0:08

Hello everyone, this is Rob,

0:10

and welcome back to Lore,

0:12

Liars, and Liars. Today we're

0:14

going to be discussing the

0:17

Parting of Ways arc of

0:19

season 2. In Parting of

0:21

Ways, Alan plays Ret, Joe

0:23

plays Boke, and Chanel

0:25

plays Freya. Parting of

0:27

Ways, Part 1. At the

0:29

Braddock House, the unlikely crew

0:31

of Jack, Ret, Boke, Ashley,

0:34

Marcus, and Tabitha Kesik. share

0:36

notes on the chaotic developing

0:38

situation surrounding the Advent project.

0:40

Kezik explains the strategy behind

0:42

Sol Invictus' development of the

0:44

Nepholeim, and allows Ret to

0:46

read her thoughts in order

0:48

to establish trust. Jack and

0:50

Boqui bond over the tragedy

0:52

and madness that's taken over

0:54

their lives, striking up an

0:56

unlikely friendship. It's decided that

0:58

Ret will attempt to help Novea with

1:00

her lost memories, as well as to

1:02

get Kathleen Lithgow on their side, if

1:05

possible. Ret bristles at the

1:07

callous attitude Tabitha takes

1:09

toward Lithgow's persuasion, a

1:11

philosophical impasse. Ashley decides to leave

1:14

Sol and Victus and join the

1:16

Minat directive, and Boke and Jack

1:18

hit the road to look in

1:20

on Boke's family. Parting of

1:22

Ways, Part 2. Ret enters the lake of

1:24

the Coven, where he communes with

1:27

Haley Pennington, who leads him

1:29

to Novea's place of convalescence.

1:31

Ret creates a comforting scene in

1:33

Novea's mind in which to help

1:35

her reclaim her lost memories and

1:38

work through her trauma. They project into

1:40

one of her memories wandering the halls

1:42

of Datcon, where they see Mitch and

1:44

Kira on the way to meet with

1:47

Novea and Abby Harshman. At Novea's

1:49

request, Ret tells her that Abby is

1:51

in fact dead in the present.

1:53

Following that negative feeling, Novea finds

1:56

a past echo of Pierce Kezik.

1:58

Boki and Jack wrote... to Virginia to

2:00

check in on Boke's family, demolishing

2:03

some all-you-can-eat ribs along the way.

2:05

Boke steps away to take a

2:07

call from her father's number, but

2:09

the person on the phone is

2:11

a woman calling herself Cynthia, who

2:14

apologizes for the conduct of the

2:16

whistling man, promising a much more

2:18

professional onboarding to Solon Victus, this

2:20

time around. In an attempt to

2:22

keep her family safe, Boke leaves,

2:25

like a thief in the night.

2:27

Parting of ways, part three. Ret

2:29

and Novea witness the cannibalistic murder

2:31

Pierce committed at Dattcon and decide

2:33

not to push any further that

2:36

day. Haley leads Ret to the

2:38

place of Kathleen's imprisonment. On the

2:40

way, he offers to enlist Freya

2:42

Benton's help in aiding Kira's recovery.

2:44

Kathleen awakens to find Ret in

2:47

the attempt of helping her and

2:49

is not a cooperative patient. They

2:51

discuss Lithko's new nature, but are

2:53

overshadowed suddenly by a vast and

2:55

dark presence from deeper in the

2:58

deeper in the lake. Meanwhile Boke

3:00

visits with her family and studies

3:02

the sole invictus documents stolen by

3:04

Marcus. She gives her parents a

3:06

cover story and lets them know

3:09

that she won't be able to

3:11

communicate as often, if at all.

3:13

Parting of Ways, Part 4. Ret

3:15

and Kathleen are transported to an

3:18

alien wasteland, whose strange ecosystem seems

3:20

to uplift and sustain Kathleen, who

3:22

deduces that they are on earth

3:24

unthinkable eons in the future. As

3:26

strange humanoid figures give chase, they

3:29

take refuge in a great stone

3:31

tower, where Kathleen discovers she is

3:33

able to control the magical reshaping

3:35

of the rock itself. Kathleen accesses

3:37

a strange store of knowledge that

3:40

exists within the stone, seeing the

3:42

great war between the fecundity and

3:44

the nightmares for which the insulation

3:46

was built. By and by the

3:48

tower is approached by a huge

3:51

being that Kathleen feels the instinctual

3:53

need to attack. Kathleen and the

3:55

creature exchange beams of lethal energy,

3:57

and as flames overtake them, and

3:59

Rat awaken back in the depths

4:02

of the lake. Parting of Ways, Part

4:04

5. Bokee is given a location to

4:06

meet up with Solon Victus and faces

4:08

the reality of leaving her family

4:11

behind. The group sent to meet

4:13

her are ambushed by Jack Kincaid

4:15

who Bokee realizes is helping her

4:17

sell her betrayal to give her

4:19

a better position with her new

4:21

superiors. She gets into the motorcade

4:23

which is nearly destroyed by

4:26

a suddenly arriving Carter Combs.

4:28

with Bokey's vehicle barely escaping.

4:30

In the lake, Kathleen awakens

4:32

in great pain, transfixed by

4:34

spikes like a pinned butterfly,

4:36

as Ellie attempts to murder

4:39

her in vengeance for Kira.

