0:00

I'm really saddened by the row. I

0:02

like both men, I respect both men,

0:04

I admire both men in many ways.

0:06

Nigel has so much more experience. One

0:09

thing he is recognized for more than

0:11

anything else is a sense of timing. He's

0:13

always been very good at timing. Yes,

0:15

I agree, but no, not now. And

0:18

I think Rupert is a little bit

0:20

more impatient than that. He doesn't have

0:22

that same experience in polities. Great experience

0:24

in business. but not so much in

0:27

the politics. And I think that if

0:29

between the two of them, if I

0:31

was to judge whose positions and whose

0:33

way of doing things is more likely

0:35

to lead to a government that actually

0:38

represents those millions who have been ignored

0:40

for such a long time, I would

0:42

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1:28

right, morning Gwen, how are you?

1:31

Good morning, good morning, not too

1:33

bad. It's been a interesting few

1:35

days in politics. Busy few days?

1:38

Busy few days. I'm waiting for

1:40

something disastrous to happen

1:42

elsewhere to move the

1:44

subject on. Well, let's

1:46

let people, let's give some

1:48

context, so they know who

1:50

we're talking to. I was working

1:52

in the European Parliament

1:55

for the Tories. I came

1:57

to the conclusion that the

1:59

thens being run, which was in

2:01

Europe not run by Europe, was a lie.

2:03

If you're in it, you're run by

2:05

it. Now there's arguments in favour of

2:07

being in it, yes, but you can't

2:09

claim not to be run by it

2:12

if you're in it. So I left

2:14

the Tories, I founded and created a

2:16

magazine called Unimaginatively the Sprout, Brussels.

2:18

And it was a private eye type thing.

2:20

I came to the conclusion. You

2:22

couldn't beat them with argument or

2:24

with lobbying or anything of this

2:27

sorta. So the best thing to

2:29

do is laugh at the Blighters.

2:31

So it was an investigative come

2:33

satirical magazine. I became the private

2:35

eye correspondent in Brussels myself. Then

2:37

after a couple of years doing that,

2:40

I was stringing for a couple of

2:42

papers. I was in the pub one

2:44

day and Farage came to me and

2:47

said, You ripped the piss, you, you're

2:49

a skeptic, you're a journalist? Yes,

2:51

yes, yes, will you do it

2:53

for me? And he offered me

2:55

significantly more than I was earning

2:57

as a freelance journalist to become

2:59

a bureaucrat and I became head

3:02

of the press for the European

3:04

group, political group in the European

3:06

Parliament, to which UKIP was associated,

3:09

and that was in 2004. I then

3:11

came over and worked the 2009 election

3:13

and stayed to become head of press

3:15

for the party. And then

3:17

I was the first employee

3:19

of the Brexit party. Just

3:21

after the referendum I left the

3:24

party in 2017 I think mainly

3:26

because I was interested in

3:28

the constitutional issue. I wasn't

3:30

so interested in, shall we

3:32

say, ethnicity? And the party

3:34

seemed to go down a

3:36

very, what I felt was

3:39

the wrong direction. I couldn't

3:41

share that. And then I was the

3:43

first employee of the Brexit

3:45

party. And then obviously

3:47

that exploded. We

3:50

won the European elections.

3:52

Trades and May had fell.

3:54

There was the 2019 general

3:57

election when we changed the

3:59

game. We made a big mistake in

4:01

believing a word that Boris Johnson

4:03

said, hey, I mean, many people,

4:05

like millions of people, have made

4:07

that mistake before, but we stood

4:09

down the party then, because we hoped

4:12

that getting Brexit done would

4:14

mean getting Brexit done, and Boris

4:16

would actually do what he said,

4:18

the party sort of went into

4:20

abeyance, and other than a few people

4:22

and Treasury paying off bills,

4:24

almost everybody was made redundant, just

4:27

in time for COVID. And then

4:29

Tice and Farage came to the

4:31

conclusion that we needed to keep

4:33

the party going along. It changed

4:36

its name to reform, and I

4:38

was brought back as a consultant

4:40

for reform and became the Director

4:42

of Commons as that stepped up.

4:45

Went through this general election, a

4:47

whole bunch of by-elections last year,

4:49

this general election, and then after

4:52

Nigel gave us, as if the

4:54

basic, get us ready for 2029.

4:56

this is your train set, players

4:58

as you wish. I was obviously

5:01

a roadblock on the democratization and

5:03

professionalization of the party, being not particularly

5:05

democratic or professional myself, and I was

5:07

septus to requirements with how we wanted

5:10

to set. set things going. Since then

5:12

I've been a commentator and heard some

5:14

of the bits and pieces. But you

5:17

appear not to have been better, you

5:19

stayed loyal to the party job for

5:21

life, I don't know for 20 years.

5:23

But some people are, some people are.

5:26

Some people are. To me I've always

5:28

been a cause loyalist, not a person

5:30

loyalist. Okay. And I think the cause is far

5:32

greater. What's it? One of Reagan's great

5:35

quotes. Man can achieve great things as

5:37

long as they don't demand the credit

5:39

as they don't demand the credit. Interesting.

5:41

Okay, so let me I'm going to

5:43

try and say as politically neutral today

5:45

as possible and I'll tell you the

5:47

the the lie of the land as

5:49

I see it in the the kind of vibe I've

5:51

got not only from making the show

5:53

and speaking to lots of different people

5:56

but talking to friends and where I

5:58

live out in Bedford. Real

6:01

Bedford, you know. No, I can just see

6:03

the thing on the end of

6:05

this. That's the football team we

6:08

own. Yeah, we bought the local

6:10

football club and we renamed them

6:12

Rail Bedford like Rail Madrid because

6:14

we, Bedford is nothing like Madrid.

6:16

Not very like, we kind of

6:19

like that. But yeah, so my

6:21

kind of. This is the first time

6:23

in my lifetime where there is an

6:25

actual threat to the establishment. Goodn't it?

6:28

It's great. I mean I don't like

6:30

bureaucracies, I don't like... I don't... I'm

6:32

not a family of any establishment really,

6:35

and ultimately I'd probably end up hating

6:37

every establishment in that. I always want

6:39

a smaller government, but I've lived my

6:42

entire life, watching my father and

6:44

brother argue about politics. I won't call

6:46

them out ones, very conservative, ones,

6:48

very left wing. and I've watched

6:51

a swing left and right my

6:53

entire life and I've failed to

6:55

see much that's got better,

6:57

just a more bloated establishment.

6:59

So we have the first

7:02

threat to the establishment in

7:04

our lifetime. In my lifetime,

7:06

shall I say? It is without doubt

7:08

it is an electoral threat to

7:10

labour. Yes. It's an existential

7:13

threat to the Tories. Very true.

7:16

And the feeling I get is

7:18

that conservative... uh... voters are

7:20

disenfranchised a lot more like me i'm

7:22

historically a conservative voter but didn't vote

7:24

in the last election uh... labor

7:26

voters i think a lot of them there's

7:28

there's a large group who couldn't vote

7:31

conservative again so went to labor

7:33

if they did vote they've regretted that

7:35

decision i think there's labor voters traditional

7:37

labor voters who don't know what that

7:39

parties become I think Conservatives under Kemi have

7:42

got a better leader but don't feel like

7:44

she's going to bring the change that's required.

7:46

And I was listening to an interview this

7:48

week, Musk and Rogan, but they were talking

7:50

about what's happening in America and what's required

7:53

is a fundamental shift in change. And I

7:55

feel like that's where we're at the point

7:57

in this country. It doesn't matter who's in

7:59

charge. We've got no growth. Real

8:02

GDP is dropping, GDP is

8:04

dropping, wages aren't increasing, inflation

8:06

is growing, crime feels up,

8:08

it feels like everything's just,

8:10

public services are breaking. It

8:13

does feel that at every

8:15

level the country is broken.

8:17

Yeah, broken and broke, and

8:19

if it was a company, it

8:21

would be liquidated and it would need

8:24

to start again. And countries can't

8:26

do that. And the really interesting thing

8:29

about reform is that in a very

8:31

short amount of time the overton window

8:33

has changed. It's gone from a party

8:35

where people were a bit embarrassed about

8:37

voting for, maybe wouldn't admit or

8:39

wouldn't admit they were considering to

8:41

now. Yeah, shy reformers. To now the conversations

8:43

I'm happening, people are like, oh no,

8:46

I voted for reform. Oh, it is

8:48

extraordinary. It's an fundamental shift. And

8:50

it's not just where one expects. And to

8:52

a certain extent, given the history of

8:54

what I call the tribe, which is.

8:56

people and parties people who

8:59

have worked voted or operated

9:01

within parties led by Nigel

9:03

Farage over the last 20

9:06

years that that group of people

9:08

we have a traditional

9:10

voting in certain parts of the

9:12

country but are now hearing this

9:14

sort of stuff in Surrey yeah

9:16

I was never the sort of

9:19

place that you'd expect that

9:21

sort of compensation well the

9:23

range of reform voters is

9:26

wild. I've, everything from people

9:28

who would align themselves with

9:30

the Tommy Robinson and more

9:32

working class, who feel like

9:35

they've been ignored and let

9:37

down by the country, to the

9:39

wealthiest people in the country, people

9:41

I know who run businesses, who

9:43

are millionaires, to the middle class,

9:46

it is classless in... It

9:48

is a fascinating coalition, yeah,

9:50

people, and the reason why we

9:52

are threat to both. and in Scotland with

9:54

threat to the S&P as well, the S&P

9:56

have seen, of all parties, the S&P are

9:58

seeing vote slide from... S.P. to reform

10:00

in Scotland. It's a remarkable.

10:03

And they are, all of them

10:05

are getting a bit itsy up

10:07

there. Whereas, the only party I

10:09

think can feel reasonably comfortable

10:11

with the impact of reform

10:13

is the Lib Dems. Because

10:16

if reform calls the Tories to

10:18

attack right, then they lose a

10:20

great chunk of their centrist dad

10:22

to the Lib Dems. As happened

10:24

in the last election, in fact.

10:27

But it doesn't feel like a

10:29

class war, it feels like a

10:31

policy war. Yes. Which is what

10:34

you want really. Up to a

10:36

point. It's one of the truisms

10:38

of Britain that the sort

10:40

of so-called upper classes

10:42

and the so-called working classes

10:45

often find themselves in

10:47

alliance, again, the middle

10:50

classes expanded unbelievably

10:52

since the collapse of

10:55

blue-collar labour. and the

10:57

upper class sort of ceased to

10:59

exist in many ways. But there

11:01

is still some hangover there. There

11:04

was always an alliance between those

11:06

two, and you had the middle,

11:08

which was more confused. It's

11:10

now, that middle is much

11:12

more minor university educated

11:14

with the vast expansion of

11:17

universities, and it is telling

11:19

that the voting passion suggests

11:21

that the more recent graduates

11:23

you've got, the more... likely

11:25

there's a vote Lib Dem

11:28

or Labour and the old

11:30

traditional places where the Lib

11:32

Dems were traditionally strong in the

11:34

Celtic periphery and that has happened

11:36

a bit in this return and

11:39

in this last election but

11:41

the Lib Dems are a

11:43

middle-class party. But I think

11:45

there are now a large

11:47

percentage of middle-class reform voters.

11:49

It's crying because I know from

11:51

the circles I mix in I

11:54

have friends who are, yeah, the good owners.

