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rewards. Well

0:31

now it's been a very interesting Easter

0:33

week which we began with the

0:35

death of Pope Francis as we've been

0:38

hearing his continuing to lie in

0:40

state in St. Peter's Basilica. Then there

0:42

was Donald Trump's latest pronouncements on

0:44

Ukraine amid more Russian attacks and housing

0:46

once again hitting the front pages.

0:48

So with us this week to talk

0:51

about it all, Emma Higgins of

0:53

Finnegrail Administrative State for Public Procurement, Digitalization

0:55

and E -Government, Paul Murphy of People

0:57

Before Profit and Jane Matthews, political

0:59

correspondent for TheJournal .ie. morning and welcome one

1:01

and all. We'll start with

1:03

the Pope. I mean, his

1:05

death was not unexpected, I suppose. It

1:07

was sudden, but not unexpected, Paul. Yeah,

1:11

I guess so. I mean, I'm not a very

1:13

keen follower of... Church.

1:15

You can't avoid that. You certainly

1:17

can't avoid the coverage of us now

1:19

and I was aware that he

1:21

was sick and obviously, you

1:23

know, significant numbers of people in this

1:25

country and probably hundreds of millions

1:27

of people around the world are mourning

1:30

and I absolutely respect that. I

1:32

mean, for me, I

1:34

suppose there's kind of two sides of

1:37

the Pope's legacy, like it's definitely Without

1:39

being a keen follower of Church

1:41

Affairs, it's clear that the Pope

1:43

was significantly more progressive than his

1:45

predecessors. And the things

1:47

that stood out to me was his

1:49

position in terms of climate change. I

1:51

actually went and kind of re -read through

1:53

the Laudate d 'Aim that he released,

1:56

I think before COP28. And it was

1:58

very striking where he's calling out the system

2:00

based on profit as being responsible

2:02

for climate change and calling on

2:04

the world's leaders to stop their

2:06

inaction. Obviously recently, In

2:08

relation to Gaza, he's been very principled,

2:10

consistent voice, calling out the genocide.

2:12

And Donald Trump extraordinarily said he was,

2:14

and this is the quote, looking

2:16

forward to going to the funeral. I

2:18

mean, it's not the appropriate language,

2:20

but I mean, a cynic would say

2:22

he's going over to make sure

2:24

the Pope is dead. Because the

2:26

Pope opposed him on Gaza, the Pope

2:28

opposed him on asylum seekers and refugees and

2:30

speaking out about those things. And obviously

2:33

the one who saw him last before he

2:35

died was JD Vance. I mean, I

2:37

think that the interesting thing is that in

2:39

a way it speaks to how the

2:41

political system has shifted to the right over

2:43

the past number of years. that

2:45

Pope Francis looked like some

2:47

sort of progressive radical because he

2:49

wasn't really. I mean, he

2:51

was an opponent of liberation theology

2:53

in Argentina. And he

2:55

was still very conservative in the terms of

2:57

the role of women in the church. Justine

2:59

McCarthy had a very good piece earlier on

3:01

this week saying how he was saying, well,

3:03

you know, the church is a spouse and

3:05

women have a particular role and it's definitely

3:07

not to be ministers and so he was

3:09

pushing a massive boulder up a hill. Yes.

3:12

And in terms of. dealing with

3:14

the legacy of his predecessors, both

3:16

in terms of, you know, the Panama

3:18

Papers, what was revealed, whole kind of

3:20

slush funds, this kind of thing. And

3:22

in fairness to Pope Francis seemed to

3:25

have an approach which was much more

3:27

about humility. I think that's why he

3:29

chose the name, not this big splurging

3:31

and so on. But I do think,

3:33

unfortunately, in a way, the fact that

3:35

he looked so good is a

3:37

reflection of how dark things have become.

3:39

Now, Jane, the abiding image that will stay

3:41

with me from this week in reference

3:43

to the Pope's death is Donald Trump announcing

3:45

it in the Rose Garden during the

3:47

Easter egg roll with the Easter Bunny beside

3:49

him. I know. The wife on one

3:51

side, the Easter Bunny on the other. Quite

3:54

bizarre. Totally bizarre. I saw the headline

3:56

and I had to kind of go and

3:58

find the image for myself. I didn't

4:00

quite believe it. And it's just so Trumpian.

