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America's classic movie and TV authority

0:38

since nineteen eighty seven. that's

0:41

cvideo dot com

0:43

code TCM

0:49

In October nineteen ninety two, an

0:51

indie movie called Reservoir Dogs Landed

0:53

In Theatres. Let's go to play. It

0:56

was the first film by an unknown writer

0:58

and director named Quentin Tarantino. He

1:00

was just twenty nine. We're gonna be using

1:03

aliases on his job. Is

1:05

the Brown? mister White.

1:07

Reservoir dogs was bold. It's a

1:09

dialogue, showy, and confident. Mister

1:12

Pink. Why not mister Pink? Why

1:14

can't we pick our own colors? TCM to once

1:17

it doesn't work. You get four guys,

1:19

well, fighting over who's gonna be mister Black.

1:21

Pam went to see it. In one scene,

1:24

four gangsters are driving down an LA

1:26

street. One of them says a familiar

1:28

name. There's an

1:31

Chicago play TCM Love. Parrot

1:33

Greer. No. It wasn't Pam Greer. Pam Greer.

1:35

It was the other one. Pam Greer

1:37

did the film. Just

1:39

love was like a Pan Greer TV show

1:41

without Pan Greer. So

1:43

who was killed? in

1:44

the theater in Manhattan and he mentioned my name

1:46

and that the whole

1:47

theater went crazy. Pam

1:49

was surprised Tarantino knew who

1:51

she was.

1:53

A few months later, she learned he was casting

1:55

a new film. also said in LA's

1:58

criminal underworld.

1:59

It

2:02

was called pulp fiction. What happened

2:04

here was a miracle, and I want you

2:06

to fucking acknowledge it.

2:08

Alright. It was a miracle. Can

2:11

we go now? Then

2:13

I get all of

2:14

a sudden an invitation to

2:17

interview audition for pulp

2:19

fiction. And They

2:21

said, you gotta go. Quentin loves you. He has

2:23

all of your posters

2:23

in in his office. So

2:26

Pam came in there and she came walking in and I'm

2:28

like, acting TCM kikiko.

2:30

Here's Queen Greer. Alright?

2:32

It's just entered the building. And I all

2:34

hail the queen. That's Quentin

2:36

Tarantino. and Pam had some of the best

2:38

posters, so there was like a ton of Pam

2:40

grip posters all over the office. And

2:43

it was

2:43

impressive and daunting to

2:45

see five or six huge,

2:47

very

2:48

expensive posters on

2:50

his wall. And then she goes,

2:52

okay. So tell me, Did you put

2:54

all these posters up because you knew

2:56

I was coming in? And I go,

2:58

actually, I almost took them down

3:01

because I knew you were Pam

3:04

auditioned.

3:05

Quentin told her she wasn't quite right

3:08

for the role. But

3:09

we talked he said, you know, everything works,

3:11

but You know what? Maybe I should just work

3:13

with you at another time. I said, that's fine.

3:15

Pam took it in stride

3:18

she figured This was the last time

3:20

she'd ever hear from Quentin Tarantino. Here's

3:23

Quentin on the Charlie Row show in ninety

3:25

seven. One of the worst things that happened in

3:27

Hollywood is very uncretiveness when

3:29

it comes to casting. And

3:31

part of that is you basically have the same

3:33

names

3:33

on this list that the studio

3:35

makes. I have a good memory.

3:37

Alright. I've got a much longer list and

3:40

the only thing you need to be on that list is a

3:42

good actor. Quentin's

3:44

list was full of talented people,

3:47

but many were a gamble when it came to

3:49

ticket sales, a big gamble.

3:51

That

3:51

didn't matter to him.

3:53

His list was personal.

3:54

And Pam Greer?

3:56

She was right at the top.

4:13

I'm your host, Ben Mankowitz. You're listening

4:15

to season four of the plot second a podcast

4:18

from Turner classic movies. This

4:20

season, Pam Greer. And now

4:22

she rose to become the queen of black

4:24

exploitation films, and Hollywood's

4:26

first female action hero. This

4:30

is episode seven, miss

4:32

Jackie Brown.

4:41

The years

4:43

leading up to that pulp fiction audition

4:45

weren't great for Pam. She has

4:47

fewer roles because of

4:49

the way that these black exploitation films

4:52

tapered off. That's

4:53

Jacqueline Stewart, a TCM host

4:55

and director of the Academy Museum. It

5:00

was the TCM eighties. Ronald

5:02

Reagan was president telling us that

5:04

the seventies were over. this morning again

5:06

in America. It was morning in America.

5:08

We're going to keep on with what we're doing.

5:10

It was a decade of excess of a

5:12

culture that proclaimed greed

5:14

is good. and Hollywood

5:16

fell in love with the blockbuster. It

5:18

created a sensation.

5:20

jaws

5:23

see it.

5:24

when blockbusters like jaws

5:26

and Star

5:28

Wars series kind of get Hollywood back

5:30

on its feet. then it moves

5:33

back toward focusing on so called mainstream

5:35

audiences. And it becomes

5:36

really, really difficult for blacked

5:39

creatives to to

5:41

find footing in Hollywood for a long time.

5:43

I

5:44

didn't get a lot of the the opportunities

5:46

because I'm too tall, I'm too dark,

5:48

I'm my boobs are too big

5:50

or my butt's too big or it's not

5:52

flat enough and, you know, so whatever

5:54

reason

5:55

Pam

5:57

did have a guest role on the Ultimate

5:59

nineteen

5:59

eighty show, Miami vice.

6:02

What was I supposed to do, Rick? turn her in

6:04

from murder. She played a

6:06

cop of edging the murder of her sister.

6:09

Sound familiar?

6:12

As hard as Pam tried, she kept

6:14

getting cast in the same types of

6:16

roles. So Pam switched

6:18

it up. She did some theater.

6:20

Pano lesson, Frankie

6:22

Gianna declared a loom full for love.

6:25

The one at the new Nigro ensemble

6:27

in New Jersey and Newark.

6:28

Pam was determined to keep her career

6:31

going. And in nineteen eighty six,

6:33

a movie called She's gotta have it, hit

6:35

theaters. It was the first film from

6:37

a young writer and director named Spike

6:39

Lee. It's time for you to grow up.

