0:00

Hey everyone it's Rob B here with

0:02

Rob D and you are listening to

0:04

the Property podcast and this week we

0:06

are talking about exit strategies, the end

0:08

game. How do you finish up

0:10

in property? What is the most efficient

0:13

way of doing it? How will tax impact

0:15

you? We've got that all covered

0:17

with some basic strategies but also

0:19

some really advanced stuff as well.

0:27

Welcome to the Property Podcast. In case

0:29

you don't know, we run a business that

0:31

buys more than 150 million pounds worth of

0:34

property every year for our clients. You can

0:36

find out about that at propertyhub.net/invest. And although

0:38

we're still building, we're still growing, a lot

0:40

of people are thinking, okay, this is still well and

0:42

good, but what am I building towards? What am I

0:44

going to do at the end? What am I going

0:46

to do with all these mortgages? We're going to

0:49

talk about which ones we plan to choose we

0:51

plan to choose. So stick around. So stick around.

0:53

We're bringing a bit of international flavor to our

0:55

news story of the week and I could guess

0:58

why Rob and you can explain in a moment

1:00

but this week's news story is about the Spanish

1:02

property market and it's in the FT. Rob. What

1:04

inspired you to bring this story to us?

1:06

Well, it's called my eye because I'm in

1:09

Spain right now. I'm recording from Barcelona, which

1:11

is lovely, but not so lovely if you

1:13

are a property owner, because according to this

1:15

story in the FT, which you will link

1:17

to in the show notes, there's a major

1:19

problem with crossing and illegal occupation, not just

1:21

in Barcelona, but also Madrid, Malaga and many

1:24

other big cities. And this is because there's

1:26

a property shortage in Spain as there is

1:28

in the UK, but there are also very

1:30

weak enforcement powers. So if you do have

1:32

someone who's living in your property illegally, if

1:34

they're broken in or something else, you can't get

1:36

them out, you can't turn the utilities off. There's

1:38

really not a great deal you can do and

1:40

surprise surprise when you make it easy to do

1:42

something illegal and there are no consequences for it

1:45

people tend to do more of it. But Rob

1:47

what I thought was really interesting is that I

1:49

was on idealista which is the Spanish equivalent of

1:51

right move. Of course I'm sure you do this

1:53

I hope you do this I hope you do

1:55

this when you're on holiday somewhere you get interested

1:57

about local property prices and you go on and

1:59

you take a little look. So that's what I

2:01

was doing and I noticed that it's like right

2:03

right move you've like right move you've. the filters,

2:05

you can filter by price, by type of home,

2:07

by number of bedrooms and all that kind of

2:09

thing, but there is a special filter for illegally

2:11

occupied, so you can specifically exclude or include properties

2:13

that are illegally occupied. Is that, man, by the

2:15

time you've got a filter on right move for

2:18

this, you know you've got problems. Wow, that's wild

2:20

and yes Rob, you'll be pleased to hear that.

2:22

mentally at least I've purchased property all around the

2:24

world I've visited different places it's a very fun

2:26

day to play I can't help myself I just

2:28

want to know what things cost in certain areas

2:30

and it not just internationally in the UK

2:32

as well for visit a nice area I'm

2:34

like oh this would be a lovely place

2:37

to own another property but all in my

2:39

head of course so that does make our

2:41

UK system sound a bit better but you

2:43

can absolutely play our system and in time

2:45

I don't know how long it's going to

2:47

take because it's still got stuff to sort

2:50

and it's been going a long time. I'll

2:52

bring it to you an episode on the

2:54

podcast which is going to leave a lot

2:56

of you disturbed, shaken by how bad the

2:58

system can be. And unfortunately for me that's

3:01

based on personal experience so I will bring

3:03

that to all our podcasters in the near

3:05

future. but yes it's not as bad as

3:07

Spain I'm pleased to say but you can

3:09

really manipulate the UK system as well if

3:12

you know what you're doing so that is

3:14

an episode in waiting. Now we've been podcasting

3:16

for a very long time and

3:18

we've recorded a lot of episodes

3:20

over the many years we've been

3:22

doing a podcast but only a

3:24

very small number of them have related

3:27

to finishing up in property yet

3:29

so many of you ask us well how

3:31

does this all play out? How does it

3:33

end? What is the end game for property?

