0:00

Hey folks, it's Quinn. Since we recorded

0:02

this conversation, we've renamed the podcast.

0:04

It used to be called Important

0:06

Not Important, which is what you'll

0:08

hear in the episode and is

0:11

still the name of the company. But now

0:13

the podcast is called The Most Important

0:16

Question. That is, what can I do?

0:18

It's the question we get the most

0:20

from all of you, and it turns

0:22

out it's the question I've really been

0:24

asking guests for almost 200 episodes

0:26

now. So here we are.

0:28

the most important question. Please

0:31

enjoy this old conversation. Thanks

0:33

for listening and thanks for

0:35

giving a shit. What's the

0:38

missing link in local journalism?

0:40

That's today's big question and

0:42

my guest is Lindsay Gilpin.

0:45

Lindsay is the senior manager

0:47

of Community Engagement at Grist.

0:50

Lindsay was the founder and

0:52

executive editor at Southerly, a

0:54

non-profit media organization that equipped

0:57

people who face environmental injustices

0:59

and are at most at

1:01

risk of climate change effects

1:04

with journalism and resources on

1:06

natural disasters, pollution, food, energy

1:09

and more. It was very groundbreaking

1:11

and now she's brought that. to

1:13

Grist. Lindsay was recently a John

1:16

S. Knight Community Impact Fellow at

1:18

Stanford University focusing on information access

1:20

in rural southern communities of color

1:23

where she is from based in

1:25

Louisville and Lindsay's work has appeared

1:28

in Harper's Vice, the Daily Beast,

1:30

City Lab, Undark, High Country News,

1:32

Washington Post, Hakai, The Atlantic,

1:34

Grist, Outside, Inside Climate News, you

1:37

name it, she's got the credentials. And

1:39

in an age of mass. Dis and

1:41

misinformation, it's more important

1:44

than ever that we

1:46

not only fund journalism

1:48

and obviously read it,

1:50

but local journalism and

1:52

journalists and publishers, editors,

1:55

and more that are

1:57

of the communities they are

1:59

based in. who have and

2:01

continue to

2:04

build intentionally

2:07

trust in an ongoing

2:10

two-way conversation

2:13

to help those people

2:16

get that information

2:19

to connect the

2:22

last mile and make

2:24

sure it goes back

2:26

and forth. incredible humans

2:28

like Lindsay. I take

2:30

a deep dive with

2:32

someone working on the

2:34

front lines of the

2:36

future to constructively build

2:38

a radically better today

2:40

and tomorrow. Our goal

2:42

as always is to help

2:45

you answer the question, what can

2:47

I do? Let's go talk

2:49

to Lindsay. Lindsay, welcome to the

2:51

show. Thank you for joining me.

2:53

Yeah, thanks for having me. For

2:55

sure, the last time I was in

2:57

Louisville was 18. 18. I

3:00

was 2009 for the derby. Yeah.

3:02

And we lost my

3:04

brother for 24 hours.

3:06

It was great. It was

3:08

great. It was great. Sounds

3:11

like a derby experience.

3:13

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My

3:15

uncle who loves us

3:18

very much was like,

3:20

it's fine. He'll find his

3:22

way home. Let's go. So

3:24

yeah, he's fine. He's fine.

3:27

He's fine. He's fine. tourism thing. So

3:29

that's the big thing now. Yeah, yeah,

3:31

yeah. People are on that. We're still

3:33

doing the colonial thing. We also have

3:35

better food than when I was growing

3:38

up here, but yeah, you know, you

3:40

lean on what got you there. I

3:42

get it. So Lindsay, I mentioned offline

3:44

a little bit before we dive into

3:46

this. A lot of folks that listen

3:48

to this. are already doing something incredible.

3:51

They could be a legislator or policy

3:53

maker of some sort or they could

3:55

be a third grade teacher or run

3:57

a college endowment. Who knows? But there

3:59

are always inspired by and look to

4:02

folks who are, as we describe it,

4:04

on the front lines of the future,

4:06

doing the thing. So I have a

4:09

two-part question for you. I guess it's

4:11

one question with two parts. Anyways, this

4:13

is going great. And it's basically, why

4:16

do you have to do this job?

4:18

And the first part is, why do

4:20

you in particular have to do this

4:23

job? Like of all the people in

4:25

the world, why does this have to

4:27

be you? And the second part is...

4:30

Why do you have to do this

4:32

specific work of everything you could have

4:34

done and could do? Why this? Let's

4:37

do this. Yeah, okay. All right, I'm

4:39

gonna answer it backwards because I think

4:41

it's easy. I think it's easier to

4:44

answer the second part first. So I

4:46

do community engagement at a journalism or

4:48

at a media organization that covers environmental

4:50

justice issues nationally. And I came at.

4:53

the community engagement, which I can talk

4:55

about is a very buzzy term. A

4:57

lot of your listeners have probably heard.

5:00

I came at that from journalism. I

5:02

was a reporter and an editor for

5:04

over a decade. You know, I did

5:06

the investigative work, focus on environmental issues

5:09

pretty much the whole time, but you

5:11

know, I did a lot of investigations.

5:13

I did long form journalism. You know,

5:15

I had my dream of like... when

5:18

I was younger and moving to New

5:20

York and breaking into the, you know,

5:22

the classic, what they tell you that

5:25

the only way you can succeed in

5:27

writing is go be a nobody in

5:29

New York for a while. Luckily, very

5:31

quickly, I was like, screw that. I

5:34

don't want to do that. But I've

5:36

done a lot of different types of

5:38

reporting and, you know, chasing the story

5:40

and trying to figure out how to

5:43

get journalism to people and amplify the

5:45

voices that are amplified enough in our

5:47

society and in our communities. And I

5:50

actually came at this particular... version of

5:52

journalism through starting my own magazine, which

5:54

I ran for five years. It was

5:56

called Southerly. I launched it right after

5:59

2016 election. I was out west. and

6:01

I was really frustrated with the way

6:03

the media was covering the South and

6:06

I moved home to Louisville and I

6:08

was like, all right, I'm just gonna

6:10

start freelancing on the side and seeing

6:12

if people would be interested in more

6:15

journalism about environmental justice in the South

6:17

and communities that are underrepresented and often

6:19

presented as a monolith in this region

6:21

and through that sort of being able

6:24

to manage my own publication. I really

6:26

wanted to make sure that the ethos

6:28

was always very authentic and trying to

6:31

make sure that the voices that are

6:33

often left out of the conversation are

6:35

able to be represented and people have

6:37

the opportunity to be part of the

6:40

journalism process. So we held a lot

6:42

of community events, panel discussions, listening, sessions,

6:44

like ways to get people involved in

6:46

journalism and understand what journalism is before.

6:49

the story ran before, you know, instead

6:51

of just coming into their community and

6:53

telling a story and leaving, we just

6:56

like really followed up a lot and

6:58

focused specifically on rural communities, low wealth

7:00

communities of color. And it was, you

7:02

know, it was a small scrappy thing

7:05

and I was running it mostly by

7:07

myself. I had some help sort of

7:09

over the years like contract workers and

7:11

people who really made sure I could

7:14

keep it going. But in the end,

7:16

I was like, this is exhausting. I

7:18

had two babies. So, you know, it's

7:21

just, it's a lot. But through that

7:23

work, I became more and more dissolutions

7:25

with the way journalism in general works.

7:27

Often, you know, a national magazine or

7:30

newspaper goes into a place, writes a

7:32

story, leaves, already has it written in

7:34

their head, what's gonna be the story.