4:41

Kathleen burns her way out of

4:43

the lake, at great cost to

4:45

the domain's integrity. Parting of

4:47

Ways. Part 6. Freya Benton brings

4:49

Theseus, Diana, Diana, and Orion to

4:52

her nearest safe house, where a

4:54

great number of conductors appear. Orion

4:56

reveals what little is known about

4:59

the conductors, and explains his prophetic

5:01

dreams, as well as Freya's place

5:03

in them, and says his goodbyes,

5:06

fully understanding that he won't be

5:08

left alive to use his gifts

5:10

against Moonin. Orion also reveals that

5:13

Orpheus' best understanding is that two

5:15

apocalypsees, one of fire and one

5:17

of flesh, are vying for the

5:19

honor of ending the world as

5:21

we know it. This knowledge attained, Freya meets

5:23

the conductors outside. where they reduce

5:26

her to her essential salts, reconstructing

5:28

her eons in the future, with

5:30

Ferris having faithfully waited at her

5:33

side all through the ages. A

5:35

conductor grants to Freya's philosopher's

5:37

stone an inscrutable enhancement, which

5:39

she uses to dominate the

5:41

will of a nightmare that

5:43

soon attacks her, and she embarks on

5:46

her long and strange journey in a

5:48

strange land. Somewhere else, Rhett reads

5:50

a farewell letter Freya left behind

5:52

for him. And at sanctuary, Moonen

5:55

oversees the fusion of the

5:57

Cabaros unit with Caitlin Dan

6:00

and Bernier's pyramid

6:03

entity. And that

6:05

was parting of

6:08

ways, an arc

6:10

that saw significant

6:12

rearranging of furniture and

6:15

a fair bit of

6:17

sadness, basically. Yeah. I

6:20

am joined to discuss

6:22

this arc by the

6:24

one the only Manhattan.

6:27

Number one Sad Boy,

6:29

Manhattan. No, hello everyone.

6:31

Hello, hello. It's me.

6:34

Um, it is true.

6:36

I actually have a

6:38

little note here that's

6:41

like big reset exclamation

6:43

point, exclamation point, exclamation

6:45

point, exclamation point, and

6:48

sort of, you know,

6:50

I think I think

6:53

I think, this is

6:55

a heavier reset than

6:57

the beginning of this

6:59

season in some ways

7:01

because at this point

7:03

you have no more

7:05

of the original people

7:07

original characters in the

7:09

main timeline for one.

7:11

That's true. You've killed

7:14

off most of or

7:16

separated off most of

7:18

the secondary people that

7:20

came in. Freya is

7:22

by themselves. Ret is

7:24

over, you know, is kind

7:26

of the only person who's remaining,

7:28

who's like history that we know.

7:31

And then the advent program, which

7:33

had been something that had been

7:35

from the very first episode right

7:38

like we know it's bubbling beneath

7:40

the surface from the very actual

7:42

very beginning right had all it

7:45

was all gone like it was

7:47

all done it was all you

7:49

know you closed the door on

7:52

so many of these things and

7:54

then like opened the window and I

7:56

did wonder like as you were listening

7:59

to this Or, as you were making

8:01

this, I guess, do you remember

8:03

you at the time and you re

8:05

-listening to it? What were your impressions?

8:08

Can you subsequent, the things that have

8:10

happened since then? Do you think about

8:12

like, oh, it all began here? Do

8:14

you think like, man, I was really

8:16

stressed out about all that stuff when

8:18

that stuff stuffed. You know what I

8:20

mean? So those are some of like,

8:22

that was sort of what I wanted

8:24

to kick off with. So if I

8:26

remember correctly, and it's been a long

8:28

time, so I could be fabricating some memories

8:31

here, but I feel like

8:33

the strongest impression while recording this

8:35

was just like how much

8:37

of a bummer it was,

8:39

like, not that there's any

8:41

like, it's not that there's

8:43

tons of gigantic tragedies in

8:45

this arc. It's more like,

8:47

this is poignant right now,

8:49

it's more like re -adjusting your

8:51

expectations in the wake of

8:53

like, big events that make the

8:56

world worse and more difficult

8:58

to live in and more disappointing.

9:00

Yeah. No, that's also true.

9:02

I also was like, God damn

9:04

it. Like when we get

9:06

to the point where that whole

9:08

talk by Orion, when we

9:10

get to the conversation with Orion,

9:12

he's like, how does good

9:14

stay good without doing evil? And

9:16

I was like, come on,

9:18

I didn't need this on Tuesday,

9:21

on the Tuesday, but it is,

9:23

it's kind of a bummer.

9:25

An evil person can use evil

9:27

means and good means while

9:29

a good person can only use

9:31

good means. And like, because

9:34

sometimes evil means will be more

9:36

effective, evil people will always

9:38

be at an advantage, at least

9:40

if you view it through

9:42

a vacuum of just means available.

9:44

Yeah. Obviously, like taking a

9:46

step further, like evil things are

9:48

not as well -liked or popular

9:50

as good things generally by

9:52

people due to, you know, evolution.

9:54

So there is something that

9:56

good has on the ball here,

9:58

but like when - I'm not in

10:00

a very good mood. That is

10:03

something that I have often found

10:05

myself pondering. Yeah, I was just

10:07

like, God damn it, this episode.

10:09

I didn't need that today. That's

10:12

how I was feeling. I was

10:14

like, I was really looking for,

10:16

but, but no, I agree that

10:18

the vibe of this whole arc.

10:20

is kind of a we spilled

10:23

milk like the milk has been

10:25

spilt and are we gonna cry

10:27

about the milk are we going

10:29

to go and try to like

10:31

save the milk right is the

10:33

milk even worth drinking anymore I've

10:36

lost the metaphor doesn't work because

10:38

no one's drinking floor milk but

10:40

you know what I mean like

10:43

I do yeah because like My

10:45

memory of this arc was that

10:48

it was very sad and a

10:50

big bummer. And while that's sort

10:52

of still true, I was surprised

10:55

by how few big dramatic tragic

10:57

events happened in it. Because like

10:59

I said, it's more about bad

11:02

things have already happened, and this

11:04

arc is about figuring out what

11:06

the fuck do you do now.

11:08

Right. Now that things have gotten

11:10

worse. Right. Yeah, again, very funny

11:12

synchronicity having this come out when

11:14

it does. Yeah. I think that's an

11:17

important thing to look at, but

11:19

it's also probably, it's probably stressful

11:21

when you really sit down with

11:24

it because in some ways you're

11:26

rebuilding a show, right? Like, and

11:28

I find that also to be

11:30

an interesting vibe as well, is,

11:33

was there any of that going

11:35

like, oh, like, I have to

11:37

do this again? Like, I get

11:40

it now more, but I have

11:42

to do this again? You know

11:44

what I mean? I don't know if

11:46

you thought about that at the time.

