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0:34

Welcome to the Resilient Mind

0:36

podcast. In this episode, for

0:38

you will be listening to Create

0:40

Massive Success with Dr. Benjamin Hardy.

0:42

Get access to the Resilient Mind

0:44

Journal by clicking the link in the

0:46

show notes. in the show notes. Enjoy.

0:49

And I thought we'd And I thought we'd start

0:51

on happiness because I was struck by

0:53

a study I came across recently that

0:55

said, can the studies that ask people

0:57

about happiness over time? It It seems

0:59

like happiness levels are just in an all-time level. are

1:01

just about an all-time low. How do

1:03

we help people become happier? How

1:05

I understand happiness is that a person's

1:08

experience in the present is largely shaped

1:10

by... their relationship with their past and

1:12

their relationship with their future. That's really

1:15

how I see it as a like

1:17

a positive psychologist I guess you

1:19

could say and so from my view

1:21

happiness in the present is about having

1:23

an increasingly purposeful useful past which is

1:25

something you develop mastery on something you

1:27

get better and better at I guess

1:29

you could say utilizing your past reframing

1:31

it also redeveloping your relationship with your

1:33

past self and people in your past

1:35

as well as the relationship you have

1:37

with your own future self having a

1:39

sense of clarity and utilizing that to

1:41

make better decisions in the present, build

1:43

confidence, have a sense of meaning similar

1:45

to what Victor Frankel would have said,

1:47

you know, 70 years ago. So I

1:49

mean, it's really about developing mastery of those

1:52

two things, developing mastery of your own past,

1:54

continually making it better, more useful, something you're

1:56

grateful for, no matter what it was, no

1:59

matter how traumatic. or disappointing, whatever it

2:01

is, and then getting clear and

2:03

clear and more emotionally connected to

2:05

your future self, and ultimately

2:07

operating from that. And so you bring

2:09

up this idea of future self, an

2:12

area that you focus on, can you

2:14

help me understand what future self means?

2:16

Yeah, absolutely. So we all, I guess the easiest

2:18

way to start is identity. So identity

2:21

is fundamentally two things. It's the story

2:23

you have for yourself. It's a narrative,

2:25

it's the narrative you have of your

2:27

past. present and your future. And then

2:30

it's the, and then secondarily it's your

2:32

standards, which is essentially your floor and

2:34

your ceiling. And so the story that we all

2:36

have of our, well, I guess one way of

2:38

looking at it is that we all have what

2:40

would be considered a future. The typical way of

2:42

having a future though is what would

2:44

be considered by many a default future.

2:47

So our brain is a prediction machine,

2:49

our brains constantly making predictions or what

2:52

psychologists would call prospects, prospects, prospection.

2:54

We have tons of different prospects

2:56

for our future. And the default

2:58

future is really the future that

3:01

is most expected, most predicted, even

3:03

if it's the one that's not

3:05

the most wanted. And so the goal

3:07

of future self is to begin taking

3:09

stock on that future, to begin thinking

3:12

about it. A lot of research shows

3:14

that even if, say, I asked you,

3:16

you know, are you the exact same

3:18

person you were 10 years ago? We

3:20

went back to 2013. You know, we're

3:22

having this conversation. to September of 2013

3:24

and really thought about who you were, what

3:26

your life was like, what you

3:28

were thinking about, even thinking about,

3:30

you know, what your goals were,

3:32

your values, your friends, your interests,

3:35

you could probably see a massive change.

3:37

So even after people do that, if

3:39

we were to ask, well, who are

3:41

you going to be in 10 years

3:44

from now, most people haven't really thought

3:46

about it. And so most people assume

3:48

that who they are in the

3:50

present is for decades. attributes that

3:52

mostly just to a lack of imagination, just that

3:54

most people are not simply thinking about it. And so

3:57

because they're not thinking about it, they just push the

3:59

presence into the... the future. From my perspective

4:01

it's a lot more useful to imagine

4:03

the future and then pull the future

4:05

into the present. So yet let the

4:07

future dictate what you do in the

4:09

present rather than let the present dictate

4:11

how you see the future. And it's

4:13

a skill. It's honestly a skill. Developing

4:15

imagination for your future self. Starting to

4:17

build the connection with that identity. And

4:19

then honestly starting to operate from that

4:21

identity. It's a skill that people can

4:23

develop. And that people do develop. Yeah.

4:25

It sounds different than goals. Obviously, they're

4:27

connected, but what's the difference between kind

4:29

of really imagining yourself in the future

4:31

versus having a goal? I think that

4:33

imagining your future self is what can

4:35

inform your goals. And so like as

4:37

an example, when I was a graduate

4:39

student, I really wanted to be a

4:41

professional author. I saw that as something

4:43

I wanted to do, and so that

4:45

informed the goals I set, such as

4:47

I want to get a book deal,

4:49

which which goal subsequently, you know. allowed

4:51

me to go and start blogging online

4:53

and learning how to develop an audience

4:55

so that I actually could get that

4:57

book deal. So my future self, the

4:59

person I wanted to be, thinking about

5:01

my identity, identity and goals are highly

5:03

correlated. And so, yeah, I think that

5:05

that's what informs your goals is your

5:07

future self. It's also what ultimately allows

5:09

them to be accomplished. If you study

5:11

deliberate practice, deliberate practice is essentially getting

5:13

connected to your future self and... practicing

5:15

as your future self. Obviously, there's a

5:17

lot of mechanics with the liberal practice,

5:19

but it's essentially operate when it's done

5:21

well. You're connected to the future self.

5:23

You're even operating as much as you

5:25

can through that lens. So as an

5:27

example, when I was blogging as much

5:29

as you can through that lens. So

5:31

as an example, when I was blogging

5:33

online, I was very connected to the

5:35

idea of my future self being a

5:37

professional author, having big book deals, and

5:39

so that was the identity that I

5:41

would tap. Fast growth. Wow. So what

5:43

do you mean by tapping into you?