4:02

Isn't it? I mean, you know, we're

4:04

kind He always has this ability to

4:06

shock. And I think, yeah, I

4:08

was reading back over some of the

4:10

coverage from the last comparable event like

4:12

this when Pope John Paul died 20

4:14

years ago now in April 2005. And

4:16

that at the time was still the

4:18

diplomatic event of the year. And I

4:20

think we're going to see similar this

4:23

weekend. You have a huge amount of

4:25

world leaders going over for the funeral

4:27

on Saturday up to 170 foreign delegations

4:29

going from Ireland. We'll have the T

4:31

-shirt, the tarnished and the president will

4:33

be there to pay their respects. overkill

4:36

if you don't mind me using that phrase.

4:38

Three people going, Tishuk, Tanishda and

4:40

the head of state. I'm

4:42

not sure. I mean, you could make the argument either

4:44

way, I suppose. They would argue

4:46

that it isn't overkill. But

4:49

I think it's interesting. Paul

4:51

mentioned Justine McCarthy there. She had another great

4:53

piece in the Irish Times today about

4:55

the kind of some of the hypocrisy maybe

4:57

of world leaders that are going over

4:59

to pay their respects to this man, this

5:01

man who has talked about the need

5:03

to address climate change. He's called out Trump

5:05

specifically for his policies around asylum seekers

5:07

and then to sit there and pay their

5:09

respects. It is just an interesting thing

5:11

to witness, I suppose. I

5:14

think it's right that we are sending

5:16

a delegation to the funeral, our president,

5:18

our Tishuk and our Taunista. I think

5:20

it's right that we'll be flying the

5:22

flyer. Is this not about the coalition

5:24

parties, each one having to get their

5:26

face before the cameras? No. I

5:28

mean, really, the Tishuk and the president, even

5:30

that, you know, maybe the president would

5:32

have been sufficient or the Tishuk would have

5:34

been sufficient. Listen, time... I don't want

5:36

to begrudge them their trip to this very

5:38

historic moment. But it does seem

5:40

like a little bit over the top.

5:42

I don't think so. I mean, we're

5:45

a country that 69 % of people

5:47

self -classify as Catholic, 3 .5 million Irish

5:49

people are. That's an awful lot of

5:51

people who are feeling the loss of

5:53

Pope Francis. I think it's right that

5:55

we're sending a delegation there to represent

5:57

us at that time. I think it's

5:59

right that we will be flying the

6:01

flag at half mast over government buildings

6:03

tomorrow during the service. And I think

6:05

that's absolutely the appropriate thing to do. Obviously,

6:09

we'll be watching over the next couple of weeks what

6:11

happens in terms of the election of a new Pope.

6:13

I personally speaking, I love the tradition of

6:16

the election and the conclave and everything

6:18

that brings. But I also love that Pope

6:20

Francis has departed from tradition, not just

6:22

for the sake of it, but for really

6:24

meaningful reasons. And I think that gives

6:26

us a glimpse into the person he is.