11:48

Less at the time, like I said,

11:50

my memory was more about the somber

11:52

tone, but listening to it back, I

11:54

was like, wow, there really is a

11:57

lot of stuff happening in this arc

11:59

that sets up... how the story, it's

12:01

giving this rearrangement of furniture,

12:03

basically, that gives room for the

12:05

next activities to happen, basically.

12:07

It's like the story is being

12:09

granted the space that it

12:11

needs to progress by moving some

12:13

pieces around on the board.

12:15

And there was more of that,

12:17

there was more of that

12:19

groundwork for further storylines in this

12:21

arc than I remembered. Then

12:23

you remembered. Yeah, yeah. There was

12:25

some really cool stuff. I

12:27

mean, what's also like really nice

12:29

about it is you have

12:31

three very different personalities that

12:33

end up doing it. I

12:35

had forgotten actually that this

12:38

was the arc where Freya

12:40

also goes into the future.

12:42

Yeah. I had forgotten about

12:44

that. And so I thought

12:46

that was cool. I like

12:48

how Alan, I actually think

12:51

the best chunk of this

12:53

whole episode of this whole

12:55

thing is Arley and Alan

12:57

interacting. It was very good. It's,

13:00

I had, I mean, I played

13:02

with Alan a bunch and I

13:04

played with Arley for going on

13:06

six years at this point. Yeah.

13:08

And I had just, this thing

13:10

had like just forgotten, I had

13:12

forgotten how good it was because

13:14

Alan comes in wanting to heal

13:16

this person, right? Like that's the

13:18

whole, like Alan comes in or

13:20

Rhett comes in, I'm going to

13:22

heal this person. It's going to

13:25

be great. And, but the tension

13:27

isn't I can't be healed, right?

13:29

Which I think is the tension

13:31

with Nevea. Like, can she, like,

13:33

will she ever be healed?

13:35

Can you come back from this?

13:37

Right. The tension is she

13:39

does not want to be, like,

13:41

she doesn't see any reason

13:44

to be healed in the first

13:46

place because she has succeeded

13:48

in everything she wanted, right? She's

13:50

like, I am the perfect

13:52

Kathleen Lithgow. You see me as

13:54

a broken person, but I

13:56

am not broken in any way.

13:58

And the reaction Could I want

14:01

to be different than this? Right?

14:03

Yeah. And you did a great

14:05

job with that too? Like when

14:07

Rhett shows the mirror to Kathleen

14:09

and you're like, you are the

14:11

most beautiful thing you've ever seen,

14:14

you really laid that foundation for

14:16

this interaction. He's like, haven't you

14:18

seen you became a monster? And

14:20

like, on the other hand, she's

14:22

there being like. And no, I'm,

14:25

I slap. Like I'm the best.

14:27

I mean, but you think you

14:29

think about Kathleen Lithgow's past, like

14:31

her history, how could she be

14:33

anything but very happy about how

14:36

it's gone? Right. You know, she

14:38

worked her whole life for this

14:40

and it worked. Right. And then

14:42

someone comes in and says, okay,

14:44

I'm gonna help you get better.

14:46

Like, thanks for asking. Like the

14:49

best part is, and Arley had

14:51

this great little moment where Rett

14:53

holds his hand out to shake,

14:55

and Arley very pointedly says, Kathleen

14:57

does not shake his hand. And

15:00

I thought that was really funny.

15:02

I thought it was really... It's

15:04

got to be liberating just role-playing

15:06

such a deeply unpleasant person. It's

15:08

not that she necessarily... is actively

15:10

pursuing an evil agenda. She's done

15:13

lots of bad stuff. Sure, very

15:15

morally great, but like, it's just

15:17

she doesn't give a shit about

15:19

small talk. She doesn't like listening

15:21

to music. Right. She would probably

15:24

eat like a pill that is

15:26

all your nutrients for the day

15:28

if she could. Like, it's just

15:30

such a different vibe. There's no

15:32

other, like, not even just an

15:34

Orpheus, but in like... most other

15:37

games I've run for anything, like

15:39

in person. I can't really think

15:41

of another player character who went

15:43

for that vibe with their character.

15:45

And I think it's really interesting.

15:48

It's one of those things where

15:50

like, it's such a completely different

15:52

thing, but if you've watched Buff.

15:54

the Vampire Slayer, you'll probably get

15:56

what I mean. When I say

15:58

like, Oz from Buffy the Vampire

16:01

Slayer, just built into the way

16:03

that his character works is that...

16:05

you can have a super interesting

16:07

scene or set of scenes if

16:09

you just have him talk one-on-one

16:12

with literally any other character in

16:14

the show. Just because of the

16:16

way that he observes things and

16:18

the way that he communicates and

16:20

stuff. And I think in a

16:22

less pleasant way, Kathleen's like that.

16:25

Like you put Kathleen in a

16:27

room with any NPC or any

16:29

player character and they will have

16:31

an interesting conversation because she's so

16:33

uncompromisingizing and knows what she wants

16:35

and what she cares about. Really?

16:38

Yeah, no, I agree. I agree.

16:40

I just, I really enjoyed a

16:42

lot of that. I thought that

16:44

was a lot of fun in

16:46

general and how those things work.

16:48

Yeah, so big, big, big props

16:50

to Arley because I didn't really

16:53

like, all I had was this

16:55

is a person who's been looking

16:57

for the answers to this enigma

16:59

for a long period of time.

17:01

And like the rest of it was

17:03

basically Arley building the actual personality and

17:06

all the mannerisms and stuff. Good job

17:08

Arley. Way to continue to be excellent.

17:10

But yeah, that was a very interesting

17:12

interaction that they had. And like yeah,

17:15

we see a lot of different levels

17:17

of what's going on in the lake

17:19

as well in this. I had actually

17:21

forgotten about Ellie trying to kill Kathleen.

