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Hello and welcome to The Real Writing Process.

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I'm your host, Tom Pepperdine. And this week, my guest is the British horror and dark

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fantasy writer, tim Lebbon. I'm so happy to have Tim on as a guest.

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Firstly, because he's a lovely gent, lovely to talk to and

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his books are a great read. But also he has written so many of my favorite characters in an

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epic career of tie-in novels. He's written Hellboy.

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He's written Ripley in Alien: Out of the Shadows.

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He's written Malcolm Reynolds in Firefly: Generations.

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He's also written in the Star Wars universe and done the film

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novelizations to 30 Days of Night and Kong: Skull Island.

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And if that is not all, his original stories have also been turned into films.

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The Silence became a Netflix film, starring Stanley Tucci, and Pay the Ghost

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was a film with Nicholas frickin Cage. It was an honor to pick his brain and learn about his writing process, but

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also an arguably more importantly, what his favorite beverage is.

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Dear audience, may I present my interview with Mr.

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Timothy Lebbon. Hello.

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And I'm pleased to say that this week I am joined by Tim Lebbon.

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Tim, hello! Hi Tom. Great to be here.

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Hello. Thank you. I'm glad that you are here too.

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And as always, my first question is what are we drinking?

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Well, I'm halfway through a mug of really good Colombian coffee at the moment.

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I was toying with the idea of a beer, but it's still late afternoon.

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So coffee is the way to go. And it's Columbian because my son's on the way to Columbia in three weeks time.

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Oh, wow. To do traveling. So I'm yeah.

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Okay. Is coffee, your regular writing drink?

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Yes, I'm a bit of a coffee fiend.

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I know lots of writers are tea first thing in the morning, but then on

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coffee late morning, probably only two or three cups a day, to be honest.

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But I've got a nice coffee machine and if I go a day without coffee, I'm climbing

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the walls, which is probably not a great thing health wise, but, you know,

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uh, but it's a good working drink, I guess it keeps you focused with the caffeine.

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I guess so. Yeah. I'm not conscious that it gives me a hit, but it obviously does.

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Like I say, climb the walls. If I don't have one before mid-afternoon, I'm getting antsy and

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I'm also, I can also have a coffee, 11 o'clock and then go to bed.

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I know some people who won't drink their coffee past midday

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because they can't sleep. It never affects me. Okay.

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And where I'm talking to you now, is this your writing spot?

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Is this your writing desk? Yeah, I'm in my office at home.

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Excellent. And how long have you had a dedicated writing space?

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I'm very lucky, actually. We live in a three bed semi in a nice little village in South Wales, but

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it's, it's got an extra room downstairs.

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Like they, I think when we bought the house it was

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advertised as the dining room. And it was a while, and then it became half an office to me and

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half the playroom for my daughter when she was born 23 years ago.

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But since I've been writing full-time, which is a little over

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15 years, it's been it's my room.

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As you can see I've got books everywhere. I've got record player, reading chair, posters.

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It's a mighty fine man cave, I think.

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Yeah, I sort of got two really, cause we've got a cabin in the garden where

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all my books, bikes and weights.

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But my wife's been working there through lockdown. So it's, that bit in the garden is now partly office, partly man cave.

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And do you find that you can only write or you write your best work in your

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office, or can you just write anywhere?

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So that that varies. Lockdown changed that quite a bit because I made a decision just

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before lockdown and I decided I'm going to write a new novel on spec.

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I'm going to write it longhand in notebooks, which have still got piled up.

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And then lockdown happened. So I went with the idea of writing in notebooks and it meant that

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I was circulating all around the house throughout the day.

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Because like I say, three bed semi.

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It's quite sizable house for four adults.

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And the cabin in the garden really saved us through lockdown because I spent a

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lot more time sitting out there writing. Usually straight on a computer, but for that one novel, it was a handwritten.

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So I do a fair amount of writing away from home, in cafes and things.

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And I can do that quite comfortably. I find distractions at home, noise at home is more distracting for

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me than distractions outside. So if I sit in a coffee shop and it's really noisy, I can write.

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Yeah. But if I sit at home.

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For instance now I'm just looking at my dog in the back garden he might

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start barking soon as it's dinner time and that's a distraction.

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But if I'm in a coffee shop, I just stay at the table.

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I do find that I can write virtually anywhere as long as I've got

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either a laptop or a notebook. Okay.

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And what you're working on now. So your last book was a first draft, I guess, in notebooks.

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Yeah. Is that something that you think you'll repeat or was it just the plot

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of that lent itself to being written longhand or was it just an experiment?

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It was an experiment because I'm good friends with Rio

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Youers, a Canadian writer.

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He's a great guy, incredible writer, Rio.

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And he writes everything longhand. He writes, I don't think he's ever written anything straight on to the computer.

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And he writes longhand in pubs and cafes and sometimes at home,

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but usually away from home. It was a few years ago when he was living in Vienna and I, so it's a long

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story which I'll try and cut short. We went to a vampire convention in Transylvania, which does, does

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sound as incredible as it was. Amazing.

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Me, Rio and Chris Golden were guests there.

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And one evening we did a read thing in a cemetery in Transylvania.

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There was lightning, bats flying around in the church belfry and

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we heard barking in the distance. We were told afterwards was wolves and you can't get any better than that.

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Well you can, because in the morning I had chunks of Transylvanian grave

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dirt in the treads of my boots.

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So that's a Transylvania story.

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And I stayed with Rio in Vienna for a few days after that.

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And we have good chat about our writing processes, and I really fell in love

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with the idea of writing longhand. That's why I did this novel longhand.

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Back to your question and I'm going to do it again, not immediately.

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And that the reason, two reasons. One reason when you've written 100,000 word novel in notebooks,

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then you have to type it up. It's a real tough task.