3:35

Well, in this episode, we've got you

3:37

covered. We're not just going to give

3:39

you one path, but there's multiple different

3:41

options, which is great. It's nice to

3:44

have those options. And there's no pressure.

3:46

You don't have to pick today, but

3:48

it's good to have in mind how

3:50

it could look, because that might make

3:52

a difference to what decisions you make

3:54

today, when you've got an idea of how

3:57

you're going to exit in the exit in

3:59

the future. love numbers. Let's take people

4:01

through a overall scenario of how their

4:03

portfolio could look in the future and

4:05

for some people it will be more

4:07

than this and some people will be

4:10

less but the nice simple numbers we

4:12

can work with which then allows us

4:14

to get into the options. Yeah so

4:16

let's just say that you're hitting retirement

4:18

age whatever that means for you you're

4:20

hitting that now and you've got a

4:22

three million pound portfolio which has one

4:24

million pounds worth of debt. And because

4:27

this is a portfolio that you built

4:29

up over time, lucky you, the asset

4:31

value, the value of that portfolio, has

4:33

roughly doubled since you bought it, which

4:35

means of course that the leverage has

4:37

roughly halved. So you've only got about

4:39

a 33% loan to value now, but

4:42

it was of course double that when

4:44

you bought. The 3 million pound portfolio,

4:46

1 million pounds worth of debt, and

4:48

just for simplicity, let's imagine to keep

4:50

it neat. That's made up of 10

4:52

properties, and each is worth 300 thousand

4:54

pounds. Okay, so what's that portfolio doing

4:57

for you today before we get into

4:59

what you can do with it? Well,

5:01

let's say that Pretax is generating £210,000

5:03

in rental income. I think that's underdoing

5:05

it for various reasons, but let's not

5:07

worry about that because as we'll see,

5:09

the amount of rental income doesn't affect

5:12

any of the calculations. So let's just

5:14

say £210,000 worth of rental income. Off

5:16

that, you'll take 50,000 pounds worth of

5:18

mortgage costs, so that's assuming that you're

5:20

paying 5% interest. We'll take off 42,000

5:22

pounds for other costs, that's 20% of

5:24

the rent, and that leaves you with

5:26

118,000 pounds in profit. The numbers on

5:29

a podcast are tricky, so we'll pop

5:31

these in the show notes so you

5:33

can go and look at them as

5:35

we go along in case that makes

5:37

things easier for you. But if you're

5:39

driving right now or something like that,

5:41

then don't look at the show notes,

5:44

just remember that you've got 10 properties,

5:46

300,000 pounds each, 1 million pounds worth

5:48

of debt, and at the rental worth

5:50

of debt. So like I said, Rob,

5:52

some people will be way beyond that.

5:54

For some people, that might sound really

5:56

distant, but it doesn't need to. Because

5:59

over time, you can absolutely get there.