11:56

I might have two wages coming into the

11:58

house and they're in a position. now

12:00

where I know certain families of

12:02

two middle class wages coming in

12:04

they've pulled their kids safe from

12:06

private school because the fat increase

12:08

made it unaffordable. They're more difficult

12:10

and they and those same people

12:12

they look at their children and

12:14

they think these people are never

12:16

going to run a house. Never

12:18

going to run a house. And

12:20

if you can't run a house

12:22

if and if the rent is

12:24

impossible as well. with AI and

12:26

various other things. There are very

12:29

few jobs for life. It used

12:31

to be that the working class

12:33

were hammered by robotics and things

12:35

that other changes there. It's now

12:37

the middle class is who are

12:39

going to get hit. Just Surrey

12:41

is going to be like Durham,

12:43

County Durham, when the AR revolution

12:45

really hits, where the jobs that

12:47

has supported that lifestyle vanish as

12:49

the jobs that supported the pit

12:51

villages and all the rest vanished

12:53

in earlier days. And so... They

12:55

are very unstable. They have been

12:57

the most stable group in society

12:59

for decades, and now they're looking

13:01

down the barrel of a horrible

13:03

gun. And that instability, combine it

13:05

with mass migration and the basic

13:07

economics of supply and demand when

13:10

it comes to housing. Anybody who

13:12

claims, and people still do, that

13:14

migration has got nothing to do

13:16

with the housing crisis, are off

13:18

their heads. It's just simple. If

13:20

you get a million extra people,

13:22

you're going to leave at least

13:24

six, seven hundred thousand houses to

13:26

fit them in. And that's not

13:28

withstanding population growth, not just from

13:30

immigration, in certain parts of the

13:32

country where the housing price is

13:34

the greatest. So we have a

13:36

real problem there. So it's not

13:38

surprising the middle classes are looking

13:40

at current politics, this legacy parties,

13:42

and saying, well, you've done, you've

13:44

exacerbated these problems, you've done nothing,

13:46

the net zero agenda is shared

13:48

by all main parties, and it's

13:51

crucifying work. It's making the cost

13:53

of living worse and worse and

13:55

worse, it's sending jobs abroad, but

13:57

it's not making a blind bit

13:59

of difference of the planet. And

14:01

that's all those things, all the

14:03

main parties. all say the same

14:05

thing on those issues. And here

14:07

comes reform. It's hard on the

14:09

levels of migration. It's hard on

14:11

the net-zero chaos and the disaster

14:13

zone that that is bringing forward.

14:15

It is clearly in favor of

14:17

the family. When it comes to

14:19

taxation issues, the idea of transferable

14:21

tax allowance for married couples and

14:23

not just married legally instituted couples.

14:25

The lower taxes. trying to take

14:27

a break of regulation on refurbishment

14:29

of housing and town centers, with

14:31

all the regulations making it very

14:34

difficult to make it viable. It

14:36

is on the basic tax, when

14:38

it comes to small business taxation,

14:40

again, it's trying to lift the

14:42

load. We understand that for employment...

14:44

It's not big business that employs

14:46

people. They employ a lot of

14:48

people in single places, but it's

14:50

small business that employs people. The

14:52

growth of the economy does not

14:54

come from Megacorp. It comes from

14:56

Fred. And Fred's working his socks

14:58

off, but he's... now discovering there's

15:00

new legislation coming in on national

15:02

insurance for employees, the whole the

15:04

banter charter and the whole employees

15:06

rights thing. This idea that Labour

15:08

seems to be claiming that there

15:10

are no employees rights in this

15:12

country, well that's quite a lot

15:15

already. And any idea that you

15:17

oppose this this collection of idiocies

15:19

that they're putting forward is in

15:21

some way against workers. No, it's

15:23

not. What it seems to me

15:25

is they, Labour and to a

15:27

certain statutory, forget the fundamental, working

15:29

rights. is to have a job

15:31

in the first place. And if

15:33

people aren't taking people on because

15:35

if small businesses aren't taking people

15:37

on because they fear this great

15:39

tidal wave of regulation coming down

15:41

at cost, then it doesn't matter

15:43

how many workers' rights I've got

15:45

if I'm on the dull. Well,

15:47

I tell you the most, as

15:49

somebody employs people, the most stupid

15:51

part of these employment rights is

15:53

there are times where... you want

15:56

to get rid of somebody, whether

15:58

it's because you can't afford it,

16:00

because maybe your business is contracted,

16:02

you don't need them because you've

16:04

got more efficient, or you really

16:06

just want to get rid of

16:08

them because they're rubbish. Well that

16:10

would be me. I wasn't got

16:12

rid of them because they're rubbish.

16:14

Well that's... I wasn't got rid

16:16

of them because they didn't have

16:18

the money, and I'm arrested them

16:20

clearly, because I've had to get

16:22

rid of people in the past.

16:24

and it's right to get rid

16:26

of them. It's never fun though.

16:28

No, it's never, it's the worst

16:30

thing a while. It is you

16:32

have sleepless and so on. Of

16:34

course, it's awful, but all the

16:36

legislation does is create a misallocation

16:39

of capital because you have to

16:41

spend money on HR to make

16:43

sure you get every step of

16:45

the process right so you don't

16:47

get sued, but you still get

16:49

rid of them, but you have

16:51

this misallocation of capital that you

16:53

would have spent on... growing the

16:55

business, marketing, whatever, you know, it's

16:57

been a better payoff. A better

16:59

payoff, but you spend it now

17:01

on a HR process that is

17:03

costly both in terms of time

17:05

and money. So the whole thing

17:07

is beyond stupid. An HR is

17:09

so infected by diverse and inclusion,

17:11

it gets even worse. Yeah. I

17:13

mean, the only growth industry I

17:15

can think of in the country

17:17

is a sort of diverse inclusion

17:20

for scoped HR business. That seems

17:22

to be the only serious growth

17:24

industry. This is not... this is

17:26

not something that's going to take

17:28

our country forward. Well there's another

17:30

component to it as well. I

17:32

think a lot of people will

17:34

go through a HR process and

17:36

lose their job and feel hard

17:38

done by when really they would

17:40

have been benefited from being told,

17:42

look we're getting rid of you

17:44

because you're shit, you're turn up

17:46

late, you don't work, well the

17:48

work you've done isn't productive, you're

17:50

not, just being honest with them,

17:52

then they have to go out

17:54

and learn. If you go through

17:56

that painful, then they have to

17:58

go out. Learning lessons is something

18:00

that is actually disapproved of in

18:03

the modern world. Everything is value

18:05

free, everything is guilt free, there

18:07

is no consequence for any... action.

18:09

So if there are no consequences

18:11

for your actions, how do you

18:13

ever learn? Well, I think you

18:15

and I probably align on a

18:17

lot of things. I think a

18:19

lot of the nation is. This

18:21

is why I said the over-the-

18:23

window shifted on reform. Absolutely. Which

18:25

brings me to my main point

18:27

is at a time where they

18:29

have it in their hands, it

18:31

feels, and it appears that from...

18:33

Yeah, every couple of weeks we

18:35

see some, there seems to be

18:37

some infighting within reform. I as

18:39

an outside I think, this is

18:41

what I truly think. I've interviewed

18:44

Nigel, I've made him a couple,

18:46

I've bumped him the other week

18:48

actually, I've interviewed Richard, I've interviewed

18:50

Ben, I've interviewed Rupert, I haven't

18:52

met Lee, but there seems to

18:54

be a really great caliber of

18:56

people who were either on the

18:58

inside or on the inside or

19:00

in the inside fighting, where between

19:02

them... they have everything to build

19:04

a very strong party but there's

19:06

these fights happening which is weakening

19:08

them in the public eye it's

19:10

showing weakness to labour and conservatives

19:12

and it's handing ammo to the

19:14

journalists. Kelly Bannock's had her best

19:16

week yeah and she's done nothing

19:18

and said nothing yeah it's actually

19:20

probably a good week normally for

19:22

her but this has been her

19:25

best week and she's done nothing

19:27

yeah been considering this for a

19:29

while, one of these things that

19:31

I think is very very interesting

19:33

is the sort of people who

19:35

come to understand for us. I

19:37

truly believe when we go through

19:39

our selection process over the next

19:41

couple of years for the next

19:43

general election, you will see the

19:45

best, the most exceptional collection of

19:47

candidates from a hugely diverse range

19:49

of careers, of backgrounds, of knowledge,

19:51

of experience, of experience, of knowledge,

19:53

of experience. No offer will have

19:55

been made to the British people

19:57

in a general election. of that

19:59

level and range of quality for

20:01

well over 100 years because the

20:03

entire political system has shrunk and

20:05

shrunk and shrunk into a very

20:08

very small coterie of careers that

20:10

bring you into politics. Labor used

20:12

to have trade unionists, there's precious

20:14

few left. The Tories used to

20:16

have landowners, army officers. Yes, there

20:18

was always some lawyers, but the

20:20

range has just shrunk to a

20:22

very, very small collective and they're

20:24

all... sharp elbow to get to

20:26

the point that you can get

20:28

yourself selected to a seat you

20:30

might win. You've done 25 years

20:32

of polishing other people's asses to

20:34

get there in many many cases

20:36

or 20 years. So they are

20:38

all people who are trained in

20:40

the arts of subterfuge and all

20:42

the rest of it and they're

20:44

a particular sort of people with

20:46

reform. It's going to be very

20:49

different because one with you. So

20:51

you can't have spent 20 years

20:53

doing something because we only existed

20:55

three years ago. So that's not

20:57

possible. But that's the sort of

20:59

people we attract. We are a

21:01

party really of entrepreneurs. And if

21:03

you look at the top of

21:05

the, the top of the party,

21:07

both in the case of Farage,

21:09

of Zeyosif, of Richard, and of

21:11

Rupert, of those four of the

21:13

six main figures, they're all entrepreneurs.

21:15

Farrage is a political entrepreneur rather

21:17

than a business entrepreneur. So he

21:19

has done his business in the

21:21

past, but he's much more of

21:23

a political entrepreneur. He's created three

21:25

parties that have shaken the trees

21:27

of this country effectively. How many

21:30

people like that on the Labor

21:32

Front bench? No, no, no, no.

21:34

Yeah, we've done, we've run through

21:36

every single one. No, no, no,

21:38

no, no, no, no, no, no,

21:40

no, no, no, no, no, no,

21:42

no, no, no, no, no, no,

21:44

no, no, no, no, no, no,

21:46

no, no, no, no, no, no,

21:48

no, no, no, no, no, no,

21:50

no, no, no, no, no, no,

21:52

no, no, no, no, no, no,

21:54

no, no, no, no, no, no,

21:56

no, no, no, no, no, no,

21:58

no, no, no, no, no, no,

22:00

no, no, no, no, no, no,

22:02

no, no, no, Anybody? General one,

22:04

you spill them? Boilermakers? No boilers?

22:06

No? No, no. No, they came

22:08

from university and went into third

22:10

sector and then got a job

22:13

with the union. They weren't shop

22:15

floor workers. Yeah. And conservatives, even

22:17

the same. there's not really many

22:19

with real business experience and that's

22:21

when you see the policies they

22:23

put in place and you think

22:25

poor you don't understand business. What

22:27

this means is either as part

22:29

of a government or as government

22:31

or even perish the thought as

22:33

opposition you'll have a hundred hundred

22:35

fifty or more reform MPs and

22:37

their ability to deal with the

22:39

legislative program their ability to hold

22:41

government to account their ability to

22:43

rights legislation and go through the

22:45

committees and go through it properly

22:47

will be superb. But, and this

22:49

is the but, is that the

22:51

processes by which they're managed, now

22:54

that will be a little bit

22:56

more complicated because all people are

22:58

driven, all people have succeeded, they

23:00

know their stuff, and having somebody

23:02

say, oh you can't do that,

23:04

because... party matters because we need

23:06

to get this legislation through chap

23:08

and all that, that is going

23:10

to be a very, very highly

23:12

skilled job because you're dealing with

23:14

people who are achievers. You're not

23:16

dealing with the second rate and

23:18

the mediocre who can be marshaled

23:20

and whipped into corners and pushed

23:22

around. These are not going to

23:24

be people who are push aroundable.

23:26

So great for the country, not

23:28

so good for party discipline. Because

23:30

the sorts of people they are.

23:32

They're used to achieving things. They

23:35

used to clicking their fingers and

23:37

things happening. They used to being

23:39

run large. Indeed. And I think

23:41

what we've had in recent days

23:43

is a clash of that. You

23:45

have entrepreneurs at head office and

23:47

entrepreneurs in the parliament. And they're

23:49

both used to saying, this is

23:51

how it works. And people go,

23:53

yes, sir, and getting it done.

