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America's classic movie and TV authority

0:38

since nineteen eighty seven. that's

0:41

TCM dot com code

0:43

TCM.

0:44

It

0:45

really is a different between white Newman and

0:48

black women. And I've dated both. Yes,

0:50

I have.

0:53

During the nineteen seventies, Richard

0:55

Pryor was the biggest comedian on

0:57

the planet. But why won't we take

0:59

more shit? Like, give me at home, you know, and shit. You

1:01

get ready go out and you said, I'm going out, baby.

1:03

Take it easy. Okay.

1:05

That's fine, dulu.

1:09

You said I tell black woman, bitch start

1:11

dressing too. Richard

1:14

delivered that joke in nineteen seventy five.

1:17

The next year, he met Pam Greer.

1:19

Freddie Prins introduced them. First

1:21

time I met him, it was with

1:24

Freddie. We like to see him and

1:26

get some liquid cocaine.

1:27

Richard was a known womanizer.

1:30

PAM PIKED HIS INTEREST.

1:31

THE FEELING WAS NOT MUTUAL.

1:34

HE HAD ACTNEY. BAD

1:36

ACTNEY. AND I WANTED

1:38

TO SAY THAT I DIDN'T You're

1:40

a lot smaller than I thought

1:42

you were, a lot skinnier.

1:46

Richard Pryor owned guns. He

1:48

spent time in Paul, and he

1:50

had a drug problem. I've

1:53

snotted cocaine for about fifteen years.

1:56

I must have snotted up Peru. This

1:59

comedy

1:59

was about drugs, crime,

2:02

police, and sex. And you

2:04

can wear a sexual fantasy suit when

2:06

you'd be on gold. He mocked

2:08

both bigots and the black community.

2:11

He did skits about slavery. No

2:13

topic was taboo. No words were

2:15

off limits. It was totally

2:17

unpredictable.

2:22

Richard was a performer who didn't

2:24

bright. But what he did

2:26

do is he had a lot of,

2:28

we'll call them premises. Okay?

2:31

Rich worked off a bullet points.

2:33

is Rocco or TCM. He

2:36

produced Richard Pryor's TV specials.

2:38

So

2:38

when you wrote for Richard, you gave him

2:40

premises. and

2:41

he would take it another level. He'd

2:43

explode it TCM another level. Ladies

2:46

and gentlemen, Richard Pryor.

2:50

His album sold millions, his

2:52

TV appearances were legendary. And

2:54

in nineteen seventy seven, he got his

2:56

first lead role in a movie. Playing

3:00

Wendell Scott, a bootlegger who

3:02

became the first black driver in

3:04

NASCAR. Warner Brothers presents

3:06

Richard Pryor.

3:07

in Greased Lightning.

3:10

Greased Lightning was a big budget production

3:13

and a huge opportunity for Richard

3:15

Pryor. He

3:16

could have cast anyone he wanted as

3:18

his co star.

3:20

He wanted Pam Greer.

3:36

I'm your host, Ben Mankowitz. You're listening

3:38

to season four of the Thickens, a podcast

3:40

from Turner Classic movies. This

3:42

season, Pam Greer, and

3:44

how she rose to become the queen of black

3:47

exploitation films, and Hollywood's

3:49

first action hero. This

3:52

is episode six. I'm

3:55

gonna die for Paul Newman.

4:06

In Greased Lightning, Pam was cast

4:08

as Mary. WIFE OF RACE CAR DRIVER

4:11

SCOTT. IT WAS A SUPPORTING Paul, BUT

4:13

IT WAS HER FIRST ROLE FOR A MAJOR

4:15

STUDIO, WARNER BROTHER'S. The

4:18

movie was shot in the south about an

4:20

hour outside Atlanta. When

4:22

Pam landed in Georgia, the producers

4:24

asked her to go visit Richard Pryor.

4:27

say hi to the star. When she

4:29

got there, he was throwing a party for

4:31

the crew. He

4:32

rented a big house, a farm with

4:34

a pond,

4:34

It had, like, a crappies

4:36

and sunfish and maybe some bass

4:38

or something. And he was teaching the

4:41

crew and cast how to catch

4:43

fish for a fish fry

4:45

Paul wasn't in a partying mood,

4:48

but she knew how to fish.

4:49

Apparently, Richard did not.

4:52

I knew that he was not teaching people how

4:54

to tiehook onto lions and sneakers.

4:56

So I went over and showed him how to do and he says,

4:58

do you know how to do that? Yeah.

5:00

Have you ever been

5:01

fishing for catfish in the North and Platte

5:03

River or this and that, where you're fishing

5:05

for sunfish, crappie, or he

5:07

goes, he goes, wow, wow.

5:10

You know, he was so impressed that I knew about

5:12

that. Said, I don't know any black women

5:14

that knew anything about fishing. and

5:16

I

5:16

said, what you do now?

5:21

By the time Pam joined the production,

5:23

Greece lightning was already several

5:25

weeks behind schedule. The main

5:27

reason was Richard Pryor.

5:30

He'd show up late to the set or

5:32

not show up at all. When he was

5:34

there, he didn't know his lines.

5:36

The studio fired the director, Melvin

5:39

Van Peebles, and came a new

5:41

director Michael Schultz, who had worked

5:43

with Richard before. I

5:45

think they were about at least

5:47

one third or maybe half

5:49

finish shooting. And

5:51

when I get there on

5:53

location, Melvin is

5:56

addressing the crew and introducing

5:58

me and the crew

5:59

wants to walk because

6:02

they're backing. Melvin.

6:04

And Melvin said, no. No. No. No. This is

6:06

a good brother, you know. one,

6:08

stay here, finish the

6:10

film. And then

6:13

Richard presents me

6:15

with a gift. Right?

6:17

a thirty thirty rifle,

6:19

you know,

6:22

the kind that you the westerns

6:24

were you caught the thing. and

6:26

it's engraved. I

6:27

hope you shoot this better than you

6:29

shoot movies because

6:32

we're enjoying the blast.

6:36

Michael Schultz had no idea what

6:38

he'd gotten himself into. Richard

6:41

Pryor was only one of his problems.

6:43

The locals didn't want this Hollywood

6:45

production with a black director and

6:47

a black cast and crew in

6:49

their backyard.

6:52

So my very first day of shooting,

6:55

we're shooting in the house, and I'm working with

6:57

Richard, and I'm working with Pam and

6:59

Beau Bridges. and

7:01

the house was a couple of

7:04

doors down from a automobile

7:06

repair facility. And

7:08

every time they would hear action,

7:14

they would rev up the engines

7:16

and they would make as much noise as they

7:18

could. And so

7:21

I had to change the

7:23

TCM, so I told the crew when

7:26

I say cut, that's

7:27

action. And

7:30

when I say action, that's cut.

