0:00

I'm Andy Levy, former Fox News and

0:02

CNN HLN guy, and current cable

0:04

news conscientious objector. I'm a former libertarian

0:06

who now sits pretty comfortably on

0:08

the left. Hi, I'm Danielle

0:10

Moody, former educator and recovering

0:12

lobbyist, but today I'm an

0:14

unapologetic, woke commentator on America's

0:17

Threats to Democracy. And I'm

0:19

producer Jesse Cannon, and I'm here to make

0:21

sure things don't go too far off

0:23

the rails. We're here to have fun, smart

0:25

conversations with some of the most knowledgeable

0:27

and entertaining people in politics, media, and beyond.

0:29

Our goal is to try and make

0:31

sense of our current crazy world, our

0:33

new abnormal, and hopefully even make you

0:35

laugh through the tears. Welcome back to

0:37

another bonus episode of the New Abnormal and we

0:40

thank you so much for being here. Today we

0:42

have extra special guests, Katja Swank and Luke Goldstein

0:44

are reporters at the lever and they are here

0:46

to talk all about their new investigation into how

0:48

Trump's tariffs are helping corporations hike prices on consumers

0:50

and what this says about the state of regulation

0:52

under his administration. But first,

0:55

let's have some fun. Are

0:57

you guys ready to listen to some clips? Clips.

0:59

Clips. That's enthusiasm you're

1:01

going to regret. Okay.

1:04

So Attorney General Pam Boddy, one of the

1:06

worst to ever do it. She has

1:08

a brand new dystopia. She's going to unveil

1:10

for us. Thank you all

1:12

for joining us today. We're

1:14

excited to be here for

1:17

the launch of the Task Force

1:19

to eradicate anti -Christian bias as

1:21

outlined in the president's executive

1:23

order. Joining me today are members

1:25

of the task force and

1:27

individuals who have been impacted by

1:29

the anti -Christian bias. Together

1:33

this task

1:35

force will identify

1:37

any unlawful anti

1:39

-Christian policies, practices,

1:41

or conduct across the

1:43

government. Seek input from

1:45

the faith -based organizations

1:48

and state governments to

1:50

end anti -Christian bias. Find

1:53

and fix deficiencies in existing

1:55

and regulatory practices that

1:57

might contribute to the anti

1:59

-Christian bias. As

2:01

President Trump has just a

2:04

quick reminder, executive orders are

2:06

not policy. Yes. So that

2:08

folks don't get it twisted.

2:11

Was she wearing her big shiny

2:13

cross when she was stating

2:15

this? This is the same person

2:17

who told us most recently,

2:19

referring to a Brigo Garcia's wife

2:21

as that woman he married

2:23

and those kids that he has,

2:25

not his family, saying that they

2:28

were better off without fuck

2:30

you and your fucking faux Christian

2:32

bullshit. Thank you and good night. Just

2:34

want to say her title card was blocking with

2:36

the visibility on whether the cross was on. Really,

2:40

the only thing I have to say

2:42

to this is, there is no anti -Christian

2:44

bias in this country. You sure? There's

2:46

a lot of pro -Christian bias

2:48

in this country. These people

2:50

are, first of all, they are

2:52

the most fragile snowflakes that

2:54

their God ever created. But

2:57

what they... anti

3:00

-Christian bias is

3:02

basically, for the

3:04

most part, it means being forced

3:06

to recognize that queer people are

3:08

people. And really, I do think

3:10

that's what it boils down to,

3:12

for the most part, is they

3:14

start out by saying, we shouldn't

3:16

have to have our kids taught

3:19

that the gay lifestyle is good.

3:21

And they move from that very

3:23

quickly to, oh, we don't think

3:25

our kids should be taught or

3:27

should have to see anything that

3:29

acknowledges that there are gay people in

3:31

the world. That is anti -Christian bias. And

3:33

it's just, I mean, maybe

3:35

I'm wrong, but we're gonna

3:37

see what this so -called

3:39

anti -Christian bias directive, what

3:41

kind of things people bring up.