6:41

Grow up? Yeah. You know, no. You've

6:43

done me wrong. Please, baby,

6:45

please, baby, please, baby, baby,

6:47

please, dolla. She's

6:49

got to have it broke new ground inspiring

6:52

a new era of independent cinema.

6:54

and an era of black independent cinema.

6:58

But

6:59

Pam wouldn't get a chance to be a part

7:01

of that. It was the summer of nineteen

7:04

eighty eight.

7:05

Pam went to the gynecologist for her

7:07

annual checkup. And

7:08

they

7:10

found, you know, some cells

7:13

and did a biopsy and said,

7:15

okay, we're gonna

7:16

have surgery three weeks because we found

7:18

some topical cancer cells

7:20

on your cervix, and I'm going,

7:22

oh, wow. Wow. Okay.

7:27

The

7:27

diagnosis was cervical cancer.

7:29

Pam was thirty nine years old and

7:32

incredibly healthy. she exercised

7:34

every day, ate good food, barely

7:36

drank. Pam

7:37

always believed in being prepared. It

7:40

was how she dealt with the messiness of life.

7:42

the thing she can't control. She

7:44

was not prepared for cancer.

7:47

It

7:47

was daunting because It's

7:50

something you didn't see. You didn't see symptoms.

7:52

You didn't have pain. It's just snuck

7:54

up on you. That's that's kinda it's

7:56

tough. That's that's less the quietest.

7:59

you know, upcoming impending death.

8:02

And I had to prepare

8:05

myself mentally.

8:07

Pam called her mom who was still

8:09

working as a nurse.

8:11

And she after she got off the phone,

8:13

I

8:13

heard that she was sobbing. And

8:16

then when she flew

8:17

to California to

8:19

meet with my my doctors, a

8:21

team of, you know, my gynecologist,

8:24

my oncologist and and she

8:26

knew exactly what they

8:28

were saying,

8:29

and she had this

8:32

quiet moved

8:35

by about her of

8:37

complete. This is

8:39

danger. This is this is not good.

8:43

And

8:44

so we had

8:46

the surgery and they decided to

8:47

do a three sixty

8:50

biopsy of the surrounding area

8:52

and they own more

8:54

cancer. And they said, well, you're supposed

8:56

to heal first, but in this case,

8:58

it's extreme that

9:01

we remove every area

9:04

that has cells.

9:06

Three weeks

9:06

later, Pam had another surgery

9:08

to remove her uterus, which

9:10

meant she would never be able to get pregnant.

9:13

That it

9:16

is a very special of

9:18

to

9:18

grow a child in your body and

9:21

feel that and

9:23

know you're responsible for

9:25

their development.

9:28

And

9:28

I think about it. I said, wow. I mean,

9:31

I think about it. I would say, you

9:33

know, every month,

9:35

how wonderful would have felt to have

9:37

created a a human in my body.

9:39

But I did harvest

9:41

my eggs. Adoption was

9:44

an option but I

9:46

needed to have

9:46

a partner while I'm

9:49

working. A mister mom

9:52

raising the child or children.

9:55

After the surgery, Pam put

9:57

all of that aside. She had to.

9:59

So

9:59

I knew that I had to

10:02

focus on just survive diving.

10:04

But I I had my moments

10:06

where I was so sick. You

10:08

just, you know, so much had been removed

10:11

from my body. The doctors said, you're not

10:13

gonna die if cancer your day of

10:15

infection. As soon

10:16

as she could travel, Pam left Los Angeles

10:18

and moved back to Denver.

10:21

and I remember going home

10:24

and having the driver help me

10:26

out

10:27

to my mom's house, so I was super pretty

10:29

sore I've

10:30

got to recuperate and

10:33

to start my life over in

10:35

Colorado.

10:39

when do

10:40

you stop worrying about

10:43

it? Is there a moment when you're like, I think

10:45

I'm okay. I can think about

10:47

the future. There

10:48

is a moment where you had your last

10:50

exam and your biopsy

10:52

and your MRIs has it spread

10:54

to your bones, has it spread to your

10:56

bone marrow, your organs, and

10:59

they said, hasn't spread. That's

11:01

a good sign. It's not

11:03

in your bone marrow, that's even

11:05

a better sign. And

11:07

they're

11:07

giving you the

11:10

results of your tests that

11:12

give

11:12

you that confidence that you

11:15

may you may see the finish line.

11:17

Pam spent

11:17

her recovery focusing on what

11:19

was right in front of her. She

11:22

didn't think about Hollywood.

11:25

And every day, my eyes opened,

11:28

and there's a blue

11:30

sky.

11:31

Birds outside, maybe some snow,

11:33

like, four feet of it.

11:35

And you

11:36

know what? the

11:38

first snowfall

11:41

that I experienced while

11:42

I was, you know, in within

11:45

maybe

11:45

the eighteenth month, not even

11:47

then. I

11:48

went outside in my pajamas

11:50

and I just fell in the snow.

11:52

And it felt so

11:55

good that I'm alive. This

11:57

feels really good. What

12:00

can

12:00

I do from here?

12:04

That was a good day.

12:06

Eventually, there would be more good days

12:08

than bad.

12:10

Soon, she would face life after

12:12

illness, and rebuild her acting

12:14

career as a woman in her early

12:16

forties. That was

12:19

not going to be easy.

12:21

Pam

12:22

started taking the occasional audition, like

12:24

the one for pulp fiction. She

12:26

did

12:26

a walk on part here and there.

12:28

there was so much going on in treatment

12:31

and therapy and diet and

12:33

setbacks and blood work

12:35

and this and that. I didn't

12:36

know if I'd have the memory to

12:39

memorize dialogue or

12:41

remember my craft. By

12:43

nineteen

12:43

ninety four, Pam started accepting

12:46

roles. Twenty years after the

12:48

heyday of Black exploitation films, a

12:50

movie called Original Gangsters was in

12:52

the works in Hollywood. It

12:54

starred legends of the Black exploitation

12:56

era. Fred Williamson, Richard

12:58

Roundtree, and, of

12:58

course, Pam Greer. What we're

13:01

gonna

13:01

do is look punk. We can't

13:02

shoot him in a community TCM center.