23:55

And then they find themselves. bashing

23:57

against each other on that level

23:59

because they're both people who have

24:01

achieved a great deal And I

24:03

think that's that is at heart

24:05

part of the problem that the

24:07

party's facing now It's a learning

24:09

curve It's deeply unedifying and I

24:11

wish we were where we are,

24:13

but at the same time. This

24:15

isn't, I don't think anybody's wildly

24:18

surprised with the caliber and these

24:20

sort of people who have got,

24:22

they're both, and that's your main

24:24

protagonist in this is Rupert obviously

24:26

and the head office. They're both

24:28

plain speaking, they're both effective communicators,

24:30

they both have their fan bases,

24:32

it's character. the sort of characters.

24:34

And we are suggesting that we're

24:36

going to try and elect 350

24:38

of them. It's going to be

24:40

the greatest cat herd in the

24:42

history of politics. But I think

24:44

it'll be good for the country.

24:46

It'll just be nightmare for the

24:48

people inside trying to organize it.

24:50

Somehow Trump's managed to achieve it

24:52

in the US. Trump won't so

24:54

much, was it? No. Okay, fair

24:56

point. That was the learning curve.

24:59

It was the learning curve. And

25:01

we have some years to do

25:03

this, but there are going to

25:05

be falling out. That's in the

25:07

nature of one of politics, too,

25:09

human nature, and three, the sort

25:11

of people we're talking about. We

25:13

don't want drones. We really don't

25:15

want drones. We don't want pawns.

25:17

We want... Achievers, we want people

25:19

who are going to, who are

25:21

involved, because they passionately believe in

25:23

this country, they passionately believe things

25:25

can be improved, they passionately want

25:27

to make the world a better

25:29

place in this part of the

25:31

world, particularly a better place. Now

25:33

if you've got that, you're going

25:35

to run into some trouble. It's

25:37

just the way it is. And

25:40

dreaming that all this crowd of

25:42

passionate, hard-working, bright, able, intelligent people

25:44

can just sit in a room

25:46

and say, yes. It's for the

25:48

birds for the birds. Do you

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C-A-S-A-I-O. That is casa.io. Possibly, but

26:49

it's going to be difficult. I

26:51

don't think it's impossible, but I

26:53

think it's unlikely. It's a great

26:55

shame, but I don't, but I

26:57

do think that... If

27:00

one was a helicopter, and I

27:02

am not, and one had the

27:04

ability to sort of knock heads

27:06

together, I think I'd be knocking

27:09

Rupert's head harder than Nigel's, mainly

27:11

because we're not in business, we're

27:13

in politics, and Nigel has so

27:16

much more experience of the political

27:18

entrepreneurialism than Rupert does. Rupert's is

27:20

frustrated. Impatient, he desperately wants things

27:22

to move now. It doesn't quite

27:25

work like that. Why haven't we

27:27

got? Why haven't we got a

27:29

whole platform of policies for government?

27:32

Because they don't just arrive. You've

27:34

actually got to consider them and

27:36

balance them against each other. And

27:38

okay, so if you've got a

27:41

health and social care bill legislation

27:43

looking like that, what's that going

27:45

to do to the education system?

27:48

And can we afford that and

27:50

that? And oh, by the way,

27:52

can we double the size of

27:54

our own forces? Yeah, puzzle. It's

27:57

a puzzle. And you can't just

27:59

say there should be. Yeah, you're

28:01

right, there should be. And there

28:04

will be. But it's not going

28:06

to happen instantly. An a bit

28:08

of patience is required. One thing,

28:10

and I think the last 25

28:13

years of British politics and Farage's

28:15

front line existence in British politics,

28:17

one thing he is recognized for

28:20

more than anything else is a

28:22

sense of timing. He gets... timing

28:24

and power, what is possible in

28:26

politics, rather than, you may say,

28:29

you may say, but boss, X,

28:31

and you'll go, yeah, going, you're

28:33

right, you're absolutely true. That is,

28:36

that is the case, but the

28:38

country won't wear it. It might

28:40

be true, but the country is

28:42

not prepared for it. So why

28:45

waste all political capital on an

28:47

issue that the country is not

28:49

yet ready to agree with? We

28:52

didn't burn lots and lots of

28:54

capital on net zero 10, 15

28:56

years ago on the anti-climate change

28:59

stuff, or anti-climate change legislation stuff.

29:01

Even though we all agreed that

29:03

it was going to be devastation

29:05

to the country, but at that

29:08

point, 90% of the people in

29:10

the country were cheerleading for self-immolation,

29:12

and there was just no point

29:15

of tearing ourselves on a hill

29:17

that the country would never follow.

29:19

Though it's about 20% are opposed

29:21

to what's going on, we feel,

29:24

and I think reasonably, that in

29:26

four years time, with four more

29:28

years of increased bills, four more

29:31

years of jobs being exported, four

29:33

more years of all the rubbish

29:35

that comes along with it, and

29:37

more and more farms being covered

29:40

over with wind farms and solar

29:42

arrays, we think that that 20%

29:44

may change significantly. So, Farage doesn't

29:47

at the front of waves. He's

29:49

never really at the very front

29:51

of waves, but he as the

29:53

wave curls, he's just behind the

29:56

peak. And he's ready to... the

29:58

wave in. So he uses a

30:00

wave that he's already seen. He's

30:03

already trained for surfing for a

30:05

long time, but he doesn't lead,

30:07

he's just behind the peak. On

30:09

the peak, you get crushed when

30:12

the wave comes down. And he's

30:14

timing, he's always been very good

30:16

at timing. Yes, I agree, but

30:19

no, not now. And I think

30:21

Rupert is a little bit more

30:23

impatient than that. He doesn't have

30:25

that same experience in politics. Great

30:28

experience in business. But

30:30

not so much in the politics

30:32

and I think not if between

30:35

the two of them if I

30:37

was to judge who's more likely

30:39

to and whose positions and whose

30:42

way of doing things is more

30:44

likely to lead to a government

30:46

that actually represents Those millions who

30:49

have been ignored for such a

30:51

long time I would put my

30:54

money on Nigel rather than Rupert

30:56

how hard it's because In

30:59

recent generations only one person's managed

31:01

it twice, three times almost, I'd

31:03

say twice because to be fair,

31:06

Richard Tice did an awful lot

31:08

of the back-breaking work at the

31:10

start for reform and that was

31:12

built on the Brexit Party. But

31:14

the Brexit Party was a single

31:16

issue, reform is a political party.

31:19

And so significant people who are

31:21

involved in the Brexit Party have

31:23

peeled off because they don't agree.

31:25

That was all about democracy in

31:27

respecting the referendum. That was the

31:29

Brexit Party. So, gloriously, I remember

31:32

in Strasbourg, the week after we

31:34

got elected to the European Parliament,

31:36

they had won the European election,

31:38

I was in Strasbourg, and round

31:40

a corner, and long towards a

31:42

corridor towards me, were walking, Claire

31:45

Fox and Anne Whittaker, one Maoist

31:47

left, one sort of great hero

31:49

of the Thatcherite right right, but

31:51

they both absolutely believed in democracy.

31:53

and they could walk down that

31:55

corridor as colleagues, arm in arm.

31:58

for the Brexit Party, honourably, because

32:00

they were both passionate beliefs in

32:02

democracy. Now, as the party grows

32:04

a series of policies on everything

32:06

under the sun, some peel off,

32:08

and stuck with it, Claire is

32:11

in the House of Lords doing

32:13

her stuff, but very much as

32:15

independent. She says on the freedom

32:17

of speech issues, on things of

32:19

this sort, she shares, our position,

32:22

but there's many positions she doesn't

32:24

share. And though political parties are

32:26

coalitions, and they are coalitions, and

32:28

they are. There comes a point

32:30

where yes I agree with 30%

32:32

that means I can't actually support

32:35

the party. Whereas if you agree

32:37

with 60% you can. Right. And

32:39

the polls are super interesting. They

32:41

keep growing in favour of reform.

32:43

Well there has been a knock

32:45

in the last week. Yeah of

32:48

course. But I was expecting it'd

32:50

be worse. It's down two today

32:52

in the Ugov. Yeah, and maybe

32:54

the Rupert Nigel situation isn't recoverable,

32:56

but the pole position is because

32:58

there is still this demand for

33:01

change. Without a doubt, as I

33:03

said before, I'm really saddened by

33:05

the row. I like both men,

33:07

I respect both men, I admire

33:09

both men in many ways, but

33:11

these things happen. Yeah. They just

33:14

do. And if you talk to

33:16

the Tory party at present. Kemmy's

33:18

not had a good since November

33:20

since she became leader. She went

33:22

to war with lunch. She's done

33:24

all sorts of weird and wonderful

33:27

things and she seems to be

33:29

brittle. She turns up late to

33:31

events. She just doesn't seem to

33:33

be prepared. She was in part

33:35

elected because it was expected she'd

33:37

be a storm at the dispatch

33:40

box and she has been defeated

33:42

week after week after week after

33:44

week by a frankly, very dull

33:46

Prime Minister, but he has the

33:48

bettering of her every week. In

33:50

the Tory Party, from what I

33:53

understand, many Tory MPs have got

33:55

their diary with a little red

33:57

circle around a date in November

33:59

when they're allowed to write letters

34:01

to call for her head because

34:04

she has a whole year before

34:06

they have another they're allowed to

34:08

have another leadership election. There's a

34:10

lot of Tories out there saying

34:12

that can we should be replaced.

34:14

But generic? Question is congenery wing.

34:17

Win. It's not that he wouldn't,

34:19

he shouldn't be able to win,

34:21

but since November. And since there,

34:23

the leadership election, where Genric didn't

34:25

win, about, let's think, reform of

34:27

gained 180,000 members since then, of

34:30

which, what, 30,000 to former Tories,

34:32

on the right, fed up with

34:34

Kemi and fed up with the

34:36

slide of the Tories, are there

34:38

enough, right-of-centered Tory party members, to

34:40

win a one-on-one election? I think

34:43

you're guaranteeing a centrist because they've

34:45

lost so many of the people

34:47

who would have voted for generic

34:49

have joined reform and they can't

34:51

vote anymore. And that's why it's

34:53

existential for the Conservatives. This is

34:56

why it's an existential threat. This

34:58

isn't just a question of can

35:00

we take some of their votes.

35:02

This is do we remove their

35:04

soul? And yes, is the answer.

35:06

It's very interesting because going back

35:09

to the polls, I do think

35:11

it's recoverable, but the polls are

35:13

alluding to... a position where reform

35:15

can win the next election, which

35:17

I don't think at the end

35:19

of the previous election everyone thought.

35:22

I think everybody knows now. I

35:24

have to say, when Zia first

35:26

said that live. Here we go,

35:28

what's this? What do we got

35:30

here, Khan? That is Labour Conservative.

35:32

And reform. Reform. Reform. So what

35:35

are the numbers at the end?

35:37

26% Labour. Third of March. Third

35:39

of March. Oh, third of March.

35:41

So it's pre that issue. So

35:43

it's, before it went up in

35:46

some, if this is a, if

35:48

this is a poll of polls

35:50

type thing. So today's one has

35:52

Labour back up, it's tightened, it's

35:54

tightened, it's narrowed, it's narrowed because

35:56

reform has gone down too, I

35:59

think Labour's gone up too, so

36:01

it's narrowed and tightened, I think

36:03

Labour back up one, but yeah,

36:05

that's the, there are three parties.

36:07

Yeah. We are now in a

36:09

three party situation. The question is

36:12

can, and because if you're in

36:14

a three party situation, as we

36:16

discovered at the last election, Well,

36:18

you had two parties and then

36:20

two parties. You only need 34%

36:22

to win a massive majority. You

36:25

don't need 50%. You need 34%

36:27

to win a huge majority. Could

36:29

you see any weird scenario where

36:31

we end up with a labor

36:33

conservative coalition? I sort of caught

36:35

on sanitary around us. Yeah. Let's

36:38

see what happens in Scotland. Yeah.