17:24

That was a pretty effective, a pretty

17:26

effective scene that I'd forgotten all about.

17:28

Oh my god, are you kidding? That,

17:30

what a bummer, like that episode,

17:32

that, really? Like, I think

17:34

about that, you know, a

17:37

lot. And, like, because the

17:39

saddest part of that whole

17:41

thing, like, the thing that

17:43

makes that, that particular thing

17:45

hurt so badly, is because

17:47

of her childishness, because of

17:49

her anger, which makes total

17:51

sense, right at the time,

17:53

everything they had done. Did

17:56

it matter? Like that's

17:58

the biggest? Like, they

18:00

lose Samson, they lose Kirit, like,

18:02

all this stuff, like, Marcus

18:04

may or may not be outed,

18:06

like. As a double agent.

18:08

Yeah, like, all this stuff, right?

18:11

And then at the end,

18:13

she still just walks off on

18:15

fire and butt naked from

18:17

the, like, from the fucking thing.

18:19

And like, God, it's such

18:21

a fucking bummer. And that's just,

18:23

that's just how it went,

18:25

you know? Yeah. Like, there was

18:27

a plenty of opportunity, had,

18:29

like, conversations with Rhett gone differently,

18:31

had some other scenes gone

18:33

differently for it to end in

18:35

a different way, but it,

18:37

I remember during the planning

18:39

of this arc, thinking partway through

18:42

recording it, that's like, they didn't

18:44

convince Kathleen at all, like,

18:46

like they didn't, there's no reason

18:48

for her to, like, want to

18:51

stay. They don't have the same

18:53

resources to give her that moon

18:55

and does. Right? At her first

18:57

opportunity, she's just going to leave

18:59

because they didn't convince her of

19:02

their view. They may have captured

19:04

her successfully at great cost, but

19:06

they did not persuade her to

19:08

respect their idea. Right. And, right.

19:10

And to for, and, I mean,

19:12

and props to everybody for the

19:15

playing is you realized that, right?

19:17

And then you didn't force, like,

19:19

hey, you listen NPCs, I need

19:21

you to be NPCs because I

19:23

need that to have, like, I

19:25

need you on the same team.

19:27

Well, yeah, same thing with Boqui,

19:29

because, like, it could have gone

19:31

different. And Boqui would not have

19:34

necessarily, there was no locked in.

19:36

She's going to join Soul Invictus,

19:38

but that was just the choice

19:40

that was made. And it made

19:42

sense. So yeah, it's interesting. This

19:44

is a very, like, table setting

19:46

arc when it comes to, like, you know,

19:48

yeah, just setting things up to progress

19:50

further. But there was a lot of. So

19:53

we're going to figure out where this

19:55

thread goes from here, but it doesn't have

19:57

to go one specific place. Like, I

19:59

want to see. what people do. Right, right.

20:01

I wanted players to sort of have

20:03

the ability to guide where it was

20:06

going to go. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I guess

20:08

like, so you did it, so it

20:10

doesn't start off with an episode

20:12

where everybody sort of fractured in

20:15

a different place, right? Like you

20:17

didn't know that you were running

20:19

into an arc that was basically

20:21

split the party at its most

20:24

fundamental. Like that wasn't something that you

20:26

were expecting this arc to be. I'm

20:28

trying to remember what I'm really interested

20:30

about is if I knew that one

20:33

of these splinters was going to happen

20:35

and that's why I named the arc

20:37

parting of ways or if I was

20:39

working in a backlog I think I

20:41

had a backlog back then so I

20:44

probably knew from like having recorded the

20:46

first, even the first episode, right? I

20:48

knew we were splitting into different viewpoints

20:50

with the red book key. So I

20:52

think that, yeah, like, but then the

20:54

title turned out to be more accurate

20:56

than I would have even expected just

20:59

due to how many choices were made

21:01

to like have people go off on

21:03

their own. It's pretty funny. I

21:05

mean, it's a pretty, it's

21:07

a pretty interesting thing. And

21:09

yet, at the same time,

21:12

this is the first time

21:14

that we really hear and

21:16

understand, at least minimally, the

21:18

oblivion vault. Like, we had

21:20

never really talked about the

21:22

oblivion vault before. We had

21:24

known about the key here

21:27

and there, but the whole

21:29

idea of the oblivion vault

21:31

hadn't been a thing before.

21:33

center stage. Yeah, right. And

21:35

Orion, Orion, as someone who interacts

21:37

and talks to the player characters,

21:40

hadn't been a thing before. This

21:42

was like the first time that

21:45

really happens because he had been

21:47

in like the vacuum seal before

21:49

in like the when Freya interacts

21:52

with him before and then he

21:54

was gone. This is the like

21:56

the first time they he talks

21:59

to AP. And so it's interesting

22:01

because, you know, he's there, but

22:03

it's also like, we're never going

22:05

to see him. Like, he's like,

22:07

we'll never speak again. Right? Yeah.

22:09

Yeah, because he knows that he's

22:11

not going to be allowed to

22:13

live because of his abilities. they

22:15

don't have the resources to protect

22:17

him. The ace in the hole

22:19

they have, the thing that they

22:21

bought most dearly, you know, burned

22:23

a hole in the lake and

22:25

walked away. And the only other,

22:27

like, the only other thing to

22:29

try to draw an inside straight

22:31

that they have is that the

22:33

conductors are willing to send Freya

22:35

into the future where she needs

22:37

to be. Right. The conductors are

22:39

an interesting thing. And I

22:41

think we've talked briefly about

22:43

them before. Yeah. But I

22:45

do have this thing, this

22:48

thought in my mind, which

22:50

is the conductors are the

22:52

opposite of everybody else. So

22:54

like, because right, because, right,

22:56

we, entropy is our natural

22:58

state. Right? Entries our natural

23:00

state. And if we don't,

23:02

and so we work really,

23:04

really hard to keep entropy

23:06

from occurring, right? We, right?

