2:00

Chew Story. My spouse and I use

2:02

the pull out method for birth control. We

2:04

go to sleep, we pull out our phones and ignore each

2:06

other. Chew

2:09

Story. My birth control has holes in it. Crocs.

2:13

I went to the doctor to get birth control from my

2:15

daughter and he said, she's sexually active and I said, that's

2:21

wrong. That is

2:23

wrong. That's

2:27

why you come here. Go! Go!

2:30

Go! Go!

2:32

Welcome to the

2:35

316th episode of

2:38

The Prop G-Pod. It's

2:42

just the dilemma there

2:44

was not what joke to tell, but

2:46

what joke not to tell. Birth control

2:48

is just a cornucopia. It is a

2:50

fertile field of jokes.

2:53

This has made my day just going over all these

2:55

jokes. By the way, 90% of them are producers

2:58

said no fucking way. In today's episode,

3:00

we speak with Dan Buettner, a National Geographic Fellow,

3:02

a longevity researcher and the best selling author of

3:05

The Blue Zones, Lessons for Living Longer from the

3:07

People Who Live the Longest. We've had a bunch

3:09

of the kind of new age

3:11

cool guys, right? The Cool Club, the

3:13

Atia and Hubermans of the World and

3:15

I wanted to go old school with

3:17

the OG of longevity. And it's

3:20

also a very handsome man at 63. I

3:23

just don't think you can be talking about longevity

3:25

if you're a fucking slob at 40. And

3:29

smoking and drinking. I knew a few of those things.

3:32

Anyways, we discussed with Dan Blue Zones and

3:34

how community, environment and diet play into longevity.

3:36

Okay, what's happening? The dog

3:38

is back in the UK. How do you know?

3:41

I am so pale and unhappy. Oh,

3:43

what do you know? It's the fall,

3:45

which means it's 50 fucking degrees. And

3:48

what else am I doing? I'm going to get out of

3:51

London. I'm going to the south of France soon. Then I'm

3:53

going to go to Madrid for a conference and then I

3:55

head back to the US. Isn't

3:57

it exciting to hear my travel itinerary? What else

3:59

is going on? By the time you hear this, Kamala

4:02

Harris and Donald Trump will have faced each

4:04

other in their first presidential debate. I'll

4:06

be discussing my thoughts and reactions next

4:09

week with Jessica Tarloff on our new

4:11

show. That's right. That's right. That's

4:13

what we need more of. We need more

4:15

dog. That's that's the hole that

4:17

needs to be filled. That's the white space

4:20

for those of you in marketing here,

4:22

right? Daddy needs some more dogs that

4:25

almost nobody right now. I am an

4:28

enormous fan of Jess

4:30

Tarloff. She is the star of the

4:33

show The Five. My favorite way

4:35

to describe The Five is it's four people discussing

4:38

politics and they're conservatives and they're kind

4:40

of like batshit crazy, I would argue.

4:43

And then Jessica just comes with receipts and

4:45

logic and there'll be a pause after she

4:47

says something sane. And it looks

4:50

as if the four of them have just been caught

4:52

masturbating. They literally don't know how to respond or what

4:54

to say. I love that. I love

4:56

that. Anyways, I think she is so talented, so

5:00

charming and the way I met Jess

5:02

was she was my co-panelist on The

5:05

Bill Maher Show or Bill Maher's Real Time and

5:07

I hated Jess. Why did I hate her? Because

5:10

I'm a narcissist and immediately went to

5:12

YouTube to check out the comments and

5:15

every comment was Love

5:17

Jess. Jess is amazing. She literally

5:19

like no one even saw me

5:21

on the panel because

5:23

her insights were so strong.

5:25

Anyways, I got over it and we've gotten to

5:28

know each other. We've become friendly and I said

5:30

let's start a podcast

5:32

that focuses on the middle and tries to be

5:34

a little bit more data-driven, calling it Raging Moderates.