7:37

This is very much the case in

7:39

environmental crises after hurricanes, like we have

7:41

just seen, and. after chemical spills or

7:43

oil spills or whatever it may be,

7:46

and particularly around climate change issues, like

7:48

very much focuses on whether or not

7:50

people believe in climate change rather than

7:52

like, how do we get people engaged

7:55

on that issue and meet them where

7:57

they're at? And this community engagement sort

7:59

of like sector of journalism that was

8:02

kind of becoming more popular over the

8:04

last few years is like, how do

8:06

we meet people where they're at? How

8:08

do we make sure that the information

8:11

gets to them in a way that

8:13

makes the most sense, whether that's print

8:15

or audio or video or canvassing door

8:17

to door or equipping them to do

8:20

that journalism themselves? And so that is

8:22

the part that I fell in love

8:24

with. And that is really... when I

8:27

kind of had this moment, this epiphany,

8:29

like five years into this, where I

8:31

was like, oh, I don't want to

8:33

just write anymore. Like, I want to

8:36

make sure that the stuff that I'm

8:38

doing and the stuff that other journalists

8:40

are doing, like the really good work,

8:42

is actually. being seen by the people

8:45

who need to see it, right? And

8:47

that to me is much more meaningful

8:49

and fulfilling than anything I have done

8:52

before, which, you know, was not something

8:54

I thought 10 years ago, but I

8:56

really love it. So a lot of

8:58

my work now and the thing that

9:01

I love most about it is that

9:03

it's very slow going and one on

9:05

one and a lot of the impact

9:07

is very anecdotal. And it's just like,

9:10

how do we engage people like one-on-one

9:12

or in a room full of their

9:14

neighbors and community members and friends and

9:17

talk about the issues that are most

9:19

important to them. And in doing that,

9:21

figure out where they need information, what

9:23

information they need, what misinformation they have

9:26

in their lives that we can maybe

9:28

teach them how to correct or identify.

9:30

And I think that I am not

9:33

the only person that does this work.

9:35

I have learned so much from people

9:37

all over the country in journalism and

9:39

outside of journalism. Organizers do this all

9:42

the time, right? This is like community

9:44

organizing, like you host a event and

9:46

yeah, get people talking about an issue

9:48

that's important to them and then you

9:51

try to figure out how to mobilize

9:53

them in some way around it. And

9:55

this is very similar in that mobilizing

9:58

them around the importance of information access

10:00

and journalism, as an industry has made

10:02

very inaccessible. I'm definitely not the, you

10:04

know, like the only person for this

10:07

job. I've learned so much about it

10:09

through other, like, mostly hyper-local places. Mostly

10:11

people of color doing this work who

10:13

have been doing this work for a

10:16

long time. Some ones I can name

10:18

that maybe like listeners would know, Outlier

10:20

Media in Detroit does text-based, SMS-based reporting,

10:23

Connect to Arizona is a Spanish language

10:25

outlet in Phoenix and across the border

10:27

that does what's at messaging messaging. There's

10:29

been... documenters which trains people to go

10:32

to city meetings and document what they

10:34

see and take notes and publish them.

10:36

There's just so many amazing versions of

10:38

journalism and getting information out that like

10:41

I have become more and more passionate

10:43

about over the last few years. I

10:45

love it. That was incredible. We're done.

10:48

That was amazing. I mean following Grist

10:50

for so long and then following your

10:52

jump into this truly with two feet

10:54

and going into it. Do you have

10:57

an organizing background of any sort or

10:59

was it just like, hold on, I

11:01

don't want to just write it and

11:04

move on to the next thing. You

11:06

know, no, I don't. I have always

11:08

been very much a journalist. I decided

11:10

I wanted to be a journalist and

11:13

I was like 11 years old and

11:15

never looked that other way even when

11:17

everyone was like, you're not going to

11:19

make any money. You're not going to

11:22

make any money. You better. The part

11:24

that sort of separates it from organizing

11:26

I think is that there's so many

11:29

principles from it that I find through

11:31

organizing that are very useful. So again,

11:33

the way we reach people, convening people,

11:35

kind of giving people agency over their

11:38

stories and their experiences, which I don't

11:40

think journalism often does, but it's also

11:42

keeping that line, which I think where

11:44

the journalism background is really useful is

11:47

there is a line, right, that we

11:49

can't cross like for conflict of interest

11:51

or making sure that people trust that

11:54

information and know where it's coming from,

11:56

which is obviously very difficult in today's

11:58

historically has been so obsessed with this

12:00

idea that we have to be objective,

12:03

which is what the white male editors

12:05

decided, you know, decades and decades ago.

12:07

Still deciding. Right, still deciding. And a

12:09

lot of news outlets still are like,

12:12

you can't have a background in something

12:14

that you're reporting on or you're too

12:16

close to the subject matter. And to

12:19

me and to a lot of people

12:21

that I have learned from that. is

12:23

a benefit, right? Especially in organizing, if

12:25

you are organizing around reproductive freedom and

12:28

you have dealt with some sort of

12:30

reproductive injustice, whether that's abortion or teen

12:32

pregnancy or whatever it might be, like

12:35

that is an asset, you know that

12:37

issue and you can come to it

12:39

in a more educated way. And I

12:41

think the same is with journalism. If

12:44

you are a Spanish speaker and have

12:46

dealt with immigration issues and you are

12:48

a first generation immigrant, like... That is

12:50

an asset if you're trying to report

12:53

on those communities. Same with people who

12:55

are enduring, you know, the effects of

12:57

climate change, who are seeing it like

13:00

on the coasts or in areas that

13:02

aren't really getting the resources they need

13:04

to adapt or mitigate climate change effects.

13:06

Like they know what's happening and often

13:09

have ideas. that are more creative or

13:11

more realistic than like the abstract things

13:13

that I think like the progressive movement

13:15

often comes up with. We should all

13:18

do this and it's like, well, why

13:20

don't you ask people on the ground?

13:22

Yeah, that's great. Let's ask them what

13:25

they need. Yeah, that's great. Yeah, let's

13:27

ask them what they need. Yeah, yeah.

13:29

So journalism doesn't often do that because

13:31

it's sort of seen as like we're

13:34

asking people like a bunch of stuff

13:36

and be like, figure it out, best

13:38

of luck, you know, and that's not

13:40

what we're here for. I think also,

13:43

and I get it, I understand in

13:45

certain cases, in some cases, depending on

13:47

the topic, in most cases, the need

13:50

for being objective in some way, obviously.

13:52

that can lean way too far in

13:54

the other direction. You can end up

13:56

being the mouthpiece for something that doesn't

13:59

need it or hurts other folks. But

14:01

at the same time, I kind of

14:03

come back to Ed yong in two

14:06

places here, who was at the Atlantic

14:08

and did all the incredible work for

14:10

years, and wonderful author. And he just

14:12

gave a talk recently at the last

14:15

XO-X-O conference about, he was like, hey,

14:17

this is how I realized I needed

14:19

to do this, and this is how

14:21

it broke me, because I needed to

14:24

get too close. That was really hard.

14:26

It takes it out here. And he

14:28

said at the beginning of the pandemic,

14:31

and I did a poor man's version

14:33

of this, that the pandemic exposed, it

14:35

was like a flood exposing the cracks

14:37

in our sidewalk, right? And my version

14:40

was it's pop quiz on, hey, here's

14:42

all the economic and societal choices you

14:44

made over the past 100 years. Let's

14:46

see how they go. Not great. But

14:49

journalism was the same way, which was,

14:51

and again, we're seeing this with, you

14:53

know, folks. talking about the poor job

14:56

the New York Times is doing when

14:58

they refuse to say. Certain words, the

15:00

receipts are in a little bit on

15:02

how that version of journalism has gone,

15:05

which is being afraid to get too

15:07

close, being afraid, or refusing to hire

15:09

someone from those communities, if not talk

15:11

to them, follow up with them. And

15:14

then what I love about your work

15:16

is making sure it gets back to

15:18

them. Not just write a story and

15:21

move on and maybe they never see

15:23

it. You know, if you're writing about

15:25

farm workers, which is something I've done,

15:27

but in much less the way than

15:30

you have, how do you then get

15:32

that to them? What does that mean

15:34

philosophically? What does that mean strategically? What

15:37

does that mean strategically? What does that

15:39

mean for grists budgets? Who did they

15:41

need to hire? Who's the best person

15:43

for that? Of course, completely forget he's

15:46

a pastor and he works on climate

15:48

change from within the evangelical church. And

15:50

when I asked him, hey, what can

15:52

we do? do to help, he said,

15:55

just give us money to do our

15:57

jobs because the messenger actually really matters

15:59

a lot here. And he's like, you're

16:02

not the guy. I'm the guy. So

16:04

just support us and let us do

16:06

it. But know that the messenger really

16:08

matters and it really does. And that's

16:11

why we're such big fans here of

16:13

your work and the 19th and Capital

16:15

B and all those folks that are

16:17

like, we are of this community too.

