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Gemini, Hi the football transfer windows open. How

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are my team stats looking? Gemini, the football The football transfer open. open. are How are my

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stats looking? Well, your team definitely has a lot of

0:58

star a lot Do you think we're going to

1:00

have a good season? you It's going to come

1:02

down to consistency have a a little bit of luck

1:04

on your side. to let you know if we

1:06

win. I'll be keeping an eye on the

1:08

scores. a Yeah, me too. luck Well, your team definitely has a lot of star power. Do you think we're gonna have a good season? It's gonna come... on your talking. let

1:10

you to Google Pixel 9

1:12

with an eye on the scores. Yeah, Gemini

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1:52

We've all been there. Standing on the

1:54

platform catching your breath, watching the last

1:56

train home pull away. Holiday Blues or

1:58

rainy day tucked up on the... It's

2:00

times like that when all

2:02

you want is a comforting

2:05

cuddle, a big old hug

2:07

that tells you everything's going

2:09

to be okay. And on

2:11

days like these, when it's

2:14

comfort you need, it has

2:16

to be Heinz. Nothing beats

2:18

the feeling of a warming

2:20

bowl of your favorite soup.

2:23

Heinz. Ah, that's better. World Cup

2:25

winners in the back again for

2:27

that's? Yeah, well, yeah. Charlottons in

2:29

the front, no. Eastern European Close

2:32

Protection Unit in the front. What

2:34

if us? OK, PPA, right? PPA

2:36

is, man. Isn't it really just

2:39

like in the black hat, no

2:41

man? Right, said Fred in the

2:43

front. It's like a roller coaster,

2:45

mate. It's a rollerco, so you

2:48

want to get the front seats?

2:50

Yeah, exactly. It is with

2:53

Flatter driving. Well, listen,

2:55

listen, we just get

2:57

to throw up on

2:59

you. I'm an experienced

3:01

operator. Alio and Katie

3:04

Daley McLean. Alongside me

3:06

in the front we've

3:08

got Thinking Woman's Crumpet,

3:10

Tom Shanklin. A.K.A. Tom

3:13

Shanklin. How's wife's

3:15

favourite? How's wife's favourite?

3:18

Are you? I've been

3:20

since I was 18. I'm just...

3:23

I do get a guy,

3:25

Thomas. Jimmy Somerville? Jimmy Somerville is the best way.

3:27

Yeah, Ian Dauy. That's what I'm... There's a few, there's a

3:29

few. They're all quite complimentary though, yours got a likable face,

3:31

haven't I? Mine are annoying, because I keep always get stuff

3:33

like Jason Statham and the rock and stuff like that. Boris

3:35

Stankovich, but he played... I do get Boris Stankovich, he played...

3:38

Okay, so you don't know how niche, how niche, nausea, your

3:40

men's rugby, rugby knowledge is, but he, but he's rugby knowledge

3:42

is, but he's, but he played, but he played, but he

3:44

played, but he played, but he said for, he said for,

3:46

he said for, he said for, he said for, he said

3:49

for, he said for, less than, for, for, for, for, for,

3:51

for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for,

3:53

for, for, for, for, for, for I don't want to get

3:55

dragged into a conversation about divorce. It was

3:57

very amicable Katie, but my ex-wife wants to

3:59

watch. into a pub and put her hand

4:01

on his back and said, hi darling, and

4:04

turn around and it was stanko, it wasn't

4:06

me. You know, she's married to me. They

4:08

got me to it. I got me honest,

4:10

my get, I was, we were racing ones,

4:12

it was school way and then walked in

4:14

and this lady tried to sew me some

4:17

head there, you know, go on lucky head

4:19

of a, lucky head. I told her to

4:21

do one. Well you're just a shit-tice and

4:23

fury. Big John fury, why? Don't worry, steady

4:25

on. Oh I like that. So on the

4:27

first, the inaugural stick to rugby. We've gone

4:30

quite big for our first one

4:32

in rugby terms. We've got Martin

4:34

Johnson coming on. We've gone large.

4:36

Lawrence has made the call so

4:38

it happened and Shanks we were

4:40

playing against Leicester for Saracens and

4:42

he punched our mate Robbie Russell.

4:45

Robby Russell opened him up. Open

4:47

him up like a zip and

4:49

John I got a yellow card

4:51

shawl but so did Robbie for

4:53

getting chinned. I'm going to ask

4:55

him about coaching because we've heard

4:57

a lot about 2003 the World Cup

4:59

obviously but him as a coach and

5:01

whether or not he's frustrated that England

5:04

haven't won a World Cup since 2003

5:06

or obviously quite happy. I've got a

5:08

bit smug about this. I've got to

5:10

be honest Jen, so my rate's always

5:13

my rate, whether we want to work

5:15

up. It's not changing. It's the same

5:17

when it goes up, just above inflation,

5:20

just got one more years. Four more

5:22

years. We don't win in Ireland. Where

5:24

are we going from here? You know,

5:26

start putting a bit of pressure on

5:28

the players. start putting a bit of pressure

5:30

on the team. I think as a fly

5:32

off I don't get our obsession

5:34

with not letting fly halves

5:37

play five halves. The opponent

5:39

is a generational player, isn't

5:41

he? He's turning into that,

5:43

which is fantastic for Rubby's

5:45

other world superstars. This well

5:47

supported God on me. The

5:50

moments like that you think

5:52

to yourself, I understand why

5:54

Eric Cantonard did what are

5:56

you? I felt like calling

5:58

him. one neck. I'm looking

6:00

to be alive. Stick to rugby is

6:02

brought to you by defender. Right, look.

6:05

I know we haven't started yet, Katie,

6:07

but I'm not joking, all right. Don't

6:09

block me out. The camera's just big

6:11

for me, this part. Okay. every time.

6:13

Remember the cinema? Remember I did it

6:16

in order the rings? Yeah. It was

6:18

heaving. It was in North London. Holloway.

6:20

Holloway. Holloway. And he's like going pastover.

6:22

Excuse me. Excuse me. Excuse me. Excuse

6:24

me. Excuse me. Excuse me. Excuse me.

6:26

He goes this. Oh. The podcast genre.

6:29

It's a great new world, John. It's

6:31

an amazing thing, isn't it? There's a

6:33

big, I heard someone say once, there's

6:35

a big bucket in the sky for

6:37

the podcast. We're going to put another

6:40

one in the bucket. Oh no, this

6:42

is going to be the government, this

6:44

one. A good many? I try to

6:46

avoid him, I did coal, is it?

6:48

I got two, when I was playing

6:50

for Saracen's early days, I got yellow

6:53

carded twice for punching you. Yeah. And

6:55

one of them was just, they're not

6:57

very good, they were like body shots

6:59

I think, and they were, I wasn't

7:01

very good at it. And then we

7:04

went into England camp, that was on

7:06

a Sunday and Monday morning, we went

7:08

from that game into England camp, obviously

7:10

I was holding bags for you lot.

7:12

I remember walking in and everyone was

7:14

laughing because I'd hit you and got

7:17

a yellow card at Watford. A couple

7:19

of times, there was not a mark

7:21

on you and I had a broken

7:23

hand. I can't, I can't train while

7:25

you while you while you training, punched

7:28

your training. Punch Lole, punched, punched, punched,

7:30

punched, punched, punched, punched, punched, punched, punched,

7:32

punched Lole. The whole thing John over

7:34

this is that every week one of

7:36

us brings a local delicacy and I

7:38

had a local delicacy from where we

7:41

are where we live. or whatever, so

7:43

I had... Where'd you live? I live

7:45

in Bath, so I had a summer

7:47

set, a summer set, a locally sourced

7:49

Tom or Hawk steak. No, you had

7:52

for dinner. Well, yeah, but I was

7:54

going to... Did you just eat it

7:56

all the time? I cooked too, so

7:58

I could slice one up, and I

8:00

did see it on your... Yeah, and

8:02

I did a chicken as well. There's

8:05

a lot of food. You're quite... You're

8:07

into your cooking, aren't you? I mean,

8:09

my eating. Yeah. I don't know where

8:11

I put it. I'm so lucky. I

8:13

don't know where I put it. I'm

8:16

so lucky. I cooked all this meat.

8:18

But I had, do you remember Ollie

8:20

Cone, who played, he played for Queens

8:22

for years in the second row, Bristol

8:24

and Queens, jollyhog. I had him over

8:27

and he's, he's a big man and

8:29

he ate it all. So it's all,

8:31

so I had a backup. I had

8:33

a backup, some bath soft cheese with

8:35

some like artisan crackers that were made

8:37

in bathwood. Anyway, all very nice, but,

8:40

but, I've got a lot of fleet

8:42

of children and I've got two poorly

8:44

toddlers at the moment and a poorly

8:46

wife at home and a poorly wife

8:48

at home. And this morning, I got

8:51

up at whatever time to come in

8:53

about half six. Cried me a river.

8:55

Heard a baby cry. My wife is

8:57

a legend, but she had a massive

8:59

sense of humor failure. And I think

9:01

the words were, you've woken her up,

9:04

thanks, fucking like you. And I thought,

9:06

I couldn't have tried any more lightly.

9:08

But the room I had to go

9:10

into to get into the kitchen is

9:12

underneath her bedroom. And I was so

9:15

scared. And my wife said, could you

9:17

just fucking go, is what she said.

9:19

the cheese and crackers, the cheese is

9:21

in the fridge, it's still in my

9:23

fridge, but my wife scared me this

9:25

morning, so I've left it at home.

9:28

You stop off at memory services. So

9:30

I got some... I got ginger and

9:32

I picked both up on the way.

9:34

So I've had one job and that's

9:36

it and I haven't done it. But

9:39

next week, next week, yeah? Yeah. You'll

9:41

do it next week, you won't cock

9:43

it up, will you? No. Right,

9:54

Johno, welcome. This is the first Sticks

9:57

of Rugby podcast with Defender. and with

9:59

you and we're going to start with

10:01

again. Oh Jesus. And can you not,

10:03

guys, can you not think of this

10:06

as forced fun? It's not synthetic fun.