13:06

besides we gotta make it look like it's

13:08

an

13:08

x. Pam

13:10

also landed two smaller roles with

13:12

famous Hollywood directors. and Tim

13:14

Burton's Mars attacks. Byron,

13:16

there's martians everywhere. And

13:18

in John Carpenter's cult

13:21

classic escaped from LA. sneak

13:23

pliskin is back. Did John

13:25

Carpenter'susky from

13:27

LA. As for

13:29

Quentin Tarantino, well, Pulp

13:31

fiction wasn't just a hit. It was a

13:33

defining film of the decade.

13:35

When they added up the best ten list

13:37

filed by hundreds of American film

13:39

critics, The fiction film the place's

13:41

highest was pulp fiction. Check out

13:43

the big brain on brand.

13:45

It cost eight and a half million dollars

13:47

to make and grossed a hundred

13:49

million in North America alone.

13:51

It won the Palmdor TCM prize

13:53

at the Can Film Festival in nineteen

13:56

ninety four. And the Oscar

13:58

goes TCM

13:59

Grinch and Tarantino, not your favorite

14:02

performers. And Quentin won the

14:04

Oscar for best

14:04

screenplay. By

14:07

the spring, Quentin was working on his

14:10

next project, a screenplay based

14:12

on the novel rum punch. a book

14:14

written by a master of hardboiled

14:16

crime fiction.

14:17

Elmore Leonard. Rum

14:19

punch is about a blonde flight attendant

14:21

named Jackie Burke

14:22

who smuggles cash for a gun runner in

14:25

Florida.

14:26

Quentin thought about all the actors

14:28

who could play Jackie. And then

14:29

I started asking myself what the

14:32

movie needed.

14:32

and who

14:33

Jackie was. And

14:35

I go, well, she's

14:37

an absolute knockout, but she's on a

14:39

late side of her TCM, and she looks like it,

14:41

but in a good way. And she's the

14:43

smartest person in the story.

14:45

Absolutely. And

14:47

she can handle

14:48

anything. And then I

14:49

just said out loud and TCM myself.

14:52

I just said out, well, that sounds like

14:54

Pam Greer.

14:56

Quentin kept writing with

14:58

Pam in mind, then they ran

15:00

into each other in the summer of nineteen

15:03

ninety four. I bump

15:04

into him on a street in

15:07

Hollywood somewhere and I'm

15:09

driving and I'm with another

15:11

producer And the producer says, hey, that's

15:13

Quentin Tarantino. And so my

15:15

friend leans out the window and he says, hey, Quentin come

15:17

over here. And he says, it's Pam Greer over here.

15:19

And he goes, oh, so he Jots down

15:21

to

15:21

the car. And go, hey, look,

15:24

got this thing that I'm riding for you. I

15:26

think I think

15:27

it's gonna be really exciting for you. I think you're

15:29

gonna find it really special. Well, I'm

15:31

doing some good stuff now. I'm in, like, I've got

15:33

a good part in Mars attacks. I've

15:35

got a good part in escape

15:37

from LA. I'm working with John

15:39

Carpenter, Tim Burton, and I'm

15:41

just like fuck all that

15:42

shit. That

15:46

TCM shit. Wait till you

15:48

see what I got for you. She's

15:51

okay. We'll see.

15:55

Once again, Pam was skeptical.

15:57

Quentin finished the screenplay and

15:59

instead of rumunch, he

16:01

titled it Jackie Brown, a nod

16:03

to Foxy Pam's most

16:05

famous role. He wanted the

16:07

movie to be an homage to Black

16:09

exploitation films. But

16:12

not coming from a

16:14

nineteen seventy two seventy three

16:16

seventy four exploitation feeling,

16:18

but coming from a real person situation.

16:20

This is the nineties. and

16:22

this is real. And the music

16:24

can be Wawa, funko

16:26

d b, funko d. TCM my bad guy can be

16:29

flamboyant and everything, but this takes place in a real

16:31

world. And I even

16:33

liked the idea of even

16:35

Jackie Brown. I'm look, she's not

16:37

coffee, but the idea that, like, A

16:39

coffee or a foxy brown has lived a

16:41

life. And the life she's lived

16:43

has led her to this. And now we're

16:45

picking up the story twenty years later.

16:46

Quentin sent the

16:49

script to Pam who was staying in New York

16:51

at the time. I don't even send

16:53

it federal express. I send

16:55

it like with stamps and drop

16:57

it in a mailbox. But

16:59

he didn't put enough stamps on it. There

17:01

was postage due. and it was

17:03

forty four cents due. New York ain't giving up nothing unless

17:05

you leave some money at the post office. So

17:07

I had

17:08

the money. I taped it to the

17:11

the notice handed it to the postman.

17:13

He handed me a Manila envelope.

17:15

It was from quick q tarantino, and I

17:17

went, oh my god. This is the

17:19

script. He sent me. So

17:21

open

17:22

it and there there is Jackie Brown.

17:24

I was anxiously waiting because I've

17:26

been, you know, this has been this

17:28

little private present that I've been writing for

17:31

Pam for like three or four months.

17:33

And so it was present day and she was

17:35

gonna open it up and I was gonna hear what she had to

17:37

say.

17:38

And

17:39

so

17:41

I read it. k.

17:44

It was

17:44

awesome. It

17:46

was absolutely

17:48

brilliant. I call

17:50

her up like three days later or something

17:52

like that, and

17:53

she goes, okay, so what part are you

17:55

thinking about me for?

17:57

Who do

17:57

you think? Well, you mean, Jackie

17:59

Brown? But I just

18:01

didn't think it was for me.

18:03

What

18:03

I really didn't believe is like, okay.

18:05

I'm Jackie Brown. then he started mentioning

18:08

Anne Sam, Jackson, and and Michael

18:10

Keaton, and Robert DeNiro, and

18:12

I was, like,

18:14

Really? They've they've

18:16

come aboard really? He says,

18:18

yeah.

18:20

Pam was stunned. Twenty years

18:23

after Foxy Brown, Pam

18:25

wondered if this was finally her

18:27

big break.

18:37

coming up on the plot seconds.

