0:00

LinkedIn Presents.

0:03

I'm Rufus Griskem

0:05

and this is the

0:08

next big idea. Today,

0:10

the five types of

0:13

wealth. How

0:35

many times will you see your

0:38

parents before they die? If you have

0:40

the good fortune of still

0:42

having parents in your life, this

0:44

may be among the most

0:47

painful exercises in simple arithmetic

0:49

that you can imagine. My

0:51

parents just turned 80. If the

0:53

actuarial tables prevail and I

0:55

don't change my habits, I

0:57

may only see them another

0:59

dozen times. To think about this,

1:02

to say it out loud, breaks my

1:04

heart. And yet we live in a

1:06

finite world. If we look at

1:08

the fineness of our lives directly,

1:10

we can choose to make changes.

1:12

When my guest today, Sahel Bloom,

1:14

did the math on how many

1:17

times he would see his parents,

1:19

he did something unusual. He quit

1:21

his high-powered job in private equity

1:23

and moved across the country to

1:25

be closer to his family. Now,

1:27

of course, it's easy to say,

1:29

prioritize the people you love. Money

1:32

doesn't matter. It's all about purpose.

1:34

But it's obviously more complicated than

1:36

that for most of us. Money does

1:38

matter. It's just not everything. The

1:41

problem, Sahel tells us in his

1:43

new book, The Five Types of

1:45

Wealth, a transformative guide to design

1:47

your dream life, is that money

1:50

is so easy to measure, and

1:52

it's all too often perceived to

1:54

be a stand-in for status, which

1:56

we tend to think will lead

1:58

to connection. Because we can measure

2:01

money, we have... on it to

2:03

a fault. The solution, according to

2:05

Sawhill, is to learn to measure

2:07

and thereby prioritize the other four

2:10

types of wealth, social, mental, physical,

2:12

and time wealth. If we can

2:14

do this, we can make informed

2:16

decisions on a daily basis that

2:19

actually will lead to happiness and

2:21

fulfillment. And more time with our

2:23

parents and the other people we

2:25

love if we choose to make

2:27

it so. Sawhill

2:45

Bloom, welcome to the next big

2:47

idea. Thank you so much for

2:49

having me. It's a thrill to

2:51

be here. Sawhill, you were in

2:53

2020, living a life that looked

2:55

perfect from the outside. But as

2:57

I understand it, it felt less

2:59

than perfect on the inside. What

3:01

would we have seen if we

3:03

met you in 2020? I would

3:05

say from the outside looking in...

3:08

I was doing all of the

3:10

things that would characterize winning the

3:12

game in our modern culture. I

3:14

had the nice sounding job title,

3:16

you know, the house, a car,

3:18

like all of the trappings that

3:20

we grow so accustomed to celebrating

3:22

and admiring. from the outside looking

3:24

in, it was the peak. Things

3:26

were great. I was like at

3:28

the top of this mountain, and

3:30

you would say I was winning

3:32

the game. And internally, I had

3:34

started to have this sensation that

3:36

if that was what winning felt

3:38

like, I had to be playing

3:40

the wrong game. My relationships, my

3:42

health, mental, and physical, my time,

3:44

all of these other things had

3:46

started to show cracks and really

3:48

deteriorate over the three, four, five

3:50

years leading up to that while

3:52

I was kind of chasing and

3:54

winning in all of these surface

3:56

ways that we, you know, that

3:58

we do celebrate as a society.

4:00

And so it was this very,

4:02

very interesting tension and juxtaposition that

4:05

ended up being the thing that

4:07

sparked this entire journey that I'm

4:09

on today. You graduated from Stanford,

4:11

you went into private equity, for

4:13

some period of time, you were

4:15

probably fully bought in, I would

4:17

just say that for the first

4:19

30 years of my life, I

4:21

was a pretty deeply insecure person.

4:23

And that is a tough thing

4:25

to admit publicly and talk about

4:27

and write about, but it's very

4:29

true in my case. I had

4:31

from a young age... started telling

4:33

myself this story that I wasn't

4:35

very smart. I have an older

4:37

sister who's extremely high achieving academically.

4:39

I have parents who are very

4:41

brilliant and expected a lot of

4:43

us academically. And so my sister

4:45

was sort of achieving the things

4:47

that we were supposed to and

4:49

I started convincing myself that I

4:51

wasn't on her level that I

4:53

wasn't smart like that. And no

4:55

matter how much my parents told

4:57

me that wasn't true, no matter

4:59

how much evidence there was that

5:02

it wasn't true, that story that

5:04

you tell yourself is so powerful

5:06

in how it determines and creates

5:08

your reality. Humans are storytelling creatures.

5:10

The narrative fallacy is the tendency

5:12

to take information and evidence and

5:14

put it into the story that

5:16

you already have. And so if

5:18

you tell yourself that you're not

5:20

smart, I guarantee you will find

5:22

every bit of evidence in the

5:24

world to confirm that belief. And

5:26

you will ignore every single piece

5:28

of evidence that would refute it.

5:30

And I did that over a

5:32

long period of time. And what

5:34

it did was it cemented in

5:36

me this feeling, this insecurity, that

5:38

meant that I needed to chase

5:40

other things, external affirmations, if you

5:42

will, that were going to fill

5:44

me internally. So you have this

5:46

insecurity that kind of creates this

5:48

like internal void. problem is you

5:50

start seeking all of these external

5:52

solutions to the internal problem. And

5:54

it took me 30 years to

5:56

realize that you can't solve an

5:59

internal problem with an external solution.

6:01

And I think in a lot

6:03

of ways I was walking down

6:05

that path where this insecurity that

6:07

I had created meant that I

6:09

was chasing all of the things

6:11

that were going to get me

6:13

those paths on the back. And

6:15

as a society, the things that

6:17

are going to get us those

6:19

paths on the back are money,

6:21

status, you know, material things. And

6:23

so I got more and more

6:25

laser folk. on the accumulation of

6:27

those things as being the path

6:29

to me feeling good about who

6:31

I was as a person. And

6:33

as I took my first job,

6:35

I took the job that I

6:37

thought was gonna get me that.

6:39

As I got more and more

6:41

down that path, I got more

6:43

and more narrowly focused on this

6:45

one thing being the only thing

6:47

that mattered. And unfortunately what happens

6:49

is, if you get so narrowly

6:51

focused on the one thing, It's

6:54

very easy to lose sight completely

6:56

of everything else. You can win

6:58

this one battle, but lose the

7:00

much bigger picture war. It's the

7:02

Pyrrhic victory, the battle won, but

7:04

the war lost. And I was

7:06

marching down that path, and more

7:08

and more steadily marching down that

7:10

path as those years progressed in

7:12

my career. I find your writing

7:14

and commentary about your relationship with

7:16

your sister in those years to

7:18

be really powerful because I think

7:20

that I think it's really very

7:22

common actually, right? I think so

7:24

many siblings and even, you know,

7:26

friends have these loving but at

7:28

the same time competitive relationships that

7:30

drive in security. You talk about

7:32

actually eventually having the strength to

7:34

say to your sister, I'm sorry,

7:36

this was... This is what was

7:38

going on in my head. I

7:40

haven't been a connected and affectionate

7:42

brother. The strength that took for

7:44

you to be able to see

7:46

that, say it out loud to

7:48

your sister, say it out loud

7:51

to the world, I think that's

7:53

a real service. Would you agree

7:55

that this is not uncommon? Yeah,

7:57

I have told that. story, you

7:59

know, I write about it for

8:01

the first time in the book

8:03

and the message there so that people

8:05

understand it is, you know, because of

8:07

this dynamic, my own insecurity and the

8:09

fact that my sister was achieving the

8:12

things that our family really valued, that

8:14

I didn't feel I was capable of

8:16

those, I created this sort of competitive

8:18

and resentful relationship with my sister. She's

8:20

four years older than me. We were

8:23

never really in the same stage of

8:25

life and... I was resentful of her

8:27

for achieving the things that I thought

8:29

I wasn't capable of. She was resentful

8:31

of me because she thought that my

8:33

parents were taking it too easy on

8:35

me. And what it did was there

8:38

was never like the blow-up moment. It

8:40

was just the like little chips over

8:42

time that fundamentally by the time

8:44

we were 30, we basically didn't

8:46

have a relationship. We didn't have

8:48

like an outwardly tense relationship, but

8:50

we just didn't talk. And I can

8:53

pinpoint the exact moment this all

8:55

changed. and my whole family came

8:57

down to see us and to

8:59

welcome him home. And my sister

9:01

had had her first child 11

9:03

months before, and we took a

9:05

picture. And my sister and I

9:07

are in the photo, and I'm

9:09

holding my son, and she's holding

9:11

her son. And I looked over at

9:13

her, and it still makes me

9:16

emotional thinking about this moment,

9:18

because I looked over at her, and

9:20

it was like for the first time

9:22

in my life I could truly see

9:24

her. that there was no more veil or

9:27

this resentment or this dynamic, this tension

9:29

that I had built up and created.