6:01

So let's look at the options. So

6:03

we've got some really in. in spicy

6:05

options to bring you shortly and some

6:07

advanced options as well. But option one

6:09

is probably the most obvious one. Just

6:11

keep the properties. You're getting 118,000 pounds

6:14

of profit from that portfolio. For a

6:16

lot of people, that'll be more than

6:18

enough. That's a good number. And remember,

6:20

that number will increase over time. Rents

6:22

tend to match inflation over the long

6:24

term. So at some points, rental outperform

6:26

inflation, like it is right now. And

6:28

sometimes, rental underperform against inflation. But you

6:31

know, over the long term, because of

6:33

the data that we have, that rents

6:35

match inflation. So you've sort of got

6:37

an index-linked income forever. And in percentage

6:39

terms, the mortgages keep drifting down. Because

6:41

that one million pound worth of debt

6:43

is fixed because it's interest only, as

6:46

your portfolio grows in value, the loan-to-value

6:48

rate keeps reducing. So your loan-to-value keeps

6:50

reducing, you've got income that will match

6:52

inflation over the long term. That's something

6:54

that may have come to mind for

6:56

you is, well, what you do about

6:58

the mortgages as you retire. Because as

7:01

you may expect, as you get older,

7:03

your mortgage options will reduce. Not be

7:05

eliminated, you'll be surprised how flexible the

7:07

market is, but you will have less

7:09

options. But if you want to open

7:11

those options up again, if you're buying

7:13

within a company, a limited company, you

7:16

could restructure that company to bring in

7:18

children for longer term mortgages, if that's

7:20

something you need to do. But remember,

7:22

you still have options for mortgages well

7:24

into your 80s, so it's not a

7:26

necessity, it's just another option that you

7:28

have. So that's option one, Rob. probably

7:30

the most obvious, the simplest to do,

7:33

but we have many other options. We

7:35

do, so let's go from there to

7:37

the polar opposite. Let's say that you've

7:39

got to this position, property's done well

7:41

for you, but it's not for you

7:43

anymore. You just don't want to hassle

7:45

as you're going off into retirement. You

7:48

want to almost literally sail off into

7:50

the sunset. You want to be on

7:52

deck, on your cruise, sunning yourself, and

7:54

not worrying about getting any phone calls.

7:56

from your letting agent? Do you just

7:58

want shot of them all? So what

8:00

would that look like if you sold

8:03

all your properties at that point? But

8:05

because they're worth 3 million and there's

8:07

1 million of debt then of course

8:09

if you sold them all then you'd

8:11

end up with 2 million pounds. That

8:13

2 million will not be yours though you're

8:15

going to have to pay capital gains tax.

8:17

So if we assume that the gain you've

8:19

made on that portfolio is 1.6 million and

8:21

we assume that capital gains tax at whatever

8:23

point we're doing this is the same as

8:25

it is today then that would be tax

8:27

of three hundred and eighty four thousand pounds

8:29

round up a bit to take count of

8:31

selling costs and you'll end up with one

8:34

point six million pounds cash in the bank

8:36

so you did have a portfolio of ten

8:38

properties bringing you in under eighteen thousand pounds

8:40

you've now got 1.6 million pounds in the

8:42

bank instead. So what are you going to

8:44

do then? Well you're going to go

8:46

and invest it in something else. And

8:48

let's just assume that again, because no

8:50

hassle is your goal here, the whole

8:52

point of this was to make life

8:54

easier, you're just going to invest in

8:56

something super ultra-safe. Something that returns, say

8:58

3% a year, that would be an

9:00

annual income of 50,000 pounds. So you've

9:03

taken a big pay cut, your income. is

9:05

more than half but all your debt is

9:07

gone all your worry and your hassle is

9:09

gone depending on your lifestyle you

9:12

could just live off that income but

9:14

also of course you can gradually

9:16

run down the capital if you

9:18

want to as well so those are the

9:20

two extreme options Rob but there is

9:22

something in the middle as well there

9:24

is and there's some advanced stuff to

9:26

come but before we get to that

9:29

the third option is paying off the

9:31

debt so in this scenario you would

9:33

sell four properties and remember they're

9:35

all equal value so it's nice

9:38

and easy so that brings in

9:40

1.2 million but we will have

9:42

capital gains tax so that would

9:44

be 153,000 pounds so you wipe

9:47

out that million pounds worth of

9:49

debt so now in this scenario your

9:51

portfolio is worth 1.8 million

9:54

you have an income of 126,000

9:56

like before we've put some general

9:58

costs in there so 25,000 pounds

10:00

for things like maintenance, which is actually

10:03

quite conservative based on the size of

10:05

your portfolio now, but that would leave

10:07

you still with 101,000 pounds worth of

10:09

profit before tax. So you've gone down

10:11

from 118 to 101, but you've got

10:13

an easier life because you've got less

10:16

properties in your portfolio. You only got

10:18

six to manage now instead of the

10:20

10. So it's still a reasonable number,

10:22

but less to deal with, less mortgage

10:24

applications to deal with as well, which

10:26

for me, seems to be one of

10:28

the biggest bug bears, all that paperwork.