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Reason number two, my handwriting is so terrible that

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sometimes I just got the gist. So you know I was typing up my own handwriting thinking, what

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did I, what does that word say? uh, I think if I did do it again, it would be, I do it how Rio does

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it, which is you'll write a thousand words and you'll transcribe it

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and edit it as he goes along. So even talking to you about it now, I'm about to start

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a new novel, very very soon. Even talking to you about it now, I, I still might consider

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doing it longhand because of the sort of freedom it gives you.

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When I decided to write the novel longhand, a couple of years ago, I had

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romantic notions of sitting on top of mountians with a cup of massive coffee,

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and then frigging COVID happened.

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And I wrote the whole thing at home. That was my rounadbout ambling way of saying I'm not sure if I'm you know.,

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I think it's, it's fascinating to write like, you know, like you say a

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hundred thousand words in long form.

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Did you find that your writing sessions differed greatly, like

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the length of time that you could write was either longer or shorter?

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I guess, you can move around a bit more than being chained to a computer

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or a laptop, but I guess there's a risk of hand cramps, so pros and cons.

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Did you write longer or shorter or did you keep to a set time?

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Probably shorter time-wise, but I think the writing was more intense.

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And it changed the way I wrote quite significantly, I think.

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Because when I'm not a great typist, I'm a three finger typist.

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Okay. Three fingers, thumb, space bar.

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Three or four finger typist. I'm fairly quick at it, but I make mistakes.

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So when I find, when I'm typing, I'll often go back and

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I'll be editing as I go along. Because I see that I've made mistakes, so I go back and edit.

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But handwriting was just flow.

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I'd cross the odd word out here and there, but I didn't worry

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about editing as I went into long, which showed when I transcribed.

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But then transcribing in itself was uh, was the first edit, really.

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Yeah. So I think the writing periods were shorter.

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Partly, like you say, hand cramp s. So partly for that reason.

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And also partly cause it was during lockdown and there

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four of us in the house. So I'd have an hour in one room and then I had to go to another

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room for another hour, maybe. Because my daughter is finishing a degree at home.

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My son was doing A levels at home. My wife was working at home.

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Yeah. Sounds hellish. But to be fair, to be honest, the first lockdown we still quite enjoyed.

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We were just at home together and it was quite nice.

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But it did make working quite difficult. So the writing periods were shorter, but I was getting the same sort

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of word count down that I aim for when I'm working on a novel.

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Which is probably, I aim for a couple of thousand words a day when I'm

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really in the saddle on a novel. And I was just thinking with writing, I don't want any kind of like plot

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spoilers, but first or third person.

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Sometimes if you're writing first person, it could really feel like journal entries

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and with third person, I guess it's that more classical style of a novel.

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Omniscient narrator. Would you be comfortable saying, whether it was first person or third person?

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Yeah. There's a bit of both in a novel actually. I like writing, I like mixing it up in a novel.

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So in the novels, the novel I wrote, it's called The Last Storm.

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It's going to be published in July by Titan Books.

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And there's some first person, some third person.

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I do, I enjoy writing first person, cause it is, does feel like you say almost

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like a journal entry and almost as if you're in that head of the character.

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But also I find, I think for a full length novel it can be a bit intense

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and also you need to get away from that character sometimes to find

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out what other people are doing. It's a sort of a chase story.

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So a family chase story in some regards.

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And I've done that before in novels, first and third person.

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It's difficult to do sometimes, but I think if you, somebody who I love

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as a writer, Mike Marshall Smith. I love him as a person as well.

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He did it in a novel quite a while back and I thought that was fucking great.

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I really appreciated that and enjoyed it.

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I do try that occasionally. Cool.

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That's excellent. And I also wanted to ask, more general about your writing process.

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Before you dived into writing it longhand, do you have a specific outline?

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Do you map a lot of the plot and the events before that, or are you much

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more of a by the seat of your pants? You know where you're going, but you want to just create in each writing session?

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Pantser or plotter. Yeah. I'm more of a pantser, to be honest.

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So sometimes I'll write a novel that's based on a proposal

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that I've sold to a publisher. Other times, such as with Eden and The Last Storm, I wrote the novels on spec.

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So it wasn't like a polished proposal that I'd written to send to a publisher.

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So what I usually do, I'll think about a novel a lot before I

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write it and make lots of notes and they're really scattershot.

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If I open my file of notes, it might be 10, 15, 20 pages long, but

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it's not in any particular order. And then I plan as I go along.

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So once I've thought about the novel and I found my way into it,

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which always involves, for me, the first page of a novel as, as a

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reader and even more importantly as a writer is, is really important.

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I need to feel that my first page or two really sings, you know?

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Really needs to feel three-dimensional and the characters need to sing off the page.

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Once I find my way into a novel, I tend to plan on ahead

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a couple of chapters at a time. When I was writing it longhand, I had a notebook, which was next couple of

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chapters this happens, that happens. But when I'm writing on the computer at the end of my day writing there's

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always a big wad of notes that I've planned for the future chapters.

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I'll usually have a rough idea of where it's going. I'll always have a rough idea of where the novel's going, where the story's going.

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But sometimes people die when I wasn't, might not have been expecting them to.

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Yeah. And it sounds glib but I always say I speed up writing when I get to

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the end of the novel, because I want to know what happens at the end. You usually have a rough idea, but I'm also keen to get there.

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I certainly don't plot novels out in great detail.

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Which often results in me writing myself into a corner, but I quite like that.

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Like writing yourself into a problem and you have to think your way out of it.

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Because that's what happens in life.

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You encounter problems, you have to work your way around them.

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Sorry. I, yeah, just one other quick thought.

