0:01

Welcome to Fast Company's

0:03

The New Way We Work,

0:05

where we take listeners

0:07

on a journey through

0:09

the changing landscape of

0:11

our work lives and

0:13

explain exactly what we

0:15

need to build the

0:17

future we want. I'm

0:20

Fast Company Deputy Editor

0:22

Kathleen Davis. This

0:26

week I have some more

0:28

advice for my weekly pressing

0:30

questions advice column on fastcompany.com.

0:33

How do I get a promotion? Here's

0:35

my advice. There are a lot of variables

0:37

that go into getting a promotion

0:39

that don't have much to do with

0:41

how good you are at your job.

0:44

Things like timing and budget. And while

0:46

you don't have control over everything, here's

0:48

the best way to set yourself up

0:50

for success. First, make sure you're working

0:53

above your job description. This might seem

0:55

both obvious and unfair, but in order

0:57

to get promoted, it's not enough to

1:00

just do a good job at the

1:02

basic requirements of your role. You have

1:04

to prove that you're already doing work

1:06

that's above and beyond what's expected of

1:09

you, which helps you make the case

1:11

for a higher title and more responsibilities.

1:13

Second, work smart, not just hard. As

1:16

you've probably noticed, work isn't always a

1:18

meritocracy. It's not enough to just keep

1:20

your head down and do good work

1:23

and hope you'll get noticed. You need

1:25

to make sure that you're attached to

1:27

visible success. If the idea of tooting

1:30

your own horn makes your skin crawl,

1:32

you don't need to be showy. Just

1:34

try something like giving your boss regular

1:36

progress reports on your accomplishments. My third

1:39

tip, make a clear and compelling case

1:41

for why you need a promotion. Of

1:43

course you want a promotion for more

1:46

money, a better title, and overall career

1:48

advancement. Those things are implied, so don't

1:50

say them. Frame your push for promotion

1:52

as a win-win for everyone. Explain why

1:55

the new title and role already reflects

1:57

the work you've been doing. See my

1:59

first... point about going above and

2:01

beyond your job description. The promotion

2:03

just formalizes it and makes things

2:05

more fair. And whatever you do,

2:07

do not use the promotion request

2:10

as a bargaining chip. If you

2:12

say you'll leave if you don't

2:14

get a promotion, at best it

2:16

will sour your relationship with your

2:18

manager and at worst they'll call

2:20

your bluff. Number four, get the

2:22

timing right. Sometimes when you ask

2:24

is almost as important as how

2:26

you ask. Consider when promotions are

2:28

typically given and how your company

2:30

is doing financially. There are always

2:32

exceptions and you don't want to

2:35

wait forever, but asking at the

2:37

right time increases your chances of

2:39

getting a yes. And finally, one

2:41

last bonus tip, learn to work

2:43

with AI. As I've been talking

2:45

about in the last several episodes,

2:47

artificial intelligence is changing the way

2:49

we all work. So if you're

2:51

looking to get ahead and get

2:53

promoted, it'll be in your favor

2:55

to learn what your company is

2:57

already doing with AI and what

3:00

could be in store for the

3:02

future. Maybe that means doing some

3:04

extra research or taking a continuing

3:06

education class or professional seminar. The

3:08

bottom line, stay curious and be

3:10

aware of how AI is impacting

3:12

your job. Check

3:17

out the show notes for this

3:19

episode for more advice on how

3:22

to get a promotion and keep

3:24

listening for a great past episode

3:26

on one of the biggest problems

3:29

with work. I'll be back next

3:31

week with the final installment of

3:33

our series on how AI is

3:35

changing your job. Make sure to

3:38

subscribe wherever you get your podcast

3:40

so you don't miss it. And

3:42

thanks this week to Henry Chaudenay,

3:45

Cody Nelson and Joshua Christensen for

3:47

producing and Nicholas Torres for mixing.

3:49

And now? Here's our episode that

3:52

first aired in April 2024 called

3:54

Hard Work Isn't Always Rewarded. The

3:56

problem with work is Hard work

3:58

isn't rewarded. I've got a pretty

4:01

good gut sense for people's strengths

4:03

and weaknesses. Whether they have that

4:05

certain something to make it in

4:07

journalism. Stuff business. A lot of

4:09

stress. Definitely. And I have to

4:11

tell you. You don't got it.

4:13

Now, guts can be wrong. Mine's

4:15

been wrong before, but not often.

4:18

I thought I was doing okay.

4:20

I just don't... I think you

4:22

really have the drive to put

4:24

yourself out there, to be honest.

4:26

To get a story, to dig.

4:28

I mean, just now, in this

4:30

meeting, I encouraged everyone to say

4:32

whatever they wanted. You said nothing.

4:35

I wasn't sure if I should.

4:37

Exactly. I mean, you saw Harry.

4:39

He jumped right into the fire.

4:41

You didn't. But Harry's not an

4:43

intern. Doesn't matter. I've always done

4:45

what's asked of me. See, the

4:47

thing is in the real world.

4:49

It's not always good enough to

4:51

do just what's asked of you.