16:20

It's often not just reporting on something

16:22

and moving along. It's updates on how

16:24

this thing is going on how this

16:27

thing is going. gives people perspective and

16:29

helps them make different decisions and get

16:31

involved in other ways like you said

16:33

recording city council meetings or school board

16:36

meetings or whatever it might be or

16:38

even pamphlets so yeah I get it

16:40

I get it I think there's never

16:42

been a better time for this version

16:45

of it clearly we needed the proverbial

16:47

we and lots of specific communities needed

16:49

I want to go back one second

16:52

though you mentioned you want to be

16:54

a journalist since you were 11 Was

16:56

there something specific that prompted that? Yeah,

16:58

I actually wrote a memoir, an essay

17:01

in seventh grade, sixth grade, about my

17:03

grandmother who I'd never met and this

17:05

locket that my mom had with her

17:07

picture in it, which interestingly enough my

17:10

daughter is named after that grandmother, but

17:12

I wrote it and it appeared in

17:14

the local newspaper, the courier journal, in

17:17

Louisville. I did not know at the

17:19

time it was in like the kids

17:21

section. I just thought it was like.

17:23

Whatever, it counts. Yeah, but it didn't

17:26

matter. It didn't matter. It said kids

17:28

ink on it, you know. But it

17:30

was printed and I saw my byline

17:33

and I was like, oh, that is

17:35

cool. So I think it originally started,

17:37

I want to see my name in

17:39

lights right here, you know, but then

17:42

it sort of morphed into, oh, journalism

17:44

is such an incredible tool to get

17:46

like accurate, important information out to the

17:48

masses in a way that isn't, you

17:51

know. that's so different from entertainment or

17:53

other media. So yeah, I just kept

17:55

on going from there. I love it.

17:58

I'm going to ask you a question.

18:00

Have you, which I know is why

18:02

you're here, a memorial. Have you ever

18:04

heard of a young now young woman

18:07

named Hildee Lissiak? Yeah. She was a

18:09

young reporter, very similar. She was about

18:11

eight years old. Her dad was an

18:13

investigative journalist in sort of New York

18:16

area and used to take her along

18:18

to some, you know, conversations and interviews

18:20

that the children don't normally attend. Some

18:23

hard hitting stuff. And eventually it broke

18:25

him a little bit and he said,

18:27

well, we're going to move back to

18:29

our small town and I'm going to

18:32

write a book. And she was like,

18:34

that's great for you, but I'm a

18:36

journalist now. I can't just drop this

18:38

willy-nilly. This is my calling. And they

18:41

moved to this small town and she

18:43

almost immediately scooped the local paper on

18:45

a murder and published it in her

18:48

blog. And the response from the community

18:50

was not great. Hey, how dare you

18:52

come in here, little girl, you know,

18:54

you know, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc,

18:57

etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc,

18:59

etc, etc, etc. Correct. She made the

19:01

news. She ends up getting a book

19:04

deal. Hillary Clinton writes to her and

19:06

says, keep doing what you're doing, all

19:08

this stuff. I tell you this story

19:10

because wife made a TV show about

19:13

her life a couple years ago called

19:15

Home Before Dark. It was on Apple

19:17

TV. Well, maybe that's right. I recognize

19:19

that. That's so cool. It was, you

19:22

know, a similar vibe of people being

19:24

like. One, you shouldn't do this for

19:26

a thousand reasons, like, there's no 401k

19:29

involved, but two, like, you're just a

19:31

little girl, like, what kind of stories

19:33

do you tell? Whether it's in Kids

19:35

Inc. or your adorable little blog, I

19:38

want to be like, there's so many

19:40

stories to tell. Yeah. I empathize with

19:42

it. That was a big part of

19:44

our life for quite a while. That's

19:47

really interesting. Yeah, and I think that

19:49

one of the things I think is

19:51

really important about. this sort of this

19:54

process in journalism is Gris has had

19:56

25 years of this incredible environmental journalism

19:58

and still the you know the reason

20:00

they brought me on even and this

20:03

being sort of like late in the

20:05

game in terms of how long they've

20:07

been around, but you know, it's still

20:09

being so important is that that process

20:12

that they were reporting with was still

20:14

pretty linear. It was like, okay, we

20:16

find the story, we give it to

20:19

the people who read us, and then

20:21

after that, they do with it. what

20:23

they will. And you know they have

20:25

always done incredible and more and more

20:28

so over the years have really done

20:30

some amazing more justice focused journalism reaching

20:32

people through different events and things like

20:35

that but one of the reasons they

20:37

brought me on was like all right

20:39

how can we take that a step

20:41

farther? And you know they oftentimes in

20:44

a lot of newsrooms do this and

20:46

Gris has been doing an amazing job

20:48

as partnering with local news outlets like

20:50

local radio stations or local nonprofit news

20:53

that where we share a reporter and

20:55

we get to get those stories out

20:57

both, you know, in Western North Carolina,

21:00

Blue Ridge Public Radio is one of

21:02

our partners, and also in Grissons, show

21:04

people in California or New York, you

21:06

know, what is happening from someone who

21:09

is on the ground and often have

21:11

those in two different media, right, audio

21:13

and print. And I like to, you

21:15

know, you just told me reminds me

21:18

of kind of taking it a step

21:20

even further, which is equipping people with

21:22

the means to do journalism themselves. And

21:25

so that's sort of like the next

21:27

phase of this work. And I've already

21:29

done this a couple of times, both

21:31

at Griston, when I was running southerly,

21:34

is, you know, having a training program

21:36

to teach people how to identify misinformation,

21:38

what the ethics are of journalism, how

21:40

to write and how to take photos,

21:43

and what's like to be edited. when

21:45

they do post something, even if it's

21:47

just posting something online or hosting a

21:50

YouTube show, they have in the back

21:52

of their minds, like they don't have

21:54

to necessarily be a journalist or call

21:56

themselves a journalist, right, or be you

21:59

pitching to the local newspaper, but doing

22:01

journalism in the way of making sure

22:03

they're getting accurate information out to people

22:06

is really important and a lot of

22:08

people are doing that anyway, or if

22:10

they write an... off-ed for their local

22:12

newspaper. Now they have some stuff that

22:15

they know how to file a public

22:17

records request for interview and that I

22:19

think is the most amazing ultimate goal

22:21

of this work is we can't with

22:24

the system that we have in journalism

22:26

solve all of the problems that misinformation

22:28

has caused right? Like we can't be

22:31

in every single tiny rural community and

22:33

like address every single environmental issue all

22:35

at once. what better way to try

22:37

to do that right than to... teach

22:40

people how to do that and learn

22:42

from them in the process and then

22:44

they can go to their communities and

22:46

say oh hey I went to my

22:49

church last Sunday and I taught everybody

22:51

like how to fact check or how

22:53

people say that right oh and then

22:56

I went and I testified in the

22:58

local like public service commission hearing because

23:00

I knew that they needed somebody to

23:02

talk about it from this community or

23:05

whatever it might be and and I

23:07

think that is a really amazing way

23:09

to give people like agency over their

23:11

stories. to them. And they might not

23:14

talk about it in the same way

23:16

that we do at a national level

23:18

or like politicians do, but people know

23:21

way more than me, often, especially journalists,

23:23

often give them credit for. And I

23:25

think that's a super, it's just a

23:27

really beautiful way to allow people to,

23:30

you know, share their own stories and

23:32

be part of the process. Of course,

23:34

because you can't teach the intimacy they

23:36

already have with the subject matter, however

23:39

hyper. local about one elementary school or

23:41

school board or church or town or

23:43

whatever it might be and you can't

23:46

teach the Curiosity, right? All you can

23:48

do is help foster it by giving

23:50

them these proven tools of the trade

23:52

that frankly can be extended further than

23:55

we've you really used them in a

23:57

long time. Take a step. is to

23:59

not actually do this job. Stick with

24:02

me. Sometimes... you get a sign off.

