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3:03

back to the race F1 Tech Show.

3:05

As always I'm Ed Straw but joining

3:07

me is the star of the show,

3:09

a designer of... Grand Prix winning cars

3:11

who you all know well, Gary Anderson.

3:13

She had a triple-headed Gary. We were

3:15

just talking before we started about the

3:17

frequency. I mean, a lot went on

3:20

in that triple-headed. Zuka feels like a

3:22

very long time ago and that was

3:24

just the start of it. Yeah, I

3:26

mean, it's as interesting as I was

3:28

thinking. You can have too much of

3:30

a good thing. I'm not sure where

3:32

the level actually lies because once you

3:34

start to have on race after race,

3:36

I mean, it's nice to look forward

3:39

to look forward to the next race.

3:41

But you have them every weekend that

3:43

sort of becomes a bit boring and

3:45

the old family ties start to struggle

3:47

a little bit. I suppose you might

3:49

call it with the half of the

3:51

family. It's not really as interesting a

3:53

motor racing as myself. I'm sure that

3:55

happens around the world. So it is

3:58

a happy medium. Twenty-four races in the

4:00

season. Difficult to do that without having

4:02

triple headers. But maybe double headers would

4:04

be... the right thing to have two

4:06

races and then a two week break

4:08

and then two races and two week

4:10

break and sort of balance it out

4:12

that way so once you're away you're

4:14

away for two races and once you're

4:17

home you've got a weekend off of

4:19

such and then even for the viewer

4:21

you've got a weekend off so yeah

4:23

it's a balance tonight but you know

4:25

in general But everybody seems to be

4:27

doing a good job with coping with

4:29

it. It's a whole different formula now

4:31

with the curve a few times and

4:33

all that for the mechanics. It's not

4:36

really the same as it used to

4:38

be where you used to arrive at

4:40

the track on a Thursday. Get finished

4:42

getting the cars ready as such and

4:44

you would normally classify it as lucky

4:46

if you left the track before Sunday

4:48

night. So it's a bit of a

4:50

different world nowadays, but yeah, it's still

4:52

very enjoyable. I like the competition. Yeah

4:54

the positive thing is we've had five

4:57

races in six weeks so suddenly we're

4:59

a fifth of the way through the

5:01

season and we've actually got a pretty

5:03

good picture of what's going on which

5:05

is going to give us plenty to

5:07

talk about so should we talk about

5:09

Lewis Hamilton now what I'm interested in

5:11

is you've got a driver there who's

5:13

changed teams he's adapting he's changing he's

5:16

learning we know that it's got a

5:18

little bit worse over the past few

5:20

race weekends he's talking about needing to

5:22

adapt his car characteristics that the clerk's

5:24

having to kind of deal with to

5:26

get the best out of the car

5:28

and he's he's accepted that well we

5:30

can't change the car to make it

5:32

work so I need to adapt and

5:35

can I so what do you do

5:37

if you're there as a on the

5:39

pit wall as a technical direct to

5:41

trying to work with a driver who

5:43

you know has all this ability what's

5:45

that situation like and how do you

5:47

get how do you find a way

5:49

to get the best out of them

5:51

particularly when it comes up to balancing

5:54

up what they want out of the

5:56

car and what they want out of

5:58

the car and what may be possible

6:00

to get out of the car. Yeah,

6:02

it's a really, really difficult one because,

6:04

you know, whenever we look at the

6:06

rookie drivers coming up, Hadjar, etc., Beerman,

6:08

Dooman, you know, they're coming from a

6:10

completely different formula, because it's a completely

6:13

different package to drive, absolutely, you know,

6:15

different dimension altogether. And yet, relative to

6:17

their team... It's, you know, they're all

6:19

doing a fairly comprehensive job. They're doing

6:21

a, you know, a very decent job.

6:23

So I don't think a seven times

6:25

world champion, however many races is one,

6:27

should be struggling to adapt to a

6:29

car in the same formula. It's not,

6:31

it shouldn't be like that. I've had

6:34

many experienced drivers come to us as

6:36

a team through my years and you

6:38

know. Yes, you'll always get the comments

6:40

where, you know, whenever I was an

6:42

X, Y, Z team, the car did

6:44

this and the car did that. That's

6:46

all okay. But, you know, we're not

6:48

X, Y, Z, and him. We are

6:50

who we are. And we have to,

6:53

you know, we have, we understand the

6:55

kind of way we understand the car.

6:57

Now, as far as Ferrari is concerned,

6:59

Charles, but Clerk, for example. So, you

7:01

know, Max's teammate is not someone you

7:03

want to be. And again, it's the

7:05

same molecular, you know, he's swayed the

7:07

team for Lewis. He's the one that's

7:09

got to accept. The car is quick.

7:12

You have to drive it correctly. It's

7:14

a bit of a fine line because

7:16

we keep hearing this, you know, to

7:18

count lower the ride out of the

7:20

car. he wants to run the car

7:22

low so they're probably running his car

7:24

stiffer or something but I'd have to

7:26

say that same from my point of

7:28

view with Sonoda at Red Bull and

7:31

with for Hamilton at Ferrari I was

7:33

here right chap you know we're gonna

7:35

do these set the car up the

7:37

way we think it's correct to shoot

7:39

the clerk and Microsoft and now you

7:41

go and drive it and learn see

7:43

what the car is doing and try

7:45

to adapt your style to a car

7:47

that we believe is set up correctly

7:50

to suit a Ferrari or Red Bull's

7:52

case or Red Bull. And as we

7:54

alter the setup or get the information

7:56

back from our team experienced driver, we'll

7:58

apply that to your car as well.

8:00

So to try to... to make sure

8:02

you're not going off the beaten track

8:04

for too many years. Now I've heard

8:06

that Lewis keeps saying, well, you know,

8:09

I was trying some way out wacky

8:11

experimental setup to do whatever and George

8:13

was quicker because he sort of didn't.

8:15

Well, you know, that was a Mercedes.

