0:00

This is the New

0:02

Yorker Radio Hour. A

0:04

co-production of WNYC

0:07

Studios and The

0:09

New Yorker. This is

0:11

Yorker New Yorker -production

0:13

of Hour. I'm

0:16

David Remnick. At the New is

0:18

the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm

0:20

David Remnick. a couple of At the New

0:22

Yorker Festival we couple of months

0:24

ago, we were joined by Burellis. Bareilles

0:26

broke out as a star in

0:28

pop music in the late aughts the

0:30

Grammy Awards to prove it, prove it

0:32

Which gone on to have a

0:34

very different sort of career writing

0:36

music for Broadway. for Broadway on the

0:38

one hand one is busy acting on

0:40

is and on television on on the

0:42

other, on she's busy as a

0:45

composer and a composer and a songwriter right now. She's

0:47

adapting Meg best -selling novel, novel the

0:49

for the stage, for the along with

0:51

the playwright, the playwright Sarah rule Sarah

0:53

Bareilles sat down to talk

0:55

with staff writer, with staff and

0:57

to play a little music,

0:59

too. to play a little music too.

1:02

do you write a song, Sarah? a song There

1:04

are very few times I can think

1:06

of where I sat down and something

1:08

just sort of showed up. I

1:10

really believe in this idea of

1:13

kind of idea of kind of, know, know,

1:15

the visit the the work.

1:17

at They reward the

1:19

person who creates. creates... ritual

1:22

or or routine around just showing

1:24

up and writing. I'm finding that

1:26

I'm in my and I'm 44, have

1:28

my and the have changed and the

1:30

process changes, but it's evolving. Reading

1:32

about your first record deal though

1:34

and how many co -writers they tried

1:36

to put you with you know,

1:38

there was a sense at the

1:41

beginning the where they didn't. where they

1:43

let you follow your own nose or your that

1:45

you could be on your own. And I

1:47

know that that was difficult. I know that how

1:49

did you feel like you had the confidence then

1:51

to sort of to I need to be

1:53

solo here? be solo here. wouldn't identify

1:55

it as confidence. it as I

1:57

think it was. it was... a

2:00

kind kind of desperation. I got I

2:02

got set up on all these

2:04

songwriting sort of dates of dates with

2:06

very successful songwriters who were writing songs

2:08

for Kelly Clarkson Kelly Clarkson of my a lot of

2:10

my sort of contemporaries. It just didn't

2:12

resonate. didn't, It it it felt like it didn't

2:14

matter if I was in the room

2:17

or not. I felt like they were just

2:19

writing songs and they were just trying

2:21

to find. songs and they sing

2:23

them trying to find people to sing

2:25

me songwriting to me has, I think

2:27

of anything more sacred. more sacred.

2:29

It's as as intimate as it gets, it

2:31

and it is. an illustration

2:33

illustration of my relationship with

2:36

God. like that's as as close as

2:38

I get to like, naked being

2:40

naked spiritually world. the world. idea so would

2:42

idea that I would sit in a

2:44

room and have somebody hand me a

2:46

sheet of paper that had like a

2:48

list of song titles, a lot of

2:50

them with like letters in the title,

2:53

which in too good for you. too good Like,

2:55

you. It's like a gross out of a joke.

2:57

I don't think God wants to say

2:59

that. of assumed that love song was of, I got,

3:01

I was in despair, actually, and my

3:03

manager at the time, have to do it

3:05

anymore. me and was like, okay, you don't have to

3:07

do it anymore. And I think this

3:09

is where my heart breaks for young artists

3:11

who don't realize you had the you had

3:14

the power to go home all along. Like,

3:16

I I didn't ever have to do any

3:18

of that. But do do think I grew

3:20

from the experience. I think people people sort

3:22

of assume that love song was written out

3:24

of that despair. out of that despair.

3:35

You know know, that song so

3:37

so defiant. was it I wonder, was

3:39

it written out of despair or was it written out of

3:41

the moment when you got through it and you were thinking, got

3:43

through on the other side of this? And, you know. the

3:46

you guys can shove it. and you a good

3:48

question, shove it. could shove it. I wish I

3:50

could have put that in there. have put that

3:52

in there. I think I think you're right,

3:54

that wasn't a moment of despair. despair. That

3:56

was more a moment of discovery. I

3:58

was I was listening. to the radio

4:00

and I was just like trying

4:02

to cop what I heard on

4:04

the radio, I was trying to

4:07

like mimic. I was like, oh,

4:09

it should sound something like this.

