0:00

Tom: Hello, and welcome to The Real Writing Process.

0:03

I'm your host Tom Pepperdine, and this week my guest is the best selling author

0:07

and screenwriter Sarah Pinborough. Sarah has been one of my top 10 wishlist guests since the very beginning, so

0:14

I'm thrilled to have her on the show, especially when she is working on so

0:18

many exciting things at the moment. I've had screenwriters on the show before, I've had authors with adapted works on

0:23

the show before, but having an author who is directly involved in adapting

0:27

one of their most successful books is a fascinating thing to discuss, and

0:31

we really get into it on this episode.

0:33

If you're new to Sarah's writing, then Behind Her Eyes is the book that got

0:36

adapted into the popular Netflix series. Definitely worth a read, and its ending is one of the best you'll ever come across.

0:43

The Death House is a beautiful gothic masterpiece and my personal favourite,

0:48

and her subversive take on Snow White, Cinderella and Sleeping Beauty in the

0:51

Tales from the Kingdom trilogy are a lot of fun, and I feel showcase Sarah's

0:55

personality and humour the most. But basically, she's a great writer who has written in a lot of genres and

1:01

been successful in all of them, and she's really generous with her time

1:05

and talking through her process today. She's also just struck a six book deal with Orion, and we discuss that

1:11

in as much detail as she's allowed. So you'll be seeing and hearing from Sarah a lot in the next few years, and trust

1:17

me when I say that's a very good thing.

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Today though, you get to hear her on this podcast.

1:22

Apologies for my very clear fanboying in places, but if you know Sarah or

1:27

her writing, then you know why I did.

1:30

Anyway, on with the interview. And this week I'm here with Sarah Pinborough.

1:34

Sarah, hello! Sarah: Hello! Tom: My first question as always, what are we drinking?

1:39

Sarah: Today we are drinking the blood of Christ, or otherwise known red wine.

1:47

Tom: A cheeky red, lovely. Well, cheers!

1:49

Sarah: Cheers! What cheeky red are you drinking? Mine is a Malbec.

1:52

Tom: Oh, I've got 19 Crimes. Sarah: Mm.

1:56

Tom: Which is, uh. Sarah: Yes, I think appropriate. Tom: Yeah.

1:59

Yes. Sarah: Yeah. Tom: Um, it's one of those very easy, and it's a blend.

2:03

It's, it's common as muck, but it's so drinkable.

2:06

Sarah: I like it. It also sounds like my dating history.

2:09

. Tom: Yes. Well, that's not the, the topic of conversation, but we may,

2:12

maybe it'll have a, an extra cut.

2:15

Um, So, where am I speaking to you now?

2:18

Is this where you write? Is this just your front room?

2:21

Sarah: This is my sitting room in Milton Keynes, innit.

2:25

And I do, I do have a very big desk over here with a big iMac on it, which never

2:31

gets used for anything other than admin. And I tend to sit on the sofa and write.

2:36

I mean, I used to, before I had the dog, I would write in bed.

2:39

And when I'm in Chiswick, I rented a flat in Chiswick for a couple

2:41

of years as well to try and split my time, which is not working.

2:45

You know, it's really hard to split your time, especially when you've got a dog who I very quickly realized did not like London, quite scared of it.

2:51

But when I'm there, I work in bed again and I'm like, Oh, I remember this.

2:54

And I just get up and get a cup of tea and go back to bed get like a load of

2:58

work done before anyone else woke up. Whereas now the dog has to have stuff, you know?

3:02

Tom: Yeah, Ted's the priority. Sarah: Ted is the priority.

3:05

He's just emerged from his thunder blanket. Bless him.

3:09

Tom: Oh, has it been quite stormy where you are? Sarah: Yeah. Yeah.

3:11

I think there's a bit more coming. Tom: Okay. And, so you're a laptop writer?

3:16

Sarah: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I've got, uh, notebooks, pens.

3:19

I've got a Remarkable, which I really like editing scripts on.

3:23

But yeah, mainly notebooks, pens, paper, laptop, I'm quite into there's

3:28

a called Milanote, and that's quite good for planning, rearranging ideas.

3:34

And I do use that sometimes. So I'm getting more and more online, but I still have to have

3:39

a notebook for each project. Tom: Okay.

3:41

So, do you like to choose a specific notebook or is it just like you have?

3:45

Sarah: Oh, very specific and the more.

3:48

pretentious I get as I get older. It used to be, I would go into Ryman's and spend hours staring at the notebooks.

3:55

And now I go online to the journal shop and I look at their Japanese notebooks.

4:00

I think, Oh, if I buy this Japanese notebook, this book is just going to flow.

4:04

There's going to be no problem whatsoever. And then, you know, there's a mistake on page one.

4:08

I think, okay, that's how we're going to carry on. But yeah, the A4, they have to be A4.

4:13

I can't use small notebooks.

4:16

Tom: Are you special about pens? Do you have special pens?

4:19

Sarah: Yes, I do. I have a Uni ball fine line.

4:22

And I have black and red. Don't mess around with any other colours, just black and red.

4:26

And do little brainstorms with like, either black on the inside, red on

4:30

the outside, then mix it up a bit. Yeah.

4:32

Tom: Yeah, I was going to say with having two colours, because I know Neil

4:36

Gaiman will write one day in one colour, the second day in another colour to

4:40

see progress, but is it more you have black as your main and red for edits?

4:44

Sarah: Not really. I think it just can sometimes separate out ideas on the page.

4:49

So, it's very messy.

4:51

I'm going to actually show you because what really works

4:53

well on a podcast is to show. It's sort of like, if you see there.

4:58

Tom: Okay. It's not linear.

5:00

There's definitely little subsections. Sarah: I'm like, I write like quite small.

5:05

And so there'll be little boxes with writing. And so it just helps me see what I might have written.

5:10

Yeah, And it just looks better than just black.

5:13

It always used to be just black. I don't know when I started in on the red, but that's a new addition.

5:18

Tom: Yeah, and you don't have like reds for more important things.

5:22

It's just, there's too much black on this page?

5:24

Sarah: Yeah, I just like to mix it up a bit. Yeah, yeah.

5:28

Living on the edge, you know me Tom. Tom: And with the starting of a story, that you think of a central character

5:37

and then the world they inhabit, or are you currently exploring worlds?

5:40

Sarah: Hmm. It's very hard to separate, isn't it?

