0:01

Every little thing

0:03

you think that

0:06

you need every

0:08

little thing you

0:11

think that you need

0:14

every little thing you

0:16

think that you need

0:19

every little thing you

0:22

think that you need

0:24

Every little thing that's

0:27

just feeding your greed.

0:29

Oh, I bet that

0:32

you'll be fine without

0:35

it. You're listening to

0:37

the Minimalist podcast with

0:40

Joshua Fields Milburn and

0:42

T.K. Coleman. Recorded live

0:44

at Irving Studios in

0:46

Sunny California. Yes, thank you,

0:48

Malabama. Hello everybody. Sunny indeed, although

0:51

just yesterday I was going out

0:53

for a little hike. And there

0:55

was snow on top of the

0:58

mountains because I guess it was

1:00

rain for a day and the

1:02

snow in Ohio was there. And

1:05

man, was it beautiful? Two days

1:07

before that it was 84 degrees.

1:09

So amazing weather. Greetings from sunny.

1:12

California. Thank you, Alabama. Hello, everybody.

1:14

Today we're talking about the many

1:16

ways in which minimalism is different

1:19

from the act of renouncing your

1:21

things. We often confuse the two.

1:23

We're going to talk about that.

1:25

We're also going to talk about

1:28

and explore the unforeseen downsides of

1:30

renunciation. So coming up on this

1:32

free public minimal episode, a caller

1:34

has a question about foregoing impulse

1:37

purchases that will soon turn into

1:39

junk. And then we've got a

1:41

funny but insightful question about the

1:43

toppings that definitely don't belong on

1:45

a pizza. That's all of our

1:47

right here right now segment and

1:49

a listener tip. You can check

1:51

out the maximal edition of episode

1:53

483. That's the full two hour

1:55

episode where we answer three times

1:57

as many questions over on page.

2:00

link is in the description. When

2:02

you subscribe, you can listen to

2:04

our private podcast episodes on Apple

2:06

Podcast or Spotify or whatever your

2:08

favorite podcast app is. Plus, you'll

2:10

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2:12

archives all the way back to

2:14

episode zero zero one. That's a

2:16

full decade of podcast archives. By

2:18

the way, big thanks to our

2:20

patrons. Your support keeps our podcast

2:22

100% advertisement free because sing along

2:24

at home, y'all. Advertisements suck. No,

2:26

we're not renouncing advertisements, but they

2:28

do kind of taste. It tastes

2:30

kind of bad. We'll talk about

2:32

that here in a bit. Anyway,

2:34

let's start with our callers. If

2:36

you have a question or comment

2:38

for our show, we'd love to

2:40

hear from you. Our phone number

2:42

is 406-219-839, or you can email

2:44

a voice recording right from your

2:46

phone to podcast at the minimalist.com.

2:48

Our first question today is from

2:50

Jess. Hello, my name is Jess

2:53

from North Dakota. I'm a patron.

2:55

Super glad to be part of

2:57

this community. I have a question

3:00

around purchasing things. I don't really

3:02

do New Year's Eve resolutions, but

3:04

I have been thinking about maybe

3:06

doing something around the lines of

3:09

not buying anything. I don't really

3:11

need such as, you know, food

3:13

and things like that. I do

3:15

really well with it for a

3:18

while, but then I end up

3:20

just like binging and blowing a

3:22

bunch of money in one day.

3:25

And I just am curious, like,

3:27

when you chose to not buy

3:29

anything for a year, or however

3:31

long it was, what helped you

3:34

remember? Because of the moment it

3:36

feels like I really need it.

3:38

But then I just... I don't

3:40

know, maybe I don't need it

3:43

as much as I thought I

3:45

did. I don't know. Anyway, I'd

3:47

love to hear your thoughts. Thanks.

3:49

I really need it. Gotta have

3:52

it! I've heard my daughter say

3:54

that so many times, I need

3:56

it, we'll be at a store.

3:59

There was one time, I told

4:01

the story and love people use

4:03

things, we were at a store

4:05

and my daughter asked like, can

4:08

I get something while we're here?

4:10

And I said, what do you

4:12

want? And she goes, I don't

4:14

know, but I just want something.

4:17

And we developed these patterns of,

4:19

I feel like I really need

4:21

it. In the moment, it feels

4:24

urgent, it feels real, because you

4:26

have that emotion, and that scarcity

4:28

mindset creeps in, the impulse then

4:30

takes over, and I am incomplete

4:33

without it. I didn't even know

4:35

this thing existed before I got

4:37

into the store. I wasn't even

4:39

thinking about this thing before I

4:42

got into the store. when I

4:44

got into the store, but now

4:46

that I'm here, it's enticing and

4:48

I really need it. Now what

4:51

Jess is referring to is... way

4:53

back in 2011. We were a

4:55

few weeks into starting the minimalists.com,

4:58

Nicodemus and I. And I was

5:00

looking for things to write about.

5:02

I'd never done New Year's resolutions

5:04

and I said, you know what,

5:07

we're the minimalist now, I'm going

5:09

to not purchase anything for an

5:11

entire year. It wasn't really about

5:13

the spirit of renunciation. We're going

5:16

to get into what renunciation means

5:18

in a moment, but it was

5:20

about, hey, as a minimalist, it

5:23

should be. purchase consumables if I

5:25

need to buy soap or toilet

5:27

paper. I'm not going to deprive

5:29

myself of that. But I realized

5:32

that I was programmed. And as

5:34

soon as I went into this

5:36

experiment, I felt a lot like

5:38

Jess. I'd get into the store

5:41

and my programming was, oh, that's

5:43

really nice. Oh, I think I'll

5:45

buy it. And then, of course,

5:47

I couldn't buy it because I

5:50

was doing this experiment where I'm

5:52

not going to buy anything for

5:54

an entire year. Oh, I can't.

5:57

But over the course of the

5:59

first five months, what I found

6:01

is I reprogrammed that impulse where

6:03

I would show up to a

6:06

store to buy some toilet paper

6:08

or to buy some toothpaste and

6:10

there'd be something else there that

6:12

I really need it. But that

6:15

really needed transformed into, oh,

6:17

that's nice, or oh, doesn't that look

6:19

cool, or wow. It's like going to a

6:22

museum and seeing a piece of art. I'll

6:24

never try to take a Picasso painting off

6:26

the wall and bring it home with me.

6:28

Not only because I get arrested, but I

6:31

know that I couldn't afford it financially, but

6:33

also maybe I can't afford everything

6:35

that's associated with bringing this product

6:38

home from Target or Walmart or

6:40

Macy's or Bloomingdale's or wherever we

6:42

are, amazon.com, right? Where we go

6:44

to these places and I feel

6:46

like I really need it.

