0:03

Everyone's very afraid of being hacked

0:05

and unless you understand the underlying

0:07

security in all of your accounts,

0:09

you're going to have trouble not

0:11

knowing whether these claims by a

0:13

robocall are real. Hello

0:15

you crazy Bitcoiners. Hope you're doing well. Hope you

0:17

had a great weekend. I'm going

0:20

to be heading off to the airport soon. I'll

0:23

be flying out to New York. If you're in New York,

0:25

I'll probably be at Pubkey tonight or tomorrow, grabbing

0:27

a beer with my boy Thomas and then I will

0:29

be heading out to Austin, Texas for consensus and then

0:32

from there flying out to Norway. I've got the

0:34

Oslo Freedom Forum. It's going to

0:36

be a busy couple of weeks. Also this weekend we

0:39

had our final football match. It was yesterday, the

0:41

ladies in the League Cup final and they won it 4-2. So

0:44

that's it. The football season is done.

0:46

Railbeth and ladies won a historic treble and

0:49

the Railbeth and men's team won a double

0:51

five trophies. Pretty incredible season to be honest.

0:54

What a haul. We're

0:57

already at work on next season. It's going to be harder.

0:59

We're going to try and do it again. All right. Welcome

1:02

to the What Bitcoin Did podcast which is brought

1:04

to you by the absolute legends of Iren, formerly

1:06

known as Iris Energy. Iren is

1:08

using their next generation data centers to

1:10

power the future of Bitcoin mining and

1:13

AI using 100% renewable energy. Iren

1:15

remains the same business with the same goals. Now

1:18

we're just with a different name. I'm your

1:20

host Peter McCormack and today we

1:22

have got some show for you. All

1:25

right. A few days ago, Jun Seth

1:27

received a scam call for someone

1:29

claiming to be from Google. This person

1:32

was socially engineering Jun Seth while

1:34

trying to in the hopes of phishing

1:36

some information like exchange logins

1:38

or private keys. But

1:40

Jun Seth, he knows what he's doing

1:42

right. So he led the hacker on and

1:44

ended up recording this fascinating interview with him.

1:46

Now he posted this to his SoundCloud but

1:49

it was removed after someone copyright claimed it

1:51

for an obscene hip hop song that wasn't

1:53

even played. So to make sure this got

1:55

out there and also to use a recording

1:57

as a bit of a public service announcement.

2:00

and make sure people know what to look

2:02

out for. We decided to release a call and interview

2:04

Jintsef as we worked through it. Do you know, I

2:06

even found out one thing myself. Found

2:08

out that my authenticator codes were being

2:11

sent and stored on

2:13

Google Drive, which I immediately changed

2:15

the settings for. So if you're

2:17

like me and you've done the same, please do go and

2:19

check them out. Do not store your backup

2:22

codes on the Google Cloud. All right, I

2:24

hope you enjoy this one. I know you

2:26

will. It's an unbelievable show. It's just nuts.

2:29

Big shout out to producer, American

2:31

Hoddle, whose idea was to do

2:33

the whole thing. If you want to hit

2:36

me up, you can reach out as hello at whatbitcoindid.com. Thanks,

2:43

Jintsef. All right, so let me give

2:45

some background. You went viral. I

2:47

did go viral. And

2:50

really it was the easiest virality job

2:52

I've ever done. Can

2:55

I just fucking say, I

2:58

saw it going round and I was like, what is this? I'll

3:00

check it out later. But so many people shared, I was like,

3:02

okay, I've got to listen to this. What is that? And when

3:04

I was listening to this, I was like, this

3:07

can't be real. Oh, it's real. I

3:09

know. When you

3:11

first start listening to it, and I know I'm not the

3:13

only one, I thought, hold on, this

3:16

can't be real. But then

3:18

I realized by your questioning that

3:20

this is really real. And

3:23

it was fortunate that you got something that was

3:25

willing just to so openly talk about it. What

3:29

I couldn't tell is what the bits I believed them

3:31

on and what are the bits I didn't believe them

3:34

on. Because they're kind of, like if

3:36

you started to run the math of some of the things he

3:38

was saying, it didn't all add up. So

3:40

let me tell you some, I think

3:42

for the benefit of your audience before listening. Some

3:45

of the bits have been confirmed, right? So for example, he

3:47

claims that they have a $1.2 million Bitcoin

3:50

transaction at Swann that

3:52

they're waiting for. That's been

3:54

confirmed by Swann. So Swann saw that. So we

3:56

know that there's some things that he said in

3:58

here that are true. There are things in here

4:00

that I think are, I think, I think 100% of the things he says are

4:05

true in a sense. So for

4:07

example, he says that he just bought a McLaren.

4:09

I don't think he did. I

4:11

think that, yeah, I think he may live

4:13

with his parents. He may not. He

4:16

may like live on his own at college. I don't know. But

4:18

I think he aspires to have a McLaren and is

4:20

doing the thing where he's speaking it into the universe.

4:23

And he believes that he'll very soon have a McLaren

4:25

as if he and I met, I wouldn't be able

4:27

to be like, I thought you had a McLaren. But

4:30

if we met, he'd be able to be like,

4:32

this is the McLaren I purchased with my ill-gotten

4:34

gains. Actually, can we go back a

4:36

step further? Anyone

4:39

who's listening who hasn't heard the

4:41

audio, because it got paused. We should probably explain what

4:43

it is. Explain

4:45

what happened that led

4:47

to me reporting this. Yeah. I got a

4:49

call from, I mean, we all get these

4:51

calls in Bitcoin. But if you're old, you

4:53

also get them. A lot of

4:56

people, you get scam calls if you're young.

4:58

The famous one is the, hi, I'm calling

5:00

about your vehicle's lease insurance or whatever the

5:02

hell it is, right? We've all gotten

5:04

that one. It's a joke. And

5:07

so I've been getting these calls in Bitcoin.

5:11

And they've been going on for maybe a year and a half,

5:13

maybe as many as two years. And

5:15

I always, always answer. And

5:18

I came up with this about two years ago. I was going

5:20

to try, whenever they started, I was going

5:22

to try to answer them and see if I could get one

5:26

or two of these people to answer

5:28

some questions. And they call me so often, I

5:30

figured I'd get the opportunity. And

5:33

so I just started kind of like working on

5:36

different things to say to them, to

5:38

keep them on the phone. So you hear a

5:40

bunch of that at the very beginning, where I insult him and

5:43

a few other things. And the reason this

5:45

was interesting to me is because the call that I was getting

5:47

were all, they all sounded like Americans. So

5:49

for a while, a lot of the scams,

5:51

you get a call, I am Eric from

5:53

New York. And you'd be like, oh, yeah,

5:55

Eric, from New York? How are

5:57

you? How's the temperature up there? very

6:00

warm here in New York. And you're like, it's winter. Oh, yeah,

6:03

very cold, you know. So like,

6:05

you'd end up with this, you

6:07

had these non Americans calling you. And these

6:10

ones, every single one of them, they're all

6:12

American. And it was a very particular call,

6:14

you'd get a call, they would say, you'd

6:16

be like a radio or a robot saying

6:18

like, our recording, I'm, you know,

6:21

this is this is Google, and

6:23

your password attempt is being

6:25

changed. If this is not you, please

6:27

press one, you press one. And then

6:29

somebody would say, someone will be in touch,

6:31

you know, in whatever time, and then within

6:33

a few hours, you get a call. That's

6:36

a really cold. Yeah. filter out.

6:38

Well, they're qualifying you and they say it

6:40

on here, they'll explain. Anyone

6:43

who hits one is an idiot. And

6:45

that's not really true. It's I don't think that's

6:47

quite fair. Because, you know,

6:50

there's a lot of everyone's afraid of being hacked.

6:52

There's a lot of ways that I think we

6:54

can talk about this in terms of security. And

6:57

we should actually talk about how you can kind of protect yourself

6:59

from this. But there's a lot

7:01

everyone's very afraid of being hacked.

7:03

And unless you understand the underlying

7:06

security in all of your accounts,

7:08

you're going to have trouble not knowing whether

7:10

these these claims by a robo call or

7:12

real, did my Microsoft account really get hacked

7:14

in my Coinbase account really get hacked in

7:17

my Google account really get hacked? The

7:19

answer is it may have right. And

7:22

that's why it's so scary. So you don't have to

7:24

be an idiot, I think to hit one, you might

7:26

actually genuinely be concerned that you were hacked because so

7:28

many people do end up getting hacked. So

7:31

I think we'll talk a little bit about security later.

7:33

The guy on the

7:35

call gives us some great advice to Bitcoiners. And

7:37

we'll go through that if he's like explaining how

7:39

to avoid getting but but

7:41

really, it's it's very difficult, particularly if

7:43

you're a nervous person, don't understand how

7:45

security works, don't understand how Bitcoin works

7:48

for you to, to avoid being trapped

7:50

in these at some point. So you're,

7:53

you know, I, I think,

7:55

I think that there's just a lot like this is why

7:57

I think in investment, people say you

7:59

should not invest in things you don't

8:01

understand. In Bitcoin, it's especially true

8:03

in instances like this because if you

8:05

don't understand how Bitcoin works, it's

8:08

really easy to tell you that I'm about

8:10

to take your Bitcoin and you may believe it. Okay,

8:13

so you posted this where? I

8:16

just put this on my old podcast,

8:18

Eric John Seth's World. And

8:20

yeah, it got pulled, SoundCloud pulled it

8:23

down because somebody, we don't know who,

8:25

claimed that it was a copyright strike against from that

8:27

rapper that no one's ever heard of. But

8:31

was there any rap music in it? No, it

8:33

was just me and the guy talking. And this

8:36

is, I mean, this is a critique of the

8:38

current regime when it comes to things like copyright

8:40

striking, YouTube, SoundCloud, all these

8:42

companies are very afraid of copyright. It's

8:45

interesting because copyright infringement really is

8:47

an act that you're claiming against

8:49

the publisher which would be, you know, me. But

8:52

for some reason, these companies have taken a very

8:54

hard line against it. So if you even claim that

8:56

there's copyrighted material and they just

8:58

take it down and then they leave it to you

9:00

to prove that you're innocent, which is a very frustrating

9:02

thing. And not only that,

9:05

as part of, in SoundCloud's instance,

9:07

part of declaring your innocence

9:09

is you have to give them like your home

9:12

address and everything else. And it says right on

9:14

there, this will be provided to the person making

9:16

the copyright claim. And

9:19

so listen, I probably have a copyright claim against this. Let's

9:21

not say who we think it is. Let's

9:23

not give them any retention. Let's just go

9:25

with it. Oh,

9:27

from the beginning, let's go to the beginning. So

9:30

I'm gonna play this. Providing

9:32

that email address as well as that common password.

9:35

If you're adding a 10th version, the number on the account.

9:38

But since the location was unusual,

9:40

then it's based on an automatic hold. Well,

9:43

thank you, David. Well,

9:46

we're gonna go ahead and do today. If we catch up

9:48

with a temporary password for the next 48 hours, one

9:50

of us will fully go over everything. And

9:53

that's gonna be sent to the number ending in 4-1-5-1. Do

9:57

you currently have access to that number? I

9:59

do. Okay, perfect.

10:01

So just let me know once you do receive

10:03

that. Okay. I

10:05

got it. You got it? Mm hmm. Okay,

10:09

perfect. It's going to be

10:11

active here in the next one to two

10:13

minutes, but I'm going to go ahead and

10:15

do as well update the ATI PMA calendar

10:17

to ensure even more safety. I want to

10:19

do that. May I ask, how's

10:21

your day today? Very well, you. I'm

10:23

good. All right. Let me go ahead and process. Okay.

10:26

All right.

10:29

Let me go ahead and process here for you. So for

10:31

48 hours, you're going to go ahead and use the task

10:33

that that would send to you. And

10:35

after this 40 hours are up, you'll also receive

10:37

an email kind of going over the attempt as

10:40

well as informing you that you are able to

10:42

change your password. Okay.

10:44

And this is going to be sent

10:46

over to jun.step at email.com. Okay.

10:53

Okay. Perfect. So if you could go ahead

10:56

and navigate over to your phone and you

10:58

see the notification for account security. Did you

11:00

get that? I did. You

11:03

did it? I did. Oh,

11:06

you did? Okay. Perfect. Go ahead and

11:08

tap on that and it should say

11:10

account recovery. Correct? Mm hmm.

11:13

Okay. Perfect. You're going to want to do yes.

11:15

And 53. Just let me know when that's done.

11:18

I have one quick question, Caleb. I

11:21

know what questions coming next. We'll do that in a

11:23

second. So do you want to explain the nature of

11:26

the hack? What he does, like part of it

11:28

is clearly sounding

11:31

official, making sure

11:34

you feel reassured in the password, since your

11:36

phone, yada, yada. See, but what, how does

11:39

the attack work? So a lot of what a lot

11:41

of what they're doing is using Google's infrastructure to get

11:43

to you. So like if you go to Google and

11:46

you type in forgot password, it'll just let you kind

11:49

of attempt to change your password, right? So they're

11:51

just going in there, they're doing that. And then

11:53

they're basically getting you to confirm to Google that

11:55

you asked for a password change, right? And,

11:57

and then they'll change it for you to whatever they want. And

12:02

then they'll take it to you. Yeah,

12:04

yeah. Or something

12:06

like that. But they're doing very, very,

12:08

very simple sort of means of

12:10

accessing your Google account. You're giving it to

12:13

them. You're basically opening the door and walking

12:15

them through it. You're holding their hand. And

12:17

they're just stepping you through it, making you think.