5:36

Is it true to call us moderates? Maybe. I

5:38

mean, I think I don't know. I think I'm

5:41

center left kind of going center right

5:43

because of the head-up-your-ass narrative

5:46

coming out of the far left on Israel, which I've

5:48

had an emotional reaction to but anyways, she's

5:51

definitely center left. I think I like to think

5:53

I'm right down the middle, but people say that

5:55

maybe it's not true. Anyways, love the

5:57

name. Love the name. All right, enough of

5:59

that. Let's- day-to-day

22:00

decisions for a long time that make the

22:02

big difference. And that doesn't happen with the

22:05

conscious mind. It

22:07

feels as if it's a little bit, okay, I have

22:09

my life here in London.

22:12

I try to purposely eat better. I

22:15

have a trainer to

22:17

get in my exercise. But, and

22:19

I don't know if you've heard, but the weather

22:21

in London is somewhere between awful and whatever is

22:23

worse than awful. The overall weather. Yeah,

22:26

there you go. That is kind of

22:28

the wrong way to live

22:30

long. It's about moving to

22:33

Greece where I'm forced to

22:35

walk somewhere. The Mediterranean diet just kind

22:37

of unfolds on me. I'm

22:40

living close to my family, so I have no

22:42

choice but to be highly social. It feels like

22:44

it's more of a, instead

22:47

of the accoutrements, it is your life. Is

22:50

that a decent way to describe it? Yes,

22:53

it's about shifting the

22:56

focus from trying to change your

22:58

behavior, which fails for almost all

23:00

people, almost all the time in

23:02

the long run, to

23:04

shaping your environment. And of course, the easiest

23:07

way to shape your environment for longevity is

23:09

as you point out is move. And

23:12

there are areas in America where life

23:14

expectancy is 25 years less than

23:17

other places. There

23:20

are zip codes in Kentucky where life expectancy

23:22

is 25 years below, say, Boulder,

23:25

Colorado. But what

23:27

we found, and the main focus of my work

23:30

for the past 15 years, has

23:32

been shaping people's

23:35

environment at the population

23:37

level, largely through policy,

23:39

but also through helping restaurants,

23:41

grocery stores, workplaces, schools, and

23:43

even your home are

23:46

designed so that the healthy choice

23:49

is either the easy choice or

23:51

the unavoidable choice. And that's what

23:53

works. It's an interesting way of

23:55

looking at it. You mentioned Kentucky. Let's go to the other

23:57

side. I don't know if you have a term for them,

23:59

gray zones or... or dead zones.

24:02

But what is it about, specifically about

24:04

these places where people live a lot

24:06

less healthy lives and have

24:08

much higher mortality? What are the commonalities of

24:11

the common denominators there? They're

24:13

crisscrossed with highways, unwalkable

24:16

streets. So every time you go to work,

24:18

you have to get in your car, where

24:23

more people have died in car accidents

24:25

in the last 100 years than have died in wars. So

24:28

right there is your first mortality challenge and then

24:30

the fact you're not walking. They tend

24:33

to be junk food forests.

24:35

There's no effort to curb

24:37

accessibility or junk food marketing.

24:39

So junk food and ultra-processed

24:41

food is delicious and it's cheap and

24:43

it's ubiquitous. And that's why we eat

24:46

so much of it. Not

24:48

because we know it's not bad good

24:50

for us. There's typically

24:52

higher crime. People

24:54

are more socially isolated. Think

24:56

of a suburban cul-de-sac as opposed to

25:00

downtown London where you live, where every

25:02

time you step outside your door, there's

25:04

a chance to bump into somebody and

25:06

there's at least a chance that there'll

25:08

be a meaningful social connection for you.

25:11

Often air quality, which is also a function

25:14

of traffic. It's a

25:16

number of smaller things

25:18

that add up to decades

25:21

of life expectancy disparity.