4:11

And I was so angry when

4:13

I caught myself in that line

4:15

of thinking. And I said a

4:17

prayer and I was like, please

4:19

let me just return to myself

4:21

somehow. Just remember why I'm doing

4:23

this, remember what I'm trying to

4:25

say. And it was a diary

4:27

entry. It's like... Head underwater and

4:29

you tell me to breathe easy

4:31

like it like this this time

4:33

is impossible You know, I don't

4:35

want to give you what you're

4:37

asking for I don't even know

4:39

if I knew what they what

4:41

I thought they were asking for

4:43

except that I knew they wanted

4:45

a song that that could go

4:47

on the radio I know you

4:49

grew up loving theater and getting

4:51

to work on waitress is your

4:54

grand return to your love your

4:56

early love of theater so maybe

4:58

we can start with your early

5:00

love of theater and and and

5:02

then clock up to waitress my

5:04

mom was a very prominent community

5:06

theater actress in Humboldt County where

5:08

I grew up and she did

5:10

tons and tons of shows at

5:12

our repertoire theater there and I

5:14

would go to the theater and

5:16

I went back not that long

5:18

ago and in my mind it

5:20

is like a palace and when

5:22

I went back I'm like oh

5:24

it's like a 99 seat theater

5:26

it's so small and perfect and

5:28

beautiful and it was the happiest

5:30

I ever was sitting in a

5:32

theater seat, and then the idea

5:34

that I could be a part

5:36

of productions was just like mind-blowing.

5:38

I did productions of Little Shop

5:40

of Horrors, I did Mystery of

5:43

Edwin Drewd, I did Charlotte's Web,

5:45

and I really thought I would

5:47

go into theater. And then I

5:49

started writing songs, and I moved

5:51

to LA to go to UCLA,

5:53

and then my music career just

5:55

sort of foregrounded itself, and I

5:57

got on that ride. being a

5:59

touring artist is like you get

6:01

on the ride and then you

6:03

come home and you write a

6:05

new record and then you get

6:07

right back on the ride and

6:09

I started to feel like I'm,

6:11

I'll hate this really, really soon.

6:13

Well, I took this month long,

6:15

Rumschbrena, in New York, and I

6:17

had a meeting with my brand

6:19

new theatrical agent, and he's like,

6:21

there are auditions for a show

6:23

called Into the Woods. And I

6:25

was like, I love that show.

6:27

Give me the audition, and... I

6:30

auditioned for Cinderella for the production

6:32

that was in the park, and

6:34

when I tell you I shit

6:36

the bed. I shit the bed

6:38

with fury. And I walked out

6:40

of that room and I was

6:42

like, there's not even like a

6:44

world where like, maybe that went,

6:46

oh, like it was so clear.

6:48

They were like, oh, I hope

6:50

you'll be okay after this. It

6:52

was so terrible and I was

6:54

so humbled by how little... I

6:56

knew about anything in this industry.

6:58

And ... got the opportunity

7:00

to sit down with Diane Paulus, who

7:02

was the director of waitress, and she

7:05

talked to me about this project. So

7:07

I thought I would go back to

7:09

theater as a performer, and then I

7:11

was like, oh, I don't know how

7:13

to do that. And then started writing

7:15

songs. So you're approached about waitress, Diane

7:18

Paulus, and you are having this wonderful

7:20

mine melt, you watch the Adrian Shelley

7:22

movie, and how do you approach this

7:24

project? I know the first song you

7:26

wrote for it was She used to

7:29

be mine. but she's kind.

7:31

She is lonely. Most of the time

7:33

she is all of this mixed up

7:35

and baked in a beautiful pie. She

7:37

is gone, but she used to be

7:40

mine. I was just trying the whole

7:42

time to just like act like I

7:44

knew what I was doing. I do

7:46

think I have some instincts around. It

7:49

became clear very quickly that I liked

7:51

being in these conversations. I liked the

7:53

puzzle. I liked the questioning of motivation.