3:44

It's gonna be things like that woman,

3:46

I'm blanking on her name, who

3:48

was forced to issue a marriage license

3:50

to two gay men. They're

3:53

gonna say that's anti -Christian bias.

3:55

No, that's called doing your fucking

3:57

job. No one's asking you to be

4:00

involved in a gay marriage, but if

4:02

you are the person who issues

4:04

licenses for marriages, you have to issue

4:06

licenses for all marriages, not just

4:08

marriages you personally approve of. It's not

4:10

anti -Christian bias to say that. It's

4:12

bigotry to allow you to do

4:14

that, and that's what they want. They

4:16

want to codify bigotry and make

4:18

bigotry okay by law for government officials

4:20

and for people like that. So

4:22

these are the worst people in the

4:24

world and they are horrible, horrible

4:26

Christians. See, I think that this is

4:28

going to end up going the

4:30

way they've been going with Mahmud, Cleol,

4:32

and Abrigo Garcia, where I think

4:34

they're going to try to triangulate. So

4:36

let's say they go after Lucian

4:38

graves for, and for those not familiar,

4:40

he is the president of the

4:42

Satanic temple. And let's say they prosecute

4:44

him and then it's, oh my

4:46

God, you're defending a Satanist. And that's

4:48

literally what it seems like they've

4:50

been trying to try. emulate support for

4:52

their disgusting, disgusting policies by doing

4:54

is go for these culture war issues

4:56

by finding someone to point at

4:59

and then say, well, how could you

5:01

be on their side? Yeah, and

5:03

I'm not saying this to you, Jesse,

5:05

because obviously you know this, but

5:07

you're allowed to be a Satanist in

5:09

America. It's not anti -Christian bias to

5:11

allow someone to establish a church

5:13

of Satan. Anti -Christian bias would be

5:15

you're not allowed to have a Christian

5:17

church. Yeah, and for those who

5:19

don't know the satanic temple is largely

5:21

just a free speech prank out

5:23

Like it's not something like they don't

5:25

actually sit there and worship Satan

5:27

all day They mostly file bills if

5:29

there's gonna be 10 commandments put

5:31

in a courthouse that they say they

5:33

want to have a satanic statue

5:35

Yes, but even if they did flat

5:37

out worship a being that they

5:39

consider to be Satan That's perfectly legal

5:41

in this country and should be

5:43

but again these people are absolute snowflakes.

5:45

They profess to have very strong

5:47

faith but it really seems to me

5:49

that their faith is incredibly weak

5:51

because they can't take anyone not agreeing

5:53

with them. And that to me

5:55

is just you don't believe in your

5:57

faith very strongly if the fact

5:59

that there are people who disagree with

6:01

you bothers you that much and

6:03

makes you angry and you want to

6:05

outlaw it. That's not someone who

6:08

has a strong and firm religious faith.

6:10

I'm sorry it's just not. This

6:12

is also the strong case for whenever

6:14

you see a character emerge from

6:16

the Republican party, go, wow, that person's

6:18

a real idiot, but we'll probably

6:20

never see more of them. You're making

6:22

the wrong bet. Yeah, exactly. Speaking

6:24

of idiots who I never thought would,

6:26

uh, mount to anything when I

6:28

first met them, Tim Pool, who was

6:30

recently found taking an insane amount

6:32

of money from a Russia propaganda outlet.