4:54

But I thought I was in

4:56

a really good rhythm with everyone

4:58

here. I'm not saying you're not

5:00

competent, you're smart, you're terrific at

5:02

anticipating needs. Actually, you make a

5:04

great assistant. Oh. I'm sorry. It's

5:06

not my pleasure to disappoint someone

5:08

like you. But it's healthy. I

5:11

don't know any other way. I

5:13

don't be, yes. I should get

5:15

back. Hey, listen. I know this

5:17

is rough, but, uh... I may

5:19

have just done you a big

5:21

favor. Oh. Okay. Thanks. Thanks. For

5:28

those of you who aren't Gilmore

5:30

Girl Superfans like me, that was

5:32

Rory being told by her boss

5:34

that despite her hard work, he

5:36

didn't think she would make a

5:38

good reporter. Rory had excelled in

5:41

high school earning a scholarship to

5:43

Yale, but during her first job

5:45

experience, traits like organization and research

5:47

didn't matter as much as risk-taking

5:49

and curiosity. Not to spoil it

5:51

for you, but she doesn't take

5:53

this first bout of rejection very

5:56

well. So,

6:00

This is Fast Company's

6:02

The New Way We

6:04

Work, where we take

6:06

listeners on a journey

6:08

through the changing landscape

6:10

of our work lives

6:12

and explain exactly what

6:14

we need to build

6:16

the future we want.

6:18

I'm Fast Company Deputy

6:20

Editor Kathleen Davis. The

6:24

theme of this season is The

6:27

Problem with Work. And one of

6:29

the secret problems with work is

6:31

that hard work alone isn't enough

6:33

to get ahead. It's a hard

6:36

wake-up call for those of us,

6:38

myself included, who, like Rory Gilmore,

6:40

spent our school years working hard

6:42

to get all A's, doing all

6:45

the things we were told were

6:47

key to a successful life. But

6:49

the truth is that work and

6:51

the rest of the quote-unquote real

6:54

world, isn't a meritocracy. The most

6:56

hardworking, even the smartest or most

6:58

talented people, aren't always the ones

7:00

who end up in power. So

7:03

what are the unspoken rules of

7:05

work? If hard work alone isn't

7:07

what matters, then what does? And

7:09

is there a way to shift

7:12

what we value and make things

7:14

more fair? To help me answer

7:16

those questions and more is Jill

7:18

Katz. She's the founder of Assemble

7:21

HR Consulting, a Talent Strategy and

7:23

Communications firm that focuses on culture

7:25

communication, conflict and change in the

7:28

workplace. Jill, thank you so much

7:30

for being here. Hi Kate, it's

7:32

so good to be here with

7:34

you. So let's start with breaking

7:37

down why people who work so

7:39

hard in school, for example, and

7:41

they get all A's, they're not

7:43

necessarily the ones that end up

7:46

doing so well at work. Well,

7:48

the fact is what we do

7:50

in school is really different from

7:52

what we do in work, right?

7:55

Kate, when we go to school,

7:57

we learn how to be great

7:59

test takers, great note takers, great

8:01

multitaskers, and we also learn to

8:04

be really good individual contributors. We're

8:06

in school for our own. success.

8:08

But school does not necessarily prepare

8:10

all of us to be great

8:13

leaders or team players. And so

8:15

not the same. We graduate from

8:17

school whatever level we matriculate to

8:19

and then suddenly we're out in

8:22

the world as adults and there's

8:24

an entirely new skill set that

8:26

we need to learn in order

8:28

to be successful. That's such a

8:31

great point that I'd never thought

8:33

of. You're in school for yourself.

8:35

You're in school to get your

8:37

own good grades. You're only responsible

8:40

for yourself. But in the workplace,

8:42

you're never only responsible for yourself.

8:44

It's the, you know, good of

8:47

the company, the benefit of the

8:49

company. You have to work as

8:51

a team. You know, it just

8:53

makes me think of like the

8:56

group, the good grade gets... the

8:58

good grade but does not work

9:00

in the workplace. So let's let's

9:02

talk about some of the traits

9:05

and behaviors that do get rewarded

9:07

at work. Well so it's interesting

9:09

the things that seem to be

9:11

rewarded at work are what we

9:14

call the visible work traits. And

9:16

they are often things that can

9:18

be measured. So that might be

9:20

completing a project or making a

9:23

presentation or being the person that

9:25

leads an initiative. If it can

9:27

be really seen clearly, if it

9:29

can be measured, and if it

9:32

is visible, it seems to be

9:34

rewarded. And I want to dig

9:36

into that a little bit more

9:38

because it's, you know, we're talking

9:41

about, you know, that meritocracy is

9:43

not necessarily true in the workplace.

9:45

I do feel like we've been

9:47

kind of told the wrong thing.

9:50

It's like, work hard and you'll

9:52

be rewarded. But what you're saying

9:54

and definitely rings true is that

9:56

it's the visible work. It's not

9:59

necessarily just like working hard. It's

10:01

making sure that people see that

10:03

you're working hard or think that

10:06

you're working hard maybe even if

10:08

you're working not so hard. Can

10:10

you talk a little bit about

10:12

maybe the like the personality traits,

10:15

the like self-promotion it seems like

10:17

that goes into success at work?

10:19

Sometimes it is seen that the

10:21

people who have the bigger personalities

10:24

or the louder personalities or people

10:26

that are more comfortable with self-promotion,

10:28

people that are more comfortable communicating

10:30

outward, the things that they're doing,

10:33

the people that are more naturally

10:35

put in charge of projects and

10:37

the people that are more comfortable

10:39

sort of beating their own chest.