6:49

Minimalism is the amplification of

6:51

spaciousness. Minimalism is the thing that

6:53

gets us past the things so

6:55

we can focus on life's most

6:57

important things, which it turns out

6:59

aren't things at all. And renunciation

7:01

is a little bit different. I

7:04

have the Marian Webster. definition

7:06

here in front of me. I usually... Thank

7:09

goodness you didn't bring the book, the

7:11

whole dictionary. You'd be torn in half

7:13

by now. I usually, I like to

7:15

avoid definitions, but with this one in

7:17

particular, I think it makes sense to

7:19

make a distinction because a lot of

7:22

people find minimalism, whether they find one

7:24

of our documentaries on Netflix or they

7:26

see a YouTube video from us or

7:29

they find someone else who's into decluttering

7:31

and they think about minimalism as a

7:33

renunciation as a renunciation. of things. And

7:35

on the surface, I could see why

7:38

you might think that. Oh yeah, it's

7:40

about getting rid of your stuff and

7:42

living with nothing. And that's a parody

7:45

of minimalism. The paradox of

7:47

minimalism is I get far more

7:49

value from my things now, not

7:51

because I renounced things, but because

7:53

I got rid of the things

7:55

that were in the way. They're

7:57

actually blocking the value of the

7:59

things. that were right there in front

8:01

of me, or could be right there

8:04

in front of me if they weren't

8:06

covered up by all of this excess.

8:08

So letting go of the excess, letting

8:11

go of the clutter, letting go of

8:13

the things that are in the way,

8:15

that's really what minimalism as a lifestyle

8:17

is about. Of course, there are different

8:20

types of minimalism, minimalist literature, minimalist architecture,

8:22

etc. etc. When we're talking about minimalism

8:24

as a lifestyle, it's about getting rid

8:27

of the excess that's in the way.

8:29

You contrast that with something like renunciationunciation

8:31

like renunciation, renunciation. And I have this

8:33

definition here in front of me, to

8:36

renounces to give up, refuse, or resign,

8:38

usually by formal declaration. And so when

8:40

we say, hey, I'm going to give

8:43

up purchases for a year, maybe that

8:45

is a type of renunciation, but there's

8:47

always a light at the end of

8:49

the tunnel with these little stoical experiments

8:52

we do. A year is usually too

8:54

long for most people. Last year, we

8:56

gave up social media for a year.

8:59

Personally for a year, 10 months for

9:01

the minimalists. And you and I had

9:03

a conversation. The reason that we're doing

9:05

this episode today is when Courtney Carver

9:08

was in here, we were doing that

9:10

five-part series. Do you remember what I

9:12

said to you that triggered an almost

9:15

an emotional response in you? Do you

9:17

remember what I said? You were talking

9:19

to Courtney and you said something to

9:21

the effect of not wanting to renounce

9:24

social media. And it sounded to me

9:26

like you were accusing yourself of doing

9:28

that. I called you and says, hey,

9:31

I never saw you talking like that

9:33

or acting like that. Why would you

9:35

describe yourself in that way? And my

9:37

fear was that we were renouncing it

9:40

because As soon as you renounce something,

9:42

you're tied to it. In fact, you're

9:44

forever defined by the things you renounce.

9:47

And so I'm not against renouncing something,

9:49

but I think there's a difference between

9:51

renouncing something and saying that is something

9:53

I'm not going to do. I'm forcing

9:56

it out of my life because then

9:58

you become... defined by it. My mother

10:00

was an alcoholic and she went to

10:03

AA regularly, but her life when she

10:05

was sober was seemed to be even

10:07

more defined by alcohol and alcoholism through

10:09

the renunciation of it. Now perhaps that

10:12

was the best thing for her in

10:14

that case, that level of abstinence. I

10:16

remember we had Peter Rollins on the

10:19

show, he said, whenever I... talk to

10:21

or counsel a sex worker, they are

10:23

always talking about God because it's the

10:25

thing that they feel like they've renounced.

10:28

And so when I talk to priests,

10:30

they're always talking about like sex and

10:32

the obsession around that. And there's something

10:35

about, and I'm interested in your take

10:37

on this TK, when we renounce something,

10:39

we become obsessed with it in a

10:41

way, maybe because it's off limits. Yeah,

10:44

the renunciation of renunciation is an interesting

10:46

concept there. Yeah, yeah, there's something to

10:48

this. You know, it's almost like the

10:51

old experiment of, hey, try really hard

10:53

right now to not think about an

10:55

elephant. Okay, don't think about an elephant.

10:57

Whatever you do, don't think about that.

11:00

You are more likely in this moment

11:02

to be thinking about an elephant than

11:04

just about anything else, because you're trying

11:07

so hard to not think about an

11:09

elephant. And the problem with that is

11:11

we're motivated to not do these things

11:13

because there's something within us saying I

11:16

am called to something higher. I exist

11:18

for something that matters more than this

11:20

for a deeper kind of life, a

11:23

richer kind of pleasure. And so we

11:25

feel that desire to say no to

11:27

the superficial pleasure, but since that's all

11:29

we know is the addiction. the attachment,

11:32

we cling ourselves to it more strongly

11:34

by saying, I'm not going to do

11:36

it. And so we walk around all

11:39

day, I'm not going to do that

11:41

thing, I'm not going to smoke a

11:43

cigarette today, I'm not going to smoke

11:45

a cigarette today, I'm not going to

11:48

smoke, I'm not going to lose my

11:50

cool, I'm not going to lose my

11:52

cool, I'm not going to impose by,

11:55

I'm not going to impose by. And

11:57

the moment that we're vulnerable, we miss

11:59

out. I'm not going to answer to

12:01

TK anymore. I'm just going to answer

12:04

to Rick. That's my new name. And I

12:06

tell everyone to call me Rick, right?

12:08

And I go around saying, I'm not

12:10

answering to TK, I'm not TK, I'm

12:12

not TK, I'm not TK, I'm not TK,

12:14

hey, Rick. Somebody says, hey, TK, I'm

12:16

not, somebody says, hey, I'm not TK,

12:18

I'm not TK. Hey, somebody, I'm dozinging

12:21

off. Someone's gonna catch me sleeping. They're

12:23

gonna say TK and I'm gonna go,

12:25

huh? Oh, darn it, I screwed up.

12:27

Because that's just not how it works.

12:29

So what is the underlying why that

12:31

makes you want to renout something in

12:33

the first place? And how can you

12:36

translate that no into something that you

12:38

want to say yes to? On the

12:40

other side of every no is a

12:42

higher reality that you want to

12:44

embrace and engage that you

12:46

want to say yes to

12:48

and throw yourself into that.