24:04

You know what I mean? When I'm

24:06

forcing myself to not think about climate

24:08

change or malaria, I'm usually cooking, eating,

24:11

downloading apps, listening to music, or reading

24:13

Dragon Smut. And every month I share

24:15

my favorite updates on these in a

24:17

members-only newsletter called Not Important. If you

24:20

want to receive it, head to Important

24:22

Not Important.com/upgrade or just click the link

24:24

in your show notes to start your

24:27

free 30-day membership trial. forward

24:36

into sort of working our way back

24:38

forwards from the farm worker pamphlets you

24:40

all made. Chicken and egg. Did you

24:43

come to them and say, hey listen,

24:45

I think you could do more of

24:47

this and I think I'm the person

24:49

to do it? Or did they come

24:51

to that first and go hunting for

24:53

someone like you? And then I would

24:55

love to get into the sort of

24:57

working our way back forwards from the

24:59

farm worker pamphlets you all made, at

25:01

least. What goes into the discussions and

25:03

resources and budget meetings to make something

25:06

like this happen? So how did this

25:08

start? Yeah, so I knew the folks

25:10

at Grist for a while since I

25:12

wrote for them a lot when I

25:14

was a reporter and when I was

25:16

ending southerly. I was like, I want

25:18

to do this work still, and it

25:20

would be great to do it at

25:22

a place that has more resources than

25:24

my tiny little publication. And so I

25:27

approached a few people there and talked

25:29

to them about sort of the goals

25:31

that Grist had. And as I mentioned,

25:33

they have a lot of these local

25:35

news partnerships around the country. And so

25:37

a big goal for them was trying

25:39

to kind of connect the national media

25:41

and a local media and start like.

25:43

meeting people more, doing more of the

25:45

like pamphlets or flyers or going to

25:47

rural places that maybe don't have access

25:50

to grist.org all the time, right? Or

25:52

don't know about it because of their

25:54

political meanings. or whatever it may be.

25:56

So they also wanted to kind of

25:58

move in the direction that I think

26:00

a lot of journalism outlets are moving

26:02

into, which is how do we engage

26:04

people more authentically than just storytelling. And

26:06

so that's sort of how that came

26:08

about. And I've worked on a few

26:11

projects, since I've. been here. One of

26:13

them was like a nine month long

26:15

project in Georgia, which was on. So

26:17

there's a lot of misinformation and lack

26:19

of information around just energy policy and

26:21

regulation in the state of Georgia. And

26:23

so I kind of did this with

26:25

our radio partner in Atlanta, W. A

26:27

kind of a reporting on the Public

26:29

Service Commission which regulates Georgia Power. You

26:31

know, I held a few listening sessions

26:34

to meet people in their communities and

26:36

talk about what they wanted to read

26:38

more of, what stories they thought were

26:40

missing, and then use that information to

26:42

assign those stories. So our reporter and

26:44

a freelancer got to do those stories,

26:46

like answer those questions that people had.

26:48

I also held one of the training

26:50

programs I was talking about. That's what

26:52

we did that in Georgia. We had

26:54

four people go through this training for

26:57

six weeks. And then they worked on

26:59

a project around in. information sharing in

27:01

their communities around energy and that is

27:03

sort of one bucket like these long

27:05

form projects where I can come in

27:07

way before any of the like stories

27:09

are assigned or the reporters actually go

27:11

out to report on something and at

27:13

the beginning we can say like what

27:15

is the main thing we're trying to

27:18

find out here and for this one

27:20

it was all right what do people

27:22

know about this regulatory agency and what

27:24

do they want to know, and what

27:26

would help them make better decisions when

27:28

they vote, or more informed decisions when

27:30

they vote. And so that is sort

27:32

of like where we came up with

27:34

this idea of like, let's go in

27:36

a few different communities. One was all

27:38

Spanish speaking, so we held it in

27:41

Spanish, had an interpreter there. The other

27:43

ones were in specific neighborhoods in Atlanta

27:45

and in Macon, and then we like,

27:47

from there, that's when the storytelling process,

27:49

you know, continued was we were like,

27:51

all right, here's the things that. answer

27:53

their questions. Let's work on this for

27:55

months, had a newsletter that we kept

27:57

sending out, that sort of thing. And

27:59

then the other sort of bucket of

28:01

work that I've been doing is this

28:04

more responsive type of journalism, right? Like,

28:06

Chris is always going to have reporters

28:08

who are reporting on like a disaster

28:10

that happens, like the two hurricanes that

28:12

we just saw in the South or,

28:14

you know, some sort of environmental catastrophe

28:16

or just general issues like public health

28:18

issues that are happening all the time.

28:20

And one big thing I'm trying to

28:22

do is say all We know that

28:25

reporting is going to happen. So like,

28:27

how can I help the organization build

28:29

into its process of like, all right,

28:31

where do we start asking a question

28:33

of like, how do we get this

28:35

information out to everyone, not just like

28:37

publishing it online? So with the farm

28:39

worker piece, what happened was our reporter

28:41

Ayurela Hornmiller, who's in Florida, was doing

28:43

a big story on the sort of

28:45

movement to try to get more food

28:48

and information about food and disaster issues

28:50

to farm workers in Florida because there

28:52

was this huge gap and the work

28:54

that farm worker advocacy organizations were doing

28:56

to meet them and make sure that

28:58

they were getting fed, especially in times

29:00

of disaster and hurricanes. And so she

29:02

was doing that and then she had

29:04

another story that was about a report.

29:06

about these information gaps around disaster issues,

29:09

emergency shelters, things like the like farm

29:11

workers weren't getting, either because it wasn't

29:13

in Spanish, ever from the city or

29:15

the county, or just because that information

29:17

just was not accessible. And so once

29:19

we started talking, I was like, oh,

29:21

well, let's figure out, A, we need

29:23

to translate these stories, because it was

29:25

just going to be in English with

29:27

an English. language outlet that was like

29:29

a partner that was co-publishing the story.

29:32

Spanish speakers don't come to Gris to

29:34

read something. So like, where can we

29:36

get this published? Let's translate it and

29:38

get it published somewhere else. And it

29:40

ended up getting published in a Spanish

29:42

language outlet. And then from there, I

29:44

had two Zoom conversations, one in English

29:46

with some farm worker advocacy orgs in

29:48

Florida. And I asked them like, all

29:50

right. What are the biggest issues? Because

29:52

this story is about sort of like

29:55

the plight, right. the gaps that farm

29:57

workers face in accessing this information, but

29:59

they don't necessarily need to read that.

30:01

They need like the actual information, right?

30:03

They're well aware of the gaps. Yeah,

30:05

right. Exactly. We don't need a pamphlet

30:07

about that. So what happened was the

30:09

farm worker organization were like, here are

30:11

the things that people want to know.

30:13

What are my rights? What happens if

30:16

I get asked, I get an ID,

30:18

if I go to a FEMA recovery

30:20

center after a hurricane? Where do I

30:22

get food? How do I get disaster

30:24

snap? Which is a thing that comes

30:26

up after disasters like what if I'm

30:28

undocumented? What are my options if I

30:30

can apply for federal food programs? Those

30:32

sorts of questions. Those sorts of questions.

