0:04

This is the Pitchfork Review. I'm

0:07

Pooja Patel, the editor-in-chief. Back

0:09

in March, I sat down with

0:11

the indie supergroup of the year,

0:13

Julian Baker, Phoebe Bridgers, and Lucy

0:15

Dacus, also known as Boy Genius.

0:18

Between lots of laughter and a few

0:20

emotional moments, we talked about the making

0:22

of their debut album, how they hold

0:24

each other up as friends and collaborators,

0:27

and why the idea of Sad Girl

0:29

Indie Rock is pretty much bullshit. Since

0:32

then, The Boys, as they're known, appeared

0:34

in Pitchfork's annual Best Tracks

0:36

and Best Albums list, and

0:38

they were nominated for five

0:40

Grammys. Here's an encore

0:43

presentation of one of our favorite episodes

0:45

of the year. Enjoy! This

0:57

is the Pitchfork Review. I'm Pooja

0:59

Patel, the editor-in-chief. And

1:01

today, I've got some very special guests

1:04

in the studio. It is the dudes

1:06

of Boy Genius. Phoebe

1:08

Bridgers, Julian Baker, and Lucy Dacus

1:10

are songwriters and musicians whose individual

1:12

releases have been some of our

1:14

favorite over the past decade. In

1:17

2018, they brought their distinct musical

1:20

styles together to release a self-titled

1:22

DP, which we gave Best New

1:24

Music. The album took

1:26

on themes of vulnerability, heartache, and

1:28

confronting grief, and it only left

1:30

fans wanting more. And now,

1:33

they're releasing a new album called The

1:35

Record. I am so

1:37

excited that you're here. I

1:39

wanted to start with something that I

1:42

know that we have thought a lot

1:44

about collectively, which is our astrological signs

1:47

and what they tell us about ourselves.