25:24

You talked about purpose. Break down a little bit more,

25:26

a little bit about work. I've

25:30

read somewhere that work used to be

25:32

dirty, dangerous work. Now work for many

25:34

people is purpose and that their mortality

25:36

actually goes up, especially men when they

25:39

stop work and talk. Unpack work and

25:41

longevity. A gallop

25:44

poll of 2 million workers found

25:46

that only about 31%,

25:49

fewer than a third of Americans actually find

25:51

purpose at work. So most of us are

25:53

showing up to work because we need the

25:55

money or the insurance or it's a status

25:58

thing. Dr. Robert But... a

28:00

time sequence of asking people how often

28:02

they laugh, cry, feel stressed, feel worried.

28:05

And that's more of an evaluator for

28:07

how you experience happiness. People

28:10

who have babies, both

28:12

the men and the women, tend to

28:15

experience a dramatic drop in

28:17

affect. In other words, they're

28:19

experience happiness drops. And predictably,

28:21

you know, they're exhausted or

28:24

there's money stress

28:26

in the family or the wife

28:29

doesn't want to have sex because she just had a baby,

28:31

whatever. But life satisfaction

28:33

goes up. So

28:35

you get this sort of up and down of happiness

28:38

and the picture's not clear. In

28:42

places like Denmark, both

28:45

kinds of happiness go up, presumably

28:47

because there's better childcare

28:50

and for the first year of life, both

28:52

the men and women could take up to 12

28:54

months off to take care of that

28:56

infant. As far as

28:59

longevity, we did a

29:01

study in Sardinia. Sardinia

29:04

is home to the longest lived men in the

29:06

world, about 11 times more

29:08

male centenarians there than you'd expect to

29:10

see in a similar population in the

29:12

United States. And the

29:15

guys with the best chance of reaching age

29:17

100 had five

29:19

or more daughters, specifically daughters.

29:22

And we don't know if that's because,

29:24

you know, daughters tend to take

29:26

care of their aging fathers

29:29

in that culture or if it's because

29:31

there's a selection bias that if you

29:33

can survive five adolescent girls making it

29:35

to a hundred, it's no problem. But

29:39

it's very clear- It's gotta be the former, isn't it?

29:41

I would just think- That's what I'm going with. I

29:44

would just think logically, I was

29:47

joking, I wish I'd had, I have two boys. I

29:49

always wish I'd had a daughter because I always thought the daughter would

29:51

take care of me. The daughter would

29:53

call me and say, dad, did you pick up

29:55

your medication? Dad, did you get your colonoscopy that

29:58

they would- that

30:00

they make sure that you're taking care of yourself. And

30:02

to me, that makes just sort of, it's

30:05

so funny that that

30:07

seems so obvious and I never thought that, have

30:09

a bunch of daughters to live longer. Yeah,

30:12

living in extended families seems to

30:14

be a trend in

30:17

all blue zones. And I

30:19

know people think the idea of their parents

30:21

living with them might be horrible, but often

30:24

there's not a choice in blue

30:26

zones, but you see very tangible

30:28

benefits. Something called the grandmother effect

30:31

has shown, not only in several

30:33

cultures, but actual several mammal

30:36

species that those

30:38

that keep a parent near the

30:40

family, the children in those families

30:42

have lower rates of mortality and

30:45

lower rates of disease. And

30:48

not only that, if your aging

30:50

mom's living with you, she's not in a

30:52

retirement home. Again, retirement home,

30:55

instant lowering of life expectancy. So

30:58

there's sort of a beautiful symbiosis that

31:01

you see in families. So

31:04

having children, raising

31:06

them well, I would argue not

31:08

coddling them. You don't see coddled

31:10

children in the blue zones. Children

31:12

are expected to be contributing members

31:14

of the family. They're all sometimes

31:16

in the field, they're gold herders

31:18

by the age of eight or

31:20

12, between eight

31:22

and 12, they're helping

31:24

with kitchen chores. They're not just being

31:27

driven to dance lessons and play dates

31:30

like we typically see. There

31:32

is a chance that they could get

31:34

hurt. They have to take

31:36

on some responsibility

31:38

and the attendant risk with

31:41

that at a very early age, as opposed

31:43

to waiting to age 25 to

31:46

have to take your first risk in life. Yeah,

31:49

I mean, so much of this is encouraging and discouraging.