12:50

And so for me, renunciation

12:52

is about redemption. We don't

12:54

renunciate things or renounce things

12:56

rather. we are looking to

12:58

redeem things, to reclaim things,

13:00

to restore them to their

13:02

rightful, healthful place. And how

13:04

do you do that? By

13:06

creating a little distance

13:08

between you and the habitual,

13:11

familiar, autopilot usage of

13:13

the thing. There's the

13:15

old saying that water

13:17

is to love, but it

13:19

rekindles the great. Whatever is

13:22

good, whatever is true in the things

13:24

that we desire, that only becomes purified

13:26

and amplified in a positive way when

13:28

we exercise the self-control to step away

13:31

from it and hit the reset button

13:33

so that we can see it far away

13:35

and not just up close. I love

13:38

this distinction you're making. Would you say

13:40

that then minimalism at its best as

13:42

a way to redeem our things to

13:45

get more value from the things and

13:47

not... renounce the things, but also there

13:49

could be a spirit of renouncing clutter,

13:51

but that is not, man, that is

13:54

so hard to define because what is

13:56

clutter to me is not clutter to

13:58

thee, right? And therefore... for something that

14:00

gets in my way might serve you

14:03

perfectly and might be a prized possession

14:05

for you. But I can guarantee you

14:07

if you took 10 people who are

14:09

listening to this right now and you

14:11

got their top 10 possessions, the things

14:13

that added the most value to their

14:15

lives, we'd have 100 super valuable possessions.

14:18

valuable to them. And you put them

14:20

in this room, in this studio, which

14:22

is relatively small space, what is it,

14:24

700 square feet or something. Now we

14:26

just have 100 items. They become clutter,

14:28

even if they're not clutter for those

14:30

people, they're clutter in the context here.

14:33

And the best way to redeem those

14:35

things is to make sure they're in

14:37

the appropriate home and maybe even the

14:39

appropriate space in that home. Does that

14:41

distinction make sense to you? It makes

14:43

a lot of sense, and it also

14:45

reveals the importance of having some sense

14:47

of why, some sense of purpose, because

14:49

you can't even know what clutter is

14:51

unless you know what it's getting in

14:53

the way of, in the same way that you can't

14:55

know that you have a problem, unless you

14:58

have some desired state that this problem is

15:00

disrupting or getting in the way of, right?

15:02

What does that mean to say, hey, if

15:04

you walk into this room and you see

15:06

a tire sitting there in the middle of

15:08

the floor? How do you know that's a

15:11

problem? Because you have an ideal

15:13

state that you want this room

15:15

to be in, and that's getting

15:17

in the way of that. You

15:19

want a room that's unobstructed. You

15:21

want space that you can move

15:23

around freely in. And that's how

15:25

you know the tires, the tires

15:27

are problem. So how can we

15:30

identify clutter by knowing what our

15:32

why is? Another thing that's so

15:34

helpful with conversations like this too

15:36

is we hear the phrase count

15:39

your blessings, wanting things, thinking

15:41

in the moment that we need them.

15:43

And then the world says no to us.

15:45

And a few months or a few years

15:47

later, we look back on that moment and

15:50

we say, oh my gosh, I dodged a

15:52

bullet. Oh my gosh, you save my life

15:54

by not giving me what I want it.

15:56

But then we just kind of move on

15:58

and we forget about those. But we all

16:00

could feel books with those types of

16:03

experiences. And when you take note of

16:05

them, when you write them down, when

16:07

you collect them, you start to

16:09

accumulate a strong foundation for a

16:12

different kind of faith. You start

16:14

to develop a different kind of

16:16

faith. You start to develop a

16:19

healthy sense of mistrust in those

16:21

impulses. You realize that just because

16:23

it really feels like I need

16:25

something in the moment, doesn't mean

16:28

that I actually need it. Why?

16:30

That makes sense to me. And

16:32

there's several synonyms here I found

16:35

in the dictionary. Abandonment is one.

16:37

So abandoning of things is not

16:39

something that minimalism does. A resignation

16:41

of things. It's obviously the opposite.

16:44

We're not ascetics. People often think

16:46

about that. Like we're going to

16:48

live in a cave somewhere that

16:50

we are doing ascetic practices that

16:52

you know intentionally increase our level

16:54

of pain or suffering in order

16:57

to reach some sort of state

16:59

of an I'm not necessarily against

17:01

those things, even if they're not

17:03

for me. At best, I hope

17:05

that I don't come across with

17:07

a spirit of renunciation with anything

17:10

here, even with advertisements. Start off

17:12

as a joke. When we did

17:14

this show, it started, we didn't

17:16

have any advertisers, and I just

17:18

didn't like ads. It didn't feel

17:21

good to me. I didn't like the

17:23

taste of it. The same way that

17:25

I don't renounce oysters, I simply don't

17:27

eat them. I don't smoke cigarettes, I've

17:29

never renounced them. but my life is

17:32

also not defined by it. And so

17:34

it's possible to go without, to remove

17:36

a thing even from your life, without

17:39

renouncing it. And if there is a

17:41

reason to bring something back in, once

17:43

you let it go, if you set

17:45

something down, it's okay to pick it

17:48

back up if it's going to add

17:50

value to your life in some way.

17:52

Which makes me curious, TK. Is

17:54

there anything that you have renounced

17:56

in the past that you feel

17:58

like, oh yeah, I, uh, uh, I don't know

18:00

why I felt like the need

18:03

to renounce that. It's okay for

18:05

me to bring that back in

18:07

some way. That's a tough one.

18:09

That's a tough one because I'm

18:11

slow to universalize.

18:13

I think there are some things

18:16

that are wrong or unhealthy for

18:18

all of us, right? Like none

18:20

of us should be drinking Sinai.

18:22

But I try to practice

18:24

that sweep around your own

18:27

front door mentality. And the

18:29

big changes that I've had to

18:31

make and that I continue to fight

18:33

my battle in is with food and

18:35

eating. And for me, there are certain

18:37

things I just got to say no to,

18:40

and I see other people getting away

18:42

with it all the time, or at

18:44

least they look like they're getting away.

18:46

Sometimes people seem like they get away

18:49

with things, but they're not getting away

18:51

with it. But I see people who

18:53

look like they're getting away with things.

18:55

In some of those moments, I'm tempted to

18:57

feel a little jealous or I'm tempted to

19:00

say, now that's wrong what they're doing. But

19:02

it's like, well, they have a different metabolic

19:04

condition than me. They've got a

19:06

different way of digesting their food than me.

19:08

They haven't been in the hospital as far

19:10

as I know for what I've been for. I've

19:12

got to make the changes that

19:14

I need to make. and leave

19:17

them alone, right? Leave them alone.

19:19

Sometimes renunciation can come from a

19:21

good place of recognizing a true

19:23

source of universal evil. Oftentimes it

19:25

comes from a place of not

19:27

wanting to walk the path. You

19:29

have to walk alone and needing

19:32

to get other people to go

19:34

along with you and using condemnation

19:36

and the universalization of your own

19:38

constraints. Yeah, yeah. Well, to get

19:40

back to Jess's question and answer

19:42

it head on. For me, it

19:45

was much more about reprogramming my

19:47

impulses than it was about

19:49

just simply saying no to

19:51

things. But sometimes I had

19:53

to temporarily go without. It's

19:56

okay to temporarily deprive yourself.