1:50

Do we all know our suns risings

1:52

and moons? This

1:55

is perfect. Phoebe,

1:57

let's start with you. What are your signs? like

2:00

I don't even really know mine but

2:03

I you're Leo Sun yeah

2:05

Pisces rising Capricorn man yes

2:07

I don't know the most about cap I

2:09

described you used to someone the other day as like you're

2:12

the guy walking down the four chess games

2:15

going on at once and making a move

2:17

and also thinking about like I

2:19

feel like I'm watching you consider like

2:22

three things at once sometimes when we're

2:24

all working together I was like watching

2:26

the gears turn and it's like you're

2:29

really in it all like focused and

2:31

dedicated it's really thank you my man

2:34

Lucy what's your side I'm

2:36

a I'm a tourist on Gemini

2:38

moon Sagittarius rising I don't think

2:41

I mean I'm in thing I'll never know peace

2:49

they're like completely completely Gemini

2:51

moon is like yeah

2:53

it's the the chaos actually

2:55

I love this for you like

2:59

I feel like you are burdened with

3:01

the knowledge of what the chaos

3:03

creates you're like seeing the whole

3:06

chaos so you feel more responsible

3:08

for the cake I know what I'm

3:10

up into yes it's like your inner world

3:12

is in turmoil and your external world is

3:14

very like that would see

3:16

do that she's like serenely smiling yeah inside

3:22

the dog on fire Julian what's yours

3:24

mine mine's easy yeah it's all on

3:26

the surface it's like there's no analytics

3:28

I'm triple Libra your

3:37

other your other placements Oh like Venus and

3:39

like Mars and other stuff no I have

3:41

it whatever area do you believe

3:43

ravine us or something I do

3:45

we talked about this yes

3:47

make it total sense I have slight

3:52

SNL addiction SNL SNL I

3:54

love SNL

3:58

no sex and love addiction Don't

4:02

you feel like interviewing Boy Genius is one

4:04

of those balancing things where you push

4:08

it and then it just kind of goes back and

4:10

forth forever? We haven't

4:13

even started the interview, but

4:15

this is revealing. I

4:18

also got into the

4:20

astrology industrial complex in

4:22

the thick of the

4:24

pandemic, right? The forced

4:27

solitude really allowed a

4:29

lot of people to

4:31

start being like, who am I? Who do

4:34

I want to be when this ends? I

4:36

am struck by Phoebe you emailing

4:39

the others a

4:41

week after Punisher came out. You're

4:43

like in the middle of this other big thing and

4:47

sought out to very close friends

4:49

and collaborators to be like, we need to be

4:51

together in this period of

4:53

time. Having this slate cleared

4:57

and being

4:59

like, what do I want? And

5:03

having it be my friends and

5:05

also to make something again. I think

5:07

since I finished the last song for

5:09

Punisher, I hadn't written anything and

5:11

then Punisher came out and

5:13

all I wanted to do was write and be

5:15

close to my friends. Now having found

5:17

time for each other, I think it was

5:19

Emily, I'm sorry, right? But first got sent

5:22

over. It

5:35

is special to be with

5:38

your friends in a place, I

5:40

mean, I don't want to say without distraction, but

5:42

with fewer distractions. Were there

5:44

things coming into the making of this record

5:46

or when you decided to start making that

5:49

you felt had changed about one

5:51

another that you were like learning

5:53

a new, whether that be like

5:55

creative ticks or personality ticks or

5:58

just like, how do you reform? to

6:00

work together after such

6:03

a big time has passed.

6:05

And in a strange global circumstance,

6:07

you know. I think both of

6:09

y'all are more confident or

6:11

were more confident than EP

6:13

recording time. Oh, 100%.

6:16

Yeah, I'm trying to think of like... I

6:18

mean the circumstances of the EP were also

6:20

completely different, right? Like a tour came

6:23

first and then the EP built around

6:25

that. Have we even talked about how

6:27

terrified I was about Ketchum, Idaho? Because

6:30

I don't really write in the room

6:33

ever. I write over like a

6:36

year and a half and I could finish 80% of

6:38

a song and then the

6:40

last 20% takes me the next year.

6:42

That's just how I always am.

6:44

And so these guys were like, yeah,

6:47

let's finish these ideas in these days,

6:49

these songs, and we like that little folky thing

6:51

and we'll finish it. I'm like, what?

6:55

And I didn't contribute anything towards the end

6:57

but trusted the process of it.

7:23

That was like how I learned how to be in

7:25

this dynamic, I think. Mm-hmm. I had

7:28

never done anything with you guys before, had

7:30

no idea how it was gonna

7:33

turn out and it was just

7:35

so fun to... yeah, just for

7:37

my own creative process to be like, oh

7:39

it actually... It actually can happen.

7:41

Yeah. It can finish a song in two days.

7:43

Yeah, I don't really write collaboratively with other

7:45

people. I've tried to do the... like I've

7:47

tried to do writing room stuff and it

7:49

never... I can't do... I'm an

7:52

emails person and it takes me also like

7:54

a year. I say I'm an emails person so that I

7:56

can leave the room and then I never email. I'm

8:00

like yeah I'll do that later analysts

8:02

and never have. I mean it's it's

8:04

funny that you but you mention Catch

8:06

of Idaho but has I feel like

8:09

without you without them as such as

8:11

like beautiful. Connective. Bridge

8:13

into this record. I have listened

8:15

to that song for what it's

8:17

worth. So. Many times

8:20

and it like makes me

8:22

tear up on. How. Did

8:24

you decide that this is a song?

8:27

That belonged in this group.

8:30

C. B wanted. Something.

8:32

Like blue velvet. And. We

8:34

talked about it for days and then I

8:36

realized like oh I have the song that

8:39

I wrote couple years ago and I say

8:41

i imagine I cannot imagine. Can't

8:44

imagine. Like

8:46

us As like I always say when I

8:48

put out a record people talk about besides

8:51

or whenever I'm like no I wrote ten

8:53

songs and the Manifesto last with aren't like

8:55

I know I don't have any song said.

8:57

The world hasn't learned real. I. Can imagine

8:59

that I have so many something say

9:02

I got a are not even bad

9:04

songs but I. Am not ready for the

9:06

responsibility of having to share them an answer for

9:08

them. Are like near I'm that's

9:10

for me the youth and so my

9:13

ship the got a sinister like your

9:15

turn around time on creatively processing in

9:17

see that space is faster than ours

9:19

sofa it's it's not turnaround time is

9:22

it? Because turnaround time. It's like an

9:24

ad dhl. It's like this you are

9:26

a full feel like I need to

9:28

go on a four. Hour walk

9:31

and bring my one. Consolidated.