8:17

That's a team where Lewis was, you

8:19

know, leading the team. And it's very

8:21

difficult because if you're leading the team

8:23

and you're leading it down a blind

8:25

alley, that's what's going to happen when

8:27

you get to another team and wanting

8:30

to another team and wanting to... Run

8:32

different setups to the the driver who's

8:34

led the team to where they are

8:36

now So I think he needs to

8:38

step back a little bit and realize

8:40

that Form the one's tough. There are

8:42

good guys out there. You know Charles

8:44

R. It was a very fast qualifying

8:46

driver as such Max O'Connor and obviously

8:49

there we get Pastry and Norris You

8:51

know all of that bunch are very

8:53

good drivers and he needs to step

8:55

back a little bit and think I

8:57

think on a minute, it's not as

8:59

easy as I thought it was. It's

9:01

interesting perhaps to look at it a

9:03

little bit in terms of what's achievable

9:05

with the cars because some people listening

9:08

will probably think, well why don't Ferrari

9:10

make the car have the balance and

9:12

the characteristics Hamilton wants, then we know

9:14

it would be quick. But of course

9:16

you then got the challenge of what's

9:18

possible. So one example is he seems

9:20

to be struggling with some of that

9:22

rear instability into the fast corners, but

9:24

if you don't have that, then you'll

9:27

just have chronic understeer. sort of in

9:29

the middle of the fast corners and

9:31

that makes the car even slower and

9:33

the clerk has kind of accepted that

9:35

trade-off so it's not just a question

9:37

of flicking some switches and the car

9:39

does what you want it to be

9:41

and it's as quick because he could

9:43

have a Ferrari that gives him 100%

9:46

confidence but is a second-alap slower for

9:48

example so that it's not quite as

9:50

simple as just give him the car

9:52

that he wants. Yeah that's why I'm

9:54

saying give him the car that the

9:56

other guy's got. as opposed to trying

9:58

to get down a blind alley or

10:00

potentially a blind alley. You know, the

10:02

cars are very difficult, characteristics of the

10:04

car, the transient conditions of the car

10:07

is what it's about, and that's what

10:09

you're talking about, the re-rennance of the

10:11

fast corners. The car is always on

10:13

the move, it's never steady... it's always

10:15

transient. You know, you're lifting the throttle,

10:17

get back and the throttle, you're turning

10:19

the steering wheel, the car's rolling, it's

10:21

yowing. All those characteristics have an aerodynamic

10:23

influence on the car. And you know,

10:26

that's what you've got to try and

10:28

manage. You've got to try and come

10:30

up with the best aerodynamic characteristics. And

10:32

everything I keep saying, this old word

10:34

compromise, when you design in the car.

10:36

You know, you're trying to get the

10:38

most downforce out of it possible possible.

10:40

I've always been wrong for trying to

10:42

pursue as much stable downforce. I didn't

10:45

like picky downforce where you can tie

10:47

the car down to a millimeter ride

10:49

hire or something and suddenly you've got

10:51

10% more downforce. That's really not a

10:53

car that you want because the driver

10:55

can never drive the car in that

10:57

closed up condition. So I think yes,

10:59

it's still early days. I keep saying

11:01

that still early days and I would

11:04

hope to see him start to challenge.

11:06

and you know China and the sprint

11:08

race I mean yeah he was there

11:10

he was on pull position I'm on

11:12

the race you can't do that without

11:14

actually being better than the rest which

11:16

at that point in time he was

11:18

but it's it's gone away just as

11:20

quickly and some of that I'm not

11:23

quite sure because Ferrari still haven't shown

11:25

to me they've got the consistency they've

11:27

got the need in the car so

11:29

perhaps some of that is part of

11:31

the Ferrari inconsistency as well so I

11:33

think we need to sort of again

11:35

the old thing give it a little

11:37

bit more time for everything to settle

11:39

down a little bit, try to get

11:42

some consistency into the overall Ferrari results

11:44

and then judge this, maybe another three

11:46

races or something. But I will sort

11:48

of say that I don't think Lewis

11:50

Hamilton with his experience and the career

11:52

he's had should be struggling to pick

11:54

up what a car requires and adapt

11:56

to it. He should be able to

11:58

do that and I'm not seeing that

12:00

week-can-week-out. I'm seeing it on the odd

12:03

occasion, I eat China. But China sprint

12:05

race, it was like a light switch

12:07

went off for the main race. Someone

12:09

happened there must be there. Yeah, simple

12:11

thing. how to raise a ride hat

12:13

a bit more, maybe. And that's a

12:15

reason for it, but still at the

12:17

end of the day, you know, you've

12:19

got to adapt to these things and

12:22

get the best out of every weekend

12:24

you can. Yeah, still, I guess, early

12:26

for him, five races in, so let's

12:28

see if he comes back and does

12:30

in the next fifth of the season,

12:32

perhaps that's a good little measure. And

12:34

obviously the Norris vs vs Puyastri was,

12:36

and it was kind of a bit

12:38

the other way around. Norris was certainly

12:41

quicker in Saudi Arabia, he got it

12:43

badly wrong in qualifying, but Piestu wasn't

12:45

at his absolute best, but he did

12:47

win, which is always a good sign,

12:49

isn't it, when the driver doesn't need

12:51

to be at their absolute 100% best

12:53

and they can win, that's how you

12:55

win 50 grand Prix in your career

12:57

rather than half a dozen, isn't it?

13:00

But what do you make of that

13:02

reverse and what it tells us about

13:04

those two drivers drivers? is feeling a

13:06

little bit more the pressure than the

13:08

pastry. He seems to be very laid-back

13:10

character. He seems to take it all

13:12

in his stride fairly well. If he

13:14

does well, he does well. If he

13:16

doesn't do quite so well, he can

13:19

live with that. And as I say,

13:21

he's able to see the big picture,

13:23

I suppose you might call it. The

13:25

best races you can ever win are

13:27

the slowest races, where there's no risk

13:29

in it, or you pick something up

13:31

from nothing. Was he... Was he, did

13:33

he do wrong not to qualify on

13:35

pool in Saudi? I don't think he

13:38

did wrong. I think Mike did an

13:40

exceptional job. So at the end of

13:42

the day it caught them a little

13:44

bit by surprise. But, you know, Landos

13:46

crash in Q3 in Saudi, to me

13:48

if you look at that, I think

13:50

it looks like a better end decision.

