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turbotax.com/ guarantees. This is the poll

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stories about the people and places

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at the Heart of Health and

0:22

Science. I'm Mike and Scott. In

0:24

the early 2000s, new parents were

0:26

told to keep their babies and

0:28

toddlers away from peanuts. Thinking that

0:31

peanut abstinence early in life

0:33

would reduce their risk of

0:35

a penitology later in life.

0:37

That surgeon and public policy

0:39

researcher Marty McCarry, he's recently

0:41

been tapped to run the

0:43

US Food and Drug Administration.

0:45

I got this peanut advice

0:48

when I became a mom

0:50

and I followed it. I

0:52

remember my pediatrician telling me

0:54

that if a baby has

0:56

an allergic reaction to peanuts,

0:58

it could be deadly. That

1:01

really scared me. So I

1:03

followed the guidelines, as did

1:05

many, many other parents. But

1:07

Marty says, then something unexpected

1:09

happened. We just started to

1:11

watch peanut allergies increase. And

1:13

they thought, gosh, we need

1:15

to double down. We need

1:17

to get more parents to

1:20

comply with peanut abstinence in

1:22

their kids, zero through three

1:24

years of age. And the more they

1:26

doubled down, the worse it got. Peanut

1:28

allergies exploded. The recommendation

1:30

had backfired. And Marty says,

1:33

mostly because the advice was

1:35

flawed to begin with. They

1:37

got it perfectly backwards. It

1:40

turns out... immune tolerance, or what

1:42

we call the dirt theory, is a

1:44

real thing. And that is, when a

1:46

kid is exposed to things early in

1:48

life, like a little bit of peanut

1:50

butter at five or six months of

1:52

age, then they're far less likely to

1:55

develop a peanut algae later in life.

1:57

Marty talks about this in his

1:59

latest book. blind spots when medicine

2:01

gets it wrong and what it

2:03

means for our health. How did

2:05

this peanut abstinence idea become dogma?

2:07

Was there any research on this

2:09

or where did this come from?

2:12

There was no good science to

2:14

support it. It was in the

2:16

words of some of the experts

2:18

who issued the recommendation when I

2:20

interviewed them for the book, it

2:22

was kind of their gut feeling.

2:24

They just thought made made sense

2:26

to them. There was no study

2:28

to support it. The little scientific

2:30

research there was did not really

2:32

support it, but they sort of

2:35

used it to support that what

2:37

they were saying was evidence-based. And

2:39

the worst thing you can do

2:41

in medicine is to put something

2:43

out there with such absolutism as

2:45

if it's scientifically based when really

2:47

it's just a hunch or an

2:49

opinion of a small group of

2:51

people. Now, this

2:53

is probably not the only

2:56

reason peanut allergies went up

2:58

so dramatically, but this advice

3:01

definitely played a role. It

3:03

has affected an entire generation

3:06

of children and potentially shaken

3:08

trust in medical advice. When

3:10

it comes to health and

3:13

science, flawed guidelines or scientific

3:15

studies that turn out to

3:18

be wrong can have a

3:20

huge impact and affect millions

3:23

of people. Of course, that's

3:25

also true for positive developments.

3:27

For example, discoveries that lead

3:30

to life-saving treatments and cures.

3:32

On this episode, ripple effects,

3:35

understanding the lasting consequences of

3:37

decisions and events. To

3:47

get started, let's hear some more

3:49

from Marty McCarry. He told me

3:51

when parents tried to question the

3:54

peanut guidelines back in the early

3:56

2000s, it usually didn't go well.

3:58

They were called anti- science, some

4:00

were mocked, some parents were shamed.

4:03

We still see some of these

4:05

arguments take place in school districts

4:07

and school boards. Peanut allergies are

4:10

real and kids die from them.

4:12

We see now an epidemic of

4:14

kids coming to the emergency room

4:16

or they have to travel with

4:19

an epipen because of a severe

4:21

peatology. We shouldn't mock that. But

4:23

parents who had said... I insist

4:25

on being able to feed my

4:28

kid a little bit of peanut

4:30

butter early in childhood. They were

4:32

actually preventing peanut allergies when they

4:35

were sort of labeled as being

4:37

anti-science. What about scientists and physicians

4:39

who publicly started to push back

4:41

against these guidelines? Well, the most

4:44

famous pediatric allergist in the world,

4:46

Dr. Gideon Lack, spoke out vocally

4:48

against this recommendation. Now he was

4:50

in London. and he wrote an

4:53

article basically suggesting that there would

4:55

be some disastrous unintended consequences, which

4:57

of course there were. He did

5:00

a study in 2008 to try

5:02

to show that this logic was

5:04

flawed. And some people took notice,

5:06

but a lot of people just

5:09

kept following the catechism of the

5:11

American Academy of Pediatrics to promote

5:13

peanut abstinence until he turns three.

5:16

Finally, Dr. Lacked did the ultimate

5:18

study. an elegant randomized control trial

5:20

in 600 plus kids in London.

5:22

The study just randomized kids to

5:25

both approaches and found kids need

5:27

a little bit of peanut butter

5:29

early in infancy as soon as

5:31

they can take food and it

5:34

had an eightfold reduction in subsequent

5:36

peanut algae rates when they did

5:38

that. That study should have been

5:41

done before the dogma, not 15

5:43

years into it. The American Academy

5:45

of Pediatrics. followed up at some

5:47

point, right, changing the guidelines, but

5:50

it took a while. They did

5:52

in 2015 and then again in

5:54

2017 they did change their official

5:57

guidance, but you did not see

5:59

a sort of public acknowledgement, a

6:01

sort of reckoning of the dogma,

6:03

a change that was issued with

6:06

the same fervor at which the

6:08

initial recommendation was delivered. And I

6:10

think that lack of humility is

6:12

why we have distrust in medicine

6:15

today. We generally don't see humility

6:17

when medicine gets it wrong. When

6:19

it comes to the food pyramid,

6:22

hormone replacement therapy, peanut allergy prevention.

6:24

We don't see this sort of

6:26

broad acknowledgement put out there with

6:28

the same vigor by which the

6:31

original dogma was put out. In

6:33

his book, Marty also dives into

6:35

the topic of cholesterol, another area

6:38

where he feels like the guidelines

6:40

got it wrong. He writes about

6:42

his uncle who really enjoyed eating

6:44

eggs. So my uncle Samuel, or

6:47

we call him Uncle Sam, loved

6:49

eggs his whole life. It was

6:51

part of his life back in

6:53

Egypt where he grew up and

6:56

then when he came to the

6:58

United States, an American doctor told

7:00

him, you've got to stop eating

7:03

eggs. They're high in fat and

7:05

they're high in cholesterol. And he

7:07

wrestled with his doctor for years

7:09

and negotiated and then eventually gave

7:12

up what he loved most in

7:14

life. And that was his morning

7:16

ritual where he had his eggs.