5:45

Like does that mean like as you

5:47

sit down on the computer you're envisioning?

5:49

You in a certain amount of time

5:51

like what do you mean tapping in?

5:53

I mean you've probably heard of the

5:55

framework There's a there's a framework of

5:57

be then do then have have you

5:59

heard of that framework? No, okay. Okay.

6:01

Okay. So I'll take you through two

6:03

different frameworks One is you know to

6:05

get to two different frameworks one is

6:07

you know to get to even think

6:09

about your features have you have to

6:11

think about it right so that's the

6:13

imagination piece Albert Einstein said imagination is

6:16

more important than knowledge this is what

6:18

Daniel Gilbert said most people just don't

6:20

about it and honestly a lot of

6:22

research from different scholars talking about the

6:24

idea of vividness. You do want to

6:26

get that future self to be more

6:28

vivid. From my view I think about

6:30

my future self quite long term but

6:32

also much more like saying the next

6:34

like three years. Who am going to

6:36

be in three years? Obviously with a

6:38

growth mindset you're a lot more connected

6:40

to or even identified by your future

6:42

self than a fixed mindset. Fixed mindset

6:44

would be you're overly identified with who

6:46

you were in the past. Growth mindset

6:48

means you're not overly identified with who

6:50

you are today. You know that who

6:52

you are is flexible. So you're getting

6:54

really, really connected with who you could

6:56

be in the future, believing that your

6:58

future self could be massively more capable,

7:00

more skilled, more confident, more confident, etc.

7:02

So you want to, I guess, more

7:04

capable, more skilled, more confident, etc. So

7:06

you want to, I guess, the two,

7:08

more capable, more skilled, more confident, more

7:10

confident, etc. So you want to, I

7:12

guess, I guess, I guess, I guess,

7:14

I guess, I guess, I guess, I

7:16

guess, I guess, more capable, more capable,

7:18

more capable, more capable, more skilled, more-

7:20

more skilled, more- more- more- more- more-

7:22

more skilled, more- more- more- more- more-

7:24

more- more- more- more skilled, more- more-

7:26

more- more- more- more- more- more- more-

7:28

more- more- more- more- more- more- more-

7:30

more- For me, reaching a place of

7:32

acceptance. Acceptance, commitment, even gratitude, appreciation, and

7:34

then you get to the place of

7:36

knowing, where that's where I would say

7:38

you're kind of at a place of

7:40

confidence. You've already reached a place of

7:42

knowing that's who you've reached a place

7:44

of knowing that that's who you are

7:46

now, even if there's not that much

7:48

evidence, if you're building that evidence, you

7:50

start to know that that's the direction

7:52

you're going. You start to talk more

7:54

about it, you're like. You're now, like,

7:56

going to find the way. This fits,

7:58

you know, with Frankel as well. Victor

8:00

Franklin answered from meaning where he says

8:02

when the Y is... strong enough, you

8:04

know, you can bear any how, but

8:06

also in the why strong enough, you

8:08

will find the how. So this fits

8:10

with hope and what would be considered

8:12

pathways thinking, that once you get really

8:14

committed, you have that place of knowing.

8:16

And so, that's one of the models.

8:18

I'll tell you the other one in

8:20

a second. I'm just, because you shared

8:22

an example of Mr. Beast in the

8:24

opening of one of your recent books,

8:26

and you're talking about that he in

8:28

2017, correct me if I'm wrong. videos.

8:30

Yep, he was 17 years old. Yeah,

8:32

tell me the story and why do

8:34

you think that was so powerful for

8:36

him? So yeah, so Mr. Beast, obviously

8:38

we most people know who he is

8:40

these days. If you don't know who

8:42

he is, he's pretty much the biggest

8:44

person on the internet. But he's young.

8:46

I think he's, so if I understand

8:48

properly, he was 17 years old in

8:50

2015. So what does that make him

8:52

today? He's somewhere like 24, 24 years

8:54

old. But basically... What happened was, and

8:56

I don't know the exact date, I

8:58

actually became aware of him in like

9:00

2019, 2020, and I was watching his

9:02

videos. I just thought he was fascinating.

9:04

But what I saw in 2020, and

9:06

I think it was October now that

9:08

I think about it, was a video

9:10

and it had a picture now that

9:12

I think about it, was a video

9:14

and it had a picture of him,

9:16

and it had a picture of him

9:18

from five years. And it's like two

9:20

minutes long. So I click on it,

9:22

and I'm like, this is interesting. And

9:24

it's an old video where he's 17

9:27

years old, and it's back in 2015.

9:29

So this is five years ago. And

9:31

he's basically saying, hey, this is me

9:33

in 2015. I'm filming a video talking

9:35

to my future self five years into

9:37

the future. So hey, future me. And

9:39

he's basically just talking to his future

9:41

self very publicly. And ultimately, if you

9:43

go back, you can see that same

9:45

night filmed. Multiple other videos. So basically

9:47

what happened was is that night He

9:49

even says in the first video that

9:51

he was skipping a history test to

9:53

do this and he was I think

9:55

he had been doing YouTube for quite

9:57

some time. Actually, before that, I think

9:59

it was multiple years he had been

10:01

doing YouTube. I think he started around

10:03

age 12, so he'd been doing it

10:05

like five years, but honestly he had

10:07

not made enormous progress. But that night

10:09

for one reason or another, he decided

10:11

to film for YouTube videos. But that

10:13

night for one reason or another, he

10:15

decided to film for YouTube videos, essentially

10:17

just talking to his future self. One

10:19

of them was for six months into

10:21

the future, and then he did ten.