30:34

with a few folks that are community

30:36

health workers in Florida, and that was

30:39

in Spanish, and so there was an

30:41

interpreter, and I wasn't really part of

30:43

the conversation. I was just kind of

30:45

there to kind of guide it. We

30:47

figured out, all right, here's what we

30:49

should put in this brochure, and it

30:51

was a lot of, like I said,

30:53

that information, and links to sites that

30:55

they needed to go to, information about

30:57

like organizations where they could get food,

30:59

that sort of thing. And then I

31:02

had the people I spoke to look

31:04

at. and say, hey, is this what

31:06

you all think people need? Are there

31:08

any gaps? Can you make sure it

31:10

aligns with like the language that you're

31:12

using to describe these things? And just

31:14

like the values that you all are

31:16

trying to share with folks on the

31:18

ground. Because I don't want to do

31:20

something that's totally at odds with what

31:23

they're trying to do. And we're just

31:25

providing information. And so what they did

31:27

was I printed this out and then

31:29

mailed. like 1600 copies to several different

31:31

locations of their organizations and they took

31:33

it to workshops and took it out

31:35

into the fields to farm workers and

31:37

hopefully that information will become useful like

31:39

there's a QR code that they could

31:41

go to the Spanish language version online

31:43

and once we did it in Spanish

31:46

one of the groups was like hey

31:48

we have a lot of folks that

31:50

speak Haitian Creel and that was a

31:52

really amazing opportunity for me because I

31:54

had never done this sort of work

31:56

in any language other than Spanish and

31:58

so being able to you know I

32:00

had to track down someone who could

32:02

translate into Haitian grill and they did

32:04

that and we got both the digital

32:07

and the the print version done and

32:09

so now they have that in two

32:11

languages like two most spoken languages for

32:13

the workers and again like that impact

32:15

is so hard to track because you're

32:17

like we know how many we sent

32:19

out sure but hopefully it's in the

32:21

hands of people who are like especially

32:23

after Milton hit and after Helene hit,

32:25

that, you know, if they do go

32:27

to an emergency shelter, if they do

32:30

go to try to find food, like,

32:32

at least they know the questions to

32:34

ask or, like, things to look out

32:36

for. And I didn't really realize it

32:38

would be so timely because, you know,

32:40

it happened, like, a month before those

32:42

storms hit, but it's that kind of,

32:44

like, responsive work. And once you have

32:46

a template for that. then you can

32:48

use that in other communities and other

32:50

populations and get it translated in other

32:53

languages and, you know, use it in

32:55

North Carolina instead of Florida because there

32:57

are farm workers there too. So I

32:59

think that is the most amazing part

33:01

of something like that is like you

33:03

have it ready before a crisis happens

33:05

and then you can respond even quicker

33:07

next time. So, I mean, really, it's

33:09

so admirable. I mean, you guys really

33:11

took it from getting it to these

33:14

particular organizations and farms to translating it

33:16

not just into Spanish. which is obviously

33:18

the right thing to do, but also

33:20

Haitian Creole. You're listening to the community,

33:22

taking it, doing the work, doing it

33:24

again, getting it back out there, hoping

33:26

it's correct. There has to be a

33:28

little trust that, okay, hopefully this changes

33:30

a few lives, right, helps folks, if

33:32

this happens, how does GRIST measure the

33:34

return on investment for your time in

33:37

these materials and all this travel and

33:39

work in contractors you're hiring to translate

33:41

things? How does that factor? And again,

33:43

I'm coming out from the perspective of,

33:45

again, someone like the 19th or capital

33:47

B, which are, you know, semi-well funded,

33:49

but so many other amazing independent organizations,

33:51

independent reporters who are trying to do

33:53

a version of what you did with

33:55

Southerly, whatever it might be. How do

33:57

you not justify it? I mean, morally

34:00

you can obviously... to fight its incredible

34:02

work, but budgets are budgets and journalism

34:04

is in a tough spot, even for

34:06

someone like Grist. How does that part

34:08

work? Yeah, it's a really good question

34:10

because I think that, you know, when

34:12

I was renting Southerly, I think the

34:14

hardest thing about... Like when you pitch

34:16

this idea, especially to funders or just

34:18

to anyone, they're like, yeah, that's amazing.

34:21

Do it. That's incredible. You should meet

34:23

people where they're at. You should be

34:25

able to print stuff and hand it

34:27

out. And then when you talk about

34:29

how long it takes and how many

34:31

resources it takes just to, you know,

34:33

not just the money to like print

34:35

something, right? But it's... also the time

34:37

and energy to, you know, I'm doing

34:39

a lot of the logistics and communicating

34:41

whether we're hosting an event or putting

34:44

together designing a pamphlet, right? Like our

34:46

design team is way booked up. They

34:48

can't design this pamphlet. So they had

34:50

to kind of teach me how to

34:52

decide it on my own and then

34:54

I could do it or even just,

34:56

you know, the designing a website. the

34:58

back end of that making sure that

35:00

like we did a plain text version

35:02

of a website and a fancy version

35:05

like those sorts of things that take

35:07

time and energy I saw the plain

35:09

text version started interrupt and I thought

35:11

something was wrong with my browser and

35:13

they refreshed it and I was like

35:15

oh this is fucking genius it's like

35:17

the SMS stuff where you're just like

35:19

get rid of all the other shit

35:21

it doesn't have yeah yeah I saw

35:23

another one of our partners but Blue

35:25

Public Radio Public Radio did that after

35:28

Helene and I was like That's and

35:30

so I made sure that we could

35:32

do it and got it. Yeah, it's

35:34

so it's du, right? But it's just

35:36

those things you don't think about. And

35:38

so again, like when you're pitching it

35:40

to funders, it sounds, I think that

35:42

it's very buzzy, community engagement is very

35:44

buzzy, is very buzzy, community engagement is

35:46

very buzzy thing in journalism right now,

35:48

and so everyone wants to do it.

35:51

Like I need reporters to help, like

35:53

I need reporters to help me get

35:55

the information. doing that. But having a

35:57

reporter on board to do some of

35:59

that back-end work and do the reporting

36:01

and help me fact check it, like

36:03

that's so helpful. and critical and amazing

36:05

because Gris has you know people who

36:07

want to do this work and really

36:09

believe in this work and so that

36:12

has been really important when I came

36:14

on to the whole of 2024 you

36:16

know I had just come on so

36:18

I didn't have a budget so I

36:20

was over here like hey can I

36:22

have a thousand dollars to print this

36:24

or to run the products you know

36:26

that sort of thing and so luckily

36:28

for the next year I have a

36:30

lot more money to be able to

36:32

say, all right, here's a budget for

36:35

printing, here's a budget for like events

36:37

and things, and here is maybe we

36:39

want to do a fellowship again. Because

36:41

you know, the fellowship that we ran

36:43

that was six weeks long, I paid

36:45

everyone a few thousand bucks, and because

36:47

they were using their time, and when

36:49

we held listening session, I paid people

36:51

to be there to participate, and they

36:53

weren't use the sources ever again or

36:55

anything like that, but I feel it's

36:58

really important to pay people for their

37:00

time. not just at risk, but in

37:02

general and journalism as we kind of

37:04

just expect people to give us their

37:06

time. And obviously there's a lot and

37:08

we can't quote them as sources after

37:10

we pay them. That is not how

37:12

this works. But if we want to

37:14

people to do the work, particularly like

37:16

low income people of color, people of

37:19

color, like people in rural areas where

37:21

we go into their community and we're

37:23

like, hey, help us figure out how

37:25

to do our work better. makes it

37:27

blurry with the ethics of what you

37:29

know how a lot of journalism journalists

37:31

think that like it should go like

37:33

no they should just give it to

37:35

us and so that I think is

37:37

the hardest cell I often I talked

37:39

to the funding team the development team

37:42

and grist a decent amount and I

37:44

think that one of the really amazing

37:46

things is like community engagement and like

37:48

the work that I'm doing is sort

37:50

of this bridge between the audience side

37:52

and the editorial side of newsrooms where

37:54

Oftentimes they're very distant. You know, it's

37:56

okay, we're putting our stuff out in

37:58

social media, we're like communicating with the

38:00

audience in that way, and then we're

38:03

like deciding all our editorial goals over

38:05

here. And I think this is a

38:07

way to bridge those two and say,

38:09

all right, how do we ask people?

38:11

what they want or need and then

38:13

decide our editorial goals or rather than

38:15

making sure the editorial process like always

38:17

informs what we're doing for our audience.

38:19

And so I think that is a

38:21

really hopefully better way to fundraise around

38:23

that. And I hope that I see

38:26

a lot of other newsrooms doing that

38:28

too, but but it is. for this

38:30

Helene thing, we, you know, I got

38:32

a thousand bucks to, like, print out

38:34

some stuff, flyers on, like, how to

38:36

access FEMA Aid, and then we had

38:38

a QR code that went to that

38:40

plain text site. And then I got

38:42

some assistance through another organization where we

38:44

got the flyer actually printed in Alt

38:46

Weekly Mountain Express, and they printed it

38:49

in their addition this week, and it's

38:51

going out to 20,000 people in five

38:53

counties. And so it's like, how can

38:55

we work together? with other newsrooms because

38:57

everyone is so strapped to make sure

38:59

we get those resources because everyone has

39:01

you know something to give in that

39:03

way whether it's time or energy or

39:05

money and so unfortunately and fortunately that's

39:07

like the position we're in you know

39:10

I mean it's amazing but it's it

39:12

sucks I wish we weren't in that.

39:14

You hope that Grist is making enough

39:16

money elsewhere that is you build these

39:18

playbooks for and I kind of thought

39:20

about how you all are doing you

39:22

know, what we're all doing, which is

39:24

adaptation and mitigation at the same time.

39:26

You know, hey, here's how to access

39:28

FEMA on a plain text site or

39:30

by SMS when you're already affected because

39:33

you're a farm worker with no leave

39:35

or heat protections. But at the same

39:37

time, you're doing things like, hey, here's

39:39

how a public utility commission works and

39:41

in particular, one in Georgia can affect

39:43

that. so that hopefully we can start

39:45

to tame this whole thing a little

39:47

bit. You wish you didn't have to,

39:49

but at the same time, like you

39:51

said, there's partners out there that can

39:53

actually rely on the trust that they've

39:56

built with their communities, like these alt-weeklies

39:58

or Blue Ridge Public Radio, who say,

40:00

like, hey, we've already got this audience

40:02

of people who are really engaged and

40:04

trust us. We're going to trust you

40:06

to do something kind of from the

40:08

outside that you think is going to...