10:31

So that's a nice, simple option. Simplifies

10:33

the portfolio, simplifies the admin, yes, it

10:35

reduced your profit by a bit, but

10:37

life's a bit easier. Maybe you're prepared

10:39

to take that income sacrifice just to

10:41

simplify things. And that's why paying off

10:44

the debt. will appeal to a lot

10:46

of people and a lot of people

10:48

are speaking to plan to do this

10:50

exact strategy. So a blend of the

10:52

two I think will be appealing for

10:54

a lot of people. So those are

10:57

your three basic options. You keep everything,

10:59

you sell everything or you sell just

11:01

enough to keep going debt-free. But there

11:03

are some more advanced options and things

11:05

that you can be thinking about as

11:07

well. The first of these options I

11:10

would call optimising. So you might be

11:12

happy with the overall size of your

11:14

portfolio, might be happy with the income

11:16

is bringing in, might even be happy

11:18

keeping the debt, but you think that

11:20

your portfolio could be optimised because the

11:22

portfolio that you used to get you

11:25

there isn't necessarily the portfolio that you

11:27

want to keep on holding for the

11:29

next 20 years or more hopefully of

11:31

your retirement. So you might keep the

11:33

portfolio value as it is, but change

11:35

some of the properties. Use it as

11:38

an opportunity to move into properties that

11:40

you believe are going to be easier

11:42

to maintain. You could use it as

11:44

an opportunity to switch to properties that

11:46

are geared more towards income. Now that's

11:48

perhaps more important to you, whereas previously

11:51

growth with your main motivator. You can

11:53

even take them micro-optimisations and rebalance equity

11:55

between properties. You can end up with

11:57

some that have a higher loan to

11:59

value and others that you hold outright.

12:01

Maybe that's with a view of a

12:03

view to gifting in the future. advanced

12:06

option which is basically a spin-off of

12:08

keep them all. It's keep the portfolio

12:10

size but change the constituents. And Rob

12:12

there's another advanced option as well which

12:14

is one that you've been speaking about

12:16

for many years ever since we started

12:19

this podcast in fact and all the

12:21

options we covered so far are probably

12:23

pretty obvious if you could come up

12:25

with them off the top of your

12:27

head. This next one definitely falls under

12:29

more advanced because hey it's what the

12:32

billionaires do. It is so why not

12:34

act like a billionaire and use this

12:36

strategy. Long time listeners may remember this

12:38

strategy, it's called the ultimate property strategy.

12:40

What you would do here, like Rob

12:42

said, this is what the rich do,

12:45

is live off the debt. So, you've

12:47

got that portfolio worth 3 million pounds,

12:49

and you've got the 1 million pounds

12:51

worth of debt already. What you could

12:53

do is refinance out 2.5% worth that

12:55

portfolio each year, so that would be

12:57

75 thousand pounds. With the expectation that

13:00

your property will grow more in value

13:02

than that amount, because over the long

13:04

term it absolutely has, and you could

13:06

quite reasonably expect over the long term

13:08

for it to grow by at least

13:10

5% a year, so you've always got

13:13

more equity building and you're taking out.

13:15

But the beautiful thing about doing it

13:17

this way is that 75,000 pounds is

13:19

tax-free. Why is it tax-free? Well, because

13:21

it's a debt. you are living off

13:23

a debt. And that debt is being

13:26

serviced by rent. Your rental income will

13:28

also be going up as well. And

13:30

you'll still have a rental income surplus

13:32

on top of that money as well.

