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0:31

Want to welcome everyone back to the

0:33

Pekin Yono show How you doing Thomas? Doing

0:36

well man. Thanks, sir. Thanks for

0:38

hosting me as always of course

0:40

I'm gonna start something

0:43

new here. Don't really

0:45

know Have an idea of

0:47

how many episodes you have in mind

0:49

for this, but this is a

0:51

a pretty big topic and a requested

0:53

topic. So Operation Gladio. Yeah,

0:56

I suggest we play it

0:58

by ear, figuratively and literally, and

1:01

see how long it takes us to

1:03

cover the material and not just

1:05

what we consider a, you

1:08

know, a more than adequate capacity,

1:10

but that the subs like want to hear

1:12

about. Gladio

1:14

is one of these misunderstood things. You

1:17

know, there's a great

1:19

deal of brutality

1:22

of a of a particular sort

1:24

I mean the Cold War the Cold

1:26

War was neither with a condition

1:28

of neither war nor peace So

1:30

even behind the verbal

1:32

lines of peace in

1:34

divided Europe You know,

1:36

there was a certain

1:39

callousness that that

1:41

bled into contemplation of

1:43

what was not just

1:45

necessary, but also reasonable, you

1:48

know, the

1:51

moral metric shifted.

1:53

Okay. I

1:56

mean, obviously in

1:58

in Southeast Asia, what

2:02

was very much late bearer was that, you know,

2:04

okay, the face of

2:06

modern warfare very much

2:08

reduces attrition to

2:11

a To

2:15

to a you know to

2:17

a subjective goal, you

2:20

know that must be

2:22

coded in the

2:24

most concrete terms possible

2:26

and Study it as

2:29

to you know the Impactfulness

2:31

on on victory

2:33

odds You know

2:35

that quite literally the

2:37

manufacturer of human

2:39

corpses facilitates or does not facilitate

2:42

But again, too, you

2:44

know, they were

2:47

Like peace didn't really

2:49

rain anywhere in the

2:51

Cold War that Was a

2:53

contested battle space and

2:55

obviously Europe proper You

2:58

know the the

3:01

the inner German

3:03

border West You

3:05

know, thank God that didn't become

3:08

an active battle space was I'm

3:10

always citing like William Odom Anyone

3:13

who served anyone was

3:16

deployed there, you

3:18

know On either side

3:20

Would relay that like

3:22

these were not peace conditions. It

3:24

felt like being in war, you know,

3:27

it was not remotely like

3:29

any other, you know peacetime

3:31

posting and People

3:34

look at something like

3:36

Operation Gladio they

3:38

It's a gross affront, I guess, you know

3:41

not just to their Not

3:45

not just that they're kind

3:47

of like moral conceptual

3:49

horizon just in absolute terms

3:51

But the idea that this kind

3:53

of thing could be carried out under

3:55

conditions of peace is just like a

3:57

bondable to abominable to them and

4:00

interestingly it's lumped in

4:02

with The

4:06

Phoenix program which

4:08

obviously did what which obviously was

4:10

like and you know a

4:14

MacVSog operation

4:16

and MacVSog was

4:19

very adjacent to CIA in those

4:21

days. It

4:24

was a MacVSog and

4:26

U .S. civilian intelligence

4:28

operation that constituted

4:30

direct action

4:32

targeting of

4:35

discrete personages who constituted

4:38

the NOF infrastructure

4:40

because you're fighting a non -state

4:42

actor, obviously, Human

4:45

beings are the infrastructure of

4:47

your ops. Okay, but you know

4:49

people discussed it

4:51

during obviously like

4:54

the the the

4:56

gates committee hearings

4:58

They kind of gilded CIA and people talk

5:00

about it today. Um

5:02

Like all

5:04

this what what horrible overreach it's

5:06

it's unbelievable America and Americans could

5:08

do something like this Which is really

5:10

kind of preposterous man because that

5:13

by definition, you

5:15

know, not just an asymmetrical

5:17

war, but an ideological

5:19

war in a Cold War

5:21

battle space, you know,

5:23

whereby on top of everything else, you

5:26

know, there's this kind

5:28

of profound difference

5:30

between combatants, you know,

5:33

culturally racially, you

5:35

know, every other way.

5:38

Okay. I mean, that you

5:40

come as no surprise anybody and i i

5:42

don't want to go too far field but yes

5:46

there were instances of corruption

5:48

within the phoenix program

5:50

you know some

5:52

some army the army of the republic of

5:54

vietnam like intelligence officer like got mad at some

5:56

guy like carrying out with his wife and this

5:58

guy ended up on the list and ended

6:01

up getting whacked

6:03

and that's horrible and

6:05

it's indefensible but

6:07

in absolute terms you know

6:09

presuming a basic integrity The

6:12

officers and and nco's involved

6:14

and I believe it

6:16

was exclusively officers and nco's

6:18

and particularly in those days

6:20

of special forces That was

6:22

about pretty

6:24

rigidly Maintained them

6:27

schema You know

6:30

Had it

6:32

bad where it was

6:34

was implemented as intended Not

6:36

only was it highly effective in my opinion,

6:38

but It was

6:40

far far far more

6:42

justifiable in moral terms

6:45

You know then deploying arc light

6:47

raids, you know that drop

6:49

500 pound bombs on You know

6:51

on on women kids and

6:53

old people you know in middle

6:55

of a race petty but You

6:58

know so when

7:00

people talk about Gladio

7:05

as if they're discussing You know,

7:08

something like a real life horror film. You

7:11

should look at it in those terms that

7:13

has to have for mentioned, you know, and

7:15

or you consider the same thing as people

7:17

do who suggest like the penitentiary regime, like

7:19

the distill the essence of evil. It's

7:22

been this kind of bogeyman,

7:24

this conceptual bogeyman, for

7:26

whatever reason, I speculate there's some

7:28

seminal text, whether it's by Howard

7:30

Zand or Chomsky and. I

7:33

really challenge he's done some worthwhile

7:35

things, but I think even

7:37

his most ardent defenders at least you

7:40

know, who are tuned into your content

7:42

would agree with me that you

7:44

know His

7:46

uh His

7:48

objectivity was compromised

7:50

by these deeply I

7:53

argue almost theologically

7:56

felt conceptual biases, but

8:00

There's number there's a number of

8:02

things going on with gladio. Okay. First

8:04

of all the Cold War was

8:06

a totally abnormal conflict, you know

8:08

I'm always making the

8:10

point again and again one of the

8:12

reasons it's completely foolhardy You

8:15

know whether it's Lindsey Graham or

8:17

whether it's you know, they're kind

8:19

of pitiable You know soon to

8:21

be former president on Biden

8:23

Talk about like you know Putin

8:25

not not not Russia Putin like

8:27

He's not gonna stop in Ukraine.

8:29

He's gonna go to Poland like

8:31

this But like like this at this

8:33

idea that states, you know, like

8:36

a madman just kind of somehow

8:38

by accident of fate or By

8:40

dial and ruthlessness,

8:42

you know capture apparatus of

8:44

space and proceed like capture

8:46

land like somehow like a more

8:48

like if you collect enough Fertile women

8:50

and sore like and grow like sorghum

8:52

or something like you win Like,

8:55

I don't even know what their notion

8:57

is, but even those obsolescence,

8:59

really even

9:02

by the Second World

9:04

War, saved for the fact

9:06

of the need of, for

9:08

Germany or Japan, or one

9:10

of the disadvantaged combatants, when

9:12

I say disadvantaged, I mean,

9:14

vis -a -vis their power potential to,

9:17

you know, become actually superpower, know,

9:20

yes. um, Grossrom. and

9:22

is the

9:25

basis of

9:27

political and military challenges, which

9:30

becomes synonymous and discreet and

9:32

totally unusual ways under such

9:34

conditions, but also like Laban's

9:36

Rom, even if you totally

9:38

reject outright, you know, the

9:40

kind of national socialist view

9:42

of blutes and Ross and everything

9:44

else. I mean, that That's,

9:48

there, that was,

9:50

um... The 20th

9:52

century was uh You

9:56

know essentially it was um

9:58

it was the grand clash of

10:00

uh It

10:03

was the grand clash of

10:05

civilizations to determine like what

10:07

globalism would be okay, so Once

10:13

the Cold War set

10:15

in an earnest You know

10:17

you're you're ops you were fighting your

10:19

ops because They become the

10:21

standard bearers of of of

10:23

an idea. And

10:26

America was always kind

10:28

of returning the serve to the

10:30

communists. Because that

10:33

both that conceptual

10:35

environment as well

10:37

as you know what

10:39

military imperatives were

10:42

prioritized within that paradigm. You

10:45

know that it was it was

10:47

the it was the it was the Warsaw Pact.

10:50

and their adjacent

10:52

elements, you know, who

10:54

are the ones pursuing a

10:57

revolutionary imperative.

11:00

So, I mean, that was the

11:02

problem. And that was one

11:04

of George Kennan's points, you

11:07

know, in the long memo

11:09

or whatever. It's

11:11

not that, you know, we've got

11:13

to challenge the Soviet Union and

11:15

Warsaw Pact for every inch of ground.

11:17

It's that... We've got to put ourselves in

11:19

a position where we're not simply reacting and

11:21

returning the serve, you know,

11:23

um, no. How

11:30

do you do that? If

11:32

again, your, your

11:35

ops are the standard bearers of

11:37

an idea, you

11:39

know, and, um, really

11:41

your victory metric to

11:43

accomplish global domination, destroy

11:46

all competing ideologies, you

11:48

know, assimilate people into

11:50

this world society, um,

11:55

essentially, you know, that was

11:57

envisioned by the Nuremberg, um,

12:01

you know, um, ideology,

12:04

but, you know, obviously

12:06

the Soviet Union was

12:08

the concord between United States and the

12:11

Soviet Union had totally fallen apart. So,

12:13

Any future victory scenario would entail

12:15

the United States basically inheriting

12:17

the mantle of what was envisioned,

12:20

you know by

12:22

the Nuremberg ideological program,

12:24

but the way that

12:26

You know the way that

12:28

you win that is by eradicating

12:30

the enemy idea and In

12:33

under conditions of active

12:35

war that causes the

12:37

eradication of humans Who

12:40

are the standard bearers

12:42

of? You know

12:44

the enemy idea

12:46

Such that you

12:48

know ongoing variety

12:50

of criteria

12:53

or perhaps even just

12:55

one singular Distinctively resilient

12:57

um criteria That

13:00

they can't be reeducated or

13:02

somehow like assimilated into a

13:04

new paradigm. Okay, obviously this

13:06

is implications for um, you

13:09

know the The

13:11

absolute enmity between

13:13

the Reich

13:16

and European Jewry, such

13:18

that European Jewry, who

13:20

was a self -conscious, self

13:23

-identified political actor. But

13:27

that's a bit outside the

13:29

scope of what we're talking about.