7:32

And

7:32

we got through the dance

7:34

shooting without the good old boys,

7:37

figuring it out.

7:41

One day, they were supposed to shoot a wedding

7:44

scene, a short moment in the film

7:46

where Pam and Richard get married.

7:47

Pam's wearing a white floor length

7:50

wedding dress, long sleeves, heavy

7:52

fabric.

7:53

The location was a small church,

7:55

no air conditioning. The

7:56

extras had fans to cool themselves.

7:59

Pam

7:59

was stuck holding a bouquet of

8:02

flowers.

8:04

I'm on the set waiting for mister

8:07

Pryor. Where

8:08

is he?

8:09

We're waiting for mister Pryor.

8:12

Why? Go

8:14

get mister Pryor. Get

8:17

him out here now. He

8:19

comes out to this set.

8:22

Everyone's hot and fatigued.

8:26

He comes on this and said, hey.

8:29

Yeah. Okay. You

8:31

ready rehearse?

8:33

Yeah. Sure.

8:35

No.

8:36

Richard didn't know his lines. he

8:39

could tell Pam was fuming.

8:42

So

8:42

he picks up a cooking fork

8:44

that's in the kitchen. and

8:46

he does like this to my face and my

8:48

eyes. Pam

8:49

is gesturing with an imaginary fork.

8:52

Richard

8:52

waved the fork right in front

8:55

of her poking it in her direction.

8:57

He's

8:58

like that far away from my face.

9:01

And I explode on

9:04

him in front of everybody.

9:06

I knock it out of his

9:09

hands and I curses

9:11

ass out. And I said, how

9:13

dare you keep us waiting for you

9:15

all day?

9:16

Who do you think you are? You

9:19

about to put all of us out of work. I

9:22

I went read him

9:23

the riot act.

9:26

And I said, Go

9:28

learn your lines and I'm

9:30

leaving the set and I'll come back

9:32

when you're ready. I

9:34

walked off the set and the crew

9:36

applauded. I guess

9:38

she told me. Pam

9:40

goes straight to her trailer. She

9:43

slams the door and strips off the

9:45

wedding dress. covered

9:47

in sweat. All

9:48

my clothes are hanging up everywhere

9:50

trying to dry out, and

9:52

so I get a knock on the door.

9:54

miss Paul miss

9:56

Pam, Richard Pryor said he's ready.

9:58

So I hardly get dressed

9:59

before he changes his mind. Richard is

10:03

waiting for her at the altar. He's

10:04

in costume wearing a tuxedo.

10:07

The crew is silent.

10:09

waiting

10:09

to see what happens next.

10:12

And

10:12

he didn't apologize, and he says,

10:14

I'm ready. He said, I'm ready. I learned my lines.

10:16

I'm ready to go. he started calling

10:18

me, like, coffee, foxy brown. He was like, you know,

10:20

he's getting his own. He was doing his

10:22

thing. And I just stood there, and I

10:24

said, let's go.

10:27

And

10:27

if you do this again, don't

10:29

worry about me coming to the

10:31

set. I

10:33

ain't playing with y'all ass.

10:35

And that's

10:36

when he said, that's when I fell in love with

10:38

Debit.

10:45

Coming

10:48

up, opposites attract

10:51

when Pam tries to save Richard

10:53

from himself.

11:04

I've been

11:05

doing this podcast thing for a little

11:07

while now, and it's been fun.

11:09

I highly recommend it.

11:11

If you're interested in getting into it

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13:29

They're

13:31

gonna kill you, Wendell? And that's the

13:34

truth. The truth

13:34

is, man. I'm trying to lie to you, and I'm

13:37

trying to lie to myself. I'm

13:39

gonna be

13:39

a race car driver.

13:42

After

13:42

the wedding scene, Pam started to

13:45

respect Richard. She enjoyed his

13:47

company especially in the morning. he

13:49

was gentle, humble. That's

13:51

before he went to his trailer and

13:53

got high with his friends. They

13:56

were playing a married couple, a surefire

13:58

recipe for romance.

14:00

Their scenes together were electric.

14:02

Well, they had the chemistry. So all they

14:05

had to do was say the right words.

14:08

I don't think they worked hard to

14:10

hide it. No.

14:12

They were a hot item.

14:14

Their affair wasn't planned, but

14:17

it certainly helped the movie.

14:19

to win Pam's heart, Richard

14:21

behaved like a professional. I

14:23

think that Pam was

14:26

like the organic

14:28

queen.

14:29

she was really cleansing,

14:32

Richard. And he was

14:34

all into it. I mean, he was so in love

14:36

with her. that she

14:38

stopped him smoking. He

14:40

wasn't drinking. He was on a real

14:43

healthy kick. And I'm looking at

14:45

this and say, wow. this is great.

14:47

I hope it keeps

14:49

up. So she was a real good influence

14:51

on you.

14:52

When Greece lightning wrapped, PAM

14:54

RICHARD CONTINUED TO SEE EACH OTHER.

14:56

THEY WERE

14:57

AN UNLIKELY COUPLE. PAM,

14:59

THE COUNTRY GIRL, WHO WAS HAPPiest

15:01

WITH HER HORTES, and Richard

15:03

Pryor, who

15:04

told jokes about his cocaine

15:06

addiction. I'll start off smart little

15:08

tiny pinches. said, I know I ain't gonna

15:10

get hooked. I don't know, hope. You can't get

15:12

hooked. My friends have been smart in fifteen TCM. They

15:15

ain't hooked.

15:21

That's not a little teeny didn't TCM make

15:23

noise? Six

15:25

months later.

15:28

Richard's greatest talent,

15:30

I think, was finding

15:33

a way to express

15:35

in humor very

15:37

painful things that were going on

15:40

in his life,

15:41

and he

15:42

was able to laugh at it. and

15:44

make you laugh at it, and it crossed

15:47

all racial

15:48

barriers. It went right to

15:50

the heart of human condition.

15:52

Richard was

15:54

very, very vulnerable. In

15:57

nineteen seventy seven, Richard Pryor was

16:00

at a crossroads. He was only

16:02

thirty six but he'd been doing

16:04

drugs for decades. His

16:06

body couldn't take the abuse anymore.

16:08

He told Pam he wanted to

16:10

get clean.

16:15

Richard had a difficult childhood.