10:08

No. It's truth or lies. Okay, so

10:10

I'm going to tell you, Lowell, you're

10:13

out of this one for a minute

10:15

because I think you probably know everything

10:17

about Johno at this point, a bit

10:20

too much. Shanks and Katie, I'm going

10:22

to give you a statement about Johno.

10:24

and you're going to decide whether you

10:26

think it's truth or lies. He's the

10:29

funniest guy you've ever met. He is,

10:31

yeah. Right. Johno comes from a sporting

10:33

family. His grandfather was a wrestler. True

10:36

or false? True. Right, to go false

10:38

or can I go with what I

10:40

want? Well, truth or lies. Go what

10:43

you want. Truth? Be Roman. Johno. Well,

10:45

that has actually made its way onto

10:47

probably Wikipedia or something, but it's actually

10:49

a lie. So you got it down

10:52

as true. Well, it says here your

10:54

great-grandfather was a wrestler, which is also

10:56

a lie, is it? So there's no

10:59

wrestlers in your family, is what you're

11:01

telling? Well... The first question, we don't

11:03

actually... It came up from somewhere. Can

11:05

we go to TMO, please? I said

11:08

to my old man, it's on my

11:10

paternal side, dad. I said to my

11:12

dad, what's going on with that, then?

11:15

He said, well, everyone, everyone used to

11:17

do a bit of wrestling. All right,

11:19

fine. There's John O. The rest who

11:22

wins that one, sorry. Right, there's no

11:24

question one, pod one. How many of

11:26

these are? We don't really know the

11:28

answer. We don't really know the answer.

11:31

Everything's going well, all right. You both,

11:33

I don't know, you both are wrong.

11:35

Johno represented New Zealand under 21 level,

11:38

touring Australia in 1990. New Zealand under

11:40

21s. Truth or lies. I know it's

11:42

the truth. Do you? You're not good

11:44

enough. We wouldn't get a tattoo. We

11:47

wouldn't get a tattoo. I was supposed

11:49

to go back the next year because

11:51

I had another year of eligibility. And

11:54

I said to John Hart I'd go

11:56

back the next year and I got

11:58

injured. I got injured at the end

12:01

of that. season New Zealand so I

12:03

couldn't I couldn't go back. We yeah

12:05

we we went to Australia played played

12:07

the Ossees in a curtain razor before

12:10

Australia France at the football stadium. They

12:12

like the lucky though in New Zealand

12:14

didn't they? Well I was only on

12:17

the bench because Cooksley was Mark Cooksley

12:19

was in the team with Blair Lassner

12:21

both all blacks and Cooksley got injured.

12:24

They played the New Zealand by barbarians

12:26

before and away he got injured and

12:28

I snook in there. False,

12:31

I say? False, I think it's ginger

12:33

nut. It's ginger nut, okay? I was

12:35

going to say that's... Yeah, exactly that.

12:38

It's too fancy. Yeah, it's a move,

12:40

isn't it? Yeah, it's a move, isn't

12:42

it? Yeah. I looked at him as

12:44

a hobnob. You're quite safe, mate. Because

12:47

if you're in the mood. There's not

12:49

many biscuits you'll reject, if you're in

12:51

the mood. Do you know who Eddie

12:53

Merc's? Oh mate. No Eddie Merc's? Guys.

12:56

No, Eddie Merc's. No, he doesn't. Flyer.

12:58

Go on tell us. It's cycling. I

13:00

always used to say, we used to

13:02

have this little expression, what would Eddie

13:05

Merc's do? Yeah, that's how I lived

13:07

my life, man. That's what he'd love,

13:09

what would Eddie Merc's do? Tour de

13:11

France legend. Oh nice. Well also Girod

13:14

Italian. Girod was like a legend. Every

13:16

race he had the record over Cavendish.

13:18

Yeah most Tour de France win stage

13:20

wins wasn't it until Mark Cavendish? Was

13:23

he 34 or 35 he'd won Eddie

13:25

Merks? Fair play. Yeah. I mean he

13:27

would have been in the lead in

13:29

one stage of the Tour de France

13:32

longer than Mark Cavendish should have been

13:34

in the lead in all of his

13:36

wins combined. Yeah, he did have the

13:38

win. Okay Johno briefly played American football

13:41

for the Leicester for the Leicester Pantherss.

13:43

Truth or lies? True. You? Lie. Do

13:45

you know? True. True. True. And were

13:48

you a... Were you a Travis County

13:50

tie-end? I try to be a bit

13:52

of a tie-end. A punton as well.

13:54

I did quite a kick in. A

13:57

John Hills. Yeah, to kick it. In

13:59

the decade they called the 80s, if

14:01

anyone knows. You love American football, don't

14:03

you? Still into it. I mean, in

14:06

that era, people forget there was nothing

14:08

on television. There were kids. There were

14:10

kids. There's an hour. So, someone said

14:12

to me today they watched Ski Sunday

14:15

recently, reminiscing about, because on a Sunday

14:17

there was nothing on TV, and then

14:19

there was Rugby Special, then there was

14:21

Ski Sunday, and then Channel 4 brilliantly

14:24

slotted the American football at 6 o'clock

14:26

on a Sunday evening, and it was

14:28

like watching a sport from another. universe.

14:30

I used to watch Campani on Channel

14:33

4 like the moderns. You missed the

14:35

phrase in the middle mate. So I've

14:37

been watching for 40 years. Last of

14:39

mine. Didn't we see you, didn't I

14:42

see you over with the San Francisco

14:44

49ers doing something? Yeah the documentary out

14:46

there and God was a few years

14:48

ago, yeah it was all good fun.

14:51

Yeah I said yeah I just always

14:53

like to watch it and it was

14:55

so different particularly where you think Robby

14:57

was in those days. Question though, so

15:00

now you look at like an NFL,

15:02

the Skid Boys going across, Wadi, would

15:04

you have done that? Would you have

15:06

taken that opportunity? Halfway. Yeah, thank you.

15:09

NFL, pathway. As a game to play,

15:11

rugby I found far more enjoyable because

15:13

you're far more involved. It's very singular,

15:16

very singular. This is your role, this

15:18

is your job, do that little bit

15:20

and then the play stops and you

15:22

do your role again. So rugby I

15:25

always found a far... But if someone

15:27

had said to you go out and

15:29

go to... I played with a kid,

15:31

a lad, who went out and played,

15:34

he went to high school for a

15:36

year in the States and played college

15:38

football out there. So that would have

15:40

been tempting, wouldn't it? Because the glamour

15:43

of it would have been tempting. Very

15:45

different. And 30 million quid a year.

15:47

Well, everyone talks about the money, it

15:49

is incredibly ruthless sport. re-Semitism. Yeah, the

15:52

lads in 63, then 63. The lads

15:54

at the bottom of the food chain.

15:56

Your contract's not guaranteed. So when re-Semitism

15:58

signed his contract and started, you know,

16:01

he's got a contract, I'll ever, no,

16:03

no, no, you have to earn, you

16:05

don't have to go to training camp,

16:07

get in the squad. So you can,

16:10

you can literally sign a contract Monday,

16:12

the next day they get in the

16:14

office, I'll have released you. You only

16:16

allowed so many on the squad and

16:19

who's in it and who isn't? Yeah,

16:21

it's a bit better. Right. John knows

16:23

a Liverpool fan. Truth or lies? Oh,

16:25

lie. True. True. True. You want rubbish?

16:28

Favorite player ever. Ray Kennedy. Oh, great

16:30

man. The Lake, right. One of us

16:32

born. One of the European Cup. So,

16:35

against real Madrid. Glory hunter hunter? Yes.

16:37

But my... My dad was a Liverpool

16:39

fan, went to Liverpool Union, supported him.

16:41

So in the 70s when you're growing

16:44

up, your dad's Liverpool fan, it's easy.

16:46

I remember the kid thinking, why would

16:48

anyone support anyone else? Because they're just

16:50

winning everything. And they're on the telly

16:53

all the time, because they're on the

16:55

telly all the time. Because you could

16:57

watch everything, because you couldn't watch everything,

16:59

and there was only limited amount of

17:02

TV. Ray Kennedy was a midfielder. and

17:04

know a bit more than everyone else.

17:06

But Ray Kennedy was a cool cat,

17:08

he was smooth, he was suave. And

17:11

our brother, sister pod, stick to football,

17:13

Jimmy Carrick. Liverpool legend, take it you're

17:15

a big fan of Jamie Carricker. Can

17:17

you just say you are? Because he's

17:20

sort of... I did his podcast I

17:22

think, a couple of years ago. Did

17:24

you like him? Did you get on

17:26

with? It's all right? Is it all

17:29

right? Is it real? No offense. I

17:31

don't know. I don't know. I don't

17:33

know. I don't know either. I'm not

17:35

that one. True. False. Law's got 85,

17:38

John's got 84. Oh! There you go.

17:40

I know money, it's probably about 115

17:42

now. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. When Johno

17:44

was the manager, England manager, he introduced

17:47

meditation sessions for all England players in

17:49

desk week. True for lies. I don't

17:51

know. True, true. On the way to

17:53

England's victory parade in London after they

17:56

won the World Cup in 2003, the

17:58

bust missed the turn off to pick

18:00

up the captain and he was forced

18:03

to walk down the hard shoulder of

18:05

the M1. It's too random to be

18:07

false. It's true. True story? Were you

18:09

with Benny K as well? Me and

18:12

Ben. And you didn't pick up a

18:14

golf cart. I'm doing, you know, stupid.

18:16

There's easier ways. Lucky to be alive.

18:18

Right, Six Nations, right? Week one, you

18:21

got France, Wales on Friday, you got

18:23

Scotland, Ireland, England, Saturday. I read, I

18:25

remember you talking, John O'Connor, the Six

18:27

Nations Grand Slam win in 03 against

18:30

Ireland as one of the biggest games

18:32

of the biggest games of your life.

18:34

And actually, one of the only times...