6:34

Well, he's now a White House

6:36

press pool reporter and, uh, let's listen

6:38

to his first appearance in the

6:40

pool. Individual in our new

6:42

media seat today, his name is Tim

6:44

Poole. He's a political commentator and a

6:46

media entrepreneur with millions of followers, a

6:48

very big platform. Currently host Tim Cast

6:50

IRL, a daily news and discussions show,

6:53

and The Culture of War, a weekly

6:55

podcast exploring cultural and political issues. His

6:57

programs feature in -depth conversations on topics such

6:59

as free speech, censorship, identity politics, and

7:01

societal change, often engaging with a diverse

7:03

range of guests. He's in Washington today

7:05

because we are also hosting a local

7:07

media row across the street in the

7:10

Eisenhower building, which is a testament to

7:12

our commitment to bring new voices into

7:14

the White House to cover the president

7:16

and this administration. So, Tim, why don't

7:18

you kick us off today? Yes. Many

7:21

of these organizations that are represented

7:23

in this room have marked in lockstep

7:25

on false narratives, such as the

7:27

very fine people hoax, the Covington smear,

7:29

and now what's being called the

7:31

Maryland man hoax, where an MS -13

7:33

gang member adjudicated by two different judges,

7:35

I believe, is just simply being referred

7:37

to as a Maryland man over and over again. Now,

7:40

in an effort from the White

7:42

House to expand access to new companies,

7:44

you've created this new media seat. So

7:46

I'm wondering if you can comment

7:48

on following this expansion, you've had numerous

7:51

outlets to disparage the companies that

7:53

you've had sit here as well as

7:55

the reporters. I'm wondering if

7:57

you can comment on the unprofessional behavior as

7:59

well as elaborate if there's any plans

8:01

to expand access to new companies. Sure. Well,

8:03

we certainly welcome diverse viewpoints in this

8:05

room, which is one of the reasons we

8:08

have you in here. And there's many

8:10

new faces in this room in comparison to

8:12

the previous administrations. We want to welcome

8:14

all viewpoints into this room. We welcome unbiased

8:16

journalists who really care about the truth

8:18

and the facts and the accuracy. Are we

8:20

going to point it out? Yeah, make

8:22

it stop. Make it stop. Like

8:25

I can't I anymore

8:28

like I can't I fucking like

8:30

that this bobblehead of a press

8:32

secretary I cannot stand I can't

8:34

stand listening to her voice. I

8:36

can't stand the bullshit that she

8:39

parrots out of her mouth She

8:41

is a younger version of Sarah

8:43

Huckabee Sanders like reading the script

8:45

reading the script unbiased as he

8:47

dribbles on a whole bunch of

8:49

lies But you don't have the

8:52

Associated Press in there an accredited

8:54

outlet right that is accredited and

8:56

used all around the world, but

8:58

this fucking, like, give me a

9:00

break, just stop. Ugh, okay, you've

9:02

succeeded, because I'm like, I'm done

9:05

today. I

9:07

have a modest proposal. The

9:09

White House pool should be

9:11

dissolved. Oh and

9:13

by that I mean I think

9:16

all the quote -unquote real news

9:18

organizations should just stop going

9:20

yes and cable news networks and

9:22

Whatever other than Fox obviously

9:24

and news nation, but CNN MSNBC

9:26

should not be televising these

9:29

things There's no information gleaned from

9:31

these things. It's just as

9:33

you said Danielle It's lie after

9:35

lie after lie and there

9:37

is absolutely no point to giving

9:40

air to these lies. Under this

9:42

president, the White House pool is

9:44

meaningless. It's a cesspool. Thank you.

9:46

Yes, it's a cesspool of Tim

9:48

Pools. There is no reason

9:50

for, look, we talk on the

9:52

show all the time. We go after

9:55

the New York Times, the Washington

9:57

Post. We're not, you know, we're not

9:59

in the pocket of big legacy

10:01

media. But There is no world in

10:03

which the New York Times, the

10:05

Washington Post, Reuters, whatever, Wall Street Journal,

10:07

should be sitting in a room

10:10

as co -equals with the likes of

10:12

Tim Poole, who is one of the

10:14

dumbest people on the planet, who

10:16

is, as Jesse pointed out before he

10:18

played the clip that broke our

10:20

brains, receives an awful lot of money

10:22

or a nice chunk of change

10:25

from being a Russian asset, apparently unwittingly,

10:27

which I believe because he's that

10:29

stupid. Yes. So, no. Just stop it.