13:31

But there's complications that

13:33

were emergent here

13:35

that must be considered

13:38

within those realities that is

13:40

explicated. Okay, and

13:42

this is very important

13:44

now Interestingly

13:47

and perhaps this won't

13:49

won't surprise anybody You know

13:51

really the pioneers of

13:53

political warfare

13:56

as You

13:58

know from the side of

14:00

you know the

14:02

colonialist power or From

14:05

the perspective of you know

14:07

the more powerful combatant Or

14:11

if you will you know

14:13

the the party come bad

14:15

and who like America who

14:17

was You know perpetually

14:20

returning to serve

14:22

When op for decided to

14:24

act You know the United Kingdom

14:26

really kind of perfected What

14:29

became asymmetrical warfare doctrine

14:31

and political warfare doctrine,

14:33

okay? We're

14:38

talking about operation banner and how Frank

14:40

Kitson, you know, in Northern Ireland,

14:42

especially going to our viewing of Resurrection

14:44

Man. Frank

14:47

Kitson, one

14:50

of his, I mean, basically

14:53

the key takeaway from

14:55

his kind of operational

14:57

theory, if it

14:59

can be distilled down to one kind

15:01

of core principle on how to wage

15:03

war against an insurgency, is

15:05

you've got to create a counter gang.

15:07

You've got to do this in some way

15:09

that's basically organic. Okay,

15:12

you know, you've got to work with what the

15:14

Germans call the mentioned material that's on the ground. You've

15:17

got to sort of mold

15:19

them and their political

15:21

and military conceptual horizon around

15:23

what's instinctively already

15:25

present, you know, and

15:28

you've got to sort of transform

15:30

those energies into something that's, you

15:32

know, deadlier,

15:35

more efficient. More

15:37

military with a capital

15:39

M, you know and

15:41

more workable in an

15:43

integrated command capacity You

15:45

know then would

15:47

just kind of

15:50

be there, you

15:52

know, like auto

15:54

-ethonically or whatever

15:57

And of course Kitson You

16:00

know despite the fact that he

16:02

was only the commander on

16:04

the ground in an operation banner

16:06

on Northern Ireland for about

16:09

two or three years that Conflict

16:11

model endured the

16:13

duration of hostilities and

16:15

I've made the

16:17

point again and again

16:19

that You

16:22

know when when

16:25

the provisioned IRA and

16:27

adjacent Republican armed

16:30

group makes mothers would insist

16:32

that There was form

16:34

formal collusion underway

16:36

between the British security elements

16:38

and loyalists that was

16:40

true Okay, now

16:42

that doesn't mean that You

16:45

know Frank Kitson got together and

16:47

hired some mercenary types and said

16:49

okay, you're now the Ulster volunteer

16:51

force You know or you're now ready in

16:53

commando. It was nothing like that like

16:55

what they did was they looked at

16:58

what they looked at what was already developing

17:00

on the ground, you know,

17:02

in, uh, you

17:04

know, the, the,

17:06

the sectarian war on the

17:08

street where like literal battle lines

17:10

are being established between. You

17:13

know, sectarian livings, like between living

17:15

spaces, based on sectarian criteria, and

17:18

you had these militias just

17:20

spontaneously forming, you know, so

17:23

they began approaching, you know,

17:26

guys like Gusty

17:28

Spence, you know

17:31

who Was indispensable and

17:33

um the the

17:35

the re -creation of the

17:37

Ulster volunteer force in

17:39

1966 Spence inserting combat in

17:41

Greece with the British army

17:43

Okay, um the UVF was

17:45

always kind of the shrapunct

17:47

of loyalism You know the

17:49

UDA was this kind of like

17:51

mass vigilante movement which wasn't out

17:54

well until 92 but Uff

17:56

which was technically

17:58

like their direct action

18:00

wing That was

18:02

very very very much

18:04

cultivated by British intelligence and

18:06

military elements. Okay, and by

18:09

by 1993

18:11

Loyalists were out

18:13

killing the IRA You

18:16

know suddenly like it has

18:18

became very very good at

18:20

targeting people who were either

18:22

um, you know IR

18:25

provisional IRA members

18:27

or You know

18:30

Shin fain representatives or

18:32

social democrats. They wanted dead

18:34

for whatever reason like suddenly loyalists

18:36

became very very good at what

18:38

they did Okay, I mean no

18:40

means like it's saying like what they did

18:42

was good, but when they found a rationality

18:44

You know and that um kitchen's

18:47

old point was look You

18:49

know, and he was comparing in punitive terms where

18:52

the British do things the Americans and the

18:54

Germans he's like, know, you don't you don't bring

18:56

little just more and more firepower

18:58

to bear, you know against

19:00

Against an insurgency,

19:02

you know, you're you're gonna

19:04

kill a whole lot of people You

19:07

know, many of whom are

19:09

you know women kids

19:11

old people and just you

19:13

know other people who are

19:15

You know clearly non combatants and

19:17

you're probably gonna You're probably

19:19

gonna create more insurgents

19:22

than you annihilate,

19:24

but also There's gotta be

19:26

kind of like a menu wet

19:28

like ridiculous as it sounds between

19:30

forces under

19:32

arms, you know for

19:34

them to For once hostile

19:36

contact is made for them to

19:39

remain engaged and actually,

19:41

you know push for victory, you

19:44

know by But

19:47

by you'll by way killing the

19:49

enemy, you know

19:51

If you if you

19:53

sick your counter gang lose on

19:55

like this gang of like Mao Mao

19:57

rebels if you lose like the

19:59

UVF on the

20:02

Pira When they

20:04

make Contact you're

20:06

gonna fight it out and slaughter each other

20:08

in a way that wouldn't happen if

20:10

you know you You

20:13

know you you roll you roll

20:15

crusader tanks into the streets when the

20:17

IRA does anything you don't like

20:19

You know they'll disappear literally into

20:21

the ether and then the like

20:23

a lot of satchel charge into like the

20:25

turret hatch You know like one of your when one

20:27

of your people like pops us head out for a

20:29

smoke, you know

20:31

And that's something that's

20:34

kind of understated Needing

20:36

to mirror what opt for

20:38

is in order to annihilate

20:40

him In

20:42

kind of like the

20:44

post -conventional Westphalian landscape

20:48

now What was

20:51

gladio and how does

20:53

that have to

20:55

do with like anything

20:57

I was just

20:59

talking about well Around

21:01

1952 American

21:04

the UK this is when they became

21:06

really truly kind of like fully

21:08

indexed military

21:10

terms not not not just at

21:13

the operational and kind of command

21:15

and control level and and drilling

21:17

with one another you know like

21:19

in the inter -german border

21:21

you know be at the

21:23

north German north German planes

21:25

was primarily the British that

21:27

Benelux state's responsibility and like

21:29

the foley gap was primarily

21:32

American armored cavalry's area

21:34

of operation But they like

21:36

like a conceptual indexing like took

21:38

a route and I believe a lot

21:40

of this owed the fact that

21:42

by by January 52. Obviously

21:46

both you know American forces

21:48

as well as you know the

21:50

British army had been engaged

21:52

you know in a very brutal

21:54

conflict in Korea. Okay

21:57

the learning curve is

21:59

expanding. In all

22:01

kinds of ways relating to the study of

22:03

war. Okay.

22:05

They developed this need

22:07

within the minds of,

22:10

you know, military analyst types on the

22:12

civilian side and kind of like

22:14

think tank whiz kids, who are ubiquitous

22:16

in the Cold War, as we've

22:18

talked about. But also,

22:21

you know, military officers,

22:23

you know, from from

22:25

from company level upward,

22:27

you know, like we

22:29

need We

22:31

need to develop some kind

22:33

of tactical strategic imperatives

22:35

You know relating to asymmetrical

22:37

warfare that allows you

22:39

know the the realization of

22:41

you know kind of

22:44

like the full spectrum of

22:46

our of our killing

22:48

power but again without Without

22:50

allowing politics to creep

22:52

into decision -making you know

22:54

in a way that You

22:56

know, it's kind of

22:58

proven fatal in some key

23:00

instances vis -vis the managerial

23:02

state You know, like

23:04

if you're interested to go

23:06

on Algeria like first

23:08

and foremost, I mean, I

23:10

think the goal was

23:12

not it I don't think

23:14

highly of them, but

23:16

just in purely objective terms.

23:18

I mean, that's one

23:20

example but so In 1952

23:22

and especially after the

23:24

experience of fighting the People's

23:26

Liberation Army at China You

23:29

know And this this

23:31

this kind of like endless

23:33

ability of them to

23:35

absorb casualties You know And

23:37

utilize combined arms with

23:39

Soviet help and there's a

23:41

lot of Soviet pilots

23:43

flying sorties over Korea And

23:45

kind of horrifyingly a

23:47

number of American POWs ended

23:49

up in the Soviet

23:51

Union and never returned but

23:53

because it may You

23:55

know it became clear that

24:01

when war comes and

24:03

Mind you this was

24:05

you know this was

24:07

long before a strategic

24:09

Perry existed between the

24:11

United States and Warsaw

24:14

Pact, but I mean

24:16

it was also before

24:18

the It was also

24:20

one like man man

24:22

bombers or you know

24:24

the the zenith of

24:26

of kind of strategic

24:28

nuclear platforms But

24:31

um the understanding was

24:33

in basically every scenario

24:35

game that You know

24:37

the Warsaw Pact is

24:39

gonna overrun Europe. They're

24:42

gonna smash that the

24:44

National Volksarmy Which emerged

24:46

later but in 1952

24:48

a combination of a

24:50

Volkspulitz I were The

24:52

East German army and

24:55

all but name and

24:57

group of Soviet forces

24:59

in Germany were responsible

25:01

for the operational sector

25:03

I'm about to describe.