6:28

And for example, I suppose around the

6:30

burial and how he's been buried in a

6:32

church that he visited every time he

6:34

came home from a papal visit. The conclave

6:36

will obviously in the coming weeks be

6:38

talking about that but it'll be interesting dominated

6:40

in terms of the electorate not those

6:42

present because even the Cardinals over 80 are

6:45

allowed to be there and any one

6:47

of them can be elected Pope but the

6:49

majority of those who have a vote

6:51

were appointed by Pope Francis and they're from

6:53

all over the world every part of

6:55

the world will be represented. Yeah

6:57

and I guess that creates some

6:59

possibility that obviously he was anticipating

7:01

this moment and the possibility that

7:03

the next Pope will be in

7:05

the same sort of spirit in

7:07

terms of, you know, in a

7:10

parallel way, it's a bit like

7:12

Donald Trump appointing hundreds and hundreds

7:14

of federal judges. So his

7:16

legacy will live after him. Yeah,

7:18

yeah. And then there is a, clearly

7:20

again, I'm not like inside this,

7:22

but there clearly is a struggle inside

7:24

the church. I mean, there are

7:26

like very high profile American Catholics who

7:28

are viciously opposed to. or was

7:30

previously opposed to Pope Francis, suggested he

7:32

was a kind of illegitimate Pope,

7:34

the same kind of Trumpism, reflecting itself

7:36

within the Catholic Church. So there

7:38

is that, obviously, present. Yeah,

7:41

I would be hopeful that you have someone

7:43

who to... Marjorie Taylor Greene, when reacting to the

7:45

Pope's death, said, God has worked to take

7:47

evil out of the world. Well, I hadn't heard

7:49

that. That's quite something. Now, whether she meant

7:51

it quite in that way, it's the way it's

7:53

being understood that she figured the Pope was

7:55

an evil influence. Bizarre. Anyway,

7:58

we will move on. President

8:00

Zelensky will be present, and

8:02

so will Donald Trump. What will that

8:04

mean potentially for peace talks? Jane?

8:08

Yeah, it'll be really interesting. I think there'll

8:10

be an eye on some of the discussions

8:12

that go on on the sidelines of the

8:14

Pope's funeral. This week has

8:17

been an extraordinary week in terms

8:19

of the war on Ukraine.

8:21

We've seen Russia, you know, increase

8:23

its bombardment of Kiev. some

8:26

of the deadliest strikes that we've seen

8:28

since last year and we have this

8:31

Pressure now from Donald Trump who was

8:33

saying that he wants to see a

8:35

peace deal agreed He's saying he's got

8:37

his own timeline in mind. He hasn't

8:39

actually said when that is but the

8:41

understanding he did say 24 hours before

8:44

he was elected Yeah, and the the

8:46

it seems as though he wants it

8:48

before and he reaches his 100 days

8:50

in office next week So it seems

8:52

to be about Donald Trump more so

8:54

than about Ukraine or Russia and even

8:57

the details of that plan We don't

8:59

it hasn't been published yet. We don't

9:01

know the fall ins and outs But

9:03

there's been a lot of briefings on

9:05

it. It's easy to get agreement from

9:07

Russia Russia if you're giving Russia everything

9:09

Russia wants so easy Paul Yes, I

9:12

mean I think the Ukrainian people here

9:14

are really going to be the victims

9:16

of an old -style naked imperialist carve -up

9:18

between Trump on the one side who's

9:20

eager to get his hands on the

9:22

the rare earths the minerals and Putin

9:25

on the other hand who wants the

9:27

the land and unfortunately Like

9:29

the Ukrainian people have been

9:31

used in a war to

9:33

try and weaken the position

9:35

of Russian imperialism, NATO has

9:37

egged that on, has been

9:39

willing to fight to the

9:41

last Ukrainian and now utterly

9:43

betrayed by US because their

9:45

own interests now no longer

9:47

align, they want to pivot

9:49

to Asia. You

9:51

know, it's obviously horrendous. I mean, I think, you know,

9:53

a big question here is a question of Crimea. And

9:56

obviously, you know, the just answer in

9:58

terms of Crimea is allow the people to

10:00

decide and allow the return of refugees.

10:02

They've been involved in plantations in exactly the

10:04

same as in Ireland, you know. But

10:06

that's why we need the right of return

10:08

of refugees, not happening under a gun.