16:17

His mother was a sex worker,

16:19

his

16:19

father, a pimp, We

16:21

lived in a, I guess, you call it a brothel.

16:23

We call it a horror house. Yep.

16:25

This is Richard on the Dick

16:27

Cabot Show. I had

16:29

a problem with that finding

16:31

out that people lived another way.

16:33

When I got to grown and

16:35

we moved, and I met kids that

16:37

didn't know about that at all. I didn't

16:39

talk like I talked. Mhmm. I didn't I

16:41

I couldn't understand it. It took

16:43

me a while to stop hitting on their

16:46

mothers.

16:46

Yes.

16:49

He

16:49

was raised by his grandmother, she owned

16:51

the brothel. He was deprived

16:53

of things most kids take for

16:55

granted. I had

16:56

a bike on the bike rack of my

16:58

car, my jaguar. And he

17:01

said, you know, I never had a bike. I

17:03

would love to have

17:03

a bike. I wanna

17:05

learn how to ride a bike.

17:07

I said, okay, let's go down

17:08

and then buy you a bike. So we went

17:10

down TCM Venice Beach to a bike shop, and

17:12

I told this this young man that, you know, can

17:14

we fit him up with a bike? and

17:16

we did. And

17:17

when he got on that bike and

17:20

wanted to try in front of me knowing he's

17:22

gonna

17:22

and the guy held the back, why

17:25

he pedaled In that instant, he

17:27

found his balance. And

17:30

he looked he wouldn't stop. He just kept

17:32

cycling. And

17:35

everyone in this shot,

17:37

we were just like

17:40

seeing him change. Let's

17:42

go let's go down the

17:44

bike then. Come on. Let's go let's ride when I and

17:46

he said, but don't tell my homies. She saw me

17:49

on the bike. guys that I won't tell

17:51

her. But

17:51

he loved

17:53

it. Pam

17:54

put Richard on a strict TCM.

17:56

No more sleeping until two in

17:59

the afternoon. From

17:59

now on, they got up at seven, had

18:01

a healthy breakfast, and played

18:03

tennis. It may sound strange,

18:06

but biking and eating oatmeal

18:08

together helped Richard open up to It brought

18:10

them

18:10

close. He accepted

18:12

my gift of teaching

18:14

him

18:14

And would he have done

18:16

that with a man? No.

18:18

He didn't. He allowed

18:20

me in so

18:22

that

18:22

made me feel connected.

18:25

Pam learned things

18:26

about Richard that he had kept

18:29

secret. like

18:30

the real reason he never knew his lines.

18:32

I found out

18:33

Richard could not read. He could

18:35

only learn his lines phonetically,

18:37

so he

18:39

had a problem with rehearsing and reading

18:42

his lines over and over and over

18:45

again.

18:46

Bam helped

18:47

Richard learn to read, but

18:50

Richard

18:50

wasn't always easy to be around.

18:52

He was temperamental and competitive.

18:55

Time magazine

18:55

reported Paul Pam once beat

18:58

Richard and tennis to games in a

19:00

row. After that,

19:02

he

19:02

wouldn't speak to her for a day. And he

19:04

had a habit of isolating the people

19:06

he loved. Paul he in love with

19:09

him?

19:09

with

19:10

At times, not

19:12

consistently. There are days that you just say, I choose

19:15

you in days.

19:16

I don't choose you today.

19:22

Okay.

19:22

I'm gonna share a story with you.

19:24

This is

19:24

Rocco or TCM, Richard's TV

19:27

producer. I got a

19:28

call on a Sunday afternoon.

19:30

So my phone rang, I

19:32

hear Rocco. Rocco, could you

19:34

come out and visit? I said, sure. Okay,

19:36

Rich? Yeah. Yeah. Come out. Can

19:38

you? Sure. So

19:41

drill out

19:41

the north Rich, the gate

19:43

is open. I pull

19:45

into the driveway. There's no cars

19:47

there just hit his yellow rose voice. I

19:49

walk into the house, I take the

19:52

stairway up to the little

19:54

office we used to write in

19:57

as I'm walking up the stairs, I

19:59

hear.

20:01

More off to see there was

20:03

a TCM wonderful vision of

20:05

ours. I

20:08

walk into the room, he's

20:10

facing the TV laying down

20:12

on the couch. And on my desk

20:14

where you're sitting here with him was a glass of

20:17

cassettes. He waved to me.

20:19

They watched the

20:20

wizard of Oz, And

20:22

when it was done, you got up and you said, thanks

20:25

rock. Gave me a hug and

20:26

I went home. It was lonely.

20:28

Paul

20:30

great hours for long

20:33

wind.

20:38

After

20:39

Greased

20:42

Lightning, Richard Pryor went to work on

20:44

another movie with Michael Schultz called which

20:46

way is Richard Pryor. Oh,

20:48

no. Not only did

20:51

Richard star in the movie, he wrote

20:53

it with screenwriter, Carl Gonna.

20:56

Which way is so. Wow. I've

20:58

I've known Richard prior a long time. I didn't even

21:00

go back in comedy to Greenwich village

21:03

days. Richard lived

21:04

his life in cycles. He'd be healthy for a while,

21:06

and then he'd fall off the wagon and

21:09

start starting and shooting and

21:12

losing himself. So when I first met

21:14

him, he was depressive and doing

21:16

drugs. Next time I met him,

21:18

he was with

21:18

Pam and

21:20

being healthy. I often

21:22

wonder if if she considered him

21:24

like a rehabilitation project. Let

21:26

me see if I can take this

21:29

guy who's full of himself and he's

21:31

been, like, a, you know, self

21:33

destructive all star for so long.

21:35

Let me see if I can, you know, if I can get him

21:37

to eat. Right? play sports Paul pay

21:39

attention to his body and what he puts in

21:41

it.

21:42

Writing which way is up wasn't

21:45

easy. Richard was

21:46

full of ideas, but often

21:48

got distracted.

21:49

needed him to concentrate on

21:52

the screenplay. they decided to

21:54

leave the country to write in

21:56

isolation. Someone rented

21:57

us a villa in Barbados, where

21:59

my

21:59

wife and I and

22:02

Richard and Pam went

22:04

to live. We're sitting, like,

22:06

in the patio with lawn, lawn furniture and

22:08

this lush tropical vegetation

22:12

and I think it was a

22:14

catered bungalow, so I think there was

22:16

staff at least a housekeeper and

22:18

possibly a housekeeper and a cook. were

22:19

taken care of us. I mean,

22:21

it was kind of idyllic.