10:31

Stop the farce. Stop pretending

10:33

that it's business as usual. And every

10:35

single one of these White House correspondents

10:37

should just say, I'm not doing this

10:39

anymore. This is ridiculous. I wish they would.

10:41

I wish they would. Yeah. I didn't

10:43

think the other thing that took me

10:46

back is I was watching this and I

10:48

was like, I remember when Ari Fleischer's

10:50

press outlet in the White House placed

10:52

a fake reporter that was a male escort

10:54

in the pool and we were like,

10:56

wow, this is as low as it

10:58

gets. And then you listen to

11:00

that clip and you think, what about

11:02

those good old days of Ari Fleischer

11:04

just lying his ass off with a

11:07

gay male escort asking softballs instead of

11:09

anyone asking hard questions? That

11:11

was just the most. bootlicking performance I have

11:13

ever seen in my life. And yet again,

11:15

I should have expected it when I first

11:17

met the stupidest person I thought I had

11:19

met that month when I first met him

11:21

many years ago. Folks,

11:30

I am very happy to

11:32

welcome back. And I think

11:34

then welcome for the first

11:36

time. So very

11:38

interesting. I love the lever.

11:41

I love the work that

11:43

you guys do there. I

11:45

think that the reporting is

11:47

important and smart. So I'm

11:49

happy to welcome back Katja

11:52

Schwenk. And I'm happy to

11:54

welcome Luke Goldstein, who have

11:56

written a very good piece,

11:58

investigative piece on how Trump

12:00

is helping price gougers exploit

12:02

his tariffs because why wouldn't

12:05

he? You guys write this

12:07

emboldened by the new administration's

12:09

regulatory reprieve quote price optimization

12:11

consultants are showing corporations how

12:13

to weaponize import levies to

12:15

fleece consumers. Katya, I'll start

12:18

with you talk to us

12:20

about Donald Trump's sweeping Liberation

12:22

Day. Liberation Day was supposed

12:24

to be the day America apparently

12:26

was liberated. I don't know

12:29

from what. I'm assuming our 401Ks

12:31

and our pensions. But talk

12:33

to us about Trump's Liberation Day

12:35

and what has ensued following

12:37

his escalation of the tariff war.

12:39

Yeah, yeah. So, you know,

12:42

Trump's Liberation Day, obviously he'd been

12:44

sort of touting it, touting

12:46

tariffs is like the, you know,

12:48

central plan for his administration

12:50

on Liberation Day, we get this

12:52

like very sweeping, chaotic. A

12:55

tariff rollout that is hitting

12:57

all these different countries that sends

12:59

the global economy into something

13:01

of a shock. And then

13:03

a few days later, Trump is

13:06

sort of continuing his trade war

13:08

with China that has rolled back.

13:10

Many of these tariffs he has

13:12

announced on Liberation Day and sort

13:14

of the chaos has continued since

13:16

then. What we were interested in.

13:18

was the way in which this

13:20

sort of really chaotic potentially harmful

13:22

tariff rollout was enabling companies to

13:25

take advantage of the kind of

13:27

uncertainty we've seen both for markets

13:29

and for consumers who are unsure

13:31

like how these tariffs which seem

13:33

to be changing like day to

13:35

day are going to be impacting

13:37

their daily lives, the things that

13:39

they're buying from the grocery store.

13:41

So Luke, in your piece, you

13:44

are quoting pricing guru, which I

13:46

didn't even know was a title,

13:48

pricing guru Craig Zawada, who you

13:50

write held an urgent summit for

13:52

his clients. And here is the

13:54

quote that I find really interesting.