5:43

Often, I often come up with a scenario.

5:47

So like Behind Her Eyes, I had the ending.

5:49

And then I was like, what kind of people would be in this situation?

5:53

And then populated that story.

5:55

And with Insomnia, again, I kind of had the concept of it.

6:02

So I think if you're working with supernatural elements or paranormal

6:05

elements, I think that kind of, that element of it, that twist part of

6:08

it maybe comes first and then you build out the characters from there.

6:14

You know, with A Matter of Blood, I remember thinking I wanted to

6:16

do a retelling of Paradise Lost. And then I was like, who would be the weirdest character to stick in this?

6:21

Okay, a policeman. And then the characters come to life, but they only really come

6:25

to life when I give them a name. Even though I am epically rubbish at names, like there

6:29

are a lot of Wills in my books.

6:32

And there was going to not be a Will in Insomnia, but I realized

6:35

just before I pressed to action it, that find and replace on Will

6:39

in a novel badly, badly wrong.

6:44

So, um, yeah, but I think the two very much go hand in hand for

6:49

most people, story and character. It's hard to define quite what, what comes first.

6:54

I mean, there might be, I guess if I wanted to write something about

6:56

an agoraphobic, then I might come up with the character first, but I

6:59

still think that's almost concept rather than character, isn't it?

7:03

Cause that's a part of that person. It's not who that person is.

7:06

It's something that they deal with rather than who that person is.

7:10

Tom: And with your latest work, we won't go into spoiler details,

7:13

but was it definitely a concept that grabbed you with the latest?

7:16

Sarah: The one I'm just editing now? Tom: Yeah.

7:19

Sarah: Well, I'll tell ya for what happened with that, Tomothy.

7:22

Okay. I was going to write a very different book and I couldn't quite get the

7:28

story, which was quite a problem when you're trying to write a book.

7:31

Tom: Yeah. Sarah: You know, and I was a bit worried that like most people, if I read a

7:35

really great book, I think, Oh God, I want to write a really great book.

7:38

And I'd read a couple of really, really great books. And, and I think I was almost in that arena of trying to mimic.

7:43

You know, I was trying to come up and then I watched a really, really

7:47

bad film called, I think it was a Patricia Highsmith adaptation.

7:52

I think I want to say Dark Water or something like that.

7:55

And it had that very, very beautiful woman who played Marilyn Monroe.

7:59

Tom: Oh, Ana de Armas. Sarah: Yes. And it had...

8:02

Tom: ben Affleck? Sarah: Yes. Tom: Yes.

8:05

Sarah: Truly atrocious, very watchful tripe, but it was utterly tripe.

8:10

And I just then watching that thought, Oh my God, I suddenly

8:14

wanted to write about couples who'd been together a very long time.

8:18

You know, like in their thirties or whatever, but had been

8:20

together since they were 20. And all the boredom and irritation that comes along with that.

8:26

And it's morphed a little bit from there because as I'm editing it, I've changed

8:30

quite a lot of how it's playing out.

8:33

But that was what came there. So I guess really, that was, character came first, maybe, on this one.

8:39

Tom: Yeah, I think, I've definitely seen, sort of stories that had

8:43

a great concept badly executed.

8:45

Hmm. And I can see how that could motivate.

8:48

Sarah: They're my books aren't they? LAUGHING Tom: No, mostly, like, bad films, just cheesy films.

8:54

Sarah: Because they're sold on the concept. Tom: Yeah.

8:57

Sarah: And that's all the studio cares about is the concept. Because that's what they'll do the marketing on and trailer on.

9:03

Yeah. But yeah, this one's been a bit of a journey. Tom: Okay.

9:06

Have you had to do much research for it?

9:08

Sarah: I try not to bother too much with that.

9:11

No, not for this one. I think, no, not really.

9:15

No, it wasn't that kind of book. I had the conceit and there was a little bit of stuff for plot line

9:21

that I've pulled out that I had to research, which was financial stuff.

9:24

And then when I got to do the edit after quite a big gap away from it,

9:28

I looked and I thought, I don't think I want the storyline in it at all,

9:31

which was a bit of a problem because it was the main storyline, Tom.

9:35

Tom: Right. Sarah: Which is now no longer there.

9:37

So I've taken that out and replacing it.

9:41

So yeah, I think this book thankfully isn't coming out till 2025.

9:45

Tom: Okay, well at the moment, she said. Sarah: At the moment.

9:47

Because I don't normally do Big Edits, this is a whole new ball game for me,

9:50

I normally hand in my first draft.

9:53

It gets a little bit like, bring this up, drop that down, and then that's it.

9:57

But this one's the biggest edit I've done.

9:59

Tom: Okay. And is that driven by your need to make it the best story?

10:04

Or are people telling you, no, Sarah? Sarah: Uh, I think there's a bit of both.

10:08

In that while I was writing this book, I also wrote six episodes of

10:13

greenlit television, which quite naively when people said, you're

10:16

writing the whole show yourself? And I was like, yeah, how hard can it be?

10:19

Tom: Very hard. Sarah: It's quite high pressure, you know? So the book wasn't always getting the love it deserved and also I was

10:28

a little in a knot with it because I, I kind of figured that my publisher

10:32

wanted a psychological thriller, which is what was in my contract.

10:36

I am bored out of my tiny mind by psychological thrillers these days.

10:41

And so I think that was coming across. And so when the edit came through, it was still quite a big edit.

10:46

But then I was like, actually, if you strip this out.

10:49

Concentrate on this element. So it's now going to be much more of a gothic novel, which

10:54

I'm much more excited about. It's going to be the closest to a horror novel that I've written in a long time.

10:59

Tom: I was going to say, because you started in horror, you dabbled in fantasy.

11:03

And then yeah, you've done oh, a few police procedurals,

11:06

but they were kind of... Sarah: It was still supernatural.

11:09

Yeah. Tom: Yeah. And, you have your, yeah, sci fi horror roots.

11:14

Because I'm really excited about the Death House adaptation.

11:18

Sarah: Yeah, I'm less excited about doing that. I'm just literally looking at it right now going, bloody hell.

11:22

But I'm really hoping we can get the director that I'm working with now.

11:26

I think he would be great for it. So I'm trying to kind of schmooze the producer and him

11:31

together to get that done. Tom: How is it revisiting your work, for adaptation?