18:40

That

18:40

was the interesting thing. I cast her for

18:42

her persona and her iconic aspect

18:44

and then proceeded to

18:46

tear it down.

18:53

Remember how movie

18:55

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19:01

you really should get the food after the

19:04

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19:06

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19:08

had weird movies, rare

19:10

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19:12

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19:14

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19:15

can have an entire video store

19:18

in your mailbox, the real mailbox,

19:20

the old one, the one outside, and

19:22

you can have it

19:23

every month with critics choice video.

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20:36

sixty five twenty two.

20:38

Okay. We're

20:40

in bed. Here

20:42

we go. So you're starting off pretty

20:44

provocative with this first little tidbit.

20:47

Okay? Well,

20:48

before shooting

20:51

began, Pamela and

20:51

Quentin Tarantino TCM to

20:54

rehearse. And

20:55

he said, I want everybody

20:58

off book by

20:58

the time we start filming.

21:00

And

21:00

I said, okay. I can do

21:03

that. Off

21:03

book means the actor no longer needs the script.

21:05

All their lines are memorized.

21:07

I was

21:08

ready off book on every

21:09

damn page. And so he could call him

21:12

at any time and say, we're ready

21:13

to go. We're ready

21:14

to go. No easy

21:16

feat for a Quentin

21:19

Tarantino movie. He's known for

21:21

writing long stretches of dialogue.

21:23

This is actor Sam Jackson from a documentary

21:25

about the making of Jackie Brown.

21:28

There's a very distinctive style

21:30

and not only that, all scripts

21:32

have words in them. There aren't

21:34

like fourteen pages of descriptives.

21:36

They have a test. technology

21:38

that's the most popular gun in American crime.

21:40

Can you bleed that shit? Yes. Quentin also

21:42

rehearsed all the long shots he wanted in the

21:44

movie, and there are several of them.

21:47

He walked Pam through the marks she'd have to

21:50

hit. It's fifteen

21:50

minutes long, so I don't

21:52

wanna cut. So

21:54

every take has to be fifteen minutes TCM,

21:57

rehearsed, you hit the light, you hit the point, you

21:59

turn the light

21:59

up, turn the light down, hit the refrigerator, get

22:02

the glass out there. and

22:04

don't miss it. Do

22:04

you got some booze? I

22:07

got

22:07

some vodka in the freezer.

22:09

Got

22:09

some o j? Mhmm.

22:11

Or won't

22:12

you be a good hostess and a

22:14

good brother of a screwdriver? Sure.

22:17

And, like,

22:17

how many takes we gonna do on

22:20

this

22:20

equipment? I can only do a couple.

22:22

And he would look at,

22:23

well, you're gonna do as many as I want. I say, oh,

22:26

okay. Well, this is gonna be a

22:28

dual here. Pam's

22:29

Jackie Brown is a flight attendant

22:32

for a second raid airline. She

22:34

makes extra money smuggling cash

22:36

for Gunrunner and Socio

22:39

bath,ordell Roby, played by Sam

22:41

Jackson. Is your money? What if I say

22:43

no? To ATF agents,

22:45

Napper, early in the film. but they really want to

22:47

redel as a gunrunning operation.

22:49

Who in Mexico gave you this money? And

22:51

who in America were you bringing it to? I'm

22:53

not saying another goddamn word.

22:56

Jackie comes up with a plan to outsmart the

22:58

cops andordell, but she needs help

23:00

to keepordell from killing her.

23:03

Here's Sam Jackson. I've watched Pam

23:05

for a long time. I guess the first time I

23:07

was standing there, rehearsal, but I had my

23:10

hands on the throat of sinus, and

23:12

I about the chill coffee business coming. It's kinda

23:14

chilly to be there and doing that. It's

23:16

kind of exciting in the in

23:18

the same breath. and it's

23:20

kinda hard to fall in love with the way he's standing there looking

23:23

at. How are

23:24

you doing, miss Jack?

23:27

Come on in.

23:29

I was

23:32

really

23:33

into the realism of and of the

23:35

things that was important to me that even when

23:37

we found the apartment that Jackie Brown lived

23:39

in, I knew how much Jackie Brown

23:42

made a year. So Jackie had to

23:44

be able to afford that apartment or I wouldn't have

23:46

shot there. And so find an apartment she

23:48

got a floor that would be big enough to actually put

23:50

a crew in there. It was not easy, but we

23:52

did.

23:52

Quinn had literally painted that

23:55

apartment several times to be the right

23:57

color paint for my

23:59

uniform

23:59

or for

23:59

my skin color and for the drama, for

24:02

the effect Quentin

24:03

had frame photographs put on the wall in

24:05

Jackie's apartment. Those

24:07

look like

24:07

Pam Greer family photos. Are they?

24:10

Yes.

24:10

They are. my grandfather and

24:13

grandmother and my mom and my

24:14

brother and we were in

24:17

Denver or somewhere. Yeah. They were my

24:19

family pictures, which

24:20

gave me you know, a little bit

24:22

of grounding. A

24:23

candy. Hey, next. Picking up

24:25

brown, Jackie. Okay. No problem. You

24:28

are. You that I am. Quentin

24:30

also cast the actor Robert Forster

24:32

as Max Cherry, a bail bondsman

24:34

who helps Jackie scheme.

24:36

He also falls in love with her. I'm Max

24:38

Jerry. They're looking at Dale Bonspoon.

24:40

I mean, so I

24:43

could

24:43

give you a lift home if you

24:45

like. I love the scene with

24:47

you and Robert Forster at the kitchen tape.

24:49

I did also. And

24:51

the first

24:51

take was brilliant where the crew

24:54

applauded. They

24:55

loved that scene so much. Would you

24:57

like

24:57

some coffee? The

24:58

scene takes place in the morning. Max

25:01

Cherry has come to Jackie's apartment to check

25:03

on her. She

25:05

puts a Delphonics record on

25:07

her stereo and pour some coffee.

25:10

Jackie ass Max, and

25:12

he feels about getting older. Look

25:14

in the mirror, looks

25:16

like me. Yeah. But

25:18

it's different from me. You know,

25:20

I can't really feel too sorry for

25:22

you in this apart. I bet that

25:25

except for possibly in escrow, you

25:27

look exactly the way you did at

25:29

twenty nine.