10:42

And by the way, there's nothing

10:44

wrong with these traits. They do

10:46

not make for... bad people, negative

10:48

people in the workplace, there's a

10:51

real place in the workplace for

10:53

these people, but people who tend

10:55

to be more introverted or people

10:57

who tend to fall into more

11:00

caretaking tasks or roles tend to

11:02

be recognized less. Yeah, I want

11:04

to dig into that caretaking rules.

11:06

And you're right, you know, we

11:09

may paint it as this is

11:11

good and this is bad, but

11:13

yes, being a self advocate, you

11:15

know, it's I guess how you

11:18

phrase it, if you say self

11:20

promotional, it sounds kind of bad.

11:22

If you say a self advocate,

11:25

having that sort of personality, obviously

11:27

it gets rewarded at work, and

11:29

it's not necessarily bad. in the

11:31

office, but let's kind of dig

11:34

into that. What's the kind of

11:36

work that doesn't get rewarded? That

11:38

emotional, invisible work of the office,

11:40

which is essential too. So the

11:43

invisible work that doesn't get taken

11:45

as important or is not recognized

11:47

as often can sometimes be called

11:49

office housework. And my gosh, doesn't

11:52

that sound yucky? But accurate. Like

11:54

as soon as you say it,

11:56

you know, you kind of get

11:58

a feel for what that is.

12:01

But yeah, office housework. And if

12:03

you do the research on it,

12:05

you read that and you think,

12:07

my gosh, it's such a bummer

12:10

because the invisible work, in so

12:12

many cases, it's this overlooked, undervalued

12:14

work because it's not as easily

12:16

quantifiable. And although it's not as

12:19

quantifiable, in so many ways, you

12:21

could argue that it is the

12:23

most important work that gets done

12:25

in the workplace. And it can

12:28

be described in so many ways.

12:30

examples of what this invisible could

12:32

be conflict management, helping people to

12:34

get through hard situations. And as

12:37

any one of us knows, there

12:39

is conflict in the workplace every

12:41

day. In fact, conflict in the

12:44

workplace is important. You want there

12:46

to be good conflict in the

12:48

workplace because conflict, when managed properly,

12:50

creates innovation. This invisible work includes

12:53

skill building. It includes relationship building.

12:55

It includes mentorship, it includes the

12:57

empathy that we've been talking so

12:59

much about recently. There is a

13:02

great deal of this invisible work

13:04

that includes the work, the promotion,

13:06

the investment in. D-E-N-I, which has

13:08

become more and more of a

13:11

conversation lately, motivation and engagement of

13:13

employees. So everything that you think

13:15

of when you think about leading

13:17

others and creating the cultures that

13:20

we talk so much about is

13:22

considered invisible work. There is another

13:24

part of invisible work as well,

13:26

which is what is sometimes called

13:29

the administrative or operational side, which

13:31

is not sexy, Kate. No one

13:33

thinks this is the sexy work,

13:35

but it is a lot of

13:38

the stuff that makes people feel

13:40

good. So when you think about

13:42

the person on the team who

13:44

is collecting money. for somebody's birthday

13:47

gift or organizing files. There's someone

13:49

on my team who just took

13:51

about a week. reorganizing our entire

13:53

file system so that we can

13:56

better access things in a more

13:58

thoughtful way. That is a beautiful

14:00

example of invisible work and, oh

14:03

my gosh, is it going to

14:05

make a difference for us? And

14:07

so scheduling meetings, scheduling parties, working

14:09

on that type of stuff, that

14:12

is another really important part of

14:14

invisible work. There's so much invisible

14:16

work, right? There's the, as you

14:18

mentioned, the office housework, non-sexy administrative

14:21

stuff, which is just essential to

14:23

keep things running. Who takes the

14:25

notes in the meeting? Who, you

14:27

know, as you said, schedules the

14:30

meetings, who's in charge of like,

14:32

figures all of that stuff out,

14:34

is just assumed that they do

14:36

it, it's invisible because it helps

14:39

things run, and if it wasn't

14:41

there, things would fall apart. You

14:43

know, and that the household just

14:45

magically runs itself. But there's, you

14:48

know, there's that relationship bit, I

14:50

think is so interesting and so

14:52

important. And, you know, we just

14:54

had an episode about management and

14:57

what makes a good boss. And

14:59

the guest on that episode said

15:01

that when you're a manager, relationships

15:03

are 75% like the management part

15:06

is 75% and everything you're describing

15:08

is relationships. It's what keeps people.