18:36

you feel the sort of the hair

18:39

stand up on the back of your

18:41

neck, fields of Athens, Ryan, all that

18:43

big day. We actually didn't really, we

18:45

weren't playing like amazing rubber or anything,

18:48

but we're going for a Grand Slam

18:50

again and it's Ireland the way. And

18:52

surprisingly for most people they were going

18:54

for a Grand Slam. On the Wednesday

18:57

before we went out to Ireland when

18:59

we had a sort of team meeting

19:01

with Woody and he'd always go on.

19:03

He actually, he said to us, he

19:06

said to us, Listen, what you've been

19:08

through in the last few years is

19:10

ridiculous. It's crazy. We should have won

19:12

New York's Grand Slams. And he actually

19:15

said, look, there's nowhere for this team

19:17

to go if you lose on Sunday.

19:19

Yeah, it is so. Yeah, which is,

19:21

I sat there, it's a big statement,

19:24

right? So if you got, if you,

19:26

if we want to win it up,

19:28

you have to win. There's nowhere for

19:31

this team. This is World Cup year.

19:33

He's not picking, you know, anyone else,

19:35

because this is England team. That point

19:37

was pretty established team. There's nowhere for

19:40

this team to go if you lose

19:42

on Sunday. And normally when you have,

19:44

you know, we've all been in a

19:46

million meetings. You don't talk about you

19:49

got to win this meeting. You got

19:51

to win this game. I remember him

19:53

saying it, I think in Jesus that

19:55

is a massive call. Then I thought,

19:58

you know what, you're absolutely right. He

20:00

put the pressure, he put the pressure

20:02

right back on the scene. He wasn't

20:04

taking the pressure off, exactly, he wasn't

20:07

saying, well, not just another game, lads.

20:09

Yeah. So we had that, we had

20:11

a, it sort of added to the

20:13

mindset and we just had that thing,

20:16

but sometimes when you get into big

20:18

games, people like to talk about rugby

20:20

and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,

20:22

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,

20:25

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,

20:27

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Win

20:29

it. Win it. Win it. Win it.

20:31

Win it. Win it. Win it, You

20:34

know, when you win games like that,

20:36

you win, you win, you win, you

20:38

win, you win, the winner, Grand Slam.

20:40

We'd lose in these Grand Slams. We

20:43

were scoring tries, we're playing some beautiful

20:45

rugby, blah blah blah blah. We didn't

20:47

win in 90% of our games, but

20:49

the only one people remember is the

20:52

one. Yeah, when England Wales rolls around

20:54

every year, the BBC have got that

20:56

99 game on constant loop. We've got

20:59

record points in to them either side

21:01

of that game. No one ever had

21:03

any other side of that game. So,

21:05

no one ever had any other side

21:08

of that game. we have a drop

21:10

goal that goes off the back of

21:12

someone's head and goes over. We've got

21:14

a grand slam and that's put to

21:17

bed and we can move on. So

21:19

we were touring then from the Hemisphere

21:21

World Cup. So it was a big

21:23

big match. You know what? When we

21:26

went out and normally the night before

21:28

you get told about protocol of, you

21:30

know, there's a minute silence, etc. No

21:32

one had said a word source. And

21:35

in my opinion, what people don't realize

21:37

is that when you're speaking to a

21:39

full- you know, rational human being. You

21:41

know, you're about to go into a

21:44

problem. Yeah, terrible. What's the promise of

21:46

him in an environment? So we got

21:48

dressed on, we got changed, sorry. We've

21:50

got changed on the right-hand side of

21:53

the stadium, so we ran out right.

21:55

Well, we also warmed up that side.

21:57

We'd also warmed up that side, and

21:59

we were playing that way. They won

22:02

the toss, and they were playing, they

22:04

chose them to play that way. Isn't

22:06

that after all the stuff you've achieved,

22:08

people always ask you about the carpet?

22:11

Normally, I do remember it, right? If

22:13

you're in Ireland, that will come up

22:15

very, very quickly. Yeah. But the thing

22:18

as well, we were lined up, we

22:20

were lined up, and it was, and

22:22

it was, it was, it was, they

22:24

sent out... they sent out... I

22:27

think it was the groundsman's assistant. I asked

22:29

me to move. And that was the point

22:31

before a game. You were three minutes on

22:34

four minutes from going into it and it's

22:36

a huge game. It sounds ridiculous when you

22:38

sat there years later having a coffee. It

22:40

feels ridiculous when you sat there years later

22:43

having a coffee. It feels like you feel

22:45

like do or die. I mean the coach

22:47

is saying, you know where to go if

22:49

you lose this game. And he's my last

22:52

six nations, I probably knew it. And also

22:54

the island crab was up to it, because

22:56

normally we'd been there and they'd be underdogs

22:58

and their crab would be into it. The

23:00

further was immense. And when they sang Fields

23:03

of Athens and Rye, that's the only time

23:05

I've ever had that experience of my life.

23:07

Before the game, you thought we're on here.

23:09

It was funny though, the black came out.

23:12

I mean, I can't remember, but I actually

23:14

remember, the black came out, I said, Mr.

23:16

Johnson, Mr. Lelliea, will you call in your

23:18

mind moving to the other side of the

23:21

other side of the other side of the

23:23

pitch? As soon as we said no first

23:25

the crowd went, I was obviously gesticulating, I

23:27

was very animated, the crowd went berserk, the

23:30

crowd went, I was obviously gesticulating, I was

23:32

very animated, the crowd went berserk, the crowd

23:34

went berserk, because they were right there, it

23:36

was the old lands down. You're never going

23:39

to move then, wasn't it? Get on with

23:41

a game, you're not, because you get messed

23:43

around a bit when you play as much

23:45

as you're away from home at times. There's

23:48

people want to mess you around and try

23:50

and be clever. And the blazers are all

23:52

there. Leave a shit in the toilet when

23:54

you go. No one's funny though. But let

23:57

him float him in there and look when

23:59

he realized this poor man that the red

24:01

mist had come down often. He says to

24:03

Jonathan Kaplan, the referees, from South Africa, he

24:05

says, you know, can you kindly ask Mr

24:08

Johnson and the guy, and to be fair,

24:10

the referees, they're not, they're not known for

24:12

being terribly, sort of amusing, but he said,

24:14

there's no chance of these two listening to

24:17

me. when the game kicks off let alone

24:19

before we did it. Well he didn't want

24:21

to cap him, didn't want to know that

24:23

he just stayed out. No blame him, it's

24:26

an iconic moment. Well it could be a

24:28

iconic moment. But if everyone says well that

24:30

was when you won the loss of game.

24:32

Because no one really talked about it afterwards.

24:35

The thing is... Did you move? No. No.

24:37

Ireland came out and went to the other

24:39

side of us. They moved. Okay so then

24:41

they missed the Irish president. The Irish president

24:44

came out. before the game that's all we

24:46

and they they then say oh you made

24:48

a walk on the grass the actual truth

24:50

of it is the island boys made a

24:53

walk on the grass because we still have

24:55

the red car but you know we were

24:57

lucky enough to go on a win that

24:59

game comfortably but I tell you what that

25:02

first half it was it was nine three

25:04

nine six a half three proper they always

25:06

said of people they played better in oh

25:08

three than they did a no one on

25:10

the beaters what about this weekend so all

25:13

opinions welcome you played fly off for a

25:15

this weekend. Bear in mind, people are going

25:17

to see this before the team's announced, after

25:19

the team's announced and all that, sitting here

25:22

before the England team is announced, Ireland England

25:24

in Dublin, if you pick a team. You

25:26

go to Marcus Smith and you put Finnsmith

25:28

on the bench, look, he's great, he's great,

25:31

he's great, he's great, he's great, he's great,

25:33

he's great, he's great, he's great, he's great,

25:35

he's great, he's on the bench, look, he's

25:37

on the bench, look look, he's great, he's

25:40

great, look, he's great, he's great, look, he's

25:42

great, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he

25:44

put, he put, he put, he's on the,

25:46

he put, he's on the, he's on the,

25:49

he put, he put, he's on the, he's

25:51

on the, he's on the, he's on the,

25:53

he's on the and they were very set

25:55

on that and I think for us I

25:58

think that's part of England's problem for me

26:00

at the moment when you have different for

26:02

half for different things and nobody's really sure.

26:04

Yeah well I mean I well first of

26:07

all going back to this point if you're

26:09

Steve Borthwick you look at those players you

26:11

go where you go if we don't win

26:13

in Ireland where we're going from here you

26:15

know start putting a bit of pressure on

26:18

the players start putting a bit of pressure

26:20

on the team because last time we played

26:22

Ireland we just lost to Scotland and we

26:24

were in a mess at Twickenham and the

26:27

players responded so I think they need that

26:29

pressure I think Itoji is you know he's

26:31

the guy to take him over there and

26:33

2019 was the last time I think we

26:36

have this thing that you know someone's gonna

26:38

produce some magic at 10 how many how

26:40

many times does that happen for anyone? There's

26:42

no so little space there. Most of the

26:45

time, your tens facilitate in the game for

26:47

everyone else to play. You know, England Island,

26:49

opening of six nations, it's going to be,

26:51

it's going to be full, it's going to

26:54

be like full on speed. You've got to

26:56

try and control a game like that is

26:58

hard enough. I think it's that second wave

27:00

though, after when you get the ball out

27:03

the back when the 10 comes down the

27:05

corner. Yeah. I think Marker Smith is really

27:07

good at that of picking that. experience is

27:09

a huge thing. When you explain test match

27:12

rubby to people, you know, when you've got

27:14

kids, you're coaching kids, they think the games

27:16

are all that flash little. And that's great.