13:56

He says this, there is perhaps

13:58

more of a window to make

14:01

changes to your pricing than there

14:03

has been before Zawada said. Customers

14:05

expect change. Now he

14:07

said it's the time to take advantage. Unpack

14:09

that for us. Yeah, yeah. And

14:11

thanks for having us on. So

14:13

that was one of the many

14:15

webinars that we were kind of

14:18

checking out for this piece. And

14:20

I guess sort of before I

14:22

get into it, you know, I

14:24

mean, the whole question here that

14:26

we were, you know, interrogating is,

14:28

At a very basic level, tariffs

14:30

increase costs for businesses. And the

14:32

big question is, how much are

14:34

those costs going to be passed

14:36

on to consumers? And what does

14:38

it mean more generally for pricing

14:40

writ large? We just went about

14:42

this by basically paying attention to

14:44

what companies are saying on their

14:47

own earnings calls with investors about

14:49

this topic. And also

14:51

going to pricing consultants such as

14:53

the one you mentioned. And

14:55

this is a whole kind of cottage industry

14:57

that he's a part of that's popped up in

14:59

recent years. And they're advising

15:01

companies on what to do about

15:03

their pricing, especially when you have

15:05

these kinds of shock events such

15:07

as tariffs or really the inflation

15:09

that we experienced for the last

15:11

several years coming out of the

15:13

pandemic. That was really a period

15:15

when they honed a lot of

15:18

these tactics and strategies. that

15:20

we lay out in the

15:22

piece and you know this

15:24

whole playbook really is a

15:26

way to not just pass

15:28

on as much of the

15:30

costs from increased inputs or

15:32

tariff duties on to consumers.

15:35

It's also defined basically ways

15:37

to nickel and dime consumers

15:39

at just about every angle. And

15:42

we can talk about that in detail.

15:44

But I think for some of the context

15:46

of what Craig's saying there and other

15:48

things we'll get into, I think what you

15:50

have to kind of understand at one

15:52

level is you go to the grocery store,

15:54

or you're shopping somewhere. And

15:56

you're not necessarily in tune with

15:58

what the whole supply chain

16:00

is behind the good that you're

16:02

buying. The company knows that.

16:04

They know what the costs are.

16:07

So you are put

16:09

a significant information

16:12

disadvantage, let's say. The companies

16:14

have their costs and they're trying to

16:16

basically find out how far are you

16:18

willing to go. How far can we

16:20

increase the price on this to boost

16:22

our margin? Not necessarily in connection to

16:24

what we know the actual cost is

16:26

that we've incurred. Here's the thing though,

16:29

I guess like to Luke's point, you

16:31

say as a corporation, I have to

16:33

price at a certain rate, right? In

16:35

order to make, not only make my

16:37

money back of what I'm putting out

16:39

for this particular good, but actually to

16:41

make money on it. Customers understand that

16:43

they are paying a markup, but a

16:46

reasonable markup for the goods that they

16:48

have. They know, right? For instance, if

16:50

I'm looking at, let's say, which is

16:52

always a good one, the price of

16:54

avocados, I know on average, if I'm

16:56

buying avocados every week, how much they

16:58

cost from one store to the next.