7:18

And finally his son became a

7:21

doctor and told him, Papa, the

7:23

research now is pretty clear. The

7:25

cholesterol we eat is not absorbed

7:28

by your body. By and large.

7:30

It goes right through your system.

7:32

90 plus percent of it. Your

7:34

cholesterol in your body is made

7:37

by your liver. 99% of your

7:39

cholesterol is made by your body.

7:41

It's not from the cholesterol we

7:44

eat. And the demonization of natural

7:46

fat was a medical dogma that

7:48

is not held up in studies.

7:50

So. My uncle Sam is back

7:53

to eating eggs at the age

7:55

of 92 in Florida. But there

7:57

is still a lot of confusion

7:59

over fat in our diets and

8:02

how it impacts cholesterol. It's ironic,

8:04

the low-fat diet was such a

8:06

strong dogma. I mean this was

8:09

the number one thing we as

8:11

doctors told patients for 70 years

8:13

when they came to see us.

8:15

We'd say you need exercise and

8:18

eat better and the number one

8:20

thing we would say when we

8:22

tell people to eat better. is

8:25

to avoid natural fats. And I

8:27

remember when I first came to

8:29

the US from Europe in the

8:31

90s, everything was fat free. Everything,

8:34

there was fat free cheese and

8:36

fat free milk. And I just

8:38

remember thinking, like, what is this

8:40

stuff? Like, and why are they

8:43

so obsessed? Like, the thought about

8:45

fat had never crossed my mind

8:47

until I came here. And this

8:50

was like a total obsession. And

8:52

people were eating mountains of pasta

8:54

and then telling me like, it's

8:56

fat free. So it really was

8:59

like this weird obsession for a

9:01

while. It really was a pile-on

9:03

effect, kind of a mob mentality

9:06

to demonize natural fats. I mean,

9:08

ironically, what we did in school

9:10

lunch programs is removed the one

9:12

thing that was not bad for

9:15

you, natural fat, in milk, and

9:17

then added sugar. And so we

9:19

would create these foods, I don't

9:21

even know if we should call

9:24

them foods, but many of them

9:26

were ultra-processed, they were designed to

9:28

have a long shelf life, they

9:31

were cooked with seed oils that

9:33

sound natural like vegetable oil, but

9:35

they're really denatured and changed with

9:37

a chemical solvent. And the immune

9:40

system is reacting to all of

9:42

these things. At the level of

9:44

the gut, we get an inflammatory

9:46

response. and it causes general body

9:49

inflammation, it makes people feel sick

9:51

when their gut is a little

9:53

inflamed. And why do you think

9:56

we medicate so many people and

9:58

what is it? root of so

10:00

many chronic diseases it's general body

10:02

inflammation. So we picked the wrong

10:05

villain in demonizing fat and it

10:07

still is a recommendation that looms

10:09

large to this day. Marty

10:15

McCarry is a surgeon and public

10:18

policy researcher at Johns Hopkins University

10:20

in Baltimore. He's been selected by

10:22

the Trump administration to head the

10:25

FDA. His latest book is Blind

10:27

Spots, when medicine gets it wrong

10:30

and what it means for our

10:32

health. We're talking about ripple effects.

10:34

In science, one small discovery can

10:37

lead to another and then another.

10:39

Eventually, there is a breakthrough. Once

10:41

the breakthrough happens, it's easy to

10:44

forget about the road that brought

10:46

us there, the basic science that

10:49

made it happen. That kind of

10:51

research often becomes a target when

10:53

spending cuts are looming, because it

10:56

can seem silly or superfluous. Alan

10:58

Eub takes a look at one

11:01

study from the 1980s that has

11:03

had a powerful ripple effect. Its

11:05

results have now changed the lives

11:08

of millions of people around the

11:10

globe. In the summer of 1980,

11:13

gastro-enterologist Jean-Pierre Ralphman got his first

11:15

position at the National Institutes of

11:17

Health after medical residencies and fellowships.

11:20

The research did not seem especially

11:22

glamorous. His job was to take

11:25

pancreases from guinea pigs and essentially

11:27

dose them with venom from various

11:29

animals like bees, wasps, snakes, frogs,

11:32

and lizards. that it was a

11:34

step-by-step addition of known amounts of

11:36

each of these venoms to a

11:39

test tube containing bits of pancreas.

11:41

So every day for weeks he

11:44

would dissolve powdered venom into water,

11:46

added to test tubes with bits

11:48

of guinea pig pancreas, and see

11:51

what happened. This was part of

11:53

a research project on the digestive

11:56

system. The pancreas plays an important

11:58

role here, since it produces enzymes

12:00

that help digest our food. And

12:03

the researcher Jean Pierre was working

12:05

for wanted to know if there

12:08

was anything in the venom that

12:10

would trigger the system to release

12:12

more digestive enzymes, digest food more

12:15

quickly. Day in and day out,

12:17

Jean Pierre tested different venoms. It

12:20

can be quite tedious. The hope

12:22

is that in the end run

12:24

that you discover something interesting. And

12:27

it's even more tedious if the

12:29

experiment fails. You can do all

12:31

of that and end up with

12:34

nothing. But Jean Pierre was not

12:36

thinking about failure. It was partly

12:39

about the journey. I found it

12:41

intellectually interesting. I was young and

12:43

perhaps naive at the time, but

12:46

I thought it was a great

12:48

project. And from a training point

12:51

of view, I would learn a

12:53

lot of methods in doing this

12:55

kind of work, which I did.

12:58

Eventually, after lots of tests, Jean

13:00

Pierre found that the venom that

13:03

triggered the biggest reaction in the

13:05

guinea pig pancreas came from the

13:07

healer monster. It's a large orange

13:10

and black lizard that can grow

13:12

up to 22 inches. It lives

13:15

in deserts in the southwestern part

13:17

of the US and hunts with

13:19

its powerful jaws. grab onto a

13:22

mouse or another rodent in the

13:24

desert and either break its neck

13:26

just with the strong jaws or

13:29

just hold on to it until

13:31

it eventually succumbs. It's also one

13:34

of the rare lizards that have

13:36

venom. Jean Pierre and his colleagues

13:38

talked about what they found in

13:41

healer monster venom at conferences with

13:43

other gastroenterologists and published their findings.

13:46

It was seemingly an interesting biological

13:48

finding would never have conceived that

13:50

there was any potential therapeutic benefit

13:53

for anything. To my recollection I

13:55

never tested it in human cells.