9:34

Idea: I need to butler longer

9:36

and he's a buffer for really

9:38

long time. That's my A thing

9:40

is I'm like. The

9:42

song could have been finished in

9:44

three days, but. I'm

9:47

waiting to follow through every possible

9:49

option of like. What? If

9:51

I swung it or what if I

9:53

change this? Know what if I switch

9:56

these two vs around the option anxiety

9:58

paralyzes mean the yeah. Oh. Let

10:00

me ask this because a I think

10:02

I read that there was like over

10:04

double the number of songs that you

10:06

had between you and you had to

10:09

put it down sir, Half of that

10:11

and. Like a

10:13

do you make a record, twelve songs new, have

10:15

twenty five and are other things that you I

10:17

don't know. maybe had to come around to. Yeah.

10:20

The ones I didn't want to leave that i was

10:22

like no I want us to the on them as

10:25

your he was really. Defensive about a song I

10:27

wrote that I was like that to leave the

10:29

since I was. Like know the Song of Lives

10:31

and then I'll And then I was also

10:33

like adamantly. Against for them to. Assist

10:36

was like i don't get it I

10:38

really I would Never knows how like

10:40

my parents are fighting. For

10:45

success of this.

10:47

Is not like not. It was mostly. Easy. Those

10:49

are like maybe the to yeah. Just. Things

10:51

that we were working on: it wasn't clicking

10:54

like a bunch of the songs on the

10:56

record. made so much sense. and then the

10:58

awesome with those is filled by the wayside

11:00

because it wasn't grabbing her attention or just

11:03

like it didn't feel fun to try and

11:05

figure it out. And or that's kinda how

11:07

I saw about those ones. See, I felt

11:09

like the homework never slam. I don't have

11:11

a lot of tolerance for it, like finding.

11:14

Tones and finding spending eight hours trying

11:16

to find the perfect guitar tone. but

11:19

I won't rest until it's perfect. So

11:21

a lot what happened. As you know with

11:23

record a song and the I'd six months

11:26

later we like to one sample is wrong

11:28

and I had to go back to that

11:30

the studio and six it. It just takes

11:32

me longer. I think doesn't make sense cd

11:34

doing good stuff for bear with your son.

11:36

I was like this is why you're great.

11:39

This is why you are a. Building.

11:41

Song writer is because you're like know, Because

11:44

I. Like. A toy

11:46

you're writing indiscriminately. So I'm like

11:48

Quarantine League or whatever or me

11:50

give a sorry contacts. This is

11:52

the I had a lyric at

11:54

a Quarantine lyrics. which of course like

11:56

week to of coded. Sonic. Great

11:58

to me and you know. I think I

12:01

was just like how weird and Universal and strange

12:03

and everybody's gonna know when this was written and

12:05

then a year later. I was like

12:07

how weird and universe I

12:11

love the option journey for it's

12:14

in. I'm sorry. It's the like I'm wide

12:16

awake in quarantine is what it was Mm-hmm,

12:18

and then I'm wide awake. It's boring I

12:23

Loved My

12:25

money virally is what you chose. It's

12:27

too funny. I don't like a funny

12:29

thing that undercuts The

12:32

rest of it like you're like when you're still

12:35

thinking about the funny thing that was said Well,

12:37

the next couple lines are happening. I don't like

12:39

that You

12:51

know Some

12:54

of like what is exceeding like compelling

12:56

about some of the song reading here is

12:58

that there is humor like there is

13:02

comedy $20 one of

13:04

my favorite songs and there's first of

13:06

all like Julian in the cut. I

13:08

love I love to hear the big

13:10

guitar Some of the

13:12

staff listen to this album together and there

13:15

were multiple times where people Exclaimed like squeal

13:17

like Julian Yeah

13:21

Like it's like in for a second. She came

13:23

in and she was like we shall shred People

13:27

are cheering to you shredding. Yeah,

13:29

there were squeals. There are yelps of Julian

13:31

is shredding Like

13:52

hilarious one-liners that just get like Casually

13:58

thrown in there, the. There's so

14:00

many of the die on is a

14:02

personal savior and then offer the flower

14:05

done same I feel like I wonder

14:07

what can you tell me about the

14:09

song like where did this come from

14:11

Yes I wanna talk about the got

14:14

that image that picture. It's like a

14:16

revolutionary image. I wish I remember the

14:18

photographers name's you'll know that famous photo.

14:20

it's Vietnam protests the and on her

14:23

chest the guys taking the daisies into

14:25

the military police. That person is not

14:27

just some random guy who showed up.

14:30

On the college campus it was.

14:32

He was like a lifelong dedicated.