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I also think if you plot a novel in great detail and actually plan scene

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by scene like you might do if you're writing a screenplay, for instance.

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You've told the story already. So it might not feel so fresh when you're actually writing it.

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No. Absolutely. And I think that, of the pansters I've spoken to, that seems

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to be the school of thought. What I really was interested in asking, if it's not a overall plot

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that is the Genesis of the idea of the story, what tends to form the

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initial elements of a story for you? Is it that you have a character that really interested you and

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what kind of world is this person live in, or is it a scenario and

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a kind of broad strokes society?

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And does it vary, but do you find that you felt you'd lean towards character

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or world scenarios when you first start developing an idea for a book?

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Probably much more scenarios and ideas and concept.

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Sometimes if I like my novel, The Silence, for instance.

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I can remember which I wrote seven or eight years ago, six or seven years ago.

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I can actually remember the moment where I thought monsters that hunt by

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sound, then I'll call it The Silence. And that was the g enesis of that novel.

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It's rare that I'll come up, fairly rare that I'll come up with the character

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and then the novel comes from there. It's usually a situation or like I say, a concept.

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My last, Eden, The Last Storm, and the novel I'm about to start

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are all sort of climate or driven by climate change cli-fi fiction.

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I don't really like the term, but cli-fi horror.

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Yeah. So w with Eden, I knew with Eden, it was the idea of a adventure racing

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team going somewhere dangerous. Evolved into the the climate change idea.

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With The Last Storm that was always going to be there anyway.

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And now I think I need to write a third one.

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Yeah, so usually often a really small idea.

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But as with The Silence, it's just high concepts and that was it.

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But that doesn't happen very often. Yes.

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And with Eden as example, adventure runners in a dangerous setting.

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How do you then go, cause it's quite a band of characters and

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they've all got their own agency.

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How'd you go about developing your characters?

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Do you like do character maps or are they based on certain archetypes?

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How do you go around developing your characters? Usually I've gotten an idea of what it'd be like as I go into the novel,

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but the development for me happens as I'm writing most of the time.

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Which often means that I have a fair amount of character

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editing to do when I go back. But it sort of feels like I'm a stranger meeting them for the first time.

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So they've got their lives behind them in a background, but I don't know them.

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I don't know anything about them. So going into the novel I'm discovering them is the same way that reader is.

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I've done various things that you're told, oh, you should do a character interview.

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And I've done that. 20 questions. Ask each character 20 questions and write their answers.

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So that in your head they're rounded people before you go

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in and start fighting them. I don't do that all the time.

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I'm trying to think of how that worked with Eden.

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I think, yeah, it's like a sort of a fluid thing.

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I don't remember sitting down and writing lots of character notes.

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Possibly for the, for Jenn and Dylan the main characters.

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Yeah. Yeah. But just develop as I go along really.

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Again, and I think if you write pages and pages of character stuff, before you start

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the novel, you know everything about them. And, part of the fun of writing a novel for me is the same fun I get

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from reading a novel, sometimes. It's finding out about the story and finding out that the

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characters and what happens. And I suppose building a novel as I go along is the same way that

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I'm discovering novel as I read. Yeah.

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And I think, a story comes in drafts, and I think it sort of people who new

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to writing or don't write, don't realize how many iterations of the story are

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told before the one that gets published.

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Developing character that way. You tell the story and the characters bring out and like you said there

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earlier ,sometimes a character may die when you weren't expecting it.

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The impact that will have on the other characters and how their actions and

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motivations may change because of that is what you find exciting about the stories?

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Yeah. I know some writers who love to plan things out and might react

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in horror, but I think that's the glorious thing of, there is no right

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answer in how to write a story.

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And I always find it fascinating to hear the people who start and go,

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yeah, I have no idea what happens, but then that's why I'm writing it.

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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't think any two people write write a novel in the same way, be honest.

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It's not just pantser v plotter it's yeah, everyone's got a different approach.

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And, you know, I have different approaches to different novels as well.

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This novel I'm writing now is, about to start writing, I've written a

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full proposal for it for a publisher. So that's a different process.

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So the last two, which I wrote on spec.

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Different in a way, but then I'll often I do often say if I write

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a proposal and sell a novel to a publisher, I never look at it again.

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I just go write the novel. When you write proposals, is this for an existing IP and existing universe?

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Well, it can be, but it can also to be for, this is for

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an original novel of my own. Okay.

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And with this proposal that you've written, so you'd know

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the ending already, or is it just more of a hook on the concept?

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I don't really know the ending. And like I say, if the publisher I've sent it to when, if, and when they buy it,

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I'm pretty hopeful it's going to happen. I might not look at the proposal again.

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I'll put it in a drawer, I'll write the novel.

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I will, I'll pick out plot points from it, but then a lot will change, inevitably.

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Because it's six months work and at the end of six months, I'd have

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written my way through the novel and met the characters and the ending I

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had in the proposal might not suit.

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And when I deliver novel, the publisher is not going to go back to the proposal

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and say, oh, this isn't exactly the same. If I wrote a historical Naval romance instead of a climate change horror

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thriller, they might have problems, but it's going to be a similar sort of story.

17:57

That's cool. And you have written in existing IP with Alien tie-in novels and the various

18:04

sort of movie books that you've written. How has it writing when there's a pre-established mythos compared to

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your own original books, is that easier or much more challenging?

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It's a different challenge, I think. I wouldn't say it's easier or harder, and each property brings different challenges.

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So I've written Star Wars, Alien, Predator, Hellboy, 30 days of night,

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Firefly, and they're all licensing regulations are all different.

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The relationships between publisher and licenser are different.

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They all necessitate like a detailed proposal before you

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start writing, like Star Wars, I had to write a detailed proposal.