10:23

So his ten year one isn't even

10:25

out yet, isn't even out yet. But

10:27

basically, in the six-month one, he was

10:29

just, and it is interesting, the different

10:31

time frames, because when you're thinking about

10:33

your future self, six months from now,

10:35

it's a different conversation than if it's

10:37

five years into the future, and if

10:39

it's five years into the future, and

10:41

you could even see that if it's

10:43

five years into the future, and you

10:45

could even see that in his conversations,

10:47

and if it's five years into his

10:49

YouTube channel, but didn't set them to

10:51

go live. six months into the future,

10:53

the other one one year, five years.

10:55

And so he actually had forgotten that

10:57

he had filmed that. So in 2020

10:59

when the video came out, his YouTube

11:01

channel had like 45 million subscribers and

11:03

he had forgotten that he had filmed

11:05

it. In the video he said he

11:07

had forgotten that he had filmed it.

11:09

In the video he said he was

11:11

like heavily committed that he would become

11:13

a professional YouTube or by five years

11:15

into the future and that he would

11:17

have a million subscribers and he was

11:19

kind of desperately talking to his future.

11:21

watching the video and posting the comments

11:23

because he was like 45 million subscribers

11:25

by that point. He was massive and

11:27

you could see that he was not

11:29

the same person. And so I think

11:31

it was just a beautiful time capsule

11:33

to see like who he was and

11:35

just to see how how dramatic the

11:37

change was over that five-year period of

11:39

time. One of the things that I

11:41

did when I was like very heavily

11:43

studying him was you really can see

11:45

if you go back to when he

11:47

filmed those videos and then the videos

11:49

like shortly out there after. you can

11:51

see a difference. You can, from my

11:53

view, you can see like an extreme

11:55

difference in his commitment. those videos for

11:57

a reason. Like he was getting more

11:59

and more committed to his goal. He

12:01

had been doing it for four or

12:03

five years, but now he's being more

12:05

public with it. He's getting a lot

12:07

more thoughtful and ultimately like his video

12:09

started changing. And he did surpass his

12:11

six-month goals and then by the time

12:13

his year-long video came out he was

12:15

like way past where he projected himself

12:17

to be and then his his growth

12:19

curve just was massively exponential from there.

12:22

I'm curious about the second framework but

12:24

is that like a... a good example

12:26

for someone who's trying to understand future

12:28

self but then go to action with

12:30

it? Like is that the kind of thing

12:32

that people would do or they time

12:34

capsule themselves or like what are the

12:37

type of activities people do to actually

12:39

get into this practice? Yeah I mean

12:41

I think that that's a really good

12:43

one because that's a really good one

12:45

because that's essentially a letter to his future

12:47

self. It's just a it's like a vocal

12:49

letter and it's filmed and it's public which

12:51

adds so many and my wife even did

12:54

this. where basically a year into our

12:56

marriage, we decided to make a time

12:58

capsule. So we were a year into

13:00

our marriage and we made a time capsule

13:02

for our future selves at

13:04

our 10-year wedding anniversary, which

13:06

happened to be last year. And

13:08

so we opened that time capsule last

13:11

year. And so we opened that time

13:13

capsule, and I even forgot what was

13:15

in it. And so we actually filmed

13:17

videos, stuck them on flash drives, put

13:20

them in on Mason jar, wrote letters

13:22

to each other, saying, whatever, whatever, whatever,

13:24

whatever you want to say, we also

13:26

like had a shared document with our

13:28

goals and individual documents with our

13:30

goals. And so like that's, that's an example,

13:32

a lot of times in the, in the

13:35

research, there's a lot of research that basically

13:37

says it's actually a lot more effective rather

13:39

than like writing to your future self to

13:41

actually get into mindset of your future self

13:43

and write a letter from your future self

13:45

to you. Oh, interesting. And I have friends

13:47

who do this every year. Rather than filming

13:50

a video saying where they want to

13:52

be a year in the future, they'll

13:54

actually film a video as their future

13:57

self a year ahead and say, this is

13:59

what happened. And so they're kind

14:01

of speaking from the future back.

14:03

And I do that regularly, where I'll sit

14:05

in my journal, it could be three years

14:07

in the future, and I'll literally think about

14:10

the context of my future self. Think

14:12

about where I want to be, and

14:14

I will then write a letter as

14:16

my future self to me, who would

14:18

be my future self's past self, three

14:20

years. So I'm speaking, say, today is

14:22

sometime in September of 2023. So if

14:24

I want to do this myself, I could,

14:26

you know. back at the hotel or back at

14:29

my house, just sit in journal for, I

14:31

really don't think it needs to take that

14:33

long. Like you could just take 10 or

14:35

15 minutes, it's really a skill. I think

14:37

that the past and the future are skills,

14:39

you get good at like drafting them.

14:41

So you get better and better

14:43

at being flexible. There's a huge

14:45

concept in psychology called psychological flexibility.