23:08

Everything wants to be chaos. So we

23:10

clean our room and we clean our

23:12

room and we clean our room and

23:14

we never, we never finished. I saw

23:16

some, some little meme today that I

23:18

laughed at that was a picture of

23:20

sisyphs, sisyphs, pushing a rock up a

23:22

hill and then across it, you know,

23:24

and then across it, you know, you

23:27

know, You know, like all I do

23:29

is feel like, I don't even know

23:31

how my glasses get fucking fingerprints on

23:33

them. But like, I take them off

23:35

and I'm like, I'm like, why is

23:37

everything so cloudy? And then I

23:39

take off my stupid glasses and

23:41

I'm like, there's a big ass

23:44

thumbprint. When did I even do

23:46

that? It's like a fucking ghost

23:48

touched my glasses. But they're the

23:50

opposite. They eat entropy and then

23:53

like shit out order or they

23:55

like eat entropy and like do

23:57

machinations of stuff. Yeah. And I.

24:00

So their natural state is to

24:02

do the opposite or their natural

24:04

way. Kind of. Because like yeah,

24:06

the natural state of any given

24:08

universe is entropy, but it seems

24:10

like each universe is actually part

24:12

of some like unthinkable vast machine

24:14

that the conductors are operating that

24:16

has its own order to it.

24:18

Exactly. When he was talking, when

24:20

Orion was talking, he's like, they

24:22

show up, when there's a lot

24:24

of chaos, they show up at

24:26

pain and fear and anger, they

24:28

show up all. this stuff, but

24:30

they also, but then they

24:32

take all that stuff and

24:34

they build a factory or

24:36

they take all that stuff

24:39

and they send Freya into

24:41

the future. And so I

24:43

thought that, that was interesting

24:45

to me. They're meant to

24:47

be, you know, ultimately unknowable,

24:49

but seeing them as like,

24:51

yeah, anti-entropic, like a force

24:53

of order, though not order

24:55

that humans necessarily have the

24:58

scale to understand, is certainly

25:00

accurate. And I didn't remember this,

25:02

but yeah, dropping in the little

25:04

word of God thing through Orion's

25:06

dialogue that the conductors may be

25:08

like sort of the ultimate source

25:10

of magic. Yeah. Because they allow

25:12

the laws of thermodynamics to be

25:14

bypassed. Right. Maybe there's all these

25:16

ways of harnessing magic now, but

25:18

like, it could be that if

25:20

the conductors didn't do what they

25:22

do, none of them would work.

25:24

Right. Exactly. Which did raise a

25:26

question in my mind. And I

25:28

don't remember why this. Like, you

25:30

know, we have, and I guess

25:32

this is in some ways, is

25:34

a mechanical thing. And if you

25:37

ever thought of like, statting it

25:39

out, but like, so our characters

25:41

have, you know, there is a

25:43

number of powers a character can

25:45

get based on their archetype, right?

25:47

But we then have these these

25:49

bigger things, right? We have pierce

25:52

doing his travel through time,

25:54

we have thing like Tabitha being

25:56

a like a powerful, like a

25:58

magic user in some. ways right

26:00

and and how do you ever

26:02

in your head when you do

26:04

this stuff up or when you

26:07

think about it do you ever

26:09

feel the need to stat out

26:11

or create rules for things like

26:13

ritual magic or coming across like

26:15

oh my character really needs to

26:17

find a fucking scroll to like

26:19

close the eye of Shimna Groth

26:21

or whatever yeah now I mean

26:24

Not really. Is that, that's not

26:26

a, that's not a, I would

26:28

make stats if there was like

26:30

some sort of either gameplay or

26:32

narrative juice that was going to

26:34

be lost if we didn't have

26:36

it interact directly with the mechanics,

26:39

but like, you know, there's no

26:41

mechanic that says I have to

26:43

have NPCA walk up to the

26:45

player and say line. X of

26:47

dialogue, so why should there be

26:49

a rule for how the conductors

26:51

work? Like, it's just me telling,

26:54

you know, the setting of the

26:56

story ultimately. I would build levers

26:58

for mechanics if there was something

27:00

interesting about injecting that

27:02

sort of codified uncertainty

27:04

into interactions with it. But

27:07

if there's not, then it's just part

27:09

of the story. Interesting.

27:11

Yeah, I was just wondering because, you know,

27:13

there are, if you look at...

27:15

you know, other big horror games

27:17

that deal to horror, like there

27:19

are like the mechanics for like

27:21

doing conducting a ritual, but that's

27:23

never something that you feel necessary

27:25

to like put in a in

27:27

a set of rules or what

27:30

have you. Not for this. In

27:32

a less comic booky thing where

27:34

like magic was a bigger longer

27:36

term undertaking with a bunch of

27:38

risks and chaos to it and

27:40

sourcing rare gems that you have

27:42

to like put in the heart

27:44

of the fire to blah blah

27:46

blah maybe I would do that

27:49

but that's not how magic works

27:51

in Orpheus like the Orpheus world

27:53

is very high fantasy despite being

27:55

like a modern horror tone high

27:58

horror low survivability big fields There

28:00

you go. But I was just

28:02

wondering, because I was thinking about

28:04

like Tabitha, when they were talking

28:06

about like Tabitha's vibe and stuff,

28:08

like, oh, like when Tabitha just

28:11

opens a sparkle doorway, you know

28:13

what I mean? Although that was,

28:15

that was just the overload for,

28:17

that's just the overload, impossible geometries.

28:19

But yeah, like, there's plenty of

28:21

stuff that Tabitha does with the

28:24

tulpas that is like beyond what

28:26

a normal eminent eminent can do.

28:28

archetype when she got those powers

28:30

and started using them, but also

28:33

for the story she needed to

28:35

be more of a force than

28:37

just one player character. Mm-hmm. That

28:39

makes sense. Because player characters, you know,

28:42

I would reject... the back story of,

28:44

well, so I was the child of

28:46

this sorcerer and got all of like

28:49

his powers from reading all of his

28:51

books and then I went and joined

28:53

and led a giant Eldrich cult and

28:55

learned all of their magic too and

28:58

harness the power of the labyrinth and

29:00

blah blah blah blah, you know, that

29:02

would not work for a player character.