14:34

He's like a drag performer. performs

14:36

like named, had discuss and rights.

14:39

was like out here doing all

14:41

this stuff and that lion is

14:43

about. My. Mom being like

14:45

ideals don't pay the bills and

14:47

I'm like but I'm in this

14:49

bands now. And. We get

14:51

to be like I do have the power

14:53

enough to talk about magic and they are

14:55

so many hills that I want to die

14:58

on her. There's so many things to dedicate

15:00

myself to because you know when you're like

15:02

a little kid and people are like you

15:04

you want to be and then you get

15:06

to like fourteen and they're like but actually

15:08

get a salary so that you can afford

15:10

have healthcare not die from death or horrible

15:12

disease I'm kill something in you have believing

15:14

that a better world as possible. And

15:16

it's like it's not. Any hate. It.

15:19

Again, By

15:23

us up a suitably again the physical

15:25

comedy and. A

15:28

further out and pass any.

15:32

Other topics Ah

15:34

but yeah, And then I

15:36

don't know how to finish it. And least he. Solved.

15:39

The puzzle. Has. You solve

15:41

the puzzle doing brought the first verse

15:43

and the just the atmosphere of that.

15:45

like the idea of that and like

15:48

that mr of the chords to actually

15:50

just felt really visual and so like

15:52

writing. The second verse is a slick

15:54

more. Seen setting him. To

15:56

school like moody and angsty over and yeah basis.

15:59

The all that you just said is true is

16:01

like someone being like it's not worth it to.a

16:03

tie for an idea and you being like. Yes,

16:06

It is is. where did you know for

16:08

an idea of yeah? You know that it's

16:10

just like being fun. Like just being

16:13

playful about the idea of something

16:15

that is actually very serious. I

16:17

think to all of us and so

16:19

many people which is you're gonna die

16:21

so and you look back on the

16:23

or less tasteful if they ask why

16:25

not have done things and sacrificing so

16:27

where meaningful Mia and also that like

16:29

the beginning of that song as cheat

16:31

and playful because it's about like running

16:34

away at least he story about getting

16:36

as broom stick and actually putting a

16:38

handkerchief on and and trying to run

16:40

away and any tried to run away

16:42

from her I told my parents I

16:44

was like access to the idea I

16:46

would say running. Away As like I'm going to

16:48

run away. To. Slitting, you know, and seven

16:50

as I don't want you to be worried, I'm gonna

16:52

be okay. And they're like yeah

16:54

yeah and so one day I got a

16:56

broom handle and a handkerchief and tied at

16:58

the end of the broom handle and I

17:00

walked to my friend's house in the same

17:03

neighborhood businesses and was like i'm gonna live

17:05

with you. And

17:07

then it's her Mom says

17:09

called my. Advice:

17:13

so unlikely they'll appear in half of the

17:15

opposite. Live the how the hell be like

17:17

a disease. Were serious. I was serious. You

17:19

were like this is it Early on my

17:22

own. it's. That

17:40

was me being like I'm gonna go to Amtrak into the

17:42

New York and me and my best friend in seventh grader

17:44

gonna run away. Right now riding my little money

17:47

just. Bmx bike down highway seventy and

17:49

then the police are like you're a

17:51

block from home. Mom just called us

17:53

what is happening. It's like that kid

17:56

is running away because they have dreams

17:58

that are bigger. The printer power read

18:00

our that available to them right? And

18:02

then when you grow up into a

18:04

world that as hostile to you and

18:07

you don't have power for different reasons

18:09

he starts to seal and tantalized and

18:11

me childlike in a different they're like

18:13

rejecting. A little. Little.

18:31

Pay on time and a host the

18:34

podcast Que with Tom Power. People have

18:36

you some really nice words to describe

18:38

or show like in a genuine or

18:40

intimate are honest. Awfully I think the

18:42

best word to describe or show is

18:45

real real conversations with really incredible artists.

18:47

Sometimes they're funny, sometimes the deep but

18:49

we try to always make them real

18:51

of you want to hear some of

18:53

your favorite artist be I guess real.

18:56

Check out our podcast Que with Tom

18:58

Power available now on Cbc Listen or

19:00

wherever you get your post. It

19:09

is really kind is affecting to

19:12

me. So see you talk about

19:14

your former selves satellites to throw

19:16

with in the lyricism that also

19:18

the music but also I feel

19:20

like I'm watching you have all

19:23

the as humans in your music

19:25

and you know I think about

19:27

even like letter to an old

19:29

poet which is like very clearly

19:31

phoebe it to me it references

19:34

mean my dog I'm explicitly. I

19:47

was reading this old interview with you where

19:49

he he said something had of like jokey

19:51

it off the cuff about how. Holick.