10:10

I mean, you did have a referendum in

10:13

Crimea, which overwhelmingly went to be with

10:15

Russia, but that was in the context of

10:17

Russian occupation. But the people

10:19

should be allowed to decide. That's what a

10:21

just peace would look like. Constitutionally,

10:23

though, we were talking about it earlier, the

10:26

Ukrainian constitution forbids that. You

10:28

know, they cannot hand over

10:30

Crimea to Russia. under

10:32

their constitution. So even if Zelensky

10:34

wanted to against I'm sure the

10:36

emotion of the people if he

10:38

wanted to concede that he really

10:40

can't in law. Yeah he may

10:42

well have to go to the people to

10:44

do that and that's I suppose a matter for

10:46

Ukraine. I think what we need to make

10:48

sure is that the right people. around the table

10:50

to negotiate a way forward for this. I

10:53

think President Zelensky has shown his

10:55

willingness to negotiate, but he's also

10:57

shown his steeliness too. And

11:00

that's important because it's important

11:02

that Ukraine not only gets

11:04

peace, but gets... adjust peace

11:06

out of this. And

11:08

I suppose it's up to President

11:10

Zelensky and I mean we're seeing the

11:12

negotiations happen through President Trump to

11:15

some degree at the moment. But

11:17

it's up to him to ascertain

11:19

what he believes is a just peace

11:21

for his people in the context

11:23

of what's happening. I mean there's people

11:25

being bombarded day and night in

11:27

Ukraine with bombs and peace has to

11:29

be what happens but it has

11:31

to come. It's very hard to see

11:34

a way forward because Sergey Lavrov,

11:36

even talking about those attacks in Ukraine,

11:38

has been playing on all news

11:40

media since he said it to CBS

11:42

News that they only target civilian

11:44

targets where they know the Ukrainian military

11:46

have a presence and therefore it

11:48

becomes justified and they leave it to

11:50

the commanders in the field. Yet

11:52

when you look, stand back from it,

11:54

you know it's deliberate targeting of

11:56

Kiev by Putin. No question. It's just

11:59

like what Israel does in Gaza.

12:01

It's the same sort of excuses. And

12:03

the media should treat them the same

12:05

way in terms of not giving any any

12:07

waste to the propaganda that comes from

12:09

Moscow or that comes from Tel Aviv or

12:12

Jerusalem. But yeah,

12:14

I mean, but again, it's the Ukrainians

12:16

who are the victims in all

12:18

of this. And

12:20

their voices aren't even going to be heard

12:22

at the negotiating table really, like that's what's

12:24

clear. But also the reality is that There

12:26

is a limit to which Ukraine is

12:28

going to be able to continue to fight.

12:30

There's clearly massive war weariness. There's a

12:32

real difficulty. You know, people have seen the

12:34

videos of conscripts being kind of pulled

12:36

out of nightclubs and so on. People clearly

12:38

know that like it is not going

12:40

to happen that they're going to push Russia

12:42

back. to the pre -existing borders and then

12:44

go pre -existing again in terms of Crimea,

12:47

which is what, over 10 years ago

12:49

now, like, a reality. When, if you allow

12:51

Russia to keep what it has at

12:53

the moment, it provides them, if you like,

12:55

with the new front line for the

12:57

next phase, whenever they feel strong enough and

12:59

recover their economy enough to have another

13:01

go. It does, and I suppose that's where

13:03

the question of accession comes in, accession

13:05

to the European Union, because things are very

13:07

different if we bring about peace deal. and

13:09

Ukraine becomes a member of the

13:11

EU, things become very different going

13:14

forward. And I suppose that's why we

13:16

need the EU to step up. That's why

13:18

we need the EU to support Ukraine,

13:20

not just now, these. Would you support Hungary

13:22

being ejected from the EU? I

13:25

don't know the answer to that. I

13:27

mean, it's difficult, to be honest, because we

13:29

know a lot of Hungary has bounced.

13:31

at the moment, but we might have to

13:33

have another treaty referendum to make it

13:35

happen. But Orban is, if you like, a

13:37

fifth columnist within the EU. You're

13:39

right in what you say. I mean, Orban

13:41

has definitely spoke very differently to how the

13:44

rest of the EU has on this. And

13:46

I think that's actually something that is worth

13:48

exploring. But what we need to make sure

13:50

is that countries that are like -minded that

13:52

do stand with Ukraine on this, that actually

13:54

put their foot forward here, whether that's through

13:56

finances, whether that's through aid, whether that's through

13:58

backup to Ukraine. Yeah, I think it's been

14:00

notable that the EU has been kind of

14:02

absent from any of these discussions this week

14:05

in the news reports. It's all been the

14:07

focus, it's all been on what the US

14:09

is saying, the US plan. I thought it

14:11

was striking to see that former British Prime

14:13

Minister Boris Johnson, even he came out and

14:15

criticised Trump's plans. And he's been, you know,

14:17

he's a good friend of Trump. We know

14:19

he's been a supporter of him in the

14:21

past. But he was saying, he was criticising

14:23

it and saying that under the US proposals,

14:26

Ukraine will get nothing. So I think it'll

14:28

be interesting to see what happens next week

14:30

where the EU comes back into the conversation. You

14:33

know the EU isn't in the same

14:35

position as it was before Brexit and

14:37

I think the UK and the EU

14:39

together have a serious role to play.