40:10

help them, but like, you gotta perform,

40:12

you gotta show up and have these

40:14

conversations, you gotta buy the donuts, you

40:17

can't pay people specifically for one thing,

40:19

but you can pay them for this,

40:21

and hopefully you can train more people.

40:23

It's an effort, and I do hope

40:25

that grists funders and all these other

40:27

places are looking at it and going,

40:29

yes, it needs to have a budget.

40:31

Yes, she cannot just run wild buying

40:33

everything for everyone here, or she cannot

40:35

just live at FedExex and choose the

40:37

glossy option, but at the same time.

40:40

Maybe this isn't the specific part of

40:42

our operations where we expect even a

40:44

reasonable return on interest. You know, hopefully

40:46

we can make that up elsewhere so

40:48

that we can do this kind of

40:50

work. Do you feel like hopefully it's

40:52

heading in that sort of direction? Yeah,

40:54

I do. I think that and again,

40:56

I think it's been sort of a

40:58

slow movement and now we finally, because

41:01

of the number of... news outlets that

41:03

are doing this kind of work and

41:05

doing different kinds of journalism, training people,

41:07

printing things, doing SMS-based reporting, like, that's

41:09

more mainstream now. And so I think

41:11

now the funders are finally catching up

41:13

with it, right? Are like, oh, okay,

41:15

this is how we get more information

41:17

out to people. And I think it's

41:19

hard to, one of the thing that

41:21

I was trying to get across and

41:24

I think is really helpful is, you

41:26

know, as we are sort of like

41:28

deciding. what's worth paying for as far

41:30

as like how to get information out

41:32

or what's what partnership is worthwhile or

41:34

if we're gonna reach enough people or

41:36

should we experiment with this new way

41:38

of getting information out. Meanwhile all of

41:40

the fossil fuel companies all of the

41:42

you know the heritage foundations of the

41:44

world all of you know these organizations

41:47

and people with really dangerous misinformation. Like

41:49

they're going to schools and they're going

41:51

to churches and they're hosting events. Yes,

41:53

and they're writing op-eds and they're, you

41:55

know, trying to get their stuff published

41:57

on the, you know, local news. Like

41:59

that machine is constantly working and we're

42:01

kind of coming at a deficit where

42:03

like those communities that we're trying to

42:05

reach are already like. in it with

42:08

all of that misinformation. And so let's

42:10

just put our resources in time. There's

42:12

an urgency here that I think sometimes

42:14

isn't, you know, really respected like, oh,

42:16

we have time to figure out, like,

42:18

have the best way to do it.

42:20

I know, let's just throw stuff at

42:22

the wall and see what sticks, let's

42:24

like, collaborate, let's stop trying to scoop

42:26

each other and just get this stuff

42:28

out there. And I think that's like

42:31

a constant battle that I think it's

42:33

slowly changing. you know, trying to figure

42:35

this out. So the least we can

42:37

do is just try stuff, right? That's

42:39

sort of the spot we're in right

42:41

now. It's like a journalism version of

42:43

mutual aid almost. Yeah, you know, yeah,

42:45

yeah, which it's like, you know, you

42:47

think about, you're like, mutual aid is

42:49

amazing and would be great if these

42:51

things could be provided by the government

42:54

or the, you know, the systems of

42:56

power that should be doing it. nonprofits,

42:58

things like that have a big name,

43:00

this and that, that are wasteful, just

43:02

like any company or government or whatever

43:04

it might be. But at the same

43:06

time, you know, again, and we kind

43:08

of work in the realm of all

43:10

the maker break things here, so we're

43:12

not just worried about Helene, we're working

43:15

it again, about, you know, zero heat

43:17

protections and all that everyday stuff, like

43:19

you said, that's just happening. But there's

43:21

also organizations like, like, when this Newer

43:23

and dear to my heart, is Alex'

43:25

lemonade stand, and lemonade stand, and they

43:27

do, and they do, and they do,

43:29

and, and they do, and, and they

43:31

do, and, and, and, and, and, and

43:33

they do, and, and, and, and, and,

43:35

and, and, pediatric cancer and all these

43:38

incredible doctors and scientists and their whole

43:40

support mechanisms. But they also fund specifically

43:42

travel for families who need to go

43:44

to treatment or clinical trials, whatever it

43:46

might be, because that is just because

43:48

you got in doesn't mean you can

43:50

afford to travel to Philly or wherever.

43:52

Nothing turns me into like radicalized Batman

43:54

more than when people are like, well,

43:56

are they wasting money? like, you know,

43:59

what they would love is for just

44:01

their not to be kid cancer. It

44:03

would be great if this just wasn't

44:05

a problem in the fucking first place,

44:07

or if there was enough funding in

44:09

general to just, they didn't have to

44:11

do this work and see kids who

44:13

are sick. Like, yeah, again, you know,

44:15

it's like the whole, oh, look, how

44:17

much this billionaire donated donated, that's great.

44:19

It would be great if our entire

44:22

health system didn't rely on go funny

44:24

and billionaire donations. we do have to

44:26

build the trust and we have to

44:28

do the work because that's where we

44:30

are you know so you try to

44:32

change the game while we've got to

44:34

play by the rules that exist because

44:36

like you said and this is a

44:38

lot of what we try to do

44:40

you know in our work and also

44:42

this new app thing we've launched it's

44:45

like treating any illness is deal with

44:47

the cause and deal with the symptoms

44:49

you know we have to try to

44:51

pass laws for universal free healthy school

44:53

lunches but also there's people that need

44:55

to eat to eat tonight. and we

44:57

need to feed them and I appreciate

44:59

that you are of the opinion of

45:01

no we have to throw shit at

45:03

the wall because we can't just wait

45:06

you know yeah it's true I mean

45:08

I would love there to be more

45:10

government funding for media and I mean

45:12

like in this kind of group where

45:14

we're like trying to advocate for policies

45:16

to improve funding for journalism in general

45:18

you know just like for public broadcasting.

45:20

What does that look like in other

45:22

parts of journalism? And like, yes, that

45:24

is incredibly important. And at the same

45:26

time, as we've seen, you know, in

45:29

North Carolina right now, it was news

45:31

yesterday that FEMA was and other federal

45:33

officials were told to leave because a

45:35

militia was coming in trying to. quote

45:37

unquote like hunt FEMA and when misinformation

45:39

has created that many dangerous situations like

45:41

it's urgent right like we have to

45:43

this is not just a thing we

45:45

can kind of slowly address like we

45:47

are obviously because of the election but

45:49

like just in general it's like this

45:52

in so many other areas we just

45:54

aren't paying as much as engine and

45:56

so I think journalism has a bigger

45:58

role like the industry in general has

46:00

a bigger role in addressing that then

46:02

I think you know we're often like

46:04

oh non-profits and you know, other organizations

46:06

are doing this kind of work on

46:08

the ground. It's like, no, like, we're

46:10

the ones on the ground. It's our

46:13

job to make sure people have a

46:15

healthy information ecosystem because that's so vital

46:17

to their lives. And I think that's

46:19

such an important thing to me and

46:21

becomes more important all the time, not

46:23

just in times of a hurricane, but

46:25

in general, getting the point across to

46:27

people all over the US and internationally,

46:29

that not just a free media, but

46:31

like a media that's well funded and

46:34

diverse and, you know, or economically, racially,

46:36

geographically, like we have to make sure

46:38

that this continues because we're seeing in

46:40

real time like the dangers of what

46:42

happens when it doesn't, you know. And

46:44

also just this on one hand, I

46:46

guess practically budget wise and because there

46:48

is so much to cover this version

46:50

of journalism and policy where again you

46:52

kind of do something and then take

46:55

your foot off the pedal and go,

46:57

well, okay, we've reported on it, hopefully

46:59

that's out there, but again I have

47:01

these barometers of okay, is there still

47:03

a place in the place in the

47:05

place in the US. that people like

47:07

semi affectionately call cancer alley because if

47:09

there is then it were probably not

47:11

done yet you know with the they

47:13

need better information totally they have

47:15

the information they're being

47:18

told misinformation because we

47:20

keep building shit and again we

47:22

call it cancer alley it feels like

47:24

there's still more to do you know

47:26

it feels like something could be better

47:28

funded I don't know you know how

47:30

you know how you pick the order

47:32

but it feels like there's more to

47:34

do It's just fun. Yeah, I know.