11:37

Sarah: Well, The Death House has been tricky because it's a character story.

11:43

So we've had to instill an engine. And it's quite hard to instill an engine when it's about kids who are all dying.

11:48

So we've had to change quite a few bits. I mean, it's still the key components of it are still there.

11:54

But we've changed quite a bit of it. Um, mainly, with me, I have to be told to stop changing too much, you know?

12:01

Like I get quite into the sort of, Oh, tell it from a

12:04

different angle kind of thing. I'm not very precious with it, with the adapting.

12:08

I mean, with A Matter of Blood in the pilot, it's recognizable as from the book.

12:12

We've glossed it more because, you know, no one wants too dark right now.

12:16

And we've had some characters meeting that don't meet.

12:19

And often if you're, if you're adapting something you wrote.

12:22

So I wrote. Matter of blood in 2009.

12:25

It came out in 2010. You know, I'm many, many years and many books older.

12:31

So I look at it and my eyes were bleeding with some of the

12:33

writing, the overwriting in it. But, um, you see ways you would change the story slightly.

12:38

So you get to do that. And other people have opinions too, you know.

12:42

Tom: I was going to say, because you were talking about, you know, director

12:45

that you're trying to work with. Do you find that quite a collaboration?

12:48

Sarah: I think it really has to be. And so with the insomnia, so Borkur Sigthorsson he's directing

12:54

all six, so it's as much, so it becomes his show as well as mine.

12:58

It's not like they're coming in to do two episodes and buggering off, you know?

13:00

So it was really important that, that we both understood

13:03

the story that was being told. And, we've had some funny moments, we've had some rare moments, but really

13:08

now we're really in tune story wise.

13:12

And he will ring me up and go, like in the car on the way to

13:15

set, and say, I've had an idea. You know how later on Emma says this to so and so well how about if Robert says

13:20

this to so and so then we mirror it? And I'm like yeah brilliant, where am I rewriting that what scene is that?

13:25

So we would love to keep working together, it's that kind of dynamic and the DOP is

13:29

brilliant and the whole team is great. But you have a lot of people with say, because there's

13:33

a lot of money being spent. Tom: Yeah. Sarah: And then the actors, you know, like the stupid things that we had

13:39

to change a name of a character. It wasn't even a character.

13:41

It was just an off scene character, so that they gave me some names

13:44

to pick cause everything has to be cleared, to see if we can use it.

13:47

And they said, Oh, we can't use the name you have. So I just randomly picked one from the list and it transpired that it came in

13:54

the middle of quite a tricky sentence. And Vicky was like, I can't say it.

13:57

There's like a tongue twister. So then they changed it again.

14:00

So things change, as long as the cast are getting the meaning of the

14:03

scene across, I don't care if they tweak a line here or there or change

14:06

it to how it feels more natural. Tom: Oh, that's cool.

14:09

Yeah, because I know some writers can be very, you know, read it as written.

14:14

Sarah: I think it's really arrogant. Because actually, like now, they're all way more in that story than me.

14:21

They're in the heart of filming. I'm doing the odd tweak on a scene here and there or whatever.

14:26

But, Vicky McClure is Emma right now.

14:29

Every day she's on that set for 10 hours being Emma.

14:32

So I'm kind of like, if she thinks Emma might say the line slightly

14:35

differently, I mean go for it. If you think that sounds better on the day, go for it.

14:40

Because sometimes you hear it at the read through, we'd hear things and be like,

14:42

Oh no, that we need to tweak that line. Because written is not the same as spoken.

14:47

Tom: And do you like to visit set and be involved there or is it?

14:52

Sarah: I was supposed to go on Friday. We all went out for dinner Friday night.

14:55

We had such a lovely night. We met at 6 30 and there was a lot of drunken people by half past 12.

15:00

But I was supposed to have gone in that day and it was in a dodgy location

15:04

and a bit cold and I was a bit like, yeah, we can get to the main house.

15:07

I mean, it's really boring. It's really boring.

15:10

And I get the rushes every day. They send me through everything they filmed.

15:13

So I'm kind of doing it from my sofa. That's fine.

15:16

Yeah. But I will go. Tom: I think it's just filming is a lot slower than I think people realize

15:23

because of all the lighting setups and blocking and things like that.

15:27

Sarah: And even when it's all set up, even if they're keeping it set up for

15:29

days, it's just the, we'll do it from this angle and we'll do it from that angle.

15:33

Then we'll do it again from that angle. Then we're going to film a walking down the corridor 10 times.

15:37

I'd be the most rubbish director in the world.

15:39

I'd be like, yeah, it's all right. Let's do the next bit.

15:42

Let's get on. Tom: They're vaguely in frame.

15:46

Sarah: Yeah. Who cares about that hanging microphone.

15:50

Tom: And, yeah, I think moving on from the planning and adapting sort of stuff.

15:55

Actually on the drafting of a manuscript or drafting of a screenplay firsthand.

16:01

You mentioned earlier that, you know, you used to just roll out

16:05

of bed and it was the first thing. Are you very regimented with the times that you write?

16:10

Sarah: No, I used to be a lot more, and I think from anyone who's gone from a full

16:14

time job to writing full time, it's hard to break that cycle for a little while.

16:20

As a rule, I much prefer working early in the morning.

16:24

But at the moment it's like my dog walker friend broke her knee.

16:28

So, so this morning I went out later with my dog and then I went around to see her.

16:31

So by the time I got back to my desk, it was like 10 o'clock before I

16:34

started doing anything, which for me would normally be like, Oh, I've done

16:38

two or two hours work or whatever. So I know that I'll have to work this evening to catch up those hours.

16:44

But no, I, I'm not very regimented and I'm not, you know, it's one of

16:49

these things people always go on about my work ethic, but I'm not even sure

16:51

I have that an amazing work ethic. I think I just work smart.

16:55

When I do work, I like click freedom on for half an hour and think,

16:59

right, I'm going to hammer out 500 words in that half an hour.

17:02

And I rough write first in Scrivener. So I kind of plan, I always have the ending and then I plan some

17:07

tent poles, this for a book. And then obviously those change as you go along, but I try and plan

17:12

out in little brainstormy bubbles, like 10, 000 words at a time maybe.

17:18

So then I'll have that on paper and then I rough write it into Scrivener.

17:22

And then I write it in neat in Word, which is why often I don't need a

17:26

second draft or a third draft because I've done kind of three drafts.