25:06

After 1956, it became

25:08

the National Volksarmies domain. They

25:11

were going to smash

25:13

through the inner German border,

25:16

you know, which

25:19

at the time the Berlin

25:21

Wall wasn't there. After the Berlin

25:23

Wall was created, interestingly, there

25:25

were these like weak points

25:27

where like charges could like blow

25:29

holes. You know so that

25:31

the national books army could storm

25:33

through with armor, but because

25:35

it may The understanding that was

25:37

in war came the national

25:39

books army They're gonna storm west

25:41

Berlin. Well,

25:44

um, you know

25:46

the Warsaw

25:48

Pact overshoots Berlin

25:51

assaults across

25:53

the north German

25:55

plane Smasher

25:58

to the foley gap

26:00

almost certainly utilizing chemical

26:02

weapons and possibly tactical

26:04

nuclear weapons if necessary

26:06

and NATO at best

26:09

get a hold out

26:11

for 72 hours, you

26:13

know until Until the

26:15

Soviet army reaches the

26:17

Rhine and then even

26:20

if NATO has the

26:22

capacity to reconstitute It's

26:24

not gonna have the

26:26

forces and being in

26:28

order to prevent them,

26:31

you know a further

26:33

Soviet push, you know,

26:35

think Atlantic Ocean Okay,

26:37

so you're looking at

26:39

a situation where okay

26:42

You know and in

26:44

these days mind you

26:46

the catalyst changed for

26:48

why this was considered

26:51

in Terms

26:53

almost exclusively of conventional

26:55

warfighting save again for you

26:57

know the tactical deployment

26:59

of chemical and nuclear weapons

27:01

and the read this

27:03

this isn't This endured 30

27:06

years later, but for

27:08

very different reasons and we'll

27:10

get into that but

27:12

The fact isn't a basically

27:14

it's an in a

27:16

basically conventional fight NATO is

27:18

gonna be overrun by

27:21

the massive superiority

27:23

of forces in being

27:26

by Warsaw Pact. Okay.

27:31

The only hope

27:34

really of liberating

27:36

the continent in

27:38

these cases would

27:41

be some sort

27:43

of infrastructure in

27:46

situ that can

27:48

be activated. you

27:50

know in order to

27:52

Generate an insurgency like

27:54

a pre -existing insurgency

27:57

basically and this had

27:59

never really been before

28:01

unless you count the

28:03

vietcong, but it's kind

28:05

of a different thing

28:08

but you know the

28:10

understanding was that Men

28:12

were selected who were

28:14

designated, you know to

28:16

be stay behind elements All

28:22

the way up to, I

28:24

believe, battalion level. Arms

28:27

caches were hidden, escape

28:29

routes were prepared, clinically

28:32

loyal civilians

28:34

were recruited, who

28:36

in turn developed

28:38

their own social infrastructure

28:40

around what was

28:43

to become the core

28:45

mission in event

28:47

of a Soviet conquest.

28:52

Plant the truth truly

28:54

clean this truly

28:56

clandestine cells were established

28:58

Who made contact

29:01

with one another but

29:03

didn't even make

29:05

contact with each other's

29:07

respective handlers, you

29:09

know or with the

29:11

above board but

29:13

still highly secret Gladio

29:15

designated elements and

29:17

This was largely devised

29:20

by the United King what

29:22

was Which during World

29:25

War two what came to

29:27

be called the United

29:29

Kingdom's special operations executive Okay,

29:31

um Gladio was largely

29:34

created with the experience and

29:36

involvement of former SOE

29:38

officers I had the pleasure

29:40

a man who was

29:42

a dear friend of my

29:45

family and who Was

29:48

actually one of the

29:51

reasons I'm going to

29:53

the old university is

29:55

because he taught there

29:57

his name was Samu

29:59

Sarkeesian as you might've

30:01

gleaned he was Armenian

30:04

his parents were Armenian

30:06

immigrants He was in

30:08

the special forces He

30:10

was in a heavy

30:12

action in Korea in

30:14

the infantry and He

30:17

was one of the first

30:19

true green berets, you know to

30:22

pass the Q course and

30:24

get the green beret and why

30:26

they recruit him It wasn't

30:28

just because he was an excellent

30:30

combat soldier. It's because he

30:32

was Armenian, you know, he could

30:34

stay behind and blend in

30:36

you know and the earliest Like

30:39

special forces became something somewhat

30:41

different or it included that mission

30:43

as well as like many

30:45

other adjacent

30:48

One just time went on

30:50

but That really is the

30:52

birth of special forces. It's

30:54

very much a cold war

30:56

Creature You know, I'm not

30:58

saying it's bad or something

31:00

actually think I actually already

31:03

special forces is in a

31:05

lot better shape these days

31:07

then I Think so kind

31:09

of got a lot of

31:11

problems that I don't want

31:13

I don't want to upset

31:15

the The our friends

31:17

were military guys and

31:19

they I mean like

31:21

our literal friends of

31:23

ours like I'm not

31:25

telling like Randall's and

31:27

I I They don't

31:29

mean they know I

31:31

hold them in tremendous

31:33

respect, but at them

31:35

Point being you know

31:37

it This was very

31:39

much You know sustained

31:41

very seriously and um

31:45

Not only was like

31:47

for example like my

31:49

my my mentor and

31:51

family friend the Circassian

31:53

like not only was

31:55

he a you know,

31:57

Armenian immigrant stock, but

31:59

the dialectical inflection he

32:01

could affect that Properly

32:03

to fit in with

32:05

locals, you know This

32:08

was very very sophisticated

32:10

and operational terms especially

32:12

for the time Now

32:16

something interesting happened

32:18

as always developed

32:21

and The center

32:23

of gladio because

32:25

of the gladio

32:27

is Italy. Okay.

32:30

No Now why

32:32

Italy? You

32:34

know Italy I

32:36

maintain that The

32:41

real evidence the Marshall plan it

32:43

wasn't it wasn't just uh It

32:45

wasn't what Stalin said and just

32:47

you know kind of bind the

32:49

Buddhist Republic to American debt or

32:51

whatever like yeah I mean that

32:53

was like an added benefit, but

32:55

I mean the Buddhist Republic was

32:57

done. I mean they were They

33:00

were being more in that plan

33:02

out of existence like Italy on

33:04

the other hand Just geo strategically

33:06

as well as in sheer economic

33:08

terms for You know

33:10

a European zone of

33:12

commerce and industry, you know,

33:14

they were incredibly important

33:16

Okay Italy had to be

33:18

brought in the NATO

33:21

Italy also had to be

33:23

repaired From the devastation

33:25

it had suffered, you know

33:27

and um throughout the

33:29

50s and 60s You know

33:31

Italy ended up becoming

33:33

I think for a time,

33:35

you know like the

33:37

fifth largest economy in

33:39

the world, you know

33:42

Italy also it never

33:44

underwent a denotification process

33:46

It uh, there was

33:48

still a very active

33:50

communist party there, you

33:52

know that that didn't

33:54

just participate and challenge

33:56

for seats, but they

33:58

insinuated themselves in the

34:00

coalition governments regularly, you

34:02

know and on the

34:04

other side You had

34:06

openly fascist and national

34:08

socialist parties that Were

34:10

rabidly they weren't just

34:12

rabidly anti -communist they

34:14

were rabidly anti -soviet they

34:16

still viewed the Soviet

34:18

Union like as their

34:20

ops Okay, and I

34:22

maintain You know the

34:24

big or maybe you

34:26

don't know I mean

34:28

you're a relearned guy,

34:30

but some of this

34:32

stuff is trivia You

34:35

know Yaki had a huge

34:37

falling out with Mosley and

34:39

Mosley refused the the published

34:41

Imperium and through the union

34:43

movement Brand because Mosley was

34:45

like an arch cold warrior,

34:47

you know like 110 %

34:49

and a lot of people

34:51

are like well He was

34:54

trying to find his way

34:56

back to respectability and in

34:58

British political life. I don't

35:00

think that's the case. I think you

35:02

really believe that Okay Well

35:04

anybody who knows anybody who knows what

35:06

Moseley went through in the next, you

35:08

know 15 to 20 years knows that

35:10

he he what he knew he wasn't

35:13

getting back into Oh, yeah, yeah mainstream

35:15

of politics. Yeah, I mean, that's ridiculous.

35:17

What he was saying I think he's

35:19

gonna become prime minister or something I

35:21

mean like what the fair people thinking

35:23

what it's uh Yeah, there's video on

35:25

YouTube of him in like 1962 going

35:28

into some British town to talk and

35:30

their people chasing him trying to beat

35:32

him It's

35:35

a preposterous claim and like who's

35:37

he trying to impress and plus

35:39

like Mosley Even in the even

35:41

in the interwar years like I

35:43

mean Mosley did his own thing.

35:45

He was He indexed very much

35:47

with Hitler But at the point

35:49

he disagreed with Hitler on he

35:51

was like open about it. I

35:53

mean like any Yeah, he one

35:55

of the reasons he's a hero

35:57

of mine. He's very like free

35:59

thinking man, but so Italy

36:01

being this back to where

36:03

we were Italy being Italy being

36:05

grounds are gladio again. It

36:07

wasn't just because the political the

36:09

internal political situation You know

36:11

that they need to bring Italy

36:13

back into the fold of

36:15

Europe or into its generous penumbra

36:17

You know what was then

36:19

the European coal and steel community?

36:22

You know and to end up

36:24

bringing up the snuff as

36:26

um as a real as a

36:28

real, you know like regional

36:30

power into itself but also you

36:32

had in gladio was you

36:34

had you had a whole lot

36:36

of very fit very committed

36:38

fascist men of military age who

36:41

had experience you know what

36:43

i mean these this is not

36:45

a kind of duty that

36:47

just regular guys are going to

36:49

sign on for you know

36:51

even if they're basic patriotic anti

36:53

-communist like you need uh Like

36:55

you need basically like like fascist

36:57

jihadi for something like this, okay?