25:31

Well, why are

25:33

you asking the same? Bigger.

25:35

Yeah.

25:38

Ain't nothing wrong with

25:41

that. Something

25:43

else were you?

25:51

I

25:51

always feel like I'm starting over.

25:53

I've thought about

25:54

this scene often over the years, how

25:57

vulnerable the characters are with

25:59

each other. how

25:59

authentic and natural Pam

26:02

and Robert Forster are together. Now

26:04

the

26:04

dialogue might resonate on a personal

26:07

level with these two middle aged actors.

26:09

Well, I've flown over seven

26:11

million miles and I've been waiting on people

26:13

for twenty years. And

26:16

after my bus, the best job I could

26:18

get was with cabo wear, which is the worst job

26:20

you could get

26:21

in this industry. You know,

26:24

I make sixteen thousand here. Those retirement

26:26

benefits I ain't worth a damn.

26:28

And with this arrest hanging

26:30

over my head, man, because I'm scared. If

26:33

I lose this job, I gotta start

26:35

all over again and I got nothing to start

26:37

over with. I'll be stuck with whatever

26:39

I can get. And

26:44

that shit is more scary than on down.

26:47

While

26:48

filming the scene at the kitchen table,

26:51

Pam's instincts let her to cry as

26:53

she opened up to Max Cherry.

26:54

Pam

26:55

thought she nailed it. The crew

26:58

applauded, but

26:58

Quentin wanted another take.

27:00

She was

27:01

happy because the the emotion took

27:03

her there, and she had it, and she went

27:05

with it. And I wouldn't want her to

27:07

stop that. That's a take and everything. But that's just not

27:09

right for the scene. and

27:11

why didn't that work for Jackie?

27:13

She's

27:14

in trouble, but she's not full of self pity.

27:17

She's she's getting cornered.

27:19

Like a feral animal, she's getting cornered, but

27:21

she's not saying mow is me.

27:23

This made me

27:24

wonder how Quentin directed

27:26

Pam.

27:26

kind of notes he gave her. You

27:29

know, frankly, at the end of the day, I think it's just

27:31

slow down. Slow down. We got time.

27:33

We got time. got time to do the same right. You don't have

27:35

to rush. We're fine. Just take your

27:38

time. Okay. Let's try it this way. Let's

27:40

try it that way. Don't worry about

27:42

trying to get to it too fast. Pam

27:44

went to the

27:45

Jackie Brown set as much as

27:47

she could, even on the day she didn't

27:49

have scenes, just like she

27:51

did in the Philippines with Jack

27:53

Hill. I'm a

27:54

student. When you go behind

27:57

the camera and you can shadow

27:59

people,

27:59

you can see what goes on from another

28:02

perspective and that goes in my book. of what

28:04

I wanna do. She was

28:05

tickled paint. She was like, oh, can I go

28:08

home early? No. She's gonna go home early. She didn't

28:10

want this thing to have her fucking end. Alright.

28:12

She was having a ball.

28:13

and she knew to lead. There's a thing about

28:15

when you cast a lead actor. There is a there's

28:17

a thing about a lead actor. They need to lead. They need

28:19

to lead by example. They are the lead of

28:22

the film. They kinda you know, they're sort

28:24

of like the director a little bit what they do matters.

28:26

Yeah. What they do really matters and they need to

28:28

kind of help lead this production. They need to

28:30

give it a north. On the

28:34

last day of shooting for Jackie Brown,

28:36

a crew member called it

28:38

a wrap.

28:38

Pam

28:44

was

28:44

still wearing her flight attendant

28:46

costume. Champagne bottles were passed

28:49

around, and then almost immediately,

28:51

the cast and crew started chatting.

28:53

She

28:56

felt an

28:59

incredible sense

29:01

of accomplishment. You

29:03

know,

29:03

I made sure I did my homework and

29:05

it paid off and

29:07

it's exhausting. But

29:11

it's wonderful.

29:12

Pam had

29:16

been the

29:17

lead actor in a movie since nineteen

29:19

seventy five, twenty two years.

29:22

This time

29:22

though, the stakes fell higher.

29:25

Like, there might not

29:25

be another chance like this.

29:28

Now she had to wait until Christmas

29:30

day. when

29:31

Jackie Brown would arrive in theaters.

29:41

Coming up

29:41

on the plot thickens. Here

29:43

we go. Jackie Brown

29:45

is out. Pamela Greer

29:48

is. Jackie Brown.

29:50

and Pam

29:52

hopes for the best.

29:59

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Anyone

31:45

go into the movies that Christmas TCM

31:48

nineteen ninety seven would have realized something

31:50

from the opening moments of Jackie

31:53

Brown. This

31:55

was Pam Greer's movie.

32:05

The

32:05

first shot is a long one. Pam's

32:07

in profile. She's wearing a flight

32:09

attendant uniform. She's on a people

32:11

mover at LAX. Los Angeles

32:14

airport. I was the

32:16

third brother before

32:18

doing

32:19

whatever I had to do to

32:21

The music is Bobby

32:23

Womax across a hundred and tenth Street,

32:25

an anthem of the black exploitation era,

32:27

and a nod to Pam's life

32:30

before movies. singing back up for

32:32

WOMAC. The credits pop

32:33

up in the same yellow bubble

32:35

font that was used for Foxy Brown.

32:38

I want

32:38

it to sound like a pamper movie. I want it to have a

32:40

pamper opening credit sequence. I want the

32:42

poster to reflect a pamper poster. There

32:46

are little nods to black exploitation

32:48

films throughout Jackie Brown. Jackie

32:50

is arrested and has to spend time in

32:53

jail Pam's rendition of

32:55

longtime woman plays.

32:57

When

32:58

she goes

33:01

to her bond hearing, Her old nineteen

33:03

seventies co star Sid Hague is the

33:05

judge. Charge is

33:07

possession of narcotics with the

33:09

intent to distribute.

33:11

How

33:11

does your client plead?

33:13

Hi. And so she's in the court. She's,

33:16

like, dressed

33:16

in her jumpsuit and everything.

33:18

And the minute sid, came walking out

33:21

in the judge's outfit.