13:58

Jean Pierre later isolated... the specific

14:00

protein in the venom that the

14:02

guinea pig pancreas reacted to and

14:05

published about that as well. Then

14:07

he got a different job in

14:10

Brooklyn where he met another young

14:12

scientist who was also interested in

14:14

the venom. They continued to work

14:17

on the specific protein. They figured

14:19

out the shape of the protein,

14:21

what it does, and also how

14:24

to make it in a lab

14:26

without using a healer monster sample.

14:29

They found that the protein works

14:31

like a hormone called G.L.P.1, a

14:33

hormone that humans have, which triggers

14:36

the pancreas to release insulin. And

14:38

we saw that paper and we

14:41

said, why would the lizard have

14:43

something like G.L.P.1 in its saliva?

14:45

Is this lizard a separate G.L.P.1?

14:48

That's endocrinologist Daniel Drucker at the

14:50

University of Toronto. He was interested

14:53

in GLP1 around the same time

14:55

in the 1980s. Right away, there

14:57

was a realization that something that

15:00

stimulates insulin secretion could be used

15:02

for the treatment of diabetes. We

15:05

all immediately thought about this. Insulin

15:07

helps keep blood sugar within healthy

15:09

levels. Daniel said scientists at the

15:12

time were trying to make a

15:14

human diabetes treatment based on GLP1.

15:16

But they struggled because humans would

15:19

naturally break down the hormone. And

15:21

if they got too much of

15:24

it too quickly, they got sick.

15:26

So when he heard about the

15:28

work on the healer monster venom,

15:31

he tried to get samples. You

15:33

can't just go online and click

15:36

on live gila monster and push

15:38

send. Daniel and other scientists worked

15:40

for weeks to ship a live

15:43

lizard from the US to Toronto

15:45

and cut out the gland that

15:48

makes the venom. They studied the

15:50

genes of the protein from the

15:52

venom and published that work. Other

15:55

researchers started testing GLP1 in humans

15:57

in the late 80s. continued in

16:00

the 90s and early 2000s. It

16:02

took a while because scientists at

16:04

first struggled to make a version

16:07

of the drug that will be

16:09

stable in the human body long

16:11

enough to work. And they had

16:14

to balance a dose that was

16:16

large enough to be effective, but

16:19

would not make people nauseous. Finally,

16:21

in 2005, decades after Jean Pierre

16:23

first studied healer monster venom. He

16:26

and Daniel and other researchers saw

16:28

their work lead to an approved

16:31

G.L.P.1 therapy in the US to

16:33

treat diabetes. We didn't know that

16:35

GELP1 would reduce appetite and be

16:38

useful for weight loss. We didn't

16:40

know that GELP1 would reduce heart

16:43

attacks and strokes and improve metabolic

16:45

liver disease and all of the

16:47

things that GELP1 does now. The

16:50

GELP1 therapy led to the drug

16:52

we now know as ozone pick.

16:57

It's a blockbuster drug. Millions

16:59

of people have prescriptions for

17:01

GLP1 medications. But it took

17:03

a lot of basic science

17:05

to get to this point.

17:07

Daniel says his work is

17:09

about learning more about the

17:11

world, rather than applied science,

17:13

which tries to find ways

17:15

to use that knowledge. We

17:17

would often do experiments in

17:19

animals to say, hey, this

17:21

would work, this strategy would

17:23

work, and then the pharmaceutical

17:25

or biotech companies would say,

17:27

well, let's try and develop

17:29

drugs based on these findings.

17:31

Jean Pierre is now a

17:34

professor of medicine and the

17:36

chair of the Castro anthropology

17:38

department at the University of

17:40

Maryland. He says he is

17:42

not sure if the National

17:44

Institutes of Health today would

17:46

ever fund research like that

17:48

again. He says the NIH

17:50

now sets a high bar

17:52

for researchers to show that

17:54

their work is likely to

17:56

translate to treating human disease

17:58

in some way. That was

18:00

not the case back when

18:02

he did his early research.

18:04

considered by NIH study sections

18:06

and others as sort of

18:08

a fishing expedition. If you

18:10

were a betting person, you'd

18:12

probably bet that we'd end

18:14

up with nothing. And he

18:16

says it could have ended

18:18

up with no useful human

18:21

application, but you never know

18:23

unless you try. It's very

18:25

rare, frankly, that something goes

18:27

this way and that frequently

18:29

It's a combination of luck,

18:31

some intelligence, some foresight, you

18:33

know, to doing the right

18:35

experiments. Nobody knew where it

18:37

would lead, and several of

18:39

the participants are unfortunately now

18:41

deceased, so really haven't seen

18:43

what's happened with this. Jean

18:45

Pierre says he's happy that

18:47

he got to see how

18:49

his research from decades ago

18:51

ultimately played out. What's happened

18:53

recently has allowed me to

18:55

sort of look at it.

18:57

from a longer view, you

18:59

know, to really get a

19:01

sort of global perspective of

19:03

the work and where it's

19:05

led. And I find it

19:07

very interesting, very cool. That

19:10

story was reported by Alan

19:12

Yu. We're talking about ripple

19:14

effects. Let's say you end

19:16

up in the hospital with

19:18

a debilitating illness and you're

19:20

not able to make care

19:22

decisions for yourself. We would

19:24

have somebody, usually a close

19:26

family member, a spouse, adult

19:28

sibling, an adult child, to

19:30

interact with doctors and help

19:32

make decisions based upon our

19:34

preferences for medical care. But

19:36

sometimes intensive care physician David

19:38

Oxman encounters a different, more

19:40

complicated situation, unrepresented patients. These

19:42

people don't have anyone to

19:44

speak for them. when they

19:46

become incapacitated. It's a small

19:48

but growing group. Some have

19:50

outlived their family members. or

19:52

are estranged from them. Maybe

19:54

they've moved around a lot,

19:57

sometimes substance use or homelessness

19:59

plays a role. It's especially

20:01

complicated with patients who have

20:03

dementia or can't communicate their

20:05

wishes for other reasons. These

20:07

unrepresented patients are at risk

20:09

for not getting a treatment

20:11

they need because if it's

20:13

not an emergency situation, doctors

20:15

can't offer treatments that they

20:17

don't have consent for. But

20:19

David says there's also a

20:21

big issue with O. treatment.

20:23

Particularly when it relates to

20:25

patients at the end of

20:27

life because there's no one

20:29

there to tell doctors not

20:31

to do something and for

20:33

many reasons because of the

20:35

system we live in doctors

20:37

feel compelled to offer maximal

20:39

treatment unless someone tells them

20:41

to stop. Because I guess

20:43

otherwise somebody could say Why

20:46

didn't you save Mr. Smith?