12:20

It's a trust game. They're making, it's

12:22

sort of an affinity scam, but affinity scams usually are

12:24

longer and more complicated. This is just like, he's your

12:26

friend. You know you can trust him, because he's from

12:29

Google. And you know he's from Google, mainly because he's

12:31

very nice. So if you catch what he says to

12:33

me, he says, how's your day going? You know, it's

12:35

like, it's just like this delay tactic. You know, if

12:38

like you're on the phone with somebody, it's

12:40

clear this person has gone through customer service

12:42

training. And where else would he receive customer

12:44

service training, but from a legitimate company like

12:47

Google? And what I've noticed too,

12:49

in trying to get people to stay on. So the

12:51

reason that I go through the beginning of the scam

12:53

is because I want them to

12:55

be invested. This is something I noticed when I was

12:57

doing this, if I didn't get them to

12:59

invest and feel like they'd already wasted time

13:01

on me, I was never able to

13:04

get them to stay on the phone. So the first thing

13:06

I do is I go as far down the scam as

13:08

I can until like they realize something's wrong. And

13:10

if I stop sending

13:12

them stuff, they're gonna know right away that maybe

13:14

I'm not worth it, maybe I'm stupid, you know,

13:16

maybe I don't have enough to

13:18

jump on. Or maybe

13:21

I don't have enough to actually like do the stuff that

13:23

I need to do in order to get this going. And

13:25

so like- Well, how many times did you try to record

13:27

one of these and get

13:29

them to talk? Dozens, dozens. Oh, that's

13:31

a good one. And I've gotten some

13:33

of the way, usually I get them

13:36

to bragging about how much money they

13:38

make. And then

13:40

usually I can't get them to tell me that

13:42

they're in America. And then from that, like

13:45

then it kind of just goes, it derails.

13:47

But this one didn't derail. But

13:49

yeah, dozens. And this, I try to record every

13:51

time, but often they'll call and I'm

13:53

not at a computer or something like that. So

13:55

that can be frustrating. This one he called, I

13:57

was at a computer, but I didn't have recordings.

14:00

software. So I googled very quickly record

14:02

online or something like that and found like

14:04

a software that I just record on. And

14:08

it worked. I couldn't believe it. So I just

14:10

I hit record, and it just started recording. And

14:13

I'm going to jump around a bit. But

14:15

is there any part of this that you're

14:17

reporting him to authorities? Are you sending the

14:19

recording? Is there anything they can

14:21

do with that? I have no idea. You

14:24

don't bother him with that? I mean, every it

14:26

seems like when something like this happens, I had

14:28

probably half a dozen people reach out and

14:30

tell me that they had FBI contacts. And

14:33

to varying degrees, I mean, like I said, I was

14:36

willing to do it as long as like, you know,

14:38

it's it's sent through a lawyer. Okay.

14:42

So is this scam, they convince you, they

14:45

do a forgotten password, they

14:47

phone you up and say someone's trying to

14:49

attack your into your account, you

14:51

check your email, say, Oh, there is a forgotten password,

14:54

they text you a new password. And

14:57

you type that into the change

14:59

password page or or they may have you they

15:02

may they may actually have I mean, there's there's

15:04

a few you'll see in this, they say one

15:06

of the things they do is they spoof a

15:08

page for treasure. But I wouldn't be surprised. Like

15:10

I remember back, if you recall back when bit

15:14

with Tony Gallipi's company bit pay

15:16

was hacked. This

15:19

was a very simple social engineering hack that happened

15:21

with Tony. And the reason I know this is

15:23

because we were caught up in it too. Right.

15:25

So the way that that one worked was they

15:27

would send you an email from like one of

15:29

these people. And they would say, here's

15:31

the Google link to the Google Drive that we're working

15:33

on, you go there and be surprised like, oh, weird.

15:36

Usually I'm logged in, but I'm not logged in. So you just

15:38

like go in there and log in with

15:40

your Google credentials. And then it wouldn't log you

15:43

in, it would just send you to Google Drive.

15:45

And if you were already logged into Google, it

15:47

would just look like you logged in, right? But

15:49

now you sent your because you were on j

15:51

o zero gl.com or something like that. Now

15:54

you've given someone else your password and your username, and

15:56

they can log right into your Google. So my guess

15:58

is what they do is they they probably

16:00

send you a link and do that exact same

16:02

thing. You type in your link and

16:05

it probably then sends you to Google, and

16:07

it's like, oh, link didn't work, but now

16:09

they have your password info. With

16:12

that, they're then going to take over

16:14

your email account, and they're going to

16:16

what? They just start searching.

16:19

Yeah. It sounds like some people said that they've had this

16:22

happen, and they see them running a script. I don't know

16:24

exactly how they would see them running a script, but my

16:27

guess is they probably have a

16:29

script that searches for the seed

16:32

word template, and sees if there's anything in

16:34

your email that has seed words, or

16:36

if there's anything in your email that has

16:38

logins to your database, or whatever,

16:40

and then they're going to start resetting passwords, a Coinbase,

16:43

a Kraken, and any other of the exchanges that

16:45

you have, and they'll just start

16:47

logging in. If you have bank credentials at

16:50

Coinbase, that one thing they could do is

16:53

they could buy Bitcoin with your money and

16:55

then export it out. Or if

16:57

you don't have bank credentials, if you have coins sitting

16:59

there in Coinbase, they're just going to export those out

17:01

right away. They're going to do all the confirmations for

17:03

you. But they need to find accounts that

17:05

don't have 2FA, right? Probably,

17:08

but it depends on how stupid people

17:10

are. You could do the same hack

17:12

with people and do it with 2FA.

17:16

How do you do with 2FA? Are you

17:18

convincing them to give you the 2FA number

17:20

over the phone? Sure. Just say that you're

17:22

from Coinbase and you're whatever. It

17:24

depends on the sophistication of the person. It

17:27

depends. If you're a scammer, you're going to go

17:29

down these roads. I

17:31

can conceive of how these scams work more than

17:33

I can. I haven't walked all the way down

17:35

the path. If I had a

17:37

fake Coinbase account that would allow Coinbase to, I don't

17:39

know, grab IPs and stuff like that, or would allow

17:41

us to see that stuff, that would be really interesting.

17:43

I think Coinbase should have that, where they

17:45

have fake Bitcoin in there, get people to go in,

17:47

see exactly what they do, and

17:50

just allow a person to fuck

17:52

with scammers, but they don't.

17:54

That would be really interesting. But

17:57

yeah, I think that a lot of this stuff is

17:59

very... is very simple

18:01

and it really depends on the sophistication of the

18:03

person that is dealing with it. Yeah,

18:07

and look there's going to be a

18:09

lot of unsophisticated people like even today,

18:11

right? So my son is sophisticated, you

18:14

know, he's grown up with

18:16

technology. He understands technology Today

18:19

we were trying to get into his he

18:22

needed to check an email for something I

18:24

set him up with Dashlane, but Dashlane

18:27

has his own password and he's forgotten

18:29

his Dashlane password And therefore

18:31

he couldn't get into his email and he couldn't

18:33

do his forgotten password from Dashlane Because

18:36

he couldn't get into his email and so

18:38

he hadn't figured out the loop to prevent

18:40

that happening So even my son who's fairly

18:43

sophisticated. I had to actually show him how

18:45

to So I

18:47

basically had to reset his password from Google G

18:49

Suite and then actually help him log

18:51

back into those accounts I

18:53

know my father's sophistication. I

18:56

know my sister's I can see

18:58

scenarios where You know, we

19:00

may like some people may mock people were getting

19:02

done, but like we live in this world all

19:04

day every day We know what's going on. I

19:06

got an email from a friend in the space

19:09

who's phenomenally wealthy phenomenally like

19:12

more money than than you could dream

19:14

of in most lives ever obtaining and

19:17

It's it's from not Bitcoin, right? This is a person

19:19

that was wealthy when they came and And

19:23

this person told me that their mother Had

19:26

had her her coins stolen right which

19:28

you know, their mother is not as

19:30

wealthy as they are but But

19:33

you know had a few coins to her name and

19:35

had gotten caught up in one of these cases You know,

19:37

their mother's not gonna know how security works on computers and

19:40

such, you know, she's an older lady So

19:42

it's not just about you. It's about the fact

19:44

that like these older people often get targeted They

19:46

don't know what's going on. They've heard about hacks

19:48

if you've if you've owned a company You

19:51

know how it works like you get calls from people who've had

19:53

their their credit cards compromised and

19:55

if they're 87 They're like, you're the

19:57

one company that I spent, you know money on and blah

19:59

blah blah They're like, yeah, but everything that

20:01

we do is in Stripe. And Stripe hasn't told us

20:03

that there's a hack. And even if there is, you

20:05

can get your money back. No

20:08

one here has stolen your credit card. We don't even know the

20:10

number. We use a token. We don't store

20:12

it anywhere. Something like that. But these people don't, they're older,

20:14

they don't know how it works. They only know that credit

20:16

card theft is a thing. They know

20:18

that hacks are a thing. And so they're

20:20

susceptible to these types of scams. And

20:23

it's very difficult to explain to an older person

20:25

who really doesn't know how this works. And it's

20:27

kind of been introduced into this world, where before

20:29

they were using phones, rotary phones and phones on

20:31

their wall, that

20:33

this is how to secure themselves

20:36

and why they are secure in

20:38

those, if they

20:40

do things like have a very long password

20:42

or whatever. So it's

20:44

very difficult. It's very hard. Yeah.

20:48

So interesting. I've had lots of the

20:50

emails pop up in my inbox. Like

20:53

someone's tried to attend to reset

20:55

your Facebook password, someone's got all

20:57

these different Instagram, Google. I've

21:00

never had the only scam

21:02

call I've ever had was a bank one. It

21:04

was a Revolut one. And I nearly got caught. It

21:06

was really interesting. It was nearly got caught

21:09

with it. I was actually out

21:11

near you. I was out in Miami when

21:13

it happened. And it just clicked at one

21:15

point. I was like, oh, hold on a second. Because

21:17

they did a lot of things that

21:20

sent me to the Revolut website to

21:22

make me think they were real. And

21:26

I think I was less probably skeptical

21:28

because it was my bank rather than trying to

21:30

get into my crypto. Turned out it

21:32

was a, you know, I got just a bit suspicious.

21:35

The Quarmic banks was Revolut. Yeah,

21:38

I think I've said that publicly anyway, because they're the

21:40

only ones who let you buy Bitcoin. But that sounds

21:42

like you were targeted. No,

21:44

no, no, no. That was a random chance that you

21:46

just got a revenue. It was

21:49

a Revolut scam. Oh, I saw I went online

21:51

and found out it was a Revolut scam. But

21:54

we don't have the phone

21:57

issue that you have where the Sims.

22:00

issue. Like I don't know anyone who's been since

22:02

walked in the UK might have happened, but

22:04

I don't know of it. Well, okay. So there's, I

22:07

got caught in one and it

22:09

was, uh, I got a call once from a

22:11

guy who said that they had my

22:13

sister in the back of a van. Jesus.

22:17

And it was, they had like a recording of a

22:19

woman struggling. You know, they had some details that they

22:21

happened to, I mean, they were just going down the

22:23

path and like saying things like, we talked to her

22:25

boyfriend and he's not going to pay to get her

22:27

out. And I was like, she does have a boyfriend

22:30

and I don't know what he said. And so

22:32

I, like, I had someone next to me and

22:35

I was like, you know, I put them on mute. I

22:37

was like, just call these numbers. I was having them call

22:39

numbers. And, um, my

22:41

sister was an air force cadet and

22:43

was at the air force academy. And

22:45

I apparently, I mean, I

22:47

didn't know I did this, but I shut down the air

22:50

force academy for like, for like an hour and a half.

22:52

As they like, they, they like shut everything down to make

22:54

sure that they could find her as,

22:56

uh, as this call was going on. And

22:58

I remember as soon as we got word that she was like, not

23:01

in California, but was in Colorado safe

23:03

on base. Um, I just hung up,

23:06

but I didn't know, you know, cause so there's,

23:08

there's a lot of things like if, if they

23:10

get the details right, if you happen to be

23:12

the right person that they're calling for the, you

23:14

know, these specific details, like you happen to have

23:16

a Revolut bank account and it's a Revolut scam.

23:18

Um, you know, they might've called 500 people before

23:20

you all banking with some other company Wells Fargo

23:23

or, uh, some weird,

23:25

uh, fake money bank in, in

23:27

the UK, whatever the case is.

23:30

Um, but like, if you happen to have that bank,

23:32

then like you might be the perfect person for it.

23:34

Cause they might have the 15 details that you,

23:36

and then by the way, that's what's genius

23:39

about this scam in particular is they're qualifying

23:41

people. So you're hitting one, which means that

23:43

you have a Google account. It

23:45

means that you are probably

23:47

afraid that, uh, something's going

23:49

on. You're unsophisticated cause you don't know. You can

23:51

just go on Google and change your password. Um,

23:54

you don't know that you can actually go look

23:56

at logs in Google. It tells you every time

23:58

someone's tried to access the account. You

24:00

can go look at the bottom. There's a little list of

24:02

locations that people have access. So you

24:04

don't know these things, so you hit one.