22:25

One

22:25

night in Barbados, the cook prepared a

22:27

meal with shellfish in it. PAM

22:28

IS ALURGIC TO SHELLFISH. SHE

22:31

HAD A TERRIBLE REACTION.

22:32

HER LIFPS IN HER TONG

22:34

SWelled UP AND SHE had difficulty

22:37

speaking TCM she had a rash over her

22:39

body and Richard Panic.

22:41

I mean, you didn't know what to do

22:43

is his only solution like,

22:45

some folk remedy from his

22:47

distant grandmother He

22:49

just, like, covered her in talcum powder.

22:52

which

22:52

you didn't help. He's

22:54

thinking

22:54

I'm gonna die. And

22:56

I

22:56

know I'm not gonna die. And

22:59

I feel

23:00

vulnerable that he's never been around

23:03

anyone sick, and

23:04

that is alarming

23:05

to me. because

23:07

he can't save me. I have to

23:09

save myself. The man

23:11

in

23:11

my life doesn't know enough

23:14

to save his child, his

23:17

children,

23:17

or me. Luckily, my wife

23:19

is one of those women who travels prepared

23:21

for any eventuality. So she

23:23

recognized what Pam was going through as an allergic

23:26

reaction. So my wife gave her some

23:28

Benadryl, a

23:30

simple antihistamine,

23:32

And within an hour or two, it cleared up. It was she was fine.

23:35

Pam

23:35

made a full recovery, but she never

23:37

forgot Richard's panicked response.

23:40

his

23:40

inability to act. I

23:42

realized

23:42

I would have more responsibility

23:45

in the relationship

23:48

with him. I could

23:49

be concerned if I ever

23:51

went away to work what

23:53

could happen to the horses or his

23:55

children or him.

23:56

The rest of

23:58

their time in Barbados was

24:01

uneventful. Carl and Richard finished the

24:03

screen blank. When they got back to Los

24:05

Angeles, Richard asked Pam to

24:07

move in with it.

24:08

Pam said no. He

24:11

was on

24:11

drinks, protein drinks, just

24:14

eating very healthy skin cleared up. He used

24:16

to have acne cleared up. His hair

24:18

started

24:18

going back. You know, and they didn't he

24:20

said, hey, I'm strong. I can invite my friends.

24:22

I think I said, are you sure? They're

24:24

pretty tough. What if they pull

24:26

out coke and get

24:27

you to drinking? No, that's not Gonna happen.

24:29

When I came home, it was happening.

24:32

He was

24:32

drinking. And there was a

24:34

line of coke on

24:37

the table

24:37

Pam

24:39

confronted Richard, she called him

24:42

out in

24:42

front of those friends.

24:44

are

24:44

your friends Gonna take care of you? They

24:47

don't bring food. They drink everything

24:49

up. What are they gonna do? And that's when

24:50

the brother said, You

24:51

gonna let your woman talk to you like

24:54

that. And Richard

24:57

looked over and saw the knives on

24:59

the sink, and he looked

25:01

at them. and then he looked at

25:03

me and he

25:03

said, I've known

25:05

them longer than I've known you.

25:09

Richard had

25:12

fallen off the wagon hard.

25:18

Around this time, Pam went to the

25:21

gynecologist for a routine

25:23

checkup. The doctor called her into

25:25

his office and closed the

25:27

door. And

25:27

they said, is someone you're dating, doing

25:30

coke?

25:30

Maybe did for a

25:33

long time. BODY

25:35

HAVE START. I DON'T KNOW.

25:38

Reporter:

25:38

Paul HAD COCANE IN HER SYSTEM,

25:41

BUT

25:41

SHE NEVER DID DRUGS.

25:43

The

25:43

doctor told her it could have been sexually transmitted.

25:46

Pam

25:47

knew instantly it came from

25:50

Richard. he

25:50

talked about it in one of his most famous

25:53

routines. Somebody told

25:54

me you put it on your dick. You could fuck

25:56

all night. But shouldn't have told

25:59

me that. he had

25:59

been putting cocaine on his

26:02

genitals, on his penis,

26:04

and it was entering my body, and it

26:05

could have been through

26:07

his bloodstream. as well.

26:12

Pam

26:12

stopped sleeping with Richard, but

26:14

she didn't leave it. she hoped his latest

26:16

drug relapse was just a bump in

26:18

the road, but she could still change

26:21

him. She realized she was

26:23

wrong when Richard got a

26:25

horse. A

26:25

TV producer gave Richard a

26:28

miniature horse as a

26:30

gift. Her name was ginger.

26:32

Paul, a daughter. she

26:33

fed and cared for ginger in a stable

26:36

behind Richard's house, but

26:38

Richard also had dogs.

26:41

Pam warned Richard to keep them away from ginger.

26:43

He did for

26:44

a while.

26:45

a while Until one day

26:46

when the dogs got loose,

26:49

They ran

26:49

to the stable and pounced on

26:51

ginger. They formed a pack,

26:52

and she was bleeding her intestines were coming out.

26:54

She was attacked by Richard's dog.

26:57

dogs, too many dogs, they formed a and chased

26:59

her. She was prayed. Pam

27:01

was

27:01

in Richard's house. She heard the

27:03

attack and ran outside.

27:05

she quickly turned a hose on the dogs until

27:08

they ran off. Ginger

27:10

lay on the ground, all torn

27:12

up. needed medical attention

27:15

fast. Richard

27:15

was distraught and

27:17

completely unable to

27:20

help. you didn't own a horse trailer. Paul

27:22

took control. Okay. We are putting

27:24

the horse in the back seat of my car.

27:27

but

27:27

it's a jaguar. I know that's what we're doing. We're gonna

27:29

take the word to the vet. k. We got

27:31

it before she bleeds to death. And he

27:34

was

27:34

like crying. the

27:36

little boy failing. And I say, we're gonna do it. We're gonna

27:38

save Gonna life.

27:40

Pam and Richard Cram, Ginger,

27:42

into the Jaguar, TCM got

27:44

behind the wheel and peeled out of the

27:47

driveway. The horse was

27:49

bleeding on the seats. Their

27:51

head was out, the the one

27:53

side and tails out the other. And Richard's sitting in a friend's

27:55

seat. He's in his bath room and slippers

27:57

crying and sobbing. They

27:59

hit

27:59

the freeway. PAM floored

28:02

it. And the

28:04

whole car is weaving

28:06

because of the weight and

28:08

people watching us driving

28:09

there. It is black people in

28:11

a jaguar with a horse in the back seat going

28:13

down the 405

28:15

AND THEY WERE FOLLOWING US. THERE MUST

28:17

HAVE BEEN LIKE twenty,

28:18

thirty PEOPLE FOLLOWING US. THEY

28:23

PULLED UP TO THE ANIMAL HOSPITAL. Pam

28:25

had called ahead so the vets were expecting

28:27

the horse. They worked on ginger

28:29

for five hours, stitching her

28:31

up, treating her for shock.