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And I was surprisingly for me, I thought it was going to be really

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stringent, but I was given free reign really, which was quite nice.

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The Alien book came from, so the first Alien novel I wrote was part of a trilogy

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with me, Chris Goldman and Jim Moore. A two page proposal from Fox.

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So we were given the real rough outline.

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Okay. And then we had to expand it, but then I wrote an Alien vs.

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Predator trilogy, which just all my own sort of idea of far future.

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And then, like I say, everyone's different and novelizations of movies

19:13

is you just give them the script and you say, turn this into a novel.

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So that's probably the easiest tie-in work to do.

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But you're often told here's a script, we need it in a month.

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And by the way, it's not the shooting script.

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So you have to do changes at the end. Okay.

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So there's often difficulties with that as well.

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Yeah. And because some of the Alien Vs Predator, you've got your own characters.

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And so that's yeah, a bit more freedom, but when you're first Alien, the Fox

19:41

,proposal you actually had Ripley in it.

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And did you feel any pressure to really get the voice of Ripley, right?

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Or was that just more in working with the editor at the end?

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No. I felt a lot of pressure, but also I'm, that was my dream

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job, a Ripley Alien novel. I'd always wanted Alien, I love the Alien films, in lesser

20:09

degrees as, as the sequels go on.

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Alien is my favorite film of all time. And when we saw, when we saw the proposal from Fox.

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One of the novels was a Ripley novel and I said I want to do the first

20:21

one and then it was all agreed. Great. Yeah, that was great.

20:24

So there was pressure. I think I've got her voice okay.

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And even, even someone who got it even better, Dirk Maggs adapted the novel

20:32

for audio drama and the woman playing Ripley, can't remember her name for

20:38

the life of me, but she was fantastic. And Dirk got her voice just perfectly.

20:43

Oh, that was great. That was great fun to write. Really great fun.

20:47

Yeah. Cause I guess it's just when it's your own characters, the audience trust you

20:53

and just put their own imprint on it. But when everyone can hear Sigourney Weaver's voice in

20:58

their heads when reading it. Yeah. I can imagine that's very challenging, but thrilling at the same time.

21:04

Moving more onto your daily process now with you know,

21:09

you about to start a new book. Do you, you know, as a full-time writer, do you have a set schedule

21:15

for when you go, right, now I start writing now I finished writing.

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Do you have a certain hours a day or like you said earlier, you

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try and get a few thousand words.

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So is it more well, I've done everything else.

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I've cleaned the house, I better start writing now. So is it structured or is it a bit more loose?

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It's fairly structured. And that comes from, even though I've been writing full-time for 15 years,

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I was in a 9 to 5 job before that.

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And we've got two kids who are now grown up and almost, my daughter's away.

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She's in uni. My son's 18.

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He'll be gone to uni in September and he's traveling soon.

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So we're empty nester s, almost. But my wife works at home, still, because of COVID.

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So I'm still sort of sit at my desk at nine o'clock.

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Yeah, maybe 8: 30, if I get up that early, do social media crap, and

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then nine o'clock start writing. And then usually if I'm actually, it's been a while since I've actually been

22:10

writing a novel at my desk or wherever, but usually once I reached, sort of

22:14

2000 words, whether that's by midday or three in the afternoon I'm, I'm feeling,

22:19

oh, I'm think I'm done for the day. Creatively tired a little bit.

22:23

So I tend to try and work from nine to five with maybe at lunchtime

22:26

run or lunch with my wife. But then I'll often be working in the evenings.

22:30

My manager is New York. My manager, my film manager is LA.

22:33

So if there's any stuff to talk about with them, it's usually

22:36

late afternoons or evenings. And, you know, you're always working as a writer.

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That's what I always say. It's the only job where I can be sitting at my desk with my feet on

22:45

the desk, staring out the window. And my wife says, what are you doing?

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And I can say writing. Yeah. And it's right.

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you know, I do carry on through the evening as well, sometimes.

22:55

As someone who's been a full-time writer for 15 years, because throughout the

22:59

podcast, I'm speaking to people at various different stages of their career.

23:03

And the thing I've noticed with people who have just made the

23:06

transition from a full-time work to, or part-time work to, full-time writer

23:12

is that they still dress for work.

23:15

And this is I get up and get washed and dressed and stuff like that.

23:19

And I feel for the benefit of, we were both very relaxed.

23:23

They were both in our loungewear, I would generously call our

23:28

t-shirt and joggers and hoodie.

23:30

Was there a time when you dressed more formally for your writing sessions that

23:34

just got more relaxed as you went on?

23:36

Or was it always just a thrill of when you first stopped the day job to go, I'm never

23:41

having to wear a shirt and tie again?

23:45

No, it was straight into jeans and t-shirt, and never pajamas to be honest.

23:49

I do like to get up change and dress comfortable clothing.

23:53

I mean, I started, sort of transitioned from working full time in my day job,

23:57

and then becoming a writer by, I have three and a half years part-time in my

24:00

day job, which was the local authority.

24:03

And then I did become one of the scrappier ones in the office.

24:06

So over the last year with two, I go with the black jeans and polo

24:10

shirt instead of shirt and tie, which most people recommended.

24:13

I always never, where's where's your tie, Lebbon? But it was, I transitioned from am smart clothing to scruffy.

24:21

I'm much more comfortable scruffy, to be honest. I think it's when you're spending long periods of time, fairly static.

24:29

You do want to be comfortable. And I think perceptions that have changed of writers from the start of the show to

24:36

now, and progressing, is that often the cliche gift people think that to get a

24:41

writer is a nice pen, a nice notebook, and I find most writers don't like use pens

24:48

and notebooks, and if they do, they don't want a nice one because it's all just

24:51

scrubbed, scrappy ideas and they go oh, that, pen's too nice to write my divel.