24:06

So now you're on the path. They

24:09

know that they've got a person who's got at least like 5% or

24:11

15 or 20, maybe 80% of the details that

24:15

they're gonna start telling them are gonna

24:17

be convincing to that person. It's a really sophisticated

24:19

way to do this. I

24:21

see it's very rare, in my opinion, that

24:23

scammers have figured out how to qualify people.

24:26

Yeah, interesting. Okay, should we jump back into this? I

24:29

know the question is coming next. Do it. All

24:31

right. Yep.

24:34

Hello, my name's Daniel. Daniel, I'm sorry, what's your last

24:36

name? Valer.

24:39

Valer, Daniel. Does your mother know that you

24:41

scam people for a living? I

24:44

don't know. Calling them,

24:46

trying to change their passwords. You know, you don't

24:49

work for Google. Google isn't my info. It

24:52

seems like I can go out and shoot you over an email, kind

24:54

of confirming. Oh, yeah, go ahead, send me an email, Daniel, please. It'll

24:58

be directly from a Google domain as well.

25:00

Oh, wow. Go ahead. Uh-huh, you're gonna spoof

25:02

it, huh? There's

25:05

no way to spoof at google.com. You can't spoof

25:07

a header? Google owning

25:09

it. Daniel, you're

25:12

an evil person. Your mom

25:14

is disappointed. Trying

25:18

to take credit. You made a hundred

25:20

grand, huh? It

25:22

was pretty nice. From old people or from whom? No,

25:25

he was like 40. One

25:28

guy who was 40, are you a fag? I'm

25:31

not a fag. Actually, I just got my

25:33

dicks, like, before this call. By a guy?

25:36

Today I'm thinking I wanna make around like

25:38

60K today. Daniel, where you live? You live

25:40

in America? So real quick, Peter, Paul. Of

25:42

course. But what I've noticed when I've

25:45

done these calls, when I ask

25:47

them if their mother knows, I don't know why. But

25:49

every time I do that, I get the response with

25:51

how much they've made. You

25:53

bait them. I bait them, they give it to me. And

25:57

then I don't know why, But all of these

25:59

guys, if I can... Accused him of

26:01

being gay. Replace the they

26:03

always they leave circling the

26:05

sensors. And. I and

26:07

then the other thing that's crucial. like if

26:09

you're going to do something like this, if

26:11

you're into the lights. Social Engineer. A social

26:13

engineer saying things that are wrong. Always.

26:16

Did some to explain the right answer. So with

26:18

the google thing I don't know how they're doing

26:20

the google spoofing I just dollars you could spoofing

26:22

email. I say it to them and if he

26:24

confirms of them sure than we have an answer.

26:26

But like what happens in these calls as if

26:28

you say something wrong The responses to be a

26:30

fish you fucking idiot. Let me tell you how

26:32

it actually happened the limits as they divulge everything

26:34

they hear me do in a couple times in

26:36

the car. just say things that are wrong and

26:38

they just a speech spills. Here

26:41

is it was really interesting moment

26:43

because his first attempt to lose.

26:46

To. To give it's like to cancel his

26:48

answer and then he starts to lose it.

26:51

And. You know he's done. He definitely

26:53

didn't get a blow job. Just before he

26:55

said that they might have been obvious that

26:58

he didn't he didn't He deftly the he

27:00

may never have on Amy I'm army those

27:02

are some worked at age nine a blow

27:04

job first this know as as he learned

27:06

on that but nevertheless litter. Size

27:08

and your podcast before you make all of your guess if

27:11

you blow job in for the governor. Is

27:13

it's. Still,

27:16

A whiskey Brass given will whiskey mm yeah

27:18

of it becomes the top of the sound.

27:22

Effects of we Need Old Feeble to

27:24

listen to this episode. We need my

27:26

desolate swimming. Com be

27:28

listening to stuff about Rodgers. Visually, I

27:30

knew the uncensored version. Skeptically

27:33

scammers uncensored right? Anyway, back

27:35

in out in California. In.

27:40

Iowa where where where income for

27:42

San Francisco. Hussein

27:45

has to set. Up

27:48

is a saying yes to shed. Some

27:53

light on why does his job I want? I

27:55

want this job. Something

27:58

up. I.

28:01

Point out when dinner and you

28:03

know you to find it all

28:05

and you know for example, like

28:07

money and crypto right? I

28:10

would never into it. But

28:13

I'm saying what I already know that

28:15

you do game at the my part

28:17

of us. This is interesting thing right?

28:19

So the movies. He bought some data

28:21

from somewhere. Whole. Dot.

28:24

A dumb some investigators walk to figure

28:26

out who you are. I see mobile

28:28

data and I'm I'm a Martin I can

28:30

tell you I would construct this list

28:32

is very easy. And it's not

28:34

worth two hundred fifty thousand and does you could get it.

28:37

I'm but the way that I would do

28:39

it is on the dark web and in

28:41

a lot of forums. A lot of these

28:43

hacks and of getting leaked right. You can

28:45

bible the database and or the first and

28:47

most importantly is probably the ledger. Odd

28:50

Duck. And all that

28:52

was available to every big revenue was on

28:54

Reddit says you couldn't do it was a

28:56

wind and it's every single be cleaner their

28:59

name other email I think it might have

29:01

had addresses and phone numbers. It.

29:03

Was just a huge act. And so

29:05

think about this. oh it's you. get that

29:07

hack as everyone in bitcoin an animal Twenty

29:09

six team I think. Was

29:12

with a million names, tons of miss.

29:14

The. Mcqueen be so he always has a

29:16

queen bass guitar for someone gets hacked or

29:18

a data breach happened somewhere else a couple

29:20

years later and then a twenty eighteen another

29:23

breach happens or twenty nineteen maybe twenty twenty

29:25

one of them a chance and and what

29:27

you're doing as you can correlate all of

29:29

these lists and see who's who's on multiple

29:31

and if they been in a in bitcoin

29:34

censor certain you know maybe the ledger hack

29:36

and then if continue dab accounts in these

29:38

places you can basically will done your list

29:40

and you could sell hundred thousand names of

29:42

people that have been a bitcoin for four.

29:44

Five six years. Maybe have a couple of

29:46

the accounts on a cup or on a

29:49

couple of by exchanges and you can. you

29:51

can infer from that. They have maybe a

29:53

little bit more bitcoin than your average person,

29:55

and what's really interesting thing is you'll hear

29:57

it later. the way that

29:59

because think is in Bitcoin, right? So if

30:02

I say to you, I have one Bitcoin,

30:04

it's not going to

30:06

be very impressive. You're going to

30:08

be like, yeah, one. Okay. But

30:10

these kids, their mind has their

30:13

mind thinks of Bitcoin in US dollars.

30:15

They're not Bitcoiners, right? So

30:17

at some point, he brags to me, he's like, I have 1.2

30:19

Bitcoin on my phone. It's like $100,000. And he's right. That's

30:24

what it is. It's a lot of money. $100,000 is a lot of money. It's

30:27

a hundred thousand, especially when you're a kid. But

30:30

like, like to a Bitcoin, it's

30:32

like 1.2. 1.2. Really?

30:35

Wow. But to them, it's a

30:37

lot. So when they think of whales, they're not they're

30:39

not looking for people with like 100 Bitcoin.

30:42

They're looking like they look at like a guy

30:44

with one Bitcoin as a target. So

30:46

the matter I mean, like scammers go after people

30:48

with like $10,000. These guys, you have one Bitcoin,

30:51

that's 65k today. What a score. That's a

30:56

great score. So, you know, I

30:58

think I think our definition of whale,

31:00

our understanding of who's targeted, particularly in

31:02

Bitcoin needs to change, because it's

31:05

people with one Bitcoin, half of

31:07

Bitcoin that are susceptible to people

31:09

with 25% of a Bitcoin are

31:12

susceptible to this now, because 15k

31:14

is a good score. 10k is a

31:16

good score. Yeah. And

31:18

when you say it like that, there's

31:21

going to be plenty of people with 10

31:23

to 15k in Bitcoin, who maybe have never

31:25

listened to a Bitcoin podcast, never

31:27

read a Bitcoin article, they've just heard

31:29

a bit about Bitcoin, they've opened a

31:31

Coinbase account, maybe they've seen the advert

31:33

in the Super Bowl,

31:36

and they bought a bit and forgotten about

31:38

it. Like, people like you and me are

31:41

very skeptical. Anyone who phones me up, I mean, I

31:43

very rarely pick up a phone call where isn't a

31:45

number I know. And if I do, someone starts asking

31:47

me questions like, see you later. I'm ready. I'm done.

31:49

Fuck off. And so there's

31:53

going to be a big pool of people

31:55

who can be easily targeted, who just aren't

31:57

thinking with that adversarial, everyone's a

31:59

scammer mindset. that. Yeah.

32:01

All right. Let's listen to

32:03

what's his name, David, Daniel, David. Oh, and if

32:05

you notice, I also call him the wrong name.

32:08

I was trying to see how committed he was

32:10

to the name. And if you would,

32:12

if you would change it or what, because like,

32:15

to me, it was interesting that he insisted that I call

32:17

I think was Daniel, Daniel Fowler. And

32:20

it was interesting that he remembered the name. It

32:23

shows that he's picked an identity, he's

32:25

sticking to it. And he understands, I

32:27

think the importance of like really seeming

32:29

legitimate. He's trying to really portray legitimacy.

32:32

And, and catches me when I call him Caleb, I

32:34

call him a completely different name, I thought that maybe

32:36

he would like just go with it. But

32:39

he didn't get test. Got it. Like,

32:41

kind of like, you know, who has money in

32:43

crypto, right? You ring them up. And once you

32:45

hack their Gmail, you can literally just

32:47

log into because you think they're Google

32:49

authenticators and stuff. You can

32:51

log into Coinbase, Kraken, once

32:55

you have the email, you can log into their Google

32:57

authenticator. Um, so this

32:59

has been a thing that a lot of people have

33:01

talked about Google off, by default, I

33:03

believe stores it to the Google cloud. So

33:06

if if you don't want that to be

33:08

the case, you have to turn that option off, I think it's

33:10

default. So this is a

33:12

big like Jamison Lop was talking about

33:14

this. It's a big security concern. Because

33:16

once once you do this, if

33:19

you have Google off, and it's up to it's in

33:21

the cloud, then yeah, I think they can basically

33:23

get into your Google off. If you're

33:25

going to go my Google authenticator open

33:27

because the little green, yeah, little

33:29

green cloud is green. You want to turn that

33:31

off. Hack Peter

33:33

now you got 10 seconds. He

33:35

just every time I press it just says they are being

33:37

saved to it. You don't want that. I

33:40

do this with like even phones or anything

33:42

else. Like when my if my family's on

33:44

the phone plan, and they go to

33:46

you know, the phone store,

33:48

and they try to change their phones. If

33:51

they can't, I'm very complimentary to the person behind

33:54

the desk. I'm like, thank you. Thank you for

33:56

making that so hard. Yeah,

33:58

so I'm not and it's to say that delete. done so that's

34:00

gone. Right, so what's interesting is I've upgraded.

34:02

How did you do that, Peter? How did

34:04

you go to settings? Yeah,

34:07

so you click on your profile photo, and

34:09

you click on use without an account. So

34:13

anyone doing that, because I had it before,

34:15

right, when I've upgraded my phone, and

34:20

my Google Authenticator, it's all reset. And

34:22

it was an absolute nightmare. And I had

34:25

to go through every single place where I

34:27

have it, I had to go through the

34:29

entire process of getting new code. The reality

34:31

by the way, but the reality that was

34:33

like two to three hours, and totally worth it.

34:36

The reality is that you should be using

34:38

a password app of some sort, maybe

34:42

multiple. And you

34:45

should do the off the off and that. That's,

34:48

that's my advice. Maybe

34:51

it's bad advice. But that's, that's what I would,

34:53

that's what I would say you should do. But

34:55

hold on, you can't get what do you mean

34:57

save the backup codes to a dash lane or

34:59

a one pass in one pass, or in dash

35:01

lane, I believe dash lane, I know one pass

35:03

has it. They have a

35:05

QR code reader. So like, yeah, when someone when you

35:08

go in to do the two factor off, you can

35:10

actually set it up in that account. And

35:12

there's there's people I know that use to they'll use dash

35:14

lane and one pass or something like that. Or

35:17

they'll do bit defender, and

35:19

one pass or something. And they'll

35:21

save the two off in one and the

35:23

other one, the password and the other depends

35:25

on how like granular you want to get.

35:27

But presumably, if, if

35:29

you separate them, and there's a breach of one,

35:31

then your data is secured. But like, Bitcoiners are

35:33

crazy when it comes to this stuff. So like,

35:35

that's not necessarily what everyone has to do. But

35:37

if you're really wanting to be secure, there's just

35:39

a lot of things that you can do that

35:42

that make this secure,

35:44

but very inconvenient, the more security you

35:46

have, the more inconvenience you're going to

35:48

have. And that's a feature, not a

35:50

bug. It really is. Well, look,

35:52

I have that. So I've set myself up

35:54

to be as inconvenient as possible. Because I'm

35:56

so public as a Bitcoin, I have big

35:58

podcast, I have a team. And

36:02

I live in the UK. So if you own any company,

36:04

you can find your address easily. There was no way you

36:06

could get any Bitcoin if you come to my house. It's

36:08

just like an impossible thing. But at

36:10

the same time, somebody coming

36:13

doesn't know that, right? So

36:15

I was talking to Danny. I've got a conversation I want to

36:17

have with James and Lott saying, should I

36:19

just be totally public and completely explain

36:21

my Bitcoin security? This is

36:23

my multisig setup. I've got

36:25

keys in multiple countries. One

36:29

of them has to be released by a lawyer from

36:31

a lawyer's office. The process you need to go through

36:33

to get my Bitcoin, you're going to end up in

36:35

jail. Like you will, because you're going to have to

36:37

torture me and torture multiple people and get on planes.