27:18

That's not test much rubby. That's not test

27:20

much rubby. That's not test much rubby. Test

27:23

much rubby is do your job. If you

27:25

can do your job, okay, and when everyone

27:27

can do their job, then you might put

27:29

it together to get someone opportunity to do

27:32

something. If you think it's all gonna be,

27:34

you'll get on the big game. Because I

27:36

think for me the thing that makes a

27:38

difference is you test my drug piece about

27:41

small moments it's about creating something one-on-one you

27:43

have to have you have to have done

27:45

yeah of course you have to have done

27:47

yeah of course you have to have done

27:50

everything else you have to have done everything

27:52

else you have to have done all those

27:54

other bits right but that's on those around

27:56

you have 20 points down and I get

27:59

that but I think the reason for me

28:01

where you would sit where you would sit

28:03

there would sit there would sit there because

28:05

if you would sit there would sit there

28:08

would sit there because if you would sit

28:10

there would sit there would sit there because

28:12

if you would sit there would sit there

28:14

would sit there because if you would sit

28:17

there would sit there would sit there would

28:19

sit there would sit there would sit there

28:21

because if you would sit there would sit

28:23

there would sit there would sit there would

28:25

sit there would sit there would sit there

28:28

would sit there would sit there because I

28:30

would sit there would sit there because I

28:32

would sit there because I would sit there

28:34

milliseconds it's about half meters it's not about

28:37

full clean gaps he gives you the opportunity

28:39

to give somebody else an edge to me

28:41

as that was a meter yeah and that

28:43

for me is the difference I totally get

28:46

what you're saying around everybody has to do

28:48

their bit I would have liked to have

28:50

seen Finn Smith have more game time than

28:52

he's had up to now. Also, there's not

28:55

that much quick boarding international rugby because the

28:57

size of the forwards on teams like France

28:59

and Ireland, you know, it's very very hard.

29:01

So you've got to manage the game, you

29:04

know, your kicking game becomes so much more

29:06

part of it. A lot more. And I'm

29:08

not saying that Marcus Miss doesn't have a

29:10

kicking game, but I'm still not entirely convinced

29:13

that we've got the balance right between kick

29:15

and running. And the other things, Ireland have

29:17

got... or unsettled at 10. Well this is

29:19

an interesting one, so you've got Finn Smith

29:22

isn't his experience for example. Whoever plays Crowley

29:24

or Prendegast chanks, they're pretty, they're relatively inexperienced

29:26

too. And I want to ask you, Prendegast

29:28

seems to be the kitty, but Crowley's come

29:30

flying back, is in really good form. And

29:33

I just wonder, like, I'm watching Prendergast, and

29:35

every time he gets the ball, I think,

29:37

geez, how is this guy so young? He

29:39

was good against Quinn. How good is this

29:42

guy? He looks fantastic. Sorry, he's good against

29:44

Bob. But then I wonder, there are a

29:46

couple of times where he got skilled. But

29:48

then I wonder, there are a couple of

29:51

times where he got skittled in defense, I

29:53

mean three or a couple of times where

29:55

he got skittled in and think. Actually he

29:57

needs those five or ten kilos that people

30:00

are talking about or if who would you

30:02

stick in it? You need a good set

30:04

piece You know to put pressure on teams

30:06

attack because if if you're an attacking team

30:09

you've got a good set piece I think

30:11

it's quite easy So if your line out's

30:13

good and your scrum's good. It's quite easy

30:15

to target say a printed asset 10, you

30:18

know if that's disrupted then England are They've

30:20

fairly settled their centers, so they know how

30:22

they want to attack. So that won't change

30:24

much, whether it's Bundy or whether it's Henshaw.

30:27

England is still a little bit unsettled there.

30:29

So the combinations, I think, outside 10 work.

30:31

Jameson Gibson Park, he's going to play. And

30:33

then, you know, you look at the back

30:35

three. You look at Keenan's back now, James

30:38

Low's going to come back, Matt Hansen's going

30:40

to come back from it. I think it's

30:42

fairly settled. I think that's probably, I think,

30:44

going to be a big positive fright. And

30:47

when you look at England, whether you pick

30:49

Fitzsmith or Marker Smith, outside of that, you

30:51

still don't know what the combination is going

30:53

to be. Just very quickly on that game,

30:56

the last time England beat Ireland, I think

30:58

it was a unbelievable performance. Marker Smith of

31:00

course got their headlines because he'd last minute

31:02

drop goal, but the forwards were immense, were

31:05

immense. George Martin was immense, olive chess and

31:07

you know, and if England are to do

31:09

anything over there, they're forwards, they're forwards, and

31:11

you know, the test match rugby is about,

31:14

with all due respect, the big boys sorting

31:16

out their big boys, and then having the

31:18

quality at 9 and 10 and 10 and

31:20

outside to make the most of that. If

31:23

they win that game though, you look at

31:25

the fixtures, they could go on to win

31:27

the ground slash. Well, I mean, Wales... I

31:29

mean, I'm just trying to... I'm just trying

31:32

to turn the... I'm just trying to turn

31:34

the guns on the team. Just without one

31:36

or two to dramatise it, where does Welsh

31:38

rugby go from here? We look at the

31:40

second game in. First game, France, that is

31:43

the way. France away. Nine-15 kickoff French time.

31:45

That is going to be really tough with

31:47

it. And I've got to commentate. Late late

31:49

night. Night. Night. Nighting. Italy away second game

31:52

won the wooden spoon last year. Italy away

31:54

is going to be tough Italy could go

31:56

all right you know yeah they could go

31:58

right Zebra one recently Benetton beat La Rochelle

32:01

recently if you're in Paris right you have

32:03

a tough game probably likely to lose you

32:05

travel straight to Rome don't you know don't

32:07

you don't mess about coming home yeah I

32:10

think they're going to stay in France so

32:12

they're going to go straight to Rome they'll

32:14

come back to Wales but that is the

32:16

big one because if we beat Italy's and

32:19

everyone predictions for the winner of the tournament,

32:21

the player of the tournament. and the wooden

32:23

spoon. Yeah, top team, bottom team, best player.

32:25

So, okay, I'll go first just to calm

32:28

everyone. England's right. Five winners, who's your winner?

32:30

France win. Okay, France win, but everyone loses

32:32

at least one game. No gras. I don't

32:34

think there'll be a grand slam. I think

32:37

the reason France win is that they're just,

32:39

they're scoring so many points at the moment

32:41

with the likes of Bier, Bier, Bury and

32:43

Pinz, and DuPont. I can't see them going

32:45

to Dublin and to Twicken... Antibac's back as

32:48

well. I'm with him. France win. France win.

32:50

France win. They get more bonus points. Because

32:52

they score so many times. Yeah. John know

32:54

who wins are six nations. That makes sense.

32:57

Look, the six nations is probably three leagues

32:59

at the moment, isn't it? Ireland and France

33:01

are the top. It's not mean. Not rocket

33:03

science. Scotland, England, England, the middle and... So

33:06

you can say that. So England and Scotland,

33:08

so England and Scotland are trying to beat

33:10

one of, England think, well if they win

33:12

four games, they beat one of Ireland and

33:15

France and win the other games, it's not

33:17

a championship and... I tell you, so you're

33:19

only Tupolatu not being fit now. I reckon

33:21

that's bigger than Finn Russell. Well, not being

33:24

fit. Honestly. You're out of order. If France

33:26

is going to go to go to Ireland.

33:28

So you should say you go and just...

33:30

They've always had very very good players. If

33:33

they go and play their best rock band,

33:35

they've got a chance to win the championship.

33:37

You'll say it. Everyone's naked. France, just. Yeah,

33:39

probably just. France, Ireland, France. France, okay. Who's

33:42

going to finish last? Mills, no offense. Lantecan?

33:44

Go on, John, I've, I've, I'm going to

33:46

say Italy, Italy. It's very... Go on, John,

33:48

John, I took it in. I mean I,

33:50

you know. I just have to get my

33:53

passport stamped when I went to Italy because

33:55

they put me into the army because... Whalensen

33:57

is a national conscript. Yeah, if you believe

33:59

it, that would be a treat being the

34:02

Italian army. Whales. Whales, right. Best. I'm desperate

34:04

to say someone other than Antoine DuPont, but

34:06

watching all the European games. Well, it's a

34:08

bit like, you know, you're like, it's just,

34:11

it's a bit like Frankel, if he's running,

34:13

okay. Yeah, it's like, who would you do?

34:15

He just looks like he's like, he's like,

34:17

he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like,

34:20

he's like, he's like, he's, Yeah, Gibson Park,

34:22

B-L-B-R-E, I think that's the park. I think

34:24

Caleb Doris won't be far away. The Pont

34:26

is a generational player, isn't he? He's turning

34:29

into that, which is fantastic for a big

34:31

other world superstar. Amazing. Enjoy

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35:44

defender. Right, I want to talk about

35:46

captaincy please. Lawrence you were England captain.

35:48

I've forgotten why that ended and it

35:50

was given to John. Any awkwardness? What

35:52

happened? I'll tell you what happened. Well

35:55

for a start when I came into

35:57

the England team I wasn't England captain.

35:59

and when I left England team I

36:01

was an England captain so there's no

36:03

there's no divine right or desire to

36:05

be England captain actually but John O

36:07

was skipper in the lines in 97

36:10

which we'll get on to which was

36:12

probably our greatest one of our greatest

36:14

ever rugby experiences and then Clive for

36:16

some strange reason shows me as England

36:18

captain and Do you think he thought

36:20

you were unmanageable otherwise? Uncaptainable. You didn't

36:23

know it. You've only got to know

36:25

you for five minutes to think how

36:27

he's going to captain it. I didn't

36:29

know it. Anyway, listen, going back to

36:31

1999, obviously we had that terrible decision

36:33

that I made. I don't forget Johno

36:35

look at me in the game. We

36:38

lost because of my decision, but we

36:40

gave away so many penalties in the

36:42

first half that we was whatever. I'm

36:44

still taking the blame. And Johno, you

36:46

sure that's the right cool. And I

36:48

went. Yeah, and to be fair, he

36:51

backed me. He probably should have said,

36:53

no, I'll change your mind. Anyway, he

36:55

backed me, okay? And it was a

36:57

terrible decision. And do you know what

36:59

made it even worse? We lost. It

37:01

was probably the worst feeling I've ever

37:03

had as a player when I had

37:06

to walk all the way back off

37:08

the pitch with my mates. And not

37:10

only of Wales beaten us in Wembley.