17:29

By putting my hands in, you know, and because my plotting's normally tight,

17:33

it's hard to deconstruct, you know?

17:35

Tom: Yeah. So with all your note, your notepads, you're really mapping out the plot.

17:40

And making sure you're getting, as you say, the tentpoles, the

17:43

beats of the story through. Sarah: Yeah, and then rough writing in Scrivener, I quite like because...

17:48

I don't feel like I'm committed to these words, as it were, so I just write it and

17:51

then I tidy it before it goes into Word. And then it goes into Word, so in the morning I quite like to do the hard

17:58

graft, like the rough writing where you're actually coming out with it

18:01

and then in the afternoon tidy it up. Or often in the afternoon it would then be a script.

18:05

But scripting is different. You have to plan the whole episode out before you, I mean, if you're writing

18:10

it on spec, do what you want, but if someone's paid you to do it, they

18:14

want to see what you're writing first. So you write the whole outline and you know, they pay for that.

18:18

You know, you paid for the Bible and you're paid for the outline and whatever.

18:21

So, yeah. Tom: So, with rough writing is a lot of the previous guests I've had

18:26

tend to refer to the vomit draft. And I guess that's, just to clarify for listeners, that's

18:31

you telling yourself the story. Sarah: No, I'm writing the book.

18:35

Tom: Okay. Sarah: But, you know, it just means that I'm, I don't feel

18:37

like I'm doing the neat draft. Then I copy it over and then I just tidy it . So yeah, it's not, it's

18:43

not really a vomit draft per se. Because I do it in tiny bits and I'm not a vomit draft person.

18:48

I tried it once. Tom: Yeah. Sarah: Just stared at the page and was like, no, can't do that.

18:53

Tom: Okay. So rough is just like you say, you're not precious over the words.

18:56

It's just like, okay, get it down. Sarah: Yeah.

18:59

Tom: Cause, the thing that a few recent guests have said is like,

19:02

you can't edit an empty page. Sarah: Yeah.

19:04

Tom: So I guess it's going on that ethos. Sarah: And it's why I don't do it in Word.

19:09

Tom: Yeah. Sarah: It's basically like some people would write and I used

19:12

to then literally rewrite it.

19:14

But now I just cut and paste it in, turn into Times New Roman and

19:17

then read it through and tidy. I know some people who splurge their first draft in like six weeks, eight weeks, but

19:23

then they spend five months rewriting it.

19:26

I tend to just do it slower than that.

19:28

And I think there's a great, there are a lot worse.

19:31

Prolific is not the best adjective to be described as, as a writer.

19:37

And I see a lot of people on the internet, like, yeah, I'm going

19:40

to write this book in a month. And you're like, well, it's going to be shit.

19:43

I don't care who you are. It's going to be shit. And speed is not, and the word count and all that stuff that

19:48

people really get so excited about. I'm, I now think.

19:51

Let it go. Chill. The thinking time is, is valuable.

19:54

You rush it. You're not thinking about your plot enough.

19:57

Tom: Yeah. Sarah: You know, cause sometimes there's gaps. Those gaps allow you to think, Oh, actually, is that the best way to do that?

20:03

Would it be more fun if this happened or, you know?

20:06

Tom: Because our mutual friend, Tim Lebbon, previous guest

20:10

on the show, The Lebbonator.

20:13

He likes to write his stories to find out how they end.

20:17

Sarah: Yeah, he's a psychopath. Tom: Um, but obviously very different to you.

20:22

So you, before you start your first draft.

20:26

You've plotted very tightly, you know.

20:29

Sarah: No, God no. No, I have the ending.

20:32

Tom: Okay. Sarah: The ending is often exactly how it will be in the book.

20:35

I have the ending. But I haven't tightly plotted, no.

20:38

I'll have a rough kind of like maybe ten points that, then turns maybe.

20:43

But they'll change. They're not like, I think Claire McIntosh, she has a proper board of

20:47

cards with every chapter pretty much summarized before she starts to write.

20:52

That's not happening in my world. I've got the ending, you know, and then I kind of slowly build it from there.

20:58

But as I go. Tom: So when you're drafting out your rough in Scrivener

21:03

er and then moving into Word. In a writing session, if you've got these 10 story beats, are you writing

21:09

to the first story beat and sort of... Sarah: Yeah, and then often it will change or I'll write to the end of the first act.

21:15

I might think, okay, we're going to get to the bit where she's definitely

21:18

going to start investigating this. And then the middle act is always the worst bit.

21:23

That that's always the messiest. And then the last bit, you kind of know where you're headed.

21:28

So like I've currently in my redraft, I know that I've probably got

21:31

enough plotting till Friday, and then I'm gonna have to think, okay,

21:34

so what do we need to get to next?

21:37

What's the next bit we really need to figure out and just

21:40

see where it feels right. And yeah.

21:42

Tom: And when you've got these thinking time periods, do you have any

21:47

rituals, any exercises that you do that help with the problem solving?

21:50

Is it like, right, Ted, we're going to have... a very long walk today.

21:54

Sarah: The lunchtime walks, to be fair.

21:57

Like morning walks, uh, sort of much more about the business

22:00

of the dog walk, as it were. Uh, the lunchtime walks, if it's the day's nice and it's quiet in the park.

22:07

I don't like it if it's too busy, especially since that dog took me down.

22:09

I'm a bit dog wary, you know, so I avoid it in the early morning and then I go

22:12

about 11 with him for a second one. Then there's a lot more thinking time.

22:16

But no, I don't really have any rituals. And like everybody, it's when you're lying in bed at night and the light's

22:21

off and your brain starts going tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick.

22:23

You know, and then bits come, but sometimes it's just like watching telly.

22:27

Put something on the telly and then you think, Oh yeah, I know what I'm gonna do there.

22:31

Yeah. Tom: And if you are thinking at night, do you have a notebook by the bed?

22:36

Sarah: No, no, I just email myself.

22:39

Tom: Okay. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, grab my phone.

22:42

Yeah. Tom: Nice. And, yeah. So you've mentioned that you're not someone who word counts.

22:47

But you also said how you went from, you know, day job to full time

22:51

writer and the structure of a day. Do you have working hours?

22:56

Sarah: No, no, because I, I work all the time.

23:00

And it's, my hardest thing is not working.