19:54

You should steal from as many

19:56

people as possible in order that

19:58

that's an order. In order to

20:01

my best to say the things that you

20:03

want to say and I'm kind of curious

20:05

and both like the writing of that song

20:07

like how does it feel to like acknowledge

20:10

your past self and and in the contemporary

20:12

way and your past writing in a contemporary

20:14

way but then also like what are you

20:16

stealing from each other totally in the making

20:19

of music I think I struggle a lot

20:21

with. Compassion.

20:23

Or empathy for. My. past

20:25

self of whom are a have

20:27

and especially. When. I was writing

20:29

me in my dog. I was

20:32

just. Feeling

20:34

like those feelings were. Gonna

20:37

be forever. Like there is just a way

20:39

that I was always gonna be and it's

20:41

been such a relief to grow up and

20:43

realize that doesn't true. So.

20:46

Is that the. Sequel or

20:48

whatever. Kind of just feels like

20:50

holding the hand of my past

20:53

self into the future or something.

20:56

Yeah, Hunter know it's weird about the as. You

20:58

like the. Songs. That

21:00

I contributed this album A kind of do

21:02

that even with Punisher. Like even of my

21:04

last record, I feel like they're continuation of

21:06

the things I was thinking about then and

21:09

now. They're just kind of like more evolved

21:11

than I have some perspective on that time.

21:13

Or the I think Punisher and. Me:

21:16

And My Dog are kind of

21:18

like Perspective lists whirlwind of emotion

21:20

and the three songs. On

21:22

this record that I started as like at her

21:24

know just like looking back and be like damn

21:26

well wish I could a wish I could I

21:29

told myself like what is gonna be tight about

21:31

the future. But

21:33

something really special to me about

21:35

Letter Tunnel Poet. Is that I was

21:37

like i wanna do this and want to be

21:39

amazed. He had and line. But

21:41

I want is really hit and and

21:44

it has to be like of it.

21:46

It should mean like fulfill them like

21:48

something else, but not in a corny

21:51

way. And it should be a word that hit

21:53

as hard as may see it it and it

21:55

should feel like And Lucy was. like

21:57

happy Which

22:02

feels like... And then you

22:04

say, we were like in the midst of

22:06

writing and you had a guitar and you

22:08

played it and my heart

22:10

broke. I want to be

22:13

happy was the saddest thing I've ever heard you

22:15

say. I was about to say, I

22:17

feel like I've told you this personally before, but hearing

22:20

I listened to

22:22

that song a bunch because hearing

22:25

you sing a lyric because I

22:27

know about how you write and

22:29

like, you're not going to put a lyric you don't feel

22:33

genuine about. And I was like, this

22:36

person actually desires

22:39

to better themselves and be happy. But I needed you

22:41

guys to shift my perspective also, which I think

22:43

is beautiful. It was true immediately coming out of

22:46

my mouth, but you had to give it to

22:48

me. Yeah, I don't know if I've said this to

22:50

y'all, but I feel like that line is a favor

22:52

to me that y'all have given me. Because

22:54

I need to hear you say that. I was going to

22:56

tell you that hearing you say you want to be happy

22:58

made me want to be happy for myself. Everyone's

23:01

holding hands. I'm not going to be.

23:03

I'm not going to be. I'm close

23:05

to crying. Yeah, me too, honestly. Because

23:07

like, people sometimes ask like,

23:10

how does it feel to sing songs in front of

23:12

a bunch of people that are so dark? And I know that you guys

23:14

get that exact same question. And I have like,

23:17

not even really felt like that in the studio a lot,

23:19

but I felt like in the studio with that

23:21

song. Oh my god, your take. So

23:24

my other favorite thing about that lyric is

23:26

like we were just talking about I'm wide awake,

23:28

it's boring, not fitting and being I

23:31

want to be happy doesn't

23:33

fit enough for

23:35

it like adds a level of

23:38

I'm kind of even sick of writing this

23:41

song. You're trying to

23:43

find a less convoluted way. It's

23:46

very satisfying and like

23:49

rhythmic and I want to be happy.