14:41

Now moving on to local matters and

14:43

housing in the news on a number

14:45

of fronts said this week social targets

14:47

for housing not being achieved by the

14:49

government's housing program. The Airbnb

14:51

story this morning from DSRI

14:54

saying Airbnb is not going

14:56

to help solve the problem

14:58

and any idea of extending

15:00

the help to buy scheme

15:02

to second -hand homes would

15:05

probably cause an increase in

15:07

prices. Listen, houses

15:09

are being built. They're not being

15:11

built fast enough. We absolutely accept that.

15:13

We did deliver 30 ,000 new homes

15:15

last year. Commencement's almost doubled last

15:17

year to 60 ,000. We have 500

15:19

first -hand buyers. every week drawing down

15:21

their first mortgages. We see it when

15:23

you go around Dublin in particular,

15:25

you see hoardings up, boots on the

15:27

ground, cranes in the sky. What

15:30

we need to do is accelerate that.

15:32

And there's policies now being put into

15:34

action by the new government to make

15:36

sure that our policy level we're accelerating

15:38

the targets last year, and I don't

15:40

know whether you'll hit them this year.

15:42

But then we have this business of

15:45

trying to get people to downsize and

15:47

other mechanisms like Airbnb to try and

15:49

solve. the government's housing problem. You're

15:51

saying to people who are making a

15:53

few bob in the countryside from Airbnb

15:55

and ESRI has shown that in most

15:57

of the holiday areas they are not

16:00

available for full -time letting, they are

16:02

part -time earn a few bob for the

16:04

family who own the accommodation, that's

16:06

what's happening there. So Airbnb

16:08

not going to be the panacea

16:10

and throwing older people out

16:12

of their houses to make way

16:14

for families, bigger

16:16

families. mean, I know it's

16:18

not being forced. I don't think that's

16:21

fair. Nobody's being forced. These are the

16:23

policies that are being put out there

16:25

to solve the housing problem and that's

16:27

not the solution. They're part of the

16:29

solution and they're part of the policies

16:31

being used. So that report that you

16:33

referred to earlier, which was a joint

16:35

report between the Department of Housing and

16:37

the SRI, has said that the registration

16:39

that we're going to be now making

16:41

mandatory, the fault Ireland will be using,

16:43

and we'll be overseeing for Airbnb's will

16:45

be crucial for ensuring a balanced approach

16:47

to regulation that looks at both the

16:49

need for tourist attraction and the need

16:51

for private rental. And that's a direct

16:53

quote from us. I mean, it has

16:55

four different recommendations there, all of which

16:57

have been taken on board by policy

16:59

and all of which are policy. What

17:01

do you make of a chain? Yeah,

17:03

I think I saw the top line

17:05

from the SRI report today for me

17:07

was that a fame that Airbnb listings,

17:09

increased Airbnb listings are not the recalls

17:11

of rental property shortages in Ireland. think

17:14

a lot of people would say, you know, fair,

17:16

I think I don't think anyone was claiming that

17:18

they were. But I mean,

17:20

we know that the government has said

17:22

themselves that up to 12 ,000 properties

17:24

could be brought back into the

17:26

housing market by regulating Airbnb. And

17:29

I think My sense since

17:31

the election is, you know, we're talking about

17:33

missed social housing targets there. If we

17:35

look back on that, like the missed social

17:37

housing targets for last year were missed

17:39

by almost 18%. It's a huge shortfall. And

17:42

then if we look at the targets last

17:44

year in general, we've missed the government missed the

17:46

housing targets for almost 10 ,000 homes. That's massive.