17:00

If now, because of the trade war

17:03

with Mexico, which hurts the avocado industry,

17:05

and I know that, okay, the price

17:07

is gonna go up, I'm thinking it's

17:09

going to go up, but I'm not

17:11

thinking I'm going to be paying $10

17:13

an avocado. So to

17:15

what extent are these corporations

17:17

able to gouge to the point

17:19

where people are just like,

17:21

you know what? I just need

17:23

to cover my basics, my

17:26

basic needs, which means that I'm

17:28

no longer going to look for

17:30

said avocado. I'll just stick

17:32

with the cucumber and to make

17:34

do you know what I'm saying like

17:36

there are ways in which consumers

17:38

begin to tighten their own belts knowing

17:40

that they have a limited amount

17:42

of funds to go a certain distance

17:44

what used to be considered like

17:46

oh the little extras guess what they're

17:48

not going to be the extras

17:50

anymore because people don't have the extra

17:52

money and if they begin to

17:54

see that corporations now are taking advantage

17:56

of an already terrible situation that

17:58

is a consumer tax right like aren't

18:00

they afraid to kind of shut

18:02

off the consumer altogether, I guess is

18:04

my point. Yeah, yeah, no. I

18:06

mean, I think this is kind of

18:08

an interesting push and pull that

18:10

you see. And it's kind of the

18:12

reason why these like pricing gurus,

18:14

pricing optimization consultants have like such a

18:16

role here, at least that we

18:19

found in our reporting is that like,

18:21

of course, like there is you

18:23

know, whether it's avocados or like online

18:25

shopping or like, you know, toothpaste

18:27

at the pharmacy, like all of these

18:29

goods, even if they're essential ones,

18:31

like there's a limit at which the

18:33

consumer will no longer buy them,

18:35

right? Or like a limit to which

18:37

companies can actually raise their prices

18:39

before they're going to see this drop

18:41

off and consumer interest or demand

18:43

or whatever. But like, and

18:45

that is sort of the role of

18:47

these pricing optimization consultants and that sort of

18:49

how they describe it is like, we

18:51

want to push prices like to the very

18:53

point that consumers won't be scared off. And

18:56

in many cases, that point is going to

18:58

be actually, it's going to allow them to

19:00

raise prices higher than they would have needed

19:02

to to simply cover the cost of tariffs.

19:05

Or, you know, in some cases, these businesses

19:07

aren't really seeing impacts yet from the

19:09

tariffs, you know, if they already have an

19:11

inventory here that they haven't yet sold

19:13

and things like that. So I think that

19:15

is sort of like, you know, as

19:17

these pricing optimization consultants, you know,

19:19

become more and more, or as we're

19:21

seeing like price optimization more and

19:23

more integrated into all sorts of both

19:25

grocery stores, retail shopping and all

19:27

of these different things, you're going to

19:29

see companies try all of these

19:31

different tactics to push prices like as

19:33

high as they possibly can and

19:35

maybe changing them even like minute to

19:37

minute so that they can do

19:39

that. The thing here is that normally,

19:41

right, given a normal

19:44

administration, right? One that

19:46

actually believed in democracy and

19:48

wasn't trying to weaponize government

19:50

against the citizens of this

19:52

country. You would roll out

19:55

policies to protect consumers from

19:57

price gouging, right? And

19:59

that's not all, Luke. customers

20:02

can expect from this

20:04

administration. It's kind of like,

20:06

I don't know, every person for themselves,

20:08

right? Like, hey, if you, you know,

20:10

if you, if you get gouged

20:12

or you're hit over the head with

20:14

these prices, like that's your problem,

20:16

right? Like it's every person for themselves.

20:18

And so what responsibility, if any, do

20:20

you think that this administration will

20:22

take in order to protect consumers or

20:24

do they just not care at

20:26

the end of the day? And I

20:29

mean, we know that they don't care,

20:31

but I believe that they care

20:33

about money or at least say, that's

20:35

what I think, if anything. Yeah. So

20:37

I mean, the quote that we

20:39

have in this piece from a former

20:41

Biden regulator that we spoke to

20:43

is that essentially companies at the moment

20:45

have a green light to more or

20:47

less gouge that comes through from

20:49

the sort of perceived impunity with which

20:51

they are talking very publicly and

20:53

putting in writing about what these pricing

20:55

strategies are that they're ready to deploy.

20:57

There's not a lot of inside

20:59

sources here in this piece. This is

21:01

really everything that's being aired out

21:03

publicly. And I think

21:05

to kind of bring this full circle

21:07

or take a step back, your

21:10

question earlier about what the constraints are

21:12

on how much you can price

21:14

is absolutely right. There's two constraints. It's

21:16

one consumers will just pull back

21:18

spending, or if they see a better

21:20

price at one of your competitors,

21:22

right, they'll go there. What the whole

21:24

price optimization consultant industry is about

21:27

is finding exactly at a granular level

21:29

of data what the limits are

21:31

to both of those. And the other

21:33

thing I'll add is that, especially

21:35

on the retail side, but in many

21:37

other industries, there is much greater

21:39

market power now than firms have accrued

21:41

over the last several decades. So

21:44

there isn't as much competition on

21:46

one side. And again, these new data

21:48

tools is what allows them to

21:50

really test the boundaries of the limits

21:52

of pricing. And during

21:54

the inflation period, this was a

21:56

whole test run for these new strategies.