23:53

It's like you're literally quitting. You're

23:55

quitting writing the song in the

23:57

way that feels good even anymore.

24:01

What? Can we talk about

24:03

the dreaded sad girl? Rock. Descriptor:

24:07

With go. Up

24:10

I think. I

24:12

mean, I've I feel like we

24:14

probably all share the same frustration.

24:17

Which is that like feelings get

24:19

canonized by. Gender. A

24:21

some the and other things that are like

24:23

not have nothing to do with the music.

24:27

If he be to your point of like

24:29

people asking you. How does

24:31

it feel to go up and play

24:33

a bunch of sad songs are depressing

24:35

songs to me. A lot

24:38

of this music is tied to hope.

24:40

Like. How do you deal with Sat?

24:42

kind of descriptor. I think I fully

24:44

talks for too long about. The. Differences

24:47

between Punisher and and the themes on this

24:49

record him and that really is just it.

24:52

Oh my yeah I I I think

24:54

the hope of my mood. In

24:56

these songs and like the hope that you

24:58

guys bring to my life. I'm.

25:02

Rocks that causes it. Is

25:05

this is some. More

25:08

and holding a lot of handle.

25:10

It. Was

25:12

true. Or utterance as

25:15

on so I can could have let us about. Oh

25:19

yes, a meme meme his name. A

25:21

sad song I've written. We're in love

25:23

as the satisfy. I mean yes. The

25:25

on represent oh you're a lot of

25:27

sad loaded on. Is a middling you

25:29

don't need to be like V

25:31

hopefulness of that song. Is.

25:34

The most. What something? Nicer Box memory

25:36

and legates and I target the it's

25:38

not a dirge, it's a. I.

25:41

Think that even your perspective on that song and our

25:43

perspective on a thong and ten years will look back

25:45

to be like. Or

25:47

burned. Him

25:49

like I do. For the i

25:51

just like I don't want to mix up

25:53

emotionality and sadness. You're a ike and event

25:55

like. you were about to say bombs what yeah

25:58

give you a day is obviously an That is

26:00

a little sad. You tell me first thing, I guess

26:02

you need to

26:08

ask your question. I

26:12

can't play without you

26:15

and I'm so blind.

26:20

Yeah, but I think you could say that about any of our

26:22

discography as well. The

26:25

listener is adding a certain amount

26:27

of their own projection to it

26:29

too. I think that Sad

26:31

Girl Lindy Rock... Basically

26:42

I'll just say this little tidbit,

26:44

which is I think that it's

26:46

a big emotion that people can

26:49

take in and relate to, but it's

26:51

also powerless and so it's palatable. Anger

26:54

would be more powerful, but

26:57

angry girl music kind of

26:59

gets cast as horny. Maybe

27:04

there is good angry girl music, obviously. Bloody

27:09

motherfucking asshole by Martha Lane, right?

27:11

About her dad? Whoa. I

27:28

thought it was friggin tight. I immediately went

27:30

to Fiona. Yeah. I

27:46

bristle at the idea of being a

27:48

neolib wet dream, of being like a

27:50

feminine... I

27:53

shouldn't get into this. Feminism

27:56

on a shirt at Target. You

28:00

know what I mean? Like that. I like

28:02

want this to be so clear of that

28:04

and the sad girl. I don't know why, they're in the same soup

28:08

and I don't know. Also it

28:10

feels like the argument is

28:12

trite at the point that

28:14

it's been discussed so much about like why

28:16

there's a double standard for like women

28:19

disclosing emotion and it being always

28:21

interpreted as sadness instead of just

28:23

emotionality. But then I'm also like

28:25

who's not, life is suffering. Like

28:28

that's the first noble truth. Who's

28:30

not out here? Like that genre

28:33

doesn't exist, it's music. It's about like

28:35

three things. It's about like love, politics

28:37

and suffering. I

28:39

will end on like

28:42

the power of friendship. Which

28:46

is that I think

28:48

through this music it

28:50

is very, very clear how close you all are and

28:52

how much you are leaning on each other in a

28:54

very positive way. In

28:56

the pandemic I like revisited Bell Hook's

28:58

Communion. I don't know if

29:01

you've read that, but like really

29:03

just like how much creative romantic

29:05

friendship matters. I'm wondering

29:08

what you have learned from one

29:10

another about being

29:14

a better friend. This

29:17

is a low blow for you to ask. This is.