9:31

It was like I was meeting her

9:33

for the first time. And in the

9:35

aftermath of that, I felt pulled and

9:37

called to open up to her and

9:40

talk to her about this insecurity that

9:42

I had had, the fact that it

9:44

had manifest in this way, and she

9:46

opened up to me in response, this

9:48

vulnerability. And the blossoming of our relationship in

9:51

the aftermath of just being able to

9:53

open up and have that hard conversation

9:55

has been one of the most beautiful

9:57

things of the last three, four years

9:59

of my life. And it was

10:01

a reminder of a really important thing,

10:03

which is that sometimes relationships blossom in

10:05

a new season of life for no

10:08

apparent reason. You can't predict it. You

10:10

have no idea why, but you are

10:12

going to have a deep loving relationship

10:14

with someone that you might not have

10:17

even met yet. And that to me

10:19

was, I mean, it really was a

10:21

beautiful case study in exactly that. Yeah,

10:24

yeah, yeah. And siblings, however different they

10:26

may be or whatever baggage we might

10:28

have from our past. are the only

10:30

people in the world with whom we

10:33

share a very specific experience with. I

10:35

keep, I say this, I have three

10:37

teenage boys and I say to them

10:40

like, you may drive each other bananas

10:42

right now, but you're going to share

10:44

this wonderful commonality in having to deal

10:46

with everything that's frustrating about being our

10:49

children and this pathway you haven't through

10:51

your life. But let's let's take the

10:53

listeners back to this moment in your

10:56

life. where it's what is it 2021.

10:58

We were living the glamorous life in

11:00

California, fancy car, fancy house, friends with

11:02

lots of powerful people. And what happens?

11:05

What changed in your life to cause

11:07

you to to make a fundamental change?

11:09

I went out for a drink with

11:12

an old friend and we sat down

11:14

and he asked how I was doing.

11:16

And at first I gave him kind

11:18

of the standard response. I said, I'm

11:21

good, busy. And he looked at me

11:23

and sort of looked through me. and

11:25

wanted more and I opened up and

11:28

said that it had started to get

11:30

difficult living so far away from my

11:32

parents on the East Coast that I

11:34

had started to notice for the first

11:37

time they were slowing down they were

11:39

getting older they weren't going to be

11:41

around forever and he asked how old

11:44

they were and I said mid-60s and

11:46

he asked how often I saw them

11:48

and I admitted that it had gotten

11:50

to the point where we were seeing

11:53

them once a year and he just

11:55

looked at me and said okay so

11:57

you're going to see your parents 15

11:59

more times before they're times before they

12:02

die. And I just remember feeling like

12:04

I'd been punched in the gut. I

12:06

mean the idea that... the amount of

12:09

time you have left with the people

12:11

that you care about most in the

12:13

world. Is that finite and countable? That

12:15

you can literally put it onto a

12:18

few hands. That just shook me to

12:20

the core. And in that moment, I

12:22

realized that if something didn't change, we

12:25

were going to end up in a

12:27

place where we didn't want to be.

12:29

And so the next day I went

12:31

home and had a conversation with my

12:34

wife, a challenging and candid conversation about

12:36

what we wanted to... the our center,

12:38

what we really viewed as our true

12:41

north in life. And we made a

12:43

dramatic decision, which was to leave California.

12:45

Within 45 days, I had left my

12:47

job. We had sold our house in

12:50

California, and we had moved 3,000 miles

12:52

to the East Coast to live closer

12:54

to both of our sets of parents.

12:57

And in that one decision, there was

12:59

a very powerful realization, which was you

13:01

are in much more control of your

13:03

time than you think. Because that number

13:06

15 more times before my parents were

13:08

gone, in that one decision that we

13:10

took, expanded into the hundreds. I mean,

13:13

I see my parents multiple times a

13:15

month now. They're a huge part of

13:17

my son, their grandson's life. We had

13:19

taken an action and literally created time,

13:22

created moments for the things that we

13:24

truly cared about. And that was the

13:26

spark. that changed everything. It was that

13:29

one little piece of math that really

13:31

was the catalyst that changed everything. I

13:33

love that. And then I believe you

13:35

and your wife who'd been struggling to

13:38

conceive a child shortly after moving, conceived

13:40

a child, and that's such a powerful

13:42

experience, isn't it? I mean, just the,

13:44

you know, my wife and I had

13:47

a miscarriage before our first child and

13:49

another miscarriage between our first and second.

13:51

And it's something people don't talk about.

13:54

And it's a deeply, deeply heartbreaking and

13:56

powerful experience, isn't it? I cannot say

13:58

enough about this because it is one

14:00

of those topics that people tend to

14:03

suffer with in silence, infertility, miscarriages, etc.

14:05

And in particular, men don't talk about

14:07

it. We as a culture assume the

14:10

woman is at fault when infertility is

14:12

an issue and men will never talk

14:14

about it. It's viewed as like anti-masculine.

14:16

You know, if you say you're, you

14:19

know, having struggles with fertility, it's like,

14:21

oh, you're not a man, you're not

14:23

an alpha. And so people don't talk

14:26

about it. And what happens when people

14:28

don't talk about things is that there's

14:30

a lot of people out there who

14:32

are suffering with it that feel like

14:35

they're alone, that feel like they're suffering

14:37

in silence. And I felt that way.

14:39

I know that feeling. The feeling that

14:42

every single month, you have this big

14:44

buildup into this one moment, and then

14:46

this terrible letdown, this devastating letdown, until

14:48

the next month comes around, and then

14:51

it happens again, and for two years,

14:53

that was where we were. I mean

14:55

we were in this perpetualual cycle of

14:58

disappointment. It was me. I was not

15:00

in the right place for any of

15:02

these things. I mean, I was drinking

15:04

six, seven nights a week. My stress

15:07

levels were really high. There are a

15:09

lot of scientific findings that show that

15:11

that impacts fertility. And I know that

15:14

it was me for one particular reason,

15:16

which is we made this big change,

15:18

within a few weeks of getting back

15:20

to the East Coast, making this big

15:23

shift, we found out that my wife

15:25

was pregnant naturally. After two years. And

15:27

I am not a particularly religious person.