33:23

She's like, She

33:26

goes, this is the greatest seg ever. When

33:30

Jackie goes to

33:32

Ordell's apartment building, she has to get

33:35

buzzed in. as a close-up of

33:37

Pam's finger moving down the list of

33:39

residents. She passes over

33:41

an s hague and a

33:43

j hill. shout outs to

33:45

Sid Hague and Jackill. What?

33:49

Jacky Brown.

33:52

These little Easter eggs were for the fans of

33:54

black exploitation films. I

33:56

should admit here that Jackie Brown is

33:58

one of my favorite movies. I

34:00

can watch those characters talk to each other all

34:03

day. There are pieces of acting in

34:05

Jackie Brown that I think are some of

34:07

the best in modern cinema. After

34:09

spending hours talking to Pam, I was

34:12

curious, maybe even a bit

34:14

nervous to hear how she felt

34:16

about the

34:18

movie. And

34:18

when I saw for my craft, I said, okay. I did okay.

34:20

I did alright. I'm good. I'm

34:23

good. You very proud

34:24

if you were on himself of yourself. very

34:26

proud. And even more so today as I look back

34:28

and see the work in what

34:30

it took to be disciplined TCM

34:33

work with him. For the most part, audiences

34:35

and critics also like Jackie

34:38

Brown. Jackie Brown is on

34:40

dozens

34:40

of nineteen ninety

34:42

seven proven ten best lift. Some complained that it was too long.

34:44

The one thing they all seemed to like

34:46

though was pan. A vote

34:48

the pair

34:49

by stunningly good performances from

34:51

B movie icon of the seventies Pam Greer.

34:54

There's a rail centered

34:55

curtain in Greer

34:58

as a simple character is marvelous. It's a real good performance because

35:00

Bambrere actually is much more glamorous

35:02

in real life than she is in

35:04

this movie and more inner jettie

35:07

get it. It's a it's a performance.

35:08

Yeah. We get to see her as a thinking, planning, self

35:12

directed person.

35:15

So I think that it was a revelation

35:16

to a lot of people about what she was

35:18

capable of doing as an actor. In

35:22

nineteen ninety seven, Pam was on the

35:24

Charlie Rose Show to promote Jackie

35:26

Brown. He asked her what she hoped

35:28

the movie would achieve.

35:29

And

35:30

if the audience enjoyed it

35:32

in the they feel what I've felt and I

35:35

have brought given depth

35:38

and texture and color and

35:40

pain and all kinds of emotionality

35:42

of my tajaki TCM people can feel it. At

35:45

the end of the day, all I wanted

35:47

to do was a good job.

35:50

It didn't take

35:50

long for the awards chatter to

35:53

start. Pam was nominated

35:54

for a Golden Globe and a

35:56

Screen Actors Guild Award. which meant

35:59

she

35:59

had momentum for the

36:02

Oscars. On February tenth nineteen

36:06

ninety eight, The Academy announced its nominees. For best

36:08

performance by an actress in a

36:10

leading role for the nominees are,

36:12

Julie Christie

36:14

and Afterglow TCM best

36:17

actress race for the early nineteen ninety eight season was

36:20

stacked. That's DCM host

36:22

Dave CarGher. He's also the

36:24

awards correspondent for Entertainment

36:26

Weekly and The Today Show. And

36:28

it was

36:28

Judy Dench, Helen of Bottom

36:30

Carter, Kate Winslet,

36:32

Helen

36:32

Hunt and Julie Christie, all very

36:34

good actors

36:34

who gave fine performances that

36:36

year, but so did

36:38

TCM. I didn't enter a race or

36:40

do Jackie Brown to win

36:41

an Oscar. I did it to do

36:43

the work.

36:45

Pam had

36:46

very little interest in talking about

36:48

this. but I think Pam

36:50

had been nominated, she would

36:51

have been only the seventh black

36:53

woman nominated for

36:56

best actress in seventy

36:58

TCM. And she would have been the first

37:00

black actress to win. So

37:02

I think

37:02

this was back in the time when the Academy was

37:04

not as diverse as it is now.

37:07

And I

37:07

don't think it's a coincidence that the five women

37:09

who were nominated over

37:12

pamperrier are white and that 1234

37:15

of them are British. That was the MO of the

37:17

Academy by and large at that time. I think in

37:19

another year and

37:20

quite frankly in a more recent year,

37:23

A performance like that from Pam Greer would have

37:26

been nominated. And the

37:28

Oscar goes

37:28

to Helen Hunt is as

37:30

good as it gets.

37:33

Helen Hunt

37:33

ended up winning in nineteen ninety eight for

37:36

her role and as good as it gets. We

37:38

can only speculate about what an Oscar

37:40

nomination or win would have done for

37:42

Pam's career. On one

37:44

hand,

37:44

it would have given her an instant

37:46

credibility beyond anything she had ever

37:48

done in the classic iconic films that

37:51

she did. On the other you

37:52

often hear stories like from Halliburton

37:54

who became the first black actress

37:56

to win that category. She talks

37:58

very

37:58

openly about how

37:59

even winning didn't really do

38:02

much for her career.

38:04

Even then we're talking in the early two

38:06

thousands now. Even then there were not the

38:08

roles existing for

38:10

black actresses.

38:11

Most

38:13

artists worked for decades to become

38:15

an icon. Pam made

38:16

a few movies in the

38:19

nineteen seventies in Quick succession and

38:20

suddenly she was iconic. It took decades after that,

38:22

a

38:23

lot of roles, and a ton of

38:25

work to finally get

38:28

mainstream praise. Columbia

38:29

Film Professor, Raquel

38:32

Gates. The

38:32

humanity, the complexity, the fragility, the

38:34

vulnerability was always there, and it was

38:36

always there if you looked for it. but

38:38

it's more highlighted. It's more made the

38:40

focus and the central aspect of

38:43

a film like Jacky ever

38:46

been tempted. What? But one

38:47

of these in my pocket?

38:50

Mhmm. It's

38:51

about that characters her

38:53

sort of reemergence from the margins, but it's also

38:56

about the reestablishment of Pam

38:58

Greer as a

39:00

Hollywood icon.