47:36

It's so overwhelming sometimes that, you know,

47:38

it's, and I'm sure, you know, organizers

47:41

and everybody feels like this

47:43

all the time, like health care workers,

47:45

teachers, you're just like, damn, like, what

47:47

do I, how can I make some sort

47:49

of change? And it just feels like

47:52

I'm not doing anything, like I'm just

47:54

spinning my wheels. And I think, the

47:56

way I think about it is, there's

47:58

a little corner. That

48:01

I can work on right and that

48:03

is right now. It's in Western North

48:05

Carolina I can get this FEMA information

48:07

out and hopefully people will see a

48:09

FEMA official maybe one person sees somebody

48:11

in a FEMA jacket and is like

48:13

they're not gonna seize my land I'm

48:16

gonna apply for money that hopefully I

48:18

can get from them and it's a

48:20

messy process and there's a lot of

48:22

faults that the federal government has in

48:24

this situation right a lot of reasons

48:26

for distress but if I could just

48:28

like maybe work on that little corner

48:30

and then hopefully replicate it, then, you

48:33

know, that's all I can hope for,

48:35

I guess. You do have to moderate

48:37

your expectations a little bit. We're fond

48:39

of saying people, right? And say things

48:41

like, I heard the jet stream slowing

48:43

down. What can I do? And I'm

48:45

like, not much. However, here's a million

48:48

things you can do depending on what

48:50

you're interested in and what your skills

48:52

are and what you're... resource or money

48:54

wise or time wise capable of knowing

48:56

the typical constraints of our country without

48:58

child care you know like that is

49:00

a constraint but at the same time

49:03

again we say this use this phrase

49:05

which is all you can do is

49:07

all you can do which is like

49:09

if you are able to control something

49:11

and affect it give it everything you

49:13

got but understand that there's certain forces

49:15

and things that you're not going to

49:17

be able to completely effect on your

49:20

own or right now or or more

49:22

broadly but again hopefully it does scale

49:24

in the way that you have built

49:26

a playbook for this that maybe other

49:28

media companies that exist or don't exist

49:30

yet can look at and go, okay,

49:32

maybe it doesn't actually cost that much

49:35

to run these fellowships in this reporting

49:37

and these pamphlets and all these type

49:39

of things. Maybe that's somewhere we can

49:41

pull costs back somewhere and apply it

49:43

here and where could we have that

49:45

effect? Because you do have to do

49:47

the work. And there's a lot. It's

49:50

very easy to look around and be

49:52

like, I've only affected one part of

49:54

Western North Carolina. It's like, I know,

49:56

but everyone else is ignoring them. So

49:58

yeah, definitely. And one of those things

50:00

in journalism I think is, you know,

50:02

I always talk about like, when I

50:04

was younger, all I want to do

50:07

was like, when I'm Pulitzer Prize, I

50:09

was like, that's what I'm doing. You

50:11

know, but now. Yeah, in this way,

50:13

you're like, yes, amazing, incredible, congrats to

50:15

everyone who's everyone who's everyone at Pulitzer.

50:17

And so many people are just competing

50:19

for that, right? And rather than thinking.

50:22

where does this information go? And it

50:24

could be life-saving. It could be, it

50:26

could change someone's mindset. It might not

50:28

change a policy at the federal level

50:30

or, you know, get as much attention,

50:32

but it could change something on a

50:34

smaller scale. And that's something I think

50:37

about a lot and also yell about

50:39

a lot whenever I. I yell at

50:41

her. I'm just shaking a rake in

50:43

my front yard all of the time

50:45

to people. But it does matter and

50:47

how you. set your expectations and how

50:49

you understand and operate within scales matters

50:51

too. You know, again, I'm in Virginia

50:54

and Virginia has become very purple, blue,

50:56

back and forth sort of thing, but

50:58

you know, the example I use whenever

51:00

I tell people, please stop not stop

51:02

giving to presidential races, but please give

51:04

to state and local races is, you

51:06

know, I'm very familiar with a couple

51:09

of the legislators who bare minimum passed

51:11

Medicaid in Virginia. Oh God, what was

51:13

that now, eight years ago. And Overnight,

51:15

400,000 people, who most of which probably

51:17

had never had any sort of health

51:19

care health insurance before, got it. And

51:21

that can be your scale. That's still

51:24

a hell of a lot of people

51:26

whose lives, you more or less, just

51:28

changed. I have a friend who in

51:30

Richmond, they have this big program, they

51:32

built this big beautiful pool, and part

51:34

of the way they got funding from

51:36

the city and the county in these

51:38

private institutions, University Richmond, was to say...

51:41

We're going to make it free for

51:43

every kid in Richmond to get swim

51:45

lessons. And this guy I know, who

51:47

is the executive director, showed me this

51:49

big wall where they have a count

51:51

every year from the schools and the

51:53

different neighborhoods, how many kids they've taught

51:56

to swim. And you know, it's 12,000

51:58

kids, something like that so far. And

52:00

it's easy to be like, oh, there's

52:02

400 million people. It's OK. But if

52:04

you've taught 12,000 kids to swim, you.

52:06

you've probably over the course of their

52:08

collective lives and each of their lives

52:11

you've probably saved like 20 lives which

52:13

doesn't seem like a lot I understand

52:15

that in the grand scope of is

52:17

the jet stream slowing down but you

52:19

can definitely go to sleep at night

52:21

knowing that you are really doing something

52:23

and if you're building a plain text

52:25

website in SMS for you know Florida

52:28

farm workers who are already fucked because

52:30

of the system or folks in Western

52:32

North Carolina in a state that cannot

52:34

decide what it wants to be and

52:36

how it wants to help people, that's

52:38

something to hang your head on. This

52:40

is great. I've got a last couple

52:43

questions and I'm going to get you

52:45

out of here. Is that all right?

52:47

Yeah, go for it. Okay. What do

52:49

you feel like sort of in brief?

52:51

This is the what can we do

52:53

sort of thing? What of this playbook

52:55

can sort of be summarized down as

52:58

much as possible? What has been transferable?

53:00

many black neighborhoods, Latino neighborhoods, maternal health,

53:02

whatever it might be. What have your

53:04

playbook do you feel can be transferable?

53:06

And what have been things where you're

53:08

like, well, this has been pretty unique

53:10

to this specific situation. What can people

53:12

start to adopt or at least think

53:15

about ahead of time here? One thing

53:17

I always like to say is, please

53:19

copy what I'm doing. I mean, it's,

53:21

I mean, don't plagiarize it, if you

53:23

don't mind. You could refer or paraphrase

53:25

it. But it is a template. in

53:27

their community. I mean, there's so many

53:30

people already doing this work. If you

53:32

are, you know, I think there's a

53:34

lot of folks general. I see a

53:36

lot of women sort of leading these

53:38

efforts in their communities where they're like

53:40

tracking pollution or trying to educate their

53:42

neighbors or start a citizens group. And

53:45

that is, you're doing information access work,

53:47

right? You're trying to make sure. And

53:49

so I think, you know, taking, you

53:51

know, lessons from not just what I'm

53:53

doing, but other organizations that are doing

53:55

really important community-centered journalism is like, how

53:57

do I use the tools of journalism

53:59

to make sure it's accurate, make sure

54:02

it's like fact-checked, use the correct sources

54:04

like that I can trust and get

54:06

that information out to people and also

54:08

identifying misinformation. If you see no matter

54:10

where you are like if you see

54:12

someone I mean I'm not advocating for

54:14

getting on Facebook fights all the time

54:17

but if you see because I did

54:19

it the other day and it was

54:21

not super successful. Why? If you see

54:23

somebody saying misinformation, whether you're like at

54:25

your holiday, dinner or table, or someone

54:27

sharing some of you, you're like, I

54:29

know that's inaccurate. You don't necessarily have

54:32

to do it publicly, but are there

54:34

ways in your life where you can

54:36

be like, hey, here's how I know

54:38

that's not true. Here's where this information

54:40

comes from. I did this around like

54:42

female stuff just because that's something I

54:44

feel very confident in addressing. And I

54:46

think that those conversations suck, they're uncomfortable.