13:52

I mean, obviously you're a qualifying lap,

13:54

you're given a full beans. But it

13:56

looked a bit like it's a little

13:59

bit wide. turning out the corner and

14:01

then he had this, he was going

14:03

to go wide but he didn't want

14:05

to give up the lap so he

14:07

rode the storm and got across the

14:09

curb and you know then it did

14:11

a bit of a tank slap roll

14:13

and then to the... barrier. Would another

14:15

driver have had the reaction to just

14:18

run wide and give the lap up

14:20

or slow down a bit and make

14:22

the lap but know what was going

14:24

to be slow? I'm not sure. It's

14:26

difficult to know whether or not it

14:28

was. I think it was driver error

14:30

duty and decision and I think that's

14:32

pressure. He knows now his teammate is.

14:34

a challenge, an equal challenge at worst.

14:37

So he's got to keep the pressure

14:39

up there. He knows that his teammate

14:41

will benefit from the car developments as

14:43

he, well it's not as though you're

14:45

fighting for area Red Buller and Mercedes,

14:47

knowing that if you get some developments

14:49

they don't. So on, so he, you've

14:51

got to get this commanding position where

14:53

you're leading the team. And I think

14:56

that's not like that at McLaren, about

14:58

50-50. and getting more 50-50 as the

15:00

season goes by. So I'll be interested

15:02

to see again how that unfolds over

15:04

the next few races because it's going

15:06

to come soon to the time where

15:08

McLaren are going to have to make

15:10

a few decisions as to which route

15:12

to follow. Because you have to follow

15:15

somebody, you always will follow somebody, you

15:17

can't take your development path down two

15:19

different routes. So be interesting to see.

15:21

Yeah, and certainly often that one's going

15:23

to ebb and flow, going to be

15:25

a fascinating battle all season. Life is

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17:31

let's get on to our main topic, which

17:33

is looking a little bit more ahead at

17:35

2026. There's been a lot of talk about

17:38

2026 power units. there's an F1 commission meeting

17:40

which is discussing various potential modifications to the

17:42

way the power units can operate. Some of

17:44

you will by the time you listen to

17:47

this know what the outcome of that was

17:49

some of you won't so we won't get

17:51

too much into anticipating that but it's it's

17:54

a really odd situation for Formula One to

17:56

be in isn't it because it's one thing

17:58

to be considering whether the prevailing conditions

18:00

of change and you need a different

18:02

direction for 29 or I mean 2029

18:05

is the earliest they'll change fundamentally but

18:07

talking about the potential power reduction in

18:09

the race of the of the electric

18:11

motor at this stage when you're just

18:14

over half a season out from it.

18:16

seems astonishing given as a piece you've

18:18

been working on explains the numbers have

18:20

been there for all to see in

18:22

terms of the harvesting potential and these

18:25

aren't new problems yet suddenly even the

18:27

fact there's a proposal to do that

18:29

even if it doesn't go through seems

18:31

astonishing. Yeah I think you know it's

18:34

one of these sort of things where

18:36

I think we've betted off more in

18:38

the can chew in the whole package

18:40

and not just the Pew. From my

18:42

point of view you know you you

18:45

end up with X amount of seasons

18:47

four seasons of these regulations that we

18:49

have now. and everybody's got used to

18:51

them understood and this is from a

18:54

car point of view. So I do

18:56

a hundred percent agree that for 2026

18:58

they should have given the car a

19:00

bit of a squeeze. Kept, you know,

19:03

just more or less the regulations as

19:05

they are, but just made the car

19:07

a bit an hour, a bit shorter

19:09

in a wheel base and a bit

19:11

lighter and a few more detailed things

19:14

around to reduce the potential of outwash

19:16

from the front wing end plates. there's

19:18

little things that we've learned during these

19:20

four years because again it's the same

19:23

old deal that teams learn over those

19:25

four years of development direction the FIA

19:27

should learn over those four years as

19:29

to where they've made mistakes so I'm

19:32

I'm not I'm not a big fan

19:34

of opening up another you know box

19:36

of of worms as such because you

19:38

know there will be things wrong with

19:40

these new regulations with all this act

19:43

of error dynamics and so on and

19:45

so forth. Sometimes it can be too

19:47

much. Why do that? Because we are

19:49

talking about a competition here that it

19:52

should be a competition for everybody to

19:54

compete in. I mean a hundred meters

19:56

sprint, you know, it's a competition between

19:58

whatever has eight people running a hundred

20:00

meters from from start to fence. but

20:03

you know one of them is not

20:05

allowed to have an aerodynamic sit-on against

20:07

the others so it's you know you

20:09

want to you want to try and

20:12

make things as challenging as possible but

20:14

it but the same equality for everybody

20:16

and so I think the chassis regulations

20:18

from my point of view have gone

20:21

about wild and they didn't have to

20:23

change everything and the PU is the

20:25

same you know it's it's there It's

20:27

meeting its requirements right now, doing its

20:29

job, they're reliable, everything functions, everything works

20:32

quite happily. So why not just change

20:34

direction by a small percentage, i.e. up

20:36

the output of the earth system, the

20:38

electrical system, by a bet, but not

20:41

three times. That's just, that's just madness.

20:43

because you can't harvest it. I mean

20:45

at the moment we see it you

20:47

can't harvest it you haven't got time

20:50

to to keep the battery fully charged

20:52

to use the battery for a full

20:54

lap and that's what we get clipping

20:56

at the end of the straits the

20:58

drivers complain about. It's all right in

21:01

qualifying because you can charge you can

21:03

do a slow lap, charge your battery

21:05

pack up as best possible and on

21:07

the end lap you can charge the

21:10

battery pack back up ready for the

21:12

next run. In a race you can't

21:14

do that, you know. You put your

21:16

hand up and say, sorry, I'm going

21:19

to do a slow lap here, so

21:21

I'm in charge of my battery chap.