37:12

Can you imagine? You was dreaming playing

37:14

at Wembley at Wembley. Right. But not

37:16

at home game against Wales. It meant

37:19

that Scotland won the last ever five

37:21

nations title as well. So it's a

37:23

double, it's a double savvy. And as

37:25

I'm walking off down the tunnel, I

37:27

knew it was all down to me

37:29

really. And this well supported gobbed on

37:31

me, right? Straight in the face, right?

37:34

Massive greening, straight in my face. And

37:36

the moments like that, you just think

37:38

to yourself, I understand why Eric Cantonah

37:40

did what he did. I felt like

37:42

I just kung food in him into

37:44

the... And I walked into that dressing

37:47

room and it was like death. I

37:49

mean there were growing many tears. And

37:51

I don't know, winning and losing is

37:53

very different nowadays. I mean we hated

37:55

losing. I didn't speak to anyone for

37:57

about six or seven days, I don't

37:59

think I didn't go out of the

38:02

house. I was on the front page

38:04

in the news the world. So that

38:06

didn't work out to the world. I

38:08

should have stayed in. I got to

38:10

be honest with it. It wasn't my

38:12

finest week. I went deep underground in

38:15

disguise and yeah, John O was made

38:17

in captain. You're still here, mate, yeah.

38:19

Yeah, the news is the world aren't,

38:21

correct. Correct, ma'am. So you get made

38:23

captain, John O, and I think there's

38:25

a... What happens is, when people look

38:28

back on your career and while you're

38:30

a captain, they say, well, you're obvious

38:32

choice. obvious leader. Was that, did you

38:34

feel like, you don't want to call

38:36

yourself an obvious leader, but did you

38:38

slip quite comfortably into that role of

38:40

man amongst men? Well I think what

38:43

people don't realise is that I was

38:45

still me when I wasn't captain and

38:47

Lawrence was still him when he wasn't

38:49

captain, so he wasn't captain, so he

38:51

still did the same job more or

38:53

less than the team. You still, you

38:56

know, we've all got our own personalities

38:58

and why we do their job. How

39:00

teams work often, particularly then, maybe it's

39:02

a bit more structured now. They just

39:04

do. Guys, you know, come in, they

39:06

just take roles as they sort of

39:08

fix their personality. Some guys are very,

39:11

very quiet and they won't say anything,

39:13

but they'll lead with their... with their

39:15

actions and what they're doing. Richard Hill

39:17

would be a classic example of that.

39:19

Did you speak to a lot before

39:21

you, like once that kind of change

39:24

had happened, did you guys have a

39:26

conversation, it was just like, Martin's in,

39:28

I'm going to follow him now, right?

39:30

Well, you didn't go on tour, did

39:32

you, didn't go to the Australia? So,

39:34

he was off, was it? I was

39:36

up for, I was on a charge

39:39

of bringing the game into disrepute. I

39:41

think I spoke to you briefly on

39:43

the phone before we went to Thailand

39:45

for that. And then when we came

39:47

back, it was sort of, we'll just

39:49

get on with the World Cup camp

39:52

really, so it was... I mean to

39:54

be fair, we were, you know, listen,

39:56

it was... How long were you captain

39:58

of Leicester? I mean I was captain

40:00

of right the way through to 2007,

40:02

so, you know... You were captain of

40:04

Leicester for a long long time. I

40:07

mean, I think there should be a

40:09

ruling that every club in the Premiership

40:11

should be captain by an England player.

40:13

And, you know, you get that experience

40:15

because being a captain, you know, yes,

40:17

everyone does their jobs, but it is

40:20

something that you can become better and

40:22

better at the more you play, because

40:24

you become a better rugby player. And

40:26

you've got good people around you. And

40:28

I don't think England have had anywhere

40:30

near enough. leadership within the senior playing

40:32

group for a long, long time. Maritoges

40:35

only just become captain of Saracens. He's

40:37

a world class player, but he's still,

40:39

you know, still finding his way in

40:41

terms of how to capture him. Before

40:43

like 2005, we used to look at

40:45

like one we'd play England and we'd

40:48

look up the players on the team

40:50

shit. They'd be like, melon, nugget, jughead.

40:52

The grub. Bonkai. Bonk. Bonk. Bonk. Bonn.

40:54

Swan neck. Do you remember he walked

40:56

into the well-stressing room and somehow they

40:58

had these joint... Oh, we had them,

41:01

did we? Life-side cutouts, right? On the

41:03

Friday, when he went to the stadium

41:05

on the Friday for a little look

41:07

around. The entire well-room. Went in the

41:09

changing room and all the cutouts when

41:11

the... Yeah. Try and scared. Do you

41:13

look back to 2003 and there you

41:16

play? I think I'm right and say

41:18

you play every minute of every game.

41:20

I've never thought of this until... today

41:22

but you were England captain then you

41:24

weren't but you're still in the team

41:26

John knows captain he's the person who

41:29

lifts that world up is there any

41:31

part of you that thinks That could

41:33

have been me or does that not

41:35

enter the mind? No, don't be silly.

41:37

I was just, I'm a proud Englishman,

41:39

doesn't matter. And to be honest, John,

41:41

I've looked very awkward lifting it up.

41:44

It's quite a bit. You're not quite

41:46

a buffist. It's not like an innocent,

41:48

he's got a lot of experience lifted,

41:50

I promise you now. John is absolutely

41:52

right, in that changing room, if I

41:54

had something to say, I didn't need

41:57

to be catching it, yeah. We had...

41:59

We had so many players who'd all

42:01

captain, and Johnny was captain at Newcastle,

42:03

Phil Vichur was captain at Gloucester, I

42:05

was, Matt Dawson was captain at Northampton,

42:07

John O' was at Leicester. We'd been

42:09

together with a team a long, long

42:12

time as well. You can be bored

42:14

of listening to people after a while.

42:16

What did realize, what I did realize,

42:18

is that the relief of winning that

42:20

tournament, a bit like everything else, was,

42:22

it was there. And when we were

42:25

in that dressing and afterwards, I think

42:27

we've all said this a couple of

42:29

this a couple of this a couple

42:31

of this a couple of this a

42:33

couple of this a couple of this

42:35

a couple of a couple of, a

42:37

couple of, a couple of, a couple

42:40

of, I knew that that was the

42:42

best feeling we ever had because it'd

42:44

been a long journey, you know, six

42:46

years from 97- 2003. We get in

42:48

that dresser and we shut the door.

42:50

Eventually, you know, John Howe was throwing

42:53

the medals on us. And there was

42:55

no camera phones, there was none of

42:57

that nonsense going on. There was just

42:59

unbridled joy. You're on your mates. I

43:01

mean, there were people in tears, there

43:03

were people, you know, just so happy.

43:05

And you just wanted to hold on

43:08

to that, because for that, because for

43:10

that, because for that hour, because for

43:12

that hour, because for that hour, you

43:14

knew, you knew, you knew, as soon

43:16

as soon as soon as soon as

43:18

soon as soon as that door opened

43:21

that door opened again, that door opened

43:23

again, that our lives would change it.

43:25

I mean, you know, he walked out

43:27

and retired the next week, I think.

43:29

Right at the top. Yeah. I think,

43:31

I think in terms of captaincy, that's

43:33

as easy as it gets, because you're

43:36

dealing with a hugely experienced, settled team.

43:38

We all knew each other, management knew

43:40

each other very well. So you've worked

43:42

out all those little bits that need

43:44

to be worked out and gone through

43:46

those, those bits there. So in terms

43:49

of a, of a captaincy, it was

43:51

easy. senior players when you're in, you

43:53

know, I don't know. Last year with

43:55

Wales, captain in that team... That's hard

43:57

work, yeah. Yeah. That's a coaching and

43:59

captain when you were teams like that.

44:02

You're all young. No one really knows.

44:04

No one's done it. No one wants

44:06

to speak up. Well, they haven't been

44:08

there. No. Yeah. I want to ask

44:10

you about England captaincy in a sec.

44:12

But I just... What we're talking about

44:14

England winning the World Cup, you want

44:17

it. And these guys talk about unbridled

44:19

joy, relief. spoken of Johnny Wilkinson a

44:21

lot about it and it was oddly

44:23

a massive relief and an anti-climax at

44:25

the same time because hang on a

44:27

minute this thing that's been there this

44:30

aim this goal this life this life

44:32

goal is suddenly gone so what did

44:34

you feel so you're in the change

44:36

rooms and everything's I'm sure you know

44:38

there's the old smartphone knocking about but

44:40

it's just you and your mates it's

44:42

you and the girls and the backroom

44:45

staff who are your mates there you

44:47

know did you would you describe it

44:49

in similar ways? It is so similar

44:51

and the things you talked about leadership

44:53

group and the team, we'd lost in

44:55

2010, there hadn't been a lot of

44:58

changes, so the group itself, the dynamics,

45:00

that leadership group, very very similar, we'd

45:02

worked through all the like clunky bits

45:04

to know each other, knew when somebody

45:06

needed to tick, just because he didn't

45:08

have a title, you could speak, like

45:10

it was very very similar. But yeah,

45:13

I think for me, it was an

45:15

overwhelming relief. Joanna describes it as a,

45:17

like you say, an climax. For me,

45:19

it was literally changed, I think, my

45:21

outlook on life. It was like a

45:23

weight lifted. And actually, every rugby from

45:26

that moment was so different because I

45:28

wasn't chasing something. I always had it.

45:30

Nobody could ever take it away. And

45:32

I think I got a lot more

45:34

joy from the rest of my career

45:36

because... I'd hate to look at the

45:38

other side. If we lost that title,

45:41

I'm not sure which country would I

45:43

exile myself, too. and go and find

45:45

a little hole and hide in it.

45:47

You look at the captaincy side is

45:49

interesting. So Steve Borthwick, you know, I

45:51

played with Borthwick for a long time.

45:54

He captained me for a long time.

45:56

I thought he was an outstanding captain.

45:58

When you were England manager, you had

46:00

him as... doing your team as captain.