14:48

And so a lot of this

14:50

has to do with your ability

14:52

to frame, reframe, see it from

14:54

a different angle, my view of

14:56

even today is going to change and

14:58

that in a week from now I'll have

15:00

different perspectives and so I don't need to

15:02

be so so clingy I guess you could

15:04

say to one angle but also that same

15:06

thing can be true of my future self

15:08

and so I think you become a lot

15:10

more flexible less rigid about you know needing

15:12

to do it right I can do it as a

15:14

draft just like I would draft a blog

15:16

post and so I can get into the

15:18

mindset really think about my future self think

15:20

about where I want to be and play with

15:22

it. I could play with my imagination, you

15:24

know, back to Einstein. And then I can

15:26

just, if I want to, get into the mindset

15:29

and just write myself a letter talking

15:31

to my past self back in 2023,

15:33

it being 2026, and just say, here's where

15:35

I'm at, here's what I advise to

15:37

you, Ben, or here's, you know, here's

15:39

the things that happened, here were the

15:41

big inflection points. I mean, you can

15:43

just honestly practice and you can get

15:45

good at it, and you can get good at

15:47

it, and you can get good at it. are

15:49

just tools for effectively operating in the present. I

15:52

mean it's kind of coming to mind now when you're

15:54

talking about your future self writing a letter to you

15:56

I almost had to stop and wrap my head around

15:58

this and I read it in your book. book, Victor

16:00

Frankl, saying, imagine you've, you're

16:03

already in the future, you've already lived

16:05

your life. And this moment is in

16:07

the past. Yep. And you're about to

16:09

make the mistakes you did then. I

16:12

found that framing so interesting, and hopefully

16:14

I'm getting it right. You are, yeah,

16:16

that's exactly what Frankl said. Yeah. And

16:18

so it's that idea of really looking

16:21

backwards, as opposed to projecting forward, has

16:23

more power in this psychology. Yeah, and

16:25

I think that when you are less

16:27

dogmatic about your current view of the

16:29

past, so how I view it is

16:32

that my past is a draft. And

16:34

so, and really that's how most, that's

16:36

how most psychologists would view it. Actually

16:38

not most, but that's how some psychologists

16:41

would view it is, is that the

16:43

past is actually a representation of who

16:45

I am now, is a representation of

16:47

my past. So I'll say that again. Basically,

16:49

my own past, yeah, because I

16:51

feel like that just blew my

16:54

mind. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So basically,

16:56

so when you're thinking about neuroscience,

16:58

and you're even just thinking about

17:00

memory in general, memory is

17:02

always a reconstruction in the

17:04

present. So if I was to think right

17:07

now, right now, so if I was to

17:09

think right now about last week, that would

17:11

be different than if I was thinking

17:13

about it a week from now. And

17:15

a week from now, I'll be slightly

17:17

different all of it. is basically what

17:19

is creating the past. Obviously, the past

17:22

influences who you are in the present.

17:24

It's kind of a circular. But memory

17:26

is always a reconstruction in

17:28

the present. And one of my favorite

17:30

psychologists, he wrote a book called Time

17:33

and Psychological Explanation, his name is Brent's

17:35

Life. But he said that it's more

17:37

accurate to say that the present causes the

17:39

meaning of the present. And so what

17:42

I take from that and what I've learned from

17:44

that is is that who I am in the

17:46

present. It's largely up to me what I

17:48

do with my past, how I frame it,

17:50

whether I utilize it or whether I

17:52

believe it's driving me. And I've learned

17:54

more and more to use my past

17:57

as a tool, but also to turn it into

17:59

an app. asset where I create more

18:01

and more value from it, where I

18:03

can learn more and more from

18:05

it. The only reason I bring this

18:07

up now is because I can

18:09

right here with you think back on

18:11

just the last 12 months and

18:13

I can think about my decisions. I

18:15

can think about what went well,

18:17

what could have gone differently. I can

18:19

analyze my decisions differently because I

18:21

can have hindsight. And so what Frankel's

18:23

inviting you to do is not

18:25

only get good at that, but to

18:27

get good at being in the

18:29

future and rather than moving forward in

18:31

time, you're letting the future look

18:34

backward in time so that you don't

18:36

have to make needless errors. I

18:38

mean, certainly we will all continue to

18:40

fumble our way forward, but you

18:42

can do it with a lot more

18:44

thought, a lot more insight. And

18:46

I apply this quite regularly. I even

18:48

share in that book how I

18:50

do it to be a lot more

18:52

present with my children just thinking

18:54

about, do I really want to have

18:56

this argument with my son? Like

18:58

is this really going to be worth

19:00

it in a week from now?

19:02

Is this something that's going be damaging

19:04

or how would my future self

19:06

want me to handle this? Even in

19:08

an hour from now, what would

19:10

my future self wish I had done

19:12

in this situation? And so it

19:14

just allows you to think about it

19:16

and be more thoughtful rather than

19:18

reactive. It's interesting, because when I was

19:20

reading your book on future self,

19:22

your book's on future self, one

19:25

of the things that came to mind

19:27

is this idea that, yeah, I love this

19:29

idea, but economists would also say, you

19:31

know, people are really trapped by their socioeconomic

19:33

realities. And true. And so, you know,

19:35

if you think about the average, not the

19:37

average, but, you know, 40

19:39

some percent of Americans, if they

19:42

get a thousand dollar bill, don't

19:44

know where that money comes from.

19:46

So it's this, you know, grandiose

19:48

idea to imagine your future self.

19:50

But you're so locked in the

19:52

present. And so it feels like

19:54

the way you're helping people reframe

19:56

their current experience and understand their

19:58

past differently. allows them to

20:00

project forward? Is that a fair way to

20:03

see it? Or how would you how would

20:05

you offer advice to somebody who feels

20:07

like this all sounds cool? Dr. Benjamin,

20:10

but I'm literally locked in the moment

20:12

right now and I don't have a

20:14

lot of headspace or slack in my

20:16

life to do anything otherwise. Yeah,

20:18

definitely. I mean I have six kids,

20:21

life can be busy, you know

20:23

what I mean? It's easy to

20:25

get caught in the present, and

20:28

honestly, that's the bias we actually

20:30

all have. So there's a lot

20:32

of research from Dr. Hal

20:34

Hirschfeld, he has studied the

20:36

future self concept or this

20:39

idea for 20 years. And

20:41

it's most common, honestly, for

20:43

us to downplay... How

20:45

they will feel so how Hirschfeld looks like

20:47

that he how he looks at that is

20:50

is a lack of empathy for your own

20:52

future self and so instead We we put

20:54

a magnifying glass on our current situation our

20:56

current emotions and even if I'm bored You

20:58

know I'm sitting at work. I may be

21:01

so bored That I magnify that emotion and

21:03

I make it a bigger deal than it

21:05

needs to be and then I'll go and

21:07

do something to distract myself right which may

21:09

be useful or maybe actually very negative for

21:12

myself even in 10 20 minutes And so

21:14

it's actually the bias to overly infatuate

21:16

on our present self. And the world

21:18

can be this way too. I mean,

21:20

the internet is very distracting. All sorts

21:23

of things are seeking to give us

21:25

immediate rewards. And so not

21:27

only do we have a bias

21:29

towards immediate rewards, but we also

21:31

just, we're more, I guess you could

21:33

just say we overly value our current

21:35

emotions and we tend to not worry

21:37

so much about our future self. And

21:39

so basically to... One thought I will say

21:41

to this person that you're describing is like

21:43

it's very common to get absorbed in the

21:46

present and to think that the present is

21:48

all that matters rather than to kind of

21:50

thoughtfully look at it, maybe get in touch.