15:29

But if there was one moment in

15:32

my life where I looked up and

15:34

just felt like God had winked at

15:36

us, that was it. That when your

15:39

life comes into alignment, everything falls into

15:41

place as it should. And the birth

15:43

of our son and the joy and

15:45

the challenges and the wrestling with things

15:48

that that has brought, that... Fundamentally changed

15:50

everything about how I view life how

15:52

I view the world how I view

15:55

the meaning of enough all of these

15:57

things these ideas that are shared that

15:59

I right about are a ripple effect

16:01

off of that one blessing. One

16:04

nuance, I think, to this question

16:06

of the journey we all take

16:08

in developing the confidence to live

16:10

our lives for the right reasons

16:13

based on our internal

16:15

objectives opposed to some

16:17

external scorecard. There's a

16:20

complicated relationship here because

16:22

your insecurities can be

16:24

rocket fuel to drive... hard

16:26

work and to achieve things and that

16:28

achievement creates a certain amount of strength

16:30

and confidence and that strength and confidence

16:32

could make it possible to overcome your

16:34

security so I wonder how you think

16:37

about about the complexity of that like

16:39

do you think there was a utility

16:41

to that first decade of your life

16:43

or that that was an important learning

16:45

process for you what you achieved the

16:47

discipline that you put in place to

16:49

to accomplish what you did in that

16:51

in that first chapter. I think

16:53

what you're referring to in broad

16:55

strokes is just generally speaking this

16:57

idea that your life has seasons

17:00

and what you're prioritizing

17:02

and really leaning into and focusing

17:04

on during any one season can

17:06

and should change. And so that

17:08

early part of your life, you

17:10

know, your 20s, 30s, leaning into

17:12

your career, leaning into building a

17:15

financial foundation. That's a very important

17:17

season for a lot of people

17:19

that has a lot of utility

17:21

and is actually probably advisable to

17:23

lean into those things because it

17:25

creates a foundation of money, networks,

17:27

knowledge, wisdom, experience, all these things

17:29

that the hard work and that

17:31

your drive and discipline really create

17:34

that you can compound off of for the

17:36

long term. The struggle and the mindset shift

17:38

that I really want people to think about

17:40

is the traditional wisdom says that All of

17:42

these areas of your life exist on these

17:44

on-off switches. So if you're going to lean

17:46

into making money in your career and your

17:48

finances, everything else gets shut off. You turn

17:50

off your family and friends, you turn off

17:52

your health, you turn off your mental health,

17:54

your purpose, all these other things. I'm just

17:56

going to lean into this one thing. And

17:58

the problem with that... mindset is that

18:00

for a lot of these areas of

18:03

life, if they're turned off for too

18:05

long, you can never turn them back

18:07

on. If you do nothing for your

18:09

physical health in your 20s, 30s, and

18:12

40s, it is going to be very

18:14

difficult to come back from that in

18:16

your 50s, 60s, 70s. If you don't

18:18

invest in your relationships in your 20s,

18:21

30s, and 40s, they won't be there

18:23

for you in your 50s and 60s.

18:25

All of these areas of life need

18:27

to exist on dimmer switches. Which means

18:29

you can lean heavily into the one

18:32

area that you're really focused on, but

18:34

you're not going to turn the other

18:36

areas off. You're going to have them

18:38

down low. Which is still a positive

18:41

because anything above zero compounds. Anything above

18:43

zero. Any tiny action stacks positively in

18:45

your life. Doing a 15-minute walk on

18:47

a daily basis is better than doing

18:49

nothing. Sending the one text to the

18:52

person to tell them you're thinking about

18:54

them. Calling your mom on the ride

18:56

home from work. Planning the one trip

18:58

with your old college friends rather than

19:01

just allowing it to slip. Those tiny

19:03

actions compound positively. They're better than doing

19:05

nothing. But smart, ambitious people are the

19:07

worst at allowing optimal to get in

19:10

the way of beneficial. We allow the

19:12

optimal to get in front of our

19:14

ability to do the beneficial thing. So

19:16

we say, oh, I don't have an

19:18

hour to work out, so I'm just

19:21

going to do nothing. I don't have

19:23

two hours for deep work, so I'm

19:25

going to do nothing. I don't have

19:27

a full trip to go see my

19:30

parents, so I'm not going to call.

19:32

But that is a terrible mindset. That

19:34

is the on-off switch mindset that we

19:36

need to flip to this dimmer switch.

19:39

Yeah. Yeah, I love that. I love

19:41

that. And that's a good segue, I

19:43

think, to the broad thesis of your

19:45

book that there's not one type of

19:47

wealth, but rather five, the title of

19:50

your book, five types of wealth, time

19:52

wealth, social wealth, mental wealth, physical wealth,

19:54

and financial wealth. What's wrong with the

19:56

way that most of us think about

19:59

wealth? Our scoreboard is fundamentally broken, or

20:01

at least incomplete. The way that we

20:03

have always traditionally measured ourselves as individuals

20:05

has been money. And that is because

20:08

money is so measurable. Peter Drucker, the

20:10

management theorist, has this famous quote, what

20:12

gets measured gets managed. It's the idea

20:14

that the thing that you can measure

20:16

ends up being the thing that you

20:19

hone in on, the thing that you

20:21

myopically focus on and optimize around. And

20:23

unfortunately... What you find is that because

20:25

money is so measurable, it becomes the

20:28

thing that everyone tries to optimize their

20:30

entire life around. And while it is

20:32

a part of building a wealthy life,

20:34

it is only one part. Money isn't

20:36

nothing. It simply can't be the only

20:39

thing. And unfortunately for a lot of

20:41

people... We don't recognize that until it's

20:43

too late. So you march down the

20:45

money path, you think you're winning the

20:48

game just like I did, and you

20:50

wake up and you're 60 or 70

20:52

years old and you have three ex-wives

20:54

and four kids who don't talk to

20:57

you and you're 50 pounds overweight. And

20:59

you might have made a hundred million

21:01

dollars and people are patting you on

21:03

the back saying you won the game.

21:05

But you have to ask yourself in

21:08

that moment, is that really a game

21:10

that I wanted to win? And so

21:12

the entire thesis of the book is,

21:14

we need to measure for the much

21:17

bigger war, the war of building a

21:19

truly fulfilling, comprehensively fulfilling life, and then

21:21

you can decide. Then you are armed

21:23

with the information with the full measurement

21:26

picture so that you can decide What

21:28

do I want to lean into during

21:30

this season of life? What am I

21:32

going to pull back on? What do

21:34

I want to lean into in the

21:37

next season? What am I going to

21:39

pull back on? You can measure for

21:41

the full picture So that then you

21:43

can make decisions based on the full

21:46

picture rather than on the one thing

21:48

I love that importance of measurement. That

21:50

was really a new idea for me.

21:52

And I think as we talk about

21:54

these other forms of wealth, we can

21:57

talk about how we can more effectively

21:59

measure those other forms of wealth, right,

22:01

of which I think is such a

22:03

great insight. And I think of course,

22:06

as you say, as a culture, we're

22:08

so... surrounded by immersed in a story

22:10

world of status, which is attached to

22:12

wealth. And you talk about sort of

22:15

discovering that status turns out not to

22:17

be something that can be bought. Do

22:19

you want to speak a little to

22:21

the difference between earned status and bought

22:23

status? I love that you're asking this

22:26

because it's one of my favorite ideas

22:28

from the book and I feel like

22:30

it's gotten overlooked in a lot of

22:32

conversations around it. This concept is that

22:35

status is not in and of itself

22:37

a bad thing. It gets demonized and

22:39

we're like, oh, when you're told that

22:41

you're pursuing status, people like kind of

22:44

look down on that. And status is

22:46

actually a fundamentally very useful thing. It

22:48

allows us to kind of like operate

22:50

in hierarchies and function as a society.

22:52

The challenge is that The way that

22:55

people seek to acquire and accumulate status

22:57

is a bit broken. Status is fundamentally

22:59

about earning the lasting respect and admiration

23:01

from people that you care about. What

23:04

you want is to feel like the

23:06

people that you care about really respect

23:08

and admire you that they hold you

23:10

up as a beacon. And the way

23:13

that most people try to do that.

23:15

is they try to buy things that

23:17

they think are going to confer that

23:19

status upon them. So they buy the

23:21

fancy car, the fancy watch, the house,

23:24

the club membership, the all of those

23:26

things are attempts at buying that respect

23:28

and admiration. And C.S. Lewis has this

23:30

beautiful short essay related to this called

23:33

The Inner Ring. where he talks about

23:35

the fact that all of those things

23:37

sort of have this inner ring psychology

23:39

where you are looking, you're standing outside

23:41

the club, and you see that there's

23:44

like a VIP entrance, that's the inner

23:46

ring, and you want to get into

23:48

that. But then you get into that,

23:50

and you get into that, and you're

23:53

in the club, and you notice that

23:55

there's like a velvet roped-off area, that

23:57

for even more special people, and then

23:59

you just want to be there, and

24:02

then you want to get to get

24:04

to get to the back to the

24:06

back room, to the back room, and

24:08

eventually you're gonna have nothing left and

24:10

there's just emptiness. And that really is

24:13

the pursuit of those acquired status symbols.

24:15

They do not confer upon us the

24:17

lasting respect and admiration that we think.