20:48

You could have. Right. Exactly.

20:50

Even when it becomes obvious

20:52

that these treatments are no

20:54

way possible in the best

20:56

interest of that patient. David

20:58

is a physician at Thomas

21:00

Jefferson University Hospital in Philadelphia

21:02

and also a medical ethicist.

21:04

He says most states have

21:06

provisions where medical guardians or

21:08

decision-makers can be appointed by

21:10

a court, but that takes

21:12

a long time. So in

21:14

the meantime, a search for

21:16

relatives begins. The hospital spent

21:18

a lot of time trying

21:20

to identify somebody. Oftentimes we

21:22

get police engaged to try

21:24

to find some long loss

21:26

relative. Sometimes we approach friends

21:28

or people who may not

21:30

traditionally be looked at to

21:33

act as a health care

21:35

agent, but who know the

21:37

patient in some way know

21:39

their values and may be

21:41

able to help us make

21:43

a decision. Sometimes David gets

21:45

on the phone himself to

21:47

find family members. distant ones

21:49

and if he does he

21:51

has to jump right into

21:53

uncomfortable conversations with them. Your

21:55

great uncle is critically ill

21:57

but you know he has

21:59

advanced cancer and advanced dementia.

22:01

I don't suspect him to

22:03

survive this illness. I recommend

22:05

that we don't pursue putting

22:07

him on a ventilator and

22:09

going through intensive critical care.

22:11

Do you agree with that?

22:13

Would you help us make

22:15

that decision? There's a whole

22:17

nother of questions, are you

22:20

really equipped to make that

22:22

decision? How could you possibly

22:24

know what the best interests

22:26

are? But as physicians, we're

22:28

sort of desperate, right? We're

22:30

trying to find somebody who

22:32

has some standing to make

22:34

that decision for them. And

22:36

in many cases, these distant

22:38

relatives are overwhelmed. Very often,

22:40

I'll make that phone call

22:42

and they'll say, well, I

22:44

just don't know. granduncle Charlie

22:46

well enough to make that

22:48

decision. I'm sorry. And then

22:50

you say what? Please. Then

22:52

I say I understand I

22:54

understand and I have to

22:56

try to find somebody else.

22:58

The situation has a big

23:00

ripple effect for patients but

23:02

also for hospitals. Because these

23:04

cases create enormous financial burdens

23:06

for hospitals, patients are often

23:09

in the hospital much longer

23:11

than they would be because

23:13

of delays. ICU care and

23:15

of life care is prolonged.

23:17

And then when a patient

23:19

does survive, they can't get

23:21

placed in a facility without

23:23

having someone to basically sign

23:25

them in. But people are

23:27

working on solutions, like David

23:29

Sontag. He is director of

23:31

ethics for Beth Israel Leahy

23:33

Health in Massachusetts. He says

23:35

this issue of unrepresented patients

23:37

is important to a lot

23:39

of people working in medicine.

23:41

Hospital staff will experience significant

23:43

distress when individuals, the patients

23:45

they're caring for, are not

23:47

able to get the best

23:49

available care. And he came

23:51

up with a way for

23:53

them to get involved. He

23:56

created a matching program where

23:58

health care professionals volunteer to

24:00

represent patients, not within their

24:02

own hospital systems, because that

24:04

could cross ethical boundaries, but

24:06

at other hospitals. This is

24:08

an opportunity for us to

24:10

help. some of the most

24:12

vulnerable members of our communities,

24:14

those who want nobody to

24:16

speak for them when they

24:18

can no longer speak for

24:20

themselves, and that allows us

24:22

to respect their autonomy throughout

24:24

their lives. All of the

24:26

volunteers work in health care,

24:28

but they get training on

24:30

how to ask people what

24:32

kind of care they want

24:34

to receive or not receive

24:36

in serious situations. Here's how

24:38

the matching program works. Health

24:40

care providers often ask if

24:42

patients have a health directive.

24:45

And if it turns out

24:47

during that conversation that a

24:49

patient doesn't have anybody listed

24:51

as their proxy in a

24:53

worst case scenario, they were

24:55

asked if they want to

24:57

enroll in this program. And

24:59

so you've got an unrepresented

25:01

person, we call them a

25:03

participant, and a volunteer, who

25:05

will be matched so they

25:07

can establish a relationship. And

25:09

so what it usually happens

25:11

is within 24 to 48

25:13

hours, I get a volunteer.

25:15

We connect. the volunteer to

25:17

that person, right, that participant,

25:19

so that they can have

25:21

a conversation and introduce themselves

25:23

to each other. And at

25:25

that point, usually, the participant

25:27

will complete a health care

25:29

proxy form, name the volunteer

25:32

as their health care agent,

25:34

and then have a conversation

25:36

about the participant's values, goals,

25:38

and preferences so that the

25:40

volunteer knows how to make

25:42

decisions on their behalf if

25:44

that time ever comes. The

25:46

program has been running for

25:48

over two years now, and

25:50

David says writing about it.

25:52

talking about it at conferences

25:54

has had a positive ripple

25:56

effect. And we have more

25:58

people who are reaching out.

26:00

when they've heard about it

26:02

to see how they might

26:04

be able to start their

26:06

own program. That's David Sontag,

26:08

director of ethics for Beth

26:10

Israel Leahy Hills in Massachusetts.

26:12

Coming up, breaking the silence

26:14

surrounding trauma and violence in

26:16

a small town. People didn't

26:18

do a lot of talking

26:21

back then, and it was

26:23

almost like trying to pull

26:25

teeth out of a hand.

26:27

That's next, on the pulse.

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is the polls. I'm Mike

28:25

and Scott. We're Trauma can

28:27

have an impact across generations.

28:29

In 1942, a black man

28:31

was lynched in Sykston, Missouri.

28:34

In the aftermath, many black

28:36

families in town either fled

28:38

or used silence as a

28:40

survival strategy to keep themselves

28:42

safe. If children asked about

28:45

the incident, they were told

28:47

to be quiet. Nobody talked

28:49

about it, but everybody knew

28:51

what had happened. Everybody was

28:53

terrified. Almost 80 years later

28:55

in 2020, an unarmed black

28:58

man was killed by police

29:00

in the same town. The

29:02

podcast series Silence in Saxton

29:04

explores the impact of these

29:06

two tragedies and how they

29:09

have affected family members. Here's

29:11

reporter and host Kara Anthony.