7:55

And the collaboration was very new to

7:58

me. These songwriters that I got paired

8:00

with, I think for a long time,

8:02

made me very fearful of collaboration. When

8:04

it's the right kind of collaboration, it

8:07

can be incredible. You know, the phenomenon

8:09

of something being bigger than the sum

8:11

of its parts. Do you like the

8:13

workshop process for a new show? Because

8:16

I know you just had your workshop

8:18

for this, and then it's like you

8:20

have to go back and tear things

8:23

apart. Lose numbers, bring numbers in. I

8:25

mean, is that exciting to you? If

8:27

you can let go of the part

8:29

of you that needs things to be

8:32

finished quickly or perfect, or that you

8:34

know what anything is or means, if

8:36

you can let go of that part,

8:38

then it can be really fun. Do

8:41

you feel like working in the theater

8:43

sort of like reinvigorated your love of

8:45

the other side of the industry because

8:47

you were saying like it's the hamster

8:50

wheel, it's the hamster wheel, do you

8:52

feel like you felt revived? No. I

8:54

feel like working in the theater industry

8:56

only affirmed that I just felt like

8:59

I'd been at the wrong party my

9:01

whole. career. I just, I don't know

9:03

where I fit in the music industry.

9:05

People did not give two shits about

9:08

me until I wrote, until waitress was

9:10

like a musical and I was like,

9:12

you guys care about this show about

9:14

pie? But you didn't, like, nobody would

9:17

touch me with a 10 football. There's

9:19

so much competition in the music industry

9:21

that I don't, I just, I'm not

9:23

a competitive person. I don't understand it.

9:26

It's not that theater isn't competitive. There

9:28

is that kind of essence as well

9:30

in some ways. But everybody, there's just

9:32

sort of this feeling of like everybody's

9:35

sort of so happy

9:37

to be there. Like we

9:39

got a show show guys.

9:41

so grateful to have a paycheck.

9:44

gonna last. feeling. I would rather

9:46

be at that I would that

9:48

feeling. to I feeling.

9:51

would rather be than

9:53

I would rather go

9:55

to the or the

9:57

you know, the Emmys

10:00

or the Oscars. such

10:02

But music can

10:04

be such a bridge.

10:06

about know, I think

10:09

about how many

10:11

people I know that

10:13

feel so strongly

10:15

about the song song

10:18

for example. for I

10:20

mean, how I you

10:22

is music your way

10:24

of your of both

10:26

channeling your own own and all the

10:29

all the things you're still dealing

10:31

with and then trying to

10:33

connect? and then trying to was a song

10:35

I wrote from song I wrote from

10:37

extraordinarily brokenhearted place. place, but was 18

10:39

when I wrote that song. song,

10:41

And I thought, like, the the

10:43

world was ending. And that

10:45

song now gets to be

10:47

interpreted and reinterpreted for other people's

10:49

pain, even though I don't

10:51

carry that same pain anymore. My

10:54

hope is, as a songwriter, I

10:56

can work to articulate things

10:58

that that... you wouldn't quite know

11:00

how to say or other people feel like,

11:02

oh, quite I'm the only person who feels this.

11:04

And feel people she must feel it too, because it's

11:06

right there in the song. who

11:09

feels this and then

11:11

like wait, she must

11:13

feel it too because

11:15

it's right there in

11:17

the song. Here

11:23

I am,

11:26

and I

11:28

stand so

11:30

tall. I'm

11:32

just the way I

11:34

am supposed to be.

11:36

But you're on to

11:39

me, you're

11:41

me. me, and over

11:43

me. Oh, you love

11:45

me, you

11:47

loved me

11:49

because I'm

11:51

fragile. And

11:55

I thought that I

11:57

was strong. You

12:02

touch me

12:04

for a little

12:06

while while and all

12:08

my fragile

12:10

strength is gone

12:13

is gone. Send me

12:15

me free, I don't

12:18

me be

12:20

I don't wanna

12:23

fall another

12:25

moment into your

12:27

gravity Here

12:30

I am,

12:32

and I stand

12:34

so tall

12:36

And just the

12:38

way I

12:40

am supposed to

12:42

be be, you're

12:44

onto me, on

12:46

to me, all

12:48

over me here

12:50

on my knees as I try to

12:53

make my knees as

12:55

I try to

12:57

make you see That

12:59

you're everything I

13:01

think I need Here

13:04

on the ground That

13:06

you're neither friend nor oh,

13:08

I can't seem to

13:10

let you go The one

13:13

thing that I still

13:15

know Is that you're keeping

13:17

me thing

13:19

that I still know

13:21

is that you're

13:23

Sara Barela,

13:25

speaking with

13:27

staff writer me

13:29

More in

13:31

a moment.