36:40

And I think despite this bad,

36:42

I think we've still, we've got

36:44

a very, very good chance of

36:46

winning the Meralty and Gregy Lincolnshire,

36:48

then there's Doncaster, there's Hull, I

36:51

think you'll be finding that there

36:53

are, we're putting up a very

36:55

good fight in some of the

36:57

Meralty's, Linkety Council, quite possible, but

36:59

it's entirely possible, you've got a

37:01

rabbit, the last time these, these

37:04

seats went up, was at the

37:06

height of the Boris popularity. So

37:08

it's a very false high for

37:10

the Tories. So they are going

37:12

to come a cropper. They are

37:14

going to get the absolute cropper

37:17

in these council elections. Now whether

37:19

reform can pick up, I think

37:21

they probably can. I think we're

37:23

going to have a good night

37:25

despite the difficulties, despite the allegations

37:28

that Farage is a Putin sympathizer

37:30

and which is the other big

37:32

hit they've got. Oh, he's got

37:34

to close down the NHS? No,

37:36

he isn't. Oh, he's a fan

37:38

of no, he isn't. But there

37:41

is a bit of inviting. But

37:43

let's go, no denial of that.

37:45

Well, the media's at blame for

37:47

some of this, and we will

37:49

talk about that. I think the

37:51

July the 4th election day, we're

37:54

now in a position where reform

37:56

can win, absolutely can win. What

37:58

are the biggest challenges then? You

38:00

talk about how difficult a job

38:02

it is for Nigel, how difficult

38:04

a challenge it is to establish

38:07

a party that can win and

38:09

then govern? Those are two different

38:11

things. I think the, July the

38:13

4th election day, we stood down

38:15

because they are, after the election

38:17

day, after the election day, there

38:20

are no candidates left. Soon as

38:22

the count the election is over,

38:24

as soon as the count finishes,

38:26

you are no longer a candidate.

38:28

We had based our election campaign

38:30

on the individuals who were our

38:33

candidates. So they created little groups

38:35

of people, WhatsApp groups and teams

38:37

on their Facebook page and all

38:39

the rest of it, to go

38:41

out and campaign. That was reform

38:43

on the ground. There were regional

38:46

organizers, but there were in most

38:48

cases were unpaid. voluntarily trying to

38:50

organize things. I remember going to

38:52

the head office in Ashby-de-Lazouche, halfway

38:54

through the campaign because I needed

38:56

some Rosettes. I got there and

38:59

there was a cupboard. I want

39:01

to see, let's think, it's covered

39:03

no bigger than that brick area

39:05

there. Which was the merchandise covered

39:07

for the party. There was half

39:10

a tray of Rosettes. Halfway through

39:12

it. That was it. We had

39:14

no merchandise. We had nothing. It

39:16

was really that. That cupboard was

39:18

literally bare. Obviously, you try and

39:20

the fact that we've got 4.1

39:23

million votes in this situation suggests

39:25

a couple of things. One, the

39:27

hard work of the people on

39:29

the ground. Two, it suggests that

39:31

there was a great appetite in

39:33

the country for change. And three,

39:36

the arrival of Farage supercharged the

39:38

campaign. I mean, a week for

39:40

the beginning of the election campaign

39:42

when Ritchie's standing in the rain.

39:44

We know... we were expecting it

39:46

to be in November. Everybody was

39:49

expecting November. There he goes. He

39:51

stands in the rain. It all

39:53

looks pretty miserable. No, we're going

39:55

to go to the... country, he

39:57

thinks he's not far out of

39:59

the rates. And the media and

40:02

the country went, well, we've known

40:04

for the last two years that

40:06

Labour's going to win, and we've

40:08

got the spectacle of Rishisunak and

40:10

Kiyastama, the most exciting couple of

40:12

politicians we've seen for decades. Oh,

40:15

and that bloke on a bungee

40:17

jump. There's your election campaign. The

40:19

country were bored with before the

40:21

rain had... poured into the gutters

40:23

of Downing Street. The country were

40:25

already pre-board. And the arrival of

40:28

Farage lit the campaign up. It

40:30

suddenly became interesting. The press loved

40:32

it. Alas, something to arise about.

40:34

And it made a magnificent difference.

40:36

It had a huge difference in

40:38

the election campaign, how it was

40:41

covered, how it was perceived by

40:43

the general public. It became interesting.

40:45

The classic case in point. Anybody

40:47

who thinks that... It was all

40:49

the hard work of the people

40:52

on the ground and the very

40:54

small professional team that had existed

40:56

before. Last year I was head

40:58

of Director of Combs, I was

41:00

on a thousand a month, that's

41:02

it. That's the level of, one

41:05

I suppose, idiocy, on my part,

41:07

the commitment, I'll call it commitment.

41:09

The fact, this is the level

41:11

of what was going on, this

41:13

is how much we were paying

41:15

people, it was peanuts. But when

41:18

Farage arrived, some money did arrive,

41:20

but we did arrive, but we

41:22

did. you'd try and spend money

41:24

effectively in a five-week campaign. You

41:26

can't order Rosettes. They won't arrive.

41:28

So a lot of it was

41:31

spent on advertising, a newspaper advertising,

41:33

as a way to get out

41:35

there. A lot of the money

41:37

was spent on things of this

41:39

sort, because you can't, in five

41:41

weeks, create a party overnight. It

41:44

just doesn't work like that. It's

41:46

not possible. We had a few

41:48

rallies, we could do that. But

41:50

I mean, one weekend, that I

41:52

think... On the Saturday I was

41:54

asked to organize and help or

41:57

help organize and run the media

41:59

in Sunderland. and this on

42:01

Friday, oh but you're going to

42:03

be in Sunderland on the Sunday,

42:06

okay. I'd like an event for

42:08

2000, where in Devon, where

42:10

Monday, oh, right, yeah, okay, that

42:12

shouldn't be a problem. You find

42:15

a event, and it's also

42:17

midsummer, who's in June. And

42:19

you're traveling in the length

42:21

of the country. And you

42:23

want a sound stage. The thing about

42:26

June is every village in the country is

42:28

having a village fate and all those trucks

42:30

with a sound system on it. They've

42:32

all been booked. Fortunately, one of the guys

42:34

in the office, one of Nijusti, was able,

42:37

through somebody else, he found one. We went

42:39

and found one of these trucks, we put

42:41

in a car park of Trego Mills down

42:43

outside Newton Avenue, two and a half

42:46

thousand people turned up. Two days, those stickers

42:48

was going on. It wasn't us. We

42:50

were just tapping into something that

42:52

pre-existed. But Farage's engagement obviously changed the

42:54

weather for us. We would have, I

42:57

thought before the election it was likely

42:59

we could get with four, four and

43:01

a half million votes and not a

43:03

single seat because our vote is spread.

43:05

It's spread, yeah. Rather than focused,

43:07

the Lib Dems get 74 seats

43:09

and fewer votes than us because

43:11

their vote is focused. And also

43:14

there was an unspoken non-agression pack

43:16

between them and Labour and everybody

43:18

hated the Tories. after 14 years.

43:20

There was no enthusiasm for labor,

43:22

but it was just a complete,

43:24

we'd just get rid of the

43:26

Tories, so therefore they were helped

43:29

by that. So based on that, do

43:31

you think there is a certain amount

43:33

of truth to what Rupert said about

43:35

it being a protest vote then?

43:38

No, we're definitely a political

43:40

party, though there was protest.

43:42

Yes, I mean, yes. There

43:44

is certainly a level of

43:46

protest. just as the mass of

43:48

the significant uptick of Lib Dems seats

43:50

were protest seats against the Tories yes

43:52

there's a level of that yes but

43:54

I don't think the the Brexit party was

43:57

absolutely a protest party or

43:59

single issue protest. Reform isn't and

44:01

wasn't. We do have a contract. We

44:03

do have things of that sort. So

44:05

I think he's wrong there, but he's

44:07

frustrated that we haven't produced a

44:09

whole collection of thought through policies.

44:11

Well, we've only got X many

44:13

staff and if you've got them

44:15

setting up 400 branches around the

44:17

country, if you've got them organizing

44:20

campaigns, if you've got them fighting

44:22

these elections all over, they can't

44:24

do that as well and they've

44:26

been events all over the country.

44:28

packed out, set out events all

44:30

over the country from West Cornwall,

44:32

Essex, Scotland, you name

44:34

it, but everywhere. There's only so

44:37

many brains operating in head office

44:39

and they're doing an awful

44:41

lot already. Farage, I have

44:43

mentioned this prior previously

44:45

rather than here, but I

44:47

remember in September, somebody coming

44:49

to the United States, I've

44:51

got these ideas for policies

44:53

and his attitude, so go away, just

44:56

go, work on them, work on them, come

44:58

back to me March, April, next year,

45:00

but I'm just not going to

45:02

look at policies until then. We've

45:05

got so much more work to

45:07

do now. And is that all

45:09

the professionalisation, the democratisation? Yes, all

45:11

that stuff, the constitution, but also,

45:13

it's more the growth of a

45:15

professional structure, paid staff, operating in

45:18

all parts of the country, building

45:20

up the branches, setting up

45:22

bank accounts for branches. If you're

45:24

involved in politics, the chance of setting

45:26

up a bank account is almost nil

45:28

because of the politically exposed people. Well,

45:30

we already know that Farage was targeted.

45:32

And so therefore, getting a banking system

45:35

which allows branches to have bank accounts

45:37

so they can raise money for local

45:39

campaigning and da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-a. You can't just go

45:41

into your local Barclays and there's little

45:43

old man with... half cut glasses saying,

45:45

oh yes I remember from you for

45:47

when you were at primary school, yes

45:49

of course, yes I'd have a bank

45:51

account, it doesn't work like that anymore,

45:53

it's really hard work, setting up the

45:55

back office, making, we are constantly

45:57

having to check with cyber security.

46:00

because guess what there are people out

46:02

there who don't like us? So there's

46:04

a whole bunch of stuff that has

46:06

to be done behind the scenes and

46:08

it's costly and it's hard work

46:11

and it's time-consuming. So... How

46:13

much slimy backdoor shit happens?

46:15

I don't know. There are cyber attacks,

46:17

yes. Remember I've not been in

46:19

head office since October so I

46:21

don't know exactly the new systems, I

46:24

don't know. Do you think, are they

46:26

internal, like in the UK or

46:28

are they external... meddling. Well,

46:30

I think the main nation

46:32

border is hardly a secret.

46:34

I think that is a

46:36

US-designed thing. I don't know

46:38

where it's held. I think

46:40

a lot of... You go

46:42

bespoke. You have to go

46:44

bespoke. And there has to

46:46

be significant cybersecurity. Because there

46:48

are people out to get us. And

46:51

we are threatening the status

46:53

quo to such an extent that

46:55

you name it. Business. deep state call

46:57

it what you will, then they don't

46:59

like the look of our job at

47:01

all. They would have us crushed. They're

47:04

same sort of people that

47:06

put an awful lot of

47:08

efforts into defunding things like

47:10

GB News and stop funding

47:12

haste and all these these

47:14

organizations, these I suspect. Home Not

47:16

Hate. For example, but I

47:18

suspect many of them will

47:20

discover are funded by USAID. I guess

47:23

I would think. I mean what is

47:25

it you are a real... threat too.

47:27

What is it the real threat? What

47:30

we really threat, the

47:32

complacent status quo,

47:35

that believes that

47:37

national differences are

47:39

in some way bad,

47:42

that that sees the

47:44

free movement of people

47:46

capital across the world

47:49

as the unallowed good,

47:51

it is... Funded by

47:53

big corporations and all the rest

47:56

of it. I'm not a...

47:58

ooh Davos! W-F-scary chap! But... Davos,

48:00

WF scary, WF scary. It's not

48:02

something that keeps you awake at

48:05

night. I don't look at the

48:07

sky and go, oh look, chemtrels.

