then. And simply by

38:15

seeing them and

38:17

introducing that way of living,

38:20

he created that sense of community. His

38:23

way to add value was to show

38:25

up and see them for who they

38:27

were. And by the way, he couldn't go

38:29

undercover, right? He was seen

38:31

from the moment. They Chappelle did it. Hahaha.

38:39

I think you broke TK. He's

38:42

shaking his head. Finish

38:49

that thought though. What

38:52

are we gonna do? He can't breathe. Hahaha.

38:57

So good. I got something to pithy for you. Let's

38:59

see here. What do I got? Every

39:02

disagreement is an opportunity for self reflection.

39:04

And I mean

39:06

that because TK has shown me that again

39:08

and again and again. He and I disagree

39:10

on so many things, but in a loving

39:12

way. There's never an argument about the things

39:14

that we disagree about. In fact, it's always

39:16

this moment for self reflection where it's like,

39:18

okay, he's either solidifying

39:20

my idea or changing my mind about the

39:22

idea. He convinces me so much without ever

39:25

trying to convince me. Never drags me to

39:27

his point of view, but simply shows me

39:29

a articulated point of view

39:31

that resonates with me. And even if I

39:33

afterward I'm like, nope, that's still doesn't resonate

39:35

for whatever reason. That's okay. It was still

39:37

a moment for self reflection. Any last words

39:40

on that Judah? The ancient scripture

39:42

says, iron sharpens iron. And it occurs to me

39:44

as I'm sitting in the middle of you too,

39:46

that I'm like, wow, that's what Joshua and TK

39:48

do for each other. And I

39:50

see in your eyes the desire for more

39:53

of that, not to avoid that. And perhaps

39:55

that's the magic here. Perhaps that's the sauce

39:57

behind what you do and the space that

39:59

you do. that you provide for people is

40:01

that you both are actually, clearly it's evident

40:04

to me that you're looking to see where

40:06

do I see it differently? And how can

40:08

I learn from you? And how will you

40:10

learn from me? And perhaps we'll grow more

40:12

together. And I just think this idea of

40:15

monolithic living where we're all just the same

40:18

loses a lot of its punch and vigor

40:20

and spice. And I feel it here and

40:23

I love it, I'm for it. I

40:25

was wrong as one of the most freeing

40:27

things to say. Yeah. And

40:30

although it's one of the most difficult

40:32

things to say as well, especially in

40:34

an age that is amplified by social

40:36

media where if you're wrong, now your

40:38

wrongness becomes amplified. You become the paragon

40:41

of wrongness for a particular community. And

40:43

so it's really scary to be wrong,

40:45

but it's also really freeing. If I

40:47

step out and say, you know what?

40:49

I was wrong about that. Or simply

40:52

I changed my mind and that's totally

40:54

okay. All right, that's the end of

40:56

page one. We still have an entire

40:58

switchboard of callers to talk to Judah

41:00

on pages two and three, but real

41:03

quick for right here, right now, it's a little

41:05

segment we do where we talk about one thing

41:07

that's going on in the life of the minimalist.

41:10

Actually I've got two things because Malabama has just

41:12

did this sleep meditation and it

41:14

is awesome. It's part of this three-part meditation

41:16

series that she's done. She did a walking

41:18

meditation, a decluttering meditation, and now the sleep

41:21

meditation. You can listen to all three, but

41:23

I wouldn't listen to this one while driving.

41:27

Ha ha ha ha ha! He

41:30

looked dead in the eye. I

41:32

was not prepared for that. Yes, please

41:34

don't do that while you're driving. She

41:38

has the most beautiful voice and these meditations are

41:40

just outstanding. You can find all three of them.

41:42

We'll put a link to them in the show

41:44

notes on Patreon. Malabama, you did such a great

41:47

job with these. Which one was your favorite to

41:49

do? Oh gosh, that's so

41:51

hard. You know, I would

41:53

probably say the sleep meditation as

41:56

somebody who is pretty new to meditation

41:58

compared to... You guys have spent a

42:00

lot more time with it than I

42:02

have, but as an anxious person, I

42:04

definitely have benefited from that. The

42:07

sleep meditation was really fun because it allowed me

42:09

an opportunity to be even a little bit

42:11

vulnerable and kind of play with the listener in

42:13

a way that empowered them to let go

42:15

of their own anxieties. I know for me, they

42:18

kind of pile up at the end of

42:20

the day. You always feel like you could have

42:22

done more, you could have done something better. You're

42:24

like rehashing this weird thing you said to

42:26

your coworker at lunch. I fall

42:29

subject to those all of the time. And so it

42:31

felt nice to be able to say, hey, if

42:34

this is something that you struggle with or something

42:36

that's similar, like you're not alone. And here's

42:38

some things that can help you through it. I

42:40

even give a little tip about something that's

42:43

a fail safe for me, works every single time,

42:45

but you got to listen all the way at

42:47

the very end. If you are not asleep

42:49

yet, then you'll find it. Oh, it's so good,

42:51

so good. I particularly enjoyed the, I liked

42:53

all three, but the decluttering meditation was just this

42:56

unique thing that I've never even thought

42:58

about or until now it's

43:01

like, oh yeah, decluttering can be

43:03

a meditative process. You can be

43:05

present while you are letting go.