37:01

You know and it's also to you

37:03

know, how do you how do

37:05

you recruit? men for

37:07

For these roles you you don't just

37:09

like put an ad out, you know

37:12

and like the then equivalent of you

37:14

know Craigslist or something, you know, like

37:16

as it was in 2006, you know,

37:18

you know, you know just You know,

37:20

you know after the evening news, you

37:22

know, just say like You know, we're

37:24

building a stay behind fascist army, you

37:26

know, would you want to be part

37:28

of it? You know, they

37:30

they had like, um You

37:32

know nato uh intelligence as

37:34

well as uh You know

37:36

like the nato is kind

37:39

of commanding control element Um,

37:41

which would have been at

37:43

that point Um supreme allied

37:45

command in europe they had

37:47

to basically Which is why

37:49

I brought up, you know

37:51

kitson at this point on

37:53

counter yanks They basically had

37:55

the index with, you

37:57

know, the fascist resistance

37:59

that still existed there

38:01

and these national socialist

38:03

guys who'd never changed

38:05

their stripes and who

38:07

were very, very active. You

38:10

know, you basically to

38:12

index with them when some

38:14

kind of trust sell

38:16

them on the merits of

38:18

the mission and you

38:20

know, convince them to essentially

38:22

start So start training

38:24

for this, you know, what

38:26

was that a very like

38:29

real contingency and don't organize

38:31

these people into cells, you

38:33

know Like a cell stroke

38:35

that's actually workable that allows

38:37

them, you know, to become

38:39

habituated to their the command

38:42

structure of of whatever I

38:44

Don't know the force levels

38:46

would have been exactly but

38:48

You know whatever arm element

38:50

they were part of but

38:52

also it got them habituated

38:55

to drilling with one example

38:57

with another and all the

38:59

other kind of psychosocial imperatives

39:01

That one needs to cultivate

39:03

if you're gonna send you

39:05

know what is called in

39:08

military sociology a primary group

39:10

of men You know into

39:12

action but a lot of

39:14

this You know

39:16

a lot of people didn't

39:18

know about any of this

39:20

I mean people like my

39:22

dad did but like I

39:24

mentioned my dad so secret

39:27

squirrel But he was a

39:29

position to know about certain

39:31

things that other people didn't

39:33

But the general public It

39:35

really didn't know About the

39:37

scope breath and purpose and

39:39

gladiator until about October 1990,

39:41

okay And that was very

39:43

interesting because basically like right

39:45

about a year after the

39:47

intergerman border collapsed A lot

39:49

of these um A lot

39:51

of these um A lot

39:53

of these kinds of like

39:56

deep dark streets of the

39:58

cold war going away that

40:00

way where it's kind of

40:02

like Things that had been

40:04

very eyes only Um, like

40:06

somebody came to light. I

40:08

think the piece I think

40:10

it said the people are

40:12

in control of a lot

40:14

of this data They knew

40:16

that this was very very

40:18

rapidly, you know, gonna be

40:20

kind of censored and take

40:22

that as taking out a

40:24

circulation which is exactly what

40:27

happened So yeah, it's not

40:29

like it's now or never

40:31

now So in october 1990

40:33

um i'm gonna butcher this

40:35

name and i'm so sorry

40:37

but uh um julio androtti

40:39

um He issued for this

40:41

series of revelations relating to

40:43

the internal situation like of

40:45

the western bloc like pretty

40:47

much from you know the

40:49

emergence in nato and um

40:51

especially kind of the starting

40:53

point was you know mid

40:55

korean war like when gladio

40:58

first became kind of you

41:00

know became more than just

41:02

sort of uh you know

41:04

like an abstract uh you

41:06

know model bandied about it

41:08

among like war college types

41:10

um julio and drotty um I

41:14

think he was something of

41:16

like an Italian and an hour

41:18

man, but Not quite Um,

41:21

I think was I think he

41:23

was far more of a

41:25

compelling person is I don't mean

41:27

that negatively, but he my

41:29

point is that he wasn't Even

41:31

considering the Italian situation he

41:33

was in he was unusual for

41:35

a post post for a

41:38

European executive Um in droughty he

41:40

was the 41st prime minister

41:42

of Italy He

41:45

served in seven governments

41:47

72 73 76 79

41:49

1989 to 92 He

41:51

was really And he

41:53

was the leader of the

41:55

primary organizer the Christian

41:58

Democrats from the earliest

42:00

days And here's something

42:02

people don't understand the

42:04

Christian Democrats in Europe.

42:06

They're not Just like

42:08

the republicans or the tories.

42:10

They were basically the

42:12

vatican party Um in italy

42:14

to a lesser degree

42:16

in germany like after

42:18

world war two Okay,

42:20

they were genuinely conservative

42:22

They were socially right

42:24

-wing They had a very

42:27

strong identification with the

42:29

catholic church and and catholic

42:31

Would allister magandar, I

42:33

guess we call virtue

42:35

ethics although i'm sure

42:37

they had i'm not

42:39

catholic and i'm not

42:41

read italian i'm sure

42:44

they had different sources to

42:46

draw upon but um

42:48

my point being the

42:50

christian democrats they um

42:52

they uh their their

42:54

their heritage probably had

42:56

more to do uh

42:58

with um you know the

43:00

kind of political culture

43:03

one had in austria any

43:05

interwar years than it

43:07

did you know with

43:09

with somebody like uh

43:12

Like um, you know

43:14

like uh, what

43:16

like like an hour.

43:18

Okay, for example

43:20

much as like I

43:22

said there there

43:24

was some basic similarities

43:26

and um And

43:28

you're out he had

43:30

an interesting Perspective

43:32

as any he's viewed

43:34

these days as

43:36

probably The most powerful

43:38

and prominent Like

43:40

political like executive political

43:42

figure of the

43:44

Italian first Republic, you

43:46

know, said, you

43:48

know since 1945 basically

43:50

Okay And I'm

43:52

going so deep into

43:55

his biography because

43:57

it's essential to understanding

43:59

gladio. Okay, and

44:01

you'll see why or

44:03

like what I

44:05

mean in a minute.

44:07

Um He begins

44:09

a protege of a

44:11

man named El

44:13

Cid de Gasperi. Gasperi

44:19

became a

44:22

member of the

44:24

parliament of

44:26

Trentino, which

44:29

was a part

44:31

of the Austrian Reichstatt.

44:34

It was one of

44:36

these Italian territories that

44:38

was semi -autonomous,

44:41

but was under the sovereignty

44:43

of the Habsburg Empire. Okay.

44:47

I guess Sparey began

44:50

the First World

44:52

War as politically neutral.