21:58

You had things like drip pricing, you

22:01

had surge pricing. I

22:04

think good example here is what Uber

22:06

does, where you have your app out,

22:08

they can see what your battery level

22:10

is at. So if you have a

22:12

low battery level, they know, wow, you

22:14

really need this ride so they can

22:16

increase price. I mean, it's gotten to

22:18

a very kind of sophisticated level. Under

22:20

the Biden administration, with the Democratic Chair,

22:22

Lena Kahn, this is a antitrust regulatory

22:24

agency. They started looking into some of

22:26

these practices. that they saw

22:28

being used out in markets. And

22:30

last year, they opened what was

22:33

what's called a market study to

22:35

start, you know, kind of probing,

22:37

investigating what's really going on here

22:39

with pricing. They served orders to

22:41

a whole handful of companies and

22:43

their consultants to hand over documents. And

22:46

they started really looking into this. They

22:49

released a whole report based on those documents

22:51

that doesn't allege law breaking, but it

22:53

kind of was putting companies on notice that

22:55

we're scrutinizing you with the hopes that

22:57

that would impact behavior. At the start of

22:59

this year, under the Trump administration, the

23:02

new Republican chair of the Feral

23:04

Trade Commission, Andrew Ferguson, had shut off

23:06

comments on that staff report, basically

23:08

intended to try to gather more information

23:10

about what was going on here.

23:12

And that was really the point where

23:14

companies saw, oh, the regulators asleep

23:16

at the wheel here, we kind of

23:18

have a free pass to move

23:20

forward. I'm so grateful because

23:22

like what you all are

23:24

nerthing is just obscene, all the

23:26

ways in which people who don't

23:29

have a ton are being

23:31

asked to stretch their dollars as

23:33

far as possible. And no

23:35

one is looking out for the

23:37

quote unquote little person. Nobody

23:39

is looking out for the average

23:41

person, the average family and

23:43

what it is that they need.