23:03

Mainly because, I mean, it's ludicrous because without sounding

23:07

like a twat, I'm not broke now.

23:10

I could quit working. But you still worry, like, am I going to earn any money next year?

23:14

For some reason, you just always have that. How much money is enough money?

23:17

And so then I find myself just saying yes to loads of things

23:19

and also exciting things. You get new deal, you get new TV stuff, film stuff, exciting.

23:24

And then you suddenly have gone from worrying about having no work to

23:28

having work coming out of your ears. And then it's, it's more about portioning up the day.

23:33

And I think it was Mark Chadbourn years ago, I saw something on his Facebook.

23:38

And he does a bit of screenwriting, and his thing was always like,

23:40

do the words on the novel first. And I get it now because screenwriting is all consuming.

23:46

Because it's not like if you're doing 10 pages on a draft, so let's say an

23:51

episode of TV, 55 pages, so actually 10 pages, you're quite a way through the

23:56

draft, you're kind of chasing the end.

23:58

Whereas in a book, you're more like, okay, I've done 10, 000 words, oh,

24:02

look, there's still 80, 000 words to go.

24:05

You're slower, so it's much easier to push the book to one side and work

24:09

on the scripts, but actually if you do an hour or so on the book every

24:12

morning, your book will progress. But scripts, scripts take as long as a book, but they're just more intensive.

24:18

Tom: Yeah. Just with scripts. Cause I know seems archaic now, commercial television with commercial breaks.

24:24

Sarah: Cause we had to write to the ad break, right?

24:27

Tom: Yeah. Is that something that you've come across?

24:29

I know you've written for the BBC and you've written for streamers.

24:33

Sarah: It's not really a thing anymore. Maybe on ITV, but that's about it.

24:37

I've never had to write to the ad break. But you still, I mean, you want hooks within the episode, obviously,

24:43

but it's a lot more freeing now.

24:45

Because if you're writing a Netflix show, you can have one episode, it's

24:48

an hour, one episode is 45 minutes. I mean, they tend to like more to come in at a certain amount, but yeah.

24:54

God, that would be painful having to write a certain amount of minutes per quarter

24:59

of an episode and have a hook at each. Yeah, no, fuck that shit.

25:02

I'll stick to this.

25:05

(laughs) Tom: And I suppose the stuff that you've had adapted.

25:09

I mean, it's probably a sort of a bigger challenge with the Death House, because

25:12

that's a TV series as well, isn't it?

25:14

Sarah: No, movie. Movie. Tom: Oh, it is a movie. Okay, okay, that makes sense.

25:18

Because when you've got the thrillers, there are these hooks, like your

25:23

ten tentpoles throughout the story. So, breaking those down into episodes.

25:27

Sarah: Although they change, like, I mean, Insomnia is quite different

25:30

from the book in a lot of ways because you're visualizing way.

25:34

I mean, it's hard. The death house has been really hard to adapt because it

25:38

doesn't have plot points per se.

25:40

Tom: Yeah. Sarah: Stuff happens. I mean, obviously, we've had to change some bits, but some of

25:44

the same stuff obviously happens. But we've instilled more engine in there and more hope maybe and what.

25:50

Because otherwise, you're literally just, there's no twists, there's no turns, it's

25:55

just quite a sad love story, you know?

25:57

Like, yeah, I've killed that little boy so many times now, I don't know.

26:03

Tom: Oh, is it John Green? Does he write those sort of sick novels?

26:08

Sarah: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tom: Yeah. You know, just, oh, whatcha doing today?

26:11

Killing another child? Sarah: Killing, yeah, another child dying in my book.

26:15

Tom: That's it. And this is where we drink wine.

26:18

There we go. Chin chin. Yeah. Okay. So the work life balance at the moment, out of kilter, but do you, when you

26:26

finish a story, do you then take a break?

26:29

Or I suppose at the moment you've kind of got so many projects on the go.

26:33

Sarah: There's overlaps, so one ends, something else comes up.

26:36

Um, no, I should do though, because a friend of mine who's on telly,

26:40

he took six months off recently and said it was the best thing he did.

26:44

Because otherwise the projects just keep coming and mounting up.

26:48

So, yeah, I mean, I was never very good when, when I was just writing

26:52

books, if I finished a book, I was never really very, very good until I

26:56

was in a new book in my head space.

26:58

But now I do think it would be quite nice to just have a couple

27:01

of months off, but I don't see that happening in the foreseeable.

27:04

I mean, I'm going on holiday at the end of October for 10 days,

27:07

so that's going to be quite nice. But, um, as a rule...

27:10

And also there's a bit of make hay while the sun shines, isn't there?

27:13

You know, and, you know, next year when Insomnia comes out, hopefully that'll

27:17

profile boost me for the screenwriting.

27:20

You know, it already has to a certain extent.

27:22

I'm not out of work. And I'm just doing this new book deal, which I can't talk about yet.

27:28

So that... When does this, when do we put this out?

27:32

Tom: I can put it out whenever I want. Sarah: Oh, okay, cool.

27:35

Ah, okay, so I've just done this great new deal with Orion and Galant.

27:39

Tom: Okay. Sarah: Yeah, so that's me kind of tied up for the next few years.

27:44

Tom: So a multi book deal? Sarah: It was seven figures.

27:47

Tom: Woah. So there's going to be just one book, but really fucking good.

27:53

Sarah: Yeah. Can you imagine? Yeah, no. They've read my book, that's never going to happen.

27:58

Well, actually what was really great. They did this amazing presentation to me.

28:02

It was amazing with this big booklet and the whole of Orion

28:07

was there, like from the MD down.

28:09

And like how they wanted me to come back, and so some of it is, I'm doing a

28:14

prequel and a sequel to the fairy tales. Tom: Oh, nice.

28:18

Sarah: Um, so what's really good about it is that I can basically write what I want.

28:23

So if I want to write a crime novel, it'll come out with Orion.

28:26

If I want to write a fantasy novel, it'll come out with Gollancz.

28:29

So I've got to write two new novels and these prequel, sequel, fairytale.

28:35

So that would be... Yes! Yeah. Tom: For the listeners, I'm holding Tales from the Kingdom,

28:43

which is all three in hardback. Sarah: Yeah.

28:46

Tom: Yeah, I've got, this is, this is a rare one. Sarah: And they are also publishing that.