19:58

You're not a deprivation. if

20:00

you simply go without for a while.

20:02

Have you ever tried to fast for

20:04

a long period of time? The longest

20:07

I ever fast it was six days.

20:09

And that wasn't a renunciation of food.

20:11

It was a test to see what

20:13

would happen. And of course I'm not

20:16

going to then. renounce food for the

20:18

rest of my life because the rest

20:20

of that life wouldn't be that long

20:22

at that point. But it does allow

20:25

you to understand what your limits are,

20:27

what your programming is, what your cravings

20:29

are. And so for me that experiment

20:31

of not purchasing anything for a year,

20:34

which by the way I failed at.

20:36

I tried all kinds of things, but

20:38

was it really a failure if I

20:40

learned all of these really amazing lessons?

20:43

About halfway into the year, I spilled

20:45

tea all over my computer and stopped

20:47

working, and I tried to get around

20:49

that, I'd go to the library to

20:52

do work, I'd go to Nicodemus'... condo

20:54

and I'd borrow his laptop to write

20:56

things and then I would take these

20:58

yellow legal paths that I had at

21:00

home and I'd fill those up. But

21:03

once those filled up, I couldn't buy

21:05

more paper and my pen ran out

21:07

of ink and I couldn't buy another

21:09

pen. And at some point it did

21:12

feel like renunciation, did feel like an

21:14

unnecessary deprivation. And so eventually I broke

21:16

down about six months into the experiment,

21:18

six or seven months in, and I

21:21

bought a new used computer that was

21:23

new to me. that point. And because

21:25

I realized it wasn't about not making

21:27

purchases. That's not what this experiment was

21:30

about. It was about understanding the patterns,

21:32

the habits that had steered me down

21:34

this path of debt and over-consumption and

21:36

acquiring all of these things that had

21:39

gotten in the way. Jess, I'd love

21:41

to send you a copy of the

21:43

minimalist book. It's called Essential. It's a

21:45

collection of 150 essays. There's 12 different

21:48

areas of intentional living in that book.

21:50

And you know, I'm a sucker for

21:52

first lines. And it's one of my

21:54

favorite first lines of any of our

21:57

books. And that first line is, there's

21:59

a shopping mall in San Diego that

22:01

used to be a prison. The argument

22:03

in that essay is that maybe it

22:06

is a different kind of. prison now.

22:08

We're imprisoned by our things. We're holding

22:10

on to all of these things. Our

22:12

prison cells are built with bars of

22:15

consumption or really bars of over consumption.

22:17

And so I'd love to send you

22:19

a copy of essential. It's available in

22:21

paperback or e-book, whichever you'd like, Jess,

22:24

will send you a copy of essential.

22:26

Before we get back to our callers,

22:28

Malabama, what time is it? You know

22:30

what time it is. It's time for

22:33

the lightning round where we answer the

22:35

Yes, indeed. Now, during the lightning round,

22:37

we attempt to answer your question with

22:39

a short, shareable minimal maxim. You could

22:42

find this episode's Maxims in the Show

22:44

Notes over at the minimalists.com/podcast and every

22:46

minimal maxim ever at minimal maxims.com ever

22:48

at minimal maxims.com. We'll also deliver our

22:51

weekly show notes directly to your inbox,

22:53

including seven new Maxims every Monday for

22:55

free. If you sign up for our

22:57

email newsletter newsletter at the minimalists. email.

23:00

We'll never send you spam or junk

23:02

or junk or ads, but we will

23:04

start your week off with a dose.

23:06

of simplicity. What's the question of the

23:09

week this week? What topping should never

23:11

go on pizza? Why? Uh-oh. No, Bama,

23:13

when we posted this in the patron

23:15

community chat, tell me about the experience

23:18

over there. I had way too much

23:20

fun and I think so did the

23:22

patrons. At one point, someone asked in

23:24

there, I ran out of room collecting

23:27

my favorites, y'all, you guys are so

23:29

funny. Someone was like, are we about

23:31

to have a podcast on pizza clutter?

23:33

But they were so creative and they

23:36

were fun and they were very playful

23:38

with it, which just made it so

23:40

enjoyable. But yeah, we were trying to

23:42

brainstorm something that would tie in with

23:45

renunciation. And I jokingly said to you,

23:47

pineapple on pizza, yay or nay. And

23:49

you're like, hang on, wait, there's something

23:51

there. And I'm like, no, I'm kidding,

23:53

what? I loved it because, you know,

23:56

here's the thing. Some people really enjoy

23:58

pineapple on pizza. into this question, let's

24:00

be a little playful with it. If

24:02

you're ordering one pizza for the rest

24:05

of your life, Malabamma, what is it,

24:07

what does it taste like? What toppings

24:09

are on it or not on it? Oh, you

24:11

don't want to ask me that. Like, I don't,

24:13

I'm a maximalist with pizza. Go for it. So

24:16

was my mother. I mean. Listen, where I

24:18

live, there's a pizza place right next

24:20

door to me that sells pizzas with

24:22

blooming onions in the center, with shrimp

24:24

and tuna, with mocha bun crusts. Like,

24:27

I've had it all, it's all delicious.

24:29

I have not found something that's edible

24:31

and meant to be with... food that

24:33

I haven't liked on a pizza. You

24:35

know what? I think I'm pretty

24:37

similar to that. I like almost

24:40

any topping on a pizza that

24:42

is within reason. And my margin

24:44

of reason is really large here.

24:46

My mother, when I was growing

24:48

up, she used to always order

24:50

we go to Cassano's in Middletown,

24:53

Ohio, a Dayton Institute. And She

24:55

would order the everything, she wanted

24:57

everything plus anchovies, which is weird

24:59

that anchovies aren't included in the

25:01

everything because they even know like,

25:03

okay, a lot of people aren't

25:05

gonna want the anchovies on their

25:07

pizza. And so I grew up

25:09

eating everything on the pizza, including

25:11

anchovies, which just tasted like really

25:13

salty sausage to me. But I

25:15

would tell you that one of

25:17

my favorite things to do is

25:19

watch the Dave Portnoy videos, the

25:21

one bite pizza reviews. I don't

25:23

know if y'all are familiar with them,

25:26

but every time I'm at home with

25:28

Bex, we'll spend three minutes and just

25:30

watch a Dave Portnoy pizza video. He

25:32

puts one out every single day. He's

25:34

the owner of Barstool Sports, but he

25:37

goes to a pizza shop. Every day.