15:10

at their job. If there's not

15:12

somebody that remembers your birthday or

15:15

sends you flowers when you have

15:17

a death in the family or

15:19

does, acknowledges your work anniversary, kind

15:22

of keeps that like makes you

15:24

feel good to work there, then

15:26

you'll probably leave. And so that

15:28

like relationship management is such an

15:31

important part, but isn't visible, isn't

15:33

like flashy, doesn't have a big

15:35

dollar amount. on it so it

15:37

kind of gets overlooked right it's

15:40

funny that you say that because

15:42

as i I thought about our

15:44

conversation today and prepared for it,

15:46

I thought about really sort of

15:49

the mantra of what we do

15:51

at assemble. And when we show

15:53

up to any of our meetings,

15:55

we wear t-shirts. And our t-shirts

15:58

say it's all about relationships. That's

16:00

actually our hashtag, and it is

16:02

what we believe to be the

16:04

foundation of what we do in

16:07

our business. Because amazingly, no matter

16:09

what happens in a business, no

16:11

matter what business a company is

16:13

in. It really is all about

16:16

relationships. When you find that relationships

16:18

are solid, you see more job

16:20

satisfaction, you see more accountability on

16:22

a team, you see more highly

16:25

engaged employees, you see better productivity

16:27

and ultimately better results in the

16:29

business. All of this has a

16:31

direct tie to relationships and amazingly,

16:34

this is invisible. And I don't

16:36

want to overlook that, you know,

16:38

the important piece that you mentioned

16:41

about DE&I, that's unfortunately a lot

16:43

of businesses are like, oh, that's

16:45

nice to have, you know, that's

16:47

so important to relationships. It's so

16:50

important to employee engagement. It's so

16:52

important to employee engagement. It's so

16:54

important to keeping people there and

16:56

keeping a diverse set of ideas

16:59

that then make your business more

17:01

successful. Like it's just this, you

17:03

know, like interconnected thing. And, you

17:05

know, the other thing that I

17:08

think that I think about when

17:10

we talk about relationships, when we

17:12

talk about relationships, relationships is It's

17:14

the only thing that AI can't

17:17

do, right? Like it's the thing

17:19

that's not going to, it's the

17:21

skill that you can't replace. You

17:23

couldn't say it better. We could

17:26

definitely have an entire podcast on

17:28

the DE&I aspect of this and

17:30

how important it is and how

17:32

in fact there is a disproportionate

17:35

impact on women and people of

17:37

color toward invisible work. And why

17:39

is that? It's probably due to...

17:41

gendered assumptions, expectations, social conditioning. And

17:44

there's so much to be said

17:46

there. But you are 100% right

17:48

that the only thing AI can

17:50

do, I think AI is ultimately

17:53

going to be able to bathe

17:55

the dog and do the dishes

17:57

and who knows what, maybe even

18:00

cut the grass, but it will

18:02

never have. empathy and it will

18:04

never be able to be your

18:06

mentor or show you that care

18:09

or be the one that's there

18:11

for you when you're working through

18:13

a personal challenge. And those things

18:15

will never be unimportant in the

18:18

world of work. I'm so glad

18:20

that you brought up the racial

18:22

and gender element to this because

18:24

that that is kind of I

18:27

think the elephant in the room

18:29

when we're talking about invisible work

18:31

when we talk about being overlooked

18:33

at work. There's two things that

18:36

I think about there. There's that,

18:38

the one, the kind of model

18:40

minority belief that racial minorities in

18:42

the workplace kind of have to

18:45

work twice as hard to get

18:47

half as much, you know, that

18:49

old adage. And then there's also

18:51

the gender element of it, which

18:54

everybody can instantly identify who gets

18:56

asked to take the notes in

18:58

the meeting, who's remembering the birthdays,

19:00

you know, nine times out of

19:03

10. Sometimes 10 times out of

19:05

10, it's women in the office.

19:07

It's interesting because I read that

19:10

studies show that girls tend to

19:12

do better at school, get better

19:14

grades in school than boys do,

19:16

because teachers often unintentionally reward students

19:19

for being quiet and neat. and

19:21

taking notes and all of that

19:23

sort of thing, which is behavior

19:25

that society kind of expects of

19:28

girls. So girls are kind of

19:30

conditioned in school to, you know,

19:32

the rewarded for that behavior. That's

19:34

classic quote-unquote girl behavior. And then

19:37

we get to work and that's

19:39

not the sort of behavior that's

19:41

rewarded. What are your thoughts on

19:43

kind of how how we're conditioning

19:46

girls in particular to then take

19:48

these roles that then end up

19:50

getting kind of overlooked at work?

19:52

That is an alarming, alarming fact.

19:55

That statistic bothers me as the

19:57

mother of a daughter because I

19:59

certainly don't want my daughter to

20:01

be raised, to be quiet. And

20:04

I do want her to be

20:06

neat. Let me say that. And

20:08

I'll tell you, that's not working

20:10

out so well. But to be

20:13

quiet and to be the one

20:15

to tidy up after others and

20:17

to be the one to take

20:19

notes for others. That's certainly not

20:22

what we should be. aiming for

20:24

in our school systems and saying

20:26

that we all need to be

20:29

thinking about, but it probably isn't

20:31

untrue. And it is the case.

20:33

that the studies are showing that

20:35

unquestionably there is a disproportionate amount

20:38

of women that are falling into

20:40

roles that are considered invisible work,

20:42

and conversely, it is men that

20:44

are in the roles that are

20:47

more well recognized, that are bigger

20:49

influencers, that are in more seen

20:51

roles. But what's also interesting on

20:53

the other side of that is

20:56

that in a recent study in

20:58

2021 of women in the workplace

21:00

done by McKinsey, they actually found

21:02

that women are the better leaders.