28:50

Tom: Okay. Sarah: Yeah. Tom: So,

28:54

At this moment I have redacted the title that I just said, which

28:58

will become clear in a moment. I've left the rest of the conversation though, because it's

29:02

Christmas and I thought it'd be fun. Sarah: Yes.

29:05

Tom: so yeah, cause this is, is it a novella?

29:07

It's not very long. Sarah: It's about 70, 000 words.

29:09

Tom: Okay. Yeah. Sarah: Yeah. It was a limited edition.

29:13

Tom: Yeah. I've got edition 284.

29:17

Sarah: Oh, thank you. Tom: That's numbered. Sarah: So yeah, I was glad that they're going to take that out,

29:19

because also that's a book I don't actually have to write, sorry.

29:24

Yes. Um, yeah, we might need to edit that bit out, because I'm not sure that

29:28

they're going to announce that they're publishing that book that came out.

29:31

Tom: Yeah, no, no, that's fine. You've got lots of, projects on at the moment.

29:35

Is there any point where you get critical self doubt?

29:38

Because obviously you've had massive success. Sarah: I wouldn't say imposter syndrome per se, because I don't feel like I've

29:44

had that level of success, really. And I feel also I've worked really hard for it, you know?

29:50

Like my new tricks was 10 years ago, my episode of new tricks on TV.

29:53

So it's not like I've not been building my way up to, and I know

29:57

that luck and whatever comes into it. And, you know, I know a lot of great screenwriters who haven't got their

30:02

own shows and that's not that they couldn't have their, you know, like,

30:05

I know it's there are elements. But, yeah, I constantly have moments of, Oh God.

30:10

I don't worry about reviews per se.

30:13

Like behind her eyes TV show got such bad reviews to start with.

30:17

And then they realized that millions and millions and millions and

30:19

millions of people were watching it. And then the reviews started to change, you know, and it's so subjective.

30:25

I was going on Twitter and saying to the producer, look at the

30:27

hashtag then tell me whether you're worried about that review or not.

30:31

And she was like, Oh my God. I was like, yeah, reviewers are, their job is to be snarky or whatever.

30:36

You know, And I think if I'm happy with something, like everything I've seen of

30:39

Insomnia so far, I'm really happy with.

30:42

They've got a great cast, great director, great DOP, great producers.

30:45

And if we're happy with it, then that's all that matters to me.

30:49

But yeah, I do have the fear. I always have had a fear of failure and being shit.

30:52

But then I don't ever think I'm great. I'm quite happy being a grafter, you know, I think, I don't

30:58

think I'm an amazing writer. I think I'm a good writer, solid writer.

31:03

I don't think I'm anything extra special, but I think I'm very

31:05

good at the business side of it. And I understand how much work is involved.

31:09

And I never skimp on the work.

31:12

And I'm never caught up with being an author, which so many people, you know,

31:16

you look at the internet's full of people who are super keen to, you know,

31:19

be a brand or be the next big thing.

31:22

And I'm like, you know what? You're wasting all your time on the internet.

31:24

Just go and write a good book. Cause actually it's the only way it's going to happen.

31:28

Twitter's not going to make you famous or get you a book deal or whatever.

31:31

A good book will get you a book deal, you know, a good script will get

31:34

you an agent and that kind of stuff.

31:37

Tom: And how much weight and importance do you put on how good your relationship

31:41

is with your editor and how good your relationship is with your agent?

31:47

Sarah: Oh, massively, massively.

31:49

I mean, I've fired agents, I've fired editors. And you know, I've been dropped.

31:54

I think your relationship with publishing across the board is important.

31:59

Don't be a dick. You know, I think it's a business.

32:01

You have to be professional. My agent now I've had Veronique since 2008, my UK agent.

32:08

Yeah. I've gone through three before her. Yeah. I'm always, I'm always telling people to fire their agents if they're not happy,

32:13

you know, it's a business relationship. It's like, you're not, they're not your mate.

32:16

I mean, Veronique is now my friend, and I've got a great agent in New York.

32:19

I've got a manager in LA. I've got a screenwriting agent.

32:21

My agent, Sean has been my screenwriting agent here at United for 10 years more.

32:26

So once you get the right people, it's good, but they

32:29

will also keep you grounded. Tom: Yeah.

32:32

What do you think is important? What's a key part of those relationships?

32:35

Like you say, it's like keeping you grounded. Is it that they see what the story is and

32:40

It's not so Sarah: much that.

32:42

They have to be good at the business. Like Veronique, I trust her with my stories, but she doesn't edit anything.

32:49

You know, we kind of had chat about it, we'll pitch some ideas,

32:52

but she's good at the business. That's her job, is the business.

32:55

And my screenwriting agent, Sean, I mean, he's, he's, he's so funny.

32:59

We're doing a deal at the moment. And I'll be like, are we going to take that?

33:02

We're going to take that aren't we? And he's like, no, they can pay more on this.

33:05

They can pay more on that. And, you know, that's his part of the deal, but we're great friends now.

33:09

And he will, if he reads a pilot or whatever I've written and he always

33:12

reads quick, which is to be important. They've got to read fast.

33:16

They've got to answer your calls. That kind of stuff.

33:18

Like when I hear people say, Oh, I sent my agent my book three

33:20

months ago, I'm like fire him. What if I don't get another agent?

33:23

Well, you don't really have one, do you? Because you've been waiting three months.

33:27

You know that's not an agent. My mom would have read it quicker.

33:31

Tom: And so also, I guess, when you've had sort of relationships that long.

33:35

Because you've, you've written horror, you've written fantasy, you've

33:37

written psychological thrillers. Moving through genres, having someone who's embracing your,

33:45

your evolution of writing. And being like, okay, well, we can market this like this and we can

33:49

market this, you know, something else. Are they happy with your constant changes or?

33:55

Sarah: Well, I mean, I haven't changed that much of late.

33:57

And I think, I would never advise anyone to try and do too many genres at once.

34:02

You know, at the moment, if they're starting out. I think it's very tricky.

34:05

Like it was tricky for my publishers when I was starting out and you're

34:08

writing a historical horror, then you're writing something else.

34:11

And you know, it's hard. And especially if you're not getting paid huge amounts in advance.