48:09

But there is, without doubt, and

48:12

the European Union was

48:14

part of that, the idea

48:16

of there's a single global

48:18

legal system, there's a single

48:20

globe, you have to allow people

48:23

to cross-border, surely.

48:25

No. There is a sort of

48:27

monoglot. system of governance. There's,

48:29

there are, I mean, when Vance

48:32

turns up in Munich and made

48:34

his comments, and I thought, well, somebody

48:36

had to say it. And the whole,

48:38

the whole room had a fit of

48:40

the vapors. The organized with

48:43

the conference. Who was the guy

48:45

that laughed at Trump went at,

48:47

when Trump warned them for using Russian

48:49

gas? Yeah, a long time ago.

48:51

Yeah, it was seen the video.

48:53

was in tears, in tears, because

48:55

it was his conference and Mr

48:57

Vansen said nasty things to us.

48:59

He warned us, I seen the

49:02

videos. Yeah, he was right. He

49:04

was right. But the point being

49:06

is these people that see global

49:08

capital, the black rocks of

49:10

this world, the massive investments,

49:12

the taking over of vast

49:14

quantities of land, the poor

49:16

farmers in Holland, and all

49:18

this, these are linked. So who

49:20

do we threat that lot? We provide

49:23

a significant threat to them

49:25

and things like the central,

49:28

central banking digital currencies,

49:30

the ability of the states to

49:32

control your every aspect of life.

49:34

These are terrifying. This is why

49:37

I'm a big coiner. Yeah, but

49:39

they are terrifying. Yeah, because they

49:42

remove agency from the individual to

49:44

the state. Most people that I

49:46

come across in politics, particularly those

49:49

in power in politics, frankly

49:51

think people are annoying,

49:53

they're not good

49:55

for themselves, they don't know

49:58

what's good for them. We

50:00

are experts, we are brilliant, we

50:02

know exactly what should happen. And people

50:04

are ciphers to be moved around a

50:06

page. And that's not who we are.

50:09

It's not what the common law

50:11

does. The slowly overturning of

50:13

the common law under the

50:15

European system was a dreadful thing

50:17

for liberty, for freedom, for our

50:20

way of being. The concept

50:22

of Englishmen's homes is castle.

50:24

The concept of free-born Englishmen. These

50:26

were phrases that existed... hundreds

50:29

of years before democracy.

50:31

The concept of a free-born

50:33

Englishman does not require a

50:35

vote. It requires something about

50:37

ourselves and our culture. And these

50:39

are difficult. They are awkward. They

50:42

are a scab on the skin

50:44

of the body politic. It is

50:46

not something that if you want

50:49

efficiency, if your sole driver

50:51

is efficiency and simplicity,

50:53

nation-states, customs, customary ways

50:56

of being. are, they get in the

50:58

way, they just get in the way,

51:00

it gets in the way of what they

51:02

perceive as progress. And what is progress?

51:04

You will be poor and you will

51:06

be happy, no, but there is something

51:08

about that. You'll own nothing, you'll be

51:11

happy. Indeed. If you think what Thatcher

51:13

did with the idea of the Proctorian

51:15

democracy, why did she want people

51:17

to buy their council homes? The

51:19

security of wealth. It wasn't to

51:21

remove the council homes from the

51:23

ownership of the state. It was

51:25

to give people the security of

51:27

wealth. that meant that they were free

51:29

from the state. That's the... that

51:32

was the theoretical underpinning of

51:34

Council House sales. If somebody

51:36

owns their own property, they

51:38

are protected from the state's

51:41

whims because they have their own

51:43

independent capital. I find one of

51:45

the things I think is most

51:47

evil is these adverts on... not

51:49

that I was unemployed or shouldn't

51:52

based on TV, but those

51:54

adverts about equity release. Here,

51:56

have lots of money, go on lots of

51:58

holidays, and when you die... We get your

52:01

house and your kids get nothing.

52:03

And the passage of money down

52:05

the generations protects people from the

52:07

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as ledger.com. I saw this great

53:01

interview with Steve Bannon who I

53:03

don't... Oh no great fan, but

53:05

I like him in interviews and

53:07

I usually... Usually it's the first

53:09

half of the interview where he

53:11

talks about his father, his grandfather,

53:13

his background, he talks about the

53:15

working class, he talks about a

53:17

specific story that was either his

53:19

father or his grandfather, talked about

53:21

them working for the telephone company

53:23

and he said everybody worked for

53:25

them had shares. And so you,

53:27

you know, it was a job

53:29

for life and you had ownership

53:31

into the success in the future.

53:33

Like Peter Jonesman. Yeah, and he

53:35

talked about that. He said you

53:37

built capital. You had your home,

53:39

you had your job and you

53:41

had this capital that you built.

53:43

And he said there was a

53:45

time where I was trying to

53:47

remember the exact stories, but I

53:49

might get slightly wrong and I

53:52

think it was during an economic

53:54

crash, you know, and the shares

53:56

did. And they were all encouraged

53:58

to sell their shares and they're

54:00

shares and they did. and then

54:02

nobody owned shares and capital in

54:04

the company they were part of.

54:06

And that is something that we've

54:08

moved away from. That people do

54:10

have that kind of ownership. And

54:12

the cooperative movement. this is not

54:14

a movement of rich people, this

54:16

movement of little people clubbing together.

54:18

to work for their own interests.

54:20

I'm a great fan of the

54:22

trade unions in reality, you might

54:24

think otherwise, but I am, because

54:26

they are individuals coming together to

54:28

work for their own interest, it's

54:30

not the state doing it for.

54:32

I love the Royal British Legion,

54:34

I love the Rotary Club, I

54:36

love all these organisations. Well, the

54:38

problem with the trade unions is

54:40

when they mix with the politicians.

54:42

That's the problem. That's the biggest

54:44

problem, but if you live too

54:46

much influence. If you look in

54:48

the, if you go around the

54:50

towns of Northern England, the towns

54:52

of Northern England, the old industrial,

54:54

the old industrial centres, the old

54:56

industrial centres, the work- people were

54:58

working the factory were in themselves,

55:00

they did it themselves, they built

55:02

these things to educate themselves. And

55:04

if they weren't just, and we

55:06

see, we see schools saying, oh

55:08

no, you can't learn Latin, these

55:10

working man's institutes in Blackburn and

55:12

Preston, all the rest of it,

55:14

they were teaching Latin, they were

55:16

teaching Greek, because they felt that

55:18

all the world's knowledge, all of

55:20

it. was theirs by right just

55:22

as much as it was some

55:24

Bloke lived in a manor house

55:26

and went to Eason and that

55:28

is something admirable and that is

55:30

the sort of spirit that we

55:32

want to reintroduce and regain. Well

55:34

I've had George Galloway sat there,

55:36

I've had William Cluson from the

55:38

SDP there and the interesting thing

55:40

about both those guys is they're

55:43

really from the left but I

55:45

feel a lot more aligned with

55:47

them than I do with say

55:49

Rishi Sunak or you know a

55:51

current Conservative Party and actually... I

55:53

think I even put it to

55:55

Galloway, or it might have been

55:57

William Clustin, but I actually think

55:59

they share a huge amount of

56:01

ideas and values with reform. Oh,

56:03

and Willie would agree. I'm not

56:05

so much about George, but Willie

56:07

certainly would. There's a fascinating book,

56:09

I think it's called Rebels duh.

56:11

And it's a history of rebellion

56:13

in England. All the different... going

56:15

the peasant's revolt, the prayer book

56:17

rising, you name it, all the

56:19

way back. And what is fascinating?

56:21

about revolutions and attempted revolutions in

56:23

this country is that they're almost

56:25

always conservative. They're not about creating

56:27

a perfect world. They're saying, can

56:29

we have our rights and liberties

56:31

back? What was Brexit? Brexit exactly

56:33

that. There was no idea that

56:35

we're going to create a perfect

56:37

world. We just want our freedoms

56:39

back, thank you very much. And

56:41

that fits in. We are not

56:43

idealists. We're pragmatists. One of the

56:45

wonderful things in... In 1382, isn't

56:47

it, the presence revolt? The lot

56:49

that came down from the Midlands,

56:51

I think they went through St.

56:53

Albans slaughtered the bishop and various

56:55

cause trouble. But anyhow, at the

56:57

front of their, as they marched

56:59

through the Midlands and down to

57:01

London, they carried with them the

57:03

charter of offer of Mercier. 600

57:05

years. 600 years, offer of mercy

57:07

was 600 years before the peasants

57:09

revolt. But they were looking at

57:11

this charter. These are the liberties

57:13

we were granted. 600 years ago.

57:15

That's all we want. That's all

57:17

we want back. They were as

57:19

far from offer as we are

57:21

from them. So what is it

57:23

you think people really want right

57:25

now? I think they want to

57:27

be left alone. Yeah. I really

57:29

think they want to be able

57:31

to live their lives, look after

57:34

their families, earn if they can

57:36

invest in their properties, they want

57:38

to be able to drive out

57:40

into the countryside and enjoy it.

57:42

They don't want a car that

57:44

the government can switch off at

57:46

the wall. Because if everybody's driving

57:48

electric cars, if the government decides

57:50

we don't want people to move,

57:52

click. They can't move. they want

57:54

their own local community to be

57:56

looking safe, comfortable, they want to

57:58

feel, to be able to walk

58:00

down the street and not feel

58:02

alien in a street that there's...

58:04

that's their own. And they want

58:06

to be treated with, I hate

58:08

the word respect, they want to

58:10

be treated as people of this

58:12

country. Respect has to be earned

58:14

and most people seem to scream

58:16

respect if they haven't earned anything

58:18

at all. But I think people,

58:20

they don't want the moon. They

58:22

really don't. Most people are perfectly

58:24

happy with the day-to-day, but they

58:26

feel the day-to-day is being removed

58:28

from them as well. How undemocratic

58:30

was... The EU itself in that

58:32

wildly my I had very little

58:34

understanding of the EU when when

58:36

Brexit came about I was Interested

58:38

mainly because I probably until Nigel

58:40

started kicking up a stink I

58:42

couldn't name one MEP. No, I

58:44

didn't know what I was voted

58:46

for I didn't know what issues

58:48

they what resolutions what bills they

58:50

were passed I just didn't understand

58:52

we were so far removed from

58:54

my life I think it basically

58:56

got to just do what the

58:58

fucking wanted which would serve the

59:00

nation states together? Well, again, it

59:02

was about ironing out differences. It

59:04

was interesting. But we want differences.

59:06

Well, I think so. But the

59:08

left, the old left-wing Eurosceptics, of

59:10

which George Galloway was one, and

59:12

Bob Crow was another, they saw

59:14

it as a boss's club, and

59:16

they weren't entirely wrong. Regulation is

59:18

extant for big business. Because they

59:20

can mop it up in solar

59:22

systems. It's appalling for startups. Regulation

59:25

is not designed to save people.

59:27

It is designed to keep out

59:29

competition. Which is why you have

59:31

the cheerleaders in the big ministers

59:33

for most regulation. They love it,

59:35

because it just drives competition out.