46:02

He has now had a really tough

46:04

period in terms of results, really tough

46:06

autumn, and he switched the captaincy from

46:09

Jamie George to Maratoji. So what do

46:11

you make of that decision? And again,

46:13

it's a different captaincy scenario than we're

46:15

talking about your World Cup. They're in

46:17

a slump, right? Yeah, it's interesting. And

46:19

to actually take it off a player

46:22

who's, you know... was fit and still

46:24

there. He's quite a big call. 24

46:26

hours notice is quite a big call.

46:28

Yeah, it's quite a big call. And

46:30

you will, you know, I think he

46:32

said publicly, you know, it's a blow,

46:35

isn't it? You know, there's a reason

46:37

why, you know, we won four out

46:39

of 11 games. You would take that

46:41

under Jamie's order's captain now. We all

46:43

do respect, I think we all agree

46:45

that Jamie George George should have been

46:47

captain of England about four years ago,

46:50

when he was absolutely, in my opinion,

46:52

the peak of his peak of his

46:54

powers. and you know as much as

46:56

I love Owen Farrell I really do

46:58

I think he had enough responsibility playing

47:00

the 10 and all the best captains

47:03

in the world tend to be in

47:05

I mean not the best captains but

47:07

it's just the nature of the game

47:09

is the referee is everything decision is

47:11

given in and around the breakdown so

47:13

why would you not have a forward

47:15

as captain and I just feel with

47:18

it told you he's now taking it

47:20

on it's a gamble but it's a

47:22

gamble that Steve has to take now.

47:24

He's got to roll the dice. And

47:26

his gambles go, Marrow is a low-risk

47:28

player. I mean, okay, there's the odd

47:31

penalty, but he is touchwood, likely to

47:33

play 80 minutes, most tests. He's only

47:35

been sub-twiced. I wonder if it says

47:37

to me that I don't think, Bothwick

47:39

doesn't think Jamie George's automatic first choice,

47:41

and regardless of what anyone said during

47:43

the autumn, he sees value. in having

47:46

a captain who starts the game and

47:48

ends the game. Yes, I mean that's

47:50

the big thing. Captains go off like

47:52

60 minutes. Yeah, it's great. You're watching

47:54

it going, that's, that's, you know, it's

47:56

like anything, the first 60 minutes is

47:59

to give yourself a chance to win

48:01

the last 20, unless you're winning the

48:03

game. You want your best plays out

48:05

of the field at the end of

48:07

the game. Yes, so you need you

48:09

know, that's when those decisions. And you

48:11

don't get that many of those really

48:14

crucial decisions in your career. You sort

48:16

of win or lose a game on,

48:18

but they do happen. And you need

48:20

that guiding presence there at the end

48:22

of the game. That's when you do

48:24

need your leadership, because that's when everything's...

48:27

If you're in a tight game, the

48:29

pressure is immense, isn't in that last

48:31

20? And the longer it goes... The

48:33

bigger every decision is, the tensor, you

48:35

know, the whole thing gets tight. That's

48:37

when you need your, if your captain's

48:39

off, yeah, I've not got that, I

48:42

mean, it's been happening for 10 plus

48:44

years, doesn't it? Yeah. 20, even longer.

48:46

Everyone goes off, you know, mate, this

48:48

is this is it. This is the

48:50

moment. It's going to be interesting as

48:52

well with the disciplined side of it

48:55

because he told you, you know, he's

48:57

a brilliant, brilliant player. Like we're hitting

48:59

a panel as well. No, we've got...

49:01

No, no, no, no. What I'm saying

49:03

is being captain normally fives, one or

49:05

two, one, no, no, no. What I'm

49:08

saying is being captain, normally five, five,

49:10

five, you one, four, I must tell

49:12

me, I must tell me, I must

49:14

tell me. I must tell me, I

49:16

must tell me, I must tell me,

49:18

I must tell me, I must tell

49:20

me, I must tell me, because, because,

49:23

I must tell me, because, because, I

49:25

must tell me, I must tell me,

49:27

because, I must tell me, I must

49:29

tell me, because, because, I must tell

49:31

me, I must tell me, I must

49:33

tell me, I must tell me, I

49:36

must tell me He gave it to

49:38

me, which obviously was basically all he

49:40

needed to do, and he said to

49:42

him, I think you need to discuss

49:44

discipline with the group, with the team.

49:46

So I thought I had a video

49:48

recorder in my room at the time,

49:51

obviously, had a bar and a microwave

49:53

and a fruit. Anyway, tried to put

49:55

the tape in, put the tape in,

49:57

and basically it was about 38 penalties

49:59

that England had given away in the

50:01

last six games, and a third of

50:04

them I gave away. And I thought

50:06

to myself, Clive's quite smart in you,

50:08

because I don't really need to discuss

50:10

this with the team. So I picked

50:12

up the phone and said, we put

50:14

the tape in and we went, I

50:16

think we need to rain it in

50:19

a little bit. And but what I'm

50:21

saying is, as a captain, you know,

50:23

that relationship with the referee and, I

50:25

mean, Johno, funny. enough we did we

50:27

did something for the World Cup final

50:29

where they made us sit and watch

50:32

a replay of the World Cup final

50:34

now for 21 years I've been carrying

50:36

the burden of thinking that I gave

50:38

away the final penalty that sent the

50:40

game into extra time yeah I didn't

50:42

until we watched it what I thought

50:44

I had no the penalty that went

50:47

to extra time was a scrum the

50:49

penalty that went to level during extra

50:51

time was possibly made. But you watch

50:53

it possibly. I think Australia, if you

50:55

watch it, you go Australia far more

50:57

than that were, you know, it was

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51:51

97, 9th tour. The things I remember

51:53

are, I was 17, yeah, but going

51:56

to school. In between, yeah, studying. I

51:58

remember John Bentley being on the wing

52:00

scoring one good try and he's lived

52:02

off ever since but he's done all

52:04

the transfers are I remember Jerry's Jerry's

52:06

drop goal and I remember the Living

52:09

Relines DVD which is the greatest one

52:11

of the greatest if not the greatest

52:13

sporting documentary I ever watched But was

52:15

it as monumental for you guys? That's

52:17

one of the reasons why genuine now,

52:19

why I wanted to play a rugby.

52:21

I've watched that DVD, I think was

52:24

the best rugby documentary you'll ever ever

52:26

get. And I watched it, I thought,

52:28

that's what I want in terms of

52:30

experience, it's the best, you know, it's

52:32

the best rugby experience I've ever had

52:34

in my life. I guess it was

52:37

pro, but it was full of lads

52:39

who'd been. The last amateur first professional

52:41

tour, really. Yeah, I think, a couple

52:43

of things, a couple of things, a

52:45

couple of things, a couple of things,

52:47

a couple of things, a couple of

52:49

things, I think, years later, years later,

52:52

years later, when you hear, when you

52:54

hear, when you hear a lot of

52:56

years later, when you hear a lot

52:58

of people, when you hear a lot

53:00

of people, when you hear a lot

53:02

of people, when you hear a lot

53:05

of people, when you hear a lot

53:07

of people, when you hear a lot

53:09

of people, which was great because it

53:11

was genuine flying the wall. We were

53:13

so used to them being there, which

53:15

sounds ridiculous. I remember when they came

53:17

in with a camera and we were

53:20

going to be here, and said, if

53:22

you want us to go, we'll go.

53:24

And you just got used to them

53:26

being there. And when I went down

53:28

to look at the tape, look at

53:30

the edit, and they've got footage inside

53:33

the changing room for the first test

53:35

where it is nervous beyond that you

53:37

know, you're going out to have to

53:39

play them. and we were very very

53:41

inexperienced. But a tell for speech, a

53:43

tell for speech. Yeah, all over the

53:45

next, when he's put the net out

53:48

over the chair. Scrummerton session as well,

53:50

the whole thing is, is just, I

53:52

mean, so lucky to have it because

53:54

for us it's a reminder, because you

53:56

know, it's like years later, you go,

53:58

yeah. game gave us a great speech,

54:01

you wouldn't be able to recall the

54:03

deep, to have it on video. But

54:05

also on that tour, I always say

54:07

if I could be anywhere in my

54:09

career again, go back, I'll be on

54:11

that tour. Really? Yeah. Not only, yeah,

54:14

with the lions, but with the rugby

54:16

we played was, some of the rugby

54:18

we played was absolutely phenomenal. The midweek

54:20

team was, the third game. where we

54:22

played Western Province in Cape Town. And

54:24

you know, it's like when you're on

54:26

tour, first games big and then, oh,

54:29

the first big provincial games. So we

54:31

were playing them at Newlands. And the,

54:33

I mean, we were scoring tries, they

54:35

were scoring tries. I was trying to

54:37

talk to the team at one point.

54:39

I couldn't breathe. Because it was that

54:42

fast, the game was that fast and

54:44

that few years. And I was fit.

54:46

And Cape Town. The game was out

54:48

of sea level. He's always at attitude,

54:50

if you're not knowing. In the second

54:52

half, I was talking to Yane about

54:54

this when we had that catch up

54:57

the other year. Rob Howley made a

54:59

break. The game got a bit last

55:01

short and Rob's got it and he's

55:03

just gone across and he's straightened up

55:05

and he just turned on the jets.

55:07

And he's gone straight to the middle

55:10

of him. And I was near him

55:12

when he made the break and then

55:14

I'm 20 yards away all of a

55:16

sudden and he's flying. who's just ran

55:18

onto it, straight onto it, and he

55:20

still needed finishing, and he scored it.

55:22

I remember that one. You remember it?

55:25

I remember watching that live, going, oh,

55:27

we can play. I mean, that's world

55:29

class. That's proper, because, you know, that's

55:31

like, these guys can play. And I

55:33

scored it, and his face was like

55:35

50% as what we do, and 50%...