31:51

Do you have kids, Dan? I have three.

31:55

And how do you, so

31:57

my kids basically get up, I

32:00

hate to admit this, it's our fault. My kids don't even

32:02

make their beds. The most

32:04

active thing they do is they do

32:06

take the tube, they do play sports

32:08

at school, but

32:11

they are coddled. I mean, they really

32:13

are. And so what is your approach

32:15

after doing all of this research?

32:17

What is your approach to raising your children

32:19

that might be a little different than how

32:21

other people raise their kids? Well,

32:24

at a certain point in my life, I

32:26

told them I needed them at a very early

32:28

age. And I gave

32:30

them chores, I didn't need them. I

32:32

needed them psychologically at that point. But

32:34

I also, you know, logistically

32:36

needed help. And, you know, I

32:39

never made money till I was 40. And

32:41

I made a lot of money. But in

32:44

a way, it was a gift to live in a

32:46

household where, you know, we had

32:48

to make our own fun and I

32:50

needed them to help me with the laundry, et cetera, and

32:54

with the yard. And I think

32:56

at the end of the day, that was good. It

32:59

was a gift for them. And

33:01

why is that? I'm going to probe here. Are you a

33:03

single father? Yes. So

33:05

during that time, you know, I needed them. I

33:08

enjoyed having them around me. But

33:10

they all worked, they were supposed

33:13

to do. I also, you know,

33:15

we didn't go to Disney World.

33:17

We would go to the Yucatan

33:19

Peninsula and crawl through batshit caves

33:22

when they were eight, nine, 10 years old.

33:24

And we would live

33:26

in villages with Yucatec Maya and

33:29

childhood with me wasn't safe

33:32

in the immediate sense of the word, but

33:35

I believe it gave them enormous resilience

33:37

for later in life. They're three very

33:39

successful adults right now. We'll

33:42

be right back. Support

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37:04

I like to think I can point, I

37:06

can identify people who are good CEOs. I've

37:08

spent so much time with good and bad

37:10

CEOs that when I interview a CEO

37:12

for a position as a director on

37:14

a board, I feel like I'm a pretty good

37:17

study. I'm not good at assessing other employees. I

37:19

get fooled all the time, but I think I

37:22

can kind of sum up someone's

37:24

CEO readiness or not.

37:27

What are the things, A, do you believe you

37:29

can do that? And B, what are sort of

37:31

the obvious tells when you spend, say, an hour

37:34

with somebody? Well, just to

37:36

level set, the chances of reaching

37:38

100 in America are

37:41

less than one in a thousand. So

37:44

the capacity of the human machine, so

37:47

the average person our age is,

37:50

for men, it's probably 93, maybe 94. And

37:54

for women, it might be 96. So making it to

37:56

100 is exponentially

37:58

more difficult than hitting measurable,

46:00

extraordinary longevity in five disparate

46:03

places on the globe. And

46:05

for me, that's a persuasive argument of what to

46:07

do to live to 100. So

46:11

let's talk a little bit about, so let's talk about

46:13

the US. If the Biden administration,

46:15

and maybe they have, said to you, Dan, what

46:18

series of, what two

46:20

or three policies could we implement to dramatically

46:23

raise not only the lifespan but the health

46:26

span, the quality of life of Americans? What

46:28

would those two or three policies be? Well,

46:30

I'm gonna tell you, they're not gonna be popular. First

46:33

of all, universal healthcare. Every

46:36

Blue Zone's, the access

46:39

to healthcare is

46:42

close to free. Not only that,

46:44

there's a much better

46:46

emphasis on public health. So

46:49

rather than trying to pay for

46:52

cleaning up the disease, they're investing

46:54

the disease to keep the disease

46:56

from happening in the first place.

46:59

There's just no question that universal

47:01

healthcare, 11% of Americans don't even have health

47:04

insurance in this country. Number

47:07

two, gasoline should be priced at

47:09

a price very similar

47:14

to what you pay for in Europe, which

47:16

is about twice or three times even

47:18

you see in some places. Why? Because

47:21

what will happen if you raise

47:23

gas, people will figure out how

47:25

to take public transportation, people

47:28

who take public transportation have about 20% lower mortality

47:31

than people who drive back to work.