59:37

It went harder and harder to

59:39

enter a market if it's heavily

59:41

regulated. So, most of it was

59:43

that. We're regulating the size of

59:45

widgets. most of the time. And

59:47

also it brought in what I

59:49

think is a disastrous principle, which

59:51

the precautionary principle. Oh, you can't

59:53

do that! Nobody's done it. Yeah,

59:55

but you might, and you might

59:57

fall off. No, no, no, no,

59:59

no, no. But give me, let

1:00:01

me give it a try. No,

1:00:03

no, no, no, no, no. Let

1:00:05

me tell you a story. So

1:00:07

yesterday, I was in, I was,

1:00:09

the town's under Bedford, Bedford, where

1:00:11

I'm. and you've got shops on

1:00:13

either side and old Debenham's one

1:00:15

side which is obviously closed down

1:00:17

and disused and I would say

1:00:19

25% of the shops on Silver

1:00:21

Street corner are probably empty fair

1:00:23

yeah yeah and but there's this

1:00:25

little French cafe that's open up

1:00:27

there's totally unsuited for Bedford it's

1:00:29

beautiful they've got they've got beautiful

1:00:31

wines on the shelf which they

1:00:33

can't sell just yet they make

1:00:35

these lovely sandwiches a little bit

1:00:37

pricey but they're good a very

1:00:39

good salami and cheese and a

1:00:41

baguette they make a fantastic coffee

1:00:43

and I walked in and I

1:00:45

met met the guy first time

1:00:47

I've actually met him he runs

1:00:49

it and I was just having

1:00:51

to chat with him saying how's

1:00:53

it going and he was just

1:00:55

having to chat with him and

1:00:57

saying how's it going and he

1:00:59

was talking about local regulations this

1:01:01

made me laugh he said they

1:01:03

still don't have their alcohol license

1:01:05

he said he was there the

1:01:07

other day And he saw somebody

1:01:09

from the council outside and they

1:01:11

had a tape measure and they

1:01:13

were measuring outside and he said,

1:01:16

what are you doing? They said,

1:01:18

well, we're going to measure the

1:01:20

distance where your seats can go.

1:01:22

And he said, why? And she

1:01:24

said, well, there may be, say,

1:01:26

a pregnant mother walking who's not

1:01:28

used to chairs being there and

1:01:30

she's not looking and she might

1:01:32

bump into the chairs and fall

1:01:34

over. Yeah, I know. This this

1:01:36

it feels like the world we're

1:01:38

in now is that it is

1:01:40

the world we give too many

1:01:42

people yeah any small business like

1:01:44

that is particularly small businesses are

1:01:46

are public facing. Yes. So the

1:01:48

hospitality industry being the classic one.

1:01:50

Just that it is comedy if

1:01:52

it wasn't destroying on for no

1:01:54

longer. I'll give you another thing.

1:01:56

Because it happened just, how many

1:01:58

a series of concerts in Bedford

1:02:00

Park? It's a beautiful park. He's

1:02:02

had Avril Levine was there last

1:02:04

year. He's had sting there. All

1:02:06

these amazing people. And these concerts

1:02:08

do very well, but to make

1:02:10

money at a concert like this,

1:02:12

you really need to be at

1:02:14

the 15,000 to 20,000. I think

1:02:16

their license is about 10 to

1:02:18

12. And he's been trying to

1:02:20

get it up to 15 to

1:02:22

20,000. And he hasn't been able

1:02:24

to get it because of complaints.

1:02:26

Local complaints. It's a handful of

1:02:28

people complain about the noise in

1:02:30

the traffic. But the town is

1:02:32

full. The restaurants are full. The

1:02:34

hotels are full. You're filling the

1:02:36

town with people. They come and

1:02:38

I went to the Sting concert.

1:02:40

They don't like it. But they

1:02:42

bring people from, yeah, this is

1:02:44

it, look. Yeah, but you can

1:02:46

see, you can see how that's

1:02:48

about 12,000 people, right? Well, that

1:02:50

could be 20,000 people. And yes,

1:02:52

parking will be a nightmare. But

1:02:54

I've been to concerts where we've

1:02:56

taken an hour to get out,

1:02:58

an hour and a half, you

1:03:00

just suffer is part of the

1:03:02

thing. You live it. You live

1:03:04

it. You live it. You live

1:03:07

it. But every single. But every

1:03:09

single shop. But every single shop.

1:03:11

But every single shop. But every

1:03:13

single shop. But every single shop.

1:03:15

for those weekends we'll have the

1:03:17

potential 8,000 more customers they'll make

1:03:19

a lot more money and there's

1:03:21

more money in the town but

1:03:23

it's the starting point is always

1:03:25

no yes I don't know computers

1:03:27

says no I have a similar

1:03:29

down I'm from Dorset and our

1:03:31

big thing yes we've got best

1:03:33

owners best all that I don't

1:03:35

know but our big thing is

1:03:37

the great Dorset steamfare I think

1:03:39

is the southwest for the weekend

1:03:41

runs is the fourth largest city

1:03:43

in the southwest. It's in the

1:03:45

field, in the middle, nowhere predicles.

1:03:47

Staupaine or near Staupaine. But the

1:03:49

Staupaine Fair, Shroton Fair, has been

1:03:51

going for hundreds of years. This

1:03:53

is actually the latest iteration of

1:03:55

a fair that was granted its

1:03:57

charter back in the midst of

1:03:59

medieval history. And it's the greatest

1:04:01

collection of traction engines, but they've

1:04:03

got all sorts of, just masses

1:04:05

of stuff goes on. Two hundred

1:04:07

fifty thousand, huge fun fair, steam

1:04:09

rallies, blah, blah, blah. It's also

1:04:11

where many of the English Romany.

1:04:13

go to strut their stuff to

1:04:15

find, because they all congregate there.

1:04:17

It's almost like a, it's like

1:04:19

a sort of 19th century promenade

1:04:21

where the young bows and lasses

1:04:23

come up dressed the nines and

1:04:25

show off to each other. It's

1:04:27

great. But the last couple of

1:04:29

years, and I've read recently it

1:04:31

was going to be closed down,

1:04:33

insurance. Millions. of pounds worth insurance

1:04:35

just to have it. Now this

1:04:37

is a fair that's been going

1:04:39

on hundreds of years. Why does

1:04:41

it cost, what's the millions? Because,

1:04:43

because, there you go. Massive, look

1:04:45

at that. Out of it, massive.

1:04:47

Yep, and see. Well that was

1:04:49

cancelled because of COVID. It came

1:04:51

back and it's been canceled again

1:04:53

now, but it is, it is

1:04:55

wonderful. Nothing like it in the

1:04:58

world. and it's just been going

1:05:00

for hundreds of years and now

1:05:02

I don't think they'll ever come

1:05:04

back and it's not because it's

1:05:06

not because 250,000 people don't want

1:05:08

to turn up there they do

1:05:10

it's because oh it's even got

1:05:12

a vicar seriously on Sunday morning

1:05:14

there's a church service it's extraordinary

1:05:16

place accidents happen injuries happen people

1:05:18

get sick people die its life

1:05:20

It's... or death in that case.

1:05:22

Yeah, our death will, yes, I

1:05:24

thought I've just... This world we've

1:05:26

got to, where everything starts, would

1:05:28

know... And I go back to

1:05:30

the responsibility. Nobody's prepared to take

1:05:32

responsibility. Even if you want to,

1:05:34

they don't... want you to. As

1:05:36

I say, the precautionary principle, oh

1:05:38

no we can't do that, but

1:05:40

why not? I'd like to. I'd

1:05:42

like to. I'd give it a

1:05:44

try. It might go wrong, but

1:05:46

I'll give it a try. Oh

1:05:48

no, no, no, no. You can't

1:05:50

have the responsibility to give it

1:05:52

a try, because it might go

1:05:54

wrong. Let me ask you about

1:05:56

something with regard to the EU,

1:05:58

and tell me if I've got

1:06:00

this correct. they're head off, European

1:06:02

head offices in Ireland, but they

1:06:04

broke tax harmonisation rules, they offer

1:06:06

tax incentives, and the problem with

1:06:08

that is, is that they, across

1:06:10

the EU, they didn't want that

1:06:12

different countries to compete on corporation

1:06:14

tax. Correct. Which my assumption is,

1:06:16

is because they take part of

1:06:18

that tax, I'm not sure, but

1:06:20

either ways, don't we want nation

1:06:22

states competing for business? and offer

1:06:24

in low attacks because it makes

1:06:26

them more competitive. Whenever the EU

1:06:28

produced a document about this, it

1:06:30

would describe, and it was always

1:06:32

a harmful tax competition. Yeah, no,

1:06:34

over what? That's like a... You

1:06:36

couldn't have the words tax competition.

1:06:38

Yeah, Apple. Without the word harmful

1:06:40

put in front of it. Well,

1:06:42

far on con. So Apple told

1:06:44

to pay, so they actually find

1:06:46

Apple 13 billion. They meant to

1:06:49

pay it to Ireland. Island didn't

1:06:51

want the money. they wanted the

1:06:53

jobs there so Apple has been

1:06:55

ordered when was this is 2024

1:06:57

oh it's recent yes but basically

1:06:59

there you have the commission the

1:07:01

Ireland basically said don't pay we

1:07:03

don't want this tax because we

1:07:05

want you to invest here yeah

1:07:07

and the EU has gone to

1:07:09

Apple and said you must pay

1:07:11

what we think you should have

1:07:13

paid in tax yeah so Ireland

1:07:15

didn't want it I'll just read

1:07:17

it so that people listen September

1:07:19

24 Apple has been ordered to

1:07:21

pay Ireland 13 billion euros in

1:07:23

unpaid taxes by Europe's stock core,

1:07:25

putting it into an eight-year row,

1:07:27

European commissioners' cues Ireland to give

1:07:29

it Apple illegal tax advantages in

1:07:31

2016, but Ireland has considered you

1:07:33

against the need for the tax

1:07:35

to be paid. The Irish government...

1:07:37

said it would respect the ruling.

1:07:39

Apple said it was disappointed by

1:07:41

the saying, well, but a separate

1:07:43

European court of justice ruling on

1:07:45

Tuesday also brought a long running

1:07:47

case with Google to a close

1:07:49

with the company ordered to pay

1:07:51

2.4 billion euros a fine for

1:07:53

market dominance abuse. I mean, this

1:07:55

stuff to me is nuts because

1:07:57

it used Mr Reagan earlier. Reagan

1:07:59

said every single tax that exists

1:08:01

is a tax on working people.

1:08:03

It doesn't matter if there's no

1:08:05

such thing really as a business

1:08:07

tax. It's like this national insurance

1:08:09

rise, it's a tax on working

1:08:11

people. Every single tax was a

1:08:13

tax on working people. So this

1:08:15

is a tax on working people.

1:08:17

They're creating jobs in Ireland, an

1:08:19

opportunity, Apple is doing that, and

1:08:21

the EU is against this. That

1:08:23

was not. Oh yeah, I mean

1:08:25

this is... I know why you've

1:08:27

brought that up, because I always

1:08:29

bring this up as my other

1:08:31

favourite thing about the EU that

1:08:33

every month. Yeah, for three... So

1:08:35

if people don't know this... because

1:08:37

of some agreement when the EU

1:08:40

was established you probably know better

1:08:42

than me that the European Parliament

1:08:44

spends 140 million a year to

1:08:46

move everyone from Belgium to Strasbourg

1:08:48

for three days is it four

1:08:50

days they put everything in lorries

1:08:52

and boxes they ship it down

1:08:54

have a couple of trunks these

1:08:56

failure trunks It gets there, sends

1:08:58

it off and then on Monday

1:09:00

there they are outside your office

1:09:02

on Monday. Which isn't just a

1:09:04

misallocation of capital, it's a misallocation

1:09:06

of time and resources. That is

1:09:08

mad. Absolutely. So these are the

1:09:10

two things that make me think

1:09:12

the EU is just an absolute

1:09:14

nuts waste of time. There have

1:09:16

been there have been a trumps

1:09:18

to reform that and but the

1:09:20

treaty says no. What we're lucky,

1:09:22

what you don't know is there's

1:09:24

another European Parliament building in Luxembourg

1:09:26

but they decided not to use

1:09:28

that one as well. You've got

1:09:30

the chamber there. But fortunately they've

1:09:32

stopped using that. When you were

1:09:34

there, how mad was it? It

1:09:36

does. Okay. Now it was great

1:09:38

in some ways. Okay. Good fun.

1:09:40

I'm not going to deny it

1:09:42

was fun. It was quite fun

1:09:44

going to Strasbourg. He had a

1:09:46

great night's out because he was

1:09:48

like being, you were working, but

1:09:50

it was like... You're always staying

1:09:52

at hotels. In Brussels, I had

1:09:54

a home. In Strasbourg, you're always

1:09:56

staying at hotels, so there's something,

1:09:58

it's much more like the holiday.