21:05

Women were the better students. Women

21:07

are growing up to be better

21:09

leaders. Women are seen as more

21:11

consistently. their employees, which isn't a

21:14

surprise. Women are championing D&I. Women

21:16

are more likely to invest. in

21:18

helping their employees. They're more likely

21:20

to spend time discussing life changes

21:23

and navigating careers. They're more likely

21:25

to be allies to women of

21:27

color, women of disabilities. And so

21:29

it is kind of interesting that

21:32

in some ways we are prepared.

21:34

caring women and we are disadvantageding

21:36

them growing up, but women are

21:38

becoming better leaders. Yeah, it's really

21:41

interesting. It's that, and we've covered

21:43

this a couple of different times

21:45

on the show, that What we

21:48

believe, we as a kind of

21:50

society, what we viewed leadership as,

21:52

is kind of what, you know,

21:54

we're saying when you're in school,

21:57

be a good student, get good

21:59

grades, and girls are like, okay,

22:01

this is what I'm supposed to

22:03

do, I'm supposed to be quiet,

22:06

and you know, the boys are

22:08

rambunctious, maybe, you know, and again,

22:10

this is generalizations, but, and then

22:12

once you get into the workplace,

22:15

it's like, charismatic and be able

22:17

to to kind of hold court

22:19

in a room that's now suddenly

22:21

rewarded but as we're talking as

22:24

we're hearing it's the relationship building

22:26

it's that empathy it's all it

22:28

is those like traditional skills that

22:30

that women are encouraged to have

22:33

which are reviewed as soft Right,

22:35

quote unquote soft and like not

22:37

as important and not as like

22:39

business critical, but it's really kind

22:42

of a rethinking of what we

22:44

value and what work is for.

22:46

Well, you're right. And we're not

22:48

really doing a good job in

22:51

business recognizing it because what's interesting

22:53

is in those studies, what I

22:55

learned is they said that 87%

22:57

of companies say that managers work

23:00

supporting employee well-being is critical. and

23:02

25% actually recognize it in reviews.

23:04

And so while everyone is saying,

23:07

wow, this is so important, we

23:09

want people to focus on leadership

23:11

development, when the rubber meets the

23:13

road, what we're reviewing people on,

23:16

what we're compensating people on, is

23:18

in fact the other. That really

23:20

speaks to I think about that

23:22

a lot of like the skills

23:25

versus you know the bias that

23:27

seeps into reviews that seeps into

23:29

interviews like oh they just seem

23:31

like more of a leader they

23:34

just seem like this like I

23:36

say I reward this, I say

23:38

I value this, and then the

23:40

last episode we talked about the

23:43

kind of self-fulfilling prophecy of if

23:45

you kind of keep promoting the

23:47

same person to be a leader,

23:49

then you keep believing that that's

23:52

what a leader looks like, and

23:54

you keep kind of filling that

23:56

mold. If you're a manager or

23:58

an executive and you're listening to

24:01

this, how can you start to

24:03

shift your approach to recognize the

24:05

other kinds of work and reward

24:07

that sort of work? an effort

24:10

because you're not looking at numbers

24:12

you're not seeing things on a

24:14

daily basis so the first thing

24:16

is to acknowledge it the first

24:19

thing is to really take the

24:21

time to be looking for it

24:23

and to make sure that it

24:26

matters to you and you can

24:28

start with verbal praise you can

24:30

start with public acknowledgement you can

24:32

start with written praise I always

24:35

like to tell people that everyone

24:37

likes to be recognized in a

24:39

different way. So one thing to

24:41

do is start by asking, say

24:44

to someone, Kate, how do you

24:46

like to be recognized? Because for

24:48

Kate, maybe a meeting in private

24:50

and saying to her, Kate, what

24:53

you're doing with your team means

24:55

the world to us. And that

24:57

might be more important to Kate,

24:59

but for Jill, being mentioned at

25:02

a town hall meeting might be

25:04

more important. And then it's about

25:06

valuing teamwork and taking the time

25:08

to really focus on teams, teams

25:11

around the organization that are excelling

25:13

and recognizing that there is a

25:15

leader of that team who is

25:17

making an impact. It's about focusing

25:20

on communication. It's about creating a

25:22

culture where people feel really comfortable

25:24

sharing their thoughts and concerns and

25:26

recognizing that those type of team

25:29

cultures make a big difference and

25:31

certainly differ from teams that are

25:33

not communicating that way. resources, it

25:35

is such recognition for people that

25:38

are delivering invisible work when you

25:40

come to them and offer resources

25:42

like flexible work arrangement, like money

25:45

toward ERGs, like counseling. And then

25:47

finally celebrating milestones. When you see

25:49

big wins for these groups, recognizing

25:51

them, calling them out, saying, look

25:54

what your group did or look

25:56

at what this important day is

25:58

that your group has been working

26:00

toward. Those are all ways to

26:03

start recognizing invisible work. I think

26:05

the recognition and acknowledgement and praise

26:07

part is so so essential because

26:09

I feel like there's this mindset

26:12

of like, well, your paycheck is

26:14

your reward. You know, you're just

26:16

like, why do I have to

26:18

praise you? Why do I? And

26:21

it's like, you made the point,

26:23

like everybody wants to be recognized

26:25

and it feels really awful to

26:27

to to toil invisibility, you know,

26:30

to not be acknowledged for what

26:32

you're doing. I wonder. to make

26:34

the tie back to like housework.