25:39

He goes to several and he just

25:41

films a bunch in a day in

25:43

different cities. He might be in Toledo,

25:46

Ohio one day or he might be

25:48

in North Dakota or Miami, Florida or

25:50

Denver and he's reviewing pizza, the local

25:52

pizza scene. He always rates the pizza

25:54

on a scale of 1 to 10, no

25:56

even number. So it's always like an 8.3 or a

25:59

7.6 or a 5. And he's pretty strict

26:01

with his guidelines, but he always

26:03

orders the same thing. And I

26:05

think it's for consistency. He always

26:07

orders a cheese pizza, like a

26:09

full cheese pizza, no other toppings,

26:11

because it's much more difficult to

26:13

compare all of these different things.

26:15

But I think also from a

26:17

preference standpoint, he seems to be

26:19

a minimalist with respect to his

26:21

pizza. It is dough, it's sauce,

26:23

it's cheese, and that's it. But

26:25

he doesn't want any of the

26:27

excess. And I think if I

26:30

had to order one pizza for

26:32

the rest of my life, it

26:34

would probably be that one. What

26:36

about you, Savvy D? I love

26:38

a Hawaiian. I love the pineapple.

26:40

Yeah, I love it. But I

26:42

honestly never have pizza because it

26:44

kind of just ruins the rest

26:46

of my day. Isn't that true?

26:48

That's another way to think about

26:50

it, right? It's delicious. You get

26:52

that moment of gustatory pleasure. But

26:54

then it's like, oh, what did

26:56

I do? And I know that

26:58

I haven't had pizza in so

27:00

long that if I had a

27:02

pizza right now, the rest of

27:05

my day would just be, maybe

27:07

the rest of my week, who

27:09

knows? I would just be like,

27:11

oh, why did I do it?

27:13

And because we don't think about

27:15

this moment of pleasure, this moment

27:17

of impulse. And it's not about

27:19

renouncing pizza for me, it's just

27:21

I know what the consequences are.

27:23

And it's not a price that

27:25

I am willing to pay. What

27:27

about you, TK? Oh, man. Assuming

27:29

it doesn't mess with your system,

27:31

like what's the topping for you?

27:33

I don't worry, Ben. I wasn't

27:35

going to torture you all with

27:37

that. Well, technically, I am no

27:40

longer able to eat pizza because

27:42

I'm indecisive, but that's my own

27:44

problem. Well, it's like, it's like

27:46

music, you know? There's joy in

27:48

a great lyric, but man, it's

27:50

the melody that catches me. So

27:52

when it comes to pieces, it's

27:54

not about the topping. It's what

27:56

it's about the sauce. Yes. So

27:58

the pizza that I'm eating for

28:00

the rest of my life is

28:02

pesto sauce instead of the marinara

28:04

or instead of the tomato sauce.

28:06

Get in patrons. It's pesto. Yeah.

28:08

Next time you order a cheese pizza get pesto as your sauce.

28:10

All right, so I want to encourage the patrons to yell at

28:13

TK and Savvy D for their takes here. No, but here's the

28:15

thing. We get back to the essence of this question. And before

28:17

we give our pithy answers that are more philosophical here, maybe let's

28:19

hear from some of our simpletons.

28:21

What did our listeners have to

28:23

say? Let's get to the fun

28:25

answers. Carly said, I have an

28:27

aversion to buffalo chicken pizza. I

28:30

don't like celery and I'm allergic

28:32

to peanuts. What makes a pizza

28:34

a pizza? How creative are we

28:37

don't have enough time? to existential.

28:39

But it is a great question.

28:41

What makes a pizza a pizza?

28:43

Last week we had that whole

28:46

conversation with Onica Harris and the

28:48

very end we were talking about

28:50

the sort of philosophical approach to

28:53

like with what she was talking

28:55

about said ultimately a thing things

28:57

don't exist. And what I meant

28:59

by that is like separate things

29:01

don't exist. If everything is one,

29:03

everything is birthed out of the

29:06

universe or the earth or whatever,

29:08

then it's all just one. Right?

29:10

So they're not separate things. And

29:12

it's sort of how we ended

29:14

the podcast episode. Now, obviously, we

29:16

know what we mean when we

29:18

say things, but I was talking

29:20

to my daughter about it, and

29:22

we maybe had a three-hour conversation

29:24

about the Onica Harris thing, because

29:26

I was talking about how there

29:28

is no self, and she's like, what

29:30

are you talking about? I'm right here,

29:32

right? And so we really got into

29:34

the details. What makes an Ella, an

29:36

Ella, what makes a pizza? a pizza.

29:38

If I put pine apples on it

29:41

is not not a pizza anymore. If

29:43

I put pineapples and peanuts on it,

29:45

is it not a pizza anymore? Or

29:47

it could simply be a pizza that

29:49

I don't enjoy consuming, but it's still

29:51

a pizza. What else? Douglas said definitely

29:53

pineapple, but not for the reason

29:56

you think, while something sweet

29:58

can complement the savory. as pineapple

30:00

would with ham, the very nature

30:02

of pineapple brings additional soginess into

30:05

the picture and thus extra napkins.

30:07

I will save my pineapple for

30:09

Pinja Calatas, thank you very much. Extra

30:11

napkins! What did Julie have to say?

30:13

Julie said, I try to be quite

30:15

open about toppings since the right execution

30:18

can make many ingredients work. I

30:20

thought chocolate would be a safe

30:22

one, but after googling chocolate pizza

30:24

and finding several results, and since

30:26

I haven't tried it, I can't

30:28

really... say it shouldn't be done

30:30

who am I to judge perhaps

30:32

it's delicious now that is the

30:34

spirit of letting go Julie like

30:36

you know what who am I

30:38

to judge maybe it's delicious and

30:40

maybe it's gross to me but

30:42

it's delicious to me but it's

30:44

delicious to someone else I don't

30:46

like oysters but every time I

30:48

go on tour with Nicodemus we

30:50

inevitably end up at an oyster

30:52

bar and he's just pounding a

30:54

bunch of oysters and I could

30:56

say well you shouldn't be eating

30:58

those But why? Who am

31:00

I to judge? Perhaps those

31:02

are delicious to him. What

31:04

else you got? Donna said anchovies.

31:06

I'm allergic and prefer not to die

31:09

during my dinner. There you go. And

31:11

so don't put anchovies on Donna's pizza.

31:13

And I think the peanut thing is

31:15

valid. I dated someone once who was

31:17

allergic to pineapple. So they had even

31:19

a different reason. They couldn't put pineapple

31:21

on a pizza. Even if it was

31:23

delicious to them, she was allergic to

31:25

mushrooms, coffee and pineapple. So I remember

31:27

one year at Christmas I wrapped all

31:30

three up in really nice, like fancy

31:32

paper. I got her a bag of

31:34

coffee. I got her a pineapple that

31:36

had all this beautiful wrapping on it.

31:38

And I got her a thing of

31:40

mushrooms. It was more of a metaphor. She

31:42

was an artist, so she totally got was

31:44

a metaphor of like, we often give gifts

31:46

that people end up being allergic to. Deep.