13:34

It actually starts to look too good

13:36

to be true in many aspects when

13:38

you start working through other numbers. So

13:41

this strategy is very effective. Admittedly, a

13:43

little hard to get your head round

13:45

at the beginning, but this arguably, while

13:47

one of the more complex strategies, is

13:49

one of the most effective strategies. So

13:51

a quick reminder, you've got that 3

13:54

million pound portfolio, you've got 1 million

13:56

pounds worth of debt, you take 2.5%

13:58

out, which is 75%. thousand pounds. When

14:00

I say take out that equity, that's

14:02

a re-mortage, you live off that money

14:04

with the expectation that your

14:07

portfolio is growing by at least 5% a

14:09

year, so that's going to be a

14:11

hundred and fifty thousand pounds increase,

14:13

and your rent will pay for that new

14:15

debt you've taken out. Now where people

14:17

may be listening to this going, oh

14:19

this doesn't work because of that reason

14:21

or this reason, the biggest complaint with

14:23

this one is, well you've got to

14:26

do a re-mortage every year, and that's

14:28

fair. but there are things they draw

14:30

down facilities so you could get a

14:32

draw down mortgage against this portfolio potentially

14:34

of course the mortgage market is always

14:36

moving where you could have access to

14:38

say up to a million pounds worth of debt

14:40

but you only pay for the debt

14:43

that you use this is more common

14:45

on residential property admittedly but there are

14:47

new products coming to the market all the

14:49

time if you did that you've got the

14:51

access to the million of debt but you

14:53

only pay for what you use then that's

14:55

75 thousand pounds is a lot easier, it's

14:57

like just drawing down from a bank. Now,

14:59

speak to a mortgage advisor if you

15:01

are in this position, if you are

15:03

near the end game of your portfolio

15:06

and this appeals to you, maybe go back,

15:08

listen to what I've said again just so

15:10

it really sinks in and then speak

15:12

to your mortgage broker to see what

15:14

options you have available to you.

15:17

Draw 150,000 down, use 75 year,

15:19

tax free again, remember that's the big

15:21

win here, and just do it every

15:23

couple of years. This is advanced stuff.

15:25

But it's worth getting your head

15:27

around because it's very attractive

15:30

to property investors and certainly

15:32

from a tax perspective as well.

15:34

And remember while 75,000 pounds sounds

15:36

less than some of the other

15:38

scenarios we've talked about, that's the

15:41

equivalent under our current tax regime

15:43

of earning around 114,000 pounds. So

15:45

the gross income equivalent

15:47

is 114 which is very similar to

15:50

the numbers we've talked about. So 75K

15:52

after tax or tax free is very

15:54

very attractive. The nice one about that one

15:56

is it's the logical conclusion of something that

15:59

property is so So get it towards in

16:01

the first place and something we talk

16:03

about all the time, which is using debt

16:05

as a tool. So you use debt

16:07

as a tool to grow your wealth while

16:09

you're accumulating, but then you're using debt

16:11

as a tool for income without tax, which

16:13

is really nice. And of course, this

16:15

only works if you've got loan to value

16:17

headroom in your portfolio. But you can

16:19

look at this as delayed gratification. So you

16:21

resist refinancing as you go along to

16:23

grow your portfolio faster. You let the loan

16:25

to value drift down, which means you

16:27

can then draw on it for income later

16:29

on. I suppose one downside though, if

16:31

you're thinking about passing assets on, is that

16:33

you're effectively shrinking the value of your

16:35

assets because you're increasing the debt against the

16:37

equity. And the final advanced option is

16:39

the flip of that really. So if you're

16:41

comfortable, you've got other investments and you're

16:43

in a very settled place, then maybe inheritance

16:45

tax becomes a problem. I would always

16:47

argue that inheritance tax is someone else's problem

16:50

because it's never going to be yours

16:52

by definition. But nevertheless, a lot of people

16:54

get older and think, hang on, I

16:56

bet it when I die, my kids are

16:58

going to get a whacking great tax

17:00

bill. And I'm not happy about that because

17:02

I've already paid so much tax on

17:04

all of this. So another advanced option is

17:06

to start the process of passing the

17:08

portfolio on early because the earlier you do

17:10

it, the more options you have to

17:12

mitigate that inheritance tax. So if you have

17:14

properties that you own individually rather than

17:16

the company, then you can start gifting those

17:18

properties early. And that could be a

17:20

reason, as I mentioned earlier, for reallocating any

17:22

mortgages you still have. So you've got

17:24

some that you own outright. If you get

17:26

those out of your ownership early enough,

17:28

then that transfer could end up being tax

17:30

-free. If you own the properties in a

17:32

company, then there are different ways of

17:34

achieving the same thing. You can start restructuring

17:36

the company, you can start gifting shares.

17:38

There's all manner of things you can do.

17:40

If passing assets on is a big

17:42

part of your driving reason to invest in

17:44

property in the first place, then company

17:46

ownership can be very attractive because it gives

17:48

you more flexibility. You can, to some

17:50

degree, split out the income from the growth.