24:56

Or just, I, I can't have a notebook where I can't tear

24:59

the pages out, it's too lovely. And so I'm beginning to think that the perfect gift for writers is loungewear.

25:06

A really comfy hoodie or joggers.

25:09

These are the gifts a writer needs. Yeah.

25:12

Interesting. When I did start writing my novel longhand, I was looking

25:15

for the perfect notebook. Because I want you to write with a fountain pen, even

25:20

though my writing's terrible. So I bought, I did buy a nice fountain in pen and I Code & Quill notebooks.

25:25

I was the recommended. I actually, they had to send them from America.

25:29

I'll probably because of Brexit. I'd probably pay a fortune in import fees.

25:33

But if they want to sponsor the show, I'm open to it.

25:35

Yeah. Fantastic. I bought two of them. Filled them up.

25:37

And then the rest of the novel did end up in scruffy little notebooks that I found.

25:41

I've got a bit of a notebook problem, actually. I've got dozens of the things lying around, but what writer doesn't?

25:45

Yeah, absolutely. Another thing that I'm beginning to realize with writers, that often there

25:51

can be a point during the first draft stage, where often there's the feeling

25:57

that you've forgotten how to write.

26:00

That actually, you're a terrible writer. Why am I doing this?

26:03

After 15 years full-time, do you recognize at what state of the book is it?

26:08

Like two thirds of the way through, is it 80%?

26:10

Is it earlier? Is there a certain stage that you hit and it's your imposter syndrome stage?

26:16

Yeah, it's usually the middle of the book. Almost always guaranteed to hit the middle of the book and you go on in with

26:23

the enthusiasm, great opening, heading towards what's going to be an exciting,

26:29

to use the screenplay structure, act two is always the tough one for me.

26:33

The imposter syndrome rises and falls.

26:36

I'm aware that I've, I'm making a living from writing, which is lovely.

26:39

And I've written lots and lots of novels, some people would say too many.

26:43

But there is, there's always the doubt that you can carry on.

26:47

There's always the fear for me that it'll dry up and I won't get to continue.

26:52

I'm fairly confident I will, because I was talking about my good friend Rio

26:55

Youers, he's such a fantastic writer.

26:57

Rio focuses on a novel at a time and that's it.

27:00

At the moment I'm starting a new novel, I've got an audio project,

27:04

which I'm hoping it's going to happen. Over the last couple of days, I've been doing a lot of screenwriting.

27:09

So I've got feature, film, feature scripts out there.

27:12

And a pilot written solo and two collaborative pilots.

27:17

So I've written, so I've got lots of stuff flying around.

27:21

And I'm hoping some of it will land.

27:24

So for me, the imposter syndrome is sort of a couched fear.

27:28

And I think most writers experience that fear.

27:30

I, I know some writers who are very wealthy and they still say oh I'm

27:34

fucking terrified, it's all going to end. And I think that's a sort of a healthy attitude in a way,

27:38

that it keeps you on your toes. If you get too blasé about what you write, first of all, you end

27:43

up writing the same stuff again and again, which isn't healthy.

27:45

I don't think. And then you might just not end up putting the same amount of

27:48

effort into writing something. And that, that will show through with your readers.

27:52

So I think it's important. For the same reason, I try to make every novel the best one I've ever written.

27:56

Sometimes on the half way through I'm thinking, I'm

27:59

thinking, no, this really isn't. But something like The Last Storm, for instance, that is out soon.

28:04

I was writing long hand, and all the way through I was thinking, I'm not really sure about this.

28:08

I finished it and I was ready to type it up. Oh, I'm really not sure about this.

28:12

And then now I honestly do think it's one of the best novels I've written.

28:15

It's really propulsive and it's cinematic and yeah.

28:18

And people are reading it and loved it.

28:21

So it also goes to show you, you just can't really tell.

28:27

I don't think many writers can be really objective about their work.

28:32

And I guess, sort of, to counteract the imposter syndrome it's just

28:36

reminding yourself of that fact. And just giving yourself that little coaching session,

28:41

just talking yourself up. Is there any other techniques that you have, if you feel that you

28:45

all maybe like spiraling a bit? Where you really get the fear but you can push yourself out of

28:50

it, or is it just more of a, you know, it's temporary and you just

28:53

have to ride through that emotion? Yeah.

28:56

I just write through it, to be honest. Whether I've got contract for a novel or not, I'm always fairly

29:03

hopeful the thing's going to sell. It's the same way as if when you write yourself into a corner,

29:08

you've got plot problems, you write through it and fix it afterwards.

29:12

If you've got the fear and you're worried that things aren't quite going to turn

29:15

out as you hope you just keep going. And the old adage, something always comes up.

29:19

In my 15 years full-time, I've had some more ups than downs.

29:23

Sort of writing wise and earning wise. So I've been quite lucky to have some Hollywood stuff done and film options.

29:31

But also I write a lot. I write a lot more than some writers.

29:36

A lot writers publish a novel every year, 18 months.

29:39

The last couple of years it's been a bit slower. I tend to publish a couple of novels a year.

29:43

Whether they be originals or tie-ins or collaborations.

29:47

And work and other stuff as well. I'm a working writer, I call myself.

29:51

I'll take on projects because their bread and butter sometimes, like novelizations

29:55

and tie-in work, which I love doing. But also, if I had a hundred percent choice, I'd just write my own novels.

30:03

One novel a year for six figures, I'm not that lucky.

30:07

Yeah. And how do you find collaborations?

30:09

And are they something that you actively seek out or are they just things that are

30:12

offered and you feel like, yeah, that's the person I really want to work with?

30:16

I, I've never collaborated with somebody that I didn't want

30:18

to work with, that's for sure. And generally my main collaborator is Chris Golden in the states.

