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Thanks to Shopify for supporting

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Com premium subscription at com.com/TPS. Welcome

0:30

back to the pro-tivity show, a podcast

0:32

where we believe that people like you

0:34

can get the important things down without

0:36

sacrificing your health, family, and things that

0:39

matter to you. If it's your first

0:41

time listening, welcome to the show, my

0:43

name is Tam Fam, I'm the founder

0:45

of the Asian Efficiency, where we help

0:48

people become more productive at work in

0:50

a life, and I do this podcast

0:52

together with my co-host, Brooks Duncan. And

0:54

how's life, Brooks, good to see you.

0:56

Yeah, life's pretty good. I made a

0:59

big change to my life. I installed

1:01

a headphone hook under my desk and

1:03

it's one of those little quality of

1:05

life things that, you know, once you

1:08

do it, it's a pretty great actually.

1:10

It's nice to have my headphones hanging

1:12

there and I can grab them whenever

1:14

I need them. Okay, I have to

1:17

ask then, is this a actual hook

1:19

designed for that purpose or are you

1:21

like me and you bought a $5

1:23

per hook and you kind of repurposed

1:25

that for that? Well, I was going

1:27

to say, it is an actual

1:29

hook for headphones, but it's really

1:32

unnecessary. You can use pretty much

1:34

anything that will hold headphones. It's

1:36

good enough. So yeah, I went

1:38

the nerdy route, but totally unnecessary.

1:40

So for those who are listening, if

1:42

you buy a $5 per hook on Amazon,

1:44

you are totally fine as well. That's what

1:47

I use personally. And we always like to

1:49

start off our episodes with our top three

1:51

favorite resources. This is not one of them,

1:53

but consider that as a bonus. Speaking of

1:55

top three, I have three of them here

1:57

today. So the first one is a book.

2:00

4,000 weeks by Oliver Berkman. We've referenced

2:02

this book a few times on the

2:04

pod and we both like it, recommended,

2:06

and based on today's episode topic about,

2:09

you know, organizing your time, this is

2:11

something that I think a lot of

2:13

people would resonate with. So go check

2:15

out that book 4,000 weeks. The second

2:18

one is an app called T-O-G-G-L, and

2:20

this is a time tracking app. It's

2:22

free, you can use it at, you

2:24

know, no cost, I've used it. Maybe

2:27

first time was like 2012. They've had

2:29

some changes in iterations over the years,

2:31

but I remember back in the day

2:33

when it was just first release and

2:36

I really liked it. And even to

2:38

this day, it's something that I still

2:40

recommend. And, you know, it's mostly web-based

2:42

now and everything. So go check out

2:45

toggle. And then the third one is

2:47

an app I've referenced many times as

2:49

one. I want to bring it up

2:51

again. It's called One SEC. It's basically

2:54

an app that forces you to pause

2:56

distracting apps and then it makes you

2:58

make a decision to say, hey, do

3:00

you want to use this app? Yes

3:03

or no? So imagine, for example, every

3:05

time you open up TikTok, you see

3:07

like a bar coming on your screen

3:09

that's kind of like loading and telling

3:12

you like five, four, three, two, one.

3:14

Do you want to continue to use

3:16

TikTok? And then you have to make

3:19

a decision and say yes or no.

3:21

And if you say yes, then we'll

3:23

open up the TikTok app. But if

3:25

you say no, then we'll just go

3:28

back to something that you can determine,

3:30

like whether it's your home screen or

3:32

inspirational quote or something like that. And

3:34

so it forces you to actually think

3:37

about, do you want to continue to

3:39

use that app? And this is a

3:41

great way to stay focused and minimize

3:43

distraction. So go check out one second.

3:46

And we'll link to everything here in

3:48

the show notes as well. And, you

3:50

know, Brooks, I want to talk about

3:52

our philosophies around productivity, because it's going

3:55

to be relevant to today's episode around

3:57

organizing your time and your schedule, right?

3:59

Now, before we start diving into that,

4:01

one of the things that we're known

4:04

for is we always like to say

4:06

happy people are productive people. Two, one,

4:08

tweak a week is all it takes

4:10

to make massive productivity gains. And then

4:13

three, we want everything to be simple

4:15

and actionable. So as we are going

4:17

through today's episode, I want you to

4:19

keep these philosophies in mind and how

4:22

you can apply these in your life,

4:24

especially when it comes to organizing your

4:26

time and schedule. And we actually have

4:28

three strategies to help people. maximize their

4:31

time and organize it in such a

4:33

way that feels good to them. I

4:35

imagine a lot of people listening to

4:37

the show are familiar with, you know,

4:40

the podcast are familiar with productivity concepts,

4:42

strategies, you know, as I was putting

4:44

this together with you, I was kind

4:46

of keeping the person in mind that

4:49

is So much familiar with a lot

4:51

of ideas already, but somehow still struggles

4:53

with managing their time and organizing it

4:55

and making sure that stuff is getting

4:58

done on time. So speak to the

5:00

listener here for a second Brooks about

5:02

just the basic and the fundamental. So

5:04

we're all on the same page before

5:07

we start diving into some of the

5:09

strategies. I'm glad that Time is finally

5:11

getting its due on the podcast. This

5:14

is a funny thing to say, but

5:16

in recent episodes, we've talked about the

5:18

T framework. Time, energy, and attention, how

5:20

these are three levers that can really

5:23

impact your productivity. And we almost ignore

5:25

time sometimes because we want to highlight

5:27

the other ones. We want to highlight

5:29

how energy is this like silent productivity

5:32

killer that can impact other things. We

5:34

talk about. attention if you're not focusing

5:36

on the right things, then you know,

5:38

the rest of the stuff doesn't matter

5:41

as much. Both of that's true, but

5:43

it doesn't change the fact that you

5:45

need to be in control of your

5:47

time as well. And that's the first

5:50

thing a lot of us notice when

5:52

we're struggling with productivity or when we

5:54

want to ramp up our productivity is

5:56

we want to just hit that time

5:59

lever. And so I think taking a

6:01

step back, kind of rediscovering the fundamentals

6:03

of what helps one. control their time.