17:53

And of course, you can pass on

17:55

more flexibly because you're not having to do

17:57

things in property -sized lumps. You can settle

17:59

individual shares. And if that is something

18:01

that you think you're going to want to

18:03

do in the future, then it's well

18:05

worth talking about. to your tax advisor about that early, maybe even at

18:07

the point that you're setting up the company, because you can set up the share

18:09

classes and so forth to give you the flexibility that you think

18:11

you're going to want in the end.

18:13

So the great news is you've got

18:15

options. It's not just one option as

18:17

well. And it's also worth noting that

18:19

it's not one option suit everybody. It

18:21

will depend on what you want in

18:23

the future, what's important to you. We'll

18:25

dictate the exit strategy you pick. So

18:28

what would we do. As it stands today,

18:30

and the great thing is you

18:32

can absolutely change your mind, but

18:34

as it stands today, what option would

18:36

you pick? What would you do? I think if I

18:38

had to choose one of the basic three, then the

18:40

way I feel now is I'd just keep

18:42

going. I'd go for option one, I'd

18:45

keep them all. I don't think I'd feel

18:47

the need to sell them. I'd have got

18:49

that far, I've got systems in place for

18:51

managing them, so all good. I can see

18:54

the attraction in paying off the debt, but

18:56

after a lifetime of using debt as a

18:58

tool, clearly it's not something I'd be phased

19:00

by, or losing sleep over, so... I just

19:03

want to keep that power. So I think

19:05

I would default towards option one, but start

19:07

giving some thought towards restructuring to gradually pass

19:09

on. I think knowing what to do about

19:12

that is the hardest part for me at

19:14

the moment, because my kids are very young.

19:16

I don't want to turn out how involved

19:18

they're going to want to be. I feel

19:20

like I'm pretty generous with what I'm giving

19:22

them now in terms of their upbringing. I

19:24

don't know if I'm going to want them

19:27

to hear it that much more. the unknown.

19:29

But I think I'd say if I had

19:31

to answer right now, and of course things

19:33

are likely to change, I default towards just

19:35

keeping them and then gradually starting to think

19:37

about passing on. What about you? You

19:39

spoke very passionately about the ultimate property

19:42

strategies. I've got a feeling that might

19:44

be part of your plans. It would

19:46

be part, but what I think I

19:48

would do, Rob, is I pick a

19:50

mix between the strategies. So if

19:52

I look at this example portfolio

19:54

portfolio and, how would I approach this

19:56

scenario? Well for me I wouldn't want to

19:59

own 10 properties. in retirement. So I'd look

20:01

at a rebalancing. We talked about the

20:03

monopoly strategy a few times with a

20:05

podcast recently. I'd probably play a bit

20:07

of monopoly here and trade down some

20:09

of those smaller houses and consolidate the

20:11

portfolio by selling some and buying more

20:13

expensive ones. Bit by bit, my aim

20:15

would be to try and have properties

20:17

to manage. Because 10 properties, 10 mortgage

20:19

applications, all the rest of it just

20:21

seems like hard work. and I'm going

20:23

to assume in retirement I don't want

20:25

hard work. So I'm going to reduce

20:27

the portfolio in terms of unit numbers.