54:49

engaging a little bit more with people

54:51

that were just like, uh... we're not

54:53

going to agree. I think that is

54:55

just like one tiny thing to do.

54:57

In general, like just taking this playbook,

54:59

look for news outlets in your area

55:01

that like support journalism, right? You don't

55:04

have to just like subscribe to your

55:06

local paper, but can you find if

55:08

you're in Atlanta, there's an organization called

55:10

Canopie Atlanta that does, they train people

55:12

to do journalism through fellowships and they

55:14

go out and write about issues in

55:16

their neighborhoods, not just environmental ones. They

55:19

also have a documenters program where you're

55:21

paid to go to go to go

55:23

to. a local meetings and take notes

55:25

and publish them. And that's popping up

55:27

in so many cities across the country.

55:29

It's in Sacramento, it's in Philadelphia, you

55:31

can look at that through City Bureau

55:33

or documentaries. There's just all these opportunities

55:36

that aren't necessarily like the traditional media

55:38

that you might see that are doing

55:40

things like the things that I'm talking

55:42

about. And you can always start something

55:44

like that. yourself. It's useful to learn

55:46

how to do like I said the

55:48

tools of journalism before to make sure

55:51

that you're doing it in a way

55:53

that's like ethical and like people can

55:55

trust but if you're really interested in

55:57

like storytelling and getting information out like

55:59

there are a lot of ways that

56:01

you can do that and you don't

56:03

need the whole newsroom to back you

56:06

up. or you could work with a

56:08

local organization in your community that's focused

56:10

on a particular thing, like lead pipes

56:12

or pollution or whatever it may be.

56:14

And so I think there's kind of,

56:16

you know, it's otherly, I did, you

56:18

know, I could only print off a

56:20

hundred brochures here and there are 500

56:23

brochures and now I can print off

56:25

thousands. So there's totally useful ways to

56:27

do this at different scales. And I

56:29

think it all starts with just kind

56:31

of recognizing sort of what you're really

56:33

passionate about. information gaps you see. And

56:35

when you're in your neighborhood and dealing

56:38

with something that you know is a

56:40

problem that maybe hasn't been recognized yet,

56:42

that's where you can be at the

56:44

most use, you know. Sure, because nobody

56:46

knows it better than you. You are

56:48

of that space. Awesome. That's super, super

56:50

helpful. Okay, last little lightning round questions.

56:53

You've got lives to change here. Lindsay,

56:55

first time in your life, when you

56:57

realized you had the power of change

56:59

or the power to do something. meaningful

57:01

to someone besides yourself? Oh my gosh,

57:03

that's a really hard question. I think

57:05

it probably was, I don't know, this

57:07

is kind of late, but like when

57:10

I was in grad school in Chicago

57:12

and I was writing about children's health

57:14

and had to write a lot about

57:16

like asthma and stuff on the south

57:18

side and really just, I think I

57:20

got an email or a note from

57:22

somebody that they, like I was a

57:25

student run. website that was not you

57:27

know super well circulated or anything and

57:29

I got a note that you know

57:31

like someone had read that and had

57:33

impacted how they thought about this issue

57:35

and they were gonna share it with

57:37

people and I've gotten many of those

57:40

over the years and I think every

57:42

single time I'm like oh this like

57:44

people read things and change their minds

57:46

about something or can use that somewhere

57:48

and so that that was like the

57:50

first time I remember that really well

57:52

but it's happened a million times since

57:54

that it always surprises me. One of

57:57

the things I'm trying to figure out

57:59

how to program into this tool thing

58:01

is how to just write your journalist

58:03

or newspaper or radio station. and say

58:05

thank you for covering this thing, because

58:07

it does go a long way to

58:09

not just the person doing the work,

58:12

but the organizations. It's like, oh, I'm

58:14

glad we spent resources on Lindsay's pamphlets.

58:16

You know, people appreciated that. So that's

58:18

right. And I feel like I need

58:20

to do that to so many people,

58:22

not just, you know, journalists, but people

58:24

I see quoted in things or like

58:27

just try to track people down more

58:29

often and be like, thanks so much

58:31

for that information or for what you

58:33

did, you did, you did, you did,

58:35

you know. Yeah, yeah. Well, thank you

58:37

for sharing that. Last one. What is

58:39

a book you've read and clearly all

58:41

of your free time over the past

58:44

year or so that has affected you

58:46

in some way, changed your thinking in

58:48

some way, opened your mind to maybe

58:50

a topic you hadn't considered before? I

58:52

do put off a lot of other

58:54

things so I can read because I

58:56

love reading, but I'm actually reading a

58:59

book right now. I'm not done with

59:01

it yet. So... you know, I can't

59:03

speak to like being finished, but it's

59:05

called The Quickening by Elizabeth Rush and

59:07

she, it's about motherhood and a trip

59:09

that she takes to Antarctica to write

59:11

about the melting glaciers and kind of

59:14

combining like the idea of continuing our

59:16

legacy right and becoming a parent and

59:18

I've already become a parent but it's

59:20

just so interesting to kind of see

59:22

her weave in that together with climate

59:24

change because I think oftentimes that's an

59:26

either or thing that people decide like

59:28

if you care about the earth you

59:31

can't have kids or vice versa you

59:33

know it just it becomes a crazy

59:35

conversation and this is just a really

59:37

nuanced beautiful way to to talk about

59:39

the future of our planet in a

59:41

both in a beautiful optimistic way and

59:43

in a very depressing way and also

59:46

I'm just learning a ton about Antarctica

59:48

that I had no idea about so

59:50

cool I love that. Well thank you

59:52

for sharing that I will add it

59:54

to my truly endless list of things.

59:56

The next end is full, yeah. Right,

59:58

and my kids are, you know, I've

1:00:00

been trying to do this new thing.

1:00:03

My kids are 9, 10, and 11,

1:00:05

and I've been just... reading not just

1:00:07

with them, but they're like, hey, I

1:00:09

read this book, you would like it.

1:00:11

I was like, fuck it, I'll read

1:00:13

that. Let me push aside that whole

1:00:15

book stand. And it's actually really fun.

1:00:18

It's a great way to connect with

1:00:20

them. That's so cool. Yeah. And also

1:00:22

like the books are great. And it's

1:00:24

a great way to just keep having

1:00:26

conversations with them before they're going to

1:00:28

start ignoring me very soon. I don't

1:00:30

know what the point was, but nice

1:00:33

to connect to connect in that way,

1:00:35

which is to connect in that way,

1:00:37

which is. thinking about things a little

1:00:39

more comprehensively. There's a wonderful new book

1:00:41

by a gentleman I just had on

1:00:43

the show named Ferris Jaber, I think

1:00:45

his name is. Not about parenthood, but

1:00:47

just the earth is sort of a

1:00:50

living organism and all the ways it

1:00:52

actually works and you know how we're

1:00:54

affecting it. It's affected us. All that,

1:00:56

it's quite lovely. Anyways.org is where... all

1:00:58

my stuff is. I'm the senior manager

1:01:00

of community engagement, so we won't see

1:01:02

my stuff on the front page, but

1:01:05

if you dig a little bit, you

1:01:07

can find the community engagement stuff. There's

1:01:09

grist.org/updates is like where we post a

1:01:11

lot of the stuff that we're doing

1:01:13

with this kind of stuff that we're

1:01:15

doing with this kind of work. And

1:01:17

then once you're there, you can see

1:01:20

a lot of the stuff that I'm

1:01:22

working on. Thank you so much for

1:01:24

your time and for this awesome work.

1:01:26

I really appreciate, you know, when folks

1:01:28

say what can I do, you seem

1:01:30

to really ask this question, which is

1:01:32

like how far can I take it,

1:01:34

you know, where it's a little bit

1:01:37

like the rural broadband thing. It's not

1:01:39

enough for to just build towers, like

1:01:41

you got to connect people, we have

1:01:43

to do that work, or else they're

1:01:45

left out of this thing. I appreciate

1:01:47

that. It's pretty awesome. Thank you. Thanks.

1:01:49

For more conversations, scroll back in the

1:01:52

feed or visit podcast.important not important.com to

1:01:54

search by name, topic, whatever. Thanks for

1:01:56

sharing, thanks for leaving a review, and

1:01:58

thanks for giving the shit. Music