6:05

I think it's really timely if you'll

6:08

pardon the pun because I think sometimes

6:10

we can focus on attention and focus

6:12

strategies and then forget about the low-hanging

6:14

fruit that is there to be dealt

6:17

with with time. One of your favorite

6:19

quotes that always resonates with me in

6:21

that I bring up all the time

6:23

is you don't find time for things

6:25

that matter. whole idea for you come

6:28

about. Yeah, well I definitely didn't invent

6:30

it. I don't remember where I got

6:32

it, but it is definitely something I

6:34

try to keep in mind because this

6:36

is one thing we hear a lot.

6:38

And you know, I catch myself saying

6:41

it too. I don't have time to

6:43

do that or I need to find

6:45

time to do X, Y, Z, whatever

6:47

it is that I want to do.

6:49

But the fact of the matter is

6:52

our entire life is based on priorities,

6:54

right? we have to make the time

6:56

to make it happen. We have to

6:58

look at our schedule and say, okay,

7:00

if I want to do X, I

7:02

need to give up Y. And the

7:05

sooner we can make that realization, the

7:07

more in control of our schedules and

7:09

our life it is. Like, for example,

7:11

I was working with this company that

7:13

acquired another company. And so as a

7:16

part of that, you know, I had

7:18

to learn a whole new software product.

7:20

I had these additional responsibilities. which sounds

7:22

fine except you know the stuff I

7:24

was doing the day before the acquisition

7:26

didn't all of a sudden go away

7:29

and so what I had to do

7:31

is I had to look at my

7:33

schedule and say okay I need to

7:35

carve out let's just say 45 minutes

7:37

at the end of each day to

7:40

focus on learning this new software product

7:42

and I need to start making choices

7:44

of the other things I was doing

7:46

what can I like optimize or give

7:48

up because I want to make learning

7:51

this product a priority. So it's all

7:53

about. So deciding what your priorities are

7:55

and then making that time and hard

7:57

choices, and sometimes hard choices really suck,

7:59

right? But making those hard choices to

8:01

make time for the things you want

8:04

to do. That's how I think of

8:06

it anyway. Yeah, one of the things

8:08

you also say is that everything is

8:10

a trade-off, right? So like if you

8:12

say yes to one thing, you say

8:15

no to something else by default, right?

8:17

And then in the analogy, I always

8:19

like to use a metaphor when I

8:21

work with coach of clients, you know,

8:23

when you married your significant other, you

8:25

said yes to that person. But implicitly,

8:28

you also said no to all other

8:30

suitors or other people that are out

8:32

there, whether you realize that or not.

8:34

And it's the same thing with commitments

8:36

and priorities that we have in our

8:39

lives when you said, hey, I'm gonna

8:41

do this, then you also said no

8:43

to potentially 10, 20, 50, 100 other

8:45

different things. And if we just bring

8:47

awareness to that, then you start to

8:49

realize that managing and organizing your time

8:52

is just one of those things that

8:54

is a natural byproduct of. that commitment

8:56

that you make because when I said

8:58

yes to working on this particular project

9:00

now the vehicle for me to complete

9:03

that is figuring out how do I

9:05

organize my time in such a way

9:07

so it does get done right so

9:09

it's not something that happens by accidents

9:11

and that's the difference between being what

9:13

we always like to say is reactive

9:16

versus proactive right if you are trying

9:18

to find time then you're being reactive

9:20

whereas if you're trying to be more

9:22

proactive, which is what we all strive

9:24

for, that's when you're making time for

9:27

stuff. So when I'm planning my day

9:29

or planning my week, the reactive thing

9:31

to do is to say, oh, you

9:33

know what? I'm going to figure out

9:35

sometime on Tuesday to work on this.

9:37

And then when Tuesday comes around, you're

9:40

going to be like, okay, I know

9:42

I need to kind of do this

9:44

particular project or this thing, but I'll

9:46

figure it out today. when I'm going

9:48

to work on it. And then typically

9:51

what happens is by the end of

9:53

the day, you go, oh my gosh,

9:55

I never got to the thing that

9:57

I said I wanted to do, it's

9:59

going to... roll over into the next

10:01

day, and that typically rolls over into

10:04

the next day after that. And then

10:06

there's like 24 or 48 hours left,

10:08

and you're like, oh my gosh, I

10:10

still haven't done it. I'm gonna crank

10:12

out some extra hours in the night

10:15

or in the evening or I'm gonna

10:17

wake up earlier or stay up later.

10:19

And then you're stressing yourself out over

10:21

a deadline or something you have to

10:23

get done, when in fact, you already

10:25

knew that this was due a week

10:28

ago or two weeks ago, right? If

10:30

you think of the proactive approach to

10:32

say, hey, I know this is coming

10:34

up, I have to find, not find,

10:36

but make time for the things that

10:39

I want to do, okay, how do

10:41

I allocate time on my calendar to

10:43

do this? If I'm going to say

10:45

that I'm going to work on this

10:47

on Tuesday, I'm going to find spots

10:50

on my calendar to make time for

10:52

the things that need to be done,

10:54

right? So then I might say, okay,

10:56

I found a spot. between two and

10:58

three o'clock on Tuesday to work on

11:00

this particular thing. So I'm going to

11:03

block it off and then work on

11:05

it. And now you're being proactive because

11:07

before that time arrives or before even

11:09

that day arrives, you already know that

11:11

you're going to be working on it.