39:03

After Jackie Brown,

39:05

Pam worked often. She

39:07

got supporting

39:08

roles like in Jane Campion's Holy

39:10

Smoke, and she played Eddie Murphy's

39:12

mother in the adventures of Pluto and

39:14

Ash. In two thousand and two,

39:16

Showtime was considering a groundbreaking

39:19

but risky series. When

39:21

we first set out to make

39:23

this show, I was told you're gonna make

39:25

a little show about lesbians, you

39:28

know? No. You're not gonna cast

39:30

any stars people will be afraid of this. That's Aileen

39:32

Chaikin, creator of

39:32

the l word, a show about

39:35

a group of lesbian friends living in

39:37

the West Hollywood neighborhood of

39:40

Los Angeles. Aileen was working on the show's

39:42

pilot and had one role left to

39:43

cast. The old c

39:45

captain

39:46

was

39:48

this old school lesbian from back in the day,

39:50

we were looking to really

39:52

nail it. With this last

39:56

role, and cast somebody

39:58

meaningful, somebody

39:59

that would be, you know,

40:02

arresting. We'd get

40:04

everyone's attention. Aileen

40:04

met with the head of Showtime who gave her some advice. You know

40:07

what's gonna get your show in

40:08

the air? Casting

40:11

Pam Greer.

40:13

Pam

40:13

became the sea captain and they

40:15

shot a pilot. But after reviewing

40:17

the episode, it was clear the

40:19

character wasn't working. Aileen didn't want to lose TCM, so

40:21

she created a new role. She

40:24

recast Pam as Kit, the straight

40:26

sister to the show's lead,

40:28

Jennifer Beales.

40:30

kit was a mom, a musician, and a recovering alcoholic. I

40:32

went out as a musician,

40:34

fell in love, had

40:37

a son had you know,

40:39

on the Rocker singer party, now it's

40:41

time to chill out, come home,

40:43

see my sister and

40:45

hit my sister right pretty

40:47

much right TCM rehabilitate me. I

40:50

was having a drink the other

40:52

night when David called.

40:54

And I haven't had

40:56

one since It's been two days. I'm

40:57

gonna try. The way ultimately

41:00

that

41:00

she portrayed that character was so powerful,

41:02

struggling with her demons. overcoming

41:07

them, slipping

41:08

and backsliding. You shouldn't

41:11

be changing kids.

41:13

I have

41:15

to thank for

41:18

that. Female friendships are

41:20

rare in

41:21

many of Pam's

41:23

films. those seventies movies, other women were

41:26

generally her enemies. They were there

41:28

for mud fights and

41:30

bar bureaus. The l

41:31

word was different. It was made

41:33

by women, women

41:34

who understand the value of

41:38

friendship. And I

41:39

was like the den mother,

41:41

to all these, you know, women,

41:43

young women and girls who would come

41:45

from different places, they were

41:48

punjabi,

41:48

Hindi, you know, Muslim

41:51

gay women and

41:53

different classes economically. But

41:56

we have fun, you

41:57

know, being in this fantasy that we

41:59

had we shared.

41:59

Ladies and a future

42:02

women, this is a dream come

42:04

true. New

42:06

Pampers triumph. has

42:08

been,

42:08

to some degree, outliving

42:10

her super cool, super sexy

42:13

black exploitation persona and has

42:15

just become this fantastic actress

42:18

that has had a forty year career,

42:21

if

42:22

not longer. Throughout the

42:28

eighties and nineties, Pam dated here and

42:30

there. She had a couple of

42:32

serious relationships. but

42:33

in the end, they didn't

42:35

work out.

42:36

I didn't fit a mold for

42:38

all of them. That's why

42:40

I didn't it didn't last. because

42:42

I made the decision to love

42:45

me more,

42:47

grow more, not grow because

42:50

someone tells me when to grow or how to

42:52

grow. That feels

42:53

especially true when Pam looks back on

42:55

the men and her life during

42:57

the nineteen seventies. I didn't

42:58

chase Kareem. I didn't chase Richard. I

43:00

didn't chase Freddie. None of

43:01

them who I

43:04

really love. but I loved

43:06

a part of them. I didn't love them completely

43:08

because they didn't have

43:10

good habits. Well, I can't marry

43:11

you because you're gonna mess up

43:13

my life. So

43:14

I am gonna choose family myself. There

43:16

were times when that choice wasn't

43:17

easy, times when Pam got

43:20

lonely or

43:20

when she felt others were

43:22

judging her.

43:24

When women

43:25

said, I know I'm

43:26

validated if I'm married.

43:30

But if you're

43:31

not married, you're not

43:34

worthy. I was single and

43:35

very successful and doing

43:38

everything the men did that my grandfather

43:40

told me

43:42

to do. It's not clear to

43:43

me that Pam ever really wanted to get

43:45

married, or maybe the marriage she wanted

43:47

just didn't seem possible. one

43:49

where her career mattered just as much as her

43:52

partners, where her fame wouldn't be an

43:54

issue, where she could travel TCM last minute

43:56

to a movie set and be gone for

43:58

three or four months. And

44:00

there are many

44:01

times I thought of just okay, I'm

44:04

done. You know, I'm good to

44:06

go. I wanna go home and just have the

44:08

farm and go and kids and

44:10

raise them and take them to the mountains and

44:12

ski and then take them to the beach so they can

44:14

serve and, you know, just do

44:16

everything, be a

44:18

well rounded you know, a human being. I thought of that many,

44:20

many times. And I

44:22

really

44:22

would have enjoyed that.

44:25

I really wouldn't, but I don't find it a tragedy

44:27

because I think there's, you know, maybe

44:29

a fatalist, but there is a reason

44:31

for everything.

44:33

And sometimes can't find the

44:35

answers. Pam doesn't say much about her current

44:37

relationship except that she's taking

44:40

it slow. Come

44:42

on now.

44:43

you

44:45

know, I'm gonna you know, I just

44:47

I'm just gonna let the the the

44:50

truth and

44:51

the trust develop. first,

44:54

you

44:54

know,

44:55

that's really

44:57

important. And

44:59

Pam keeps working. She had a

45:01

role in a movie shot over the summer and in a TV series on

45:04

Amazon. She's busy. At seventy

45:05

three, her world

45:07

has not gotten small.