29:13

When Anita Forrest was growing

29:15

up, a lot went on

29:17

set in her family. You

29:19

know, people didn't do a

29:22

lot of talking back then,

29:24

and it was almost like

29:26

trying to pull teeth out

29:28

of a hand. She lived

29:30

nearly her whole life in

29:33

Indiana, but Nenetta's story, The

29:35

Secrets, and The Silence, all

29:37

started in Sykeston, Missouri. Nenetta

29:39

was born there in 1942.

29:41

Several months earlier, while her

29:43

mother was pregnant, Nenetta's father

29:46

was lynched. His name was

29:48

Cleo Wright, was Cleo Wright.

29:50

He was taken away before

29:52

I got here. Taken from

29:54

a jail cell, taken and

29:57

dragged through the streets by

29:59

a white mob. taken a

30:01

sunset edition, the center of

30:03

black life in Sykeson, and

30:05

lynched, taken from his family.

30:07

Nanetta's mother kept quiet. She

30:10

never wanted her daughter to

30:12

know what happened to her

30:14

father. But one day, Nanetta

30:16

was with her grandfather. A

30:18

game show that aired on

30:21

CBS in the 1950s was

30:23

on TV. It was called

30:25

Strike It Rich. Mr. Strike

30:27

it with himself, Lauren Hall.

30:29

Celebrities would go on and

30:31

they'd try to win money

30:34

for like underprivileged people. And

30:36

that's when Grandpa told me,

30:38

he said, you can go

30:40

on there, Nan. And I

30:42

said, go on there with

30:45

what? And that's when he

30:47

went in his wallet and

30:49

pulled out this yellow piece

30:51

of paper. It was a

30:53

newspaper clipping. about the lynching

30:55

of her father. And that

30:58

was my first time ever

31:00

becoming aware of it. It

31:02

was around 1955. Nanetta was

31:04

13 or 14 at the

31:06

time. I did want to

31:09

know the story behind it,

31:11

what happened, but nobody seemed

31:13

to want to talk about

31:15

it. Over the years, she

31:17

pieced together bits of what

31:19

happened, but there was always

31:22

one nagging question that didn't

31:24

have an answer. What

31:26

would her life have been

31:28

like if that mob hadn't

31:31

lynched her dad? Now I

31:33

do often wonder that. Had

31:35

he been alive when I

31:37

was born and been in

31:39

my life, what type of

31:41

person would I have been?

31:43

Would I have been the

31:45

same person? Would I have

31:48

been a different person? And

31:50

this is something I'll never

31:52

know. I've traveled to Sykes

31:54

and Missouri for years. asking

31:56

people about the killing of

31:58

Cleo Wright and the silence

32:00

that surrounds his death. Nearly

32:02

eight decades after the killing.

32:05

That silence was still stifling,

32:07

like generations of stuffed down

32:09

fear and anger. At nearly

32:11

every turn, locals refused to

32:13

talk to me. In fact,

32:15

many people felt they could

32:17

not talk to me until

32:19

I met Michaela Jackson. It's

32:22

no healing from grief. It's

32:24

the everyday thing for me.

32:26

My Kila goes by Kiki.

32:28

She's in her mid-key. She's

32:30

in her mid-twos. She's in

32:32

her mid-twos by but she's

32:34

heard about the lynching back

32:36

in 1942. Denzel brought that

32:39

up to me because we

32:41

used to live on Sunset

32:43

Street and he was telling

32:45

me like they dragged him

32:47

through a sunset. Denzel is

32:49

Denzel Taylor, Kiki's fiancé. Sykes

32:51

and police shot him at

32:53

least 18 times and killed

32:56

Denzel in April 2020. He

32:58

was 23 years old. That

33:00

year. That year... Everyone was

33:02

talking about new research that

33:04

found that a black man

33:06

had a one and one

33:08

thousand chance of being killed

33:10

by police. Denzel Taylor became

33:13

that one in a thousand.

33:15

Right in the middle of

33:17

her grief, Kiki refused to

33:19

be quiet. The boot heel

33:21

knows what happened to him.

33:23

The world, they have no

33:25

idea who Denzel Taylor is.

33:27

The boot heel is where

33:30

Syxton sits. in the far

33:32

southeast corner of Missouri. So

33:34

that's why I want his

33:36

stories. I want to make

33:38

him proud, actually, because I

33:40

want him to know, look

33:42

babe, they gonna hear this

33:44

one way or another. Denzel

33:47

was from Chicago. Growing up,

33:49

he spent time in southeastern

33:51

Missouri with his dad's family.

33:53

Denzel and Kiki met in

33:55

Sykeston, and Kiki says they

33:57

fell in love immediately. It

33:59

was a butterfly feeling. Like,

34:01

you could just tell it

34:04

was love, it was the

34:06

best energy. ever. They started

34:08

their family. Danielle was born

34:10

first. Denzel used to call

34:12

her cupcake. Hey, cupcake. Hey.

34:14

Hey. Hey, Prisell. Iana came

34:16

next. In 2020, Kiki was

34:18

pregnant with their third daughter,

34:21

Brooklyn. He said he wanted

34:23

seven kids. I said this

34:25

is a what? He wanted

34:27

a second kid. That's a

34:29

basketball team. I can't handle

34:31

that. They were planning to

34:33

get married after Brooklyn was

34:35

born. I really wanted a

34:38

big family with this. I

34:40

wanted to get married. I

34:42

wanted to go to that.

34:44

We was playing on moving

34:46

to Dallas and everything. And

34:48

it's just like my whole

34:50

world is just like it

34:52

just blew up on me.

34:55

It felt like the news

34:57

was full of stories about

34:59

black people getting killed by

35:01

police. Videos from body cameras

35:03

were all over social media.

35:05

Around that same time, Kiki

35:07

remembers Denzel getting pulled over

35:09

by police more and more.

35:12

And Kiki says, he started

35:14

to become convinced that someday

35:16

he might be killed by

35:18

police too. He said if

35:20

he was to ever get

35:22

in any type of interaction

35:24

with the police, he would

35:26

let them kill him. Just

35:29

to show how America is

35:31

he would bring it up

35:33

like out of nowhere and

35:35

he would say it and

35:37

I would wonder like why

35:39

is you? Constantly saying it

35:41

and I kind of get

35:43

irritated because it's like That's

35:46

not a way that I

35:48

will want you to go

35:50

out. We're supposed to grow

35:52

old together We're

35:55

listening to an excerpt from

35:57

the podcast series Silence in

36:00

Sykeston reported by Kara Anthony.

36:02

The night police shot and

36:04

killed Denzel Taylor, he had

36:06

gotten into an argument with

36:08

his father. The fight escalated

36:10

and Denzel shot his dad.