11:14

So if you think about organizing your

11:16

time from a reactive versus proactive approach,

11:18

I think that that's something that's going

11:20

to be helpful to some people to

11:22

go, hey, Oh, this is what it

11:24

means to be reactive. Like you're just

11:27

trying to catch up really the whole

11:29

time when you're just going about your

11:31

day versus saying, hey, I'm going to

11:33

start my day or start my week

11:35

with the intention to do X, Y,

11:38

and Z at these particular times. That's

11:40

when you know you're being proactive. Yeah,

11:42

reactive versus proactive is. A perfect way

11:44

to describe the idea of finding versus

11:46

making. If you're living in a reactive

11:48

mode, you are always finding time. You're

11:51

always trying to fit things in. Whereas

11:53

if you're proactive, you're always making time.

11:55

You're always making decisions and trade-off. So

11:57

yeah, reactive versus proactive as we go

11:59

through today's episode. That's the through line

12:02

I'd like listeners to take is how

12:04

can I be more proactive as I'm

12:06

putting some of these strategies in. place.

12:08

Okay, so let's start with the first

12:10

tip done here about being more proactive

12:12

and what does that exactly look like,

12:15

right? So I wrote down some guidelines

12:17

that I think are helpful. So I'm

12:19

really curious about this if you actually

12:21

agree with these Brooks because you and

12:23

I are informally or formally talked about

12:26

this. So when I think about organizing

12:28

my time and being proactive about it,

12:30

I would say One of my guidelines

12:32

is if I have 90 minutes of

12:34

focus time or uninterrupted time every single

12:36

day, that's something that I want to

12:39

accomplish and strive for every single day.

12:41

Two hours would be amazing. That's kind

12:43

of like, you know, gold metal level

12:45

status. If I had one hour, that

12:47

would be kind of like bronze metal.

12:50

If I had 90 minutes, so it's

12:52

kind of like silver. Like if I

12:54

do consistently silver, I'm like pretty good.

12:56

Every now and then, hit a home

12:58

run and get a gold. I'm great.

13:00

You know, if I get bronze, I'll

13:03

sell it for it. But ideally, you

13:05

know, I want to get silver and

13:07

gold as much as I can. Right.

13:09

So most people will know what they

13:11

want to do or have to do

13:14

that day, but the missing piece is

13:16

the when part. And I think if

13:18

you think about starting your day every

13:20

single day with the intention of knowing

13:22

what to do when, like when meaning

13:24

what time or what time of day,

13:27

do you have it blocked off, is

13:29

it allocated, that in itself will make

13:31

a big difference in terms of... your

13:33

productivity. And that's you being proactive as

13:35

well. And then the third guideline I

13:38

would say is it's one thing to

13:40

know what to do and when, but

13:42

it's also another thing to prioritize your

13:44

to-do list. And that will oftentimes will

13:46

be the biggest struggle I find for

13:49

most people is, you know, I'd have

13:51

10 things to do and everything looks

13:53

equally important. So if you think about

13:55

those three guidelines, right, 90 minutes. An

13:57

interruptive focus time. knowing ahead where you're

13:59

going to be doing when, and then

14:02

also having a prioritized to do list.

14:04

I would say those three things, if

14:06

you have that in place, then organizing

14:08

and managing your time becomes much easier.

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shopify.com/TPS. So you just

15:34

realized that your business needed

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to hire someone yesterday. How

15:39

can you find amazing candidates

15:41

fast? with

22:00

all of the things that you said.

22:02

I think another objection people might have

22:04

is that the 90 minutes might be

22:07

difficult. They feel like, oh, I'm, you

22:09

know, I've just got so many interruptions

22:11

or I've just multitasking so much. And

22:13

if you can't start with 90 minutes,

22:16

it doesn't mean that you shouldn't try.

22:18

Like start with whatever you can do

22:20

to focus on, even if you can

22:23

only focus on, say, 20 minutes a

22:25

day on the things that really... will

22:27

move the needle for you, your North

22:29

Star, like you said. If you have

22:31

to start there, then start there, but

22:33

just try to have it as a

22:35

goal and something you work towards to

22:37

expand that to that 90 minutes when

22:39

you can. Just because you can't do

22:41

it now doesn't mean you won't be able

22:44

to it in the future. Yeah, I

22:46

think that's a great thing to add,

22:48

which is most people will not be

22:50

able to work 90 minutes on interrupt

22:52

it's the first time they try. For

22:54

most people, I think 30 minutes is

22:57

a really good starting point. It's kind

22:59

of like an expanded version of Pomodoro,

23:01

right? But over time, if you can

23:03

work your way up to 45, 60

23:05

minutes, you know, 75, 90 minutes, you'll

23:08

start to realize it's much easier today

23:10

you think it is. So imagine, regardless

23:12

of your situation right now, being able

23:15

to focus for 90 minutes on projects,

23:17

on work, that matters. without being interrupted or

23:19

having intense level of focus or just

23:21

being a flow for 90 minutes, like

23:23

how much more can you accomplish when

23:25

you have that going on day after

23:28

day after day after day, right? It's

23:30

going to be such a big lever

23:32

for you to pull and also such

23:34

an efficiency hack in your life to

23:36

be able to just get stuff done

23:38

faster because it's just not quite the

23:40

same when you work, you know, I'm

23:42

using an extreme example here, but like

23:44

10 minute increments of... intense focus doing

23:47

that nine times versus one block

23:49

of 90 minutes and just focusing

23:51

on one particular task right it's

23:53

not even though it's the same

23:55

time allocation your output your quality

23:57

of work when you are able

23:59

to work for one block of 90

24:01

minutes is so much more impactful and

24:04

powerful better compared to just 10 minute

24:06

increments nine times throughout today. So that's

24:08

another way to think about it is

24:10

like if you want to organize your

24:13

time, organize for large blocks of time

24:15

to focus because your output in efficiency

24:17

is a lot higher compared to just

24:19

little split blocks throughout today. So how

24:22

do you how do you do this?