28:34

Pam stayed by Richard's side the

28:36

whole time. He

28:37

sat there and he cried and they saved

28:39

her life. I helped

28:40

save the horse.

28:43

but I couldn't save

28:44

him.

28:45

the

28:52

final blow to Pam and Richard's

28:55

relationship took everyone by

28:57

surprise.

28:57

Rocco or found out at

29:00

work he

29:00

was producing Richard Pryor's NBC variety

29:02

show. He saw

29:03

Richard almost every day. When

29:07

Pam

29:07

and Richard were dating, He

29:09

came into my office I'm gonna be late for work tomorrow. I'm

29:11

getting married. I said,

29:13

well,

29:13

fantastic, man. Great. Don't come in.

29:17

No. I'll be in, but I'll be late in the afternoon. I

29:19

said, great, fantastic. So

29:21

I said, everybody, Richard's getting married.

29:23

So I had Jean. He

29:26

was our

29:26

prop master on prior what

29:28

a

29:28

fucking great guy he was. So Jean make

29:31

a big cake, man, just make

29:33

fucking big cake because

29:35

Richard's gonna show

29:36

up and we're gonna have cake. Rocco

29:38

told

29:38

Gene to write congratulations Richard

29:41

and Pam on the cake. That's

29:43

who he assumed Richard was

29:45

marrying. So I'm getting

29:46

dressed in the morning on NBC News as

29:48

Richard Pryor got married today and

29:50

never blah blah. The

29:52

news said that Richard's new wife was

29:54

named Deborah McGuire. So I

29:56

get back to

29:57

the studio and everybody's a

29:59

buzz one

30:00

of the other producers ran up to Rocco.

30:02

He had gotten

30:02

a call from Pam. So

30:04

Pam Grier

30:05

is coming over here to kill

30:07

Richard. Maybe what?

30:09

It's gonna drive over. It's gonna kill him.

30:11

So we gotta

30:14

have TCM. at the gating because

30:16

she showed up. Pam

30:17

didn't show up, but Richard

30:19

did. So in watch Richard

30:21

with this young girl,

30:23

And

30:23

I

30:24

forget there's a big cake that

30:26

says congratulations Richard and

30:29

Pam. And Gene starts

30:31

rolling it out. And

30:33

next to the cake is

30:35

a prop table with a lot of

30:37

plastic flowers. I

30:38

picked them up and I jammed them in

30:41

the cake. just jammed it with

30:43

it Richard and and Pam. I

30:45

just jammed the flowers in the middle of the

30:47

cake. Gene laughed, we rolled the

30:49

cake out, and that was it.

30:54

Richard's

30:54

marriage lasted just a few months

30:56

as marriages tended to

30:59

end quickly. Richard

31:00

reached out to Pam once more,

31:02

several years later. It

31:03

was at his lowest point, but

31:06

Pam wasn't having it. She was

31:08

done with Richard

31:10

Pryor.

31:16

After the

31:22

break, Pam returns to

31:25

the movies. by playing a murderer.

31:38

I've been doing this podcast thing for a

31:40

little while now Newman it's

31:42

been fun. I highly recommend

31:44

it. If

31:44

you're interested in getting into it

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and doing it right, here's a pro tip.

31:49

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31:51

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31:53

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32:00

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32:01

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32:03

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32:10

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32:18

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32:22

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34:01

TCM.

34:07

Drivers in your car

34:09

Greased lightning opened in July of

34:12

nineteen seventy

34:13

seven. It wasn't a hit. Part

34:15

of the reason was timing.

34:17

that

34:17

summer was dominated by two

34:19

other movies, Star Wars and

34:22

Smokey

34:22

and The Bandit. Pam

34:24

was twenty eight years TCM, her acting career

34:27

suddenly stalled. A

34:30

lot of

34:30

black creative talent

34:33

wasn't really given the kind

34:35

of appreciation or do that

34:38

they should have

34:40

been given. there was nothing being

34:42

written for actors of real

34:44

talent, male and female, but

34:46

TCM female.

34:48

Sometimes

34:48

Pam was told to show up at auditions wearing a

34:51

bikini. She refused. Movie

34:53

rolls

34:54

weren't coming in, So

34:57

Pam turned to TV. She landed a small role in

34:59

the mini series roots TCM

35:02

next generations.

35:03

and on an

35:04

episode of the Love Book.

35:13

One

35:14

morning in nineteen

35:17

eighty, Pam went jogging in Santa Monica

35:19

where she was recognized by a

35:21

fellow jogger, an

35:22

agent.

35:23

I was running this stage, she said,

35:25

you're paying per you know what? We've

35:27

been looking for someone who's built

35:29

like you, sharp like you, for

35:31

Paul Newman Paul. Do you have an

35:33

agent? And I said, oh, kind

35:35

of. Not really. I haven't been working.

35:37

I just don't

35:38

Gonna work for a

35:40

while. The Paul

35:42

Newman movie

35:42

was Fort Apache, TCM Bronx,

35:45

a police drama set in

35:47

New York's toughest neighborhood. Paul Newman

35:49

was famous for playing charming outlaws in movies like Butch Cassidy and

35:51

The Sundance Kid, The TCM, and

35:54

Cool Hand

35:56

Luke. Now he was playing a cop. The role producers

35:58

couldn't cast the role they

36:00

wanted Pam for was

36:02

a villain A

36:04

violent sex worker addicted to heroin. Parts

36:06

of the role were cliched, but

36:09

Pam took it seriously. She

36:11

didn't

36:11

want to be just another

36:14

stereotype. I ain't

36:15

a chunky, seriously hard.

36:18

you

36:18

Gonna observe, junkies, you gotta observe that. That's not

36:21

a role you just step

36:22

into and and put on like a hat.

36:26

I

36:26

said, if I can get

36:28

the time to study this

36:31

character

36:31

TCM weeks.

36:32

Okay. I'll

36:34

do it. I'll do it.

36:36

I'll prepare. Pam

36:38

lived by that credo. An actor

36:41

is always prepared. She learned that early

36:43

on when Roger Cormen gave her that book by

36:46

Stanislavsky. She still needed to

36:48

audition

36:48

for Port Apache Paul

36:50

Bronx the role wasn't

36:52

hers yet. So she took her

36:54

preparation to the next level. I went

36:56

to

36:56

New York and put me up

36:59

Pam's

36:59

first stop

37:01

was a sex shop. There

37:03

were plenty of those in New York.