24:19

Having a whole bunch of things and

24:22

money does not confer upon you status.

24:24

Otherwise, lottery winners would be respected and

24:26

admired by everyone. Oh, I want a

24:28

billion dollars in the lottery. No, that

24:31

doesn't work because it matters how you

24:33

got it. People care about how you

24:35

got it. Someone is going to be

24:37

respected and admired for building something that's

24:39

worth a billion dollars versus just winning

24:42

a billion dollars. So this is the

24:44

concept where it comes in and how

24:46

I articulate it between bought status, the

24:48

things that you can buy. and earned

24:51

status, the things that you have to

24:53

earn that take a long time, that

24:55

is building the company of value, that

24:57

is the healthy fit body, that is

24:59

the meaningful strong relationships, those are things

25:02

that you cannot buy, they must be

25:04

earned. Absolutely, yeah. But meanwhile, though, there

25:06

is this sort of subtlety of nuance

25:08

to it as you as you allow,

25:11

which is that it seems to be

25:13

we almost have a cultural... dishonesty around

25:15

the topic of money because people say

25:17

out loud money doesn't make you happy

25:20

and think internally money is actually really

25:22

really important and the truth is nuanced

25:24

right I mean that that making some

25:26

amount of money like we had Scott

25:28

Galloway on the show he's very direct

25:31

about this like there is utility to

25:33

money and part of that utility is

25:35

it buys time it makes it possible

25:37

to own your own time so if

25:40

we put away the the shibbleers, the

25:42

symbols of wealth, the status symbols, and

25:44

focus on the real utility of what

25:46

money can do for us. It seems

25:49

to me that it can help in

25:51

the process of thoughtfully pursuing the other

25:53

forms of wealth and helping other people

25:55

and being engaged in the right way.

25:57

Is that how you see it? Yeah,

26:00

another way of saying that is Money

26:02

is a tool but not the goal.

26:04

And I would say that changes over

26:06

time. So anyone that tells you that

26:09

money doesn't buy happiness has not reviewed

26:11

the research on money and happiness. Money

26:13

directly buys happiness in the early days.

26:15

It very clearly correlates with happiness in

26:18

the early days. It very clearly correlates

26:20

with happiness as you come up the

26:22

early days of the income curve. I

26:24

mean, it reduces fundamental burdens and stresses.

26:26

It allows you to afford basic necessities,

26:29

experiences with the people that you love,

26:31

it allows you to do. That creates

26:33

happiness. The problem is that the patterning

26:35

that gets created in your mind in

26:38

those early days is that we ring

26:40

the money bell. and we get the

26:42

incremental happiness. And that creates a pattern

26:44

that that is going to continue in

26:46

perpetuity. It does not continue in perpetuity

26:49

in the same way that it does

26:51

in those early days. So if you

26:53

keep chasing it, thinking it will, if

26:55

you keep chasing it as the goal,

26:58

thinking that it will, you will be

27:00

disappointed and you will find yourself running

27:02

off the cliff. At some point, once

27:04

you get through those early days, money

27:07

needs to be reframed as much more

27:09

of the tool to... build and acquire

27:11

and do these other things, these other

27:13

types of wealth, then as an end

27:15

goal in and of itself. Going back

27:18

to your comment about the seasons of

27:20

life and the argument for embracing what

27:22

each season of your life offers, and

27:24

that perhaps I was having three teenage

27:27

boys, I have said to them that,

27:29

hey, money is not going to be

27:31

the gratifying. piece of your life that

27:33

will solve all of your problems, but

27:36

it is useful. And if you're going

27:38

to have, let's say, a succession of

27:40

careers, which is possible today, right? You

27:42

can, let's say you want to write

27:44

poetry, and you also would like to

27:47

build a business that solves problems for

27:49

a lot of people, it may make

27:51

sense to build the business that will

27:53

solve problems for a lot of people

27:56

first, and then write poetry later, if

27:58

you're going to choose a secret, if

28:00

you're going to. I would say if

28:02

I had to boil it down to

28:04

a section of your book, the title

28:07

of which was seven pieces of career

28:09

advice, which is fantastic. What's your advice

28:11

for young people who want to build

28:14

a successful career? I would say

28:16

if I had to boil it down

28:18

to a single piece of advice, it

28:20

would be that the golden rule

28:22

for financial success is to

28:24

focus on creating value.

28:26

We overcomplicate what it is

28:29

to make money. You get all these

28:31

like crazy complicated guides, all these different

28:33

things, like you have to do this,

28:35

you have to do this, here's the

28:37

way to get rich, all this stuff.

28:39

Fundamentally, making money is about creating a

28:41

whole bunch of value for other people

28:44

and then capturing a small portion of

28:46

that value that you create. All you

28:48

have to think about. is how can

28:50

I create immense value for everyone that

28:52

I come in contact with? If you

28:54

do that, you will make a lot

28:56

of money. I guarantee it.

28:58

There's no way that you

29:01

can create tons and tons

29:03

of value and not receive

29:05

some value in return. And

29:08

what that comes down to

29:10

creating those solutions. At all times, you

29:12

need to be working on or thinking about

29:15

one of those three things. You need to

29:17

be identifying problems, meaning looking around you and

29:19

seeing what are the problems that people are

29:21

experiencing. If you work in a nine to

29:24

five job, look at what problems your boss

29:26

has. Look at what problems your colleagues have.

29:28

Look at what problems the customers have. Identify

29:30

a bunch of problems. Create solutions to those

29:32

problems. And then scale those solutions, meaning allow

29:35

them to be scalable so that they can

29:37

reach more and more people with the same

29:39

unit of effort. The more scalable the solution,

29:41

the more value you'll create, the more money

29:44

that you will ultimately make. But if you

29:46

obfuscate all of that and you make it

29:48

too complicated, you lose sight of the main

29:50

thing, which is just create value, receive value.

29:53

That is the fundamental golden rule here.

29:55

I love that. In my own experience,

29:57

because I'm building company number four number

29:59

four now, companies I built, two of

30:02

them were not financially successful. The third

30:04

one was, we sold the business to

30:06

Disney. And we learned a lot of

30:08

things with the first two businesses, and

30:10

we learned that we had to be

30:13

more systematically intentional about building value for

30:15

other people. I mean, on the one

30:17

hand, we think of sort of very

30:19

successful business people as potentially being, you

30:22

know, greedy and self-focused, and like a

30:24

poet or artist as being other focused.

30:26

to some degree the opposite can be

30:28

true, right? You can't be successful in

30:31

business generally without being other focus to

30:33

some degree, without focusing on how can

30:35

I create value for other people? Yeah,

30:37

I think that's exactly right. It also

30:40

is the pathway to a lot more

30:42

happiness. We sort of know that, that

30:44

like acting in the service of others

30:46

is... a significantly more happiness-inducing path than

30:49

focusing internally and just focusing on yourself

30:51

selfishly. I get reached out to by

30:53

a lot of young people who are

30:55

feeling stuck, feeling lost, working in a

30:57

nine to five job and not seeing

31:00

the progression that they want. And my

31:02

question always is, are you in the

31:04

top 10% at your job? Like, are

31:06

you performing at a top 10% level?

31:09

It's very rare that... The requirement to

31:11

perform at a top 10% level is

31:13

intelligence or talent Most of the time

31:15

it's just about effort and energy and

31:18

attitude to be in the top 10%

31:20

You just have to do a little

31:22

bit more you have to care a

31:24

little bit more than other people and

31:27

that's maybe not fun You maybe have

31:29

to sacrifice some time you have to

31:31

you know sleep a little less like

31:33

there going to be sacrifices to do

31:36

that but if you want to achieve

31:38

extraordinary outcomes you have to be willing

31:40

to do extraordinary things on the input

31:42

side and That is what it comes

31:44

down to. If you can be in

31:47

the top 10% at every single job

31:49

that you do, you will make a

31:51

lot of money over the course of

31:53

your career. I am never worried about

31:56

someone who can consistently do that. In

31:58

your seven pieces of career advice. I

32:00

wish I'd known starting out. One of

32:02

them is swallow the frog, which I

32:05

think is a reference to a Mark

32:07

Twain quote here, which you have in

32:09

the book. If it's your job to

32:11

eat a frog, it's best to do

32:14

it first thing in the morning. And

32:16

if it's your job to eat two

32:18

frogs, it's best to eat the biggest

32:20

one first. Can you expand on this?