30:23

Who we've written eight novels together and a screenplay and short stories.

30:27

And we've we got a novella coming out soon, which isn't announced

30:30

yet, but it's going to be amazing.

30:33

It's going to look beautiful. And we were really good friends.

30:36

We know each other very well. Well enough to say what you did, didn't work, you know.

30:41

And uh, also uh, we know each other well enough to know the

30:44

process of how we collaborate and feel and do it very smoothly.

30:48

And I've collaborated with, Steve Volk and I have written

30:50

a couple of scripts together. And Stephen Susco in the States, screenwriter over there, we've

30:55

written a pilot together. Uh, I really I do love collaborating because it's, first of all, it's like

31:02

a, it's a sounding board for your work.

31:04

Yeah. That's one reason. Another reason is you end up writing something you'd never

31:08

would have written on your own. Yeah. Perfect collaboration is when you create a third voice.

31:13

So we've each got our own personal writing styles.

31:17

As a collaborative team, if your voice is different from two individuals,

31:21

you've created a third voice. You've created a third writer in effect, if that works then it's worked.

31:27

And our agent, my agents Howard Moore, in New York.

31:30

At the time of our first collaboration, me and Chris, he wasn't Chris's agent.

31:35

He is now. But he read the book and he said, oh, so you wrote the first chapter, Tim.

31:40

I said, no, it was Chris. So it worked from the beginning, so I really, I love collaborating.

31:46

It's it's really so exciting and refreshing, especially

31:49

if it's with someone new. So I'm always open to collaboration a little bit.

31:54

Yeah. And with the different formats, because I think that a lot of people don't

31:59

realize how different the disciplines of writing a short story, a novella,

32:03

a novel, a screenplay are that there are different beats, there's

32:07

different techniques to writing those.

32:10

Is there, with uh, the difference between a novela and a novel?

32:14

I guess as a pantser, do you know that going in, like this is going to be a

32:18

shorter story or this might be a hundred thousand or is it just sometimes you go

32:22

to write a novella, and then it's I'm still going and I've hit 50,000 words.

32:26

This might not be a novella anymore. How do you know, like what kind of story length you're going for?

32:32

Yeah. I'm usually fairly good at judging that, I think.

32:36

I wrote a novella last year. I just decided I've got this really rough scene in my head.

32:42

I'm just going to start writing. It'll probably be a novella.

32:45

And it turned out about 25,000 words. It's not often I'll sit down to write a new novel and it

32:51

comes in short, for instance. Sometimes bit long, but that's just an editing thing.

32:56

I'm quite good at judging the length of, length of things.

32:59

If I'm invited into an anthology to write a short story and they've got a five

33:03

or six thousand word limit, I might hit 7,000 words, but I'm not going to send

33:07

them something that's 17 or 18 thousand. A story's as long as it needs to be.

33:11

Yeah. And I guess with the 15 years of full-time experience, it's more instinctive now?

33:18

I guess. But a short story is a very different beast from the novel, obviously.

33:24

So I'll know if an idea is a short story idea or a novel idea.

33:28

But then sometimes a short story idea can turn into a novel idea.

33:31

Like my novel, The Last Storm. I actually wrote a story called Hell Came Down, about 20 years ago, I think.

33:37

Which the sort of core idea of that is the sort of basis of the novel.

33:43

You wrote the short story, but you felt that there was more of the story to be told?

33:47

Yeah, partly that, and partly that the central idea could lend

33:51

itself to a bigger scale story.

33:55

Yeah. And with screenplay, because you have a very cinematic style of writing.

34:00

I would say that there's a very strong visual core to your

34:04

prose, which I really enjoy. And I think it lends itself, which is why you have such great

34:10

novelizations of film and film tie-ins.

34:13

But writing screenplays is very different.

34:16

It's very sparse. It's not as descriptive.

34:19

It's very dialogue heavy. How do you approach the start of a screenplay when you're mapping that out?

34:26

Because as you said before, you tend to be more scenario based, but a screenplay

34:31

tends to be very character driven.

34:33

And you have that that dialogue. So how has your approach to screenplays?

34:37

Lot more, lot more planning. When I write screenplays I'm a planner.

34:41

As opposed to pantser, most of the time. I do know some screenwriters who will start with a scene where

34:47

it see where it takes them. But the ones I've written up to now, certainly if you're a collaboration with

34:52

somebody, there's a lot more planning. I think 20% of writing a screenplay is actually sitting

34:57

down writing the first draft. Okay. 80% of it is planning it and thinking about it and making notes and character.

35:02

For me anyway. Yeah. And plotting scene by scene before you actually write it.

35:07

So actually for me, sitting down and writing the first draft is..

35:11

I can do it really quickly because I know every scene.

35:15

I know the beats. I do still feel I'm really learning about screen writing.

35:21

I've written a few screenplays now. Quite a few.

35:23

Again, quite few in collaboration, but a few on my own.

35:26

I know I'm enjoying learning a back to it as well. I'm enjoying feedback.

35:29

I've got a great manager in LA who he's really focused on story.

35:34

And he's very sharp. I've said to him a few times, why aren't you writing screenplays?

35:38

Because he's brilliant. But he is, he's very good at taking what I send him and telling me what

35:45

he likes and what he doesn't like. And then we brainstorm how to fix it.

35:48

And I have learned through my earliest screenplays.

35:50

And I'm about to learn now, I think. It's much more of a collaborative process as well.

35:53

My manager has helped me enormously on the stuff I've written now.

35:56

And it's going out there into the big wide world.

36:00

And if anyone likes any of it, it will be more rewrites.

36:05

I often say, I don't think a story's ever finished.