47:35

So it gets them out from behind their wheels, under

47:38

their feet. They'll move closer to their schools

47:40

and their jobs. There'll

47:42

be more population concentration,

47:45

so people will be more social.

47:48

And then the last thing is the Farm

47:50

Bill. The Farm Bill

47:52

right now is set up to

47:54

subsidize soybeans, corn, sugar

47:57

beets, and wheat. These

47:59

are all the the inputs of

48:01

all the junk food we eat

48:03

the Doritos you

48:06

know Feed

48:08

lot animals the crappy beef and

48:10

pork if

48:12

if we pulled those subsidies out and

48:15

instead of making it easy and

48:18

cheap to raise these junk food

48:20

inputs and instead shifted it to

48:22

Beans and grains and greens and

48:25

organic vegetables The price of

48:27

those would come down and the

48:29

consumption would go up places like Singapore.

48:31

They see very clearly and gas

48:34

is 11 bucks a gallon and Your

48:37

car is going to be taxed 300% Meanwhile,

48:39

there's a great subway system where it's

48:42

easy to get any place

48:44

point a to point B in a

48:46

safe quick air-conditioned way But

48:48

you got to walk back and forth to the to the

48:50

subway and people are taking 10,000 steps

48:52

a day without even thinking about it. They

48:55

subsidize brown rice and they're gonna

48:57

tax sugar They already have a

48:59

sugar taxes poor and

49:01

not coincidentally they tax

49:03

the tobacco Singapore

49:06

you have a country where

49:08

the health adjusted life expectancy

49:11

Which is the long estimate of

49:13

how long people are gonna live?

49:17

minus the years lost to Chronic

49:20

disease and the years of healthy life

49:22

lost to disability That's

49:24

highest 50 live above 15

49:26

more good years than Americans do heterogeneous

49:30

society just because they can

49:32

see clearly and make their

49:34

policies Set policies to favor

49:36

the human being rather than to just

49:38

favor business so if you

49:41

general reductive advice Two

49:44

or three things get started are

49:46

like table stakes or most immediate

49:48

incremental benefit Talk about a 60

49:51

year old talk about a 25 year old.

49:53

What are those two or three things like? Okay, I

49:55

got five minutes with the leading

49:58

authority on longevity If

58:00

I had a blue zone star, I'd lick it and put

58:03

it on your forehead because I think

58:05

I'm gonna see you when you're a hundred. I

58:07

hope so, brother. I hope so. ["Auld

58:14

Lang Syne"] Audible

58:21

of happiness. I had this vision for what

58:23

my relationship with my boys would be like.

58:26

I thought they would be fascinated by me. And when

58:28

they got home from camp, they'd want

58:30

to sit down and tell me everything about what

58:32

happened and talk about, the

58:35

hikes that went on. And as

58:37

is often the case, my 14 year old came home,

58:39

hadn't seen him in two or three weeks and

58:42

kind of, he was tired, hungry, and just sort of, I said

58:44

hi, didn't even say hi back, kind of slammed the door and

58:46

went in his room. That is very

58:48

upsetting for me. And I want to get

58:50

angry at him. That is unacceptable behavior, sure.

58:54

But more than anything, it doesn't foot

58:56

to what I thought our relationship was

58:58

gonna be and I feel insulted and

59:00

hurt. And what I've come

59:02

to realize as a dad, as a man,

59:05

is that this basic notion of

59:07

masculinity and manhood is that you

59:09

add surplus value. And

59:12

one means of surplus value is that

59:14

dad just takes it. I'm not saying

59:17

you tolerate or accept inappropriate behavior. My

59:19

kids actually have very good manners. But

59:22

you realize this dad, dad takes

59:24

some body blows. And it's

59:26

not about me. It's not my kids aren't

59:28

here to serve or fill

59:31

or ensure that our relationship is what I

59:33

imagined so I can feel like a Hallmark

59:35

commercial and have these dad moments. I get

59:38

a lot of those, but

59:40

that's not my job and it's not their

59:42

job and it's an unreasonable expectation.