36:12

Police were then looking for

36:14

Denzel and when they found

36:17

him, there was a verbal

36:19

exchange and then officers shot

36:21

him multiple times. Everything was

36:23

captured by the police body

36:25

camps. Danzel was unarmed. By

36:27

the time the ambulance arrived,

36:29

he had died. No charges

36:31

were filed against the officers,

36:34

but the families sued the

36:36

city of Sykston, and they

36:38

later reached a wrongful death

36:40

settlement for $2 million. Danzel's

36:42

absence is felt every day,

36:44

especially by those who were

36:46

closest to him. Here is

36:48

reporter, Cara Anthony again, with

36:50

more from the podcast. Kiki

36:53

watched the body cam video

36:55

over and over, but Denzel's

36:57

death just wouldn't sink in.

36:59

And she's worried about their

37:01

daughters. I hope they never

37:03

see the video, because that's

37:05

traumatizing, because there's their day

37:07

in. Eventually, Kiki left Sexton.

37:10

She says there are too

37:12

many memories of Denzel and

37:14

what happened to him there.

37:16

On the day I visited

37:18

her new home, it was

37:20

just over a year after

37:22

Denzel death. Two-year-old Diana is

37:24

napping in the next room.

37:27

Kiki has the youngest Brooklyn

37:29

on her lap. And the

37:31

oldest, the Nia, is everywhere.

37:33

Right now, she's zooming through

37:35

the dining room on a

37:37

scooter. She just did like

37:39

a trick, like a BMX.

37:41

She's BMX and in this

37:44

apartment right now. Is she

37:46

a daredevil? She knew the

37:48

hotel. Denise Parker wheels and

37:50

talked to me. Tell me

37:52

your name again and how

37:54

old you are. And what

37:56

is your name? Denise. In

37:58

my time as a health...

38:01

reporter. I've written a lot

38:03

about the impact gun violence

38:05

has on kids. I've got

38:07

some training in how to

38:09

talk to them about it

38:11

on their level without retromatizing

38:13

them. Your mom is sitting

38:15

here and she said I

38:17

have permission to ask you

38:20

about your daddy. You said

38:22

he's sleeping? Yes. That's what

38:24

she said. She said, my

38:26

daddy's sleeping. Denia's trying to

38:28

make sense of why her

38:30

dad isn't with them anymore.

38:32

And Kiki doesn't know what

38:34

to tell her. Like last

38:37

night she actually woke up

38:39

at her sleep and she

38:41

was crying. And she was

38:43

like, Mom, my daddy. And

38:45

I didn't know what to

38:47

tell her because it's like,

38:49

what did you tell a

38:51

four-year-old that they're never, ever

38:54

going to see their dad

38:56

again? I

38:58

called a pediatrician, Reaboid, to

39:00

talk about what losing a

39:02

parent to police violence could

39:04

mean for kids like De

39:06

Nia, Iana, and Brooklyn. Regardless

39:08

of the age children experience

39:10

longing, they miss people when

39:12

they don't see them again.

39:14

Even babies can experience that.

39:16

Losing a parent, especially to

39:18

violence, can have a major

39:20

impact on a child's future

39:22

health. Certain experiences, including the

39:24

death of a parent, increases

39:26

a child's risk, for certain

39:28

physical health ailments like heart

39:30

disease, kind of neurologic ailments

39:32

like increased risk for Alzheimer's,

39:34

mental health impairments like increased

39:36

risk for depression, and these

39:38

are increased risks as they

39:40

move into adulthood. Study after

39:42

study show the link, even

39:44

if we don't totally understand

39:46

all the mechanisms. It's not

39:48

just innate to our biology.

39:50

It's because of the conditions

39:52

in which black folks have

39:54

been forced to live. Black

39:56

people in the United States

39:58

carry more stress throughout their

40:00

lives. than white people. That

40:02

doesn't change, even when they

40:04

make more money. Researchers have

40:06

tied that stress to the

40:08

racism we deal with in

40:10

everyday interactions and to the

40:12

institutional racism that makes it

40:14

harder for us to take

40:16

care of ourselves and our

40:18

families. Black people age faster,

40:20

get sicker, and die sooner

40:22

than our white peers, and

40:24

carrying chronic stress is a

40:26

factor. Police violence contributes to

40:28

this too. Police are public

40:30

institutions and when they disproportionately

40:32

take the lives of black

40:34

folks or just a portion

40:36

police black neighborhoods that has

40:38

direct impacts on our lives,

40:40

on our well-being. Kiki says

40:42

back when she was living

40:44

in Sexton, she felt anxious

40:46

every time she saw police

40:48

lights in her rear-view mirror.

40:50

Now it's like, okay, here

40:52

go again, I'm getting pulled

40:54

over again. Because it's, I'm...

40:57

I'm used to it at this

41:00

point. I'm used to it. Used

41:02

to it, maybe, but not numb

41:04

to it. I can't tell my

41:07

kids, hey, don't be scared when

41:09

you get put over. Can't tell

41:11

them that, because I'm still scared

41:14

myself. Even a year later, I'm

41:16

still scared. Rhea calls this anticipatory

41:18

stress. Anticipatory stress means you carry

41:21

a level of vigilance and worry

41:23

and concern about things that might

41:25

happen to you or your kids.

41:28

Children can pick up on what's

41:30

going on in these situations and

41:32

can end up carrying that toxic

41:34

stress too. Cleo's daughter, Nanetta Forrest,

41:37

wasn't born yet when her father

41:39

was killed. When we last spoke

41:41

a few years before she died,

41:44

she was 78 years old and

41:46

she said she was still asking

41:48

herself that question that had nagged

41:51

at her her whole life. Who

41:53

would she have been? Would I

41:55

have been the same person? Would

41:58

I have been a different person?

42:00

and Denzell's girls, Denia and Diana,

42:02

and Brooklyn, who wasn't born yet.

42:05

Brooklyn might ask herself the same

42:07

thing as she grows. She has

42:09

no memories. She's never seen him

42:12

a day in her life. So

42:14

it's like she'll never know him,

42:16

like as a person. Kiki's looking

42:19

for ways to protect her daughters.

42:21

She's moved them away from Sykeston

42:23

to a city where she hopes

42:26

they'll have more peace. She wants

42:28

them to know all about their

42:30

dad. and how much he loved

42:32

them, and she wants them to

42:35

know his voice. It's the opposite

42:37

of silence. She wants them to

42:39

be able to heal out loud.

42:48

That's an excerpt from the

42:50

podcast series, Silence in Sykeston,

42:52

reported and hosted by Kara

42:54

Anthony. It's a co-production of

42:56

World and KFF Health News.