21:52

And getting in touch with your future

21:54

self is very similar to just honestly

21:56

meditation. It's not the same as meditation,

21:58

but it could be. a form of meditation.

22:00

And so I would argue, if you're not

22:03

taking time regularly, even to just sit and

22:05

just like think for even like five or

22:07

10 minutes, but like that everything feels too

22:09

overwhelming, then you're, from my view, you're definitely

22:11

like probably off course. And like, so getting

22:13

connected to the future self, a lot of

22:15

it's just really about like, am I on

22:17

the right track? Am I on a track

22:20

I want to be on? Do I like

22:22

this? It's really a way of having conversations

22:24

with yourself. It's

22:26

very in line with just the whole

22:28

framework of important versus urgent, right? And

22:30

so it's like, if everything feels urgent

22:32

and you're not connected to what's important,

22:35

then you're probably not making massive strides

22:37

forward. You're probably on autopilot. You're probably

22:39

on the hamster wheel. So I think

22:41

it's extremely important, even if you feel

22:43

stressed, even if you feel busy, even

22:45

if you feel like you don't have

22:47

those five minutes to just go and

22:49

sit and sit in your journal and

22:51

just write all the things you should,

22:53

you probably need that more than anyone,

22:55

but you never reach a point when

22:57

you don't need that. You never reach

22:59

a point when you don't need those

23:01

10 minutes. It's a continuous process of

23:03

clarity and of making progress and of

23:05

learning to prioritize and learning self -awareness.

23:07

And so we all need it. We

23:09

can all get overly, overly absorbed in

23:11

the present by the stresses of it

23:13

and then downplay our future. So I

23:15

think it's very common. Yeah, yeah. I'm

23:17

just jotting this down, but I want

23:20

to ask in a moment about trauma,

23:22

because I feel like it adds a

23:24

bit of a different piece to it.

23:26

But two things are coming to mind

23:28

right now is, you know, if someone

23:30

had five minutes and wanted to start

23:32

this, like they're bought in, what

23:35

would, what would somebody do? I've got, I've got five

23:37

minutes of my day. That's all I got. What would

23:39

be the practice that I get into? I would honestly

23:41

actually start, if you only are going to give yourself

23:43

five minutes, period, flat, actually do it at night. Okay.

23:46

So do it at night.

23:48

And if you would or could,

23:50

so research shows that 90 %

23:53

of people procrastinate sleep by

23:55

just mindless scrolling. And so they're

23:57

literally procrastinating sleep and literally

23:59

putting their future self in a

24:01

whole the next morning because of mindless consumption.

24:03

So and we all you know that's very

24:05

common. And so it's in my view what

24:08

you do in the last hour of your

24:10

day is the most potent form of

24:12

habit formation. So like what we do

24:14

at night right before we sleep is

24:16

going to inform our habits way more

24:18

than any other period of the day.

24:20

And so a lot of huge huge

24:22

amount of research on this that if

24:24

you just simply at the end of your

24:27

day, pull out your journal. and just write

24:29

down three things from that day that you

24:31

are grateful for. It's so basic, but it's

24:33

shown dramatically to increase happiness and to

24:36

increase sleep quality. It just gets things

24:38

down, but also if you just give

24:40

yourself three to five minutes, a lot

24:43

of times because people are not practiced

24:45

at this, and I have different iterations

24:47

of this, I have, in my mind, a lot

24:49

deeper forms of reflection than just

24:51

simply writing what you're grateful for, but

24:53

this is like a start because it

24:56

trains people. to look back at the

24:58

day and to think about it. And to

25:00

just simply say, the initial reaction,

25:02

if I ask my older three kids

25:04

who are teenagers, what are you happy

25:06

about from the day or what are

25:08

you grateful for? Sometimes just say literally

25:11

nothing. And it's like, well, then think

25:13

about it. What happened today? What could

25:15

you be grateful for? And so by

25:17

actually thinking about it and pondering

25:19

it, they'll say, well, actually, you know,

25:22

that person at work was super nice

25:24

me. I'm grateful for that. So now

25:26

they're starting to take ownership of their

25:28

past. They're starting to create the frame.

25:30

They're starting to actually pull usefulness from

25:32

it. And so they can then think,

25:35

well, today actually was pretty great. Or

25:37

there was components of today that were

25:39

all right. And so just basically doing

25:41

that, that's a great start. My view. That's

25:43

a great start. My view is you

25:45

can take it a step further. Because

25:47

that would be kind of providing meeting

25:49

or kind of reshaping how you're interpreting

25:51

how you're interpreting how you're interpreting how

25:53

the day as useful. Yeah, yeah, okay,

25:56

okay. And so I think that idea

25:58

of like gratitude journals makes sense. I'm

26:00

curious how it connects to the future

26:02

self part, because look, you know, reflection

26:04

is a different mechanism than looking forward.

26:06

So then, what's that piece look like?

26:08

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I got you. Well,

26:10

so, so here's how I do it.