1:10:00

I've had business friends, you go

1:10:02

to business trips with friends, you

1:10:04

go to business trip a few

1:10:06

days, but you go to the

1:10:08

same place, so you get to

1:10:10

know the restaurants, you get to

1:10:12

know the bars, you're not cooking

1:10:14

at home, you have to go

1:10:16

out, because they don't live there.

1:10:18

And so therefore it becomes quite,

1:10:20

it's quite fun. I'm not going

1:10:22

to pretend otherwise. It's crackers, it

1:10:24

shouldn't be the case, but I'm

1:10:26

not going to say that I

1:10:28

didn't enjoy going to Strasbourg, I

1:10:31

did. Is there anything that you

1:10:33

did you think, actually, that was

1:10:35

good? It's like the other question,

1:10:37

I asked these other question of

1:10:39

people at the moment, I go,

1:10:41

yeah, we get to start talking

1:10:43

about politics and I'm very, I'm

1:10:45

very, yeah, I'm small government guy,

1:10:47

and they talk about defending government

1:10:49

apologies. Just name me something over

1:10:51

the last 20 years has got

1:10:53

better because of government and they're

1:10:55

like they're just like you down

1:10:57

they're like no no no no

1:10:59

no no I think in its

1:11:01

original instance the idea that you

1:11:03

bring the island still in cold

1:11:05

agreement the idea that you bring

1:11:07

certain countries together so that they

1:11:09

can't go to war with each

1:11:11

other you make the you you

1:11:13

you tie things up and not

1:11:15

to stop going to or after

1:11:17

after the horrors of the Second

1:11:19

World War. Yes, that wasn't a

1:11:21

bad idea, but that was quite

1:11:23

a long time ago. There may

1:11:25

well be some regulations that we

1:11:27

would pass anyhow. We don't need

1:11:29

them as you pass by year,

1:11:31

but we would have passed them

1:11:33

anyhow. There are a clean air

1:11:35

act and things of this sort.

1:11:37

There are things that it... Okay,

1:11:39

they weren't bad, but we could

1:11:41

have passed them in our part.

1:11:43

We're quite capable of passing this

1:11:45

legislation without needing it to be

1:11:47

done by our friends on the

1:11:49

continent. Is everything it's done wrong?

1:11:51

No. But did it need to

1:11:53

do it at all? Different question.

1:11:55

See, what's really been interesting... since,

1:11:57

obviously Nigel campaigned hard for Brexit,

1:11:59

and then since Brexit, which has

1:12:01

been seen as a bit of

1:12:03

a failure, and I think Brexit

1:12:05

itself was tough to negotiate, but

1:12:07

whatever, we don't need to get

1:12:09

into that. But a lot of

1:12:11

people point at Nigel and say,

1:12:13

you're responsible for the failure of

1:12:15

Brexit, but he campaigned for Brexit,

1:12:17

he wasn't in charge of execution.

1:12:19

It was explicitly excluded. It was

1:12:22

explicitly excluded. It's the biggest mistake

1:12:24

the Tory party ever made. 2016

1:12:26

should have given him a peerage.

1:12:28

She'd given him a peerage, as

1:12:30

he probably deserved, given what he'd

1:12:32

done to achieve Brexit. Even if

1:12:34

you don't approve of Brexit, you've

1:12:36

got to recognise the sheer work

1:12:38

that he'd put in to make

1:12:40

it happen and there's a bunch

1:12:42

of people in the House of

1:12:44

Lords that you do wonder whether

1:12:46

they should have ever done anything

1:12:48

worthwhile. There's no doubt that he

1:12:50

had. If they'd given him a

1:12:52

peerage in 2016, which they didn't

1:12:54

out a spite. He

1:12:56

couldn't have created the Brexit Party.

1:12:58

He could have created a form.

1:13:00

Can you imagine him doing it

1:13:03

from the House of Lords? Yeah,

1:13:05

it's bad enough, having it, it's

1:13:07

a cursed armour. But, sort of,

1:13:09

the Lord Farage, going out to

1:13:12

Clactyl and standing on his stump

1:13:14

and doing his stuff, nah, it

1:13:16

wasn't work, would it? So if

1:13:18

they had done the right thing,

1:13:21

which was given a period in

1:13:23

2016, and he'd have accepted it.

1:13:25

he couldn't have done the Brexit

1:13:27

Party, there's no, he couldn't have

1:13:29

done reform. So yeah, that was

1:13:32

a big, big, big mistake. What

1:13:34

do you think of off-com? I

1:13:36

would like to get all these

1:13:38

power of government organisations put them

1:13:41

in a large pot and float

1:13:43

them out to see. I think

1:13:45

they're pointless, irrelevant. I understand sentencing

1:13:47

council. It's just turned around the

1:13:50

government, said, don't care. Oh is

1:13:52

this the tier? We're going to

1:13:54

have two tier justice. Yeah, two

1:13:56

tier justice. Because the Tories said

1:13:59

we could, and you said, and

1:14:01

now you're saying we can't. Well

1:14:03

we can, because you've given us

1:14:05

the power to tell you to

1:14:08

sod off. No, the whole lot

1:14:10

of that power. governmental state has

1:14:12

to be torn up and thrown

1:14:14

away. Isn't that weird, the sentencing

1:14:17

council put that out there? Expecting,

1:14:19

well actually they kind of have

1:14:21

got to pass, I mean a

1:14:23

few people kicked up a fuss

1:14:26

when it came out. Hold on.

1:14:28

The Tories, Justice Minister, sentencing, the

1:14:30

minister responsible for sentencing applauded it,

1:14:32

said well done, said well done.

1:14:35

Genric stands up and goes ooh

1:14:37

it's dreadful. It's actually you guys

1:14:39

that did it by the way,

1:14:41

but hey, but you're right, it

1:14:43

is dreadful. The minister, Mahmoud, stands

1:14:46

up and said, this is dreadful.

1:14:48

And the sentencing council turned around

1:14:50

and said, sod off. You've given

1:14:52

us the authority, we're going to

1:14:55

do what the hell we want.

1:14:57

Hello, democracy? Democracy, please. Can we

1:14:59

have the government making decisions, not

1:15:01

a bunch of superannuated old toads

1:15:04

who've been given way too much

1:15:06

power and not enough sense? And

1:15:08

that's the same across the power

1:15:10

of governmental organisations. Forget the word

1:15:13

Krango. This is the deep state,

1:15:15

let's trust us about. I suppose,

1:15:17

but it's, but off-com, off-gen, off-what,

1:15:19

off-start, off-gir, off-gir, the office for,

1:15:22

is generally ghastly. It's stuffed full

1:15:24

of career civil servants, people on

1:15:26

the take, the sort of the

1:15:28

public sector grift, grift, that is...

1:15:31

that is holding the country back,

1:15:33

stifling innovation, stifling thoughts, stifling growth,

1:15:35

stifling everything that makes this country

1:15:37

worthwhile. So now the whole lot,

1:15:40

cut off at source. But it

1:15:42

means, that means that your parliamentarians

1:15:44

have to step up and do

1:15:46

their job. That means those elected

1:15:49

have to work harder because they

1:15:51

cannot blame. One of the great

1:15:53

things for politicians about being in

1:15:55

the European Union. was British politicians

1:15:58

could turn to the election and

1:16:00

go, not awful is there's nasty

1:16:02

people in Brussels. And the people

1:16:04

of Brussels said, no it's not

1:16:06

our fault, it's your guys back

1:16:09

in Westminster. And the poor, benighted

1:16:11

elector is saying, who do I

1:16:13

blame? Or if it goes right,

1:16:15

who do I congratulate? And getting

1:16:18

rid of Brussels has meant that

1:16:20

we blame and congratulate the people

1:16:22

who are responsible, the people we've

1:16:24

elected, which means that we're responsible.

1:16:27

Actually, it is our fault. We

1:16:29

get the government we vote for.

1:16:31

And if we vote for a

1:16:33

shower, then expect to get wet.

1:16:36

But that's quasi-state. If the minister

1:16:38

responsible for sentencing cannot change the

1:16:40

sentencing guidelines, what's going on? How

1:16:42

does the electorate do anything? How

1:16:45

can the electorate say, I want

1:16:47

this to change? Because if democracy

1:16:49

doesn't do it, what can? Well,

1:16:51

the media haven't done a good

1:16:54

enough job. The

1:16:56

traditional media. This has been

1:16:58

done in part with their

1:17:00

cheerleading. Think of, think of,

1:17:02

I don't care if you're

1:17:04

a lockdown sketching or not,

1:17:06

but think of lockdown. The

1:17:08

media were cheering for stronger,

1:17:10

harder, faster, louder, worse, lock

1:17:12

everybody in the homes, nail

1:17:14

their door shut. Anybody who

1:17:16

suggested anything. They should be

1:17:18

barred, they're saying you have

1:17:21

people on the box, Peter

1:17:23

Morgan saying they should be

1:17:25

locked up, but the media

1:17:27

became worse than the politicians.

1:17:29

Cheerleading for autocracy, which is

1:17:31

very strange. So it is

1:17:33

no surprise that they miss

1:17:35

a lot. Also, I mean,

1:17:37

the fact is, is that

1:17:39

as people's information, where they

1:17:41

get their information from changes,

1:17:43

The media organizations have stripped,

1:17:45

if you talk to journalists,

1:17:47

you'll find that the news

1:17:49

budget for the time... has

1:17:51

just been cut again. But

1:17:53

it's all right, sport isn't

1:17:55

losing any in nor in

1:17:57

fashion. And it's circuses, isn't

1:17:59

it? It's bread and circuses.

1:18:01

The local newspapers have been

1:18:03

stripped, you're down to two,

1:18:05

three, four journalists per newspaper.

1:18:07

They don't have time to

1:18:09

go to the courts and

1:18:11

follow the small corruption cases

1:18:13

that's going on in the

1:18:15

local council, which don't have

1:18:17

the bodies. They don't have

1:18:19

the people, so therefore we

1:18:21

the people are left ignorant

1:18:23

as what's going on in

1:18:25

our name. But it's open

1:18:27

up, oh look, we're three

1:18:29

people, we can do this.

1:18:31

And so therefore you have

1:18:33

now, you now have increasing

1:18:35

numbers. So the news is

1:18:37

no longer coming from the

1:18:39

legacy media, the mainstream media.

1:18:41

It still has a place.

1:18:44

I think it really, it

1:18:46

does still have a place.

1:18:48

There's a, there is a

1:18:50

comprehension of certain sort of

1:18:52

values, but it is increasing

1:18:54

and rightly challenged. by a

1:18:56

more modern, probably quicker-witted, less

1:18:58

hidebound, unregulated, unregulated, but and

1:19:00

so on and so on

1:19:02

and so forth. I do

1:19:04

worry they'll come after us.

1:19:06

Offcom will try and regulate

1:19:08

us. Of course we'll, because

1:19:10

they don't like your grit.

1:19:12

They've got a nice shiny

1:19:14

surface and you're grit. God,

1:19:16

do you imagine, Fofcom try

1:19:18

to regulate us? But you

1:19:20

and... and many other people

1:19:22

like it. Yeah. Some of

1:19:24

the YouTubeers and all the

1:19:26

rest of it, I know.

1:19:28

But I think that they

1:19:30

will try, I think they'll

1:19:32

find it very hard. They

1:19:34

will certainly try. And the

1:19:36

online harms bill can be

1:19:38

used to bend into you

1:19:40

and things of this or

1:19:42

there is. That's the start

1:19:44

of it. Oh yeah. Oh

1:19:46

yeah. There is without doubt

1:19:48

a move from big government.