24:24

Like a weird question but how do

24:26

you what are the like tactics or

24:28

the nuts and bolts of how you

24:31

plan and organize. You know, we've talked

24:33

about the importance of it, but what

24:35

are the things that you personally do

24:37

to say organize your week in your

24:40

day? Yeah, so that brings us actually

24:42

to the second point, which is apps,

24:44

tools, and workflows to help you accomplish

24:46

this, right? So if we understand the

24:49

concept of organizing your time in such

24:51

a way, how do we actually do

24:53

it then? So the easiest thing. And

24:55

this is step number one for most

24:58

people is to block it off on

25:00

your calendar. That's the easiest thing. And

25:02

for those who have been studying for

25:04

a while know that, okay, I get

25:07

that, you know, that makes sense, but

25:09

how do I actually translate this, right?

25:11

So the friction that I see sometimes

25:13

people have is one, they don't use

25:16

a calendar yet, and that's the first

25:18

step that you have to learn, is

25:20

using a calendar. I would say most

25:22

people kind of, are familiar, using a

25:25

calendar. I want to make sure you're

25:27

using a calendar that you actually know

25:29

how to use and enjoy using. And

25:32

it sounds funny, but most people, they

25:34

kind of are creatures of habit, and

25:36

they've learned one particular calendar tool or

25:38

app that they were just thrown into

25:41

using, right? Maybe for the first time

25:43

you were introduced to Outlook, or it's

25:45

Google calendar, or something else, and you're

25:47

just like, oh, this is what I'm

25:50

going to be using and sticking to.

25:52

You're just going to use it, right?

25:54

And I'm here to say that there's

25:56

a lot of calendar alternatives. I love

25:59

them. that are wrappers around particular back-end.

26:01

So like, even though I'm not a

26:03

big fan of the Google Calendar interface

26:05

myself, I use an app called Fantasticall,

26:08

which uses Google Calendar on the back

26:10

end. It just has a different UI

26:12

that I think is easier and more

26:14

user-friendly to use, right? But it uses

26:17

the back-end technology of Google Calendar. So

26:19

all of this is a find an

26:21

app like Fantasticall that you like and

26:23

enjoy using. For the longest time I

26:26

use Busical. I really like that, but

26:28

then fantastical kind of took it over.

26:30

Because once you like the app that

26:32

you use, then scheduling stuff and managing

26:35

your schedule becomes a whole lot easier

26:37

and more fun. So that's the other

26:39

thing I will say. And then the

26:41

third thing is everyone has blocks of

26:44

time in the day that is open

26:46

and available. And if you don't claim

26:48

it, somebody else will. And that's kind

26:50

of like... And we call it a

26:53

tragedy, but that's just the reality of

26:55

life, especially if we work in a

26:57

big organization. Someone else will claim your

26:59

time. So the proactive thing to do

27:02

is to actually block it off so

27:04

nobody else can take it from you.

27:06

And if something comes up, you have

27:08

the power or position to renegotiate how

27:11

you're going to use up that time

27:13

if someone needs it from you, right?

27:15

So that's why blocking off that time

27:17

is so important. And then the fourth

27:20

thing is, how do we actually follow

27:22

through on this? Because a lot of

27:24

people will struggle, and I've seen this

27:26

so many times, Brooks, where they'll put

27:29

stuff on the calendar for 10 AM,

27:31

you know, 955, right? Just five minutes

27:33

away, and then they're still not done

27:35

with whatever they're working on, and people

27:38

are, you know, texting them, and they

27:40

need to be done. What do I

27:42

do? It's so easy to skip and

27:44

say, oh, you know, I'm not going

27:47

to work on this thing that I

27:49

scheduled. The harder thing to do, which

27:51

is not always the right solution, but

27:53

oftentimes this is to say no to

27:56

other things, to say, hey, I said

27:58

that I'm going to do. be doing

28:00

this at this time, everything else is

28:02

kind of secondary because I said yes

28:05

to this thing. I have to renegotiate

28:07

now how I'm going to use this

28:09

time. So maybe this 30 minute increment

28:11

that you schedule for yourself is something

28:14

that you might have to shorten a

28:16

little bit or you have to renegotiate

28:18

and say, hey I'm not going to

28:20

work on this at 10. I'm going

28:23

to have to find a new time

28:25

slot on my calendar to work on

28:27

this so that I still spend some

28:29

time doing that I'm doing. The hard

28:32

part is oftentimes to follow through. Here's

28:34

something that happens a lot. We say

28:36

yes to others because we want to

28:38

be helpful or we think we should,

28:41

but often that means we're saying no

28:43

to ourselves. And neglecting our own needs

28:45

for too long can lead to resentment

28:47

and burnout. I mean, you know how

28:50

it goes, right? You have to put

28:52

your oxygen mask on first before you

28:54

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com.com/TPS. Yeah, the other thing I would

30:02

say about calendar apps as an example,

30:04

and to-do apps I would say are

30:06

the same, and sometimes they're one in

30:09

the same app, but calendar apps in

30:11

particular is, ideally you want to use

30:13

an app that you like if you

30:15

can, but sometimes we don't have a

30:18

choice, right? Sometimes we work somewhere, we

30:20

have to use Outlook, or we just

30:22

can install other apps, which is fine.

30:24

Even if somebody, for example, has to

30:27

use Outlook, there's a lot of us

30:29

just start using it and never customize

30:31

anything. And you can actually make even

30:33

a tool like Outlook. You can do

30:36

things to make it your own. You

30:38

can change the way the windows are.