42:58

Zach Dyer and Taylor Cook

43:01

are the producers. Editing by

43:03

Simone Popperl. Tanya English is

43:05

the managing editor. Coming up,

43:07

what researchers are learning about

43:09

intergenerational drama. A lot of

43:12

offspring had... trouble with interpersonal

43:14

relationships, feeling that making an

43:16

emotional investment might not be

43:18

worth it. What if what

43:20

if they have to lose

43:22

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Bombus.com/NPR and use code NPR

45:03

for 20% off. This is

45:05

the polls. I'm Mike and

45:07

Scott. We're talking about ripple

45:09

effects. We just heard a

45:11

story about how trauma and

45:14

violence can continue to haunt

45:16

families and communities. Psychiatry Rachel

45:18

Yehuda began to notice this

45:20

intergenerational trauma while studying Holocaust

45:22

survivors. Because when we started

45:25

to set up a clinic

45:27

for Holocaust survivors, it was

45:29

the children of these survivors

45:31

that called us. and they

45:33

said that they were the

45:35

true casualties of the Holocaust

45:38

and we should offer them

45:40

a specialized treatment program. Rachel

45:42

is a professor of psychiatry

45:44

and neuroscience and the director

45:46

of traumatic stress studies at

45:49

the ICANN School of Medicine

45:51

at Mount Sinai in New

45:53

York. And when they said

45:55

they were casualties, what did

45:57

they mean? How did symptoms

45:59

show up in their lives?

46:02

How had they been raised?

46:04

Yeah, so at first I

46:06

didn't quite understand it myself.

46:08

But as they began to

46:10

explain it, I just found

46:13

that it all made sense.

46:15

Many describe growing up with

46:17

parents that were traumatized, fearful,

46:19

concerned that something like the

46:21

Holocaust would happen again. Many

46:23

survivors had needs that required

46:26

their children. to help them

46:28

through difficult times as opposed

46:30

to having parents that will

46:32

help you manage and negotiate

46:34

your difficult times. And a

46:37

lot of times offspring found

46:39

themselves really in a very

46:41

overattached relationship with their parents,

46:43

that it mattered a lot

46:45

what their parents thought or

46:47

making sure their parents were

46:50

reassured about their own safety.

46:52

A lot of offspring had

46:54

trouble with interpersonal relationships, feeling

46:56

that making an emotional investment

46:58

might not be worth it.

47:01

What if they have to

47:03

lose someone that they love?

47:05

These children of survivors grew

47:07

up hearing vivid stories about

47:09

the Holocaust, so much so

47:11

that it sometimes gave them

47:14

nightmares about events they hadn't

47:16

experienced themselves. But they would

47:18

react to Holocaust-related triggers. as

47:20

if they themselves had survived

47:22

the trauma. So this wasn't

47:24

exactly PTSD per se, but

47:27

it was something. And a

47:29

lot of the offspring also

47:31

told us that they had

47:33

experienced depression and anxiety in

47:35

their lives. When we're talking

47:38

about intergenerational trauma, is that

47:40

passed down on a... physical

47:42

level or is it more

47:44

about in the way that

47:46

a person is is raised

47:48

the circumstances of their upbringing?

47:51

Well the two are very

47:53

connected aren't they? So it's

47:55

really hard to disentangle those

47:57

things. But trauma itself is

47:59

not passed. That's a really

48:02

important thing to say. Somehow

48:04

a fairly complex set of

48:06

scientific experiences got boiled down

48:08

as trauma is passed through

48:10

the genes or on the

48:12

genes. But what actually might

48:15

get passed are some of

48:17

the effects of the trauma.

48:19

that then remain because as

48:21

cells divide, some of the

48:23

remnants of those effects, particularly

48:26

if they are encoded epigenetically,

48:28

can survive cell division and

48:30

appear in the next generation.

48:32

So say for example, a

48:34

parent was traumatized and they

48:36

encoded a fear response that

48:39

they never resolved, right? So

48:41

it is possible to have...

48:43

a sensitivity to fear be

48:45

passed down through the generations.

48:47

And there's an animal study

48:50

that really demonstrated this very

48:52

well. It's very difficult to

48:54

study these complex phenomenon in

48:56

people. But there was one

48:58

beautiful study in mice where

49:00

male mice were taught to

49:03

fear the scent of cherry

49:05

blossom. the scent of cherry

49:07

blossom was paired with an

49:09

electric shock. So it didn't

49:11

take that long, maybe a

49:14

few trials, for the male

49:16

rat to just need to

49:18

have the scent of the

49:20

cherry blossom for it to

49:22

exhibit a fear response. And

49:24

when that happened, there were

49:27

a lot of epigenetic changes

49:29

in the genes that associate

49:31

with smell and things like

49:33

that and fear in the

49:35

brain. and those epigenetic changes

49:38

were present not only in

49:40

the brain but in the

49:42

male sperm and they were

49:44

present. in the second and

49:46

third generation. So what happens

49:48

in the second generation is

49:51

that if, let's say, it

49:53

took 10 trials to make

49:55

the father afraid of the

49:57

cherry blossom scent, it took

49:59

10 shocks, the offspring only

50:02

takes one or two. So

50:04

what has been, quote, inherited

50:06

seems to be the sensitivity

50:08

to fear. So something's definitely

50:10

transmitted. It's not a trauma.

50:12

But it's a lesson. that

50:15

wait a minute, this might

50:17

be something I need to

50:19

be afraid of. Do those

50:21

changes then disappear though after

50:23

a while? So let's say

50:26

we're now in the third

50:28

or fourth generation and there

50:30

seems to be no reason

50:32

to have this fear and

50:34

it doesn't bear out. Would

50:36

it go away then? I

50:39

think that animal studies have

50:41

shown that there can be

50:43

up to five generations where

50:45

this effect is maintained. But

50:47

what's really important is what

50:49

happens in those subsequent generations.

50:52

And the piece that always

50:54

gets missing from the conversation

50:56

is what is the offspring's

50:58

life like? Do they have

51:00

to respond to similar threats?

51:03

If so, that can perpetuate

51:05

some of these responses. So

51:07

that's another really important variable.

51:09

We don't just live as

51:11

passive offspring. that don't have

51:13

our own issues to deal

51:16

within the environment. And so

51:18

that becomes important too. But

51:20

what we get from our

51:22

ancestors might be a predisposition,

51:24

might be some kind of

51:27

wisdom about how to respond

51:29

so that we can be

51:31

better at it, so that

51:33

we can be quicker at

51:35

responding, so that we can

51:37

adapt. Now sometimes we don't

51:40

experience this as the gift

51:42

of adaptation. We experience it

51:44

as a compound and burden,

51:46

making us more vulnerable and

51:48

hypersensitive to the environment. But

51:51

we can't blame biology for

51:53

that. That's just a way

51:55

of learning a lesson. Really,

51:57

it's our environments and our

51:59

reactions to our environments that

52:01

are going to make a

52:04

difference in how we're able

52:06

to cope with these lessons

52:08

that have been passed to

52:10

us. What's the role of

52:12

communities in this question? Whether

52:15

or not you're the direct

52:17

descendant of a Holocaust survivor,

52:19

if you grow up in

52:21

a Jewish community, chances are

52:23

the Holocaust stories are being

52:25

told Holocaust remembrance is an

52:28

important aspect of cultural life.