1:19:50

to push in, you've got

1:19:52

the EU regulation or online

1:19:54

regulations that have forced Apple

1:19:56

to do. whatever they're doing,

1:19:58

the government is now demanding

1:20:00

the back end of your

1:20:02

phone to be open to

1:20:05

them. Privacy is being questioned

1:20:07

and we go back to

1:20:09

the central banking digital currencies

1:20:11

and facial recognition technology and

1:20:13

Palantir and oh boy we

1:20:15

are actually living in some

1:20:17

dystopian horror show and it's

1:20:19

going to get worse. It's

1:20:21

becoming the Panoptican. Yeah, the

1:20:23

Panoptican state. Yeah. And that's

1:20:25

what we... And it is.

1:20:27

It is. We are the

1:20:29

most... filmed people on

1:20:31

earth aren't we? I think more

1:20:33

than China? Even more than China.

1:20:35

Wow. Yeah it's it is crack

1:20:37

us. We just walked down the

1:20:40

street how many times you filmed.

1:20:42

Oh but it's for your safety?

1:20:44

Tis, really? No, no. Because have

1:20:46

you noticed how there's so much

1:20:48

so far fewer crimes, far less

1:20:51

violence, far less people getting done

1:20:53

over? And I tell you what,

1:20:55

if it wasn't for those cameras...

1:20:58

Hold on, it doesn't make a

1:21:00

blind bit of difference. Doesn't make

1:21:02

a blind bit of difference. The

1:21:04

preponderance of all the surveillance does

1:21:06

not make a jot of difference.

1:21:08

We are seeing crime go through

1:21:10

the roof. Well, it doesn't stop

1:21:12

crime. It helps when there is

1:21:14

some crime. It certainly... It helps.

1:21:16

It helps... Identify criminals at times.

1:21:19

Yes, when they can be asked

1:21:21

to bother. I bother. Oh, I'm

1:21:23

sorry. We're too busy. Well, that

1:21:25

is another problem. A massive problem.

1:21:27

Whether one likes or not, and

1:21:29

it's an uncomfortable fact and truth,

1:21:31

mass migration is a significant part

1:21:33

of that. I don't know if

1:21:35

you saw the response that came

1:21:37

out yesterday. I did, I saw

1:21:39

Matt Goodwin. Yes, he tweeted it.

1:21:41

He tweeted the four charts of

1:21:43

who's responsible for crime. Utterly terror.

1:21:45

Yeah, my only thing on that,

1:21:47

the question I have, and this

1:21:49

isn't a defense of it at

1:21:51

all, but I wonder if that's

1:21:53

the case in every country you

1:21:56

go to that. immigrants are more

1:21:58

likely to go to school's crime,

1:22:00

yeah. The guy's like Robert Bates

1:22:02

has been pushing it and working

1:22:04

on this. He's had to F-O-I,

1:22:06

the Justice Department, this, that, da-da-da-da-da-da.

1:22:08

We used to collate these figures

1:22:10

into the roundabout of 2016. Yeah,

1:22:12

I'll just probably stop. Yeah, here

1:22:14

we go. Just so people know

1:22:16

what we're talking about. Look at

1:22:18

this chart, this is why politicians

1:22:20

state don't want to share the

1:22:22

data with you, the accused of

1:22:24

misinformation, while hiding information like this

1:22:26

is only when they're forced to

1:22:28

release it, do we get to

1:22:30

see the reality. Hold on per

1:22:33

10,000 population of criminals, that's the

1:22:35

10,000 crimes, right? No, no. per

1:22:37

10,000 people. How many committing? There

1:22:39

are 4,000 crimes if you're Albanian.

1:22:41

There's a reason for the Albanians.

1:22:43

Oh no, it looks like that

1:22:45

number has up to 10,000. No,

1:22:47

no. You've got 10,000 Brits, 136,000.

1:22:49

For 10,000 Libyans, 6,000. For 10,000

1:22:51

Libyans, 602. Oh, okay. They literally

1:22:53

came here to operate within the

1:22:55

criminal acts of... acts. So it

1:22:57

is no surprise that almost half

1:22:59

of Albanian in this country have

1:23:01

been arrested because that's literally what

1:23:03

they came here to do. So

1:23:05

for some perspective, 4,000 and 28

1:23:07

Albanians per 10,000, you got the

1:23:10

way down to the UK, it's

1:23:12

136, and then you've got, yeah,

1:23:14

I think there are 87 countries

1:23:16

whose populations in the UK can

1:23:18

make more crimes than British citizens.

1:23:20

I think it's 82. Who are

1:23:22

the good ones up? No, no,

1:23:24

but it's probably Australians and Canadians

1:23:26

and things of this sort in

1:23:28

Dane. Yeah, I mean, yeah, obviously

1:23:30

this is, there were actually four

1:23:32

charts, but I think this one,

1:23:34

because it's the overall, the Albanian

1:23:36

number is out of kilter, mainly

1:23:38

because so many people who came

1:23:40

from Albania literally came to run

1:23:42

our drug train. Yeah, the sexual

1:23:44

offences one was... It's terrifying. Yeah,

1:23:47

it's terrifying as well. up to

1:23:49

one in four sexual offences committed

1:23:51

by migrants and I think they're

1:23:53

9% of the population. So 25%

1:23:55

to nine. Yeah. It becomes a

1:23:57

challenging... Yeah, there you go. So

1:23:59

10,000 sexual offences, Afghanistan is the

1:24:01

highest, it's Eritrean and maybe all

1:24:03

the way down to the UK

1:24:05

which is a blip time. Yeah,

1:24:07

and so it just shows that

1:24:09

we will, we are having an

1:24:11

increase in crime. because of migration

1:24:13

is significant increase in crime. The

1:24:15

thing is, I think it was

1:24:17

104,000 crimes committed by foreign nationals,

1:24:19

not foreign born, foreign nationals over

1:24:21

the last three years. I was

1:24:24

with the guy who did it

1:24:26

on the box last night, so

1:24:28

we had debates about it. There

1:24:30

are some people who committed more

1:24:32

than one, and we charged him

1:24:34

convictions. But you got to remember.

1:24:36

That's pretty much every single one

1:24:38

of these I'm not yeah pretty

1:24:40

much every single one of these

1:24:42

means if they're sexual crimes if

1:24:44

they're This is a life screwed.

1:24:46

Yeah, it's not just you're a

1:24:48

criminal think of the impact you've

1:24:50

had on this the rest of

1:24:52

society It's not just you're a

1:24:54

bad guy, but your bad kindness

1:24:56

has devastated a family the devastated

1:24:58

a life That's why it's so

1:25:01

serious. I personally and this is

1:25:03

something, and going back to what

1:25:05

we were talking earlier, Rupert wants

1:25:07

to deport all illegal migrants, and

1:25:09

this idea that Nigel Dustin's, well

1:25:11

we certainly want to support anybody

1:25:13

who's committed a crime. If you're

1:25:15

a foreign nationally committed crime, don't

1:25:17

get out. Oh, ETR will stop

1:25:19

you. Well, this is part of

1:25:21

the problem. And the Tories are

1:25:23

shilly shining about that. Labour aren't

1:25:25

going to get rid of it.

1:25:27

Why do you think... Look, there

1:25:29

are people I could put this

1:25:31

conversation in, I could send this

1:25:33

segment, and they're going to be

1:25:35

very uncomfortable about this bit. They're

1:25:37

not going to want to have

1:25:40

the conversation. They're not going to

1:25:42

want to admit that there is

1:25:44

a significant rise in sexual crimes,

1:25:46

percentages from people from people who

1:25:48

are foreign. nationals or migrants who've

1:25:50

come in. They don't want to

1:25:52

have this conversation or want to

1:25:54

avoid it. What is the problem?

1:25:56

We're just saying, look, these are

1:25:58

the numbers, let's deal with this.

1:26:00

Because people want the world to

1:26:02

be fluffy and nice. They want

1:26:04

it to be great and lovely

1:26:06

and everybody gets along come by

1:26:08

bloody R. But it isn't. And

1:26:10

it's a bit like the Trump

1:26:12

business. Trump is just going, right,

1:26:14

forget the last 30 years of

1:26:17

foreign policy by cuddle. and by

1:26:19

virtue of signaling tweet. What matters

1:26:21

is power and money. What matters

1:26:23

is facts. Remember, don't bring me

1:26:25

opinions, bring me facts from Thatcher.

1:26:27

What matters is facts. Facts aren't

1:26:29

racist. They just aren't. That sort

1:26:31

of statistic is not a racist

1:26:33

statistic. It's just how it is.

1:26:35

I was listening to this, I

1:26:37

mentioned before, this Musk interview with,

1:26:39

with Rogan, and they were talking

1:26:41

about AI, and the reason he

1:26:43

created Grok, and the reason he

1:26:45

created Grok is because a lot

1:26:47

of the, a lot of the

1:26:49

AIs are woke, they got woke

1:26:51

models, and he said, the thing

1:26:54

about Grok is, he said, it

1:26:56

will tell you the truth even

1:26:58

if it's uncomfortable. It will tell

1:27:00

you the truth, even if it's

1:27:02

uncomfortable, there are people fact-checkinging Musk

1:27:04

with Grok. It doesn't benefit Musk

1:27:06

but he allows it out there

1:27:08

because he wants honest he wants

1:27:10

the truth and I think the

1:27:12

one that really showed up the

1:27:14

the dodgy AI was show me

1:27:16

a picture of a Viking and

1:27:18

a black woman turns up yeah

1:27:20

well this is what they this

1:27:22

is what they talked about I

1:27:24

haven't seen the founding fathers he

1:27:26

said it was a diverse black

1:27:28

woman yeah but then they played

1:27:31

it against them they said they'll

1:27:33

show me a Nazi SS soldier

1:27:35

and they came black as well

1:27:37

yeah yeah and that that opened

1:27:39

it all it all up but

1:27:41

you know I think this is

1:27:43

the world that I'm accepting we're

1:27:45

going into is that it's that

1:27:47

we've got to forget all this

1:27:49

nonsense for the last two decades

1:27:51

this bullshit we've got to get

1:27:53

real yeah and I think again

1:27:55

going back to the purpose of

1:27:57

being in this room yeah I

1:27:59

think people are looking to reform

1:28:01

to be that corrective. It doesn't

1:28:03

mean that it's going to be

1:28:05

nice. It's not going to be

1:28:08

as cuddly as we'd like it

1:28:10

to be. We all want to

1:28:12

be nice. Of course we do.

1:28:14

But I'm somebody and it's quite

1:28:16

interesting. It's something I've always believed

1:28:18

that one has concentric circles of

1:28:20

care. And Vance touched on it

1:28:22

and reforms through-word slogan. We've got

1:28:24

to have a three-word slogan. But

1:28:26

Reforms three-word slogan also touched it.

1:28:28

I... And do you remember, though,

1:28:30

after Vance made some comment about

1:28:32

this, about the idea that one

1:28:34

cares for your closest and then?

1:28:36

Yeah, yeah, and he had the

1:28:38

five. We've always shared it. The

1:28:40

three... well, I called the concentric

1:28:42

circles of care. I care about

1:28:45

my family, my friends, my town,

1:28:47

my county, my England, and then

1:28:49

the UK, and then it sort

1:28:51

of drops off a bit. I

1:28:53

wish nobody any ill, any ill,

1:28:55

any harm. whatsoever. The rest of

1:28:57

the world I have no... Okay,

1:28:59

the French. But apart from the

1:29:01

French, I have no animal against

1:29:03

anybody whatsoever. I don't really have

1:29:05

an animus against them. But, um...

1:29:07

I shouldn't call. But the... And

1:29:09

then Roy Stewart said it's his

1:29:11

rubbish. So Rory, you've got a

1:29:13

child. Do you care more about

1:29:15

that child or somebody from Ulambato?

1:29:17

They're both starving. Who'd you give

1:29:19

the cake to? Of course he

1:29:22

has to. And to pretend. that

1:29:24

one has a big enough heart to

1:29:26

love the whole world, you're lying to

1:29:29

yourself and to the rest of the

1:29:31

world. It's just not true. It's not

1:29:33

how human nature works. And so I

1:29:35

think the reform sort of family community

1:29:38

country strikes an absolute chord with very