17:48

And I just think overall, if you look since

17:51

the election, it doesn't feel like this is

17:53

being treated like a crisis. Housing, it's

17:55

a long -standing crisis in this country and I think

17:57

even if you look at the what's happened since

17:59

the general election, since the start of this year, I

18:01

think we can point to a huge amount of

18:03

movement. Yeah, I mean I think the government has really

18:05

given up on addressing the housing

18:07

crisis. I think what we're seeing

18:09

is just they've decided to just spoof in terms

18:11

of figures. We've had it like multiple examples

18:13

now. So in the last election, obviously, we've had

18:15

a lot of coverage correctly about the fact

18:18

that they were saying 40 ,000, we're going to

18:20

hit 40 ,000, they knew they weren't going to

18:22

hit it. And of course, then we were at

18:24

30 ,000. Then we had the figures yesterday. So

18:26

the government admits that they missed the social

18:28

housing target. That's four years out of the last

18:30

five. They've missed the housing targets. The only

18:32

one they missed it in 2020. They hit it

18:34

in 2021. They missed it in

18:36

2022, 23. And 24 and let's remember

18:38

these are inadequate targets that are not enough

18:40

to deal with it But the other

18:42

thing the government yesterday in their press statement

18:45

on affordable housing they the same thing

18:47

they said unfortunately We missed the social housing,

18:49

but we miss we achieved the affordable

18:51

housing target. It's simply not true I mean

18:53

they're claiming the target was six thousand

18:55

four hundred and they hit seven thousand one

18:57

hundred twenty six But they're including over

18:59

four thousand homes there that simply should not

19:02

be included They were approving first home

19:04

approval figures. There are approvals not not bills.

19:06

They were including fake taken property refurbishment

19:08

grants that have no element of affordability in

19:10

it and were never previously included, and

19:12

they're including cost rental tenant and situ scheme,

19:14

which again shouldn't be included because there

19:16

is no element of affordability. People are paying

19:19

the same rents as they would have

19:21

been before. So it's just a really attempt

19:23

to duke the stats pretending they're achieving

19:25

something when actually the crisis is worse. Cost

19:27

rental is part of our affordability model. In

19:30

terms of this idea that people have

19:32

given up absolutely not since the new

19:34

government came into being. not long ago

19:36

at this point. Substantially the old government.

19:38

This is nonsense about new governments. You

19:40

have to carry the legacy of previous

19:42

acts. Absolutely. And for example, let me

19:44

give you one of those, the Planning

19:46

and Development Act, which was something that

19:48

the last government brought in, which now

19:50

we're working to put. is a license

19:52

for lawyers to make fortunes. It's too

19:55

complex. You walked away,

19:57

and it was Dara Brown who walked

19:59

away from the opportunity to simplify the process.

20:01

Instead, he made it infinitely more complex.

20:03

I don't believe so. I sat on that

20:05

housing committee for many, many hours and

20:07

many long days and many long nights. So

20:09

I know that Bill in detail. And

20:11

I do think that there is an awful

20:13

lot of opportunity within it. And I

20:15

think it will speed up planning decisions. And

20:17

we've now doubled the staff and on

20:20

board planola to make that happen as well.

20:22

We also have now announced the Strategic

20:24

Housing Activation Office, which is literally going to

20:26

be about unblocking. the blockages when it

20:28

comes to infrastructure delays, things like utility. We

20:30

know these are the issues that the

20:32

ESB and the Irish Water Connections are slowing

20:34

things down. We're now going to have

20:36

an accelerated task force with seconded experts from

20:38

the ESB and Irish Water to help

20:40

us unblock those issues. How many years has

20:42

it taken all of this to dawn

20:45

on you? I mean, there's different initiatives

20:47

being done over the last five years. I don't

20:49

think this idea that, oh, well, you didn't do

20:51

that before, why are you only doing it now?

20:53

That's not a reason to not do these things.

20:55

We need to do these things because we need

20:57

to accelerate the progress we've made. We know homes

20:59

are being built, but we want them to be

21:01

built faster. That's what this accelerated program's all about.

21:03

I think people at home will be thinking we

21:05

hear about these different schemes, we hear about cost

21:08

rental, we hear about all these different types of

21:10

affordable homes, social homes, and people go, well, in

21:12

reality, what does this mean for me? Like, hey,

21:14

you know, I'm on a house. list or I'm

21:16

a first -time buyer trying to buy a home,

21:18

my grandchildren are struggling to save and build up

21:20

a deposit by home and they feel like there's

21:22

no respite there for people. It doesn't feel like

21:24

the situation's improving. Pat, you mentioned some

21:26

of the housing supports that are there for first -time

21:28

buyers and the warnings that the government has received during

21:30

the help to buy scheme and the first home

21:32

scheme and how these are actually inflating house prices. I

21:34

can tell you, as someone who's looking thinking about

21:36

buying a house in Dublin, house prices are sky -high.