13:37

This week's episode is sponsored by

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neon's film, Presence. Directed by Stephen

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are not Starring Lucy

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15:44

I wanted to talk about

15:46

a sentence from your book

15:48

that I wanted to sort

15:50

of hear what you think

15:52

about it now, where you

15:54

wrote, nothing makes me more

15:56

panicky and rage filled than

15:58

the worry that I've done

16:00

something in order to position

16:02

myself for business over art.

16:04

And I wonder where you

16:06

feel like the seasise... right

16:08

now between commerce and art,

16:10

especially as the music business

16:12

is ever changing, you know,

16:14

where, how are you fighting

16:16

the good fight for art?

16:18

I don't think art itself

16:20

is vulnerable. I think artists

16:22

are vulnerable. I watch a

16:25

lot of young artists get

16:27

popular really quickly because of

16:29

the way the mechanism functions

16:31

at this point. Like there

16:33

used to be more time.

16:35

The idea that, like, it

16:37

was a slow burn, and

16:39

there is something valuable about

16:41

it being a slow burn,

16:43

and I watch a lot

16:45

of these young artists freak

16:47

out, cancel big shows, and

16:49

I don't fault them for

16:51

this, I feel like the

16:53

exponential growth is more than

16:55

could possibly be metabolized by

16:57

an artist at that, you

16:59

know, you're playing 100 people

17:01

one day, and then two

17:03

months later, you're playing to

17:05

like... you know, 50,000 people.

17:07

It's not, it's not normal.

17:09

I think you have to

17:11

be really clear on why

17:13

are you making what you're

17:15

making. If it's to get

17:17

magazine covers or if it's

17:19

to get rich, I would

17:21

really encourage you to do

17:23

something else because art doesn't,

17:25

art doesn't have time for

17:27

that. Because I think creation

17:30

is a holy act. I

17:32

think it is, I think

17:34

it's sacred work, and I

17:36

think it's like ministry to

17:38

take care of the world

17:40

with making art. Well, I

17:42

know you've had the chance

17:44

to meet and perform with

17:46

many of your heroes and,

17:48

you know, Carol King, and

17:50

be mentored in the industry

17:52

a little bit by the

17:54

people that came before. You

17:56

know, you're in your 40s

17:58

now, we talked about that.

18:00

Do you feel a responsibility

18:02

to mentor younger artists at

18:04

this stage? I just feel

18:06

a responsibility to show up

18:08

authentically. Like I'm someone who

18:10

I'm aging naturally, and I

18:12

might change my mind about

18:14

that, but I'm like, what

18:16

does it look like for

18:18

me to just be, like,

18:20

to not? try to hide

18:22

the person that I am

18:24

turning into. I'm not trying

18:26

to piss anybody off by

18:28

getting wrinkles on my forehead.

18:30

I'm just, this is what

18:33

it looks like when you're

18:35

lucky enough to grow up

18:37

and lucky enough to get

18:39

to age. And so I

18:41

feel like that's the thing

18:43

I feel responsibility to is

18:45

to keep trying to show

18:47

up authentically and I'm not

18:49

always going to get it

18:51

right and it's going to

18:53

piss people off sometimes. It

18:55

really matters to me. Songwriter

18:58

and performer Sarah Borellis.

19:00

She spoke with the

19:02

New Yorker's Rachel Sime.

19:04

I'm David Remnick and

19:06

that's our program for

19:08

today. I want to

19:10

close the program and

19:12

begin the New Year

19:14

by thanking everyone at

19:16

the Radio Hour and

19:18

at the New Yorker.

19:20

And thank you for

19:22

listening and a happy

19:24

New Year. It's

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terrible, keep going. The New

19:38

Yorker Radio Hour is a

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co-production of WNYC Studios and

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The New Yorker. Our theme

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music was composed and performed

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by Merrill Garbus of tune

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yards. Okay, so this is

19:52

my theory. This is my

19:54

theory. No one can like

19:56

be tough when they're whistling

19:58

like that. You were

20:01

were pretty good, You you were

20:03

pretty good. This episode episode was produced

20:05

by Max Bolton, Adam Howard, David

20:07

Krasnau, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell,

20:09

Jared Paul, and and Ursula With

20:11

with guidance from Emily

20:13

Boteen, and assistance from

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Michael May, David David

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Alex Barshz, Victor and Alejandra

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Deckett. Decett. The Yorker Radio

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