44:56

He sympathized very, very strongly

44:58

with Pope Benedict and said,

45:00

basically, like, you know, if

45:02

you're a good Catholic and,

45:04

you know, like a good

45:06

Italian. you know you're

45:08

you're gonna abide you know

45:10

pope benedicts uh um

45:12

uh ultimately i was like

45:15

what were all ultimately

45:17

unsuccessful you know like but

45:19

um very well intentioned

45:21

and very sincere efforts towards

45:23

peace um carla first

45:25

of austria um was another

45:27

figure very much kind

45:29

of like indexed with this

45:31

perspective who uh who

45:33

um You

45:36

know who uh,

45:38

Uggasbury saw, you know,

45:40

I die with

45:42

Um, but Gaspieri someone

45:44

on became somewhat

45:46

radicalized. Okay Um In

45:48

1919 he was

45:50

one of the founders

45:52

of what became

45:54

the Italian people's party

45:56

along with Luigi

45:58

Sturzo He served as

46:00

a deputy in

46:02

the Italian parliament For

46:04

a few years

46:07

from 21 to 24,

46:09

which is obviously

46:11

you know the fascist

46:13

dissentancy was 1922

46:15

He was enthusiastic about

46:17

support of his

46:19

party the PPI and

46:21

the first government

46:23

around the first cabinet

46:25

on Mussolini because

46:27

the way he viewed

46:29

it it was

46:31

that You

46:33

know, this is this this is

46:35

what we need this standing as

46:37

a Bolshevism because Bolshevism is going

46:39

to destroy the Catholic Church and

46:41

they're already You know, it's like

46:44

they're doing to the Orthodox Church

46:46

and he wasn't wrong, you know,

46:48

and Mussolini's um Mussolini's relationship to

46:50

Catholicism was complicated. It was kind

46:52

of like Charles Maras. Okay, and

46:54

it's hard for like first of

46:56

all, I don't believe Mussolini was

46:58

an atheist even though he wasn't

47:00

You know God fearing in the

47:02

sense we're talking about but it's

47:04

when as the ruins put themselves

47:06

in, you know, kind of a

47:09

20th century modernist perspective, especially when

47:11

shaped by the great war and,

47:13

you know, the kind of certain

47:15

dehumanizing paradigms like they're in,

47:18

all of which seem to mirror

47:20

each other, and

47:22

some sort of like

47:24

grand constellation tailored

47:26

to Rob man's ability

47:29

to live both

47:31

day historically and as

47:33

a discreet Personality

47:35

on the Sun's like

47:38

Marxist have one

47:40

or something it's um,

47:42

you know Very

47:44

much the core of

47:46

the European right

47:49

like the true right

47:51

like thought in

47:53

these terms But as

47:59

As muslims grip

48:01

kind of came

48:03

Absolute and unlike

48:05

Hitler who you

48:07

know was a

48:09

Huge or a

48:11

tremendous aspect of

48:13

his ascendancy Oh

48:16

the you know

48:18

strategic use of

48:20

plebiscites in muslimi

48:22

was much more There's

48:26

only a cult

48:28

of personality on Mussolini

48:30

and there There

48:32

definitely wasn't a you

48:34

know From the

48:36

from from the center

48:38

right to the

48:40

the truly fascist, you

48:42

know, I've Mussolini

48:44

had had a very

48:46

strong mandate for

48:48

a 20th century executive

48:50

but He

48:53

was prone

48:56

to almost like

48:58

quasi -Leninist, you

49:01

know, sort

49:03

of utterances That

49:05

then that

49:08

henceforth has became

49:10

the law,

49:13

you know He

49:15

mostly mostly

49:18

fundamentally Fundamentally altered

49:20

the structural

49:22

balance of

49:24

power between the

49:26

executive and

49:29

the electoral system

49:31

itself, as

49:33

well as the

49:35

parliament, which

49:37

is largely becoming

49:39

somewhat gilded

49:41

anyway, by the

49:43

acerbola, which basically

49:45

guaranteed Like the

49:47

national fascist party, you know,

49:50

like a certain percentage of cabinet

49:52

seats. Okay. So,

49:54

um, it essentially became a

49:56

one party state. Without,

49:58

um, You

50:02

know, something like the enabling act

50:04

to finesse it. And for the

50:06

record too, and this is

50:08

a subject for a different series

50:10

or episode. But,

50:12

um, you know,

50:14

Hitler didn't, uh, Hitler

50:16

didn't take the

50:18

oath of office as

50:21

consular, you know,

50:23

and then Or even later after

50:25

you after the enabling act, you

50:27

know when he became a consular

50:29

and and fear of the German

50:31

Reich He didn't he didn't suddenly

50:33

declare that like, you know now

50:35

like, you know, or in the

50:37

state or all, you know, or

50:39

all apparatus of the party, you

50:41

know And

50:45

the internal police apparatus was

50:47

very directly Coopted by national

50:49

socialists and became an organ

50:51

of the party which is

50:53

interesting of itself But other

50:55

than that That's one of

50:57

the reasons there was this

50:59

kind of agonistic pluralism in

51:01

the Third Reich Where in

51:04

some ways people didn't couldn't

51:06

quite grasp like where you

51:08

know sort of like the

51:10

state bureaucracy stops and the

51:12

party bureaucracy began or

51:14

you had, you had, um, or in

51:16

the government that literally had like

51:18

an identical mandate, you know, but one

51:20

was, you know, like a branch

51:22

of the SD, which was accountable to

51:24

the SS, like another

51:26

was, you know, um, like,

51:29

uh, an internal security

51:31

department that was, um, you

51:34

know, tied to the abbear, you know, which

51:36

had actually no like accountability to the same

51:38

chain of command. But,

51:40

um, the

51:44

What ultimately happened

51:46

was these kinds

51:48

of these kinds

51:50

of like reform

51:52

is by the

51:54

But bully pulpit

51:56

flexing like figuratively

51:58

and literally This

52:00

led to this

52:02

led a great

52:04

deal of turmoil

52:07

in the early

52:09

years of The

52:11

national fascist party and

52:14

its single -party rule

52:16

does a great deal

52:18

of violence Against other

52:20

parties which refused to

52:23

accept You know the

52:25

acerbola and it's gonna

52:27

refuse to accept You

52:29

know it'll do chase

52:32

a sort of self

52:34

appointed mandate This caused

52:36

the PPI to the

52:38

fracture Digus

52:43

very became He

52:45

remained on as

52:47

a secretary of

52:50

Of the anti

52:52

-fascist faction that

52:54

remained Until November

52:57

20 in November

52:59

nor 20 just

53:01

until now until

53:04

November 1926 You

53:06

know in a true

53:08

climate of kind of over

53:10

violence and intimidation became

53:12

the norm You know the

53:14

the PPI was it

53:17

it was just formally dissolved

53:19

You know, um, Gaspari

53:21

himself was arrested in March

53:23

of 27 He did

53:25

four years in prison the

53:27

Vatican negotiated his release,

53:30

you know, which again the

53:34

indexing and the

53:36

relationship between the

53:38

Vatican and the

53:40

Christian Democrats and

53:42

their precursors That's

53:44

really important, you

53:47

know to understanding

53:49

the politics the

53:51

inner warrior is

53:53

nearly cold war

53:55

But you know

53:57

he was he

53:59

was his

54:01

release and 1928

54:03

he was basically unpersoned.

54:05

You know, he had definitely

54:07

finding employment. He was

54:09

in serious financial difficulties His

54:11

uh Some of his

54:14

church contacts, you know, secured

54:16

him a job As

54:18

a cataloger in the Vatican

54:20

library, which probably saved

54:22

his life and that's where

54:24

he spent the next

54:26

that in the next 14

54:28

years until until the

54:30

collapse of the of

54:33

the Kingdom of Italy,

54:35

I mean the Rump

54:37

State in 43, I

54:39

mean the Rump State

54:41

of the Salah Republic

54:43

endured but you know,

54:46

it's the big contribution

54:48

of Gespery one of

54:50

the major international One

54:52

of the major international

54:54

newspapers which in those

54:56

days a political newspaper

54:58

a new political newspaper

55:00

having international Circulation

55:03

was a big

55:05

deal. He wrote a

55:07

column Where this

55:09

is in 9 this

55:11

was in 1934.

55:13

I mean when he

55:15

had absolutely no

55:17

love for the national

55:19

fascist party, but

55:21

he He celebrated the

55:23

defeat of the

55:25

social democrats and In

55:28

Austria we claimed

55:30

were you know on

55:32

a on a mission

55:34

of de -Christianizing Austria and

55:36

You know that they were

55:38

covert allies of the

55:40

Bolsheviks and he he see

55:42

declared knowing certain terms

55:44

that the German Church That

55:46

we you know in

55:48

Italy we should follow example

55:50

of the German Catholic

55:53

Church You know and we

55:55

should prefer knowing certain

55:57

terms you know national socialism

55:59

to Bolshevism you know

56:01

like both Bolshevism is our

56:03

is the mortal enemy

56:05

of Christ and of the

56:07

Catholic Church so this

56:09

is uh you know these

56:11

these alliances are more

56:13

complicated than people will allow

56:15

you know it's um

56:18

during uh during World War

56:20

II um this is

56:22

when the spirit is formally

56:24

established the the christian

56:26

democrat I

56:31

I think it was

56:33

clear to me saw the

56:35

writing on the wall

56:38

That um, you know, the

56:40

exes are gonna lose

56:42

the war He published and

56:44

deliberately limited circulation to

56:47

What appears to be you

56:49

know, like a handful

56:51

of countries we trusted? In

56:55

the SC amount of do a

56:57

program for the new Christian Democrat Party

57:00

Um, and uh, it

57:02

was titled quite literally,

57:04

you know ideas for

57:06

Reconstruction Okay, um Gaspari

57:08

From that point on

57:10

you know, he was

57:12

like the undisputed he

57:15

was the undisputed kind

57:17

of hot show not

57:19

as the Christian Democrats

57:21

which were a new

57:23

Sort of consolation of

57:25

of um, the political

57:27

values contained in one you

57:30

know, pretty pretty

57:32

autocratic and well managed

57:34

party, but they

57:36

ended up dominating parliament

57:38

for decades, you

57:40

know, and they were basically right wing.

57:42

I mean, I don't mean that

57:44

in 21st century terms. I mean, they

57:47

were very much like a nationalist

57:49

Catholic, you know, very,

57:51

you know, very pro very,

57:53

very patriotic. You know,

57:55

uh, like like racialism didn't

57:57

feature into their equation

57:59

to the same degree that

58:02

it did and does

58:04

some continental tendencies, but this

58:06

wasn't genuine like right

58:08

wing tendency Okay, um and

58:10

uh When southern Italy

58:12

was conquered by the allies

58:15

the spary became basically

58:17

like the main representatives of

58:19

the christian democrats and what

58:22

became known as the

58:24

National Liberation Community or

58:26

the National Liberation Committee

58:29

like dissident elements that

58:31

you know, we're all

58:33

kind of jockeying from

58:35

you know, patronage by

58:37

the allies and you

58:39

know, who would give

58:41

them the mandate and

58:43

you know, security elements

58:45

in order to in

58:47

order to insinuate themselves

58:49

as You

58:51

know the the

58:54

prominent primitive

58:56

like cadre or

58:58

party like

59:00

ruling the country

59:02

um It's

59:04

uh Gaspere first

59:06

uh became

59:08

a minister without

59:11

portfolio and

59:13

a government led

59:15

by Ivan

59:17

Benomi um Later

59:19

um In

59:22

for each of your parries

59:24

cabinet you became the minister of

59:26

foreign affairs, and that's kind

59:29

of when That's got all these

59:31

ideas you've been cultivating like

59:33

got wide Sort of circulation, you

59:35

know, and in my opinion

59:37

he was always a more kind

59:39

of thoughtful individual than an

59:41

hour. I think of an hour

59:44

is kind of like a

59:46

great proverbial horse trader and Like

59:49

literally like an incredibly like

59:51

skilled politician, but I There

59:53

was there was no real

59:55

vision. They're like good or

59:57

bad. I mean there's I

59:59

Hunt Rudolph something to say

1:00:01

about Ed now, but I'm

1:00:03

I'm not gonna repeat it

1:00:05

less like YouTube fire us

1:00:07

or something but I Have

1:00:10

to be fair. Um, I

1:00:12

compared some possibilities like I

1:00:14

had never looks Pretty

1:00:16

good and Gaspari I think

1:00:18

was possibly heroic considering

1:00:20

a lot of a lot

1:00:22

of You know the

1:00:25

challenges he was facing Quite

1:00:27

literally not just you

1:00:29

know his his soul and

1:00:31

sanity, but his life

1:00:33

and limb Finally,

1:00:37

uh, disparity from 45 to

1:00:40

53 use prime use prime

1:00:42

minister a successive Christian Democrat

1:00:44

like governments Now if you

1:00:46

know anything about Italian politics,

1:00:48

that's that's like absurd longevity.

1:00:50

Okay, that's like That's that's

1:00:52

basically a British prime minister

1:00:55

like ruling for like, you

1:00:57

know, like 18 years, okay?