29:20

Again. Didn't you say they were cueing

29:22

us? Super high therapy. Yeah. A

29:25

light to leave. I think

29:28

showing up and continuing

29:30

to show up goes

29:32

a long way. It seems really obvious,

29:34

but our

29:37

time is scarce. And so when y'all give me your

29:39

time and I give it

29:41

back that is in itself a

29:44

lesson in like how

29:47

closeness happens, you know? Like it's

29:49

not just like you

29:51

want it and so you have it. It's that you actually

29:53

have to show up and make

29:56

the time and the space. And

29:59

I think part of it is part of showing up

30:01

is like inviting

30:03

each other in almost

30:05

a nosy way into

30:07

each other's lives. Like just

30:09

having the confidence to ask how

30:13

we are. I think we all kind of like

30:15

pull each other from each other

30:17

in a way that feels good. I think

30:19

I've had to spend a lot of

30:21

my life cultivating closeness and

30:24

intimacy and friendship. Like

30:26

I came from an abusive household and

30:28

just the things that I learned about

30:30

what it is to be close to people. It

30:32

was just like, oh you just have to try really hard

30:35

to connect or something.

30:37

And around the time that

30:39

y'all came into my life, I

30:41

was thinking about that kind of

30:43

for the first time. And also like it

30:46

was so nice to be like,

30:48

oh I actually no question

30:51

just immediately love you

30:53

and care about you and it doesn't even feel like a choice. You

30:56

know what I mean? Like if either of you had a crisis

30:58

or wanted to talk, it wouldn't be like,

31:00

that's what a friend would do. And I can do

31:02

that. It's like I want nothing

31:04

more than to show up

31:06

and care. Yeah.

31:09

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

31:12

I was like, better think

31:14

of something good. No,

31:17

I think I've been asking for y'all's

31:19

help more. We're like

31:21

just saying just a little bit

31:23

more, but I'm working on it. I

31:28

think for someone to be like,

31:31

I have trust issues is like who amongst us.

31:33

But it's like, do you trust a

31:36

person not to have to manage their perception of

31:38

you? Can you be at peace

31:41

with them? And like, I feel

31:43

so fiercely protective of both of you that

31:46

I will redact pieces

31:49

of myself. And then I'm like,

31:51

no, that's not actually what they

31:53

want to happen. I should talk about what is

31:55

going on instead of try to like fix the

31:57

internal issue and then bring it to you because

31:59

I'm trying to. do you use the kindness

32:01

of not adding to like whatever is going

32:03

on like finding out that y'all are signed

32:05

up for the

32:08

Difficult stuff to makes the

32:10

difficult stuff less difficult and

32:13

teaches me how to ask for help like,

32:15

you know Well,

32:25

thank you for talking thanks for letting us

32:27

talk at you Yeah, and it

32:29

was beautiful The

32:42

pitch mark review is a production of Conde Nast

32:44

Boy Genius's latest album is called the

32:47

record and you can read all about

32:49

it on pitch work.com Catherine

32:52

Fennelosa at Rococo punch is our

32:54

senior producer James trout at

32:56

Rococo punch is our technical producer Our

33:00

engineer is Gabe Kiroga Ryan

33:02

Dombal is our showrunner and Jessica.

33:04

Cremolia is our music supervisor. I'm

33:07

future I Am

33:20

Alex Schwartz, I'm Nomi Fry. I'm

33:22

Vincent Cunningham And this is critics at

33:25

large a New Yorker podcast for the

33:27

culturally curious each week We're gonna

33:29

talk about a big idea that showing up across

33:31

the cultural landscape and we'll trace it through

33:33

all the mediums We love books movie television

33:36

music art and I always want to talk

33:38

about celebrity gossip too, of course What

33:41

are you guys excited to cover in the next few

33:43

months? There's a new a translation of the Elliott

33:45

that's coming up Emily Wilson I'm really excited to

33:48

see whether I can read the Elliott again, whether

33:50

I'm that literate. I'm I mean the jury of

33:52

act I can't wait to

33:54

hear Adam Driver go again at an Italian

33:56

accent and Michael Mann's Ferrari. He can't stop

33:58

I mean and and but I can't

34:00

wait. Molto bene. Molto bene.

34:05

We hope you'll join us for new episodes each Thursday.

34:08

Follow Critics at Large today wherever you

34:10

get podcasts. You really don't

34:12

want to miss this. Don't. Don't

34:15

miss this. Don't miss it.