26:12

I actually don't do it in that

26:14

form, but that's like honestly basic. Like

26:17

if people really want to get started

26:19

and they only have five minutes and

26:21

they're not. So how I do it is, and

26:23

this is still starting with the night. How I do

26:25

it is at the end of who I was when

26:27

I woke up. The reason this is super

26:30

important, I know that this is not

26:32

future self, this is me again re-relating

26:34

to my past self, is that if

26:36

I thought about it, just like with

26:39

thinking about those three gratitudes,

26:41

if I actually think about

26:43

it, and I say, how am I a different

26:45

person than I was this morning, when

26:47

I woke up? The initial reaction

26:49

would be, I'm not, it's only been like

26:52

12 hours, how could I be different? But

26:54

if I really think about it, what

26:56

do I just woken up? And if I

26:58

actually think about it, just like gratitude,

27:00

I'm creating the frame of my past.

27:02

I actually can and do see that I

27:05

am different than my past self, even

27:07

12, 13 hours ago, or the night

27:09

before, 24 hours ago. And by actually

27:12

focusing on that, and by appreciating that,

27:14

I now acknowledge that I've changed, which

27:16

increases my psychological flexibility. It allows me

27:19

to see that I am not the same

27:21

person, that I am growing, that I am

27:23

evolving, which is really useful for then. Getting

27:25

skillful at re, you know, thinking of

27:27

your future self as a different person

27:29

if I'm different from who I was

27:31

24 hours from now Then it's it's

27:33

likely that my future self could be

27:35

different in 24 hours in positive meaningful

27:37

and even self-directed ways And so I just think

27:39

that it's really mastery of the past

27:41

is is very powerful for also developing

27:43

mastery of your future So I don't know

27:45

if you wanted to note that I'm very

27:48

happy to share starter points on getting connected

27:50

to the future self, but I just think

27:52

that it's It's incredibly useful

27:54

to recognize the differences between

27:56

your current and your path self

27:59

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near you. See store or sleep? You're

32:55

long away from the experience If if

32:57

the trauma is still impacting you then

33:00

you're still framing it such that it's

33:02

still actually happening Which is which is

33:04

really interesting. There is a lot of

33:06

research that even shows Obviously having a

33:09

conversation about it with someone is useful

33:11

Further research showing if you can just

33:13

think about what you learned from it.

33:15

So that's a big part of push

33:18

dramatic growth. I'm a lot more aggressive

33:20

about it frankly like I'm

33:22

regularly seeking to turn it into benefits

33:24

as fast as possible, which is if

33:26

it's along the lines of anti-fradual versus

33:29

fragile. So like anti-fradual is a framework

33:31

created by NACIM-TELED, but it's really about

33:33

how no matter what happens to you,

33:35

whether you're at a peak or in

33:37

a valley, whatever, if it's something negative.

33:39

you're as soon as possible turning it

33:41

into benefits, turning it into gains, would

33:44

be the language that we have used.

33:46

Oh yeah, anti-fradual means that it's the

33:48

opposite of fragile. So fragile means if

33:50

something negative happens, you know, you're worse

33:52

off as a result. It creates more

33:54

entropy into the future. And that's also

33:57

a view where the past is driving

33:59

the present. But if you recognize that

34:01

it's actually the present that drives the

34:03

past that you know And I'm talking

34:05

purely in psychological terms that it's the

34:07

present meaning of the past deeply Yeah,

34:09

it drives the framing of the past

34:12

the context which determines the content the

34:14

angle and so if I know that

34:16

Even if I You know this is

34:18

not as traumatic as we're talking about

34:20

PTSD although, you know, I've gone through

34:22

extreme trauma adopted three kids went through

34:25

the foster system who they've had trauma.

34:27

But even if I have a conversation,

34:29

say with my 15-year-old son, and it

34:31

just doesn't go well, like I honestly,

34:33

I don't handle it well, I have

34:35

a choice. Like I either can reshape

34:37

it, reshape the meaning of that conversation,

34:40

turn it into learning and growth, or

34:42

just let it be. And if I

34:44

don't do anything about it, then the

34:46

past is going to dictate the present

34:48

rather than the present dictating the past.

34:50

And so from my standpoint, it's just

34:53

very useful for me to know that

34:55

either on a time frame, so let

34:57

me just say like from here to

34:59

the last year, or specific events. I

35:01

have a lot of control over framing

35:03

what it means. What does my last

35:06

year mean? What was the good of

35:08

it? What was, you know. Do I

35:10

want to look at it from a

35:12

positive or from a negative, but also

35:14

specific events? My parents getting divorced, right?

35:16

Me being in a car crash, it

35:18

almost kills my mom, right? I can

35:21

think on certain events, and I can

35:23

say, well, there's one of two ways.

35:25

Either my present is shaping it or

35:27

it's shaping my present. And usually with

35:29

trauma, the past is still determining the

35:31

present. There isn't a lot of proactive

35:34

in the present taking control, approaching it.

35:36

wanting to do something about it. You

35:38

have, you can't, it's not going to

35:40

change in a positive way by chance.

35:42

It literally has to by choice. You

35:44

have to decide. You have to decide,

35:46

I'm going to do something about this,

35:49

I'm going to learn from this, I'm

35:51

not going. to keep seeing it the

35:53

same way. Can you say that again?

35:55

I think that that's always true with

35:57

trauma. So it's not gonna happen by

35:59

chance? No, and sometimes the tools are

36:02

above your pay grade. I get that.