36:39

You've got to know almost like a bit like, you

36:41

know, when you go to some stores, I'm saying stores

36:43

because you're American shops, it will

36:45

say no cash

36:47

is stored on these premises. Yeah,

36:50

same thing. No cash is

36:52

stored in Peter's house. There's

36:54

no Bitcoin, no Bitcoin keys are

36:56

stored on this house, right? Because

36:58

I, you can

37:00

have all the security protection in the world, you can't

37:02

protect yourself from a crazy person who torture you or

37:04

doesn't believe you. So like be

37:06

fucking public. This is what I do. I

37:09

am not taking any risk. You can

37:11

have the TV, take the TV, but

37:13

nothing else. There's nothing here. Well, a

37:15

lot of those security concerns are also

37:17

going to like be obviated as we

37:19

go along. Had

37:22

to pump it, but AnchorWatch, for example, there's

37:24

AnchorWatch is a good example of this. So

37:26

like working on like multi-sig

37:29

protection with sort of a corporate

37:31

backup. There's just like mini script

37:33

has really is going to change the way that a

37:35

lot of this stuff worked. And if they can

37:37

do scripting generally, like if Opcat or any of

37:39

these, these covenant type protocols are available, there's just

37:42

going to be a lot of really cool things

37:44

that are going to make it really difficult for

37:46

someone to steal your coins. And that'll

37:48

be good. That'll be really good. Yeah. All

37:51

right. Let's go back to this guy. We're

37:53

three and a half minutes in. There's going to be a 20 hour

37:55

interview. All

37:58

exchanges and just send it out. Fantastic.

38:00

Yeah. But did you, did you hire yourself then? Or

38:02

are you working for like a company? You like apply

38:04

for this? No,

38:06

no, no. Solo. Obviously.

38:09

There's no like company for hacking. I

38:13

mean, that's, it's a crazy job, dude. You guys call me

38:15

400 times a day. Really?

38:18

Yeah. Yeah. I'll

38:21

tell my friends to stop rerunning the same list. Very

38:24

nice of them. I'll like remove

38:26

you from it. Really? Yeah.

38:29

Why do you, why do you do it? Honestly,

38:35

dude, I mean like who doesn't want to

38:37

drive around McLarens and stuff? Like, like I

38:39

literally just got a McLaren, like at like

38:42

at a young, I'm not going to say my age, but I'm

38:44

young. You know what I mean? Like, are you really making a

38:46

hundred thousand dollars a day? No,

38:49

not a hundred thousand a day. How much you, how much do

38:51

you actually make? Okay. I

38:53

mean, I mean, I made 10 K yesterday.

38:56

They, before that I made 105, which was very nice. So

39:01

like I'm consistently, I think 10 K a day,

39:03

but consistent. By the way,

39:05

10 K a day is a good living. I

39:08

mean 3.6 million a year ish

39:10

around, you know, that's, that's pretty good.

39:13

So the, the, the most depressing part of

39:15

this for me is I'm obviously making

39:17

assumptions, but he

39:20

sounded well educated. Well,

39:24

I, I, it sounds like he is in or wants to go

39:26

to college. He's clearly getting

39:28

an education, like a real one.

39:30

Like his, his parents, he says are middle class and

39:33

that they're well adjusted. And then he had a great

39:35

childhood. So I assume that he's

39:37

just a normal kid who goes to school and that

39:40

he is not an idiot.

39:42

He's not blue. He's not blue collar. He wasn't

39:44

raised in a blue collar family, not to say

39:46

blue collar. People are idiots, but like he's not,

39:48

he's not, in

39:51

any way it sounds like his parents

39:53

are probably college educated. They're

39:55

probably they

40:00

probably send him to good

40:02

schools. And like he is very literate,

40:04

not just, you know, not like you

40:07

can read, but like, he's computer literate.

40:09

He, he plays Minecraft, that's kind of

40:11

the new Lego. And he's, he just

40:13

understands how to like navigate the

40:16

web, which is, you know,

40:18

more than I can say for myself, you

40:20

know, trying to get this, this podcast up

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43:01

feels like either like an older brother or a

43:03

buddy, as said. Listen, I'm on to

43:05

something. Do you want to get involved? Yeah.

43:08

And he says that. He says they all

43:10

met on Minecraft. And it sounds

43:12

like probably the oldest of them all started doing these

43:14

phone type things. And I don't know if they started

43:17

scamming, but they

43:19

started doing something and it was effective. And whenever

43:22

that ended, they moved into this. And I think

43:24

he said he's been doing it for three years

43:26

toward the end. So yeah.

43:29

So the things that don't make sense, I don't believe

43:31

he has a McLaren or two. I don't think he

43:33

could get away with having a McLaren parking his parents

43:35

parking. How'd you get that car? Yeah.

43:38

Yeah. Yeah. So

43:40

I don't believe I think you're pretty right. And I don't know if

43:42

he made a hundred and 5000 a few days ago. Maybe

43:45

he did. Maybe he did. Well,

43:47

a lot of this stuff is like expected income.

43:50

Yeah. So for example, with Swan,

43:53

Swan says that they found the transaction before

43:57

I reported it. Right.

44:00

I don't know if that's true, but let's

44:02

presume it is. That means that

44:04

there's probably- Take that presumption

44:06

from the point that certain withdrawals and

44:08

certain exchanges on-ramps, off-ramps, where

44:10

you hit a certain threshold, they

44:13

hold it. Almost certainly. They question you and they

44:15

get in touch. There's no well-worth swan. I mean,

44:17

they're a sponsor and I can't even confirm it

44:20

because I don't know this detail, but my assumption,

44:22

that would pass some kind of threshold. My presumption

44:24

is that swan actually did. But

44:27

I'm going to- who knows? I'm going to assume

44:29

it's true. I don't try to promote companies, so

44:31

I'm not going to say that swan does everything

44:33

right, but I'm also not going to denigrate them.

44:35

If they caught it, good on them.

44:38

That's a win for swan. Well done. But let's say

44:40

they caught it. That means

44:42

that he talks a little bit later about the $1.2 million

44:44

that they have coming from swan. That

44:46

means that they weren't going to get that. He was assuming

44:49

it was coming. He was waiting for it to come, and

44:51

it just never would have arrived. I

44:53

don't know what his actual income is, but my guess is that

44:55

50% to 60% of the transactions that

44:58

they do probably get caught. Which,

45:01

by the way, mate, is why people with $10,000 in Bitcoin are susceptible. Because

45:06

if you're withdrawing $10,000 in Bitcoin, a

45:08

lot of exchanges aren't going to check on that. But

45:11

they will check if it's $1.2 million. Yeah.

45:13

So why wouldn't you try and at least figure out the

45:15

threshold? We'd draw $1,000. The next day, we'd draw $5,000. Next

45:18

day, $10,000. Right. Although, there's

45:20

probably an email that goes out because a lot of these things

45:23

do email. But it's OK because you're in their emails. True.

45:26

But once you look, you might

45:28

only have two or three days within that email. I

45:30

don't realize, hold on, I can't get into my email.

45:32

And then you get back into your email and you

45:34

see these emails that are coming. But

45:38

I feel like... What

45:40

I would do, Peter, is I would do a

45:42

legitimate withdrawal to his address. And

45:45

then at the same time, another withdrawal to mine.

45:48

And so when they call him and they go,

45:50

hey, are you withdrawing? He goes, yep, yep, withdrawing.

45:53

And just waiting on the rest. Yeah.

45:57

Interesting. Yeah. I

46:00

mean, look, they might be just like, fuck it,

46:02

let's try. Let's try and get 1.2 million. Let's

46:05

do it. Let's see what happens and see if we get away

46:07

with it. But yeah, anyway, come on, let's

46:09

carry on. Let's fuck it. So you're making 300,000 a month. But

46:15

not including like, like, let's say I get a big hit.

46:18

One day I was gonna add, so like, some days

46:20

will be like 40, 50K. When

46:23

you say make, you mean like you're taking that

46:25

much out of someone's account and

46:28

putting it into yours. What's

46:31

the Bitcoin, Ethereum majority? What's the?

46:35

It depends on the type of

46:37

example, we just hit something the

46:39

other day, it was like 900K. I

46:42

only got like 100K from it because so

46:44

many of my friends had to help me. 900K?

46:50

Yeah, it's kind of ridiculous how

46:52

like people just give up their speed phrases

46:54

and just like, I don't know, like, like,

46:56

how are you that into crypto, right? You

46:59

know how like, everything works.

47:01

You obviously invest massive amounts of money

47:03

into it and they still give up

47:05

code, speed phrases, all that like, like,

47:08

what? So I have a

47:10

question with regards to this guy. One of the

47:13

things about moving crypto Bitcoin is

47:15

that you can track a lot of it. And

47:18

so my gut instinct

47:20

is that he doesn't really

47:23

have that much Bitcoin or crypto. I

47:25

think he, my

47:28

assumption is this is going to a central

47:30

person, whoever their Mr. Big is, who is

47:32

the person who is watching it turn into

47:34

Monero, whatever they're doing, and they're just paying

47:37

him out in fiat. That's

47:39

my assumption because otherwise, he has to

47:41

be sophisticated enough to be able to

47:43

watch that Bitcoin also sell it with

47:45

George bank account without anyone getting suspicious

47:47

and being 20 years old. I don't

47:49

know, crypto specializes people, right?

47:52

So the NC start moving into

47:54

Fiat, you start taking risks. So

47:56

what I'm guessing happens is

47:59

that there's a bunch of addresses that

48:01

they've generated, right, or something like

48:03

that. And these are the addresses that they have

48:05

to withdraw to, or something, right. And then I

48:07

think they do get paid when that guy gets

48:09

paid. And he says, I think he says 50%

48:11

or something. Or he may be

48:14

grabbing the money and the guy is, you know, he says,

48:16

like, if you don't pay me, X

48:18

amount minimum per month, but then if I see if I

48:20

if I find out that you're stealing from me, you're you're

48:22

cut off. You know, my guess is that

48:24

there's something some kind of arrangement like that. But I think

48:26

I think it stays in crypto. And

48:28

I don't know where it gets mixed. My guess it

48:31

sounds like they're using a lot of phone wallets. And

48:35

which is, you know, interesting. There's a lot of

48:37

phone wallets. And I think I think

48:39

that they're probably generating HD

48:41

wallets as a result, they don't even know what they're doing.

48:43

But I think that's probably what's going on. I

48:46

wonder if he sophisticated enough to not

48:48

get busted later on down the line

48:50

trying to sell it or convert it

48:52

into something. Not a chance. I think a lot

48:54

of these kids are just they're holding it and they say,

48:56

look, look at how much money I have. But it's in

48:58

crypto, you know, so they're not going to be able to

49:01

necessarily exchange it. Like, that's the thing, like if I if

49:03

I were getting paid in a bunch of

49:05

ripple, I don't think ripples going to be that

49:07

valuable ever. I think it's going

49:09

to decline in value forever, particularly against Bitcoin.

49:12

And I would I would love to get the fiat out of that.

49:14

But I don't think that they were going to be able to. So

49:16

like whatever it is that they're stealing from people, I think we'll take

49:19

whatever you have. And and I think

49:21

that a lot of what they're going to end up with

49:23

is probably these like tons of shit coins. Yeah,

49:26

maybe. But even if they've got some Bitcoin

49:28

and Bitcoin they stole, trying

49:32

to convert that into money they can spend on

49:34

big things, because you're doing this because you want

49:36

to buy a McLaren. Like,

49:39

how do you actually do that as a 20? The coins

49:41

into assets. You

49:45

got to find someone that'll take the coins in exchange for

49:47

a house in exchange for McLaren

49:49

exchange, whatever. And even at

49:51

that point, even for a house at that point,

49:54

like in the US, you have to fill out

49:56

a document if you spend. you've transferred 10k, you

49:58

know. I

50:00

want to know what the washing operation is.

50:02

Last one I wanna. Message.

50:05

Me on get that the next day of on file. Ask him.

50:08

As a bad. Price

50:11

pander infinite. It is because

50:13

people are definite. Again,

50:16

I. Said

50:18

you can show. Because. That

50:20

seems like the hardest part pm. How

50:23

far did all of our employed to

50:25

the actual money? You are You by

50:27

Mclaren with your crypto. How.

50:31

Offers off a lot of white.

50:34

People I know and like realized so

50:36

clearly. except. For. Cars.

50:39

Hell out of I can simply just fine cuppa.

50:42

But. On Are you mixing has Sickle? I

50:44

offer people that I can like some bank

50:46

account out of. I just because you tell

50:48

me. Or whatever.

50:50

mixing. I'm

50:53

I know what? What Are you Mcqueen and is. Or

50:56

something yet? At

51:00

the markers. Your. Whole that i them

51:02

are in a new while. it's like a big

51:04

a fresh while on a different device as a

51:06

D influence whatever fine after that is your outputs

51:09

are different. The bus. Fare.