23:46

And just to know that

23:48

this administration I'm certain will benefit

23:50

from the grifting that is

23:52

going that is happening at the

23:54

hands of corporations. Katya,

23:56

can you talk to us

23:58

more about where the FTC

24:00

is in a bit more

24:03

detail, the Federal Trade Commission,

24:05

what you foresee their role is

24:07

right now. We know what their role

24:09

was under Biden, which was going

24:11

after Gougers, but where their role is

24:13

now and what you see as

24:15

this either Trump announced this week, he's

24:17

going to ease off of the

24:19

tariffs with China. We have no idea

24:21

if that's true, where you see

24:23

this war headed. Yeah, yeah, well, I

24:25

mean, you know, the FTCs rule

24:27

here, I think is it's really important

24:30

to emphasize, right, that like, you

24:32

know, as Luke was saying, we have

24:34

this study into these companies, I

24:36

think companies that we're using these really

24:38

sophisticated pricing tools. and

24:40

also companies who were doing what's

24:42

called surveillance pricing. So it was sort

24:44

of adjusting consumers' personal data from

24:46

different sources and then using that to

24:48

tailor prices, you know, according

24:51

to demographic information or like, you

24:53

know, your browsing history or whatever they

24:55

were doing, personal data, potentially they

24:57

were put on notice by the FTC

24:59

under Biden. And then, you know,

25:01

really one of the first actions that

25:03

the FTC chair took upon becoming

25:05

in charge of the Federal Trade Commission

25:07

was to drop So it was

25:09

really kind of like a, you know,

25:12

intentional like immediate green light just as

25:14

the tariff rollout was beginning to

25:16

happen. But you know, I mean, as

25:18

to what we're going to see

25:20

next, I think what's important here is

25:22

that like, and this is something

25:24

again that these companies were saying and

25:27

that we were listening to them

25:29

say as we were doing this reporting

25:31

is that it is just the

25:33

uncertainty regardless of how the trade war

25:35

progresses. They are going

25:37

to be using this uncertainty as

25:39

backing to raise prices because I

25:41

think they are praying on the

25:43

fact that consumers really don't actually

25:45

know how much the tariffs are

25:47

impacting the price or would impact

25:49

the price of goods that they're

25:51

buying on a daily basis. They

25:53

don't they don't really know exactly

25:55

what's going on with the supply

25:57

chain. So regardless of where things

26:00

sort of had economically, it remains

26:02

a really good pretext for companies

26:04

to use to drive prices. And

26:06

you know, I mean, obviously, the

26:08

FTC could play another important role

26:10

in this by addressing the impacts

26:12

of monopoly power on all of

26:14

this. We're like, if we were

26:16

breaking up big grocery chains, right,

26:18

grocery retailers wouldn't be as enabled

26:20

and emboldened to raise prices, even

26:22

if they have this tariff pretext.

26:24

But, you know, obviously we're seeing

26:26

the FTC take, you know, the

26:28

back seat on these issues, at

26:30

least compared to what it was

26:32

doing under Lena Kahn. So, you

26:34

know, as the FTC official told

26:36

us, it's really, it's a green

26:38

light. It's open season on consumers.

26:41

It's open season on consumers. And Luke,

26:43

your final thoughts as well on

26:45

what you think, I guess, the ultimate

26:47

reaction is going to be from

26:49

consumers and how this will ultimately affect

26:51

the way that we shop. Yeah,

26:53

I think what the playbook looks like

26:56

from here moving forward. Now, obviously,

26:58

there's not literally a playbook. I mean,

27:00

we're kind of putting this together,

27:02

but it's a composite of similar trends

27:04

and similar kinds of rhetoric that

27:06

we've seen across companies and consultants. Really,

27:08

the first stage that we're going

27:10

to start seeing rolled out that's already

27:12

begun is One other limitation as

27:14

well for companies raising prices is they

27:16

don't, you know, they don't want

27:18

it to hurt their, you know, quote

27:20

unquote, brand reputation, right? You

27:22

don't need known as a gouger.

27:25

So what started happening is companies that

27:27

know that they're going to have

27:29

a hit on their supply chain to

27:31

some extent, right? They are putting

27:33

some language on their websites or, you

27:35

know, online, I am saying tariff

27:37

surcharge or Trump tariff surcharge, right? To

27:39

kind of start getting consumers acclimated

27:41

to the idea that this is why

27:44

prices are going up. And you're

27:46

going to start seeing that across the

27:48

economy in many of the areas

27:50

that are hit the hardest. And

27:52

the other thing that's already been

27:54

happening, I think that we unearthed,

27:56

is you already have certain large

27:59

companies that for months have just

28:01

been saying, we know that the

28:03

Trump plan for tariffs is going

28:05

to hit us, be that auto

28:07

tariffs or other areas. And we're

28:09

going to start already pricing in

28:11

increases, anticipating costs that will go

28:13

up from disruptions. But not at

28:16

some exact formula level, we just

28:18

know that we need to protect

28:20

our margins moving forward because we're

28:22

going to have to deal with

28:24

disruptions. That's at the very basic

28:26

level. What we'll then see is

28:28

more sophisticated technological means to really

28:31

just juice markups. Well, we will

28:33

have to leave it there today.

28:35

I want to thank you both

28:37

for your continued work and investigative

28:39

reporting. It is so incredibly important,

28:41

folks. The piece is up now

28:43

at the lever. How Trump is

28:45

helping price gougers exploit his tariffs.

28:48

Katya Schwenke and Luke Goldstein, thank

28:50

you both so much for making

28:52

time for the new abnormal. And

28:54

thank you for your work. Yeah.

28:56

Thanks for having us on. Yeah.

28:58

Thanks so much, Danielle. This is

29:00

great. Hope you

29:03

enjoyed checking out this episode of The

29:05

New Abnormal. We're back every Tuesday, Friday,

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