1:01:00

Like I'm not making for the

1:01:02

Italian. This is like a

1:01:04

fact but uh this uh You

1:01:07

know this Italy was

1:01:09

declared a republic You know

1:01:11

immediately they signed a

1:01:13

peace treaty Like a phone

1:01:15

picture with the other

1:01:17

47 they they were they

1:01:19

were one of your

1:01:22

original NATO members in 49

1:01:24

You know and again

1:01:26

Gaspari and the Christian Democrat

1:01:28

delegation they actively courted

1:01:30

the United States, you know

1:01:32

and again, I don't

1:01:34

I don't buy into the

1:01:36

mythology of like oh

1:01:38

the Marshall plan just like

1:01:40

created magic money in

1:01:42

like made made Europe like

1:01:44

rich again That's that's

1:01:47

complete nonsense, but there were

1:01:49

infrastructural needs and there

1:01:51

was a need for capital

1:01:53

in key sectors in

1:01:55

order for Europe to be

1:01:57

able to Like like

1:01:59

realize its great power potential

1:02:01

and the Marshall plan

1:02:03

When it's When

1:02:06

it when its capital

1:02:08

inflows were truly targeted

1:02:10

In a way that

1:02:12

indexed with necessary developmental

1:02:14

schemes. It was highly

1:02:17

effective and um He

1:02:19

uh, he lobbied very

1:02:21

very hard for uh

1:02:23

for participation in the

1:02:25

Marshall plan The Marshall

1:02:27

plan again it really

1:02:30

did in the case

1:02:32

of Italy I

1:02:36

I don't like the term

1:02:38

you know like economic miracle like

1:02:40

the Spanish miracle or the

1:02:42

South Korean miracle You know because

1:02:44

it's It's just another ever

1:02:46

to kind of like cost conscious

1:02:48

or not to like it

1:02:50

make economic stuff like obscure thing

1:02:52

But I act like it's

1:02:54

literally some kind of magic and

1:02:56

it doesn't owe to you

1:02:58

know the the human ability to

1:03:00

You know to literally like

1:03:02

build the equity you

1:03:04

know from from

1:03:06

the raw stuff of

1:03:08

of capital again

1:03:11

quite literally and You

1:03:13

know the the

1:03:15

Marshall plan itself did

1:03:17

not revive Europe,

1:03:19

but at the same

1:03:22

time again The

1:03:24

European coal and steel

1:03:26

community was essential

1:03:28

and You know Like

1:03:34

like pushing

1:03:36

to make this

1:03:38

you know

1:03:40

a policy priority

1:03:42

and you

1:03:44

know making it

1:03:47

an unconditional

1:03:49

Imperative you know

1:03:51

for his

1:03:53

government was essential

1:03:55

When When

1:03:57

he did take

1:04:02

When he did this become

1:04:04

Prime Minister that first time

1:04:06

Succeeding through Joe Perry He

1:04:08

inherited a coalition that included

1:04:11

both the Italian Communist Party

1:04:13

and Italian Socialist Party Delegates

1:04:15

along with Along with other

1:04:17

like smaller parties that were

1:04:19

nominally independent or you know

1:04:21

had names, you know like

1:04:23

the you know like a

1:04:26

liberal Republican party or the

1:04:28

action party but you know,

1:04:30

some of which had very

1:04:32

much, you know, where we're

1:04:34

coming is to Jason, if

1:04:36

not, you know, out, you

1:04:38

know, proxies, um, to,

1:04:41

um, to

1:04:46

Gaspieri's credit, um, his

1:04:49

deputy prime minister, Palmyro

1:04:52

Togliotti,

1:04:55

um, did

1:04:58

cooperate in, um, Gaspere's

1:05:01

attempts to soften

1:05:03

the terms of impending

1:05:05

LIP's treaty With

1:05:07

Italy, you know again,

1:05:09

you know seeing

1:05:12

very much what was

1:05:14

being done to

1:05:16

Germany and this was

1:05:18

This this is

1:05:20

right, you know him

1:05:22

Lobbying so heavily

1:05:24

and so very publicly

1:05:26

for relief Through

1:05:28

any cooperation there

1:05:31

in the European recovery

1:05:33

program, you know,

1:05:35

which was the tangling

1:05:37

from Marshall plan

1:05:39

You know, this this

1:05:41

this was opposed

1:05:43

vociferously by the communists,

1:05:45

but um This

1:05:47

very did manage to

1:05:49

hold this, you

1:05:51

know, initial Prime Minister

1:05:54

ship together despite

1:05:56

all odds especially

1:05:58

when you consider You

1:06:00

know the The

1:06:02

fact that he was

1:06:04

dealing with a

1:06:06

can that has very

1:06:08

much stopped but

1:06:10

that was very much

1:06:12

stocked by ops

1:06:14

The It was under

1:06:16

Gaspari's watch that

1:06:18

Italy would you know

1:06:20

the the one

1:06:22

significant significant referendum eyes

1:06:24

watch Post

1:06:29

the question as to

1:06:31

whether Italy was to remain

1:06:33

a monarch here become

1:06:35

a republic You know when

1:06:37

I get that I

1:06:39

I believe very much was

1:06:42

uh Was uh, the

1:06:44

spirit is like Machiavellian streak,

1:06:46

you know, like I

1:06:48

said like he Like Franco's

1:06:50

regime post -war although the

1:06:52

spirit obviously was a

1:06:54

far more admirable figure One

1:06:59

of the ways

1:07:01

that they were able

1:07:03

to, you know,

1:07:05

kind of bring the

1:07:07

Vatican into the

1:07:09

fold and not just

1:07:11

administrative capacities and

1:07:13

in terms of insinuating

1:07:15

a kind of

1:07:17

moral legitimacy, which, you

1:07:19

know, carried a lot of cash shades still

1:07:21

in those days. But

1:07:25

also It's

1:07:27

allowed It allowed for

1:07:29

a certain freedom of movement

1:07:31

in global politic vis -a

1:07:34

-vis what you know other

1:07:36

countries would respond to

1:07:38

That they wouldn't have you

1:07:40

know if Italy was

1:07:42

merely you know a client

1:07:44

regime of the United

1:07:47

States with all the trappings

1:07:49

they're in including you

1:07:51

know the stripping away of

1:07:53

the Roman Church from you

1:07:56

know, not just

1:07:58

authority in government

1:08:01

and administration, but

1:08:03

also in national

1:08:05

life. was

1:08:10

chief of the

1:08:12

Italian delegation at the

1:08:15

World War II

1:08:17

peace conference in Paris.

1:08:21

You know he remained

1:08:23

a harshly critical

1:08:25

of the sanctions That

1:08:28

remained on a

1:08:30

Imposed on Italy only

1:08:32

to various Intrigues

1:08:34

and some of which

1:08:36

were just kind

1:08:39

of born of vengeance

1:08:41

driven sensibilities especially

1:08:43

considering that you know

1:08:46

Italian leadership was not going

1:08:48

to be placed on trial

1:08:50

or, you know, or certain

1:08:52

of these kinds of show

1:08:54

trial homicides under auspices of,

1:08:56

you know, justice. But

1:08:59

he did gain

1:09:01

very strong concessions

1:09:03

from the allies

1:09:05

that guaranteed Italian

1:09:08

sovereignty, particularly

1:09:10

as

1:09:12

a

1:09:15

regarded the bulk and

1:09:18

some of the eastern

1:09:20

border territory was lost

1:09:22

Yugoslavia, but The free

1:09:25

territory of Trees was

1:09:27

invited between the two

1:09:29

state two stays and

1:09:31

obviously, you know NATO

1:09:34

Meaning at that point

1:09:36

just America like, you

1:09:38

know signed on as

1:09:40

the guarantor of of

1:09:43

these borders now back

1:09:45

to And Roddy again,

1:09:47

this is important to

1:09:50

understand and I will

1:09:52

not boring read it

1:09:54

does but um, We

1:09:56

threw up the hell

1:09:59

I am Give my

1:10:01

senior moments Back to

1:10:03

and Roddy, um and

1:10:06

Roddy had achieved a

1:10:08

cabinet rank At a

1:10:10

very young age And

1:10:14

by the time

1:10:17

By by the end

1:10:19

of his tenure

1:10:21

he'd He'd occupied virtual

1:10:23

every major office

1:10:25

of the post -war

1:10:27

Italian state And he

1:10:29

again was seen

1:10:31

as quite literally like

1:10:34

the unofficial liaison

1:10:36

with the Vatican, you

1:10:38

know in foreign

1:10:40

policy terms Andrade,

1:10:42

you know very much

1:10:44

the protege is very you

1:10:46

know He guided the

1:10:48

European unions like Italy within

1:10:51

kind of the what

1:10:53

the EC being the EU

1:10:55

Andrade guided Italy's um

1:10:57

integration into it and Fascinatingly

1:10:59

to me if you

1:11:01

know what my kind of

1:11:03

research interests are and

1:11:06

if you kind of understand

1:11:08

the nuances of what

1:11:10

Gladio was to the men

1:11:12

who staffed it, which

1:11:14

was something very different than

1:11:16

the men who conceived

1:11:19

of it. They wanted to

1:11:21

utilize it for strategic

1:11:23

purposes. You know,

1:11:25

that were fairly transparent. Andradi

1:11:29

pursued close relations

1:11:32

with the Arab world.