37:05

She bought a blonde

37:07

wig, red stockings, Garter Belt and Stilettos. Then

37:10

she toured Manhattan, visiting

37:12

the sketchiest parts of the city.

37:14

TCM scary. I

37:17

did go to Avenue ten, near

37:20

the trucks, and hook grooves, and eight and

37:22

nine, Newman Hill's kitchen, and I went

37:24

to

37:24

junkies, places, heroin, houses,

37:26

and stuff, and observed.

37:28

It was fucking scary. TCM

37:31

went back to her hotel room and locked

37:34

the door.

37:36

She stayed

37:36

there for the next few days, She

37:39

cut her skirt short. She kept herself up

37:41

at night with caffeine and sugar.

37:44

She

37:44

didn't shower. She barely

37:46

slept. And when she did, she slept

37:48

on the floor. The night before her

37:50

audition, she ate a whole cherry

37:52

pie. The next morning,

37:54

morning She felt like crap, but

37:57

she looked the part. She

37:59

stumbled out

37:59

of

37:59

the hotel in

38:02

full costume. My

38:03

red stockings were showing, my

38:05

guard

38:05

about my ass, my

38:07

shirt skirt, my blind wig,

38:09

my hello sailor dress, and my

38:11

fuck me pumps. Paul police pulled up and asked me how

38:13

for a date. The

38:15

audition was at

38:17

the Minskoff Theatre, one

38:19

of the fanciest theaters on Broadway.

38:22

Security stopped her at the

38:24

door. They weren't gonna let me into

38:26

the building. because I

38:27

look like I was a

38:30

drunken heroin addicted killer

38:32

and they

38:32

wouldn't let me. I said,

38:35

no, would you please Tell

38:37

them. Pompano. No. No. Pam Greer is here. And the sister said,

38:39

oh, you ain't no Pam Greer. I

38:42

said, I

38:44

know. It's been a long

38:46

day. I really am. Please,

38:48

I'm here to see them

38:50

for

38:50

an audition. I

38:52

laughed so hard. I almost

38:54

broke my character just her attitude. You know, she

38:57

I thought she's gonna beat me up and kick me

38:59

out the

38:59

door for trying to be

39:02

Greer. and say my name is Pamper, and

39:04

get it. Oh, no. You ain't bitch. I'm whoop. You

39:06

ain't no Pamper. I know who Pamper. I

39:08

know she looked like. I didn't Gonna get

39:11

into

39:11

that. She was a big sister.

39:13

Pam convinced them to call the

39:15

producer who said yes, we're expecting

39:17

Pam Greer and they let her through to

39:19

the production office.

39:22

The

39:22

hallway was packed with actresses, all of them auditioning for

39:24

the same part. We had a couple

39:27

we had at least two days of

39:29

people, so maybe that's ten

39:31

people to it, maybe twenty, maybe twenty

39:34

five? That's Haywood Gould.

39:36

He wrote Fort Apache TCM Bronx.

39:38

Pam

39:39

calls him woody. I

39:40

remember I came in in the morning and on the audition

39:43

list, and I saw her name was on

39:45

it, which

39:45

was great. I was a big fan of

39:47

hers from the seventies movies. I

39:50

said, this is great. But

39:51

then when we started the auditions, I went

39:53

outside, look outside, she wasn't there. So I

39:55

thought, I actually blew off the audition,

39:57

doesn't Gonna do it or whatever. And

39:59

then the

40:00

casting that TCM plancko said, okay, now

40:02

I'm gonna go on and get And she

40:04

came in. I guess she'd been hiding,

40:07

did wait wait to see her. She wanted to, you know, have a

40:09

shock effect, which she did have. I didn't knock on the door.

40:11

I kicked the door. You

40:14

kicked it open? No. I just kicked on

40:15

it three times. I didn't knock on it. It was

40:17

a lady knocks. Knocked. Knocked. Knocked. No.

40:20

I'll kick the

40:22

damn door. would he

40:23

go the writer before the pastor answers

40:25

the door, and he goes,

40:28

oh, wow. Hey, Pam. How

40:28

are you? How was your trip? How was

40:30

your flight? Oh, shut the fuck up. I ain't

40:32

flown anywhere. Who's in the room?

40:35

Paul Newman, Dan Petrie, the director,

40:37

and David Suskind. David Suskind

40:39

was the producer. And so

40:41

she came in dressed as a

40:44

part as the character. Tolding

40:46

character wardrobe make up the whole

40:48

thing crazy, you know, junky, you know,

40:50

flipped out and really terrorized the whole room, including

40:52

me. And, I mean, her reading was

40:56

unreal. Everyone watched

40:56

while Haywood did the audition with Pam.

40:59

He read off the script.

41:01

Pam had it memorized.

41:02

an added memorize

41:04

you're gonna read with

41:05

Woody. Okay. Here we go. You know how to read motherfucker? She had

41:07

sent out. She was frightening. She came right up to

41:09

me and kind of, you

41:11

know, waved to I mean, there

41:13

was no knife on her hand, but she was waving

41:16

her her hand right in front of me. I said,

41:17

we're gonna start here. I said, okay. We'll do

41:19

the lines. And then the rest is off

41:22

book. Okay?

41:22

because I'm a shoot up in here.

41:24

She was

41:24

completely intense. She was in the role, and we

41:28

were gay

41:30

George. silent

41:32

during this audition. I

41:35

do

41:35

the lines. I'm not finished

41:37

now. The dialogue

41:40

is finished. And I sit, I do a lab dance of

41:42

what he goes, laugh, and he

41:44

drops the book,

41:45

and everybody's

41:47

laughing.

41:49

And I'm saying, just put

41:50

the book over your crush. We don't

41:53

see anything, you know. You're okay.

41:56

I gave him a pure ass, left ass.

41:58

She came she was

41:59

very very

41:59

close to me and she did put her arms around

42:02

my neck me at one point, you know, and

42:04

she's like

42:06

a snake. but

42:06

she caught herself a snake in

42:08

the scene. Did she ever see a

42:10

snake?

42:15

and

42:15

I shoot up, continue the

42:18

scene, ad living, and then I

42:20

just lean up

42:20

against the wall, I get high.