29:05

Sure, sure. Have all these powers that

29:07

there's no rules for, but like, obviously

29:09

there should be NPCs that have

29:11

that have that. I did like

29:14

Jack saying part of

29:16

my state of advanced

29:18

shirtlessness. That was a

29:20

pretty funny joke. I

29:22

don't think I have

29:25

any further non-spoilers. Yeah,

29:27

I think everything else

29:29

I have is spoilerific.

29:31

Not surprised given that

29:34

this is a set

29:36

up lots of things.

29:38

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Why

29:40

don't we ride this

29:42

concrete carrying train

29:45

that's rattling my

29:48

house right now

29:50

into the spoiler

29:53

zone to discuss

29:55

some of these

29:57

things? Chew Chew.

30:00

Spoilers. Mind the gap.

30:02

We're disembarking into the spoiler

30:04

zone. Yeah, what do you

30:07

got? All right, so a

30:09

couple things. So we do

30:11

a lot of timey whiminess

30:13

in this one in some

30:15

real ways. So I believe

30:18

that Freya jumps into the

30:20

future pre the nightmares making

30:22

their empire. Yes or no? Yeah,

30:25

I sort of envisioned it as

30:27

Freya being more of a force.

30:29

that had been shaping the events

30:31

that lead up to Mitch's journey

30:33

for like quite a number of

30:35

years. So my guess would be

30:37

maybe Freya went to a, yeah,

30:39

like a time before that, meaning

30:41

that Ret and Kathleen went to

30:43

a time where Freya had already

30:46

been in the future for quite

30:48

a long time. Right. So then

30:50

my question for that is, so

30:52

did Kathleen and Ret happen AF?

30:54

afterwards, like after the fall,

30:56

because we find out that

30:58

the nightmares were able to

31:00

hold, like, set up their

31:02

own kingdom, right, that they

31:04

had defeated them, or that

31:06

they had held back the

31:08

fecundity using the power of

31:10

the fire and death, etc.,

31:12

etc., like ultimate death. And

31:14

that created sort of this,

31:16

the stalemate between the two

31:18

of them. But like, yeah,

31:20

earlier on, the nightmares had

31:22

a huge, like, world-spanning empire

31:25

that the fecundity defeated.

31:27

Okay. So like, where Mitch goes, the

31:29

city of fear is like the last

31:32

bastion of the nightmares, basically. Okay. So

31:34

if we're thinking about the way the

31:36

arcs carry on, it is like, it

31:38

goes, now Freya, Kathleen and Ret, and

31:41

then into where Mitch is in the

31:43

future. Yeah, that's cool. I was trying

31:45

to sort it out and I was

31:47

like, because in my head, the question

31:50

was, because the company started before the

31:52

nightmares were released from their prison,

31:54

right, right, but the fecundity

31:56

happening destabilized, probably Orpheus,

31:58

realistically, whatever. forces were making

32:00

sure they didn't break out,

32:03

were distracted and overdrawn enough that

32:05

they were able to escape,

32:07

they found some success fighting against

32:09

the fecundity but eventually got

32:11

driven back to a point where

32:13

like while the fecundity couldn't

32:15

really dedicate the resources to annihilating

32:17

them, like they weren't expanding their

32:19

territory and like threatening the

32:22

fecundity's overall success in the world

32:24

anymore. Right, right. Okay,

32:26

that makes sense. And so now

32:28

I'm gonna get to this like so

32:30

then I was thinking about it.

32:32

So the fecundity defeats the nightmares. So

32:34

the stone magic that Kathleen

32:36

is able to use,

32:38

right? Because she

32:40

is built to fight

32:42

the like the foreigners, right?

32:44

But the fecundity is

32:47

not the foreigners, kind of,

32:49

right? Well, it's related

32:51

because foreigner influence, foreigner energy

32:53

material, whatever is part

32:55

of the big stew that

32:57

Nadra cooked up. But

32:59

she like basically, so here's

33:02

where we start getting into things

33:04

where I was like, okay,

33:06

because if that's the case, the

33:08

the foreigners stew that Nadra

33:10

uses comes from Kathleen, right? So

33:13

Kathleen is and also

33:15

Carcosa, right? So Kathleen

33:17

is basically built to kill herself.

33:20

In a way, yeah. The Nephilim

33:22

are of a foreigner to fight

33:24

foreigner, right? The fecundity has an

33:26

element of the foreigner in it,

33:28

but not like mainly. It was

33:30

lots of different things. It was

33:33

Nadra's own command over the eyes

33:35

of Tiamat. It was foreigner stuff,

33:37

but it was also the Carcosa

33:39

and insects. It was kind of

33:41

a little bit of everything to

33:43

give her sort of almost cosmic

33:46

level of power that she now enjoys.

33:48

Which does bring me to another

33:50

question, which is does Nadra create

33:52

the idea of the fecundity or

33:54

was that the eyes of Tiamat?

33:57

Like did the eyes of Tiamat

33:59

say like I want fecundity, or did

34:01

the eyes of Tiamat go, we

34:03

need like rampant life and to

34:05

take over things. I can answer

34:08

that, I can answer that quite

34:10

definitively. The eyes of Tiamat are

34:12

super, super powerful, and there is

34:14

sort of reality rewriting potential in

34:16

them. She did not succeed because

34:18

of Pierce. But what she was

34:21

doing was the ritual joining of

34:23

Tamuz and Ishtar, which is why

34:25

it's all about life. and fertility

34:27

and stuff. That was sort of

34:29

like, I guess the fuel to

34:31

the fire, whereas like the eyes

34:34

of Tiamat are like the spark.