51:11

So. I

51:14

am curious cause like new data

51:16

from can occur com I'm not gonna

51:19

like. I. Obviously can't do

51:21

anything now with rock engineering. A Back.

51:23

But. I'm quite curious how how much

51:25

do you have biden so my breath.

51:29

As they do, I would.

51:31

I won't say. No,

51:34

I got. You any is

51:36

dead is the wrong you are. You can have

51:38

me to the social engineering but. He

51:41

is your friends data as good. As

51:44

it is it it in. Oh

51:47

beautiful, beautiful food we got into.

51:49

I got into one point three

51:52

mil on the other day. it's

51:55

currently on up everyday ways so

51:57

where is the that on lock

51:59

emanuel get a nice little my

52:01

friend my friend called up on

52:04

some old guy in

52:06

his first call of the day he

52:08

called up the guy had 555

52:10

K in this coinbase right he said that he was

52:12

gonna get him

52:18

to ball Bitcoin like

52:21

like like

52:23

place it in CD balls and

52:26

he literally texted him the address and

52:29

said yeah this is going to fall and the guy sent

52:31

over 555 K by himself like what

52:34

why would you do that see

52:37

this is what's depressing you like

52:39

to say I'm guessing young well educated

52:41

and he's laughing about robbing an old

52:44

guy of his money he's clearly

52:46

this kind of reflection on the world that people

52:49

just don't give a fucking him he

52:51

doesn't think of himself as Jesse

52:54

James you know like this is a thing

52:56

like he's robbing the train

52:58

but you don't need guns anymore to do it right

53:01

so you know and

53:03

by the way this is

53:06

this is a big issue with Bitcoin

53:08

is the density right the density of value

53:11

you know you have a dollar right

53:13

like here's a dollar bill this

53:15

is one dollar this

53:18

big if I want a hundred dollars I have to

53:20

have a stack of these you know this tall if

53:23

I want a thousand dollars I need to stack this tall if

53:25

I want ten thousand I have to have

53:28

a stack you know beyond the size of

53:30

the screen gold

53:33

I can carry two thousand dollars and you know this

53:35

but I want a million dollars suddenly it's gonna be

53:37

a little bit harder Bitcoin

53:40

you can carry a billion dollars in on

53:44

the size of a paper or in your

53:46

head if you're if you're smart or

53:49

on a you know metal seed

53:51

phrase thing right so

53:53

like density of value is very different

53:55

and what's interesting is like in

53:59

some ways Bitcoin solves the problem,

54:01

and the Bitcoin solves this thing of

54:03

the train robbery, because you

54:06

don't need guns and

54:08

time to move the value, right?

54:10

So you can now non-violently rob

54:12

somebody. You

54:14

call them up, they give you

54:16

their money, they basically invite you inside their

54:18

house, and then they give you all the

54:20

time you need and all the tools you

54:22

need to rob them. And

54:25

the density of value is so

54:27

significant because they can just move it over wires. And

54:30

Bitcoin is digital, so its

54:32

density is zero. There's no

54:34

space that it takes, apart

54:37

from the microscopic place

54:40

where it lives on these chips. So

54:42

that, to me, is really an interesting

54:44

issue. And it changes the way that

54:46

we think about it, because think about

54:49

robbery in the sense of copyright.

54:51

The copyright, the

54:54

band thinks that you're stealing from them

54:57

when you download music, right?

54:59

But the reality is that we've always

55:01

viewed robbing as if I

55:03

have it, if I take your

55:06

chair, Peter, you no longer have the chair,

55:08

and I have the chair, right? So I've robbed you

55:11

of the opportunity and

55:13

the value of that object. But

55:16

with music, if you give me Britney

55:18

Spears' album, my favorite music in the

55:20

world, and you

55:23

give it to me on a CD, I

55:26

could put it in my CD player. We

55:28

don't have CDs anywhere, do we? But I can put it in my

55:30

CD player, and I can listen

55:32

to it, and I can have the whole neighborhood

55:35

listen to it, and we can all enjoy Britney

55:37

Spears' new album, and you can

55:39

continue to enjoy your copy of the album

55:42

without any degradation to you, apart from the time

55:44

that it took for you to

55:46

make me my copy. And

55:48

that's with this notion

55:50

of digital theft, you

55:53

have this change in what theft is, and

55:55

you have this change in mindset about what

55:57

theft is, and theft doesn't feel

55:59

like theft. anymore. And it's only

56:01

theft. And in the real world,

56:03

like in law, there are two types, there

56:05

are kind of these two types of crime.

56:07

There's the crime that is crime because it's

56:09

crime, right? Like we all know it's crime

56:11

murder. It's crime because it's crime. Like it

56:14

is so bad, was it

56:16

malum ad probrium or something out of these

56:18

Latin words for them. But then there's another

56:20

type of crime, which is a crime only

56:22

because the legislator has legislated the crime as

56:24

a crime. And in some

56:26

sense, that's kind of the difference here is that one

56:28

of them is obviously a crime, because I have deprived

56:30

you of something. And the other

56:32

one is a crime because the legislature has

56:35

said that this is analogous to crime. This

56:37

is analogous to theft. Because instead of me

56:40

depriving Peter of the chair, the notion is I've deprived

56:42

the artist of the money, even if I never would

56:44

have bought the album in the first place, except for

56:46

the fact that it was given to me as a

56:48

gift. So it's a different type of crime. And

56:51

with Bitcoin, it feels different

56:53

than robbing a train, because it's digital.

56:56

So it's analogous to robbing a train,

56:58

but it's not the same as robbing

57:00

a train. The difference is this is

57:02

old school theft, right? If

57:04

you have the Bitcoin, unlike all other

57:06

digital artifacts, and this is what makes

57:09

Bitcoin unique and actually gives it value.

57:11

Unlike all other digital artifacts, if I

57:13

take the coins from you, you

57:15

can no longer enjoy the benefit of having

57:17

them yourself. And I can enjoy the benefit

57:19

of having them. So it's plain old, good,

57:22

like old school robbery. It is

57:25

bad because it's bad. You have

57:27

stolen something from somebody else. But

57:29

it feels like giving me taking

57:32

from you a Britney Spears album that you've

57:34

copied. Yeah, I'm not sure, man. Listen, look,

57:36

when I used to use Napster, I

57:39

hadn't. And I saw Metallica

57:41

complaining at the time I was like, Hucky,

57:44

Metallica, you're millionaires, you're gonna sell loads of

57:46

records anyway, yada, yada, stop worrying about it,

57:48

people will come to your shows. Like in

57:51

time, I've kind of realized it's theft.

57:54

But when

57:57

you're thinking on all guys money, you

57:59

have a no longer have it anymore, to

58:01

be laughing about that and not really

58:04

caring. It's quite narcissistic. But

58:06

doesn't feel like theft. I think

58:09

it does. Do you because you've

58:11

been deprived of it? No,

58:13

but I know I as the

58:16

outside observer, like I wouldn't. Well,

58:19

what I'm saying, Peter, you have the empathy

58:21

to understand this. I think young people, I

58:23

think there's a, I think

58:26

empathy is somewhat learned, in part.

58:29

But there's there's this idea, like,

58:32

you know, if a person has then you know,

58:34

why not me? But apart from that,

58:36

I think I think the digital aspect dematerializes

58:39

in some sense, the guilt you

58:41

would feel because the process is

58:43

cut short. You don't have to sit near the

58:46

side of the right the train tracks. You don't have to plan

58:49

for two months. You don't have

58:51

to make sure that the right

58:53

train has the right stuff on it. You

58:55

don't have to like, get out there and

58:57

shoot the conductor. You just you just have

58:59

to make a phone call. And

59:01

then someone will give you a million bucks. And it's

59:03

digital dollars. It's not real. You don't have to know

59:05

the person. You don't have to look them in the

59:07

eye as you steal it. You just have to hear

59:09

their voice. And they don't you don't even hear the

59:12

part where they're weeping, because you they don't know they've

59:14

been they've been had for

59:16

two, three days. So you don't

59:18

you don't see anything that would make you

59:20

feel a sense of guilt or empathy for

59:23

this person. You just get a McLaren. Still,

59:27

man. I'm with I'd back

59:29

in. That's ridiculous. Holy

59:32

shit. I was yesterday. So

59:36

if you get it, you get it. Like if you're the

59:38

one that gets the withdrawal, you get it. Well,

59:42

no, like I'm doing my friend's data. So it's

59:44

like 50 50. So whatever I'll get, I'll

59:46

get 50%. So

59:48

okay, so you're I get it. So your friend is giving

59:51

you guys the list. He gives you

59:53

the program, he does the calls. And

59:55

then if you guys get it, he gets 50% you get 50%. But

1:00:00

it's kind of like annoying though, like sitting here

1:00:02

and calling and calling. But it's fun. Why don't

1:00:04

you start getting like on the street? Like, for

1:00:06

example, yesterday I hit like four Gmails, like in

1:00:08

a row. How many

1:00:10

calls? You get like an ego boost because you're just

1:00:12

smacking them back to back to back. How many calls

1:00:15

a day? Um.

1:00:20

Good question. I don't know. I

1:00:22

like to start like I wake up, I go

1:00:24

drop off my girlfriend stuff at home. And

1:00:27

then I like to start and just pretty much call

1:00:29

to like seven or eight PM. And then

1:00:31

I thought like eight, eight to nine,

1:00:33

actually. Yes. The, that's kind of when a

1:00:37

lot of people are off work around like six. So

1:00:39

it's nice around like that time. So you're in California.

1:00:42

So you're starting like 6am. No,

1:00:45

it's only like 12. Oh, like

1:00:47

three hours ahead. No,

1:00:51

it's like starting like six and that's

1:00:53

what's yours behind. So you're starting at noonish

1:00:55

in California. Yeah.

1:00:58

So you're starting calling people here at three. That's

1:01:00

what that's about when I start getting the calls.

1:01:03

So that makes sense. Interesting.

1:01:08

Like it's honestly

1:01:10

like, I don't know. It's

1:01:13

not that hard. It's like, we don't think of it like

1:01:15

it's real life. You know, it's almost like a video game.

1:01:18

Yeah, bro. You know what though? You're what are you 23, 24? No,

1:01:22

I'm way younger. This is going

1:01:24

to land you prison. So hard.

1:01:27

But that's the thing though. Like, first

1:01:29

of all, the punishment for

1:01:31

this type of thing, the social engineering

1:01:33

attack, the victim is willingly

1:01:37

giving up everything. You know what I mean? He's the

1:01:39

one giving you the code. He's the one doing everything.

1:01:41

The sense are very relaxed for this type of stuff.

1:01:43

It's going to be like two years or less, but

1:01:45

you're going to lose all the crypto. You're going to

1:01:47

lose your car and lose your house. You can lose

1:01:49

everything. I,

1:01:51

of course, you have, I have everything hidden.

1:01:53

I have multiple treasures, multiple ledgers. I have

1:01:55

ledgers buried with like a

1:01:58

few hundred games. It's

1:02:00

like, no matter what, like

1:02:02

with my friend, he went to jail for three

1:02:05

years, or he did a sim

1:02:09

club for like 1.4 mil.

1:02:11

So he went to jail, and

1:02:13

they only confiscated 300k of it. So he

1:02:16

still is a millionaire. And he's outrun up.

1:02:18

And he's a millionaire. So he's like,

1:02:20

all right, I might go to jail.

1:02:23

It might be a year or two. And I'm, I'm

1:02:26

okay with that. Did you do you believe him when

1:02:28

he said about his friend? Yeah,

1:02:30

I think that's probably true. And if

1:02:32

it's not, I don't know if

1:02:34

it's his friend. See, that's, that's the thing is like, the

1:02:37

thing I'm wondering about is the association.

1:02:40

Are these people friends or the

1:02:42

associates? Does he know him really well? We

1:02:45

don't know. They might never have met.

1:02:47

Also, it might be part of like, the

1:02:50

grooming of him into being a scammer. It's like, yeah,

1:02:52

look, I got busted once I went to jail, three

1:02:54

years, I got out in a year and a half,

1:02:56

I'm a millionaire. I was worth it. But like, Oh,

1:02:58

yeah, there's a good move. Right? You can't prove it.

1:03:00

But the funny thing about that is, is like, Charlie

1:03:03

Sremm went to jail for two years. I

1:03:05

spoke to Charlie about that. It's

1:03:07

a fucking horrendous story. Like, Charlie

1:03:10

had a bad time in

1:03:12

jail. And I, he's

1:03:16

talking about it like it's easy time. But

1:03:20

he's happy to go to jail. And

1:03:22

he's happy when he goes to jail,

1:03:24

to like, come out

1:03:26

with a criminal record, and then thinks he's

1:03:29

got these like devices hidden. It's a bit

1:03:31

like oceans 11. One of the things I

1:03:33

thought was really interesting about oceans 11

1:03:36

is when you see them after the

1:03:38

robbery, zoom at the car, and they're

1:03:40

basically saying that they've been followed everywhere. Where

1:03:44

could he possibly have hit these things? Like in

1:03:46

his own backyard? Like, even

1:03:48

if he has the minute he like, he's

1:03:50

gonna be watched. Well,

1:03:52

and now and the thing is, like, I think a lot of

1:03:55

these guys don't realize, you know, if

1:03:57

they get caught, the more information they

1:03:59

get. up the better. So

1:04:01

he's gonna he tells me

1:04:03

this. So now everyone knows that

1:04:06

he's got a friend who this happened to,

1:04:08

who sold 1.4 million, and only had $300,000 taken from him

1:04:10

by the police. Do you think

1:04:14

that they don't want the rest? You

1:04:16

don't think they want the rest of the 1.1 million? Of course

1:04:19

they do. So you're facing 10

1:04:21

years, you give us a Bitcoin, you can get

1:04:23

this down to 2.3. Yeah,

1:04:25

and then this guy, this other guy's got, he's

1:04:28

like, well, who's your friend? Yeah,

1:04:30

we'll take six months off. You know,

1:04:32

like, this is just a negotiation. So

1:04:34

like, the deeper the hole

1:04:36

you dig on these things, like,

1:04:39

the this criminal ring will be

1:04:41

taken down slowly or quickly, right?