20:29

Now once I've done that what I'll

20:31

probably do is mix. I would do

20:33

what you've said Rob, I would take

20:35

the rental income from the property but

20:38

at opportune moments use some debt. So

20:40

when I come to retirement age and

20:42

I've got this portfolio as the example

20:44

to access in low interest environments I

20:46

would be looking to use as much

20:48

debt as possible. and taking that debt

20:50

out over the longest time period is

20:52

possible. So what do I mean by

20:54

that? Let's just say when I come

20:56

to retire, we're in a low interest

20:58

rate environment again, similar to what we've

21:00

had before, and I can borrow a

21:02

two, two and a half percent, well

21:04

then if I could get a ten

21:06

year mortgage on those sort of rates,

21:08

I would be looking to leverage quite

21:10

a bit actually. I'd be trying to

21:12

take out as much as possible. But

21:14

if interest rates were, say, when I

21:16

come to retire, I probably wouldn't do

21:18

it. So I would judge it on

21:20

the interest rate environment I find myself

21:22

in when I get to retirement. That's

21:24

the beautiful thing. You don't have to

21:26

pick your strategy today. You can just

21:28

have things in mind and go, okay,

21:30

I would intend to do this, but

21:32

if that is an advantageous right now,

21:35

I'll do this. And you do have

21:37

that choice, Rob. And I think that's

21:39

the beautiful thing about this episode. It

21:41

should be putting a lot of people

21:43

at ease, because I think a lot

21:45

of people get stressed about the end

21:47

game game. often before they've even started

21:49

to go, well, what will I do

21:51

about this or what will I do

21:53

about my interest only mortgages? Well as

21:55

we've demonstrated today, you don't just have

21:57

one option, you have many options. And

21:59

they're all really good options. And everything

22:01

we've talked about is a bit artificial,

22:03

right? You're not realistically going to do

22:05

any of these strictly. No one's going

22:07

to get to the age of 65

22:09

and then suddenly go boom, sell everything

22:11

overnight. Realistically, you're going to be more

22:13

opportunistic. You're going to take advantage of

22:15

market conditions. There are times when it's

22:17

good to sell and times when it's

22:19

not. So I think you can have

22:21

a template in mind, but life is

22:23

always messier than spreadsheets. So you're going

22:25

to have circumstances changing on you. So

22:27

you don't have to, wherever you are

22:29

today, whether you're just getting started or

22:32

your little bit in. I don't think

22:34

you need to be picking one of

22:36

these and committing to it. You can

22:38

have a leaning towards what you're going

22:40

to do, and it can be useful

22:42

to have ideas in mind. But for

22:44

me, Rob, the takeaway from this episode

22:46

shouldn't be, right, I need to choose

22:48

one of one of these. I need

22:50

to choose one of these. I need

22:52

to choose one of these. I need

22:54

to choose one of these. I need

22:56

to choose one of these. I've got

22:58

loads of options and they're all really

23:00

good ones. The driver behind all of

23:02

these, the reason that you've got all

23:04

of these great options is because you've

23:06

got this wonderful thing that we've talked

23:08

about so many times before where your

23:10

debt stays static and your property value

23:12

gradually increases. In other words, over time,

23:14

even if you start with loan to

23:16

value of 75% over time, your property

23:18

values, go up, your equity grows, which

23:20

brings your loan to value down, which

23:22

is what puts you in this wonderful

23:24

position. Even if you're refinancing as you

23:27

go along to grow faster, which some

23:29

people do, then as long as you

23:31

put in some kind of coast phase

23:33

at the end, so you might spend

23:35

10 years aggressively refinancing, growing as fast

23:37

as you can, then another 10 years

23:39

just coasting, letting property values go up,

23:41

letting your debt stay where it is,

23:43

you'll still end up in a position

23:45

where you've got loads of equity and

23:47

loads of options. Load of value in

23:49

this week's episode, but we're not a

23:51

bit extra. And Rob, this week you

23:53

are bringing us a show. What have

23:55

you been to see? I've been to

23:57

see Choir of Man in the West

23:59

End. It was so good. It was

24:01

amazing. So it's a musical, I'd barely

24:03

call it a musical because it's really

24:05

light on plots. There's basically none. It's

24:07

great singing, great choreography. It's based around

24:09

the concept of a pub. There's a working

24:12

bar on stage. They give out free beer

24:14

to the audience during the show. It's just

24:16

really fun. Thoroughly recommend it.

24:18

I think you've just got another ticket sold

24:20

of that free beer Rob. I'm already on

24:23

the website. Sounds great. I do love a

24:25

musical. Highly. recommend you support our wonderful industry

24:27

in the West End. I've not heard of

24:29

that show if I'm being completely honest so

24:32

I look forward to checking it out and

24:34

adding it to my list. Good recommendation.

24:36

And I've got a good recommendation for

24:39

you to pick up the Sunday times on Sunday

24:41

where you'll find us answering more of your questions

24:43

or join us on Tuesday for Ask Rob and

24:45

Rob and Rob and of course put next Thursday

24:48

in your calendar ready, bright and early

24:50

because we will be with another property

24:52

podcast. So until all those wonderful events

24:54

occur, take care, have fun. Have fun.

24:56

Bye bye!