30:40

You can learn some keyboard shortcuts. You

30:42

can set up some, you know, customize

30:45

the ribbon a little bit to make

30:47

things how you want it. Even spending

30:49

a little time learning the tool that

30:51

you use, even if you have no

30:54

choice what tool that is, can still

30:56

make it a much better experience to

30:58

work with and make you more productive

31:00

for very little time expense, I would

31:03

say. So even if you don't have

31:05

a choice, get to know the tools

31:07

that you do use and learn how

31:09

to... kind of suit them for you

31:12

instead of you having to suit the

31:14

way their defaults are. So that's one

31:16

thing. The other thing I would say

31:18

is I think apps, they're important. But

31:21

they're not as important as, like you

31:23

said, they're not as important as what

31:25

we do with them. And, you know,

31:27

we've all heard about the people who

31:30

are super productive, and all they do

31:32

is they write their top five things

31:34

they want to do on a day

31:36

on a piece of paper, and that's

31:39

all they do. No apps, you know,

31:41

know, know anything. So it's really the

31:43

mindset and the commitment to their plan

31:45

for the day. I think that is

31:48

the most important thing more than apps.

31:50

for sure. For sure, the technology is

31:52

just there to make things a little

31:54

easier to organize. right? But at the

31:57

end of the day the outcome and

31:59

the output that we produce is what

32:01

matters most. How we do that organizing

32:03

our time is just kind of like

32:06

a vehicle to get there because if

32:08

I organize my time so that I

32:10

work on this particular outcome between 10

32:12

and 11 a.m. I'm kind of guaranteeing

32:15

in setting myself up to produce that

32:17

outcome. Right. So for example I always

32:19

tell people, you know, know the difference

32:21

between a task and an outcome. Most

32:24

of us focus on working on a

32:26

task at a particular time, right? I'm

32:28

going to be collecting documents to file

32:30

my taxes. For example, that's maybe a

32:33

task, but an outcome could be my

32:35

taxes are filed by the end of

32:37

today. That's an outcome. An outcome typically

32:39

has multiple tasks. It's not just one.

32:42

Typically encompasses two, three, four, five, sometimes

32:44

even ten different things, right. And so

32:46

the people that are really good, and

32:48

when I say get just really productive

32:51

and effective, they typically write stuff in

32:53

outcomes because it forces them to think

32:55

through then about the different tasks that

32:57

you have to do. And they might

33:00

allocate time on their calendar, say, hey,

33:02

between nine and 10, I'm going to

33:04

be working on this particular outcome, or

33:06

having my taxes filed. And it could

33:09

actually encompass like five different things that

33:11

they end up doing during that time

33:13

block, but at least during that time

33:16

they're getting closer to the outcome that

33:18

they're looking for. And so when it

33:20

comes to absent tools, I think it's

33:22

just like you're saying, good to have,

33:25

make things a little bit more efficient.

33:27

It's nice to know on the calendar

33:29

to see like what you're doing on

33:31

a Friday, right? But at the end

33:34

of the day, it's really about you

33:36

following through on the time commitments that

33:38

you make for yourself. and blocking off

33:40

time on the calendar is just an

33:43

easy way to do that for a

33:45

lot of people. But some people can

33:47

just like you said, just say, hey,

33:49

I'm gonna write down my five things

33:52

I'm gonna be doing today and I'll

33:54

figure out a way to get it

33:56

done. Right. That to me is kind

33:58

of like, I wouldn't say super advanced,

34:01

but like, if there's like different levels,

34:03

that's like. That's pretty high up there.

34:05

That's like Brooks Duncan level, you know,

34:07

for most people. I think blocking off

34:10

time is the way to go. So

34:12

speaking of blocking off time, are you

34:14

like a hyper scheduler? Do you block

34:16

off every half hour or every hour

34:19

of your day? Or how do you

34:21

do that when you are planning your

34:23

day? So

34:25

I've tried all sorts of different things.

34:27

I've gone from what you just described,

34:29

you know, three to five things to

34:32

be done in a day and just

34:34

have an empty schedule and to figure

34:36

out a way to get it done.

34:38

I've also gone the opposite route, which

34:40

is scheduling maybe every 15 minutes or

34:42

so in my day. I've gone that

34:44

route before. I remember you and I

34:47

were talking about this on an episode

34:49

a while back ago where one of

34:51

the VCs in Silicon Valley was like,

34:53

hey, my schedule is like this. I

34:55

just have every 15 minutes on my

34:57

calendar figured out, right? I don't know

34:59

if you remember that, but I was

35:02

like, that's a very intense life to

35:04

live because I've lived it and it's

35:06

very intense. And it's not for everybody.

35:08

It works for some people, but for

35:10

most people I think it's too intense.

35:12

So I am somewhere in the middle

35:14

where I shoot for one outcome per

35:17

day. And then there's a two prong

35:19

approach there. One is I like to

35:21

plan my week every Sunday. So I

35:23

kind of like to think about, okay,

35:25

on Monday I want to accomplish this,

35:27

on Tuesday I want to accomplish that,

35:29

on Wednesday I want to accomplish that.

35:32

And once I kind of know what

35:34

those blocks kind of look like, my

35:36

priorities and commitments on those particular days,

35:38

then the next step will be, okay,

35:40

how do I find time on my

35:42

calendar? to make sure I can allocate

35:44

it to work on it. So then

35:47

I look at Mondays and go, okay,

35:49

I want to work on, you know,

35:51

let's just say this pickleball project or

35:53

whatever. Okay, I see a gap between

35:55

12 and 3. Let me see what's

35:57

the best way to utilize that time

35:59

block for me. So maybe it could

36:02

be, you know, I'm scheduling something for

36:04

60 minutes, right? Oh, because I need

36:06

to eat lunch as well. I typically

36:08

don't schedule my lunch, but I know

36:10

usually during that time I'm pretty hungry.