26:36

I think of Evredowski's fair play

26:39

and the, you know, for listeners

26:41

who don't know it, it's a

26:43

book about evening the workload at

26:45

home and she has this moment

26:48

where she's very frustrated that she's

26:50

doing everything and she just makes

26:52

a spreadsheet called the. I don't

26:54

know if I should swear, but

26:57

the stuff that I do, and

26:59

it was just like a long

27:01

list of all of the kind

27:04

of invisible work that she does

27:06

at home, I'm wondering if in

27:08

the office, you know, you mentioned

27:10

it's so important to recognize, I

27:13

wonder if there's a big gap

27:15

to overcome though of managers and

27:17

leadership not even knowing that this

27:19

work is happening and how this

27:22

work is happening, since it's invisible.

27:24

It's funny that you should mention

27:26

that that's actually a recommendation. So

27:28

what is something that you can

27:31

do to start noticing the invisible

27:33

work is to ask leaders to

27:35

make a list of all. all

27:37

the stuff that they do and

27:40

write all of it down and

27:42

start to assign a value to

27:44

it. And then look at what

27:46

everyone is doing, even write down

27:49

to ordering the birthday cars and

27:51

take a look at that list

27:53

and then really be thoughtful about

27:55

it, audit the pay disparities, take

27:58

a look at that and see

28:00

if there's a difference between gender,

28:02

between race. And then think about

28:04

consider paying people. based on their

28:07

participation in their committees or in

28:09

their ERGs, because sometimes you find

28:11

that people are spending a disproportionate

28:13

amount of time participating in really

28:16

important organizations or ERGs in the

28:18

organization that are really contributing value.

28:20

There are some people in the

28:23

organization that aren't participating outside of

28:25

their daily job whatsoever. And then

28:27

celebrating that work, even putting it

28:29

into organizational newsletters or company emails,

28:32

letting them know that this is

28:34

just as important to the company

28:36

culture as the person who closed

28:38

the last client deal. I love

28:41

the idea too of putting, you

28:43

know, it can be hard to

28:45

do, but putting some sort of

28:47

dollar amount on it, because as

28:50

you say, if you are the

28:52

type of person that closes a

28:54

big deal, that gets, you know,

28:56

obviously there's a dollar amount attached,

28:59

that gets, that's very visible, especially,

29:01

you know, you probably are the

29:03

type of person that would, uh,

29:05

tout that accomplishment on your own,

29:08

plus it will, you know, be

29:10

touted at town halls. But what

29:12

about the... You know, it's so

29:14

hard to, but it's so valuable

29:17

to put a dollar amount on

29:19

having an ERG and how that

29:21

makes employees more likely to stay

29:23

and what is the cost of

29:26

an employee leaving or, you know,

29:28

of having employees that feel more

29:30

valued and then they're more productive.

29:32

What's the cost? of having a

29:35

disengaged employee. Like those are harder

29:37

to put dollar amounts on and

29:39

so obviously that's kind of why

29:42

it doesn't happen, but putting a

29:44

dollar amount on it, it's a

29:46

great way to start to see

29:48

the invisible value. We do know

29:51

what the cost is of turnover

29:53

and so if we start to

29:55

think about people staying or going

29:57

and we start to think about

30:00

the fact that someone leaving is

30:02

time and a half their salary

30:04

and what it means to bring

30:06

someone on and that it can

30:09

take up to 12 months to

30:11

have someone be fully onboarded and

30:13

as effective as their predecessor. You're

30:15

talking about a lot of money.

30:18

Yeah. when you stop and say,

30:20

wow, think about that. And now

30:22

think about keeping that person in

30:24

their role where they're contributing above

30:27

and beyond. And think about that

30:29

person who is retaining these four

30:31

other people that work on their

30:33

team. And so even though you

30:36

can say they closed a $50,000

30:38

deal, you can start to put

30:40

numbers to it. They are philosophical

30:42

a bit, but you can sit

30:45

down and start putting hard numbers

30:47

on a piece of paper. To

30:49

that point and to the point

30:51

of, you know, we've been talking

30:54

a lot about the relationship building,

30:56

the relationship management, but there is

30:58

also just the keep my head

31:01

down and work hard and do

31:03

my job. sort of employee that's

31:05

you know and again as we

31:07

were talking about that's what we

31:10

have been told you're supposed to

31:12

do all through school that's what

31:14

gets rewarded all through school is

31:16

just not the above and beyond

31:19

but just the hard working like

31:21

this is my job and I'm

31:23

going to do my job and

31:25

I'm not going to like promote

31:28

myself a bunch I'm just going

31:30

to work hard and do my

31:32

job if you're that employee of

31:34

which there are a lot and

31:37

you feel like understandably undervalued at

31:39

work. What are some steps you

31:41

can take to kind of, I

31:43

don't know, raise your profile or

31:46

just even have that type of

31:48

more introverted head? down work noticed.

31:50

There are a few things that

31:52

you can do if you feel

31:55

undervalued and not recognized. The first

31:57

and most important thing is to

31:59

understand what value means to you.