1:11:36

You know, when he He

1:11:40

had a strong strong following

1:11:42

not just in Italy, but

1:11:44

uh Especially through Catholic Europe,

1:11:46

but also like you know

1:11:48

throughout his utility throughout the

1:11:50

totality of what? Was

1:11:53

becoming a you

1:11:55

know the burgeoning

1:11:57

EC EU He'd

1:11:59

substantially mediated corruption

1:12:01

He'd always seen

1:12:04

the transformation of

1:12:06

the country from

1:12:09

You know a basically rural country

1:12:11

and literally the world's fifth

1:12:13

largest economy. That's totally insane That's

1:12:15

only comparable. I think like

1:12:18

South Korea went from having an

1:12:20

economic profile comparable to Burkina

1:12:22

Faso like being like a number

1:12:24

nine world economy like granted

1:12:26

There was like massive subsidies and

1:12:28

for structural aid, you know,

1:12:31

that was kind of like a

1:12:33

reward for you know contributing So

1:12:36

very much in not

1:12:38

not just in um

1:12:40

Not not just in

1:12:42

in treasure, but in

1:12:44

blood, you know to

1:12:46

the Vietnam War, but

1:12:48

um, it's truly remarkable

1:12:50

To consider especially when

1:12:52

it it's something that

1:12:54

just seems like impossible

1:12:56

today to me man,

1:12:58

you know like um

1:13:00

under current historical conditions,

1:13:03

but um the

1:13:05

His uh He was

1:13:07

a huge uh

1:13:09

And Roddy's um ops

1:13:11

claim that he

1:13:13

was a neoliberal that's

1:13:15

kind of like

1:13:17

the catch That's kind

1:13:19

of like the

1:13:21

the favored sort of

1:13:23

slander, you know

1:13:25

of um Of these

1:13:27

kinds of post -war

1:13:29

European politicians, you

1:13:32

know who rejected

1:13:34

kind of like the Keynesian

1:13:36

model and you know began

1:13:38

to realize that this over

1:13:40

regulation and state planning was

1:13:42

was quite literally crushing what

1:13:44

were made of national industry

1:13:46

but it also it was

1:13:48

you know it it was

1:13:50

um it was actually like

1:13:52

you know enslaving Europe to

1:13:54

the dollar like even more

1:13:56

than a You

1:13:59

know even even even more

1:14:01

than today. I mean by like

1:14:03

a wide mile. It's not

1:14:05

even close but um, I He

1:14:07

was only a supply sider,

1:14:10

but he you know, like I

1:14:12

said, I think I You

1:14:14

know, I don't think seriously especially

1:14:16

people who aren't really learning

1:14:18

economics, you know any bandy this

1:14:21

Like, oh, he was a neoliberal. And

1:14:23

like, God's not right to that, too. That

1:14:25

means that you have no, like, credibility or

1:14:27

something as a right winger. It's like, I

1:14:29

don't, I, you know, the,

1:14:31

the political is the economic. And I

1:14:33

mean, that's, that's a liberal conceit, man. That's

1:14:35

not the way you should think of

1:14:38

things anyway. Um,

1:14:40

but, uh, you

1:14:42

know, Andrade, again, is also his,

1:14:44

his two other kind of

1:14:47

big commitments were, um, you

1:14:49

know, staunchly supporting

1:14:51

and indexing with

1:14:54

the Vatican and

1:14:56

You know a

1:14:58

strong hostility towards

1:15:00

The Italian Communist

1:15:02

Italian Communist Party

1:15:04

and the Soviet

1:15:06

Union now Remember

1:15:08

how we're talking

1:15:11

about The English

1:15:13

the British rather

1:15:15

there's plenty of

1:15:17

Scots and And

1:15:20

the Alsterman

1:15:22

among the Ryan

1:15:24

said those

1:15:26

vial stards And

1:15:28

how they

1:15:30

really were the

1:15:32

pioneers of

1:15:34

asymmetrical warfare Well

1:15:37

around Around

1:15:39

the 1970s very

1:15:41

late 70s

1:15:43

Well here General

1:15:45

Sir John

1:15:47

Hackett He

1:15:49

was former commander -in -chief

1:15:51

of the British Army

1:15:53

on the Rhine, which

1:15:55

was, again, they were

1:15:58

the primary British Army

1:16:00

element on the inter -German

1:16:02

border. Okay. They

1:16:05

were kind of

1:16:07

the equivalent of a

1:16:09

12th black horse

1:16:11

that folded gap. Okay.

1:16:18

He he confirmed over

1:16:20

a series of

1:16:22

interviews and like talks

1:16:24

You know at

1:16:26

various, you know war

1:16:28

college like venues.

1:16:30

This was in November

1:16:32

16 1990 So

1:16:34

again, you know right

1:16:36

on the heels

1:16:38

of these earlier disclosures

1:16:40

about gladio Well

1:16:42

Hacket Like

1:16:46

I said, I

1:16:48

know in certain terms

1:16:51

that a contingency

1:16:53

a contingency a contingency

1:16:55

plant plan involving

1:16:57

quote stay behind and

1:16:59

resistance in depth

1:17:01

was drawn up after

1:17:03

1945 and was

1:17:05

absolutely essential Okay, um

1:17:07

A protoge of

1:17:10

his Anthony

1:17:14

for our Hockley

1:17:17

the former commander

1:17:19

-in -chief of NATO's

1:17:21

forces in northern

1:17:24

Europe which would

1:17:26

have been area

1:17:28

operation would have

1:17:30

been Norway Denmark

1:17:33

the the North

1:17:35

the Scandinavian the

1:17:37

North Sea He

1:17:43

reiterated to the

1:17:45

Guardian magazine that

1:17:48

yes what? General

1:17:50

Hackett that suggested was

1:17:52

was absolutely true now The

1:17:55

British were were big

1:17:57

on public diplomacy in a

1:17:59

way America wasn't You

1:18:01

know said I think a

1:18:03

couple years back. It's

1:18:05

before there was as many

1:18:08

options available on Twitter

1:18:10

to You know Do

1:18:12

spaces and things

1:18:14

and I don't believe

1:18:16

I've ever done

1:18:18

a pot about it,

1:18:20

but I've posted

1:18:22

many images of the

1:18:24

Soviet military power

1:18:26

Magazine that you could

1:18:28

purchase in any

1:18:30

post office and it

1:18:32

was released every

1:18:34

year from I believe

1:18:36

81 until 1990

1:18:41

It was put up by

1:18:44

the Defense Intelligence Agency It

1:18:46

was full of this incredible

1:18:48

artwork because obviously a lot

1:18:50

of these weapons platforms NATO

1:18:52

didn't have actual photographs of

1:18:55

them, but you know they

1:18:57

knew they existed but This

1:18:59

was obviously an effort at

1:19:01

you know true public diplomacy

1:19:04

like educates the public on

1:19:06

a question of of

1:19:08

policy significance or political

1:19:10

goings on you know,

1:19:12

that's you know, they wouldn't

1:19:15

they wouldn't ordinarily be

1:19:17

availed do You know

1:19:19

a body of work

1:19:21

that could sort of

1:19:23

explain such college matters and

1:19:25

in concise terms and

1:19:27

that seems really quaint

1:19:30

like in the internet

1:19:32

era, but Britain

1:19:34

was always big on this

1:19:36

America was less big on

1:19:38

this You know, but in

1:19:41

the Cold War there were

1:19:43

a few kind of Very

1:19:45

striking examples and Soviet military

1:19:47

power was one of them.

1:19:49

Well, what the British did

1:19:51

was and My dad had

1:19:53

these books on his bookshelf

1:19:55

as when I was a

1:19:58

little kid and I they

1:20:00

probably blew my fucking mind

1:20:02

But um Hey sir

1:20:04

General sir John Hackett he

1:20:07

wrote a book in

1:20:09

1978 and it was

1:20:11

marketed as a novel

1:20:13

In America, I don't

1:20:15

believe it was marketed

1:20:17

as such in the

1:20:19

UK and in the UK

1:20:21

it had a different

1:20:23

epilogue and we'll get

1:20:26

into that in a

1:20:28

minute, but It

1:20:30

was called the Third

1:20:33

World War August 1985 It

1:20:35

was a fictionalized account

1:20:37

that reads kind of like

1:20:39

threads and a threads,

1:20:41

you know, was a movie

1:20:43

but uh, you know

1:20:45

The it doesn't have a

1:20:47

good traditional like fiction

1:20:49

narrative structure, you know, like

1:20:52

it'll jump to some,

1:20:54

you know, like Warsaw packed

1:20:56

like early warning post,

1:20:58

you know And

1:21:01

uh, East Germany, you

1:21:03

know, and then it'll like

1:21:05

jump to you know,

1:21:07

some uh, Soviet missile base

1:21:09

in Kazakhstan and it'll

1:21:11

like jump to like, you

1:21:13

know, the president's like

1:21:15

situation room But uh, what

1:21:17

it basically is is

1:21:19

it's it describes a scenario

1:21:21

Okay, um That being

1:21:23

that in August 1985 um

1:21:26

The Soviet Union Warsaw

1:21:29

Pact assault West Germany

1:21:31

The there's a follow -up

1:21:33

in 1982 called the

1:21:35

Third World War the

1:21:37

untold story Which elaborated

1:21:39

on the original with

1:21:42

some details of this

1:21:44

counterfactual universe, but also

1:21:46

again like it it

1:21:48

added a kind of

1:21:50

what I think it

1:21:52

was an alibi for

1:21:55

Western for American audiences.