21:23

So don't pass me for a little

21:25

while, because that's not possible. So the

21:27

racing, qualifying and the racing needs to

21:30

be the same. As I say, we

21:32

see too big a time difference between

21:34

the race lap times and the qualifying

21:36

lap times. In reality, you don't see

21:39

that visually. to certainly see a little

21:41

bit of it, but you don't see

21:43

it visually, it's still racing because all

21:45

the cars are going at the more

21:47

or less the same speed, whether they're

21:50

faster or slower. But you don't want

21:52

to get that too big an offset

21:54

because it's a whole different deal then

21:56

for the driver. So I think whatever.

21:59

they do for qualifying needs to be

22:01

the same in the race. We need

22:03

to have some equivalence going across there

22:05

because you'll get this thing well you

22:08

know the car is much better at

22:10

the race strategy than they are at

22:12

qualifying strategy or vice versa. There'll always

22:14

be another reason for something happening and

22:16

we don't want those other reasons for

22:19

something happening. We want the same reason

22:21

all the time so I think they've

22:23

my way of something up as they've

22:25

bitten they can chew. too many changes

22:28

all from the front of the car,

22:30

the back of the car, including the

22:32

PU. And I think that's one of

22:34

those sort of thing. They also, the

22:37

energy lost from not harvesting anything from

22:39

the front axle, which is existing technology,

22:41

you know, it's there to be had.

22:43

It's not like reinventing a wheel. It's

22:45

just crazy, you know, in my article,

22:48

you see it's looking at all the

22:50

numbers and rounding them all up. the

22:52

harvest about 22% of the actual energy

22:54

used to slow the car down during

22:57

the lap. You know, that's about 78%

22:59

throughout the window. And that's a huge

23:01

amount of energy. You know, three times,

23:03

four times what you would you actually

23:05

harvest. So there's a hell of a

23:08

lot you can do if you wanted

23:10

to really have a massive battery pack,

23:12

but you have to change the way

23:14

you're doing it. You can't do it

23:17

the same way. So, wait and see

23:19

what the... what they come up with

23:21

but I'm about disappointed and has changed

23:23

for 2026. It's a strange scenario isn't

23:26

it as well because obviously they they

23:28

set this target because they wanted the

23:30

50-50 or roughly 50-50 split so you'd

23:32

have thought you could just say right

23:34

well just because it's possible to get

23:37

that power doesn't mean that if you

23:39

can't do it you have to a

23:41

little bit like with minimum weight which

23:43

is why it's strange a few years

23:46

ago when they raise the minimum weight

23:48

because some teams are struggling to get

23:50

down to get down to it's like

23:52

well yeah It's not a way that

23:55

you have to be able to be

23:57

on, you know. it's if you can

23:59

go into a race and you can

24:01

run a 350 kilowatts consistently whereas others

24:03

have to just can't and then you

24:06

can argue that well that's just just

24:08

your fault and I know there's concerns

24:10

about the the different speeds and when

24:12

you'll start to get cutting and harvesting

24:15

in it or tune moments etc but

24:17

that was all clear when they wrote

24:19

the rules and the difficult thing is

24:21

that although the FIA will get plenty

24:23

of stick for it as the rule

24:26

makers that pushed for this and the

24:28

thing about for example yeah front axle

24:30

harvesting is an obvious thing to do

24:32

but they're all scared of Audi because

24:35

Audi had experience of it from their

24:37

sports car program but you feel like

24:39

they the manufacturers have pushed for this

24:41

then they've all got a little bit

24:44

scared that someone else might be better

24:46

at something that's needed for it so

24:48

it just seems to go around and

24:50

around in circles and then you've got

24:52

everything that follows with the cars that

24:55

the the the active arrow the narrowing

24:57

of the tires, all these kind of

24:59

things, are just to make the cars

25:01

quicker, to mitigate the problem of the

25:04

engines, the power unit. So it's concerning

25:06

that you've got to this point, and

25:08

all of that math that you've just

25:10

talked about, and you've just talked about,

25:13

and you've just talked about, and you've

25:15

done a good in-depth piece, which by

25:17

the time listen to this should be

25:19

available on the race website, if it's

25:21

not, it will be very soon. very

25:24

very similar numbers so that's what I

25:26

find so curious yeah I mean the

25:28

numbers are there and I think what

25:30

you have to do is start from

25:33

you know put the cart before the

25:35

horse in a way you know you

25:37

have to look at what what your

25:39

harvesting potential is and say that that's

25:41

what we can get on the lap

25:44

how big an energy UK do we

25:46

need to to grab that energy during

25:48

that point how much input can you

25:50

get during that period of time which

25:53

is breaking and that leave you with

25:55

a you know a battery pipe that's

25:57

got the extra amount of charge in

25:59

it ready to be used on the

26:02

lap you know in general the the

26:04

breaking time to the to the usage

26:06

time is probably probably, you know, I

26:08

don't know, it's 15, 20% maybe. So,

26:10

you know, you've got to be able

26:13

to charge the battery up to a

26:15

suitable level to get X out of

26:17

it when you want it. And I

26:19

look at getting X out of it

26:22

as being when you're on full throttle.