52:30

So how does that affect?

52:32

people, is it, I'm assuming

52:34

it's not as strong as

52:36

if you're a direct descendant

52:39

obviously, but how does that

52:41

affect people to hear those

52:43

stories and to know I'm

52:45

part of this community that

52:47

went through this trauma? Being

52:49

in a community is an

52:52

environmental exposure and it's going

52:54

to have effects on you

52:56

just like anything else. That's

52:58

why it's so important to

53:00

invest in supportive communities. I

53:03

mean, it's something that we

53:05

throw out and say, but...

53:07

You can't overemphasize the importance

53:09

of community and how it

53:11

can help shape you and

53:13

change you and strengthen you

53:16

or make things worse depending

53:18

on whether if the community

53:20

is traumatizing or not. When

53:22

we started to see Holocaust

53:24

offspring, there was such a

53:27

wide range of people. Some

53:29

talked about how their parents

53:31

never stopped talking about the

53:33

Holocaust. Everything was related to

53:35

the Holocaust. There were bedtime

53:37

stories about how different relatives

53:40

disappeared or were murdered and

53:42

that was almost too much

53:44

for many many offspring. But

53:46

equally bad, equally deafening was

53:48

the silence surrounding parents who

53:50

never spoke a word about

53:53

what had happened to them,

53:55

and when Offspring found out

53:57

about this history of the

53:59

Holocaust, we're left with so

54:01

many questions on answer questions

54:04

about what it was like.

54:06

It wasn't just how frequently

54:08

people talked about the Holocaust,

54:10

but it was more how

54:12

they talked about the Holocaust

54:14

emotionally. If you're telling a

54:17

story with a modulated voice

54:19

that clearly suggests that the

54:21

horror is in the past,

54:23

That's something that can be

54:25

accepted more easily by the

54:28

next generation. And in fact,

54:30

it sends a powerful message

54:32

that the worst is survivable

54:34

because you're speaking about it

54:36

now from the perspective of

54:38

having it be fully integrated

54:41

and metabolized. But when a

54:43

parent talks about a horrible

54:45

story and starts to shake

54:47

and cry and tremble, and

54:49

behaves as if they're still

54:52

in the moment of terror

54:54

with the fight or flight

54:56

still visible, this sends a

54:58

very different message about the

55:00

fact that traumas of the

55:02

past can continue to wreak

55:05

havoc in the present moment.

55:07

And a lot of PTSD

55:09

or trauma therapy is really

55:11

about trying to own the

55:13

message of what happened in

55:16

the past is in the

55:18

past. One of the ways

55:20

in which people... retell the

55:22

story of their trauma and

55:24

maybe process it on some

55:26

level is to think about

55:29

resilience. What are the ways

55:31

they function that help them

55:33

overcome the trauma? And how

55:35

is that resilience building up

55:37

over time? So how do

55:40

you talk about resilience and

55:42

generational trauma? I think resilience

55:44

is the process of fighting

55:46

to keep going and It's

55:48

consistent with having symptoms. I

55:50

don't think about it as

55:53

if you have symptoms, you're

55:55

not resilient, but if you

55:57

don't have symptoms you are.

55:59

resilient. Resilience is kind of

56:01

a muscle that we have

56:04

to develop that really gives

56:06

us the strength to keep

56:08

moving forward, especially when it's

56:10

hard. Resilience is really about

56:12

knowing that there is something

56:14

positive on the other side

56:17

of adversity and kind of

56:19

working hard to get there

56:21

because you know it's there

56:23

and being able to find

56:25

some purpose in suffering and

56:28

make meaning in suffering. So

56:30

I think that that applies

56:32

to trauma survivors and intergenerational

56:34

survivors. We spent a lot

56:36

of time talking not only

56:38

about the wounds that people

56:41

may get as a result

56:43

of their parents' experiences, but

56:45

also the ancestral wisdom that

56:47

they might also have from

56:49

their parents. Like think about

56:52

that mouse. Who knows somehow

56:54

that Terry Blossom sent, you've

56:56

got to be careful and

56:58

learns quickly if somebody starts

57:00

to pair that Terry Blossom

57:02

sent with an electric shock

57:05

a lot quicker than his

57:07

father did. And so that's

57:09

ancestral wisdom. And I think

57:11

there's something comforting in thinking

57:13

about... I come from a

57:15

line of people that survived

57:18

this thing or this series

57:20

of terrible circumstances, and yet

57:22

here we are. And there

57:24

is something in that that

57:26

really gives you strengths. There

57:29

is. The trick is to

57:31

not have it really take

57:33

up a lot of real

57:35

estate in your day-to-day functioning.

57:37

In Judaism, for example, and

57:39

in other cultures as well,

57:42

there are days that memorialize

57:44

tragic historic events. That's very

57:46

positive, to take a day

57:48

to remember and reflect, as

57:50

opposed to constantly thinking about

57:53

it. So I think that

57:55

the key... and all of

57:57

this is being able to

57:59

balance. We don't want to

58:01

forget ancestral memories or our

58:03

own traumatic memories. We also

58:06

want to bear in mind

58:08

that first and foremost we

58:10

survived those things, even if

58:12

we survived them at a

58:14

cost, that we were equipped

58:17

to survive them and that

58:19

we can make meaning out

58:21

of them. Rachel

58:23

Yehuda is a professor of

58:25

psychiatry and neuroscience and the

58:28

director of traumatic stress studies

58:30

at the ICANN School of

58:32

Medicine at Mount Sinai in

58:34

New York. That's our show

58:37

for this week. The Pulse

58:39

is a production of W.H.Y.

58:41

in Philadelphia. You can find

58:44

us wherever you get your

58:46

podcast. Our health and science

58:48

reporters are Alan Yu and

58:50

Liz Tom. Our intern is

58:53

Christina Brown. Charlie Kyer is

58:55

our engineer and this week

58:57

we had additional engineering from

58:59

Diana Martinez. Our producers are

59:02

Nicole Curry and Lindsay Lazarski.

59:04

I'm Mike and Scott. Thank

59:06

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