36:07

You never quite finish writing a novel, I don't think. Even when it's published, you'll still change things round in your head

36:12

sometimes and you think, oh, maybe I could have done something different.

36:16

Screenplays very much the same, I think.

36:19

Yeah, and with your manager, it sounds very much it's the equivalent

36:22

of an editor on a, a novel.

36:24

He's, Michael's just, he's embedded out there.

36:28

He knows he's been working in Hollywood for years and years, so

36:31

he knows lots of people out there. He knows what people are looking for.

36:34

He knows the sort of stuff that might attract a big producer or streamer,

36:39

or, you know, a film company. So he's doing his best to make sure what I've written is going

36:44

to attract some attention.

36:47

He's putting his time in to help me.

36:49

Cause he sold loads of stuff, he's very experienced.

36:52

He's read, god knows how many screenplays he's read.

36:55

So I do still, like I said, feel that I'm at the beginning of screenwriting career.

37:00

But also it's, and I love it. Cause it's just, it is just another form of storytelling.

37:05

I think as a writer, I've always just liked to think I'm a storyteller.

37:09

I happen to write, I'm sort of known as a novelist, I guess.

37:11

But I love writing novellas and short stories. I'm hoping to get into some audiodrama soon.

37:16

Yeah, just spreading dtorytelling wings.

37:19

I love telling you the stories and whatever format I can get

37:21

to do it in is, is good for me.

37:24

So with the audio dramas, is that something that you've just

37:27

started writing that format?

37:30

Haven't actually started writing anything yet, it's like a pitch.

37:32

It's a pitch that I've got out there which I'm hoping is going to land soon.

37:37

I can't really say much about it, but it could be quite exciting.

37:40

Yeah, absolutely. Because it is it's its own discipline and with podcasts now, like audio

37:46

dramas really getting a resurgence.

37:48

So.. Yeah, they're massive.

37:51

And it will be even, it would be different even from screenplays

37:54

because you can't see anything.

37:56

All through audio. It's a real, it's a real challenge, but I still like challenging

38:01

myself sometimes as well. It's another way of trying to, try and stop writing becoming

38:06

stale by another route. And that's why I've always got several projects on the go.

38:09

Different novels, short stories, screenplays, and the audio at the moment.

38:14

And have you, to get into the mindset, have you been listening

38:17

to a lot of audio dramas? Yeah, quite a few.

38:20

I love Sandman. I mean, Dirk's great.

38:22

Dirk Maggs. And the Alien stuff he's done is just fantastic as well.

38:26

The adaptation he did of Out of the Shadows, my novel, was just amazing.

38:31

And that was all Dirk. I wrote the novel but Dirk did the adaptation and directed it.

38:35

And Rutger Hauer was in it, how cool is that?

38:38

That is very cool. Yeah, it's amazing.

38:40

I often get emails or tweets about that.

38:43

And people saying, oh, I loved it. And I always say it was, this was Dirk.

38:46

But I'm enjoying listening to them and like we were chatting about before we

38:50

started recording, I'm getting into listen to podcasts and things like that as well.

38:55

And trying to, I'm past half a century now, so I'm trying to keep

38:59

up with current trends and keep aware of what's going on out there, so

39:02

that I can keep writing basically. Well, I think the technology is certainly advanced, but it does feel

39:08

like things have gone in cycles. Because obviously before TV and cinema really took off, the radio plays, famously

39:16

Orson Welles War of the Worlds adaptation, they had a huge place in society.

39:21

And I think it's now, people are commuting and they got the headphones in.

39:27

And it's just listening to something rather than holding a

39:30

book or having their heads down. People want to see the world.

39:35

And yeah, so we're looking around a lot more, being in their environment,

39:39

rather than neck pain of constantly looking down at their phone or their

39:43

Kindle, their book, or whatever. That it is interesting how it's developed and how, obviously myself as a podcaster,

39:50

it is a real way to touch people and that the audience is growing and growing.

39:54

So yeah, it's a good market to get into. And I really hope it takes off.

39:58

I'm sure if it does, it'll be excellent. Well, it's quite exciting.

40:01

I think if what I'm hoping happens, then there'll be some excited fans.

40:06

Oh great. Not for me. Something else, but

40:09

Oh okay. I see see see.

40:11

Yes. I would love to uh, sort of like, we can revisit in a few years.

40:15

Have you back on the show. Yeah. One of the things, cause you mentioned people tweeting about

40:21

uh your work and stuff like that. What's your opinion of social media as a writer?

40:25

Do you feel that Twitter is a useful tool for writers?

40:29

I've got a real love, hate relationship with social media, I must say.

40:32

So I, yeah, I get drawn in. I spend too much time on social media and I'm very aware of that.

40:38

I'm trying not to. But I get drawn into stuff and I think I'm getting better at it.

40:43

I tend not to get into arguments on social media.

40:46

It's ,what's the point? Yeah. People shouting into a hurricane.

40:49

I mean, my publishers will always say, you need a social media

40:52

presence and I've always had one. Like, Facebook and Twitter I use and I'm being told I should be on Instagram.

40:58

So I need to learn about how to use that.

41:01

I think it is important. It it's certainly been much more important the last couple of years.

41:05

Cause it's such an easy way, easier way to keep yourself as part of the

41:09

writing community in a reading community.

41:11

And, I made friends on social media and I got, actually got friends

41:15

that I'd never met on social media. You know, we regard ourselves as friends.

41:19

It's a strange thing, really. Yeah, but it's, I do think it's too easy to get drawn

41:24

into stuff that doesn't matter.

41:26

The amount of times I've written a tweet, being angry at Partygate

41:30

or whatever the hell it might be, and then realized what's the point?

41:34

If I write this tweet and put it out there, it's not going to change anything.