36:04

Sometimes, sometimes, but that's also part of

36:06

choice is saying I may not have

36:08

the tools to do this. That fits

36:10

with Frankel directly as well, which is

36:12

when the why is strong enough. You

36:15

can bear anyhow, but for me. I'm

36:17

more interested in the research on hope

36:19

that talks about pathways thinking when the

36:21

why is strong enough you will find

36:23

the how. And often that means also

36:25

finding the who, finding people who can

36:27

give you the tools, the resources. And

36:30

so, yeah, if you're ready, you know,

36:32

and it takes time, you know, to

36:34

get to that place of commitment, but

36:36

it is a place of choice, you

36:38

have to choose to change what it

36:40

means, choose to change from it so

36:43

that you're not the same person. as

36:45

the one who experienced it. You know,

36:47

it could be the next morning. I'm

36:49

not the same person who had the

36:51

same conversation with my son where I

36:53

was actually not being very empathetic or

36:55

I was listening. I'm choosing to be

36:58

different and I'm choosing to be different

37:00

and I'm choosing to go and talk

37:02

to them about it and say, you

37:04

know, yesterday I was totally, I'm choosing

37:06

to be different and I'm choosing to

37:08

go and talk to them about it

37:11

and say, like, you know, can we

37:13

try that again again again? Now that's

37:15

reforming what we think about that conversation.

37:17

Obviously that's not to the extent of

37:19

the extreme forms of PTSD we're talking

37:21

about, but I think you do have

37:24

to go back. You have to go

37:26

back. You have to approach it. You

37:28

have to approach it. There's either approach

37:30

mindset or avoid mindset. You're either approaching

37:32

it or you're avoiding it. Everything is

37:34

approach or avoid. And at some point

37:36

you have to directly approach it. And

37:39

at some point you have to directly

37:41

approach it. I feel like I've got

37:43

so many questions forming, but you mentioned

37:45

it. Go ahead and throw it. I

37:47

mean, we can, we can, we can,

37:49

our second framework, you wanted to bring

37:52

up, and so I just want to

37:54

circle back. I mean, I don't know

37:56

if it's directly used. anymore. I think

37:58

that I just want to emphasize really

38:00

quickly what we're saying that the past

38:02

is either an asset or it's a

38:04

liability and if it's an asset that

38:07

means it's something that's continuing to pay

38:09

you more and more. You believe that

38:11

the present and future are better as

38:13

a result. That because of that experience

38:15

you're continuing to get kind of interest

38:17

in the present and future whereas if

38:20

it's a liability you believe it's continuing

38:22

to drain. You're present and future. And

38:24

that is all based on how you're

38:26

choosing to frame it, what you're choosing

38:28

to do with it. And in the

38:30

beginning, you may not feel like you

38:33

have choice in the matter. Like, how

38:35

could you see it any different? And

38:37

that's, like, the ability to get to

38:39

the point where you start to try.

38:41

And you start to believe that it's

38:43

possible. And then you start to work

38:45

on it. Maybe even start to get

38:48

help in looking at it from a

38:50

different angle. think that it was something

38:52

useful. Even if you find reasons, just

38:54

like finding things you're grateful for at

38:56

the end of the day, you've got

38:58

to actually exert some creativity on it.

39:01

You have to actually like, it is

39:03

creativity, just as much as creativity towards

39:05

your future. Because I think that those

39:07

were my questions, really, yeah, I had

39:09

a lot of questions, but where I

39:11

was kind of hung up coming into

39:13

the conversation was the power of the

39:16

past. And so what's been interesting in

39:18

this conversation is that it's is a

39:20

big part of what allows you to

39:22

have that kind of flexible psychology for

39:24

the future. I mean, it feels like

39:26

there's been a lot of discussion about

39:29

the past, almost to give you that

39:31

muscle, to now get into that place

39:33

where you can start to shape things

39:35

differently. And I think it's continuous. It's

39:37

not like you just master the past

39:39

and spend five years on that so

39:42

that we can now focus on the

39:44

future. I feel like it's daily, I'm

39:46

getting more and more connected from my

39:48

future self and operating from that filter,

39:50

but I'm also refiltering my past. refiltering

39:52

or reframing. So I do it daily.

39:54

And I think you can practice, you

39:57

know, empathy towards your pass-off, practice. looking

39:59

at an event that you consider traumatic

40:01

and asking what good could have come

40:03

from this or what good has come

40:05

from this. Just try it. Remember, it's

40:07

a draft. Tomorrow, maybe you'll have a

40:10

little bit more space to grab a

40:12

little bit more value from it if

40:14

you want to. And your future self

40:16

will see it from a different perspective.

40:18

You brought this term before gap mentality,

40:20

but I'd never heard it before. Can

40:22

you give me a sense of what

40:25

gap mentality means? Yeah, so this is

40:27

a framework that was initially created by

40:29

Dan Sullivan. Dan Sullivan being a guy

40:31

that I wrote three books with. He's

40:33

an entrepreneurial coach who's been coaching entrepreneurs

40:35

for 50 years. He's just very good

40:38

at creating frameworks. For me, I liked

40:40

his framework of the gap in the

40:42

game because it fits so much with

40:44

all the stuff we're just talking about

40:46

right now, which is a lot of

40:48

the core components of positive psychology. But

40:51

basically the gap in the gain framework

40:53

in simple terms is, and he works

40:55

directly with high achievers, but I feel

40:57

like it's relevant for all people. But

40:59

he does work specifically with really successful

41:01

entrepreneurs and what he found in just

41:03

observing them. He didn't do any research

41:06

or dig into the literature, but he

41:08

was just observing his clients who, you

41:10

know, paying him lots of money and

41:12

were high, high achieving entrepreneurs, but he

41:14

just noticed that. And he met with

41:16

them every 90 days. That was just

41:19

kind of the part of the process.