1:04:43

All of these little rings, and these people are

1:04:45

gonna lose their money. And the for me, what's

1:04:48

beautiful is that I think most of

1:04:50

the people whose money is stolen by a lot of these

1:04:53

kids, a lot of them will get

1:04:55

quite a bit of it back. Maybe not all of it. Yeah.

1:04:59

I think he's very naive. Like, he's naive,

1:05:01

having this length of a conversation with you.

1:05:05

Given up as much given up as

1:05:07

much information as he has. And

1:05:11

there may be somebody who listens to that guy. Oh, I know

1:05:13

that that's Jeff. Well, I made

1:05:15

one of those memes, the guy standing in the corner,

1:05:18

like, they don't even

1:05:20

know that I'm like, super important,

1:05:22

like, person in my free time. I

1:05:24

did one of those and I was like, I

1:05:26

had a corner, the guy goes, they don't even

1:05:29

know that I'm like a super social engineer hacker

1:05:31

who makes millions of dollars. And then the other

1:05:33

guy's like, isn't that like, isn't

1:05:35

that that Daniel Freeman

1:05:37

kid or whatever? That was in that podcast

1:05:40

last week. My

1:05:43

phone up. The

1:05:46

kid. I think I

1:05:48

just heard Daniel on a podcast this

1:05:50

week. Do you want to check this out? Yeah, like,

1:05:52

he's got a distinct voice. He

1:05:55

apparently engages in normal social things.

1:05:57

So like, you don't think someone's going to

1:05:59

know who it is. is, or you're going to be playing

1:06:02

Minecraft or whatever, and you're going to end up on a server

1:06:04

and all of a sudden this voice comes in like, oh my

1:06:06

God, he's on right now. I know

1:06:08

that voice. You don't think someone, you

1:06:10

know, you don't think that someone who went to

1:06:12

your local Minecraft meetup isn't going to

1:06:14

hear that and go like, I

1:06:17

know exactly. That's John Johnson right there's

1:06:19

what that is. You know, like, it's

1:06:21

a big problem. For

1:06:23

he might, he might even have it this way.

1:06:25

Like, dude, they discussed that thing on what Bitcoin

1:06:27

did. Yeah. Daniel, if you're

1:06:30

listening, get in touch. We'd

1:06:32

like to interview you. Yeah.

1:06:34

Let us know. Did you get fired? Does

1:06:37

your mom know? You still got that, McLaren? Get

1:06:41

in touch, Daniel. I want to talk to you. All right.

1:06:43

Anyway, let's carry on with Daniel. I

1:06:45

have friends with like genuinely 10 to

1:06:47

$40 million. So you guys

1:06:49

don't, you don't care if you go

1:06:51

to jail. Because

1:06:53

you come out. I don't care. It doesn't happen. Like,

1:06:55

no one gets arrested. But I mean, like, let's say

1:06:58

you get arrested. You don't care because you come out

1:07:00

a few years later, you have stuff hidden. That's

1:07:04

crazy. Yeah. But

1:07:06

to be honest, we do everything correctly

1:07:08

to not get arrested. Like, it's almost

1:07:10

like it's almost like there's no consequences.

1:07:13

It's nuts. Clean

1:07:15

the money. You just go on and then

1:07:18

you don't, you don't like buy anything with

1:07:20

it directly. We bought McLaren. It's not like

1:07:22

we can't finish out through any exchange. So

1:07:25

it's kind of like hard to like, you didn't

1:07:27

like track it at all. Like on my phone wallet

1:07:29

right now. Here, let me put it up. I

1:07:33

have on my phone Exodus. I

1:07:36

have 107K Bitcoin, 1.7 coins. It

1:07:40

could be also a situation that he doesn't have the McLaren. But

1:07:43

what he has is in his social circle, every time they

1:07:45

go out, he's got money. So

1:07:47

he might have like the, I don't know, the

1:07:51

cream hoodie and the new dunks

1:07:53

and some nice jeans. And when they go

1:07:55

to the bar, he's buying the drinks. Like

1:07:57

he looks flush amongst his friends. But

1:08:00

he has nothing else. But even that, like when I

1:08:02

was a kid, I fucking broke.

1:08:06

I knew the kids who had money because their

1:08:08

parents gave them money, and they had a cool

1:08:10

life because they had the new genes and the

1:08:12

trainers and the money when we went out. Maybe

1:08:14

he's just got that. I was in

1:08:16

a similar position to you. I remember we

1:08:19

got all secondhand clothes, and

1:08:21

I was in school when Tommy Hilfiger became a

1:08:23

big thing. I

1:08:26

remember wearing this shirt. I really like this shirt.

1:08:28

It was a polo-type shirt. Someone

1:08:31

at school had a little logo, a little lion on it. Someone

1:08:33

was like, oh my God, Josh has

1:08:35

a Tommy Hilfiger on. Everyone

1:08:38

knew it because it was the first time

1:08:40

I'd ever worn anything named brand. I

1:08:42

think I wore that shirt every day for the next six months.

1:08:45

I was like the only

1:08:47

thing I ever had that was

1:08:49

nice. I

1:08:51

agree. I think that could be true. It

1:08:53

could be that there's an older guy in the

1:08:55

group that he could be telling someone else's story.

1:08:59

I think that that's kind of what's going on in part is

1:09:01

that he's telling someone else's story in part. I

1:09:03

think someone else owns a McLaren. I think

1:09:05

that he might be on his way

1:09:07

to making a lot of money. He's

1:09:09

doing pretty well, and he's telling you the things he's

1:09:11

going to do with the money that he gets in

1:09:14

the next three months. That could be what's going on.

1:09:17

The funny thing is it reminds me of my first job. My

1:09:20

first job was selling double glazing. After

1:09:22

school, I used to go down to this depressing

1:09:24

office above Kentucky Fried Chicken. There

1:09:27

were 20 people in a room. You're given a phone

1:09:29

book. You were told to do from this page to

1:09:31

this page. You would phone these people up

1:09:33

and you'd say, hi. It's called Alawai

1:09:35

Al-Qan. I'm from Alawai Al-Qan. We've been delivering

1:09:38

flyers in your area. Have you received one?

1:09:40

They'll be like, no. Oh, well, we're double

1:09:42

glazing. All your goal was

1:09:44

to get an appointment. It was a numbers game.

1:09:47

In a three-hour shift, where

1:09:50

you were paid like £3 an hour, if

1:09:52

you got one appointment, that was seen as a good

1:09:54

shift. But you get £50 for an appointment. It

1:09:57

was just literally a numbers game. me

1:10:00

and me tried to up the numbers games. What I did, I

1:10:03

spoke to the manager and said, have we got the

1:10:05

flyers? He's like, yeah, because they never actually did. And

1:10:07

so where I lived, I went and delivered them. And

1:10:09

then I went in the phone book and I would

1:10:11

just look for them in the addresses and I'd phone

1:10:13

them up. And I think that got me to like

1:10:15

three appointments a session. Nice.

1:10:18

But it's a similar job though. It was

1:10:20

just fucking numbers game. Eventually you

1:10:22

got some old granny or somebody said, yeah,

1:10:24

I'm interested in double glazing. You hit that

1:10:26

moment in time where like the wife sat

1:10:28

with the husband the night before they've like,

1:10:30

yeah, we need a conservatory or we need

1:10:32

double glazing. And you hit them at the

1:10:34

right time. What is double glazing? Like

1:10:37

windows, double paned. So windows can be one

1:10:39

pane of glass or double. So with double

1:10:41

glazing, it's like it makes the house extra

1:10:43

warm. It retains the heat. You know what?

1:10:46

You English people got to enter the real

1:10:48

world and start speaking English. Hold

1:10:51

on. We invented the fucking language. We

1:10:54

took letters out to help you. We improved it. And

1:10:58

now we're taking vowels out because like America

1:11:00

is the best. All right, next. Next

1:11:03

one. It's fun. And

1:11:07

McLaren dealer takes Bitcoin? No,

1:11:11

obviously it's from private sellers. Like I have

1:11:13

like rich people that I know that. Oh,

1:11:16

I see. Interesting. Yeah, I

1:11:18

just give them money and they'll give me, they'll

1:11:20

like privately sell me the car. But

1:11:23

there's a hole in that. Say

1:11:26

he sells and buys a McLaren off some rich

1:11:28

person he knows and they take Bitcoin and this

1:11:30

person doesn't know he's a scammer and then they

1:11:32

go and try and sell him Coinbase. They're like,

1:11:34

yeah, this is stolen coins. They'll be like, yeah,

1:11:36

that was from Daniel. So I don't actually believe

1:11:39

these bits of the story. I agree. Like there's

1:11:41

like that. I think he has not thought about

1:11:43

how he's going to get that McLaren yet. Yeah,

1:11:46

right. Come. I do like legal stuff as

1:11:48

well. Like I have like small

1:11:50

legal side hustles like businesses and shit, but

1:11:52

I can like funnel through, you know, and

1:11:54

like make everything just seem like I'm like

1:11:57

if you were competing in real life. I

1:12:00

look like a regular child. Just a

1:12:02

regular normal kid. I don't believe that

1:12:05

either, by the way. Well,

1:12:07

you look like a regular normal kid? No,

1:12:09

no, no, no. The side hustles. Like, what

1:12:12

is he selling? Like Minecraft gear? Like... I

1:12:14

don't know. I'm not totally... Like, so if

1:12:16

I put myself in his shoes and I'm

1:12:18

living with my parents and I'm

1:12:20

suddenly coming home with like an off-white hoodie that's

1:12:22

$450 and I suddenly look a little bit flush,

1:12:25

I needed some kind of explanation. Yeah, but you're gonna

1:12:27

launder $3.6 million as like a 19-year-old? No,

1:12:32

no. What I mean is... It's just the parts that matter. I

1:12:35

don't believe he has a registered

1:12:37

Delaware company, but I could believe

1:12:39

that he's saying to like his

1:12:41

parents... I'm selling Minecraft stuff. Yeah.

1:12:43

I'm selling swords to potions to

1:12:45

nerds on mine or, you know,

1:12:47

I'm trading Pokemon cards, some kind

1:12:49

of thing to explain why he's

1:12:51

coming home with all that stuff.

1:12:53

Because kind of

1:12:55

at that age, you're a little bit more fearful of your

1:12:58

parents than the police. I

1:13:01

agree. I put my backpack and

1:13:03

say like, you would never expect that this

1:13:05

kid is stealing millions of dollars online. Fucking

1:13:07

live with your parents? Again,

1:13:10

because you're a return. No way. Well,

1:13:14

I'm... Next year, I'm thinking about getting a penthouse,

1:13:16

so I'm excited for that. But

1:13:19

when that's when school starts back up, it's

1:13:21

now summer. So this

1:13:23

summer, my goal is one to two mils. That's

1:13:26

my goal this summer. How many of your friends do this? We

1:13:31

have our small group where like all like,

1:13:34

I'm not personally a millionaire. I

1:13:36

have like five, six figures. Five,

1:13:38

six figures is a loose thing to say because

1:13:40

the difference between five, six figures is a lot

1:13:43

of fucking money. Yeah.

1:13:45

And also he avoided the McLaren question. You live with

1:13:47

your parents? Were you going to McLaren? The

1:13:50

answer is yes, I live with my parents. Yeah, I live

1:13:52

with my parents. And I

1:13:55

think he's early in this. I think he's

1:13:57

been groomed into doing this with the potential

1:13:59

down. the line. And he's

1:14:01

probably had a few hits of 5, 10K.

1:14:04

That's what I think it is. But anyway.

1:14:06

Like most of my friends have around 10

1:14:08

or something. They're like all millionaires. And

1:14:13

we always do fun stuff. For example, two weeks ago, we went to

1:14:15

a club in LA, dropped

1:14:20

130K on bottles. Just like, move it to it.

1:14:25

But wow. All right.