34:36

So that's why when she wasn't

34:38

able to completely collapse multi- universality

34:40

into like a single plane, so

34:42

while she did not succeed, while

34:44

she failed in her main goal,

34:46

she still had this reality rewriting

34:49

command over this. ultimate fertility ritual

34:51

thing. And so yeah, her improvised

34:53

plan after Pierce screws are over

34:55

is I'm going to gain ultimate

34:57

control over life and biology and

34:59

basically slowly terraform the world over

35:02

bazillions of years into a place

35:04

where I cannot be opposed. The

35:06

lesson she learned is like she

35:08

tried to do her T amount

35:10

event to enact her ultimate plan

35:12

and a coalition of unlikely allied.

35:15

super powerful beings gave Pierce the

35:17

means to fuck her over. Because

35:19

it was Autumn's ending, it was

35:21

the Langclothed and Crows, it was

35:23

Henry Colfax, like a bunch of

35:25

forces that do not usually directly

35:28

collaborate with each other all got

35:30

together and it was like basically

35:32

playing a game of Munchkin. Someone's

35:34

about to gain the last level

35:36

and everyone just puts their differences

35:38

aside and bucks them over. Totally.

35:41

And so the lesson she took

35:43

from that is there's no point

35:45

in gathering the eyes of Tiamat

35:47

again and using them until I

35:49

have set the board in such

35:51

a way as no one can

35:54

possibly get to me because they

35:56

will just like kick over my...

35:58

house of cards again in the

36:00

middle of it if I if

36:02

I let them. Okay yes that

36:04

makes total sense. So her goal

36:07

is still the the fusion that

36:09

she just wants to like stack.

36:11

She has to completely change the

36:13

world and its metaphysical surroundings into

36:15

something where like she has the

36:18

maximum advantage. Right. But that one

36:20

point we had talked about, at

36:22

one point we had talked about

36:24

how there was a, the three,

36:27

right? The three and one, like

36:29

three of the eyes of Tiamat,

36:31

like didn't get along with the

36:33

other seven eyes of Tiamat, four

36:36

eyes of Tiamat. And we hadn't

36:38

really, we hadn't really talked about

36:40

why. So were the three there

36:43

being like, hey, what we really

36:45

need is something like. the Fekundity

36:47

or is the Fekundity the idea

36:49

of the Fekundity a holy Nardra

36:52

creation? I think it's Nardra's idea

36:54

because it's what she had to

36:56

work with. The argument and the

36:59

disagreement between the different eyes of

37:01

Tiamat is something that I'm gonna be

37:03

a little cagey about because I don't

37:05

know how close or like how directly

37:08

we're going to get into that as

37:10

the show comes to a close like.

37:12

Sure. There is a possibility that we

37:14

will learn a lot more about. Because

37:17

at this point, it's not even certain

37:19

that the eyes have agency or consciousness.

37:21

We don't know. Like, we just know

37:24

that three of them tended to work

37:26

differently than the others or have a

37:28

easier time being put together to work

37:30

on something than the others do or

37:33

something like that. But there hasn't

37:35

been a lot of direct experience

37:37

of them. Just the TMOT event

37:39

itself and like once in a

37:41

while a character interacting with someone

37:43

who has one of the eyes.

37:45

And then the other thing, and

37:47

we sort of touch again

37:50

on this, is the idea

37:52

of a battle, right, between

37:54

a great fire and the

37:56

fecundity, right? Yes. And which

37:58

is something that Nadrasaw... before

38:00

the fecundity was even like a

38:02

thing. She just saw the conflagration,

38:05

right? Yep. And we're assuming that

38:07

the conflag, like I think at

38:09

this point, we can feel pretty

38:11

comfortable that the conflagration is Mitch.

38:14

the fire that Mitch now carries.

38:16

Yeah, Mitch Walter and ultimately that

38:18

which breeds death, the like primordial

38:20

entity that represents like ultimate entropy

38:23

in the ending of all things.

38:25

Yeah, right, right. Which, but like,

38:27

interesting, you left, does it really?

38:30

Because if the fire goes, couldn't

38:32

the like conductors just like eat

38:34

the fire and be like, I

38:37

guess I'm shitting out a really

38:39

well placed plan. I mean, like,

38:41

maybe it probably wouldn't be fun

38:44

for a human scale. consciousness to

38:46

find out the answer to that.

38:48

Sure, probably not. Probably not. But

38:51

in some ways, by doing what

38:53

she did, didn't Nodra

38:55

just almost guarantee a

38:58

ultimate war between the

39:00

two of them? Oh yeah.

39:02

Right? For sure, because like, yeah,

39:05

one of the ultimate primordial forces

39:07

was very directly used in a

39:09

way that raises sort of the

39:11

stakes and escalates what's going on.

39:14

Like, life was always a thing,

39:16

but after Nodra used the eyes,

39:18

the fecundity was a thing. And

39:21

like... That is an escalation on

39:23

the concept of life and evolution

39:25

and biology and and sentience and

39:27

all that. And so, you know,

39:30

Tiamat and that which breathes death

39:32

are clearly diametrically opposed. Right. And

39:34

so by doing her own actions,

39:36

she ultimately creates the war she's

39:39

so like was said on not

39:41

doing. Kind of. Yeah. I mean,

39:43

because she saw what would happen

39:46

if the fire burned unchecked forever,

39:48

but then she gave... Through her

39:50

actions, she gave the fire things

39:52

that it was more motivated to

39:55

burn than ever before. Nadra

39:57

saw One Apocalypse and sort

39:59

of... basically created her own

40:01

apocalypse that she liked better. And

40:03

thus, whatever counts for the

40:05

attention or the ire of something

40:07

as large and impossible to

40:10

understand for humanity is that which

40:12

reads death. She has, it's

40:14

like, she is on its shit

40:16

list. Right. Yeah.

40:18

And so then that leads

40:20

me to, if that's the

40:22

case, that

40:24

makes like, I don't know,

40:27

I guess it kind of makes

40:29

the whole concept of like

40:31

Icarus even more fascinating because Pierce

40:33

gets burned when he makes

40:35

his decisions. But Nadra is also

40:37

in some ways burning herself.

40:39

I guess the whole net lesson

40:41

of this is don't get

40:43

too big kids. get too don't

40:45

don't dream big dream small.