59:45

My job is to protect and provide and

59:47

be a role model, to be

59:50

good to their mother and to ensure

59:52

that they have, whatever I

59:54

can provide such that they have develop

59:57

good character, are healthy and have a

59:59

shot at being. productive, loving citizens

1:00:02

as they get older. But

1:00:04

dad takes some blows. And if you're

1:00:06

expecting that your relationship with your child

1:00:08

is going to be two-way, it

1:00:10

is not. It is not going to

1:00:12

be, I mean, there'll be moments where you'll get more

1:00:15

joy than you could have ever imagined. And we always

1:00:17

talk about those moments, but on the whole, on

1:00:19

the whole, it is a,

1:00:21

what I'll call diminished or a

1:00:25

debtor relationship. And that is you are going to

1:00:27

give a lot more. You are

1:00:29

going to be much more expressive, much more emotional, much

1:00:31

more supportive, much kinder to them than they are going

1:00:33

to be to you. And that is

1:00:35

just part of it. That's what it means to be a parent. I

1:00:37

also think that's what it means to be a dad. This

1:00:42

episode was produced by Caroline Shagren. Jennifer

1:00:44

Sanchez is our associate producer and Drew

1:00:47

Burrows is our technical director. Thank

1:00:49

you for listening to the Prodigy Pod

1:00:51

from the Vox Media Podcast Network. We

1:00:53

will catch you on Saturday for No

1:00:56

Mercy No Malice, as read by George

1:00:58

Hahn. And please follow our Prodigy Markets

1:01:00

Pod, wherever you get your pods for

1:01:02

new episodes every Monday and Thursday. Oh

1:01:12

my God, let's be honest. Daddy's

1:01:14

a genius. Daddy's a genius.

1:01:16

That was just so elegant, so

1:01:18

puncturing, so insightful, so daddy.

1:01:21

Is this thing still on? I

1:01:25

thought so. Hey, I'm Peter Kafka. I am a journalist

1:01:27

who covers tech and

1:01:29

media and the way those two things interact. And

1:01:31

for years, I had a podcast called Recode Media

1:01:33

where I covered all the ways the internet and tech were

1:01:36

radically transforming media and how new ideas and

1:01:38

new companies and new

1:01:40

creators were emerging. That meant I talked to people

1:01:43

like Adam Oseri, he's the CEO of Instagram. The,

1:01:46

the, the, the, the, the, the, the

1:01:52

biggest mistake I think we made as a company

1:01:54

was a long time ago, not fully

1:01:57

embracing our responsibility early enough. to try

1:01:59

to understand negative outcomes. And I talked

1:02:01

to compelling creative talents like Steven Soderbergh

1:02:03

and Bo Burnham. The danger is not

1:02:05

that we're gonna treat the internet like

1:02:07

it's real, the danger is that we're

1:02:10

treating the real world like it's the

1:02:12

internet. I talked to a ton of

1:02:14

journalists and experts who could help put

1:02:16

everything in context. So

1:02:19

we took a break and now

1:02:21

we're back with Channels. Channels

1:02:23

is a show about the stuff I wanna know more

1:02:25

about and I think you do too. Who's

1:02:28

making that new movie or startup or

1:02:30

streaming service? What's gonna make that

1:02:32

work or not work? Who's gonna make

1:02:34

money from all this? And how does all this

1:02:36

change the stuff we read and watch and listen

1:02:39

to? Here's another way to think about it. We

1:02:42

all spend our lives looking at screens and

1:02:44

this podcast is about how the stuff on

1:02:46

your screens got there and what's coming next.

1:02:49

Follow Channels, Peter Kafka, wherever you

1:02:51

listen and check out my first

1:02:53

episode on September 11th. It's with

1:02:55

David Remnick, the New Yorkers legendary

1:02:57

editor in chief. See you soon.