26:24

When you're on full throttle, you want

26:26

maximum power. If you've got, you know,

26:28

60% of the lap, you want full

26:31

power. and you've got 15% of the

26:33

lap that you're breaking to recoup that

26:35

energy, the big number is what you

26:37

can recoup during that 15% which is,

26:39

you know, X time and then that

26:42

gives you the size of the energy

26:44

UK you need to charge the battery

26:46

pack up by using it as your

26:48

braking tool and then that gives you

26:51

the battery pack capacity you've got to

26:53

use for when you go down the

26:55

straits. So if that's, as I say,

26:57

if it's four times... the breaking distance,

27:00

then you can only use a quarter

27:02

of the power you've got as a

27:04

maximum power output. You can make these

27:06

numbers work out correctly to make sure

27:08

that the cars all have equivalent power

27:11

output from the battery pack for the

27:13

same power input from the recharge. But

27:15

the minute, the same thing you just

27:17

jump in and say, this is the

27:20

power output we're going to have, it's

27:22

up to sort of how you could

27:24

charge that up, but we're not allowing

27:26

you to do front wheel. charging. You

27:28

know, you can't recoup anything from the

27:31

front wheel. And, you know, at the

27:33

end of the day, ID are coming

27:35

in. And as you say, they're all

27:37

worried about ID's experience with front axle

27:40

recharging. Well, it's quite simple. In the

27:42

regulations, there's lots of stuff you can

27:44

buy from the outside world, allowing people

27:46

to buy a front axle system to

27:49

recut the battery if they want. And

27:51

you can buy it from ID. You

27:53

can buy it from ID. You know,

27:55

it's not your choice. Yeah, there's ways

27:57

and means to do everything, but I

28:00

think, you know, we're reluctant to do

28:02

it with open eyes, I think. very

28:04

concerning situation overall and it's good that

28:06

they are discussing ways to try and

28:09

tackle it because the time has passed

28:11

for framing the rules hasn't it that

28:13

that that ship sailed a few years

28:15

ago but it's just a shame to

28:18

be in this scenario where suddenly problems

28:20

that could have been foreseen are being

28:22

tackled but that's all connected to the

28:24

wider picture isn't it and the questions

28:26

about what the next engine formula might

28:29

be whether you kind of cut back

28:31

on the dependence on the on the

28:33

manufacturers and everyone tries to stand that

28:35

it's on two feet with an engine

28:38

that it feels serves the racing demands.

28:40

There's lots of debates going on there

28:42

that are going to stretch out for

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Louis Missouri. questions if you'd like to

29:58

send in a question for Gary to

30:00

take on. Send it to podcasts at

30:02

the race.com. That's podcast at the hyphen

30:04

race.com and we'll aim to get to

30:07

it as long as it's at least

30:09

tangentially related to technical aspects of Formula

30:11

One, but it can be about anything

30:14

past or present, something we want to

30:16

explain, some question you've never really got

30:18

your head around and Gary will always

30:20

do his best to answer. The first

30:23

question on today's episode comes from Jack

30:25

Brown from Texas. Dirty Air and Outwash

30:27

seems to be an ongoing problem in

30:29

this sport. I was recently re-watching the

30:32

beginning of the 2009 season and the

30:34

new rules for that year basically promised

30:36

the same things that we wanted for

30:38

the 2022 rules and both times the

30:41

teams could add enough downforce and in

30:43

effect create more dirty air. Would there

30:45

be a way to make a maximum

30:47

outwash allowance under a future rule set?

30:50

I'd imagine something similar to the WEC

30:52

Hypercar rules that don't limit design but

30:54

give a maximum downforce and minimum drag

30:56

coefficient. Could the rules be written to

30:59

allow only X amount of air displacement,

31:01

Y distance from the rear of the

31:03

car? I'd imagine it being a final

31:05

CFD test before you're allowed to bolt

31:08

on a new bit of bodywork. Probably

31:10

not going against your CFD allowance time.

31:12

As someone with no CFD experience, is

31:14

this even possible? The rules need to

31:17

identify what out washers and if I...

31:19

can go into a little bit deeper.

31:21

To me, you know, one of the

31:23

things we have at the moment is

31:26

that we hear a lot about correlation.

31:28

The teams correlate in their, you know,

31:30

their simulations to the track, that it's

31:32

very difficult to get that correlation. And

31:35

that's the same with anything. If you're

31:37

relying on CFD, predicting what outwash you've

31:39

got or what dirty area you have

31:41

behind the car, then you're relying on

31:44

a tool to do that as a...

31:46

to what's the reality is. And one

31:48

of the things I will say is

31:50

these cars got bigger and wider and

31:53

outwash has become more important. I think

31:55

one of the things that you do

31:57

need to have more gut feel about

31:59

is the wind tunnels that you use.

32:02

Because the size of the wind tunnel,

32:04

the walls can affect very quickly, the

32:06

numbers you're getting from the wind tunnel

32:08

system. because obviously if the flow around

32:11

the car gets affected by the walls

32:13

it causes it causes changes to the

32:15

car that you're not you know you

32:17

don't understand and that could be one

32:20

of Red Bull's wind tunnel restrictions they

32:22

keep talking about I don't necessarily believe

32:24

it's just the difficult to control the

32:26

temperature because the fact that it's a

32:29

big piece of concrete which I've visited

32:31

on a couple of occasions is actually

32:33

quite good because it keeps the temperature

32:35

stable. One of the things of the

32:38

wind tunnel, you've got to be very

32:40

careful of, is because they're built fairly

32:42

flimsy, let's say, the temperature control in

32:44

it is very difficult to keep the

32:47

temperature stable because the most important thing

32:49

is to be just the variability of

32:51

all the stuff in the wind hole.

32:53

And controlling the temperature in a normal

32:56

conventional modern day wind tunnel is one

32:58

of the biggest hassles, whereas the wind

33:00

tunnel is a big block of concrete,

33:02

which you know, which you know 100

33:05

says. It's a lot easier but I

33:07

wouldn't be surprised if it's just the

33:09

actual cross-sectional area of the wind tunnel

33:11

that's affecting their airflow characteristics outside of

33:14

the car. And I think some of

33:16

the things you can look at with

33:18

the teams is that you know when

33:21

they put the rear brakes on and

33:23

they're you have them outside of the

33:25

front wheels and outside of the rear

33:27

wheels or front of the rear wheels

33:30

but they're always wider than the car

33:32

they're looking at the characteristics outside of

33:34

the car because that flow out there

33:36

is the flow that flow that affects

33:39

the flow on the car. So it's

33:41

difficult. I think to legislate for a

33:43

given measurement of load and say your

33:45

car is illegal because it's 5 kilograms,

33:48

too much down for sure, X, Y,

33:50

Z, too much wake, I think you

33:52

have to legislate for it within the

33:54

design of the car as opposed to

33:57

relying on data that creates more data

33:59

that has to be judged by somebody

34:01

who not quite ever sat in a

34:03

racing car or designed a racing car.