32:22

What's the notion of swallowing the frog?

32:25

I think this was the single best

32:27

piece of advice I got early in

32:29

my career, who he said. Look at

32:31

your boss, identify things that your boss

32:34

hates doing, take them off his plate

32:36

or her plate, and do them. If

32:38

you can do that... You create enormous

32:40

momentum early in your career because you

32:43

become valuable, you are creating things of

32:45

value for your boss, for the person

32:47

that is going to make the decisions

32:49

about your career. And it's a very

32:52

easy way to think about creating value,

32:54

because you can see what your boss

32:56

is getting annoyed by, the things that

32:58

are coming up that are creating frustration,

33:01

that is swallowing the frog for your

33:03

boss, the thing that they don't want

33:05

to do, you do it yourself, and

33:07

you take it off their plate. I

33:09

hope my teenage boys are listening, when

33:12

in doubts follow the frog. And sometimes

33:14

the frog is doing the dishes. So

33:16

getting into time wealth, you have a

33:18

great comment you tend to make about

33:21

Warren Buffett and the attraction of trading

33:23

places with a man who has $130

33:25

billion. Can you share that? I often

33:27

ask young people who come to me,

33:30

would you trade lives with Warren Buffett?

33:32

He's worth $130 billion. He has access

33:34

to anyone in the world. He flies

33:36

around on a Boeing business yet. He

33:39

reads and learns for a living. But

33:41

you wouldn't trade lives with him. Simply

33:43

because he is 95 years old. There's

33:45

no way you would agree to trade

33:47

the amount of time that you have

33:50

left for all of the money that

33:52

he has. And on the flip side,

33:54

he would do anything to be in

33:56

your shoes. give up every single dollar

33:59

that he has to be 25 again,

34:01

to be 30 again. And so in

34:03

that question and in that articulation, what

34:05

you're recognizing is that your time has

34:08

quite literally incalculable value. And yet, on

34:10

a daily basis, are you really living

34:12

that way? Are you really acknowledging the

34:14

fact that time is your most precious,

34:17

most valuable asset? No, probably not. You're

34:19

probably sitting around, scrolling on this thing,

34:21

comparing yourself to others, worrying or stressing

34:23

about silly things, putting your time into

34:26

things that don't really matter. All of

34:28

this stuff is missing the big picture

34:30

point, which is that your time is

34:32

really the most precious and valuable thing

34:34

that you have. And actually Warren Buffett

34:37

himself... said that he would trade places

34:39

happily with the younger person in a

34:41

2020 commencement address at the University of

34:43

Nebraska. And I would say this to

34:46

this current year's class. I would love

34:48

to trade places with that avium. When

34:50

you say the value of time is

34:52

incalculable, well in this Warren Buffett example,

34:55

it is calculable in the sense that

34:57

it's worth $130 billion to Warren Buffett

34:59

to have an extra, you know, 60

35:01

80 years of life. That is... a

35:04

powerful thing to realize that it's just

35:06

deeply precious. What's your advice for people

35:08

about how they can go about building

35:10

time wealth? Yeah, I think the big

35:13

challenge here is that there is a

35:15

fundamental misunderstanding, which is a lot of

35:17

people think that there is a simple

35:19

equation, which is that money equals freedom.

35:21

They think that those two are the

35:24

same thing. So money equals freedom. That's

35:26

not true. Money does not equal freedom.

35:28

Thoughtfully used money. can create some freedom,

35:30

but money can also just be something

35:33

that keeps you a slave, that keeps

35:35

you on a treadmill to need to

35:37

make more and more money. I have

35:39

plenty of friends who make more money

35:42

than I could possibly know what to

35:44

do with, who are on the treadmill

35:46

of making that much money. They spend

35:48

just as much, they can't leave the

35:51

job that they hate because they don't

35:53

know what they'll do. they leave and

35:55

don't have that same salary and that

35:57

same bonus. That is not freedom. They

35:59

can make $10 million a year, but

36:02

that's not freedom. The thing that for

36:04

a lot of people creates more time

36:06

wealth in their life is really identifying

36:08

energy flows. And what I mean by

36:11

that is identifying the things that are

36:13

actually creating energy versus draining energy in

36:15

your life. Because your outcomes follow your

36:17

energy. Your outcomes follow your interests. The

36:20

things that you were pulled towards naturally

36:22

tend to be the things where you'll

36:24

create the 10 or 100x outcomes in

36:26

your life that allow you to step

36:29

off these treadments, like get you into

36:31

those places where you have the freedom

36:33

to choose, which is what time wealth

36:35

is about. It's the freedom to choose

36:38

how you spend your time, where you

36:40

deploy it, when you trade it for

36:42

other things. You need to identify your

36:44

energy before you can do that. A

36:46

friend of mine said to me years

36:49

ago, follow the energy. What gives you

36:51

energy? And it's just always stuck with

36:53

me and resonated. And you suggest something

36:55

very specific, which is to create an

36:58

energy calendar. The way that you operationalize

37:00

this is very simple, which is at

37:02

the end of the day on Monday.

37:04

Look at your calendar from the day

37:07

and color code things according to whether

37:09

they created energy, meaning you felt lifted

37:11

up by it, you felt pulled into

37:13

the thing during or after, mark it

37:16

green, if it was neutral, mark it

37:18

yellow, and if it drained your energy,

37:20

if you felt physically drained from it,

37:22

mark it red. Do that for a

37:25

week. At the end of the week,

37:27

zoom out on the weekend and look

37:29

at the calendar, the colors. And you

37:31

will get a very clear visual sense.

37:33

for the types of activities that create

37:36

energy versus drain energy from your life.

37:38

Now what you have with that information

37:40

is a roadmap. The types of things

37:42

that you're going to try to be

37:45

leaning into and the types of things

37:47

that you're going to try to be

37:49

delegating, deleting, or leaning away from in

37:51

your life. Because the goal is not

37:54

to eliminate all the red. That's probably

37:56

never going to happen. It's a pipe

37:58

dream. It's a pipe dream. The goal

38:00

is to have the highest ratio of

38:03

green to red in your life. If

38:05

you can work towards a world where

38:07

more of your calendar is green than

38:09

red, or if you can increase that

38:11

ratio, you will feel so much better

38:14

and your outcomes will really improve. And

38:16

I'll give you a simple example. I

38:18

did this for the first time when

38:20

I was still working in finance. I

38:23

was working 80 plus hour weeks. Very

38:25

much a job where I would have

38:27

said I'm not in control. I did

38:29

this and what I identified was that

38:32

phone calls and zoom meetings and zoom

38:34

meetings were the single biggest energy trainer

38:36

in my life. But I had tons

38:38

of them on my calendar. But what

38:41

I noticed from doing it was that

38:43

walking calls, doing those calls on a

38:45

walk, was actually energy creating. Rather than

38:47

sitting at my desk doing the phone

38:50

call, being out on a walk, doing

38:52

it, I felt more present, I felt

38:54

more engaged, I felt more open, they

38:56

were much better. So I took half

38:58

of my phone calls and turned them

39:01

to walking calls. I would just go

39:03

out on a walk. I felt a

39:05

dramatic impact right away. Way more present

39:07

on the phone calls, the outcomes of

39:10

those calls improved because I was more

39:12

energized, I was more focused and present

39:14

on them. And my life felt way

39:16

better, very, very quickly, from this tiny

39:19

intervention, from just asking the question, is

39:21

there a way that I can take

39:23

a tiny tweak to the way that

39:25

I'm engaging with my weeks that will

39:28

improve my life? Raised the sales, raised

39:30

the sales! Captain, an unidentified ship is

39:32

approaching, over. Roger, wait, is that an

39:34

enterprise sales solution? Reach sales professionals, not

39:36

professional sailors. With LinkedIn ads, you can

39:39

target the right people by industry, job

39:41

title, and more. We'll even give you

39:43

a $100 credit on your next campaign.