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to Ledger. That is Sean. That's the kind

1:18:01

of thing I can believe

1:18:03

he's doing. Well,

1:18:10

I think what he did is he, what this

1:18:12

group, but he, he says

1:18:15

he doesn't say on frame. And the reason I

1:18:17

kind of might think that that's true is because

1:18:20

he then he seems to remember that

1:18:22

he said he was in San Fran, although I don't think

1:18:24

he does. So I think he's specifying that

1:18:26

they went to LA, which seems like a special trip. town

1:18:31

store. So like, it

1:18:33

seems like it's a special trip to go to LA. And

1:18:36

I think they did, I think going to LA. And

1:18:39

that's, I think that's kind of neat. Like

1:18:41

I think he gives you a very specific

1:18:43

time period. Yeah. And you can see

1:18:46

them wanting because you do it, you go to these fucking

1:18:48

bars, and you see a bunch of douchebags kids who are

1:18:50

like 20 years old, 21 years old. And

1:18:53

you look at them and you're like thinking, how are

1:18:55

you spending this much money? Have you got this much

1:18:57

money? What's funny is if it's true, someone

1:19:00

remembers because I'll bet it was

1:19:02

weird. Hmm. My

1:19:05

friend that is so okay, this is

1:19:07

interesting to me. I'm older. So

1:19:10

your generation has a contingent of

1:19:13

people that are literally, I imagine

1:19:16

your friend is a programmer. Y'all are getting

1:19:18

lists. I don't know where you get

1:19:20

them from the dark web. And

1:19:22

you're making calls, running your own script

1:19:25

and social engineering to get

1:19:27

people to give you their shit. Yeah. Yeah.

1:19:30

I have like a, like a developer who just came in,

1:19:32

I think like a grand and he sets up the buffer

1:19:35

and it just like auto calls for active,

1:19:38

like for active. You can call calling is so annoying.

1:19:40

You have to sit there and no one picks up.

1:19:44

It's like you sit there for hours. You're not getting any

1:19:46

pickups. It's like insane. And

1:19:48

then, but what gets active so much better. Cause when

1:19:51

they press one, you kind of know that they're retards.

1:19:53

So you just call them up and they fall for

1:19:55

it. Oh,

1:19:57

you're qualifying. Yeah,

1:20:00

this is I will say this is the cleverest

1:20:02

one I've ever received these calls asking for me

1:20:04

to tell you whether I'm hacked or

1:20:06

not You

1:20:14

know your qualified leads, okay, so like let's say

1:20:17

you called you get ten people to hit one

1:20:20

How many of them give you money? Definitely

1:20:27

Right Don't

1:20:30

have their Google authenticators things so

1:20:32

we can't log into any changes Reminder if

1:20:34

you're listening right now and you use a

1:20:37

Google Google authenticator open it right now Click

1:20:40

on your profile picture and click

1:20:42

on use without account get the fuck out of

1:20:44

having that shit stored on Google Fuck

1:20:47

all through their Google photos look for seeds like

1:20:50

for example yesterday I

1:20:52

hacked an email and I went through his Google photos. I found

1:20:54

his lighter seat I just simply sent out it was like 30

1:20:56

K in XRP So

1:20:58

again sometimes I think he's lying. He said

1:21:00

yesterday, right? But

1:21:02

he said he'd made ten grand and then the other day

1:21:04

made 105 K Like

1:21:07

I feel like he embellishes the story at times

1:21:09

anyway. I think he's changing times and such Yeah,

1:21:11

he's time-shifting. You gotta hold that cuz that's

1:21:13

hard. It's hard to get rid of XRP off

1:21:15

exchange I guess you give him the gold bugs So

1:21:23

you just have a ledger there that you're using to To

1:21:27

load up if you find a seed phrase You

1:21:29

don't even need a ledger to load up a

1:21:31

seed phrase. I suppose that's true. You're using Sparrow.

1:21:33

You know what trust ball is Yeah, trust wallet

1:21:35

is. Oh, yeah Trust wallet accident so all those

1:21:37

things you can just recover a seed phrase with

1:21:39

so I'll just paste it in there Click recover

1:21:41

and all the crap that just pops up just

1:21:43

end up interesting so

1:21:47

when I Fun

1:21:49

honestly, it's like the best job.

1:21:52

I agree though. It is fucked up You're kind of like

1:21:54

it's super fucked up me unsuspecting people

1:21:57

interfacing their money like I

1:22:00

don't know. Like if you're like, if you can give up

1:22:02

your speed, race someone over the phone like that, you don't

1:22:05

deserve it. Like, come on, bro. Like, what? You

1:22:09

come from a rich family or poor family? Um,

1:22:13

middle. She's like middle class kid.

1:22:16

Yeah, I grew up great. I didn't

1:22:19

have a bad childhood. I love my

1:22:21

children. I always got to. And

1:22:24

yet, like

1:22:27

my first car was, was

1:22:29

a Dodge scat back

1:22:32

that my parents bought for me. My

1:22:35

first car was a

1:22:37

Plymouth Horizon. No heat or no, and no

1:22:39

air conditioning. Really?

1:22:42

Yeah. And then like, I just

1:22:44

like, ever since I was little,

1:22:46

like, I've always wanted like Ferraris

1:22:48

and all that nice stuff. And

1:22:51

now I can get it. You know what I mean? Now

1:22:53

it's like, I have so much fun. It's kind of like

1:22:55

I have no stress at all. It's like ultimate freedom. Do

1:22:58

you think this is a cultural issue that

1:23:00

that we didn't grow up with? Like, I'm,

1:23:03

you know, in my 40s, I grew

1:23:06

up with no internet until I was about 14.

1:23:08

But the internet was sucked until I was like,

1:23:11

really early 20s, right? And

1:23:14

so we've known an

1:23:16

era where kids all day every day, they're TikTok

1:23:19

game, Instagram, internet in, and

1:23:21

they're seeing their Travis

1:23:23

Scott's and the

1:23:25

Kendrick Lamar's and they're seeing

1:23:27

cars and clothes and outfits.

1:23:30

They're seeing other young kids

1:23:32

who are TikTok. Like, do

1:23:34

you think the aspiration

1:23:36

now is so high to

1:23:39

have that stuff culturally,

1:23:43

but without the desire, without the proof of work with that?

1:23:45

Because for me, I always wanted to do well, but I

1:23:47

want my nuts off, right? I never

1:23:49

fucking scammed people or stole from people.

1:23:53

But the aspiration now is, is there

1:23:56

but without the work. I think, I

1:23:58

think that this generation is

1:24:00

divorced from what we went

1:24:02

through. Like we were a bubble generation of

1:24:05

sorts. You remember the

1:24:07

phone on the walls. You remember like calling

1:24:09

your neighbor, memorizing phone

1:24:11

numbers. I remember turning

1:24:13

up on time for things because if you didn't. You

1:24:17

remember, so nowadays, exactly, like

1:24:19

if I have a scheduled meeting, the

1:24:22

person will call me eight times before to

1:24:24

make sure that we're doing the meeting. And

1:24:27

if you don't answer those calls, they will cancel the

1:24:29

meeting. They'll just be like, oh, you're not coming. Whereas

1:24:32

like when I was younger, it'd be like, we're all gonna

1:24:34

meet at the community center at 3 p.m. tomorrow, and then

1:24:36

you would. And you're like, it's

1:24:38

10 past three. It's like, where's Steve? Where's Steve? You

1:24:41

gotta sit there and wait. He's making us wait. What an

1:24:43

asshole. Well, we're gonna stay around for 20 more minutes. And

1:24:45

if he's not, you know, so. But

1:24:47

if you go to like a bar and someone takes you, it's

1:24:49

like, dude, sorry, I'm running 20 minutes late. You're like, cool, you

1:24:51

just like sit on your phone. You play with it, because you

1:24:54

got something to do while you wait. Yeah, and that's,

1:24:56

you know, but yeah, it's a different era. I

1:24:59

remember the first time I saw Lamborghini. I

1:25:01

didn't know what a Lamborghini was until fifth

1:25:03

grade. And someone brought

1:25:05

a magazine, and

1:25:08

they had a picture of it. And she was like, yeah, she was

1:25:10

like, where I was, there was a

1:25:12

reservation and the Indian kids got paid from the casino.

1:25:15

And they made a ton of money. So they had aspirations

1:25:18

of like having nice cars. And so they knew what they

1:25:20

were, right? So they had magazines. And

1:25:22

I remember she opened this page and there was a

1:25:24

mint green Lamborghini on it. And

1:25:26

I've never seen a car like that. I've never seen a car like

1:25:28

that at all. Never seen it on fifth

1:25:30

grade. I've never seen a nice car and seen

1:25:32

Toyotas and, you know, whatever the people

1:25:34

around me have. Was it a mustache? I

1:25:36

don't know. Well, I'm proud of that. I don't know if it was a

1:25:39

mustache. In the 90s. Somehow Lamborghini

1:25:41

gets away with mint green and it

1:25:43

looks cool. It looked really cool. And

1:25:46

that was- If you don't have a mint green truck or a

1:25:48

mint green Toyota, people are like, what the fuck have you done?

1:25:50

And I remember I looked at that car and

1:25:52

I said to myself, someday I'm

1:25:54

going to own a mint green Lamborghini. It's

1:26:00

interesting because that was the first time I ever saw

1:26:02

that and I didn't see Lamborghini probably again for 5,

1:26:04

10, 15 years. So

1:26:08

information accessibility is completely different now and

1:26:10

you're right. Like you're on Instagram you

1:26:12

see, you know, you see these guys

1:26:14

with Lamborghinis or on private planes stuff like that. You

1:26:16

know, I flew twice when I was a kid. It

1:26:19

was too expensive. So yeah, we were

1:26:21

a bubble generation. We didn't know what this stuff even

1:26:23

looked like or that it was available to us. I

1:26:26

couldn't have told you what it cost. I couldn't

1:26:28

have told you that Lamborghini was a hundred some thousand

1:26:30

or two hundred thousand dollars. Couldn't have done that. And

1:26:32

if I told you, I would have

1:26:34

known what that number meant. I remember my

1:26:36

mom came home one day when I was

1:26:39

younger and she said that she just got done with the grocery shopping

1:26:41

and that it was $130 or something like that. And

1:26:44

I remember looking at her and going, we have $130. Really? We do. I

1:26:50

just money was, it was

1:26:52

something that I didn't understand. And

1:26:54

so, you know, yeah, I think

1:26:56

I think it is something going on generationally. I think

1:26:58

that they have a lot of access to information about

1:27:01

what is nice and what is not nice. And

1:27:03

they're young. And I think so they

1:27:06

can achieve their aspirations early, find out

1:27:08

how stupid their aspirations were and

1:27:10

how maybe they're not as fulfilling as they thought they

1:27:13

were. And and who

1:27:15

knows? But like, yeah, I think I think that's exactly

1:27:17

right. All right.

1:27:20

Like if I go to

1:27:22

the store, like we went for a

1:27:24

day or drive. You have

1:27:27

your friends. My friend bought a $40,000 Louis Vuitton

1:27:29

jacket for no reason. Just just for fun. You're

1:27:31

unaware of it. How many of those? Like 200k.

1:27:35

I would say. His obstacle isn't great. How

1:27:37

many of those do you think that Louis

1:27:39

Vuitton sells in a year? I

1:27:42

haven't. Yeah, probably no. Probably 10, maybe 10

1:27:44

of those at most. One a month. So

1:27:48

like there's I can see you in a 40k

1:27:50

Louis Vuitton jacket. I don't think we looked we

1:27:52

looked at Louis Vuitton. There's only one jacket in

1:27:54

that price range. And

1:27:58

so like I was like, you know, it's not going to take. someone

1:28:00

very much to go look at Louis Vuitton and be

1:28:02

like, okay, 40k. Let's see what

1:28:05

we got here. Okay, we got 10

1:28:07

sales once to a guy named Ben Affleck.

1:28:11

Once to you know, Christina

1:28:14

Aguilera. This guy, oh, look, Bill Gates bought one.

1:28:16

Okay, who the fuck is this? That

1:28:23

was like, that was a

1:28:25

kid that came out of

1:28:27

those other two year old.

1:28:29

Yeah, we have that we have

1:28:32

a camera. We thought it was so weird. We kept the

1:28:34

camera footage. You know, like, this is gonna be this is

1:28:36

a weird. It's a weird thing. Because I'll bet

1:28:38

you that like the opposite isn't

1:28:40

great. I doubt that he understands that

1:28:42

that opposite isn't great. I

1:28:44

wonder if there's a tool to get

1:28:46

that an AMI tool to get that

1:28:48

jacket that goes out and scans Twitter

1:28:50

and Instagram. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly.

1:28:53

Yeah, I'll bet the

1:28:56

FBI has it. Yeah,

1:28:58

he's fucking into McLaren. And

1:29:01

when are you so when is enough for you? What

1:29:03

are you done? Okay.

1:29:07

So I hit something very,

1:29:09

very big a few months ago.

1:29:12

I'm not gonna say the amount. But I basically, I

1:29:14

was gonna be my I was gonna do

1:29:16

that. And I was

1:29:18

done. I was gonna live my life. I was gonna

1:29:20

invest. I was gonna do stocks as well as trade

1:29:22

because I know how to day trade and I enjoy

1:29:24

it. It's really fun. And

1:29:26

I'm a very like, I really enjoy finance. So

1:29:29

that was kind of my goal to live off that money and

1:29:32

turn into more money. But unfortunately,

1:29:36

my cut was snake by my partner, stole

1:29:38

my cut and deleted his account and just

1:29:41

here forever. So but

1:29:45

I would say my out is

1:29:48

four mil. I would say this is valid.

1:29:50

I know you have a

1:29:53

partner in this, or you did.

1:29:55

I will so you get 4

1:29:57

million. So let's say you get 2 million this summer, what

1:29:59

next 2 million? next summer

1:30:02

and then you're

1:30:04

done? Yeah, well,

1:30:08

honestly, if I make two meals this summer, then

1:30:11

like I would hope by the end of the

1:30:13

year that I have like five meals, because I'm

1:30:15

still gonna work during

1:30:17

school time. I'll just do it

1:30:19

when I get back from school. No college? In

1:30:25

the future. In the future.