34:15

You're not going to get a push. You know, you're not going to have that breakthrough book where suddenly

34:19

you can write whatever you want or whatever, like the, the woman who

34:22

wrote Babel and then Yellowface. You know, very different books, but both massive bestsellers, so who cares, she

34:27

can write whatever she wants, you know? But if you're just plodding along in the kind of mid list, it's not

34:31

the easiest for your publisher. But now, you know, and this is going to sound awful, but I walked out of

34:38

a writer's room a couple of years ago because I thought it was shit.

34:41

I didn't like it. And it was paying me 10 grand a week.

34:44

For three hours a day, five, four hours a day.

34:48

And I walked out of it. And everyone was like, how could you walk out?

34:51

And I just didn't like it. It's never going to get made, the people running it are shit.

34:55

You know, like I was peak menopause. There was no messing around there.

34:59

And as my agent put it at the time, there is a power in having fuck off money.

35:04

So if you've got enough money that you can say, fuck off, I don't want to do that.

35:07

You then get your choices. But you just have to be aware of the outcome of your choices.

35:11

So I could have, until I did this new deal, I could have said, I don't want

35:15

to write any more psych thrillers. I want to write a fantasy novel.

35:17

Now I might have only got paid 10 grand for that fantasy novel, but the choice

35:21

would have been mine to write it. I just need to be aware of the consequences of that choice

35:25

you know, kind of thing. So now only really want to write what I want to write from now

35:30

on in, you know, which is where the new deal is so liberating.

35:34

Because I can literally write whatever I want to write, you know, so that's great.

35:39

And it's what I love about TV and screenwriting.

35:41

You know, the guy who wrote The Hangover also wrote Chernobyl.

35:45

So like, if I say to my manager, I fancy writing a sci fi, they're

35:48

not going to say, Oh no, your last show was a psych thriller.

35:51

Which is the opposite of publishing. Tom: Well, it's Christopher nolan writing a Batman movie and then going,

35:57

all right, I'm going to do a story on the guy who invented the atomic bomb.

36:01

Sarah: Yeah, exactly. Tom: And also Greta Gerwig given free reign to write Barbie,

36:06

how she wanted to write it. Sarah: Yeah, it's that kind of, you know, you can jump around genres much more

36:10

in screenwriting than you can in books. So, for new people, I would always advise pick a lane.

36:15

Because you'll confuse editors as well. I think if they're getting one thing on submission, then they're getting

36:19

another thing that's so different. They'll be a bit like, what does this person really want to do?

36:23

You know, what, what are we selling here? But I think for me, it was in the pandemic actually, was before I'd sold insomnia and

36:30

I was pitching lots of different ideas. And I remember just thinking when I started out in this business,

36:36

the plan was to own my own home. Because I think that's important and I don't have a big house.

36:41

I've got three beds semi, you know, Milton Keynes. So I have no mortgage, have some money in the bank and then write whatever you want.

36:47

And it dawned on me as I was pitching Psych Thriller after Psych Thriller

36:51

and they were saying, this isn't a Psych Thriller, this is a horror.

36:53

I thought I'm done with writing those kind of books anymore.

36:57

And that was a real, I want to just write what I want to write

36:59

and see how that plays out for me.

37:02

But then I'm in a very, very lucky position to be able to do that.

37:05

And it might backfire on me, but financially I'm all right.

37:08

So it's not that, you know, like I'm not worrying about that side of it.

37:12

Tom: You can take the risk. Sarah: Yeah, exactly.

37:15

Exactly. Tom: And... We touched on it earlier, but I haven't really probed you on it, your

37:19

editing, and how it's very light.

37:22

You have your first draft, and there may be some notes, but you're

37:26

currently writing a story where there's a much bigger edit where

37:30

you're taking out the main storyline. Are you someone who likes to work in writing a complete draft or is it just

37:37

tinker on the scenes and just go, no, like this is the problem area or how

37:41

do you break it apart for a redraft? Sarah: Well, you know, you've always got your big headline notes and then

37:47

there'll be more detailed notes. And I often think I'll work through each headline note and

37:52

then go back to the beginning. But I end up working on them all at once as you go through,

37:56

cause it just seems easier. But with this one, because also I've got the notes from the American publisher, as

38:01

well as the notes from the UK publisher. So they've kind of bandied their notes together.

38:05

But then when I decided to change the whole tone of it by

38:08

ripping out this whole storyline. And then I emailed them and they all went, that sounds great.

38:13

And I thought, fuck, now I've got to do it.

38:17

And it is a massive rewrite. But it's a lot faster because I know the story so well but it's

38:22

been a learning curve for me. And I don't overly want to do it again.

38:26

I need to be more respectful of giving books the time they deserve.

38:30

I didn't enjoy writing it, the first time.

38:32

And I think that's, that's probably part of the problem.

38:35

So now I am enjoying writing it because it's creepy quite creepy.

38:40

Tom: It's just, yeah, getting that gothic edge to it.

38:43

And also, you know, the nights are drawing in, it's dark and stormy out.

38:47

Sarah: Although it's like baking hot still, isn't it?

38:49

It's like, oh my God, it's still summer out there.

38:52

Climate change. Tom: Yeah. I was literally just about to say that.

38:56

Uh, yes, exactly. And once it's actually finished, obviously, you've kind of got

39:01

several projects on the go.

39:03

When you've final sign off on the publishers or when you get a proof

39:07

copy through and you're like, Oh, I'm not doing any major edits anymore.

39:11

Is it just a sense of relief of like, okay, that's done on to the next thing?

39:14

Sarah: Yeah. Tom: Oh, yeah? Cause the other thing is like, sometimes people have a sense of grief of they

39:18

spent so long with these characters and now they're not going to spend

39:21

time with those characters anymore. Sarah: I think maybe with the trilogies.

39:25

I think maybe fantasy people who've written three big novels.

39:27

I mean, I had it with A Matter of Blood a little bit, and especially

39:30

with the Nowhere Chronicles, which was children's YA trilogy.

39:33

I really love those characters. But I was also very glad to be done.

39:39

Especially when those early days when you're writing.

39:42

And if the first book of a trilogy doesn't land, then you sell less of

39:45

the second and even fewer of the third. And so you know your book's coming out to nothing.

39:49

So it's quite wearying. But no, not on an ordinary novel, I don't ever.

39:54

I mean, so with insomnia, so my, my main character in my

39:58

current book is called Emily. Because I promised someone I would name after their child.