31:48

Can I say one thing about the anchovies

31:50

for people who are not Donna and not

31:53

going to die, but you want to try

31:55

to like them, but they're too salty. This

31:57

trick was given to me when I was

31:59

in college. like sliced tomato to go

32:01

like diced chunky tomato to balance out

32:03

the saltiness that is the only way

32:05

I've ever found it's enjoyable to have

32:07

anchovies because then it it kind of

32:09

balances it out that's my two cents

32:12

I quite enjoy them but I'd like

32:14

to try that for sure all right

32:16

what else Jackie said I was going

32:18

to say anything goes but now that

32:20

I've read everyone else's responses I agree

32:22

with Fay potatoes are a no-go I

32:24

don't know I mean I've never had

32:26

potatoes on a pizza on a pizza

32:28

but I mean, it's probably delicious. I've

32:31

had a sweet potato crust and it

32:33

was amazing. Oh yeah, I've had a

32:35

cauliflower crust and it was really good.

32:37

Exactly. And you guys have problems with

32:39

pesto man. That's unbelievable. I ain't got

32:41

beef with pesto, like I will absolutely

32:43

be down for pesto. Yeah, definitely don't

32:45

do beef with pesto. Wait, I thought

32:47

we were talking about deep dish. What's

32:50

pizza? It's not that. TK's like, I

32:52

thought we were talking about the correct

32:54

way to do pizza. Right, are you

32:56

guys talking about those like... Then slices

32:58

of bread with cheese on them, is

33:00

that what you're? I do not discriminate

33:02

against the different thicknesses of pizza. I

33:04

love them all. TK is renouncing real

33:06

pizza. I renounce all non Chicago style

33:09

deep dish pizza. Let's do one more.

33:11

This one's from Mike. We all have

33:13

different palates and different interests. It would

33:15

be a shame to dismiss one thing

33:17

outright. Yes, and that is the heart

33:19

of minimalism versus renunciation. Mike, you said

33:21

it best. Congratulations. How about you listeners?

33:23

What topping should never go on a

33:25

pizza. for you. And let us know

33:28

why. You can tell us in the

33:30

patron community chat, which by the way

33:32

is free. You can join it for

33:34

free, even if you don't subscribe to

33:36

the private podcast. Obviously, we'd love for

33:38

you to subscribe to the private podcast,

33:40

but join us in the patron community

33:42

chat. We have a whole community of

33:44

people. Thousands of you are interacting with

33:47

each other. Okay, give me something pithy,

33:49

TK. What topp should never go on

33:51

a pizza and why. Never choose an

33:53

I mean there's an obvious application to

33:55

this and that would be whatever it

33:57

is you want to... choose the first

33:59

step that's right for you because that

34:01

first step is critical. It can be

34:03

uncomfortable, it can be painful, it can

34:05

be extremely difficult, but you want that

34:08

first step to confirm you on your

34:10

path and make you feel like, all

34:12

right, even though this is hard, there's

34:14

something about this first step that really

34:16

reinforces the values that are driving me

34:18

for it. But when it comes to

34:20

pizza, this isn't something that we have

34:22

to eat. This is something that we

34:24

do in the spirit of play. And

34:27

when it comes to choosing what you

34:29

do in a spirit of play, you

34:31

gotta remember from James P. Carson, what

34:33

is the first rule of play, is

34:35

that one cannot be forced to play.

34:37

You can't play by somebody else's rules.

34:39

You can't play. You can be forced

34:41

to participate in a game, but you

34:43

gotta choose to play. And if you're

34:46

gonna do something for fun. Forget all

34:48

the opinions. You gotta have that for

34:50

other stuff in life. You gotta react

34:52

to what other people are doing with

34:54

other stuff in life. And there's plenty

34:56

of opportunity to be mad about what

34:58

somebody else likes and what somebody else

35:00

says. When it comes to the things

35:02

that you do for fun, be opinion

35:05

free. That's the one topping that should

35:07

never go on it. A freaking opinion.

35:09

I'm doing this for me and I'm

35:11

gonna have fun. I don't care what

35:13

you think and I don't care how

35:15

you have fun. Yes, yes, so good.

35:17

You're making me think about last week

35:19

I started to try a new stoical

35:21

experiment for me. It was setting down

35:24

this this verbiage of I have to

35:26

do something. Professor Sean was in here

35:28

last week. We were talking after the

35:30

podcast and he and I had some

35:32

meeting schedule and I said, hey, is

35:34

it okay if we do that one

35:36

on Zoom instead of in person? And

35:38

I was getting ready to say because

35:40

I have to go help my daughter

35:43

with some math stuff. And I said,

35:45

oh. I don't like the way that

35:47

feels. I want to go help my

35:49

daughter with some math stuff. Now, same

35:51

outcome, but just deciding that this is

35:53

what I want to do. If not,

35:55

why am I choosing to do it?

35:57

And even if it feels like something

35:59

that isn't that enjoyable in the moment,

36:02

there has to be a reason that

36:04

I'm doing it. I want to go

36:06

to work today. Well, why? Because... I

36:08

want to pay the bills that I,

36:10

instead of, I have to go to

36:12

work because everyone has to pay the

36:14

bills, that becomes a script, that becomes

36:16

a program. And there's even a flavor

36:18

of renunciation in that, like, I sure

36:21

would love to not have to do

36:23

this, but it's like, well, no, I'm

36:25

doing this for a reason. And so

36:27

I might as well want to do

36:29

it, because, I mean, the truth is

36:31

I do want to do it, or

36:33

at least I want the outcome that

36:35

is going to get it is going

36:37

to get me. Now TK, this question

36:40

about the pizza and what topics should

36:42

never go on at pizza, why did

36:44

we pick this one in our brainstorming

36:46

session when we had all of these

36:48

other, I guess, more practical options? Well,

36:50

because this topic of renunciation is about

36:52

our ideas regarding what we should never

36:54

do, what other people should never do,

36:56

and we knew that we get certain

36:59

kinds of answers if we tackled it

37:01

head-on philosophically, seriously in a straightforward manner.

37:03

But sometimes the insights you get from

37:05

people, when you can find a question

37:07

that's a little light-hearted, a little fun,

37:09

and they're not sure why you're asking

37:11

them, it just gets more revealing. And

37:13

Bama came up with this brilliant idea,

37:15

because pizza is one of those things.

37:18

that we really do get opinionated about

37:20

when it comes to toppings. And so

37:22

we thought, this is a question which

37:24

if people answer, they're going to reveal

37:26

something about the way they hold opinions

37:28

and the way they see other people.

37:30

But they're going to do it in

37:32

a way to where there's no room

37:34

to guess what we want to hear.