36:12

I might go for a lunch break

36:14

during that time. So then I'd say,

36:17

okay, between 1.30 and 2.30 is probably

36:19

more realistic, right? But then I go,

36:21

oh, you know what? This, this time

36:23

block is usually when I'm kind of

36:25

lethargic. And so it's still good use

36:27

of my time block then. If not,

36:29

then I might have to renegotiate and

36:32

say, you know, if this requires a

36:34

lot of focus, maybe I should do

36:36

that in the mornings because I tend

36:38

to be more realistic. I think the

36:40

takeaway from this is that again I'm

36:42

being proactive about what I'm trying to

36:44

do here and I'm thinking through just

36:47

some some decisions there. So that's how

36:49

I like to do it. It's been

36:51

a journey for me because I've tried

36:53

all sorts of different approaches. Eventually this

36:55

is the one I settled on. How

36:57

about you? I'm curious, how do you

36:59

make stuff happen? Well I will say

37:02

that the I think the importance and

37:04

granularity of time blocks is really impacted

37:06

by your work culture and work situation.

37:08

So if you're in a job where

37:10

you've got tons of people booking you

37:12

meetings and you've just got a lot

37:14

of time interactions with other people, it

37:17

becomes really important to get those things.

37:19

blocked off on your calendar. Like you

37:21

said, this is one thing that it's

37:23

almost like a test of people. You

37:25

could tell people who have worked in

37:27

corporate and who haven't because for a

37:29

lot of people this concept that other

37:32

people can like go on your calendar

37:34

and like just book stuff is like

37:36

crazy crazy making to them. But for

37:38

those of us who have lived that

37:40

life, we know that's just how it

37:42

works. Or sometimes they don't even look

37:44

at your calendar. They just book stuff

37:47

anyway, or at least try to. that

37:49

situation where you are being invited to

37:51

a lot of things, now whether you

37:53

need to go to those things is

37:55

a whole different podcast, but you know,

37:57

you're being invited to those things is

37:59

really critical to get your priorities and

38:02

things you want to do on your

38:04

calendar. If you're not in that situation,

38:06

if you need it for like discipline.

38:08

and motivation reasons or organization reasons do

38:10

it, but I think you can probably

38:12

be a little less intense about the

38:14

time blocking. The way I tend to

38:17

do it, I don't block off every

38:19

hour of my day or anything like

38:21

that. What I do is I have

38:23

basic, the way I think of it

38:25

is I have. two themes for the

38:27

day, morning theme and afternoon theme. And

38:29

like you said, an outcome. I have

38:32

like a morning outcome. This is what

38:34

I want to have done for the

38:36

morning and an afternoon outcome. This is

38:38

what I want to have done for

38:40

the afternoon. And it may be that

38:42

they're the same. Maybe I'm working on

38:44

something large enough that both my morning

38:47

and my afternoon are the same. In

38:49

fact, that is the case for today.

38:51

No offense 10, but this thing we're

38:53

doing right now is actually not my,

38:55

my, my, my, my, outcome for today.

38:57

But this is actually a great example

38:59

because this is something that I have

39:02

booked, this is something I am spending,

39:04

however long this episode ends up being,

39:06

this is something I'm doing today, but

39:08

I also know that I need to

39:10

make sure that I have my outcome

39:12

done as well. And so this is

39:14

a way that works really well for

39:17

me because then I know Other things

39:19

will come up, but I have a

39:21

through line of this is what I

39:23

want to be doing before lunch. This

39:25

is what I want to be doing

39:27

before I call it a day. Sometimes

39:29

it doesn't happen. You know, things come

39:32

up, obviously. That's just the way life

39:34

works. But having a North Star, like

39:36

you said, I find really helpful and

39:38

breaking it up between morning and afternoon,

39:40

just works well for me. Might not

39:42

work for everybody, but it does for

39:44

me. Okay if we're so good at

39:47

organizing our time right how do we

39:49

maintain flexibility throughout this because I think

39:51

being flexible is something that I in

39:53

the past have underestimated how valuable this

39:55

because I can be pretty rigid and

39:57

go well you know this is what

39:59

my day looks like, you know, if

40:02

you want me, see me in 2025

40:04

or whatever, like or the next day

40:06

or the week after. But I've learned

40:08

being flexible is actually very valuable as

40:10

well. So when you are organizing your

40:12

time, how can you balance the two

40:14

where you go, hey, I want to

40:17

focus on this and do this and

40:19

do this at this time to also

40:21

being flexible enough? And I think this

40:23

is going to be very situational because

40:25

I was working with a coaching client

40:27

recently and he was working in a

40:29

company that I mean their revenue was

40:32

growing like 10-15% per month and he

40:34

was just responsible for a lot of

40:36

different things and so he was really

40:38

struggling with just keeping up with all

40:40

the things that need to be done

40:42

and it was really hard for him

40:44

to block off time because things were

40:47

just breaking down there's emergencies every day

40:49

right but I was basically telling him

40:51

like hey if you can just focus

40:53

for 30 minutes every single day on

40:55

one particular task that you know needs

40:57

to be done in the future. That's

40:59

a win. Let's start there, right? And

41:02

then in order for you to feel

41:04

like you're on top of everything, I

41:06

mentioned to him that, you know, for

41:08

most people, we do a regular review.