39:45

Get started today at linkedin.com/Markiner. Terms and

39:48

Conditions Apply. Have

39:50

you ever considered writing a book

39:52

or maybe starting a podcast, launching

39:54

a newsletter or building an audience

39:56

on social media? If so, there's

39:58

something we've been... quietly building at

40:00

the next Big Idea Club for

40:02

months now that we just launched.

40:04

And it may be pretty exciting

40:06

for you. It's called Author Insider.

40:08

It's a place where successful writers

40:10

and industry heavy weights are coming

40:12

together to share what they've learned

40:14

about how to build audience and

40:17

how to make money. Our first

40:19

video interview and case study is

40:21

with Gretchen Rubin of the Happiest

40:23

Project Fame. We've got Will Store

40:25

and Michael Lewis on how to

40:27

tell captivating stories. We'll be sharing

40:29

soon a conversation with Daniel Pink

40:31

on how the media landscape is

40:33

changing and Susan Kane on building

40:35

thriving communities on sub stack. And

40:37

we'll have a live Q&A with

40:39

Stephen Johnson, who's the editorial director

40:41

of notebook LM and extraordinary writer,

40:43

on how to use AI to

40:45

write faster and better and better.

40:47

This is just the beginning. Join

40:49

us. Let's supercharge our careers as

40:51

writers and influencers. Just search for

40:54

author-insider on substack. That's author-insider from

40:56

the Next Big Idea Club. Let's

40:58

talk about social wealth. This strikes

41:00

me as kind of the big

41:02

one. It strikes me as maybe

41:04

the single most important form of

41:06

wealth. Do you see it that

41:08

way? Do you see it that

41:10

way? Do you see it that

41:12

way? Do you see it that?

41:14

Do you see it that way?

41:16

I do think that social wealth

41:18

has this characteristic that it is

41:20

the one type of wealth that

41:22

if you do not have it,

41:24

it is very difficult to enjoy

41:26

any of the other types of

41:29

wealth. No one dreams of being

41:31

on a private jet by themselves.

41:33

You know, what good is being

41:35

healthy and physically fit if you

41:37

can't go on a walk or

41:39

a hike with someone that you

41:41

love. So many of these other

41:43

things are made great, are made

41:45

textured and meaningful when they are

41:47

done with other people. People are

41:49

really what, at the end of

41:51

the day, are life-giving for us.

41:53

And we actually know this scientifically.

41:55

There is clear scientific evidence that

41:57

the strength of your relationships is

41:59

the single greatest fact. in determining

42:01

how well you age. The Harvard

42:04

study of adult development, you know,

42:06

over the course of 85 plus

42:08

years, they followed 2,000 plus people

42:10

and found that the single greatest

42:12

predictor of physical health at age

42:14

80 was relationship satisfaction at age

42:16

50. It wasn't your blood pressure

42:18

or cholesterol or how your smoking

42:20

or drinking habits were, it was

42:22

how you felt about your relationships

42:24

that determined your... aging outcomes. And

42:26

so we know that investments in

42:28

relationships are probably the single most

42:30

important investment that you can

42:33

make. And yet, they are the first thing

42:35

that fall by the wayside when we get busy

42:37

in life. It's the first thing that

42:39

you stop doing is texting the friend

42:41

or calling your mom or getting together

42:44

for coffee with your sibling or scheduling

42:46

that group trip. Relationships are the first

42:48

thing that we sacrifice. And part of

42:51

it comes from... this on-off switch

42:53

mindset and needing to get

42:55

back to the idea that

42:57

anything above zero compounds that

42:59

a tiny investment in your

43:01

relationships compounds just as well

43:03

as any financial investment

43:05

that you can make. Well I would

43:07

also throw out that relationships end up

43:10

being the key elements in developing many

43:12

of these other forms of wealth right

43:14

that if you if you surround yourself

43:17

with ambitious successful people who

43:19

you love and admire That's

43:21

likely to lead to financial

43:23

success if that's your objective.

43:25

If you surround yourself with

43:28

curious, honest, intellectually rigorous people,

43:30

you're likely to build mental wealth, right?

43:32

I mean, it seems to me that

43:35

the ways that we choose to

43:37

interact with other humans is really

43:39

critical to all these paths. The

43:41

way I've always said it is... You

43:43

are often told that you should focus

43:46

on the journey and not the destination.

43:48

That's like the cliche phrasing that people

43:50

use. Focus on the journey, not the

43:52

destination. I actually disagree. I think you need

43:54

to focus on the people. It's the company

43:57

along the way. Because when you

43:59

focus on surround... yourself with incredible

44:01

inspiring, positive sum, kind, genuine, authentic people,

44:03

you end up on the best journeys

44:05

and you have the best destinations. It

44:08

just happens and I can't explain why

44:10

but it just does. And so if

44:12

you focus there and focus your energy

44:15

there, the best things in all of

44:17

these other areas of wealth start to

44:19

come into your life. And you, Sahel,

44:22

have done this. really effectively. I mean,

44:24

I met you a few months ago

44:26

at a retreat with Susan Kane and

44:28

Adam Grant and all kinds of other

44:31

brilliant people. I think Tim Cook is

44:33

a mentor and friend. You've built an

44:35

extraordinary collection of relationships in your life.

44:38

How have you gone about doing this

44:40

at such a young age? I'd say

44:42

the first thing is just that I

44:45

really love people. I come from a

44:47

mixed background. My mom is from India

44:49

born and raised in Bangalore. My dad

44:52

is white Jewish from the Bronx New

44:54

York. And... My parents met over a

44:56

little bit of a turn of fate,

44:58

two-week period that they crossed over. When

45:01

my dad was finishing his dissertation at

45:03

Princeton, my mom had just come over

45:05

from India and was doing her master's

45:08

there, and she was working in the

45:10

library to pay her way through school,

45:12

and my dad was studying for his

45:15

final dissertation defense. And my mom asked

45:17

my dad on a date, and on

45:19

this first date, my dad said, my

45:22

father will never accept us. And my

45:24

mom was so blinded by his use

45:26

of the word us that she completely

45:29

missed the message, which was that his

45:31

father was not going to like this

45:33

budding courtship. And unfortunately, he was right.

45:35

And his father made him choose between

45:38

my mom and his family. And my

45:40

dad walked out the door and never

45:42

saw his family again. I never met

45:45

my dad's parents. He has three siblings

45:47

I've never met. I have first cousins

45:49

out there in the world that I've

45:52

never met. This really crazy thing on

45:54

the back of them choosing love and

45:56

rejecting common convention and carving their own

45:59

path. And that sort of household, this

46:01

like mixed race, mixed cultural. ethnic, religious,

46:03

household meant that I really never felt

46:05

like I fit in to one group.

46:08

But the flip side of that, if

46:10

you kind of acknowledge the fact that

46:12

the best things in life dance on

46:15

this razor's edge between like a struggle

46:17

and a great thing, the great side

46:19

of that was that I have felt

46:22

like I've been able to relate to

46:24

different types of people. throughout my entire

46:26

life. I played sports my whole life.

46:29

I played baseball in college and I

46:31

was always able to relate to like

46:33

the, you know, deeply Christian Republican Southern

46:36

guy just as much as the like

46:38

kid from New York City. Like it

46:40

was just, I just love people. And,

46:42

you know, I would say just in

46:45

terms of some of the relationships that

46:47

I've been able to build with people

46:49

that I think are really amazing in

46:52

different ways. I don't care about Their

46:54

success in the same way that a

46:56

lot of people do meaning I admire

46:59

the like the input or the insight

47:01

or the intelligence or the effort or

47:03

energy that created it But I'm not

47:06

like going to be Wowed by them

47:08

in the way of like, oh my

47:10

God, I need to like worship at

47:12

the shrine of this person I really

47:15

admire people who are kind and generous

47:17

in giving and That's the type of

47:19

person that I aspire to be and

47:22

so I think a lot of people

47:24

in these high positions are used to

47:26

people coming to them with a handout

47:29

They're looking for something. They're like hey,

47:31

I invest in my company do these

47:33

things and I really try to with

47:36

the bias of If I'm going to

47:38

know this person for 50 years, how

47:40

would I operate in this first interaction?