40:02

And even after falling out with a friend, I still feel I

40:04

need to stick to the promise. And in Insomnia, the character's Emma.

40:08

And of course I've been working on Insomnia for a very long time between

40:12

the book, the book edits, the screen, you know, like it's been, and I

40:16

keep writing Emma instead of Emily. Like, no!

40:20

Leave me alone. Haha.

40:22

Tom: Just shorten it to Em. Everyone calls her Em.

40:25

Sarah: Everyone's calling her Em in the show. She's always Em.

40:27

Tom: Yeah, it's fine. Now I've got my final two questions.

40:30

It's my belief that writers continue to grow and develop their writing

40:34

with every story they write. Was there anything particular about the last project you finished that

40:41

you felt that you learned from that you're now using on future projects?

40:45

Sarah: Obviously the screenwriting, writing the whole show has been a massive

40:48

learning curve in so many regards. And that has fed into my editing of the book and how I'm approaching,

40:54

approaching future projects. Um, book wise?

40:57

It's just interrogating every scene. Just interrogating it.

41:01

And just seeing what, what is the scene doing? How many things is it doing?

41:04

Is it doing too many things? What is the one thing the scene should be doing?

41:07

How honest is the character being here?

41:09

Or are they doing something that I just want them to do, rather

41:12

than what this character would do?

41:14

You know, like, would she do this or do I just need her to do that?

41:18

So if I need that to happen, how can I get to that space without her being untrue?

41:22

I shared some, quite interesting. I had lunch with a book editor last week and she'd never

41:27

seen a TV pitch, like a Bible.

41:30

So I said, well, I've got a couple that are of mine that for things

41:33

that we never got made, that I've done with various companies.

41:35

So I sent them to her. And she said, it's amazing how much they focus on character so

41:40

intently and plot so granularly.

41:43

She said, which we never do in publishing.

41:46

So it's really interesting we never do that. We never, in our pitching, you know, we go with a hook.

41:51

Whereas actually you really get, it's much harder to hide flaws on a

41:56

script than it is in a book because it's such a shorter piece of work.

42:00

And structure is everything. So I think structure is maybe something I've learned to carry over.

42:05

Like even with the Death House after finishing Insomnia, I was like, yeah,

42:09

still got a ticking clock problem. And I thought we're trying to get the ticking clock from the kids and

42:13

it's not going to come from that. We've got to get it from somewhere else so then it's suddenly clearer.

42:17

But, um, yeah, the whole thing, the TV stuff is, I think what

42:20

I'm loving about it is with novel writing, I'm quite jaded with it.

42:24

I've written 28 books, all published.

42:26

They're not, you know, like, I may not be the best writer in the world,

42:29

but I know how to write a book. You know, I understand my process.

42:32

Whereas with screenwriting, I'm learning all the time, you know?

42:35

Learning from everybody around me. I'm just absorbing it all.

42:38

So that's, that I think is hopefully going to help me in the future.

42:41

Tom: it's great. It's it's very different from a lot of my guests that I've had before because not

42:46

many have done screenwriting and certainly not in big adaptions of their own work.

42:50

So it's really nice to get that take.

42:53

My final question. And it's been lovely having you on, Sarah.

42:57

And I'm still finishing my wine. Sarah: I'm now on my tea.

43:00

I was talking too much. Tom: Is there one piece of advice?

43:05

That you've had either you've read or you got told that you find really

43:11

has helped you with your writing that when you do get stuck, there's that

43:15

one thing that you return to that resonates with the way that you write?

43:19

Sarah: I do think, and it's boring, but I do think prolific is not the

43:23

best adjective for a writer is key.

43:26

Because I think, and it's the damage of social media, it's very easy to get

43:30

caught up in what other people are doing.

43:33

And actually your own track is the only thing that's important.

43:36

If someone else has a great success, doesn't stop you having great success.

43:39

If someone else fails, that doesn't mean you're going to fail.

43:41

And actually, people saying, Oh, I've written 5, 000 words

43:45

today, doesn't help anybody. You know, one great book is better than five shit ones.

43:49

Tom: Yeah. And a story can be epic and really, examining the human

43:54

condition in 300 pages. It doesn't need to be a thousand.

43:58

Sarah: Yeah. Totally. And you know, there's a paper shortage.

44:00

Keep your book short. Tom: We're all busy people. We're all busy.

44:03

We don't wanna read . Sarah: Yeah. And you'll sell more foreign rights with the 75,000 word book than

44:07

you'll sell with a hundred thousand. That's my final piece of advice.

44:10

Tom: Okay. Yeah. Keep it, keep it short.

44:13

Sarah: Look at me. Like everyone else is coming up probably with like deeper, meaningful things.

44:16

Mine's like practical. Tom: No, no, no, no.

44:18

It's all right. No, that's great. And, uh, well, that's it.

44:21

Well, thank you very much, Sarah. Sarah: Well, thank you.

44:24

Sorry to waffle at you so much. Tom: I mean, that's what a podcast is, Sarah.

44:30

All right. Thanks. Sarah: All righty. Tom: And that was the lovely Sarah Pinborough.

44:34

Insomnia is out in paperback now.

44:37

If you want to pick up a copy before you see the show.

44:39

I know some people like to do that so feel free.

44:42

Looking back on this interview, it's quite noticeable to me that

44:45

it's the only one where I don't make a passing reference to my wife.

44:48

My wife Becky also noticed this and she finds it hilarious.

44:52

We all get crushes on people. Mine is now just recorded and published worldwide.

44:56

It's fine. Um, so if you'd like to follow Sarah's social media, then she's on

45:01

Instagram and threads under the handle @sarahpinboroughbooks uh, where you can

45:06

hear a lot more about her books, views on writing, and the industry, and see

45:10

pictures of her dog Ted, who's beautiful.

45:13

Also, I'd like to give an apology on another delayed episode.

45:17

I was aiming for a pre Christmas release, but I got ill again.

45:22

Fortunately, I seem to have survived 2023 and got a few treatment

45:26

options and lifestyle changes to make 2024 a healthier one.

45:30

There will also be some great episodes to look forward to too.

45:34

I've been blessed with some great guest submissions recently and I'm really

45:37

looking forward to chatting to some amazing writers about their process.

45:40

So, I wish you all well. Uh, congratulations for surviving 2023, and let's hope 2024 is a good one.

45:48

I'll speak to you soon, and until then, keep writing until the world ends.