34:06

I think, no, I don't think I'd

34:08

like to get down that route, could

34:10

be done for sure, but I don't

34:12

think I'd like to get on that

34:15

route. There's also the law of unintended

34:17

consequences, isn't there, because 2009 was cited

34:19

in the question. And 2009 was the

34:21

point where Outwash became such a big

34:24

deal, wasn't it? So that geometry became

34:26

so important, and that was a direct

34:28

result of them thinking, all right, having

34:30

the wide front wings, that's the right

34:33

way to go. So you try and

34:35

create one set of conditions of conditions

34:37

to solve a set of conditions to

34:39

solve a solve a problem. and you

34:42

create other ones like who knows let's

34:44

let's say you could come up with

34:46

the perfect mechanism for limiting the amount

34:48

of outwash error you have who knows

34:51

where that would move the airflow to

34:53

and what consequence it could have and

34:55

that that's the thing you always see

34:57

because I think it's important to always

35:00

understand that you can only mitigate this

35:02

stuff. It's still an object moving through

35:04

the air, isn't it? And there's no

35:06

way you can have a clean air

35:09

flow coming off the back of a

35:11

car, ultimately. No, you're making a big

35:13

hole in the air. I mean, if

35:15

you just tip the cross section of

35:18

the car, go back through the car

35:20

from the front to the back and

35:22

just plot its cross-sectional area, that's what's

35:24

being disturbed by the air flow, you

35:27

know, and you got these four big

35:29

wheels that are contributing towards that. by

35:31

a lot. I was really excited about

35:33

to dolphin going through the water. The

35:36

one thing about dolphin is it doesn't

35:38

change ship very quickly and it goes

35:40

through the water very smoothly. Water and

35:42

air are very similar. But a racing

35:45

car if you could see it going

35:47

through water. It would probably make it

35:49

as to what it looks like. like

35:51

so you know you can't do you

35:54

want your racing cars to look like

35:56

a dolphin I mean back in the

35:58

old days way back they did look

36:00

a bit like that but you know

36:03

that time's changed as you were trying

36:05

to create down force from certain areas

36:07

of car and so on so you'll

36:09

always get this turbulence and this cross

36:12

flow effect I suppose you might call

36:14

it not necessarily just outwash that will

36:16

create turbulence for the car flying along

36:18

come along behind it an airplane and

36:21

let's again let an airplane flying directly

36:23

behind another airplane would have a fairly

36:25

turbulent ride. The racing car is just

36:27

the same, you know, your optimising surface

36:30

is to give you lift. In an

36:32

airplane, you're optimising the surface to give

36:34

you downforce in a racing car. But

36:37

those surfaces are all optimised as to

36:39

perfect airflow. So it's a very... I

36:41

don't think the problem will ever be

36:43

solved. I don't think it'll ever have

36:46

a projectile going through air flow at

36:48

speed, at varying speed, in varying conditions.

36:50

that would produce perfect airflow for a

36:52

car following up. Next question comes from

36:55

Joel Brown from British Columbia in Canada.

36:57

I'm sitting here watching the end of

36:59

the Bahrain Grand Prix 1 and realised

37:01

I don't know anything about how liveries

37:04

are applied. Red Bull is reverted to

37:06

its traditional liveries scheme after the one-off

37:08

Japanese Grand Prix scheme and the difference

37:10

in the two schemes is staggering. I'd

37:13

love more details on how liveries are

37:15

designed, applied, cut out or painted and

37:17

how long would it take to sticker

37:19

a sticker the car. I guess this

37:22

is something that's an inconvenience generally to

37:24

someone of your technical persuasion, Gary. Yeah,

37:26

it has an inconvenience. There's a few

37:28

ways to do it now. Obviously, you

37:31

can repint the car, which I don't

37:33

very much of any of the teams

37:35

do, because that adds weight. You can't

37:37

just rub it all down to nothing

37:40

and paint it again. It adds a

37:42

lot of weight. The other one there's

37:44

professional companies around now that actually cover

37:46

the car in a... very thin stretchable

37:49

fablon I suppose you might call it

37:51

I think fablon's there's more manufacturers out

37:53

there than fablon but you know that

37:55

and they specialize in that sort of

37:58

thing and it sort of started an

38:00

indie car back in the day where

38:02

you know an indie car sometimes the

38:04

sponsors were changing from day to day

38:07

and so it was better to cover

38:09

the car with this and then you

38:11

could just peel it off and heat

38:13

it up and peel it off and...

38:16

and put on something new. So I

38:18

imagined from the one team nowadays do

38:20

that. Back in my day, it was

38:22

down to paint and I used to

38:25

hate it whenever somebody would decide to

38:27

do something very strange because you knew

38:29

it would add weight. But the other

38:31

thing is the decals and decal in

38:34

the car. Again, one of the things

38:36

Adrian Newey taught me, was that the

38:38

step that a one millimetre sticker can

38:40

put. onto the rear wing, underneath the

38:43

rear wing, underneath the rear wing flap

38:45

is enough to trip the airflow and

38:47

create turbulence and make the wing network

38:49

correctly. So it's very, you've got to

38:52

be very very careful with all this

38:54

sort of stuff. I mean, redecal in

38:56

the car is a job, there's guys

38:58

on each team that do that. but

39:01

it would be very, it's very specific

39:03

and it's one of these things you

39:05

have to do very carefully or you

39:07

can very easily damage the airflow in

39:10

the car. Some of the surfaces, we

39:12

see that red bulb, most of the

39:14

teams now tape up the body joint

39:16

lines with a very thin, what we

39:19

call helicopter tape, see-through tape. And that

39:21

little ledge is much better than the

39:23

ledge between two pieces of bodywork. And

39:25

also the fact that you don't want

39:28

the bodywork to leak. You don't want

39:30

the... pressures inside the bodywork to get

39:32

outside or vice versa because the underbody

39:34

flow is just as important as the

39:37

overbody flow. But on Earth's surface is

39:39

like the underneath of the rear wing

39:41

flap or the underneath of the rear

39:44

wing or areas that the airflow, the

39:46

velocity of the airflow is right on

39:48

its maximum and struggling really even to

39:50

stay attached. A little trip, you know,

39:53

a millimeter high, can make the wing

39:55

work or not work. So you'll see

39:57

quite a few teams do back to

39:59

back on things to see that their

40:02

spare bits are doing the same job

40:04

as their other bits. You know, conventional

40:06

things to see them do a front

40:08

wing swap. It's not to test a

40:11

new front wing, it's just to test

40:13

the same front wing, it's just to

40:15

test the same front wing and see

40:17

that it's got the same sort of

40:20

down forced forces and that the driver

40:22

feels the same characteristics of big job.