41:37

It doesn't matter. Nobody cares that I'm angry at Boris Johnson or whatever might be happening.

41:42

So I just delete it and then go about my day.

41:46

Without any stress. Uh, so it's definitely a networking tool rather than a promotion tool for you?

41:53

I guess it's a bit of both really. I self-publish some of my older books as e-books through Kindle.

41:59

And yeah, if I knew how to promote them, I'd probably sell more of them.

42:03

I do tweet about them. It is a promotional tool for getting the word out there about

42:07

books, new books, and new deals. It's also, I think it's more important that it's word of mouth tool.

42:14

So I can go and talk about my new novel ad nauseum and people

42:18

soon get pissed off with me. Just seeing posts from me about my new book.

42:21

But the great thing about social media is the social part of it.

42:24

Where people start talking about books they've loved and how great they are.

42:30

And then other people see that and it spreads the word.

42:32

I think it's more useful in that way. But it is, it's also useful and quite important having a sort

42:37

of a public face as a writer.

42:40

Having somewhere where people could communicate with you.

42:42

And I like, I like that. I like hearing what writers, what readers thinking like work.

42:46

Like I say, love, hate relationship. I'll always be on it.

42:49

I've had breaks from social media of a few weeks at a time.

42:52

And it's felt nice, but I'm always drawn back in.

42:55

I don't know many writers that don't use it, to be honest.

42:59

Not many at all. You know, you can be Chris Evans, and not have the phone and not be on social media.

43:03

But then have 15 assistants around you.

43:06

I haven't got the luxury of having an assistant.

43:09

Last two questions. Firstly, it's my belief that writers continuing to grow and develop their

43:13

writing with each story that they write. Obviously your last novel was written longhand, but was there anything

43:20

else within the writing of that story that you feel you'll now apply

43:27

to the book you're about to write? Was that something that you learned about yourself or about your writing

43:31

style or technique that you think this, I need to do this next time?

43:36

Um, that's an interesting question. I'm not entirely sure, to be honest.

43:40

The fact that it's thematically the new novel is, has got the climate change

43:45

link, which I guess shows importance of writing about stuff that interests

43:50

you and worries you, scares you. The popular question for a horror writer is what scares you.

43:55

And I, I did have a dream last night about a flying spider,

43:59

which scared the shit out of me. But generally stuff like that doesn't really scare me.

44:03

What scares me is my family in peril and the world in peril,

44:07

which it is with climate change. I'm writing about what scares me.

44:11

And that isn't always the case, I don't think.

44:14

But I think with Eden and The Last Storm and the novel I'm about to start writing,

44:19

I am talking about stuff that worries me and scares me and worries me for my kids.

44:24

So I've always had, the link between humanity and nature has always

44:28

been a thing through my books. And I guess the last few years when climate change and global warming is

44:33

being thrust to the fore more than ever before it's become strong, stronger theme.

44:39

And I agree with you, I think, I can't remember quite how you put it.

44:41

Improve, adapt, change. So I always always want to think, if you have ask a writer, what's your best book,

44:48

the answer should always be the next one. Yeah. Because I've got favorites out of what I've written, but I always want to

44:55

think that my best books ahead of me. And lastly is the one piece of advice you've been told or read that

45:04

consciously helps you with your writing?

45:06

So one thing that you find yourself returning to that helps

45:10

you with the way that you write? I think I'd say write what you want to read.

45:16

Because in doing that, you're telling a story that excites you

45:21

as a reader, as well as a writer. And that, you can also go back to the idea that, like I said earlier, I speed

45:27

up writing towards the end of a novel, because I want to know what happens.

45:30

I know roughly what happens, but not necessarily who's going to live and

45:33

die and how the story is going to end. So once I finished the novel, then it's published.

45:37

I'll never pick up my own novel and read it again because by then I've

45:40

read it 54 times and I'm sick of it. Which is another reason to write something that you enjoy reading, because

45:44

you're going to be reading it a lot. Yeah. Like you mentioned earlier, drafts.

45:49

Draft after draft. I feel I do two or three large drafts of a novel, but there's those loads of

45:56

tinkering that goes on in the meantime.

45:58

So yeah, write what you want to read.

46:00

Because you're excited about it, you might be passionate about it, and it's

46:04

a story that you want to tell people. That's great.

46:07

We'll end there, Tim. And just thank you very much for being my guest this week.

46:11

It's been great. I thank you very much. And that was a real writing process of Tim Lebbon.

46:18

I'm very pleased to say Tim's latest book, The Last Storm comes out this

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Tuesday, the 5th of July, 2022.

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Of course, if you're catching up with this in the future, it's already

46:28

out and you know, it's a great book. It might be the book that brought you to listen to this interview.

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In that case, hello! Hope you enjoyed it.

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For everyone else listening to this on the day, it goes out all or shortly after.

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Get on buying this book. If you can, pre-order it and get it this week.

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The future audience knows how good this book is, but they can't tell you

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because we don't have the technology to communicate across time that way.

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However, trust me and trust Tim when we say it's the best thing he's ever written.

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And he's written some fucking good stuff. I'll leave Tim's website and social media links in the show notes.

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He has now joined Instagram. So do go and like his posts and see the man in all his beauty.

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As for me, this is the end of season two.

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The season that almost broke me.

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Honestly, a sincere thank you to all my listeners, but I was not

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expecting so many of you so soon.

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This podcast is a production team of one, and I have learned the edges of my limits.

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So I'm pleased to say there will be a shorter season

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three and it will go beyond. But now I need to take a summer holiday, read some books, and discover some

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amazing authors that spark my curiosity in how they write what they write.

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You can find me on Twitter most of the time @therealwriting1.

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But until the autumn, look after yourselves.

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And keep writing, until the world ends.