42:22

and I start nodding out and I

42:24

slide down nice to the floor and I

42:27

pass out and Paul

42:29

Newman

42:29

starts Paul. what

42:32

he say at

42:33

the end of it? He says you got the fart I said, can I

42:35

call my mom? Yes, you can

42:37

call your mom because we

42:39

want you here. For rehearsal, the whole time, we'll send you

42:41

back home to get your stuff send you back in, you'll be here for,

42:43

like, ten weeks. That's gotta

42:46

be validating.

42:46

there's gotta be valid

42:48

Gonna feel good. More

42:49

than that. More than that.

42:51

Because you you make these

42:53

choices of making an absolute

42:55

full of yourself.

42:58

I just

42:58

felt that I had breathed

43:01

some energy into this

43:03

character, some life Pam

43:05

told

43:05

her friends the good news she had

43:08

landed the role of Charlotte, the

43:10

killer

43:10

junkie. Their reaction

43:12

was nearly

43:14

unanimous. Don't take

43:15

the part. If you're a movie star, you don't get killed, you

43:16

don't die. You shouldn't die. You shouldn't die. You shouldn't

43:18

be the icon of the movie star. They never die

43:21

TCM realize shut up. TCM

43:24

gonna die

43:25

for Paul Newman.

43:30

Production started right away

43:33

on Ford Apache. Pam had

43:35

rehearsals, costume fittings, hair and

43:37

makeup tests. In her spare

43:39

time, She watched Paul Newman work. Now

43:41

he studied every word, how he'd

43:43

tweak his delivery on

43:46

each take. Pam had

43:48

been a star. Her personal life was

43:50

in magazines. She was recognized

43:52

on the street. But working

43:54

with Paul Newman, This was

43:56

something else. This was no B

43:58

movie. This was a chance to

43:59

prove herself as an actress. A

44:01

chance to earn some

44:04

real respect. She plays this menacing hooker. She goes

44:06

through the movie just, you know,

44:08

wiping people

44:10

out.

44:13

she starts the movie by coming to cops,

44:15

and it's a really important moment because

44:17

I think that the audience was now

44:20

new Newman they were getting

44:22

themselves into. when she plays this terrorizing scene and she shoots these

44:24

two cops. And so she actually

44:26

sets the tone for what's

44:28

to follow. and

44:29

totally steals TCM picture. You have been

44:32

partying, baby? See, I've been

44:34

partying all the time.

44:36

I'm a potty girl. Well,

44:39

She improved the line in the first scene, which

44:42

is she's supposed to

44:43

say to the cops

44:46

That's not my job. That's the line I wrote. We're on the job. And she

44:49

said Yeah. I'm on my

44:51

JOB

44:51

too. And that became

44:53

a worker, I guess, what

44:55

you'd call a Paul. Everybody went around TCM set.

44:58

If you tell somebody to do

45:00

something, then go down. That's not my JOB.

45:03

She changed that line. It's a simple change that

45:05

a good actor can do when that actor

45:07

is in a character. And when the actor is

45:09

in a character as far as

45:12

Pam was, they really can't say anything wrong.

45:14

I love it. You

45:16

wanna go out? We knew

45:18

how great no one was gonna be and he is great.

45:20

And TCM, had

45:22

been

45:22

an exploitation movie. She'd been in movies when she was great, but to

45:25

go that deep into

45:26

a character as she did and

45:28

to perfor I mean, I can't tell

45:32

you how many people I've spoken to over the years

45:34

who told me, boy, that's a frightening

45:36

-- Wow.

45:38

-- where?

45:38

if I was selling TCM,

45:42

the the show couldn't afford

45:44

it.

45:44

But I'm

45:47

a give it up. Correct.

45:51

Pam had played killers

45:53

before, but this character

45:55

Charlotte, TCM Junkie, wasn't

45:57

just

45:57

damaged. She was

45:59

deranged. Getting into

46:00

that mindset left a mark.

46:03

I had nightmares for a while.

46:05

Charlotte

46:05

with the razor blades in her teeth, killing a

46:07

man

46:07

in the neck, and graphic scenes

46:09

that I saw in my preparation.

46:12

They they hunt it. You

46:14

know,

46:14

we sat on location. And there

46:16

were a lot of things going on while we were shooting

46:18

because the pre sleep was still in operation.

46:20

So there were a lot of sirens blasting and

46:22

cops rolling around and crimes being committed. A

46:25

lot of burglaries were

46:27

committed on the set. you

46:29

know, we had people protesting a movie, picking in

46:31

the movie, picking me,

46:34

I was threatened by

46:36

a nun, We said Gonna gonna chain you to a chair

46:38

and make you rewrite the

46:40

script. We

46:42

were bombed one night from an El track.

46:44

They threw a bottle down on

46:47

the set from the top of the show when the cops ran up stairs to try to get

46:49

them and they ran away. So it was a

46:51

unique kind of experience in

46:53

making a movie. The

46:55

committee against Fort Apache also protested today in front of several

46:57

other New York dealers. One demonstrator says

46:59

the film is not fair in

47:01

its depiction of blacks Hispanic

47:04

and women living in that area of the box. The film

47:07

is a racist film. It presents

47:09

a very unrealistic picture of

47:11

our community. It

47:12

makes state it

47:14

such as that our community is to blame for the

47:16

poverty and the things that that

47:19

affect our community. got

47:23

a

47:23

good story about A crowd got

47:25

rowdy at one point in front of

47:27

her trailer. A bunch of

47:28

kids got Gonna. They were screaming and yelling

47:30

and trying to disrupt this for

47:32

shooting and, you know, and she came out of trailer and

47:35

said, if you guys don't behave,

47:37

I'm gonna get my cousin Rosie

47:40

after you. Newman her cousin was

47:42

Rosemarquilla. He's an Paul pro

47:44

defensive tackle for the New York giants. And

47:46

and they knew who he was. And they were

47:48

all there and then they she told this

47:50

noted them. They just loved the river. Oh, Pam. Sorry. Pam, can

47:52

you give us an autograph and this man, and

47:54

she handed out a bunch of eight by tens.

47:57

Everybody was happy after that.

48:00

By

48:00

the way, Rosie Greer is not Pam's cousin, but

48:02

she pretended he was when she

48:06

needed to.

48:08

Fort Apache took

48:10

three months to shoot. Pam lived

48:13

inside her character the whole

48:15

time. She didn't sleep much.

48:17

She lost weight. In the movie, you can see dark circles

48:19

under her eyes. That wasn't

48:22

makeup. And I get a call on this set, and

48:24

it's from Jim Brown. They said Pam there's

48:26

someone who needs speak with you as Jim

48:28

Brown about an accident?