1:30:28

I am gonna go. So

1:30:31

interesting, man. Like,

1:30:34

I'm not a dumb kid. Like, I've always had

1:30:36

always my whole life. Like, I'm in all honors

1:30:38

classes. I'm in all advanced placement classes. You know

1:30:41

what I mean? Yeah.

1:30:43

So like, either way, I think even

1:30:46

like, when or without this shit, I

1:30:48

think that I will succeed in life no matter what. This is

1:30:51

just kind of giving me a head start.

1:30:53

Like, I just have automatic ton

1:30:56

of money to start off with. Man, boom, I

1:30:58

didn't create my own business. I

1:31:00

can funnel it into, yeah, trading and

1:31:03

so on and just growing from there.

1:31:05

So why do you guys pick names? And why

1:31:07

are they like, you're the first one to call me

1:31:10

who doesn't have a two Bible names? Well,

1:31:14

people pick their own names. When

1:31:16

I call Coinbase, I'm

1:31:19

Eddie from Coinbase Consumer Asset

1:31:21

Protection line. But when

1:31:23

I do Google, I'm Daniel from Google's

1:31:25

customer care line, just because when we

1:31:27

send out emails, because I can like

1:31:29

directly send emails from Google with

1:31:32

like Chase IV and everything.

1:31:34

Yeah, using Java, your spoofing

1:31:36

headers. It's

1:31:39

not even spoofing, it's using Google Forms. Oh,

1:31:41

okay. It's interesting. It's actually

1:31:43

like, simple, but a lot

1:31:46

of people don't know how to do it. But

1:31:48

yeah, in that email, it's

1:31:50

like, I have a pre custom template and it

1:31:53

says Daniel on it. So I just use that

1:31:55

name. Interesting. You

1:31:58

have to buy the program from your friend. Which

1:32:00

one? The one that gives you the list. Oh,

1:32:02

the one that gives me the list? The list?

1:32:04

No, because we're just 50-50ing them. Just putting 50-50

1:32:07

like, we'll get a bunch of good data from like

1:32:09

a lot of rich investors, blah, blah, so long. And

1:32:21

then just run the bot, get active

1:32:23

and then green them up. Where's this fucking

1:32:25

source of like leads? That's crazy. Is

1:32:28

he not buying it from the dark web? No,

1:32:31

no. The dark web doesn't have anything. That's

1:32:33

not really... Honestly, it's

1:32:36

some actual like Chinese and Russian

1:32:39

like hackers, like genuine hackers that

1:32:41

like... Because we don't know how to actually hack, hack, we don't

1:32:43

know how to put one here and shit.

1:32:47

And like, simple up. You guys are good at it. Yeah,

1:32:51

thank you. But, yeah,

1:32:53

we actually have like hackers that we

1:32:55

know that we like perked off. For

1:32:58

example, for like a really, really good

1:33:00

database, we'll pay like 100

1:33:02

to 200K for it. And

1:33:05

then that'll give us like 800K plus. You know what I mean? And

1:33:07

you'll pay the... We'll pay more. You'll pay

1:33:09

Russian in crypto. Yep. And

1:33:13

they'll send us it. Do they only accept Bitcoin? They only accept

1:33:18

crypto. It's not just Bitcoin, whatever. So

1:33:21

they'll take whatever though you got. Yeah,

1:33:25

pretty much. The

1:33:27

interesting thing is, the

1:33:29

way he talks about how

1:33:32

they do it, he

1:33:35

talks very confidently like it's just

1:33:37

happening, right? But his

1:33:40

whole tone of voice changes

1:33:42

when he talks about the life

1:33:44

they're living and makes it less believable.

1:33:47

It's like he's making up as he goes along. But

1:33:51

I actually... When

1:33:53

he talks about spoofing, what does

1:33:55

he say? He uses Google Forum? Forum.

1:33:57

Forum. Google Forum and the way...

1:34:00

There's a completely different tone of voice to

1:34:03

have. That's true. I think one is aspirational

1:34:05

in some ways, right? The public living. But

1:34:07

the other thing is a lot of the

1:34:10

stories he's telling are stories about other people,

1:34:12

right? So he didn't buy the jacket.

1:34:14

He didn't buy the bottles at the bar. Someone

1:34:17

else was doing that. So

1:34:19

I think that's part of it. The other thing is like, what

1:34:23

I found interesting about this is that there is a

1:34:25

circular economy going on in the criminal world. You're

1:34:27

willing to take crypto or Bitcoin or whatever. And

1:34:30

there's a full on sort of hidden economy

1:34:33

from the rest of us that none

1:34:35

of us participate in. And

1:34:37

the money stays in Bitcoin. And

1:34:39

that's really interesting to me. All

1:34:42

right. It's

1:34:45

crazy. Like I have a friend,

1:34:47

my friend who has like $40 million. He's

1:34:51

a regular kid. He posts on Instagram

1:34:53

like a regular kid, just him outside

1:34:55

and said, you know what I never

1:34:57

know that this kid has like

1:35:01

almost nine figures. How long

1:35:03

before he spends at the how

1:35:06

many years is he waiting? He's been spending.

1:35:08

He's been spending, but he's spending it smartly.

1:35:10

He's not very public. He can post anything.

1:35:12

He doesn't. He

1:35:15

doesn't like care about the attention.

1:35:17

He's like having fun. Okay.

1:35:20

So like clubs. Like no one knows. His parents

1:35:22

don't know. I don't know. Honestly.

1:35:26

I don't know. Honestly, I don't have experience in the

1:35:28

know or not. I would

1:35:30

if I were to have to say, I would

1:35:32

say they probably do know. I mean, like I

1:35:34

started driving around like Ferrari instead of 16. And

1:35:40

he's not coming from a rich family. Could

1:35:43

it be these people are like,

1:35:45

I still feel like he's being groomed online to do

1:35:47

this, right? Yeah.

1:35:51

A 16 year old will have a problem

1:35:53

getting insured on a Ferrari. That's a problem.

1:35:55

I don't think it would be very expensive.

1:35:57

But yeah. But do you think it's like.

1:36:00

people convincing themselves, Hey, yeah, I'm 16. I

1:36:02

do this. Yeah, I'm your age. Eti, eta.

1:36:04

I got

1:36:07

40 mil. If

1:36:09

you have a lot of money, you can get insured on

1:36:11

a Ferrari. Like you can anyone can just

1:36:13

be very expensive. Like, that's the thing. You're

1:36:15

not on your parents insurance plan. If you're

1:36:17

putting a Ferrari on it. No, could you

1:36:19

imagine like mom daddy, I'm a Ferrari. But

1:36:21

on the insurance, like, it's

1:36:23

not happening. So you know,

1:36:26

I don't know. But there's they're kind of it's

1:36:29

dude, whatever the case is, this is

1:36:31

a movie, right? It's like, it's, you

1:36:33

know, so much about this, like the life rights

1:36:36

to the shit like it's, if

1:36:38

the young kids who are

1:36:40

not from like rich families driving around in

1:36:42

these cars, thinking they're hot shit. And

1:36:45

it just sounds to me like they're geeky,

1:36:47

they probably go out, they still get ignored

1:36:49

by women. And they really are literal

1:36:51

meme, like they don't even know, they don't know.

1:36:54

Yeah. Did your friend approach

1:36:56

you? Or did you figure it out what

1:36:58

he was doing? I'm

1:37:01

not gonna lie, we all met playing Minecraft and

1:37:03

we're like 10 years old. And

1:37:06

we all just grew from there. Like together.

1:37:08

By the way, that is my favorite bit of the whole

1:37:11

interview. We've met on the Minecraft at 10 years old.

1:37:14

And then you're what playing a game and you're

1:37:17

squeakers. And then he's

1:37:19

saying and then we meet someone we meet someone

1:37:21

that knows how to make

1:37:23

money like, like hacking stuff. And then he

1:37:26

starts like using us for call slaving.

1:37:28

So he'll be like,

1:37:30

I'll give you this much and all you have

1:37:32

to do is sit here and call people and

1:37:34

say the script and do it. So he's like

1:37:37

the mastermind. You guys are he's the one that

1:37:39

figured out the phone stuff. And

1:37:41

then we're making like pennies and shit. So we're doing

1:37:43

this for some random person. And then as we do,

1:37:45

we get better and better. And we start realizing, okay,

1:37:47

this is actually how you do shit. And

1:37:50

we whatever abandoned him and we just start

1:37:52

growing on our own and getting better and

1:37:54

better. And the one who

1:37:56

disappeared? the

1:38:00

ones from before, I don't know, we don't talk to him.

1:38:02

He was just like,

1:38:05

like, a majority of people that do what we do have

1:38:08

around like 10 to 50K because

1:38:11

they struggle getting good targets, getting good

1:38:13

data, like getting good databases, like the

1:38:15

one I'm calling you on now, that's

1:38:18

very difficult. And no one has like these

1:38:20

types of like, like data, a lot

1:38:23

of people have garbage data, like public data, like

1:38:26

people because they don't have money to pay for

1:38:28

the good data. A

1:38:30

good database is like $200K. Yeah,

1:38:33

so they just run like garbage databases and make

1:38:35

like $1,000, $2,000, $3,000, you know

1:38:39

what I mean? Like small amounts here and there. But what

1:38:42

we go after, we go after whales, like 500K plus.

1:38:49

And they're very doable. It's honestly

1:38:51

not that difficult. Of the people that hit

1:38:53

one, is it mostly old people? No.

1:38:58

Really? Honestly,

1:39:00

no, I get

1:39:02

so many. The guy with 30K feet yesterday,

1:39:04

he was 30. He was like Oh,

1:39:08

poor guy. I

1:39:10

know. How

1:39:13

are you? Like, I don't know. It's because like the way,

1:39:15

because we know how to speak to people,

1:39:18

we know what drives human psychology, greed and

1:39:20

fear, you know what I mean? So either

1:39:22

like convince the target, they're going to get

1:39:24

something good or that something that's going to

1:39:26

happen if they don't comply. You know what

1:39:28

I mean? I've talked to three of you

1:39:31

so far. You guys are phenomenally good. I

1:39:33

can't even tell you like, I

1:39:35

just, I know what it is. So I just,

1:39:37

you know, like do as far as I can

1:39:39

down the rabbit hole, but you

1:39:42

guys are phenomenally good at that. Yeah,

1:39:47

like it's weird giving a short, like all

1:39:49

day, every day. Just like, great.

1:39:51

You just make a ton of money and then we have

1:39:53

a nice time. We'll go out. We'll

1:39:55

go do some fun. The shit drive

1:39:57

around cool cars, like renting massive. maintain

1:40:00

Airbnb, right? And

1:40:04

just have fun. You hang out together. So

1:40:07

you actually know each other in person now. Oh,

1:40:10

yeah, yeah. We've all like been known each other

1:40:12

since we're like literal children. I

1:40:14

just thought you've been online. But you guys actually do live

1:40:16

near each other and stuff. Well,

1:40:19

yeah, we all move to like

1:40:21

LA area, because we started making so

1:40:23

much fucking money. And we want to have fun,

1:40:25

you know, and LA is the nice. It strikes

1:40:28

me like what's really interesting to me is there

1:40:30

these kids have developed what looks and feels a

1:40:32

lot like a corporate culture. It's

1:40:35

a company. Yes, they don't

1:40:37

know it. They don't know that they're employed in

1:40:40

a racket. Right? Like, like,

1:40:42

I don't know who's gonna do it. But like,

1:40:45

this is a like a RICO case, like wrapped

1:40:47

up in a bow. It's a corporate. There's

1:40:50

clearly a leader amongst them as well. Yeah,

1:40:56

it kind of reminds me a little bit of if you read

1:40:58

Freakonomics. Yeah. Yeah, when it talks about the drug dealers and they're

1:41:01

like the layers, it feels like they're kind of working their

1:41:03

way up the layers. Drug dealers work

1:41:06

for their lawyer. You know, they get a

1:41:08

bunch of money. They aggregate

1:41:11

it and then and then they get arrested and then they pay the

1:41:14

lawyer their money. Yeah,

1:41:17

fair. But if you live, obviously, in a penthouse

1:41:19

above everyone else, it's fun. Like

1:41:24

my friend was paying 20k a month for

1:41:26

his penthouse. Who's beautiful. So nice. So

1:41:29

you want to do that next year? It genuinely feels like you're

1:41:31

playing a video game. It's like Grand Theft Auto vibe.

1:41:33

Like you just have unlimited money. Right.

1:41:36

I guess what called it's a ratio, right? Calls you get

1:41:39

to amount of money and then you get to the amount

1:41:41

of money you get. Like

1:41:43

if you decide to sit down and grind every day all day,

1:41:45

you'll make one. I guarantee you if you're good at what you

1:41:48

do. I

1:41:51

have a sick admiration for your day. despite

1:42:01

finding it disgusting. No,

1:42:04

I'm not gonna lie, like recently, because I started

1:42:06

this when I was younger. So

1:42:08

like, kind of like

1:42:10

I had no morals to like, guide me with this, you know what

1:42:12

I mean? Like, this was just like fun

1:42:14

and easy. So like

1:42:17

now the more that I think about it, like

1:42:19