45:10

It's tempting to think

45:12

what it would be like if

45:15

twenty year old Pam and her

45:18

aunt Mignon drove from

45:20

Denver to

45:21

Hollywood today.

45:23

If Pam Greer were

45:25

up and coming right

45:27

now, I think that she would have a

45:29

wider range of filmmakers to

45:32

work with. That would be

45:33

my hope. who would be able to see

45:36

the

45:36

talent and the complexity that she

45:38

brings to her movie roles as well

45:40

as her physicality because I don't wanna sort

45:43

of take that the

45:44

table. My name is coffee. I

45:46

think that she would

45:47

find herself in a

45:50

climate where she was

45:52

allowed to be more

45:54

fully human and whole in her film

45:56

roles as opposed to

45:58

having

45:58

to sort

45:59

of fight to bring that herself

46:01

into her parts. What is it you

46:03

really want? Justice.

46:04

She is a symbol of

46:07

a pretty glorious past in

46:10

terms of black representation, but

46:12

also a symbol of

46:14

what black representation

46:15

could

46:18

still be. See

46:25

the

46:26

mountains to my right. TCM

46:28

our

46:29

left planes. It was

46:33

last February

46:34

when we started working on this podcast.

46:37

out. Do you want me to go? Oh, yeah. I'm good. I don't remember

46:40

driving down a highway in Santa Fe, New

46:42

Mexico with a small crew. What time is there?

46:44

Like, my time to get up to too We woke

46:46

up this morning at I woke up

46:48

at six thirty, and then again at

46:50

six fifty one.

46:52

And to get out here, to see

46:54

Pam Greer on her ranch by eight o'clock. We've already made a

46:56

wrong turn. We were trying to get the

46:58

Pam's ranch in time to feed her

47:02

horses. And I think that's

47:04

that's her place up ahead yet.

47:07

We

47:07

found Pam's house on

47:10

twelve acres of flat land. a farm

47:12

windmill on one side, a

47:14

barn on the other.

47:16

That's beautiful.

47:17

This is beautiful.

47:19

and that is TCM

47:21

Greer,

47:21

dancing

47:23

TCM

47:24

our right. Right

47:26

right

47:27

now. This is the

47:30

place. Hello,

47:32

Pam. Pam

47:34

was dancing next to a small

47:36

SUV with the doors

47:38

wide open, the stereo

47:40

blaring the talking heads. Welcome

47:43

to the Rancho. She was wearing

47:45

a cowboy hat and aviator

47:48

sunglasses. Come

47:50

on now. That's how I greet

47:52

everybody. When we pulled up, I couldn't hear the music.

47:54

And so I didn't know you were dancing to

47:56

actual music. Absolutely.

47:58

I need everybody here

47:59

with my environment. My

48:02

animals are waiting there,

48:03

like, oh, shit. We

48:05

don't we don't Rock

48:07

today,

48:09

mama's here.

48:13

We managed to

48:15

get the

48:16

horses fed and

48:19

inspect Pam's well. You're

48:21

opening the well. I'd help you, but

48:24

I have no idea what you're gonna do. Don't worry. Don't worry. It's

48:26

okay. I

48:29

didn't know then what horses meant to Pan, that

48:31

they had always made her feel less

48:34

alone in the

48:36

world. That

48:36

was the first of three days of interviews

48:38

with Pan, Days of laughing

48:41

and a lot of talking.

48:43

It wasn't

48:44

always easy to follow, but she

48:46

and I would always find a way to connect

48:48

again. she'd sing.

48:50

And when she told stories,

48:52

you felt her history unfolding.

48:54

Rooms you weren't in came

48:56

to life. Those three

48:57

days feel like a long time

49:00

ago now, but among the things I'll

49:02

remember forever will be

49:04

that arrival. Pam

49:06

danced in silhouette during the opening credits of

49:09

Foxy Brown. Imagine the joy

49:11

of finding Pam Greer forty

49:13

eight years later dancing in

49:16

the early morning hours under a

49:18

desert sky.

49:20

I wake

49:20

up and say, I'm a lie. Jeez.

49:24

I'm a lie. I I can't believe

49:26

it.

49:26

That's a milestone for me. In our crazy world,

49:29

it really is.

49:53

Angela Corona is our

49:55

director of podcast. Story editors are Joanne Ferreyen

49:57

and Sherry OKK. Audio

49:59

editing and sound design by

50:02

Mike vulgaris. Script

50:04

writing by Yoko Friedman, Rachel Pilgrim, Angela

50:06

Corona, and me. Yoko Friedman

50:09

is our senior producer. James

50:12

Sheridan is our researcher and fact

50:14

checker, mixing by Glenn

50:16

Matoulo and Tim Pelletier,

50:18

production support from

50:20

Julie Beton Mario Riles, Susana Zapata, Liz

50:22

Winter, Alison Fire,

50:24

Phil Richards, and Reed Hall.

50:27

web support by TCM Thanks

50:30

to David Byrne, Taren Jacobs,

50:32

Carolyn Widmore, Dexter Fedor,

50:34

Marci Saco, Gen Aviv McGillicuddy,

50:37

and Mark Wins, and the

50:39

entire TCM marketing team. Original

50:41

music in the podcast comes from the

50:43

band, Cadillac Jones. Believe it or

50:46

not, their base player is

50:48

also our lawyer, John

50:50

Renault. Thanks to John, Christian

50:52

Hassel and Salang Moulton. Thomas Avery of

50:54

Toon Welders composed our theme

50:56

music. Our executive producer is

50:58

Charlie Tavish, TCM's General

51:00

Manager is Volishagna. Check out our

51:02

website at TCM dot com

51:04

backslash the plot thickens. It has

51:06

info about each episode and

51:08

photos from throughout

51:10

Pam's life. Again, that's TCM dot com backslash the

51:12

block thickness.

51:16

Stay tuned

51:17

for bonus episodes. featuring

51:19

some of my favorite interviews from

51:21

the

51:22

season. This

51:26

has been season four of TCM plot

51:28

thickens. a podcast from TCM. I'm Ben Makowitz.

51:30

All of us at TCM

51:32

are so glad you listened.

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