37:36

Yes, yeah, which that spirit of should,

37:39

you should do this or everyone should

37:41

behave this way. This is what should

37:43

go on a pizza. It's as you

37:45

said, it's an opinion, which brings me

37:47

to my pithy answer here, which is

37:49

every should is a new bar and

37:51

your ever expanding prison compound. It's not

37:53

just a prison cell anymore, because we

37:55

have so many shoulds. You should put

37:58

this on a pizza. You should work

38:00

first shift. You should wake up at.

38:02

5 a.m. You should eat these foods.

38:04

You should have three meals a day.

38:06

You should have one meal a day.

38:08

You should have six small meals a

38:10

day to stoke your metabolic fire. Whatever

38:12

your shoulds are, they become a way

38:14

to imprison ourselves. And also a way

38:17

to make us feel bad about ourselves

38:19

as well. We pick up everyone else's

38:21

shoulds. We invent our own shoulds. We

38:23

invent our own shoulds. We manipulate the

38:25

shoulds and change the shoulds. And then

38:27

we look around before we know it

38:29

and it's like, I've got all these

38:31

things I should be doing. I'm not doing

38:34

most of them. No wonder I feel

38:36

miserable because I've told myself there's a

38:38

story of I should be doing this.

38:40

And if I do everything I should

38:42

do, well, then I should be happy.

38:45

And of course, it never works because

38:47

there will always be more shoulds than

38:49

you can keep up with. Imagine sitting

38:51

around looking at everybody enjoying pizza and

38:53

enjoying pizza and you go, but I

38:56

don't even like pizza. But everyone else

38:58

has so much fun, I should

39:00

like it. And if that sounds silly

39:02

to you, substitute pizza for possessions. And

39:05

that's a game that we all

39:07

play with ourselves. Yeah, yeah. The renunciation

39:09

of a possession, you shouldn't want that,

39:11

you shouldn't have that, you shouldn't

39:13

make a certain amount of money, you

39:16

shouldn't make below a certain amount of

39:18

money. What happens here is we trap

39:20

ourselves, right? And we never even,

39:22

you said the why thing earlier, we

39:25

never stop to think about what is

39:27

the why behind that. Okay, you shouldn't

39:29

put anchovies on Donna pizza because she'll

39:32

die. Yeah. That makes a whole lot

39:34

of sense to me. There is a

39:36

definitive why behind that. But if it's,

39:39

you shouldn't put potatoes on a pizza,

39:41

well, I live by the law of

39:43

contrary public opinion. And so as soon

39:45

as someone tells me you shouldn't put

39:48

potatoes on a pizza, it's like, I

39:50

don't know. I kind of want to

39:52

try it because you said I shouldn't

39:55

do it. You know, if you, Robell

39:57

says if you want your kids to read

39:59

the Bible, from having it in the

40:01

house. And that's not a comment

40:03

about the Bible, that is a

40:05

comment about renunciation, about saying you're

40:07

not allowed to have this, do

40:09

this, think about it, and then

40:11

all of a sudden it's like,

40:13

oh, but now I'm obsessed with

40:15

it. We become obsessed with the

40:17

things that we're not allowed to

40:19

touch. The things that are off

40:21

limits are often the things that

40:23

define us. All right, that's the

40:25

end of page one. We still

40:27

have an entire switchboard of colors

40:29

to talk to. But first, real

40:32

quick for right here, right now,

40:34

here's one thing that's going on

40:36

in the life of the minimalist.

40:38

Now, I'm a little hesitant to

40:40

mention this. We're doing a retreat

40:42

next month. And it's only a

40:44

retreat next month. And it's only

40:46

30 people. It's called Simple Haven.

40:48

It's a three day minimalist retreat.

40:50

Me and Nikodimus will be there.

40:52

And we're reserving this weekend and

40:54

immediately. like 20 of the seats

40:56

filled up. And it's a small

40:58

venue. It's the Ohio Arts Center.

41:00

And so we can't just release

41:02

a bunch more tickets or anything.

41:04

So I'm letting you know now

41:06

publicly, you can go to the

41:08

minimalist.com, you click events there at

41:10

the top, and you'll see. Simple

41:12

Haven there. It's a three-day minimalist

41:14

retreat. We're spending two days in

41:16

Ohio, California at the Ohio Arts

41:18

Center. And the third day, it's

41:20

a Friday and Saturday, April 25th

41:22

and 26th, 2025. And then the

41:24

third day, we're doing a Sunday

41:26

symposium with a larger group there

41:28

in Santa Barbara. Now of course,

41:30

you can show up a little

41:32

bit early, enjoy Ohio. Malabam has

41:34

been up there. Savidya dragged him

41:36

up to Ohio recently. He loved

41:38

it. He said they have an

41:40

amazing skate park there too, which

41:42

you know, he's a skateboarder. So,

41:44

man, it's just a magical place.

41:46

You get to experience the sunshine,

41:48

the mountains, the ocean waves, the

41:50

palm trees, the orange trees, the

41:52

oak trees. The pink moment? Yes!

41:54

So at the end of the...

41:56

when the sun is setting the

41:58

mountains there turn pink and it

42:00

is amazing. We'll do some hiking

42:02

and things like that. You'll have

42:04

a lot plenty of opportunities to

42:06

spend some time in Ohai the

42:09

days before, days after if you

42:11

want to show up early. If

42:13

you get there a day before

42:15

there's the Thursday Farmers Market which

42:17

I brought Matt out to and

42:19

there's people juggling and there's kids

42:21

running around and there's just it's

42:23

a lot of fun. It's a

42:25

simple small. And this is a

42:27

three day retreat where you bring

42:29

your curiosity. So you bring your

42:31

questions, you bring problems you might

42:33

be trying to sort through some

42:35

challenges that you're having. And Nicodemus,

42:37

TK, and I are going to

42:39

work with you to simplify some

42:41

of those challenges, some of those

42:43

queries, some of those quandries, some

42:45

of those problems you might be

42:47

dealing with. What are you looking

42:49

forward to most, TK? The people,

42:51

man, being together. We are the

42:53

world. It's going to be a

42:55

lot of fun. Ohio Arts Center,

42:57

you can find the tickets right

42:59

now. 30 seats, actually there's less

43:01

than 10 seats available at this

43:03

point. So as of this recording,

43:05

there are fewer than 10 seats,

43:07

go to the minimalist.com, click on

43:09

events at the top, and we

43:11

will see you in Ohio next

43:13

month. Meliban, what else you got

43:15

for us? Here's a minimalist insight

43:17

from one of our listeners. Hey

43:19

minimalists, my name is Curran, I'm

43:21

from Kansas City, I've been a

43:23

long-time fan. I wanted to comment

43:25

on the woman who wrote in

43:27

about how to better have your

43:29

phone not be so distracting during

43:31

the day. One way that I

43:33

found, aside from silencing notifications, is

43:35

to go into the accessibility settings.