41:10

That's what I always recommend. But in

41:12

your situation, you have to do a

41:14

daily review. Like every day, somewhere midday,

41:17

you have to stop for 10, 15

41:19

minutes. Reevaluate all your priorities reevaluate all

41:21

your tasks all the things that needs

41:23

to be done where you are being

41:25

needed in the organization and just adjust

41:27

What you have to do the remainder

41:29

part of the day, right? So we

41:32

kind of made a commitment to say

41:34

hey every day around lunch time You

41:36

just have to allocate 10-50 minutes to

41:38

just pause reset for a second and

41:40

just reorganize your time essentially and so

41:42

once he did that he felt he

41:44

was not being so frantic anymore because

41:47

now he could pause and reset every

41:49

day to go, okay, I know I'm

41:51

being needed, I know stuff is breaking

41:53

down, let me reprioritize, let me just

41:55

figure out, you know, and get my

41:57

ducks in order and just make sure

41:59

everything is going to be okay. And

42:02

I kind of have the game plan

42:04

how I'm going to be strategizing and

42:06

using the rest of my day instead

42:08

of just every day just firefighting putting

42:10

stuff out and then by the end

42:12

of the day going man I wish

42:14

I had done this particular task now

42:17

this is not done yet so I'm

42:19

gonna have to do it at the

42:21

end of day I'm gonna stay longer

42:23

at the office right and that that

42:25

is kind of like a negative spiral

42:27

that just continues every day and so

42:29

by just having that daily review that's

42:32

been really helpful and then it allows

42:34

him to be more flexible as well

42:36

because you know if he said that

42:38

was that he was going to work

42:40

on something at four o'clock but during

42:42

lunchtime when he does his daily review

42:44

he realized like hey this is not

42:47

unrealistic now he can make a decision

42:49

to go about what do I want

42:51

to do about this right and so

42:53

that's something that I think has been

42:55

really valuable for for him but also

42:57

in my own life when I'm going

42:59

through intense periods where a lot of

43:02

work has to be done a daily

43:04

review I think is one of the

43:06

key things you can implement. You said

43:08

an interesting phrase there, which is negative

43:10

spiral. And I think this is something

43:12

that doesn't get talked enough about when

43:14

it comes to productivity, which is a

43:17

lot of times we can set up

43:19

our amazing organization systems. Maybe we hear

43:21

about it on a podcast or read

43:23

it on a book or something like

43:25

that. But. When things kind of start

43:27

going wrong, like when we're in that

43:29

situation where we had a goal for

43:32

the day and it didn't happen, you

43:34

know, if it happens once, fine. But

43:36

if we find that that happens multiple

43:38

times, we start beating ourselves up, we

43:40

start not feeling like we're productive, we're

43:42

just... things start to feel hopeless and

43:44

maybe we are actually getting stuff done,

43:47

but we're not getting the stuff done

43:49

that when we set up our beautiful

43:51

time block schedule for the day, maybe

43:53

more often than not, it feels like

43:55

we're missing it and we start feeling

43:57

negative about it. And so I think

43:59

I think one thing as people

44:01

are putting this into practice, whatever

44:04

their organization system is, is

44:06

to recognize that there are

44:08

going to be lots of

44:10

times when things just don't

44:12

work out. And to forgive themselves

44:15

when it happens, not worry

44:17

if something, you know, doesn't get

44:19

done, you know, you want to be

44:21

as productive as you can. This is

44:23

one thing. It's quite interesting that you

44:25

brought up, and maybe this is why

44:27

you brought up, Oliver Berkman and 4,000

44:29

weeks, is one of the real themes

44:31

in that book is that, you know,

44:33

we can literally only do what we

44:35

can do. Like we all have literally

44:37

a set amount of time and we

44:40

can only do as much as we

44:42

can do. So if we try to

44:44

do more than that, it... you know,

44:46

it's just not going to work and

44:48

it's how we react to that that

44:50

really sets us up for success in

44:52

the future. So if you find yourself

44:54

missing more often than not, that's a

44:56

sign that you want to take a

44:58

step back and look into why that

45:00

is and try to make. make some

45:02

changes. You know, you want to hold

45:04

yourself to a standard as well. It's

45:06

not like, well, if I'm missing my

45:08

goals all the time, that's okay. You

45:10

know, you do want to be hitting

45:13

your goals, but you don't want that

45:15

to be creating a negative spiral as

45:17

well. So being flexible, making use of

45:19

those defer dates in Omni Focus, if

45:21

you're using or whatever your to-do list

45:23

that... is to like move things to

45:25

the next day. It doesn't mean you're

45:27

a failure. It just means maybe there's

45:30

some things you need to tweak. So

45:32

have some have some grace with yourself.

45:34

I think another thing that has helped me

45:36

over the years is I don't know how

45:38

you do this Brooks, but when I allocate

45:40

a time block on my calendar to say

45:42

how I'm going to be working on this,

45:44

I always make the assumption that I don't

45:46

finish it. during that time. Like I'm working

45:49

on it, but it doesn't guarantee and mean

45:51

that I finish it. And that has been

45:53

something that it's a subtle thing, but I

45:55

found it to be very helpful because if

45:57

I go in with the intention and the

45:59

expectation... that this is going to be done

46:01

during that time, it kind of puts unnecessary

46:04

pressure a little bit because we all work

46:06

on stuff that sometimes just takes a lot

46:08

longer than we anticipate it, right? Or we're

46:10

just running into a roadblock because we don't

46:13

have the right information in front of us.

46:15

Or like, hey, I don't have access to

46:17

this. or meeting notes, or I don't have

46:19

access to this file, or I don't have

46:22

the budget or the authority to do something.

46:24

And then we're like, oh, I'm stuck. And

46:26

now we feel kind of guilty or bad

46:28

that we didn't finish it because we had

46:31

the expectation going in that we were going

46:33

to get it done during that time block,

46:35

right? So. That's the thing I want to

46:37

mention here too, is when you allocate time

46:40

for something on your calendar, go in thinking

46:42

that you're going to be working on this,

46:44

but you don't have the outcome associated with

46:46

it. You're still getting closer to the outcome

46:49

because you allocated time for it and you're

46:51

working through it, but it's not guaranteed, right?