43:07

One more thing for you, Black

43:09

Friday is this week. You

43:12

can read my Black Friday essay over at

43:14

theminimalists.com. We'll put a link to it in

43:16

the show notes as well. It's

43:18

that time of year, one of the

43:20

most stressful times of year for a

43:22

lot of people. We've turned the holiday

43:24

season into the holiday shopping season.

43:28

And we're anxious, we're overwhelmed, we're stressed

43:30

out. We feel as though we need

43:32

to buy things in an obligatory fashion.

43:35

And we're manipulated by corporations and advertisers

43:37

that tell us that you are a

43:39

good friend, a good parent, a good

43:42

sibling, but if and only if you

43:44

part with those dollars that are in

43:46

your checking account or even worse, you

43:48

go into debt to give. That's not

43:51

what the spirit of the holidays are.

43:54

Yes, giving is the spirit, but

43:56

obligatory gift giving is not the

43:58

same thing. Check out that Black

44:01

Friday essay at theminimalists.com. We'll

44:03

put a link to it in the show notes. Malabama, what else you got

44:05

for us? Here's a minimalist insight from one of

44:07

our listeners. Hello, minimalist team.

44:09

My name is Allison and I

44:11

live in Oklahoma, USA. And

44:15

I was just inspired to send

44:17

you guys a voice note to

44:19

say thank you and express gratitude

44:21

and appreciation for your podcast

44:24

and your content and your authenticity

44:26

and just all of the things

44:28

that you share. I

44:30

got divorced a little over a year ago

44:33

and it was just a really difficult experience

44:36

for me. I basically started my

44:38

life over, completely moved out and

44:40

got rid of almost all of my

44:42

things. And right

44:44

about this time is when I

44:47

became a Patreon subscriber. And honestly,

44:49

I binged the

44:51

episodes like crazy. It

44:54

was such a difficult and challenging time in my life,

44:58

especially towards the beginning. And

45:01

your podcast just really carried me

45:03

and gave me not only some emotional

45:05

and energetic support, but

45:08

as well as actual tangible things

45:10

to do as

45:12

far as cleaning out and getting rid of

45:14

physical items and emotional clutter. And I'm just

45:17

so, so grateful because

45:19

I feel like your podcast was such

45:22

a big influence on me and one

45:24

of the things that really helped support

45:26

me through my divorce and just rebuilding

45:28

my life. So I'm still a Patreon

45:30

subscriber. I listen every week. I always

45:32

look forward to the episode and the

45:34

content. So thank you all for

45:37

everything you do. You make such a difference.

45:39

And I just wanted to, again, say thank

45:41

you, express all my

45:43

gratitude, love, and appreciation. Many

45:45

blessings. Alison, thank

45:47

you so much for that

45:49

heartfelt comment and congratulations on

45:51

your graduation from that relationship,

45:53

moving on, moving

45:56

beyond where you were and going where

45:58

you are going. For anyone else, as

46:00

a listener tip or insight about this episode

46:02

or any other episode, you can leave a

46:04

comment on Patreon or YouTube or better yet,

46:06

send a voice memo right from your phone

46:09

to podcast at theminimalists.com so we can feature

46:11

your voice on the show. All right, that's

46:13

the first 34% of episode 470. We'll

46:18

see you on Patreon for the full

46:20

maximal edition with Judah Smith, which includes

46:22

answers to a bunch more questions, questions

46:24

like, how can we use

46:26

our technology to connect us when

46:28

it feels like our screens are mostly disconnecting

46:31

us from other people? What's

46:33

the best way to leave a

46:36

dysfunctional community? What should

46:38

I do if I'm a good parent when

46:40

my kids aren't living up to my expectations

46:42

plus a million more questions and simple living

46:44

segments over on the Minimalist Private Podcast on

46:46

Patreon. By the way, Patreon is now offering

46:49

free trials. So if you'd like to test

46:51

drive our private podcast, you can join for

46:53

seven days for free. The link is in

46:55

the description. Big thanks to Judah Smith for

46:57

joining us today. You can check out the

47:00

Church Home app. We'll also put a

47:02

link to his YouTube channel and his

47:04

social media in the show notes. And

47:06

that is our minimal episode for today.

47:08

Big thanks to Earthing Studios for the

47:10

recording space. On behalf of Ryan Nicodemus,

47:13

T.K. Coleman, Malabama, Post Production Peter, Spire

47:15

Jeff, and Spire Dave, A.B.

47:17

and Savvy D. And we had a studio

47:19

audience today. We had Wes and Genevieve here

47:21

with Judah as well and the

47:24

rest of our team. Thanks to y'all. My

47:26

name's Joshua Fields Milburn. If you leave here with

47:28

just one message, let it be

47:30

this. Love people and

47:33

use things because

47:35

the opposite never works. Thanks

47:38

for listening, y'all. We'll see you next time.

47:40

Peace. Every little

47:42

thing you think that

47:44

you need. Every

47:47

little thing you think

47:49

that you need. Every

47:51

little thing that's just feeding

47:53

your greed. Oh, I bet

47:56

that you'll be fine without

47:58

it. you