43:37

I specifically have iOS, but I'm

43:39

sure Android and Google phones have

43:41

other... capabilities, but I go into

43:43

my accessibility settings and go to

43:46

the display and the color scheme

43:48

and set the whole thing to

43:50

gray scale. I have found that

43:52

this limits the amount of vibrancy

43:54

that is on the screen, I'm

43:56

not as inclined to want to

43:58

watch videos or look at pictures

44:00

because they're just not as eye-grabbing

44:02

and they don't hold my attention

44:04

for as long. It also makes

44:06

things like shopping more difficult because

44:08

you can't see what things truly

44:10

look like and what the color

44:12

and what they'll be like in

44:14

real life and so it requires

44:16

me, it adds a forcing function

44:18

and a point of friction for

44:20

me to go to a computer

44:22

or go into the store to

44:24

see things in real life. So

44:26

I hope other people find value

44:28

in that. Thanks. current I love

44:30

the idea of making your phone

44:32

more boring to make it more

44:34

useful because the truth behind the

44:37

our technology is amazing but the

44:39

truth behind is that your technology

44:41

is useless if it's using you

44:43

and one of the ways that

44:45

it uses you is it makes

44:47

it becomes more enticing than the

44:49

things that are important to us

44:52

and then it feels urgent right

44:54

and so I love the spirit

44:56

of this this isn't a renunciation

44:58

of technology Although, I mean, I

45:00

find that appealing sometimes. I look

45:02

at the way the Amish live,

45:04

and are they renouncing technology? I

45:06

think that's up for debate. I

45:08

would argue that they're not, because

45:10

there's something super intentional about the

45:12

way that they use technology. In

45:14

fact, later on in this episode,

45:16

we have this Christopher Walken quote,

45:18

he talks about the technology he

45:20

doesn't live with, or he doesn't

45:23

use in his own life. And

45:25

there's no spirit of renunciation there.

45:27

It's that he... finds it more

45:29

appropriate to omit those things from his

45:31

life, the same way that I find

45:33

it more appropriate for me to not

45:35

have advertisements on this show. I find

45:37

it more appropriate for me to not

45:39

smoke cigarettes. I find it more appropriate

45:42

for me to not smoke cigarettes. I

45:44

find it more appropriate for me to

45:46

not eat pizza because of the cost

45:48

behind many of those things. I know

45:50

when we walked away from social media,

45:52

it wasn't about renouncing social media. I

45:54

think that is a rather immature way

45:56

to look a thing. renunciation is often

45:59

done out of And when we're just

46:01

simply dismissing something, we don't have a

46:03

good reason as to why we're dismissing

46:05

it. We just, we label it as

46:08

bad. And we're not sure why it's

46:10

bad. Then that's when we begin to

46:12

get defined. by it. So before we

46:15

wrap up this segment here, TK, any

46:17

words on that spirit of dismissal and,

46:19

ah, that's, you know, that sense that

46:22

I'm gonna renounce us just because I

46:24

don't want to deal with it. I'm

46:26

not mature enough to try to find

46:29

a way to incorporate this into my

46:31

life in a healthy way. It can

46:33

be a great starting point if you

46:36

can separate it from... the self-righteousness that

46:38

often accompanies it, right? And if you

46:40

can sort of be composed about it

46:43

and say, I'm not in a place

46:45

where I can handle having this around,

46:47

whether it be my phone or my

46:50

computer or my TV or cigarettes or

46:52

something like that, I just can't handle

46:54

having it around, I think that's self-honesty,

46:57

right? That's you saying I know what

46:59

my limitations are. And if you can

47:01

be composed about that and not overdo

47:04

it in terms of like, look at

47:06

those people over there doing it, look

47:08

at these ads over here everywhere, that's

47:10

not helping. You know, that just attaches

47:13

you to it all the more. And

47:15

so separate the preoccupation from it from

47:17

the prioritization of your freedom. That's what

47:20

I would say about it. Yeah, yeah,

47:22

and what you're talking about the limitations,

47:24

sometimes it's about us setting up our

47:27

own limitations. When I didn't have home

47:29

internet for, I think it was five

47:31

years, I wasn't renouncing the internet. It

47:34

was a particular boundary I set up

47:36

in my own life because I knew

47:38

that the pool of that was distracting

47:41

me from the things that were more

47:43

important to me. And I began to

47:45

understand what was important to me and

47:48

added some additional friction. And at some

47:50

point, because I had a family or

47:52

I got a family and then... they

47:55

wanted more access to the internet, I

47:57

had to find ways that worked better

47:59

for me within that new context. And

48:02

the same thing was true when I

48:04

didn't purchase things for a year. It

48:06

was about re-establishing some boundaries that worked

48:09

for me, as opposed to saying, oh,

48:11

buying stuff is bad. Or when we

48:13

left social media last year, social media

48:16

is. I don't think social media is

48:18

immoral, but I think that it can

48:20

get in the way. It can use

48:22

us in ways, and sometimes the best

48:25

boundary might mean to walk away from

48:27

it. all together. We'll talk about Chris

48:29

for walking here in a bit and

48:32

how he doesn't use social media, he

48:34

doesn't use the internet at home, he

48:36

doesn't use a bunch of other things.

48:39

For anyone else has a list or

48:41

tip or inside about this episode, just

48:43

like Karen, let us know. You can

48:46

send us a voice memo podcast at

48:48

the minimalist.com. We'd love to hear from

48:50

you. We'd love to feature your voice

48:53

on the show. Up next, page two

48:55

and page three, but first, let's take

48:57

a quick pandiculation break. We'll be right

49:00

back. All

49:02

right, that's the first 32% of

49:04

episode 483. We'll see you on

49:06

Patreon for the full maximal edition,

49:08

which includes answers to a bunch

49:10

more questions. Questions like, when is

49:13

it appropriate for someone to start

49:15

calling themselves a minimalist? And how

49:17

do the minimalist take criticism so

49:19

well? And how can I be

49:21

an informed citizen if I'm overwhelmed

49:24

and worried by the news media?

49:26

Plus we have a million more

49:28

questions and simple living segments over

49:30

on the minimalist private podcast on

49:32

Patreon. And that is our minimal

49:35

episode for today. Big thanks to

49:37

Earthing Studios for the recording space

49:39

on behalf of Ryan Nicodemus, T.K.

49:41

Coleman, Malabamma, Post Production Peter, Spire

49:43

Jeff, and Spire Dave, SavvyD on

49:46

the board and the rest of

49:48

our team. I'm Joshua Fields Milburn.

49:50

If you leave here with just

49:52

one message, let it be this.

49:54

Love people and use things. Here's

49:57

the opposite, never. works. Thanks for

49:59

listening y'all. We'll see you next

50:01

time. Peace. Every little

50:03

thing you think that

50:05

you need. Every little

50:08

thing you think that

50:10

you need. Every little

50:12

thing that's just feeding

50:14

your greed. Oh I

50:16

bet that you'll be

50:18

fine without it.