40:48

We can't know. Well, just be

40:50

ready to have consequences. Yeah. Did

40:52

Kathleen kill a was that a expression

40:54

that Kathleen shot or was that

40:56

just like a thing? Amusingly, I don't

40:58

know if this is ever going

41:00

to come up. So maybe I can

41:02

just I'll just drop it here. That

41:05

was Walter on his way to

41:07

becoming a dragon. The

41:10

reason one of its limbs was

41:12

different was that Clarence was fused in

41:14

there. That's

41:17

fucking dope. You heard it here

41:19

first, folks. And it was his

41:21

sword arm. He was looking more

41:23

like that, which reads death, right?

41:26

There was insect and elephant time.

41:28

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

41:30

features going on. But over the

41:32

bazillions of years, he gained more

41:34

control over what he had and

41:37

his form shifted more into like

41:39

how Walter saw himself. Right. And

41:41

less like a direct offspring of

41:43

the primordial force that that he's

41:45

carrying a fragment of. That

41:47

is fucking hot. I feel

41:49

like there's like four or

41:52

five people right now listening

41:54

to it and their heads

41:56

are just exploding. Like, what?

41:58

Yeah, what? That was. the middle

42:00

stage between human walter and

42:02

dragon walter and dragon where he

42:04

was closer to being twisted

42:06

into the image of his sort

42:08

of patron i guess you

42:10

could say cool that's pretty dope

42:12

and that's why kathleen was

42:14

so instinctually motivated to fight against

42:16

it because part of that

42:19

which reads death is is ending

42:21

the lives of all things

42:23

including foreigners yeah like it's larger

42:25

than like it doesn't just

42:27

operate on earth right it operates

42:29

on everywhere yeah so i

42:31

mean in some ways like all

42:33

of this is just like

42:35

if we look at all these

42:37

characters and everything they're doing

42:39

it's really so much scrambling to

42:41

try to get up to

42:43

like life and tiamat and that

42:45

which breeds death they're trying

42:47

to get all the way up

42:49

there but none of them

42:51

are really there right like nadra

42:53

is so close but that's

42:55

she still doesn't get there right

42:58

she's still not that and

43:00

it's like everyone's just like and

43:02

darin when he was trying

43:04

to take over like tomu's back

43:06

when he and pierce were

43:08

in college like it's just people

43:10

being too big for their

43:12

britches and try and and and

43:14

like moon in right ultimate

43:16

too big for his britches dude

43:18

right right at the end

43:20

i mean i do appreciate we

43:22

get the we get the

43:24

little the little like a inkling

43:26

of joey coming up pretty

43:28

soon we get a little we

43:30

get the clearly i had

43:32

i had planned out what joey

43:34

was before recording this part

43:36

and sort of did the the

43:39

mcbethian introduction where you have

43:41

characters talking about him before you

43:43

actually have him on screen

43:45

famously employed also in bush cassidy

43:47

and the sundance kid right

43:49

exactly lefours uh yeah but like

43:51

you call him the kid

43:53

right like i love that like

43:55

you just like call him

43:57

the kid and he's like you're

43:59

like oh yikes the kid

44:01

ew like oh no and then

44:03

pretty soon we're gonna have

44:05

and the rest is history baby

44:07

right that he's just gonna

44:09

come in and be like let's

44:11

smoke a bowl like who

44:13

wants smoke this zombie juice or whatever and thus is born

44:15

one of the most favorite NPCs that's right of all time

44:18

yeah I mean I would assume that like Jack and Joey

44:20

are way way way way way way up the popularity charts

44:22

if we were to hold up hold a vote like what

44:24

they do in like Shone in like the Shone in magazine

44:26

like they're like who's everyone's favorite character Luffy always comes in

44:28

too because everyone loves shanks like yeah so my But last

44:30

question then, I guess this is a more

44:32

simple one that to go off on,

44:34

is was Moonin part of the Advent

44:36

project from the very beginning, like in

44:38

the 60s? Was like 20-year-old Moon in

44:41

there? Okay. I don't think he was

44:43

always part of the Advent project. He

44:45

was a cell facilitator and handler, and

44:47

obviously he was involved with the weapon-bearer

44:49

projects. And at some point either right

44:51

when we saw him do it, when

44:53

Mitch died, or sometime before then, uh,

44:55

you know, became sort of the architect

44:57

of the Sol Invictus takeover, because

45:00

obviously, like, Orpheus didn't

45:02

get everything exactly that

45:04

they wanted out of

45:07

the situation with Mitch

45:09

and Walter. He was

45:11

already spinning up his

45:14

own agenda at that

45:16

point. Mm-m-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm Although there's

45:18

some pretty, you're well, you're

45:20

welcome the people at home.

45:23

Mm-hmm. You're welcome for things.

45:25

Yeah, we did learn some

45:28

interesting stuff. Next dark is

45:30

Manhattan as Manhattan. Yep. playing

45:32

with a game with Dan

45:35

a nice meaty eight episode

45:37

arc yeah at the time

45:39

at the time the longest

45:42

arc to date like eight

45:44

we've certainly blown past that

45:46

now sure I know but

45:48

for a while eight landed

45:51

like eight was the longest

45:53

arc without Nick yeah take

45:55

that Nick that guy knows

45:57

how to draw a story

45:59

out He would have killed in

46:01

the serial publishing days Charles Dickens Yeah,

46:03

so but yeah, we'll be back next

46:06

time to discuss city on fire a

46:08

like I try not to pick my

46:10

favorite children But I fucking love the

46:13

city on fire arc. It's one of

46:15

my favorite arcs in season three. It's

46:17

a pretty good arc. It's not gonna

46:20

lie. It's a pretty good arc and

46:22

not just because I'm in it

46:24

So yeah, no, we're gonna have a

46:26

great time Thank you very much Ben

46:29

for joining me. For Laura Liars and

46:31

Liars I've been robbed. I continue to

46:33

be Manhattan. We'll see you all next

46:35

time. Good bye. Good wine.