55:38

All that was tasty. you know we

55:40

could be thinking oh we've got some

55:42

players it yeah I've got some players

55:44

I mean so I forget I hadn't

55:46

had much exposure there didn't come out

55:48

post-apartheid nights. We were the first team

55:50

in England in 94, 97, they were

55:53

world champions, but I just remember the

55:55

group that was assembled, both the coaching

55:57

staff and the playing staff and the

55:59

battering staff. Just got immense and Fran

56:01

Cotton, who'd won, the only two teams

56:03

that had ever won in South Africa

56:06

were the 74 lines and the 96

56:08

all blacks. So it's not an easy

56:10

thing to do. And I think when

56:12

Fran Cotton turned up and gave his

56:14

first speech... Just a great combination. And

56:16

this is a rugby IP there was

56:18

incredible. And then to have those guys

56:21

who come back from league with their

56:23

knowledge, not just defence, everyone talks about

56:25

defence with the league, but actually they

56:27

were clinical. If you're playing, if you're

56:29

playing professional with the league, you get

56:31

a chance to score, you don't score.

56:34

I suppose it was Gibson, it was

56:36

Alan Tate, John Bentley, Baitman, yeah. And

56:38

Scotty Quinnella, come back, yeah. And I

56:40

remember, I love being. I'd watch a

56:42

tour in England in 1988. I'd watched

56:44

Alan Tate play for Scotland in the

56:47

87 World Cup. So these guys, you

56:49

know, they've been around a long, long

56:51

time. They had vast, vast experience. And

56:53

you gave him an opportunity to school.

56:55

And Bentos was just vocal. I mean,

56:57

we... You know, the rugby teams then,

56:59

the backs never said anything. The backs

57:02

were very, very quiet on the field

57:04

generally. It was beautiful. The backs were

57:06

generally pretty quiet, certainly in the England

57:08

team. You know, they weren't vocal. You

57:10

suddenly had bent us out of the

57:12

training field slashing people with a bag.

57:15

You get out of the field and

57:17

he's going to guys, I'm going to

57:19

terrorize, he's shouting 45 to James Small,

57:21

I'm going to terrorize you. I'm going

57:23

to terrorize you. Do you know what

57:25

I do remember? I do remember, is

57:27

that Ian MacEacon took, decided to take

57:30

Will Greenwood. He was uncapped. He was

57:32

uncapped in a club. cool and then

57:34

Will Greenwood was an uncapped player and

57:36

so who do we think will cap

57:38

is the right person the captain this

57:40

tour coming up yeah and you know

57:43

is there is there a Will Greenwood

57:45

quiz you know the majority of the

57:47

team will come from the six nations

57:49

but there's there's no reason why you

57:51

can't go outside of that Andy Farrell's

57:53

got a remit and we all agree

57:55

in that Kaylon Doris if he performs

57:58

well people are saying Doris or it's

58:00

not a lot of people are capped

58:02

early because they don't lose into another

58:04

country so Yeah, it's quite a bigger.

58:06

I mean, in the, in the, in

58:08

the, in 93 I went, I went

58:11

on a reserve as a alliance tour

58:13

and you could only pick guys off

58:15

the, off the Five Nations because watching

58:17

a club game then was so different

58:19

to what, what they play now, there

58:21

was no Europe, it was very difficult.

58:23

So all you could do was go

58:26

who play wellness, six days. Now, in

58:28

97 we had Europe, and they could

58:30

pick some, that was an incredible selection,

58:32

squads are bigger, squads are bigger now,

58:34

all the, all the, all the, all

58:36

the, I think, I think, I think,

58:39

I think, I think, I think, I

58:41

think, I think, I think, I think,

58:43

someone, someone, someone, to come to come

58:45

to come in from, to come in

58:47

from, from, from, from, from, from, from,

58:49

from, from, from, from, from, from, from,

58:51

from, from, from, from, from, from, from,

58:54

from, from Won't happen because anyone who's

58:56

any good will be in a squad

58:58

somewhere. They'll have had some a squad

59:00

to say big Yeah, and and they're

59:02

all getting on the field Well, I

59:04

think Jack I think I think this

59:07

has got a great chance. Yeah, and

59:09

he's not in England school. Yeah, but

59:11

yeah Those guys who are those guys

59:13

who are yeah, who are abroad but

59:15

the only thing with with Doris I

59:17

always think well Carlin was unlucky never

59:19

the captain of the captain alliance Yeah,

59:22

because it took you come That's what

59:24

he says. Well, if you think about

59:26

it, you know, if you had a

59:28

good year, if you had a good

59:30

year and lines you, you were a

59:32

large captain. Will did consecutive Grand Slams

59:35

in 9192. Yeah. And the team I

59:37

went, you know, 93, I remember you

59:39

had seven England forwards in the pack.

59:41

Yeah. And Gavra was captain. I can

59:43

see why. Because yeah, well, well played

59:45

the first thing Gibson came in. Yeah,

59:48

I think when we when we just

59:50

before 97 France won the six nation

59:52

sorry the five nation and we finished

59:54

second and you know John it's right

59:56

if you play if you play well

59:58

if you play well against your opposite

1:00:00

number we had 18 players from England

1:00:03

picked on that. But it didn't it

1:00:05

didn't feel like that because in a

1:00:07

way to me because like you say

1:00:09

Will Green was in there and he

1:00:11

hadn't played in the Six Nations. England's

1:00:13

starting centers in the Six Nations neither

1:00:16

went on that tour which was Will

1:00:18

and Phil de Glanville and we took

1:00:20

Jerry and we took Will Greenwood. Gombers

1:00:22

played nine for him on that year.

1:00:24

We had three numbers on that tour

1:00:26

and none of them was gone. So

1:00:28

there was, it was a hell of

1:00:31

a selection and a guy like Nick

1:00:33

Bill went on that trip, yeah. Yeah,

1:00:35

it was a hell of a player,

1:00:37

but you hadn't played that much. How

1:00:39

did you find out? Can I just

1:00:41

ask that? Because obviously now, like C.

1:00:44

C. Bex. Was it a phone call?

1:00:46

Did you find out? I got a

1:00:48

phone call so I was captain. It

1:00:50

was on TV in the morning on

1:00:52

Sky Sports. And we all went to

1:00:54

the ground in the morning. It was

1:00:56

a letter. It was actually that wonderful

1:00:59

thing of handwritten letter. Beautiful. But John,

1:01:01

you still got it. Yes, I have

1:01:03

some. But remember we, they, in 97,

1:01:05

because it was the Brave New World,

1:01:07

it was on TV in the morning

1:01:09

on Sky Sports. And we all went

1:01:12

to the ground in the morning, because

1:01:14

we had six Leicester players, I think.

1:01:16

None of us knew, none of us

1:01:18

knew until we heard it on TV.

1:01:20

So we went and did a press

1:01:22

conference at the ground in the morning

1:01:24

and then played you guys in the

1:01:27

evening. In the midweek, played midweek game

1:01:29

with us in the evening. Literally just

1:01:31

sitting, watching TV, so whether your name

1:01:33

comes up. And it's actually lovely because

1:01:35

there's that what's all I think comes

1:01:37

up. It's either two emotions, isn't it?

1:01:40

A vital joy or complete misery. Johno,

1:01:42

let's talk about your timers. England coach

1:01:44

on a preface this with a memory

1:01:46

of mine which was the opening ceremony

1:01:48

at Twickenham. They did this thing where

1:01:50

it was almost the stadium went dark

1:01:52

and they a spotlight on one representative

1:01:55

at a time. And I think from

1:01:57

my memory is the spotlight hit you

1:01:59

and the place went absolutely mad. And

1:02:01

there were people crying. I don't know

1:02:03

if you're aware of this. There were

1:02:05

people in tears. It was national trade.

1:02:08

It was a national treasure. I was

1:02:10

sitting there. I was sitting there with

1:02:12

Martin Bayfield at the time. And we

1:02:14

both sitting there and we both looked

1:02:16

at each other and everyone had tears.

1:02:18

It's this really lovely moment. And it

1:02:21

was almost like, it then occurred to

1:02:23

me, because you're concentrating on what you're

1:02:25

doing and what I'm going to say

1:02:27

here, and when are we on and

1:02:29

when are we off and all that,

1:02:31

it occurred to me that you might

1:02:33

not have been back in the spotlight

1:02:36

at Twickenham since you were England coach.

1:02:38

So do you remember? Yeah, do you

1:02:40

remember that home? You don't get a

1:02:42

little, you don't get a walk, a

1:02:44

walk past him. Like a little double

1:02:46

deck of bus around the pitch. And

1:02:49

I think you said something, what do

1:02:51

you reckon? And I said, I mean,

1:02:53

most, you know, it was an inmate

1:02:55

because you've only been retired for three

1:02:57

years. Three years. So I don't think

1:02:59

that, I mean, no disrespect, you know,

1:03:01

that would only have ever been offered

1:03:04

to you because under no circumstances would

1:03:06

they give the job to someone who's

1:03:08

only been out the game for, well,

1:03:10

not even out there, you know, three

1:03:12

years, you know what I mean, it's

1:03:14

unusual to get the top job, but

1:03:17

I mean. But he phoned me, he

1:03:19

phoned me and he said, what do

1:03:21

you reckon? And I said, well, you

1:03:23

know, give us a job. I was

1:03:25

very honest. I said, well, do you

1:03:27

the social secretary? I said, you know,

1:03:29

who, you know, you're going to pick,

1:03:32

as you coaches. And the question I

1:03:34

really wanted to ask you is, you

1:03:36

walked into a set up that already

1:03:38

had England coaches there. Yeah, if you,

1:03:40

and, and, You know, I think that's

1:03:42

quite a difficult environment to walk into.