40:24

But I think that most teams would

40:26

not do it with a, as I

40:29

say, with a fablon stretched over the

40:31

top of the body and put in

40:33

place by a very professional company. And

40:35

I know some teams have their own

40:38

proprietary paints application methods. I think Red

40:40

Bull are one of those. I think

40:42

if you're lucky enough to get a

40:44

tour of the Red Bull factory, I

40:47

think the paint shop you see is

40:49

not the one they actually used. There's

40:51

another one that has all their own

40:53

techniques, their own techniques, which is all

40:56

about, as you say, getting... the paint

40:58

effects, but with as little negative impacts

41:00

on the car as possible. And they've

41:02

had to develop their own technology and

41:05

processes and paint tech and that kind

41:07

of thing to do it. So it's

41:09

an interesting topic. We should probably speak

41:11

to a specialist in that at some

41:14

point for the tech podcast, as it's

41:16

a very interesting little area. Right, Greg

41:18

from Melbourne, Australia, says early on in

41:20

the Zazuka race, Max Wustapham was complaining

41:23

about the upshifts in the car. Race

41:25

engineer Jean Piero Lambiazzie then says to

41:27

him the upshift should improve over the

41:29

next two to three laps. Can you

41:32

explain what he would have been feeling

41:34

with the upshifts and why it would

41:36

have been feeling with the upshifts and

41:38

why it would improve over that's always

41:41

talking about the gear shift, isn't he?

41:43

Yeah, I mean the thing about these

41:45

gear shifts are they are, well they're

41:47

zero torque loss I think they call

41:50

it, really, because the car engages one

41:52

gear before it gets out of the

41:54

other one. So basically you don't ever

41:56

have zero torque in the drive shaft.

41:59

there's always a positive torque and that's

42:01

the thing he's talking about. But the

42:03

thing with it is that until the

42:05

gear position is recognised by the system

42:08

to make sure the torque stays on,

42:10

then it won't keep the torque on.

42:12

So you'll get a lumpy gear change

42:14

if the system hasn't... worked itself out

42:17

where each gear actually really is and

42:19

that's why it might take two or

42:21

three laps. You need to go up

42:23

and down the gearbox. You hear them

42:26

talking about doing a gear sink at

42:28

some points in time, gear learning, and

42:30

that's to learn where the gear position

42:32

is. Obviously the engineers can put in

42:35

a set of numbers that's pretty close,

42:37

but the system learns about the position

42:39

of the gear and where to put

42:41

the torque back on to its maximum

42:44

as early as possible. So... Sometimes that

42:46

will take going through that gear set

42:48

of sequences, you know, from second to

42:50

third to third to fourth to fourth

42:53

to fifth, a few times before it

42:55

actually settles in on where the gear

42:57

position is and where the torque, how

43:00

early they can put the torque on.

43:02

They put the torque on X degrees

43:04

before its true position because they know

43:06

it's in that gear. and by putting

43:09

the torque on it like to put

43:11

it something into that gear quicker. So

43:13

it's all a bit of balancing and

43:15

trying to let the learning system do

43:18

as much learning as possible and then

43:20

you optimise as I say that the

43:22

torque reduction in torque when you switch

43:24

it back on again. So it's done

43:27

with little power loss as possible. There's

43:29

always going to be something because to

43:31

get out of gear you have to

43:33

have to have something. but it's again

43:36

gear position learning and torque application is

43:38

the thing that he was complaining about,

43:40

it didn't feel right, give it a

43:42

couple laps and all sort itself out.

43:45

It's interesting technology isn't it? The seamless

43:47

shift gearbox I tend to call it

43:49

as you say zero tool loss. basically,

43:51

and correct me if I'm wrong, it's

43:54

basically two shafts, isn't it? So you'll

43:56

have, you know, have sort of first,

43:58

fifth, seventh, on one, and then the

44:00

even number one's on the other. And

44:03

so two shafts in parallel, two selectors,

44:05

and it's just about minimizing or eliminating

44:07

the transition in the tour between the

44:09

two. Yeah. When the driver calls for,

44:12

let's say, to go from third to

44:14

fourth as two gears. because the new

44:16

ratio is obviously going to make the

44:18

car go faster. There's a speed difference

44:21

from the input from the engine to

44:23

the output of the drive shaft. You've

44:25

got a small window there to allow

44:27

the torque to pick up in the

44:30

new gear before you take the other

44:32

one out of gear. If you get

44:34

that role, you end up the whole

44:36

bag of bits. So you don't want

44:39

to do that. You want to make

44:41

sure that as you call for fourth

44:43

gear, the dog ring as such as

44:45

we call it will go into that

44:48

fourth gear. that small window that allows

44:50

that the two surfaces that drive to

44:52

catch up with each other because they're

44:54

traveling at different speeds slightly and then

44:57

when they caught up with each other

44:59

in a few milliseconds you take third

45:01

year out of mesh and allow for

45:03

to take the drive. So yeah it's

45:06

pretty tricky but again as I say

45:08

there's a sort of a standard set

45:10

of numbers that you would put in

45:12

which is a wide enough window to

45:15

not destroy your gearbox. but not the

45:17

best performance window that you'd want. You

45:19

have to learn itself when it needs

45:21

to happen. And move on to the

45:24

final question now, which is from Andreas

45:26

Bastonchuri for Argentina. Apologies if I've butched

45:28

the pronunciation of your name. Anyone else

45:30

is for that matter. My question is

45:33

about the proposed return to Vton Engine

45:35

Rules in the future. If this happens,

45:37

do you think Rano might come back

45:39

and do you think that information and

45:42

research from before will be useful if

45:44

this change were to happen? It's difficult

45:46

because Renno have come and gone on

45:48

many occasions, I think it's the best

45:51

way of putting it, during my time

45:53

in Formula One. I think it's about

45:55

four or five times have come and

45:57

gone. So, you know, anything can happen.