46:53

So I think that subtle shift has been

46:55

really helpful for me in the last few

46:58

years, and I kind of realized that that

47:00

this is something that I do, but I

47:02

thought everyone would naturally do when you block

47:04

off your time, but I realize, no, that's

47:07

not true. Most people, when they allocate time

47:09

for stuff on their calendar, they think that

47:11

they have to get it done during that

47:13

time, when in fact, you don't have to.

47:15

Yeah, I saw a post somewhere, maybe it

47:18

was on credit or something, the other day,

47:20

and it was basically like, what do I

47:22

do if I'm... too depressed to do my

47:24

time blocks or something like that. And I

47:27

think if you are feeling that way about

47:29

the way you block off time, then I

47:31

think that is a sign you, like you

47:33

said, you want to start doing some reframing

47:36

and some investigation into what's going on. Because

47:38

that's not the world you should be living

47:40

in. But I always say to my wife

47:42

is like, you don't have to live like

47:45

this, right? You don't have to be beating

47:47

yourself up. because of X and Y and

47:49

Z, there is another way through there. So

47:51

it's just a matter of finding what it

47:54

is. Yeah, I was talking to a friend

47:56

about this very similar tangential idea, which is

47:58

he was saying how, you know, he's kind

48:00

of going through. rough time right now and

48:03

he was like, I'm just taking a bunch

48:05

of else in my life right now. Like

48:07

things are just not working in different areas.

48:09

And I was like, okay, tell me, tell

48:12

me more about this. And he was like,

48:14

you know, describing the older different situations. And

48:16

I said, okay. But one way to get

48:18

out of this is to focus on what

48:21

you can control and influence, because you can't

48:23

sometimes control the outcome, right? Stuff that has

48:25

happened to you, sometimes you just can't control

48:27

that that happens. But if you focus on

48:30

that, then everything starts to feel like an

48:32

L, like you just lost and. you know,

48:34

you feel like you're a bad person or

48:36

your incompetence or whatnot, right? And it's the

48:39

same thing with allocating stuff in your calendar.

48:41

If you have the intention that every single

48:43

time block is an outcome that's done, man,

48:45

I'm taking a lot of else every single

48:48

day because that's just not the reality. But

48:50

if I'm going in with the intention of,

48:52

hey, I'm going to work on this during

48:54

this time, but at the end of it,

48:56

I'm closer to the outcome. that I want.

48:59

If I'm working between 10 and 11 on

49:01

getting my taxes done, I might not get

49:03

it done during that hour, but I'm definitely

49:05

closer and feel more confident that I will

49:08

get it done. I will make significant progress,

49:10

usually. And that's okay. And then I can

49:12

adjust after that to say, hey, they want

49:14

to work on this remainder part of the

49:17

day or they want to reschedule something for

49:19

later in the week so I can finish

49:21

it up. But at least I'm getting closer

49:23

to... attach an outcome to that. I think

49:26

that's always very dangerous. It's okay to say,

49:28

hey, I'm going to work on three things

49:30

today and these are other things I want

49:32

to get done, right? And that's an outcome-based

49:35

methodology. But then you also have to be

49:37

okay with it that you're not always going

49:39

to hit it, right? We don't have to

49:41

take unnecessary else every day that we just...

49:44

you know, kind of like randomly set that

49:46

we were going to take. So don't be

49:48

that person either. So if you're thinking about

49:50

you using the outcome based strategy of like

49:53

I'm going to do three to five things

49:55

every day, that's why I said earlier, it's

49:57

kind of like playing on Brooks Duncan level,

49:59

that's like really high level. I would say

50:02

if you can actually get a productive day

50:04

going on first and get a string of

50:06

those going on for a while, then maybe

50:08

entertain that idea. But if you can't even

50:11

have a productive day, then don't even entertain

50:13

trying to focus on outcomes. All right, so

50:15

if we have something that we want people

50:17

to focus on after listening to this episode,

50:20

what do you want them to do? Yeah,

50:22

we always want things to be simple and

50:24

actual. So if you made it this far,

50:26

congratulations. My action stuff for you here today

50:29

is think about one thing. that you're going

50:31

to be working on tomorrow and then block

50:33

off 60 minutes, so one hour for it,

50:35

and go in with the attention that you're

50:37

not trying to get it done, you're just

50:40

going in working on that particular task. So

50:42

it's not an outcome, it's a task that

50:44

you're working through. And I want you to

50:46

do this for the next five working days.

50:49

And I think if you do this, you'll

50:51

start to notice that you'll make significant progress,

50:53

life becomes a lot simpler. You're going to

50:55

start taking some W's in your life and

50:58

you'll start to notice that, you know what,

51:00

time blocking is effective if you just follow

51:02

through on those 60 minutes with no outcome

51:04

whatsoever and you're just working through something. So

51:07

do that, focus on one particular task for

51:09

tomorrow for 60 minutes, go in with the

51:11

intention that you're just working on it, and

51:13

you'll be A-OK. Well Brooks, I've really enjoyed

51:16

this episode. Thanks for joining me as always

51:18

and being on the pod. I just want

51:20

to make sure that everyone knows here on

51:22

the pot that we couldn't have done it

51:25

without you, so thank you for listening to

51:27

the show as well. Please subscribe. You haven't

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subscribed yet. Leave us a positive review if

51:31

you enjoy this episode. You can do this

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on Apple podcast or Spotify. And then also...

51:36

Send this episode to someone that you think

51:38

could benefit from this. If they're struggling with

51:40

managing their time and working through different projects

51:43

and goals and they don't have the time

51:45

for it, for some reason, send them this

51:47

episode. I think they're going to enjoy it

51:49

as well. Thanks again for listening and we'll

51:52

see you next time.