32:01

How do you want to be

32:04

valued? So in our organization, we

32:06

have an activity called motivation for

32:08

engagement and we hang posters all

32:10

over the wall. We've got over

32:13

50 of them. There are over

32:15

50 different ways that people like

32:17

to be recognized, and they range

32:20

from more money to a new

32:22

certification to extra time with your

32:24

family to a trip to go

32:26

sit down in the president's office

32:29

and be recognized personally to being

32:31

mentioned in an email. And it's

32:33

amazing because when we think about

32:35

how people like to be recognized

32:38

and valued, for the most part,

32:40

Kate, we think about more money

32:42

or promotion. But there are hundreds

32:44

of ways that people like to

32:47

feel valued. And so the first

32:49

is for each of us to

32:51

really think about and identify how

32:53

we want to be valued and

32:56

what makes us feel valued. And

32:58

so even the person who wants

33:00

to put their head down and

33:02

work hard has a way that

33:05

they want to feel valued. It

33:07

might just be a private note

33:09

or it might be the... money

33:11

toward their own resource group, that

33:14

might mean so much to them.

33:16

So I think that's the first

33:18

thing. And then another thing that

33:20

person can do is seek feedback.

33:23

And feedback is so important. Ask

33:25

for feedback on your performance areas

33:27

for improvement. That's a great way

33:29

to know how your work is

33:32

being perceived. And if what you're

33:34

doing is in fact being recognized.

33:36

Another thing that's important for someone

33:39

is to network, build relationships within

33:41

the organization. And so the truth

33:43

is... is that the days of

33:45

just sitting at your desk with

33:48

your headphones on and just quietly

33:50

doing your work, they're not really

33:52

the most effective days anymore. The

33:54

most effective people in an organization

33:57

are ones that are building relationships,

33:59

but you can build them in

34:01

your own way. And so building

34:03

your network, cultivating positive relationships with

34:06

coworkers. is a great way to

34:08

gain visibility to the important things

34:10

that you're doing. And so it's

34:12

important to remember a lot of

34:15

people feel undervalued. Oftentimes, even the

34:17

people who are front and center

34:19

will report that they feel undervalued,

34:21

which might be a surprise. We

34:24

need to do the things and

34:26

understand what it is that makes

34:28

us feel valued in order to

34:30

gain the value. For the recognition

34:33

part, I just think about, we

34:35

had an episode last year about

34:37

what makes a good job, and

34:39

I kind of view it as

34:42

the, you know, there's several different

34:44

factors, and I always kind of

34:46

think of the like Maslow's, you

34:48

know, hierarchy of needs, and for

34:51

work, pay is kind of a

34:53

base one, right? Is like, if

34:55

you don't feel that you're being

34:58

paid fairly, kind of none of

35:00

the rest of it matters, meet

35:02

that one because you said everybody

35:04

wants pay. You're right, everybody wants

35:07

to be paid fairly. Then you

35:09

can kind of get into the

35:11

other of like, how do you

35:13

want to be recognized? How do

35:16

you want to be appreciated? Like

35:18

check those those sorts of boxes.

35:20

You know, when we talk about

35:22

doing hard, like keeping your head

35:25

down and doing hard work and,

35:27

you know, not kind of seeing

35:29

the A that you, you know,

35:31

that you got before when you

35:34

did what was required. There's an

35:36

element that we're kind of not

35:38

talking about talking about at work,

35:40

which is Going above and beyond

35:43

your job description is now kind

35:45

of what is expected, right? It's

35:47

not enough to just, my job

35:49

is to write and edit this

35:52

many articles a month. It's what

35:54

new ideas am I bringing? What

35:56

kind of innovation? There's, you know,

35:58

I think there's that part. that

36:01

we haven't talked about yet. That's

36:03

like reading between the lines of

36:05

what your job description is and

36:07

kind of going above and beyond

36:10

that. Can you talk about that

36:12

at all? Oh, I think that's

36:14

absolutely true. I think that even

36:17

when you look at a job

36:19

description today, it will say and

36:21

additional. It will list the things

36:23

that we're all supposed to do.

36:26

And then there is just the

36:28

understanding that you're expected to do

36:30

more. In fact, when you think

36:32

about most performance reviews today, one

36:35

through five, a three, is meets

36:37

expectation. Yes, I was just going

36:39

to say that. As ambitious people

36:41

at Fast Company, when we do

36:44

our performance reviews, there was a

36:46

lot of, why am I just

36:48

getting three's? I should be getting

36:50

five's and it's like, well, no,

36:53

five's are extremely exceeds expectations or

36:55

something. It's like, it's not enough

36:57

to just do your job. But

36:59

yeah, but yeah, go ahead. Yeah,

37:02

no, I mean, I think you

37:04

nailed it. I'm coaching a sea

37:06

level executive right now and that

37:08

person just got. a three on

37:11

their review and is talking to

37:13

me in our one-on-one conversations about

37:15

how how could they get a

37:17

three on their review. And so

37:20

it is really really interesting that

37:22

we do go through school and

37:24

we work as hard as we

37:26

can and we get that A.

37:29

And that A is our expectation.