46:00

Would there information that they had in

46:02

the past help them for the future?

46:04

It's difficult to know because although we

46:07

might say we're going to have a

46:09

V10 engine, it's very unlikely that it

46:11

would be in any way the same

46:13

as what it used to be. I

46:16

don't think when I've ever had the

46:18

best V10 engine. I think what they

46:20

had was the best package. It used

46:22

less fuel, it had less heat rejection,

46:25

many, many, many, positives. but it didn't

46:27

you know it didn't have anything that

46:29

was better than anybody else it didn't

46:31

you know it didn't just have more

46:34

power it was a better compromise for

46:36

a lot of reasons and it was

46:38

at a time when obviously you know

46:40

the team Redville and Renno work well

46:43

together to make it to make it

46:45

work as did some of the other

46:47

teams it rather but it you know

46:49

at the end of the day I

46:52

don't think that carries forward for this

46:54

period of time too far so I

46:56

would be surprised if it would be

46:58

Renno back for you know, 2029 I

47:01

suppose, be it V6, V10, V8, I

47:03

don't really know. It's one of these

47:05

sort of situations I think, we've got

47:07

ourselves a situation, there's an engine in

47:10

the car, it works very well, that

47:12

engine, you know, that normally the turbocharged

47:14

internal combustion engine that we have at

47:16

the minute, probably would be just a

47:19

700 plus horsepower. That's, you know, that's

47:21

quite decent. Go to a twin turbo,

47:23

it would produce more power, you know,

47:25

you know, Why do we get this

47:28

mythical V10 thing? The regulations are set

47:30

at the RPM limit, they control the

47:32

noise. A turbo will always control the

47:34

noise because the turbo acts like a

47:37

big silence for it. It quietens the

47:39

exhaust note. But there's no necessity to

47:41

say we need to change the engine

47:43

from V6 to V8 or V10. You

47:46

can achieve a hell of a lot

47:48

by sticking with what you got and

47:50

making it better. So let's hope to

47:52

keep their eyes open for 2029. and

47:55

that you know we see something different

47:57

but achievable and that's what I'm thinking

47:59

for 2026. We're struggling to see that

48:01

at the minute. The regular is the

48:04

way they're set. I think they're, it's

48:06

too much too soon. Yeah and I

48:08

think it's worth noting as well that

48:10

they've obviously, they're obviously in the process

48:13

of retasking and all of the stuff

48:15

at their very base run over for

48:17

other. other projects and yeah that's been

48:19

obviously quite controversial but I can't really

48:22

see them rolling back on that in

48:24

the immediate future but yeah you're you're

48:26

right they're bound to be back at

48:28

some point aren't they because they always

48:31

do seem to return that's the way

48:33

it works what one interesting little thing

48:35

on the question of older technologies I

48:37

do remember some years ago I was

48:40

doing interview with Agent Eewi at his

48:42

office in Milton Keynes at Redbill at

48:44

the time and this was I mean

48:46

this was in the Blowing diffuseruserusa era

48:49

so it it was probably about 15

48:51

years ago now, it feels like it

48:53

was more recent, but he said that

48:55

one of the first things that he

48:58

asked Renault to do when they realised

49:00

that that basically blown diffusers would become

49:02

an option again was to get Renault

49:04

to dig out all the stuff they'd

49:07

done basically 20 years before because you

49:09

had you had exhaust playing arrow on

49:11

the Williamses he was doing in the

49:13

early 90s. So there's always a little

49:16

bit of knowledge you can take, although

49:18

it's not just take that and put

49:20

it on the next thing, it's just

49:23

those little bits of learning and things

49:25

that can be applied. So I guess

49:27

no knowledge is truly wasted, but whether

49:29

that knowledge is actually carried over and

49:32

stored and accessible and findable and usable

49:34

is, I guess, another question, isn't it?

49:36

Yeah, I mean, I agree with what

49:38

you're saying, you never unlearn something. I

49:41

mean, we had exhaust blown diffusers in

49:43

the 90s with Jordan. You know, fairly

49:45

primitive, but very effective, you know, we

49:47

didn't get into the... to the level

49:50

that the last spate of exhaust lung

49:52

diffusers created which was using the engine

49:54

not compressor you know never never really

49:56

stopping the engine pump and that's where

49:59

you know Sebastian Vettle was so good

50:01

at it but able to go out

50:03

the corner and and keep a throttle

50:05

on allowing it to pump like a

50:08

compressor and keep the diffuser working and

50:10

then you switch on the ignition again

50:12

and you fire up the fuel. So

50:14

there's a lot of technology that's learned

50:17

and put to bed somewhere but as

50:19

I say this far on, as you

50:21

say 15 years ago, whatever it was,

50:23

this far on. a lot of those

50:26

things would be covered because the regulations

50:28

would have changed. It's not just we're

50:30

going to go back 15 years and

50:32

have a V10 engine again. We're going

50:35

to have a new one. That's the

50:37

problem. That's why I'm saying. Don't try

50:39

to reinvent the wheel. Just look at

50:41

what you've got and why you've got

50:44

it and think could I just make

50:46

this a bit better. Yeah, there's a

50:48

lot to be said for that approach.

50:50

Well, thanks very much to everybody for

50:53

those questions. com if you'd like to

50:55

fire a question in it, Gary. And

50:57

also it's a place you can contact

50:59

us if you're in the industry and

51:02

have some specialist skills that we might

51:04

want to interview about. Feel free to

51:06

get in touch because there's lots of

51:08

great stuff going on in terms of

51:11

F1 technology and it can be sometimes

51:13

slightly difficult to dig up people who

51:15

can talk about it. But if you're

51:17

listening to this and think, yeah, that's

51:20

my area. Do drop us a line

51:22

because we might very well like to

51:24

talk to talk to talk to you.

51:26

insight the better. So thanks very much

51:29

for those questions and thanks very much

51:31

of course to you Gary. We'll be

51:33

back in a couple of weeks so

51:35

join us then for more from Gary.