1:03:45

Well, I knew, I knew, I knew

1:03:47

the guys are already in there. But

1:03:49

you feel in need, sorta, etc. But

1:03:51

sometimes it's nice to go in there

1:03:53

and actually have you. own put your

1:03:55

own stamp on it immediately but your

1:03:57

record for England as in the coach

1:04:00

is actually yes all right we won

1:04:02

the championship that year we had we

1:04:04

had that first year actually we had

1:04:06

quite a few of the older guys

1:04:08

come come back and did all right

1:04:10

we beat France didn't we at Twickenham

1:04:13

at the end of it and then

1:04:15

the next year they're all gone I

1:04:17

remember the the the lines went in

1:04:19

2009 and we came back for the

1:04:21

autumn in 2009 and we had something

1:04:23

like 11 of the team that had

1:04:25

beaten France at the end of the

1:04:28

previous season weren't available. So that nine,

1:04:30

nine autumn was tough 2010, six nations,

1:04:32

I'm trying to remember what was, lost

1:04:34

to Ireland that we beat Wales. And

1:04:36

then we started getting a few new

1:04:38

good young players, so Ben Young's came

1:04:41

through, Dan Cole came in, Young's he

1:04:43

went to Australia, you went on that

1:04:45

trip, didn't you? We beat them in

1:04:47

the second, we beat Australia away. in

1:04:49

the second test, after not re... that

1:04:51

was a big win. And actually then

1:04:54

we beat Australia again, then we Chris

1:04:56

Ashton came through, he'd come through at

1:04:58

the end of that, yeah, Benny Phoehn

1:05:00

had come in, and actually developed quite

1:05:02

a few. So it wasn't a bad

1:05:04

team at the start of 2011, and

1:05:06

we only lost the... we nearly got

1:05:09

the way I went for the Grand

1:05:11

Slam that went on and got beaten,

1:05:13

won the championship. Yeah, there is a

1:05:15

presumption amongst the... at least the English

1:05:17

rugby public that there's a couple of

1:05:19

things which are the experience because it

1:05:22

didn't end. Yeah, I didn't like an

1:05:24

end there but it wasn't, yeah, it

1:05:26

was, it scarred you and it's a

1:05:28

massive, it's a sporting tragedy that you're

1:05:30

no longer involved with the England team.

1:05:32

So, or in, or with English rugby,

1:05:34

do you view it that way? No,

1:05:37

not really, no. It's, it's, it's, I

1:05:39

mean the end of it, we've been

1:05:41

by France doing the World Cup, who

1:05:43

were a decent, who were a decent

1:05:45

team. with a relatively inexperienced team. So

1:05:47

in those terms, we didn't qualify for

1:05:50

four years later. get to the pool

1:05:52

stage with a more experienced team potential.

1:05:54

So in hindsight you think you would

1:05:56

have, I remember you said to me

1:05:58

and I would have done exactly the

1:06:00

same, I've got to, I'm going to

1:06:02

take this job because I don't know

1:06:05

if I'll ever get off again. Yeah,

1:06:07

I mean, but ideally, would you have

1:06:09

had a bit, it would have been

1:06:11

ideal if you'd been in coaching a

1:06:13

bit longer before you took the job?

1:06:15

Idea, yeah, idea. And did you had

1:06:18

such high standards and values and values

1:06:20

as a person as a play yourself,

1:06:22

as a play yourself, I maybe that

1:06:24

you held a lot of the players

1:06:26

in that squad to your to your

1:06:28

standards of values and I think you

1:06:30

were let down by yeah ultimately ultimately

1:06:33

you get you get in the papers

1:06:35

for being drunk disorderly right oh don't

1:06:37

worry I know that right so we're

1:06:39

telling me we've all been on a

1:06:41

arbitrary the first the first one the

1:06:43

island lads have been into that same

1:06:46

bar and been a lot looser by

1:06:48

all accounts, but never made the papers.

1:06:50

Yeah, but brother of school, we sketch

1:06:52

it out, yeah. So it's one of

1:06:54

those where you're just going, guys, these

1:06:56

things happen. It's just, it's just now

1:06:58

all over the papers. These things, we've

1:07:01

been on rugby tours, these things happen.

1:07:03

It just gets, it gets made into

1:07:05

this. Once it's out, once the cats

1:07:07

out the bag and they're all over

1:07:09

it, they're all over. Especially in New

1:07:11

Zealand, rain it in because you're in

1:07:14

New Zealand, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam,

1:07:16

bam, bam, bam, don't do this, this

1:07:18

and this. And some of them did

1:07:20

that and that. What goes through your

1:07:22

head then when you get the knock

1:07:24

on the door to say boss? The

1:07:27

cat's out the bag. You're dealing with

1:07:29

the... Someone's jumped off. Your squad of...

1:07:31

Someone's jumped off the front. Someone jumped

1:07:33

off your squad of... Someone jumped off

1:07:35

the front. Someone's up. Someone jumped off

1:07:37

the front. You might jump off the

1:07:39

front. You might jump off the front.

1:07:42

You're almost done because you can't you

1:07:44

can't fight that at that point. When

1:07:46

you win, the likelihood is you're going

1:07:48

to go out and have a few

1:07:50

beers and enjoy yourself and no one

1:07:52

really minds. When you lose, I said,

1:07:55

you're not going to go out, we're

1:07:57

going to go upstairs and discuss why

1:07:59

we lost. was responsible and that's it.

1:08:01

But do you, do you, will all

1:08:03

the English rugby public presume that that

1:08:05

episode was sufficiently scarring that that is

1:08:07

why we don't see you on the

1:08:10

front line of English rugby anymore? Is

1:08:12

that the case or are you just

1:08:14

happy watching from a distance? Yeah, I

1:08:16

mean we say it wasn't a great

1:08:18

period but it's like... In your life,

1:08:20

you have things that go incredibly well,

1:08:23

and I've been incredibly lucky to do

1:08:25

it. If you said to me, you're

1:08:27

going to do this in your career

1:08:29

when you're 11 years old, decent, no, it's

1:08:31

not going to happen to get paid for

1:08:33

it. So, but, you know, you have ups

1:08:35

and downs in your life. It's just part

1:08:38

of it. So, scarring, yeah, it wasn't great,

1:08:40

but... You know, it doesn't, it doesn't, it

1:08:42

doesn't, the God, there's worse things can happen

1:08:44

to people on that. You are still involved

1:08:46

in rugby because your son is now. Well,

1:08:48

you, you know, I've got, you know, catching

1:08:50

kids last few years. What are you like

1:08:52

as a sideline rugby dad? Because it got

1:08:55

me honest, when you, when you turn up

1:08:57

on, you know, I turn up at Richmond,

1:08:59

and there was Jason Leonard. and Michael Leiden,

1:09:01

we all arrived at the same time.

1:09:03

And they were in the underage, so

1:09:05

it's the first time I ever, I

1:09:07

could actually be there on a Sunday

1:09:09

to watch my son play, Enzo, and

1:09:11

I bumped in the chase and he

1:09:14

had Jack and Lewis Leiner, and we

1:09:16

gave it to one of the dads

1:09:18

and said, see, I get on with

1:09:20

those three. And talk about Chip of

1:09:22

the old block. I mean, Jason's son

1:09:24

Jack is when I'm punching every child

1:09:26

in the first. Lewis Lyde could spiral

1:09:28

kick off both feet and Enzo spent

1:09:30

the whole time cheating, but... Yeah.

1:09:32

Is your son, do you see

1:09:34

the traits of you as a

1:09:37

player in your son, Henry? Well,

1:09:39

he's got, I mean, of

1:09:41

course, he's got, he's got,

1:09:43

he's got, he's got, obviously...

1:09:45

from maternal genes. But yeah, look, it

1:09:47

can be difficult. It depends on it going, doesn't

1:09:49

it? If things, I mean, they get injured or

1:09:51

whatever. Is he second wrong? No, he's a bad

1:09:54

one. My son said to me, dad, if it's

1:09:56

all right, he could go in there. It feels

1:09:58

all right with you. I'm not going to be...

1:10:00

professional rugby player, I've got ambition slightly

1:10:02

higher than that. Well they're going to

1:10:04

do, I think, I think, some people have

1:10:06

the misconception that you want your kids to

1:10:09

do what you did. Your kids are always

1:10:11

going to find the way that they're going

1:10:13

to hopefully find something they love to do

1:10:15

and do it with a passion. That's all

1:10:17

you can ask them to do. My boy

1:10:19

seems like, you know, he played a lot

1:10:22

of football. I encourage him to play a

1:10:24

lot of football going. It's really good from...

1:10:26

but then he said we want to play

1:10:28

rugby and we go back and play rugby

1:10:30

and off you go. Are you relaxed on

1:10:32

the sidelines or? No. I can't. There's a

1:10:35

problem. Four and one. Yeah, you get four,

1:10:37

I've had my moments definitely. But it's,

1:10:39

it's, it's, look, there are also kids

1:10:41

as well. You're going, you're watching it

1:10:43

and we did the thing sort of

1:10:45

seriously and properly and you can get

1:10:47

drawn into that. You know, when you,

1:10:49

I was coached him. at Rob Rob

1:10:52

Robby when he was younger. And you've

1:10:54

got the whole mix, you've got the

1:10:56

kids who were watching Robby at home,

1:10:58

they want to learn and do anything.

1:11:00

And you've got some kids who don't.

1:11:02

And they go to understand that. John

1:11:04

have you offered yourself up for the

1:11:06

dad's game at all? Oh, not, no,

1:11:08

I'm not. Not yet, anyway. No, imagine.

1:11:10

You just, I'll bring my mates. You

1:11:13

just want, when you see them having

1:11:15

fun with their mates with rugby, that's

1:11:17

it. Yeah. That's what it's all about.

1:11:19

They're the memories you'll have of being

1:11:21

with your mates, doing all, and they're

1:11:23

so, I mean, he went to South

1:11:25

Africa with his school. I mean, you

1:11:27

watch him going on. Oh, so what

1:11:29

an experience. I'm getting photos. I'm getting

1:11:31

photos. I'm getting photos. I'm getting photos.

1:11:33

I'm getting lovely. Yeah. You jammy bastards?

1:11:35

Yeah. That'd be 25! 4s I'd

1:11:37

have to play on Loftus.

1:11:40

Yeah, got you ready? And

1:11:42

the Springboks, the Springboks, the

1:11:44

Fairplay, the Springboks, they had

1:11:46

a photo with them all,

1:11:49

saddled totally in the stand

1:11:51

at Loftus. That's him, yeah,

1:11:53

that's his son. Yeah, that's

1:11:55

him, that's him, that's his

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