37:31

The Aya in school is the

37:33

three in the workplace, which is

37:36

a really rude awakening. It is

37:38

such a regular and you can't

37:40

do better than the A. So

37:42

if you do everything that you're

37:45

expected to do, you get the

37:47

A. and then you get into

37:49

the workplace and when you do

37:51

everything you're expected to do you

37:54

get what essentially equates to a

37:56

C. It is a really really

37:58

confusing concept and so we're also

38:00

in in this world where there

38:03

is a pressure to do a

38:05

really really great comprehensive exhaustive job

38:07

and then do so much more

38:09

And in a lot of ways,

38:12

if you think about it, that's

38:14

where so much of this leadership

38:16

work becomes even more critical. It's

38:18

about managing the team, being there

38:21

for the team, showing empathy, having

38:23

a mentor, being part of an

38:25

ERG, all of that, sadly, can

38:27

be seen as above and beyond

38:30

when I think it should in

38:32

fact be an expectation. That's very

38:34

true. And I think that's maybe

38:36

a misconception is like, okay, I'm

38:39

just doing my job. But but

38:41

you're right, all of those other

38:43

things, those are not explicit in

38:45

your job description. Those are all

38:48

of the this invisible work that

38:50

we've been talking about is in

38:52

fact above and beyond your normal

38:55

job. And therefore, even even more

38:57

so, even another tick in the

38:59

column of why it should be

39:01

valued and why it should be

39:04

recognized. No doubt. I think you

39:06

know there's there's a part of

39:08

it where companies hearing this would

39:10

say but that's not us we

39:13

are a meritocracy. Companies you know

39:15

obviously believe that and and say

39:17

that they are a meritocracy. What

39:19

would you say to those companies

39:22

that tout it and believe it

39:24

but kind of aren't it? I

39:26

would say prove it. So I

39:28

mean as I said what we're

39:31

seeing is you know 87% of

39:33

companies are saying that they believe

39:35

managers work is critical, but only

39:37

25% are measuring it. Or for

39:40

example, 70% of companies said that

39:42

work promoting DE&I is very or

39:44

extremely critical, and 24% are measuring

39:46

it. So where and how is

39:49

that the meritocracy that they're talking

39:51

about? What we're measuring and what

39:53

we're rewarding is what is important

39:55

to the And so I really

39:58

do think it's important for organizations

40:00

to stand behind and measure and

40:02

reward what they say matters to

40:05

them. And I guess the kind

40:07

of underlying question. in there than

40:09

is if they say they're a

40:11

meritocracy, but they're not, who is

40:14

benefiting from that? Shareholders. Sadly, the

40:16

answer is shareholders. And I think

40:18

that is really the struggle here.

40:20

That's where this gets really, really

40:23

tricky because Sometimes the board is

40:25

spending more time looking to deliver

40:27

the numbers to the shareholders and

40:29

is focused a little bit less

40:32

on the culture of the organization.

40:34

And that's where leadership needs to

40:36

take a stand and think about

40:38

the fact that a better culture,

40:41

in fact, over time will produce

40:43

better numbers for a company. Yeah,

40:45

it kind of goes back to

40:47

the same drum that I've been

40:50

beating for a decade of, you

40:52

know, DE&I is not a nice

40:54

to have. It's like a good

40:56

for the bottom line, but it's

40:59

not fast. It's not fast. None

41:01

of this is overnight. And so

41:03

when when we're looking to deliver

41:05

overnight results, this is where... this

41:08

important stuff sometimes goes by the

41:10

wayside. It's the opposite of the

41:12

move fast and break things. It's

41:14

like move deliberately and build a

41:17

better workplace. Exactly. I wonder, is

41:19

this a uniquely American problem? Is

41:21

this a stem from our from

41:24

the beginning of this Puritans are

41:26

hard workers and we are, you

41:28

know, our founders are hard workers

41:30

and this is we get by

41:33

on our merit? Is this something

41:35

that is uniquely American or is

41:37

this kind of across a universal

41:39

of workplace culture? You know, it's

41:42

an interesting question and I'm not

41:44

sure that I can speak to

41:46

the universality of it, not being

41:48

an expert on other cultures, but

41:51

what does occur to me is

41:53

that as you go back in

41:55

our history, there is a huge

41:57

division between men's work and women's

42:00

work. There is no doubt that

42:02

the roles that men and women

42:04

were playing as you look back

42:06

on US history are what we're

42:09

seeing here in invisible work and

42:11

visible work. And throughout history, women

42:13

tend to be taking on the

42:15

caretaking. housework in earlier times and

42:18

now what we consider to be

42:20

office housework. And so is that

42:22

the American culture? You could argue,

42:24

yes, it is if we look

42:27

at it from that vantage point.

42:29

Yeah, for sure. Well, Jill, thank

42:31

you so much for being on

42:33

the show. There's a lot of,

42:36

I think a lot of food

42:38

for thought for people who maybe

42:40

have not thought about this before.

42:43

A lot of invisible work hopefully

42:45

now made visible. Thank you so

42:47

much. Kate, such a great conversation,

42:49

really appreciated and I absolutely agree.

42:52

The fact is the work that

42:54

is seen as invisible is so

42:56

important and if it wasn't happening,

42:58

there would not be successful teams

43:01

in business today. Yep, everything would

43:03

fall apart. No doubt. And

43:12

that's all for this episode. If you're

43:14

a new listener, be sure to subscribe

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episode, leave us a rating and review

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hear from you. Work is changing every

43:28

day. What's the most pressing issue on

43:30

your mind? Email us at Podcast company.com.

43:32

The New Way We Work is produced

43:35

by Julia Shoe, Avery Miles, Blake, and

43:37

Joshua Christensen with editing by Nicholas Torres.