21:38

A lot of the new -build homes that are out

21:41

there, they don't even qualify for the help to buy

21:43

scheme because they're over. know, it's

21:45

qualified for the help device scheme. They have to be under half

21:47

a million. The property has to be under half a million euro. A

21:49

lot of the new bills, tree, bedroom, homes and

21:51

Dublin are over that. So, you know, you're out of

21:53

it anyway. I mean, yeah.

21:55

I mean, it's interesting. If

21:58

you go back to 2016, the

22:00

government was then promising to end homelessness.

22:02

People will remember that famous interview with Simon

22:04

Coven. You said, no one will be

22:06

in hotels after, I think it was July

22:09

2016. That was obviously

22:11

forgotten. There's more families than ever

22:13

growing up or raising their kids in

22:15

hotels. Over 4 ,000 children will go

22:17

to bed tonight in hotel rooms

22:19

or other forms of emergency accommodation. The

22:22

figures are going up and up and up. At

22:24

the time of the 2016 election, we've got 5

22:26

,000 people homeless. 2020, we've got 10 ,000 homeless. Now

22:28

we're over 15 ,000. And I really think the

22:30

government has... The strategy is to just normalize this

22:32

and say, this is just like the health crisis.

22:34

You know, sure, it's always there and what can

22:36

you do about it? And like, the government is

22:39

making it worse. For example, the floating of the

22:41

idea that we're going to bring in extra tax

22:43

breaks for developers. There's every chance that that has

22:45

slowed down developers because developers say, well, we'll hang

22:47

on a bit. Maybe we'll get tax incentives if

22:49

we don't do it this year. It's like we

22:51

have permission for a six -story block. Maybe we'll get

22:53

to eight if we hang on a bit. Exactly.

22:57

The answer i mean the housing commission report

22:59

which calls for a radical reset of housing

23:01

that is not happening the government is digging

23:03

in deeper to the same policies which is

23:05

incentivizing the market and instead we need to

23:07

say the market is not working i believe

23:09

and we've said many times in the program

23:12

that a rules based situation for planning would

23:14

solve a lot of problems because the locals

23:16

know what the rules are the developer knows

23:18

what the rules are the council knows what

23:20

the rules are and if you fit within

23:22

the rules you can build. and the government

23:24

walked away from that. They want to be

23:26

able to interfere and tinker and mess about.

23:28

They want to accept the rules basis. The

23:30

example, and Imer would know it, is City

23:32

West. So in City West, you've

23:35

just apartment block after apartment block going

23:37

up, most of them being built to

23:39

rent. They were all outside in terms

23:41

of densities, facilities, community infrastructure, outside a

23:43

decent local plan set by the council,

23:45

and we're all done through the strategic

23:47

housing development process, whereby they got to

23:49

fast track. and you're not building liveable

23:51

communities by doing so. You know, we

23:54

need to build more homes, we need

23:56

to build liveable communities where people want

23:58

to live and so on. A final

24:00

post on this, it is disgraceful appalling

24:02

in 2025 we have a housing crisis.

24:04

When we didn't have a scent in

24:06

the 40s and 50s, we built houses.

24:08

It's a political disgrace. I don't know

24:10

what the solution is. We've talked about

24:12

it long enough. for the moment anyway,

24:14

my thanks to Emery Higgins TD, Minister

24:16

of State for Public Procurement, Digitalization and

24:18

D -Government, F and Gwail Dublin TD,

24:20

Paul Murphy TD, People Before Profit from

24:22

Southwest, and Jane Matthews, political correspondent at

24:24

TheJournal .ie. And that's all we have time

24:26

for. Don't forget our items from today

24:29

are uploaded as podcasts, which you can

24:31

listen to on the News Talk app

24:33

by Goloud. Just search for the Pat

24:35

Kenney Show. My thanks to our team,

24:37

editor, Emery Bradley, senior producer Clare Darmady,

24:39

producer Neve Dunn, the the researcher Kian

24:41

Burns, broadcast assistant Andrew Kane and Cormac

24:43

McDonough Unsound. The

24:45

Pat Kenney Show with Aviva

24:47

Insurance on News Talk.