48:30

Jim

48:31

Brown was a

48:33

hall

48:33

of Paul in

48:36

the NFL. before a second career is a black exploitation

48:38

star. It was also a close friend

48:39

Paul Richard Pryor. Miss James

48:41

a

48:42

peer, Richard Pryor had

48:46

an accident. he burned himself

48:47

up. Richard Pryor was

48:50

almost

48:50

fatally burned in a freak accident.

48:52

Richard Pryor, critically burned Monday

48:56

night. Understood. that you have a man who still has a fifty percent burn on degree

48:58

nature is very very sick.

49:00

It was all over

49:01

the news. a fireball

49:04

exploding in Richard's home.

49:06

Pam

49:06

guessed correctly that Richard

49:09

caused the explosion by free

49:12

basing cocaine. I

49:14

said free basing

49:16

with that

49:18

tube or thing. Yeah. and

49:20

he wants to see you. They think he won't make it till the night. He's not

49:22

gonna live. And he wanted to see you

49:24

before he dies. So we're sending a

49:26

private plane to pick you up.

49:29

I said, I'm

49:31

working.

49:34

This is my job.

49:34

Please not go mess it up. I

49:37

said he

49:37

ain't doing that. My love I'm showing him

49:40

love by not coming.

49:42

And Jim said

49:42

that sure it was cold.

49:44

He said it was cold, bad, it was

49:46

cold. Fifth,

49:48

bitch

49:48

it off. Made me wanna live.

49:50

Beat my ass. Snack me around.

49:52

Call me bitch.

49:55

Richard

49:58

Pryor

49:58

did survive his

49:59

burns.

50:01

Pam never left the set of

50:04

Ford Apache. when we

50:05

wrapped, she went around and she

50:07

said, I'm gonna give you guys a

50:10

photo. So

50:12

everybody expected you know, like kind of

50:14

a a cheesecake y photo of Pham Greer in one of her roles,

50:16

like coffee, one of the roles that she

50:18

played. instead,

50:20

she gave us snapshots that they were

50:22

taken when she was a five year old girl

50:24

in Denver in a snowstorm. So

50:26

it's a five year old girl with a snow

50:29

suit on front old car, and that's the

50:31

picture that she gave us.

50:33

Heywood Gould still

50:34

has the black and white photo.

50:37

Pam is a little girl, bundled up, hood

50:40

on standing in the street next to a

50:42

nineteen fifties TCM act.

50:44

Behind her as a house with a white

50:46

picket fence, and

50:47

a couple of trees. The

50:49

DP

50:49

joint Alcon said, oh, I'm

50:52

disappointed. How's it doing? Me

50:54

too. Paul. So that was

50:56

Pam's little joke on all of us, you

50:58

know?

50:59

Fort Apache,

51:01

TCM Bronx, hit theaters

51:03

in February nineteen eighty

51:05

one. he'd

51:05

immediately hit number one at the

51:07

box office and got good reviews,

51:10

especially for Paul. and his

51:12

partner have a run-in with a pimp and

51:14

his prostitute played by Pam was just achieved

51:16

the goals that I needed

51:18

to meet in such a

51:22

short it was

51:23

really something

51:26

for me that I learned that

51:28

I didn't think I had or could do.

51:32

Fort

51:32

Apache helped Pam's career, but only in a

51:35

limited way. The movie was over

51:37

two

51:37

hours long, and Pam was on screen

51:39

for less than nine

51:42

minutes Compare that to

51:42

coffee or foxy brown or even

51:45

shiba baby where she's in

51:47

almost every scene where

51:49

she's the star.

51:51

As the eighties went on, Pam

51:54

took on more supporting

51:56

roles,

51:56

but good parts, really good

51:58

parts like Charlotte, were still few

51:59

and far between. Hollywood

52:02

still didn't know what to do with

52:04

Pam Greer. She was struggling

52:06

She was looking for things

52:08

to do that were not genre

52:10

of exploitation titles, and it wasn't

52:12

easy. She was still trapped

52:15

in that exploitation, black

52:18

exploitation

52:18

role of the

52:20

wrong aggressor a woman strong aggressor woman but

52:22

it was not who she

52:23

was as a person. And it

52:25

took someone like Tarantino

52:28

to to get

52:29

past the cliches and find

52:31

the Kibial character.

52:40

Next week

52:43

on

52:45

our season finale,

52:48

The hottest director in Hollywood gives Pam

52:50

the role of a lifetime. I

52:52

wanted to sound like a pamper

52:54

movie. I wanted to have a pamper opening

52:58

credit sequence. I want the poster to reflect the Pamper

53:00

poster.

53:02

Angela Corona

53:02

is our director of podcasts.

53:05

Story editors are Joanne Farian and

53:07

Sherry O KK. Audio editing

53:10

and sound design by

53:12

Mike vulgaris. Script writing by Yoko Friedman, Rachel

53:14

Pilgrim, Angela Corona, and

53:16

me. Yoko Friedman is our

53:18

senior producer. James

53:20

Sheridan is our researcher and fact checker,

53:22

mixing by Glenn Matoulo

53:24

and Tim Pelletier, TCM support

53:27

from Julie Vuitton, Mario Riles,

53:30

Suzano Zapata, Liz Winter,

53:32

Alison Fire, Phil Richards,

53:35

and Paul Hall, web

53:37

support by Betsy Gucci. Thanks

53:39

to David Byrne, Taren Jacobs, Carolyn Widmore, Dexter Fedor,

53:42

Marci Saco, Gen Aviv

53:44

McGillicuddy, and

53:46

Mark Wins. and the

53:48

entire TCM marketing team.

53:49

Special thanks to Bruce Shapiro

53:51

at Columbia University's Arts Center for

53:54

Journalism and Trauma. Original music in

53:56

the podcast comes from the band,

53:58

Cadillac Jones. Believe it or

53:59

not, their base player is

54:02

also our lawyer.

54:04

John Renault, Thanks to John, Kristen Hassel, and Salang

54:06

Moulton. Thomas Avery of Toon Welders

54:08

composed our theme music. Our executive

54:10

producer

54:10

is Charlie Tavish,

54:13

TCM's general manager is

54:16

Shagna. Check

54:16

out our website at TCM

54:18

dot com backslash the Thickens. has

54:21

info about each episode and photos from throughout

54:23

Pam's life. Again, that's TCM

54:25

dot com backslash the

54:28

block Thickens. I'm your host,

54:30

Ben Menckowitz. Thanks for

54:32

listening.

54:32

See

54:33

you next time. Do

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