1:21:57

It's fascinating but

1:21:59

For context Some of

1:22:01

the hack it

1:22:03

believed in You know,

1:22:06

this was a

1:22:08

The final truly critical

1:22:10

phase the Cold

1:22:12

War, you know, like

1:22:14

78 79 like

1:22:16

85 those were able

1:22:18

archer era, you

1:22:20

know There was

1:22:22

a foreign conclusion to

1:22:24

a lot of these a

1:22:26

Lot of these general

1:22:28

officers that there was going

1:22:31

to be a war

1:22:33

in Europe. Okay And Basically

1:22:35

their job was not

1:22:37

just to protect, you know

1:22:39

The the people United

1:22:41

Kingdom or the people United

1:22:43

States or you know,

1:22:45

the people of Italy, you

1:22:47

know, depending on the

1:22:49

executive we're talking about Um,

1:22:52

it's the force of

1:22:55

their abilities and also to

1:22:57

You know to the

1:22:59

door thing they can to

1:23:01

fight and win a

1:23:03

nuclear war. Um For our

1:23:06

hockey who whose heck

1:23:08

it's some protege I mentioned

1:23:10

a minute ago During

1:23:12

this time he started advocating

1:23:14

strongly for the creation

1:23:17

of a new home guard

1:23:20

In anticipation of a potential

1:23:22

Soviet assault, you know

1:23:24

the The home guard of

1:23:26

World War two was

1:23:28

like lampoon and stuff like

1:23:31

dad's army. I don't

1:23:33

have ever seen that but

1:23:35

um Farah Houghley and

1:23:37

Haggar were serious about having

1:23:39

able -bodied young men, you

1:23:41

know, like basically Take

1:23:43

on the role of Of

1:23:47

a gladio elements

1:23:49

in event of Warsaw

1:23:51

Pact assault of

1:23:53

the island Okay So

1:23:55

in the books

1:23:57

or in the book

1:23:59

we'll start with

1:24:01

Kind of I think

1:24:03

it's the primary

1:24:05

source which is the

1:24:08

first Edition In

1:24:16

the Third World

1:24:18

War, the untold

1:24:20

story, they

1:24:22

describe basically

1:24:25

the political situation

1:24:27

as it

1:24:29

stood then in

1:24:32

terms of

1:24:34

alliances, allegiances, then

1:24:37

active battle spaces. Um,

1:24:39

there was some speculation about

1:24:41

space -based weapons platforms, but

1:24:44

otherwise it was all based

1:24:46

on like forces and being

1:24:48

You know at then extent

1:24:50

force levels and weapons systems

1:24:52

that actually existed and Could

1:24:54

expect it to be perform

1:24:56

could expect it to perform

1:24:58

an action as described in

1:25:00

the narrative But uh the

1:25:02

novel starts then I need

1:25:04

for presidential election Walter

1:25:09

Mondale who's the Democratic

1:25:11

nominee loses the former

1:25:13

governor Thompson of South

1:25:16

Carolina who's obviously supposed

1:25:18

to be Ronald Reagan

1:25:20

Okay Most of

1:25:22

what's going on as

1:25:24

you know in the

1:25:27

world situation as it's

1:25:29

perceived and witnessed by

1:25:31

like Reagan and his

1:25:34

cabinet is detailed by

1:25:36

you know president Thompson's advisors,

1:25:39

you know who

1:25:41

are briefing him on

1:25:43

the international situation

1:25:45

like it from the

1:25:47

time he takes

1:25:49

office You know until

1:25:51

and then beyond

1:25:53

the answer about stillities,

1:25:55

you know, so

1:25:57

the answer the book

1:25:59

ages Becoming a

1:26:01

real powerhouse They've increasingly

1:26:06

with the exception of

1:26:08

North Korea and Vietnam

1:26:11

Liberize their economies and

1:26:13

Sort of you know

1:26:15

ease back from any

1:26:17

kind of political Interdependence

1:26:19

with the Soviet Union

1:26:22

from a strategic and

1:26:24

military perspective China has

1:26:26

a has like a

1:26:28

dang type figure At

1:26:30

the helm, it was

1:26:33

like not like a

1:26:35

reformer kind of in

1:26:37

like the western, you

1:26:39

know, like faux democracy

1:26:41

sense But he's basically

1:26:44

become a hostile the

1:26:46

communism and all but

1:26:48

name He's trying to

1:26:50

flip North Korea and

1:26:52

Vietnam against Russia but

1:26:55

basically buying them off,

1:26:57

you know and pursue

1:26:59

a Kind of gradual,

1:27:01

um, you know and circle them

1:27:03

into the Soviet Far East The

1:27:07

India, which is

1:27:10

the Soviet Union's only

1:27:12

real strong ally

1:27:14

in the region, it

1:27:18

continues to

1:27:20

deteriorate. They're

1:27:22

the exception to

1:27:24

Asia's prosperous condition.

1:27:28

It's literally deteriorating.

1:27:33

the Arab Cold

1:27:35

War is

1:27:38

intensifying as a

1:27:40

a Nazarist

1:27:42

government in Egypt

1:27:44

that's basically,

1:27:46

you know, like

1:27:48

a left -wing

1:27:50

nationalist, like

1:27:52

somewhat communist adjacent

1:27:54

dictatorship is

1:27:57

cringing towards war

1:27:59

with Saudi

1:28:01

Arabia. South

1:28:04

Africa has become a

1:28:06

Federation like a racially

1:28:08

divided Federation under a

1:28:10

ban to ban to

1:28:12

stand system, which is

1:28:15

basically stable but lives

1:28:17

under constant threat by

1:28:19

Nigeria Which is now

1:28:21

like fully committed The

1:28:23

South African border war

1:28:25

as are like actual

1:28:27

Soviet troops Ethiopia has

1:28:29

fallen apart Including

1:28:33

Eritrea The Soviets try

1:28:35

to show up the situation

1:28:37

and install their own

1:28:39

proxy government, but this fails

1:28:42

And then the book

1:28:44

shows like a world map

1:28:46

like what the implications

1:28:48

of all these things are

1:28:50

like in a hypothetical

1:28:53

like you know Reagan like

1:28:55

a situation room Like

1:28:57

on every front like

1:28:59

the Soviets or are

1:29:01

losing the Cold War,

1:29:03

you know It Meanwhile

1:29:05

the poet bro, which

1:29:07

presumably The trifecta of

1:29:09

because it's probably written

1:29:11

in 78 a trifecta

1:29:13

of a drop -off

1:29:15

Rameco and Ustinov is

1:29:18

kind of like the

1:29:20

real or the triumvirate

1:29:22

rather they're like They're

1:29:24

the real executive of

1:29:26

the USSR, you know,

1:29:28

with the with the increasingly kind

1:29:30

of disabled Brezhnev as the figurehead.

1:29:33

And drop of or his

1:29:35

like counterpart in the

1:29:37

story, he basically drops the

1:29:39

same speech that he

1:29:41

did in 80 or 81,

1:29:43

where he talked about

1:29:45

how, you know, the Soviet

1:29:47

Union was like could

1:29:50

not compete, you know, like

1:29:52

any information revolution and The

1:29:55

amount of computing power in

1:29:57

the country was pathetic compared

1:29:59

to any developed state, and

1:30:01

if this wasn't altered within

1:30:03

a decade and remedied, like

1:30:05

the Soyes would lose the

1:30:07

Cold War. Basically, identical

1:30:09

speech is given by the

1:30:12

stand -in for Andropov or, again,

1:30:14

the trombone I just mentioned. The

1:30:21

poet bro accepts these

1:30:23

conclusions proffered by this

1:30:25

Composite executive character character

1:30:27

character is going to

1:30:29

consensus that you know

1:30:31

The state the total

1:30:33

state nation of the

1:30:35

economy Means that the

1:30:37

Soviet armed forces will

1:30:39

not be able to

1:30:41

retain technological parity for

1:30:43

the with the West

1:30:45

for beyond a decade

1:30:50

and that the only

1:30:52

way like the Soviet

1:30:54

Union can bring the

1:30:56

Cold War to a

1:30:58

victorious conclusion is to assault

1:31:00

Western Europe, annihilate

1:31:02

NATO, kind

1:31:04

of forever banish American

1:31:06

forces from the

1:31:09

continent, and

1:31:11

then sue for peace

1:31:13

from a position of

1:31:15

strength. If

1:31:18

not benevolence The poet

1:31:21

bro understands it all

1:31:23

those resistance from NATO

1:31:25

is guaranteed That before

1:31:27

the United States amount

1:31:29

of counter offensive The

1:31:32

threat of The threat

1:31:34

especially of tactical nuclear

1:31:36

weapons and the use

1:31:38

of chemical weapons and

1:31:40

the potential in the

1:31:43

case of the former

1:31:45

of horizontal escalation will

1:31:49

knock some NATO

1:31:51

states out of the

1:31:53

war further compromising

1:31:55

you know their ability

1:31:57

to reconstitute amidst

1:32:00

you know the massive

1:32:02

kind of gap

1:32:04

in numerical forces and

1:32:06

being so the

1:32:08

Soviet Diplomatic Corps also

1:32:10

believes that they

1:32:12

can cause a schism

1:32:15

in the western defense cordon by

1:32:17

convincing France to stay out

1:32:19

of the conflict. You know, France

1:32:21

is not a NATO member.

1:32:23

They remain adjacent, but during this

1:32:26

period, relations between NATO and

1:32:28

France were particularly frosty. The

1:32:31

poet brode decides that there's three

1:32:33

options before them. Varian

1:32:35

A will constitute a

1:32:37

massive preemptive nuclear

1:32:39

strike against Europe. Alongside

1:32:42

the special neds

1:32:44

paratrooper elements deployed in

1:32:46

areas not under

1:32:48

direct nuclear assault Followed

1:32:50

by a seven -day

1:32:52

land invasion to

1:32:54

the Linns Frankfurt Linns

1:32:57

Frankfurt Dunkirk line

1:32:59

So another event is

1:33:01

so bad in

1:33:03

any event assault the

1:33:05

proverbial center with

1:33:07

nuclear weapons like without

1:33:10

regard for you

1:33:12

know, counter value with

1:33:14

tradition, like assault

1:33:16

the periphery with special

1:33:18

operations elements, and

1:33:20

then smashed through

1:33:23

the now irradiated,

1:33:25

you know, former

1:33:27

main line of

1:33:29

resistance, you know,

1:33:31

with Warsaw Pact armor, you

1:33:34

know, and then

1:33:36

upon reaching, again, the

1:33:38

Linz Frankfurt Dunkirk

1:33:40

line basically within You

1:33:43

know a stone's

1:33:45

throw of Of the

1:33:47

ocean you know

1:33:49

to demand a demand

1:33:52

NATO come to

1:33:54

peace terms Very in

1:33:56

B Is Identity

1:33:58

above but with full

1:34:00

deployment of chemical

1:34:02

weapons and high explosive

1:34:04

conventional ordinance, but

1:34:07

a complete ban on

1:34:09

the use of nuclear

1:34:12

weapons. Variant

1:34:15

C would

1:34:17

be a

1:34:19

conventional invasion

1:34:21

with tactical

1:34:23

nuclear strikes

1:34:25

being employed

1:34:27

if NATO

1:34:30

was able

1:34:32

to hold

1:34:34

before Warsaw

1:34:36

Pact reaches

1:34:38

the Rhine.

1:34:41

Within seven days The

1:34:43

polar vero ultimately

1:34:45

decides on variant C

1:34:48

to avoid horizontal

1:34:50

escalation and You know

1:34:52

the development of

1:34:55

what almost certainly would

1:34:57

You know snowball

1:34:59

into a general nuclear