47:43

I certainly wouldn't ask for something. I

47:45

certainly wouldn't be transactional in any way

47:47

because I'm going to know this person

47:49

for 50 years. I want to actually

47:52

understand their motivations, who they are as

47:54

a person, what are their vulnerabilities, what

47:56

are they insecure about? Like that's what

47:59

I really want. I want to know

48:01

the person. That has created these amazing

48:03

relationships and people. that have supported me

48:06

when, you know, really made no sense.

48:08

And I aspire to be that same

48:10

type of person to people who come

48:13

to me. And so I, like, you

48:15

know, I still respond to every email

48:17

that I get from anyone. I keep

48:19

my DEMs open. I reply to DEMs

48:22

from people. I send messages from people.

48:24

I send messages. I mean, I like,

48:26

I spend a lot of time trying

48:29

to do that and pay it forward.

48:31

I think it's really nice. You know,

48:33

One of the things that in my

48:36

own life, I'm 57, and my relationship

48:38

with friends has expanded over time, and

48:40

I think often midlife can be a

48:43

time of social contraction, but it strikes

48:45

me that it doesn't need to be.

48:47

One exercise that's been helpful for me

48:50

in my own life is I have

48:52

a category of person that I refer

48:54

to as a future good friend. Right.

48:56

So if I meet someone and I

48:59

think, you know what, this is someone

49:01

that I can imagine actually being like

49:03

a really close friend in years to

49:06

come. I will actually in some cases

49:08

say, you know what, I know this

49:10

is a little strange for me to

49:13

say this, but I think that you

49:15

might be a future good friend. And

49:17

it's a kind of forward thing to

49:20

say. And I invited people to my

49:22

wedding. Some of whom I didn't know

49:24

very well, but I said this to

49:26

them I said you know what I

49:29

just have this hunch that we might

49:31

be very good friends in 10 15

49:33

years and and those people are today

49:36

some of my closest friends So so

49:38

it's a love that but giving yourself

49:40

this space for identifying someone who could

49:43

be a future a future great friend

49:45

and having the boldness to cross the

49:47

line of saying hey, there's a there's

49:50

an there might be an opportunity here

49:52

I love the boldness because one of

49:54

the things that I keep saying to

49:57

people recently is Never be afraid to

49:59

send the double text and it's a

50:01

funny thing to say like everyone Shies

50:03

away from being the one like oh

50:06

I reached out and they never so

50:08

I can't send another text because I

50:10

don't want to be like too needy.

50:13

And I think about how many relationships,

50:15

loving, deep, incredibly vibrant relationships I have

50:17

in my life simply because I don't

50:20

care about being the person to send

50:22

the double or triple text. Like if

50:24

I love someone and I care about

50:27

them or if I'm interested in spending

50:29

more time with them, I'll send the

50:31

triple text. And if they don't. react

50:33

to that well or they find it

50:36

annoying we probably weren't going to be

50:38

friends anyway. Yeah, because I'm just the

50:40

type of person like I live in

50:43

a heart forward way. That's just the

50:45

way that I live. And sometimes that

50:47

doesn't work. Sometimes people don't respond well

50:50

to that. But most people actually do.

50:52

And I'd like to think that I

50:54

have enough value to offer to other

50:57

people that, you know, it can create

50:59

something interesting when I meet and spend

51:01

time with these people. And so I

51:04

have no issue being the person to

51:06

send the double or triple text, and

51:08

it has led to a lot of

51:10

vibrant relationships that wouldn't exist if I

51:13

had just stopped the first time they

51:15

never applied. Let's talk about mental wealth.

51:17

paying the price for your distinctiveness. And

51:20

that is kind of borrowing a phrase

51:22

from Jeff Bezos' final shareholder letter. He

51:24

wrote this final shareholder letter before he

51:27

left his role as CEO at Amazon,

51:29

and he quoted from Richard Dawkins, the

51:31

Blind Watchmaker. And in that, there's like

51:34

kind of this whole scene of. This

51:36

idea that being alive requires like daily

51:38

fight to keep yourselves alive, like your

51:40

cells right now in this moment, are

51:43

fighting to avoid just like melting into

51:45

their surroundings. They're trying to fight to

51:47

maintain their integrity. I love that quote.

51:50

Yeah. I love it. And Bezos uses

51:52

it as an analogy for your own

51:54

fight for distinctiveness as a human being

51:57

that every single day you have to

51:59

pay the price for your distinctiveness to

52:01

walk your own path rather than the

52:04

one that's been. handed to you. Mental

52:06

wealth is really about that. It's engaging

52:08

in that daily fight. And it is

52:11

thinking about creating the space in your

52:13

life to be able to think about

52:15

what is the actual mountain that I

52:17

want to climb. So often in life

52:20

we find ourselves climbing furiously up some

52:22

mountain that we've never taken the time

52:24

to think about whether we actually want

52:27

to be at the top of that

52:29

thing or whether we're actually even enjoying

52:31

climbing up the thing in the first

52:34

place. And so much of mental wealth

52:36

is just pausing to create a little

52:38

bit of space to ask yourself that

52:41

question. Do I actually want to be

52:43

on this mountain or is it just

52:45

the one that I have accepted as

52:47

mine that I've been told I should

52:50

care about and that I'm charging furiously

52:52

furiously up to the top of? Yes,

52:54

yes, yes. You have a wonderful section

52:57

where you talk about mental health hacks.

52:59

You wish you knew a 22, where

53:01

you say your purpose in life does

53:04

not have to be grand or ambitious.

53:06

It just has to be yours. Yeah,

53:08

that is drawing upon the Bhagabad Gita,

53:11

you know, ancient Hindu text, and it's,

53:13

you know, in the Bhagabad Gita, it's

53:15

about Darma. this idea of your sacred

53:17

duty and that your sacred duty does

53:20

not have to be grand or impressive

53:22

to anyone else. It just has to

53:24

be yours and a sacred duty or

53:27

a purpose that is tiny but done

53:29

well. and truly yours and distinct to

53:31

you is better than someone else's that

53:34

is grand or impressive that you have

53:36

just accepted within your life. I think

53:38

that that is so important for young

53:41

people to hear in particular because you

53:43

are especially in a social media age

53:45

just bombarded by information about other people's

53:48

purpose, other people's big grand vision for

53:50

their life, all these things. I mean,

53:52

look, we read books about all of

53:54

these celebrated figures, the people that we

53:57

admire and celebrate. My entire life change.

53:59

when I realized that the people that

54:01

I read books about I would never

54:04

want to trade lives with. My entire

54:06

life changed. around that realization that I

54:08

actually don't want those things. Someone should

54:11

want them. That's great. They can change

54:13

the world. Maybe Elon Musk makes us

54:15

an interplanetary species. The world needs crazy

54:18

ones, right? Like we need people like

54:20

that. I just don't want to be

54:22

pressured or forced into being one of

54:24

them. I want to be able to

54:27

focus on my two and a half

54:29

year old son and spend a ton

54:31

of time with him while he's young.

54:34

I want to be able to write

54:36

things that I think create an thousands

54:38

of hours a month. Like I just,

54:41

it's not what I want. If you

54:43

want that, then great. But I don't

54:45

need to be forced into that purpose

54:48

because it's not actually mine. A few

54:50

other of your mental health hacks, you

54:52

wish you knew at 22, solve problems,

54:55

make art, think deeply. I like that

54:57

a lot. And then reflect on the

54:59

past, but don't dwell on it. That's

55:01

fantastic. The dwelling one is, um. is

55:04

a really interesting one in the modern

55:06

age because we live in a culture

55:08

that now finds a lot of people

55:11

getting their dopamine from information gathering rather

55:13

than from action. And that is the

55:15

same culture where we get our dopamine

55:18

from talking about our problems rather than

55:20

from acting to solve them. And that

55:22

is what dwelling does. When you transition

55:25

from articulating or journaling on your problems

55:27

to just dwelling on them, you are

55:29

going into a dangerous territory. You need

55:31

to take action to actually improve upon

55:34

those things. There needs to be a

55:36

thin gap between the information or the

55:38

reflection that you did and then the

55:41

action that you're taking on the back

55:43

of that. And for too many of

55:45

us, we've created this really wide gap

55:48

that leads to rumination. It leads to

55:50

this negative spiral within our brains. Absolutely.

55:52

On my list of my favorite of

55:55

your mental health acts, the last one

55:57

is don't consume the news unless you're

55:59

highly confident it will matter one month

56:02

from now. That really can dramatically reduce...

56:04

our news consumption? I would say that

56:06

my life improved dramatically when I reduced

56:08

my news consumption. My daily happiness is

56:11

significantly higher when I do not consume

56:13

news. It's not about being ignorant about

56:15

the world around you. It's about recognizing

56:18

that the news is a skewed perspective

56:20

on the world around you because The

56:22

incentives around how media is created is

56:25

to get clicks. And we know scientifically

56:27

the things that get clicks are the

56:29

things that induce the most fear, anger,

56:32

chaos, etc. extreme reactions. So it creates

56:34

a very skewed perspective on what the

56:36

world actually looks like. There was an

56:38

amazing chart that was shown of It

56:41

was actual causes of death in the

56:43

United States versus what was reported on

56:45

as causes of death in the United

56:48

States. And it was basically like actual

56:50

causes of death or cancer or heart

56:52

disease were like the entire, you know,

56:55

huge portion of the bucket. And like

56:57

crime, terrorism, homicide was like this tiny

56:59

little sliver. And then the reported on

57:02

causes of death, it was entirely crime

57:04

and terrorism, homicide were the entire thing.

57:06

And like heart disease and cancer were

57:09

this tiny sliver at the top. It

57:11

was almost like the complete inverse of

57:13

reality. So even more damning than you

57:15

would think. Yes, right, exactly. Yeah, my

57:18

boys love to remind me that 150

57:20

people a year die from falling coconuts,

57:22

but still statistically that's very low. But

57:25

the number of people who die from

57:27

shark attacks, which concerns my wife when

57:29

we're going to the beach, is considerably

57:32

lower than coconut deaths, so we can

57:34

really, you know, feel a little more

57:36

comfortable with the swim. Well, and this

57:39

is a good segway to physical wealth,

57:41

which you say boils down to movement,

57:43

diet, and recovery. How do you think

57:45

about this in your own life? Yet

57:48

again, I think about the fact that

57:50

this is an area where we have

57:52

been bombarded by very complex information, when

57:55

the reality is that the simple boring

57:57

basics function very well. majority of people.

57:59

You can get 80-90% of the benefit

58:02

within the physical wealth domain by just

58:04

doing simple boring basics around those three

58:06

pillars, movement, nutrition, and recovery. It doesn't

58:09

require you spending $2 million a year

58:11

to live forever. It doesn't require you

58:13

investing a dramatic amount of your time.

58:16

You can do the simple things and

58:18

actually take action to improve your life,

58:20

to fight the natural atrophy or decay

58:22

curve that you were going to go

58:25

through as you age. And the thing

58:27

with physical wealth that is particularly important

58:29

to understand is that it is a catalyst

58:32

for every other type of wealth in your

58:34

life. When you are healthy and feel good,

58:36

when you take an action that creates an

58:38

outcome in your life, you start to show

58:40

up differently in all of the other areas.

58:42

You show up better at work, you're more

58:45

confident, show up better in your relationships, you

58:47

feel good about yourself. You start to show

58:49

up better in the other things that you

58:51

are engaging in or doing. So it actually

58:53

serves as a catalyst to recognize that you

58:55

are capable as a human being of taking

58:57

an action and creating an outcome.

58:59

And that has ripplele effects into

59:02

every other area of your life.

59:04

of our conversation that a lot

59:06

of your life has been driven

59:08

by insecurities. And I think, of course,

59:10

what's striking is that you

59:12

say that out loud, which most

59:14

people don't, right? I think everyone

59:16

has insecurities, right? And it's part

59:18

of the journey. And it seems

59:20

to me that we that our compensatory

59:22

efforts to make up for our

59:25

insecurities end up being a significant

59:27

drive in our lives. And but

59:29

hopefully we're on a path to

59:32

becoming more secure and more able

59:34

to add value to people around us.

59:36

Where are you on that journey today?

59:38

Do you feel like your insecurities are

59:41

gone? Are you still on a journey?

59:43

How do you see it? Everything

59:45

is a journey and you're never

59:47

perfect, but I would say that

59:50

my insecurities are 90 plus percent

59:52

gone. Part of that is because

59:54

I feel like I am standing in my

59:56

purpose now. Like I really feel like

59:58

I am doing the... thing that I

1:00:00

was supposed to be doing as

1:00:03

a human being. And that just

1:00:05

feels good. And when you feel

1:00:07

that way, there is a weight

1:00:09

that's lifted where you no longer

1:00:11

feel like you have to play

1:00:13

a role or an act in

1:00:15

any way. And you can just

1:00:17

be your own weird self. There's

1:00:19

a self-awareness that comes with that.

1:00:21

There were certainly insecurities leading up

1:00:23

to this book launch of whether

1:00:25

I was an imposter. Whether I

1:00:27

was really an author whether I

1:00:29

was capable of doing that whether

1:00:31

This was the point where I

1:00:33

would get found out I put

1:00:35

a lot of weight on the

1:00:37

achievement of these external goals of

1:00:39

hitting New York Times Best salary

1:00:41

list, for example, which is directly

1:00:43

in contrast with the advice that

1:00:45

I talk about in the book,

1:00:47

to not create these mountaintops. So

1:00:49

I need to read my own

1:00:51

writing. A lot of it is

1:00:53

notes to self along the way.

1:00:55

And the reason was because of

1:00:57

an insecurity, which is this insecurity

1:00:59

that I had of... This path

1:01:01

that I walked down made no

1:01:03

sense to 99.9% of people in

1:01:05

my life. When I left that

1:01:07

fancy job to go do writing

1:01:09

on Twitter or writing a newsletter,

1:01:11

I mean the number of people

1:01:13

that actually believed in me and

1:01:15

understood what I was doing, it

1:01:17

was basically one. And that was

1:01:19

my wife. I had a few

1:01:21

mentors who really believed in me.

1:01:23

So maybe it was five. Maybe

1:01:25

it was my parents who probably

1:01:27

were still confused. But my wife

1:01:29

was really the number one. There

1:01:31

was a feeling that I had

1:01:33

attached to this moment of publishing

1:01:36

the book and it being a

1:01:38

success where I had this vision

1:01:40

of This is when no one

1:01:42

can any longer question that this

1:01:44

was the right path. Because I

1:01:46

did that thing that I had

1:01:48

wanted to do, like it is

1:01:50

legitimate, now you cannot question it.

1:01:52

And the insecurity I felt in

1:01:54

before achieving that, before feeling like

1:01:56

I could put that stamp on

1:01:58

it and just like put it

1:02:00

to rest, was definitely one that

1:02:02

I was still feeling in the

1:02:04

buildup and in the lawn. Well,

1:02:06

Sahel, thank you so much for

1:02:08

taking time out of your busy

1:02:10

schedule to be with us. What

1:02:12

a lovely conversation. This was a

1:02:14

blast. Thank you so much for

1:02:16

having me. Sahel Bloom's new book,

1:02:18

The Five Types of Wealth, is

1:02:20

out now. If you enjoyed this

1:02:22

episode, please let us know. Leave

1:02:24

a comment on Spotify or a

1:02:26

review on Apple podcast. We Read

1:02:28

Everyone. Have you heard about our

1:02:30

daily newsletter? It's called Book of

1:02:32

the Day. Every weekday we send

1:02:34

you a summary of a brand

1:02:36

new work of nonfiction. These summaries

1:02:38

are written and read by the

1:02:40

authors themselves so you know you're

1:02:42

getting the genuine article, not AI

1:02:44

Slop. Subscribe to Book of the

1:02:46

Day by following the link in

1:02:48

the episode notes or by Googling

1:02:50

Book of the Day sub stack.

1:02:52

Today's episode was produced by Caleb

1:02:54

Bissinger, Sound Design by Mike Tota.

1:02:56

The next big idea is a

1:02:58

proud member of the LinkedIn Podcast

1:03:00

Network. I'm Rufus Griscom. See you

1:03:02

next week.