41:21

And he would notice very regularly that

41:23

they would downplay their success. And he

41:25

just wondered why. So he would ask

41:27

a various client, like, you know, what

41:29

happened in the last night, and they'd

41:31

say, you know, what happened in the

41:34

last night, and they'd say, on nothing

41:36

great. And he's like, so he would

41:38

ask a various client, like, you know,

41:40

what happened in the last night, and

41:42

they'd say, like, like, what happened, like,

41:44

you know, you know, you know, you

41:47

know, and we built a whole book

41:49

around it and I kind of developed

41:51

more of the psychology and the research

41:53

side behind it. But the idea of

41:55

the gap is just always measuring yourself

41:57

against the moving horizon, which is your

42:00

future self, honestly. But it's the less

42:02

defined future self. If it's just your

42:04

ideals. And those ideals might have come

42:06

from society, they might have been planted

42:08

in your mind by social media. But

42:10

we all have ideals. That's just what

42:12

we think we want. And high achievers

42:15

particularly, but I think people in general,

42:17

and I can explain to you how

42:19

even parents do this, or teachers, or

42:21

coaches, but we tend to measure ourselves

42:23

against that horizon, which is constantly moving.

42:25

If you're running towards the horizon, you

42:28

know, in the desert. you're never going

42:30

to get there. It's going to keep

42:32

going. And so it doesn't matter how

42:34

many steps you take towards it. If

42:36

you're always measuring yourself against it and

42:38

feeling like a loser for not being

42:40

there, then no matter where you are,

42:43

you'll feel like a loser. And that's

42:45

the tip, that's very common. In psychology,

42:47

they even call it the hedonic treadmill,

42:49

which destroys happiness, which is just always

42:51

measuring yourself against the next thing. And

42:53

so the gain is really the opposite.

42:56

as stated before in this conversation, operating

42:58

more and more as and filtering everything

43:00

I do from the lens of my

43:02

future self. But in terms of measuring

43:04

my progress, rather than measuring myself against

43:06

my future self, I'm actually measuring myself

43:09

backwards against my past self. And so

43:11

that's recognizing the gain. And so even

43:13

if I've, you know, even if today

43:15

didn't go so well, I can measure

43:17

myself against where I was the day

43:19

before and I can find gains. I

43:21

can find progress. As I said, how

43:24

did I learn something today. or how

43:26

have I progress in the last 12

43:28

months? And just writing it down. And

43:30

you can be really basic about this.

43:32

You can even just write it down

43:34

in bullets. Like seriously, at the end

43:37

of the week, just say, what key

43:39

progress did I make this week? What

43:41

were the positive experiences I had? Or

43:43

what were the important wins or the

43:45

important learnings? And if you just literally

43:47

write it down, this takes the whole

43:49

gratitude practice like multiple levels further. Where

43:52

you're like, because a lot of times

43:54

especially with high achievingiving people. They're so

43:56

focused on next, which is awesome, that

43:58

they don't take any time to actually

44:00

measure progress. And from a confidence standpoint,

44:02

confidence. is comes from achievements from the

44:05

past and it can propel the future

44:07

but if you're not actually measuring that

44:09

progress then you're missing so much value

44:11

and so it just it's a I

44:13

think it's an amazing dopamine kick it's

44:15

also just an amazing booster just to

44:18

actually like think what happened in the

44:20

last 90 days and when you tend

44:22

to do that you will you're also

44:24

training your brain what to see from

44:26

your past which creates expectations for what

44:28

you'll see in the future. So if

44:30

I train myself at the end of

44:33

every day to say what were three

44:35

important forms of progress today, again, I'm

44:37

training myself to look for those in

44:39

my past. In psychology, they call it

44:41

selective attention. So like I'm training my

44:43

brain to find things. We're always training

44:46

my brain to find things. You know,

44:48

we're always, you know, our brains are

44:50

all trained to find what we're looking

44:52

for. But you're training yourself to see

44:54

progress. And so those things then create

44:56

expectations for the future. As a parent,

44:58

I know I'm in the gap when

45:01

I'm, my son plays tennis. If I

45:03

just am always, you know, he plays

45:05

a tournament, loses, right? And I just

45:07

tell him all the things he could

45:09

have done better. Or even if he

45:11

won. I'm only telling him the things

45:14

he could have done better. He comes

45:16

home with his grades and is all

45:18

I see as the one B, right?

45:20

Like, I think it's very typical for

45:22

a coach, a teacher or a parent

45:24

to only see the gap. is that

45:26

that measuring stick is constantly moving. And

45:29

so if I'm doing that to my

45:31

son, then is all he feels for

45:33

me is where he's not showing up.

45:35

What I'm not doing is I'm not

45:37

telling him, hey Caleb, we can certainly

45:39

address those things, but I'm not showing

45:42

him, hey Caleb, we can certainly address

45:44

those things, but I'm not showing him

45:46

where he was three months ago, or

45:48

six months ago, and the fact is

45:50

that the progress has been dramatic. I

45:53

bet you a lot of parents are

45:55

going to hear that. It reminds me

45:58

you brought up a quote in your...

46:00

you're writing, I think it's an earnest

46:02

Hemingway quote, where he says, nobility is

46:04

not about being better than others. It's

46:07

about true nobility is about being better

46:09

than who you were. Yeah, totally. Has

46:11

nothing to do with other people. Yeah,

46:13

yeah. So, but this, this, this, this

46:16

idea of high achievers, what have you

46:18

found since exploring this idea of gap

46:20

or gain? Because if this idea of

46:22

the gap is a defining characteristic of

46:25

high achievers, is that actually what's allowing

46:27

them to be successful? happiness but lose

46:29

effectiveness or what have you found over

46:31

time? No, that's what they believe is

46:34

what's making them successful. Okay. Is that

46:36

they're never happy, they're never satisfied. It's

46:38

not actually what's, it's not actually a

46:40

factor. Like you can be in the

46:43

game, I can be in the game

46:45

and you will actually be more effective

46:47

for multiple reasons. First off you will

46:49

appreciate your progress, you will feel... You'll

46:52

feel good, like fundamentally feeling good is

46:54

beneficial for making progress. But it doesn't

46:56

kill ambition, it actually increases it over

46:58

time. But it increases intrinsic motivation rather

47:01

than extrinsic. I think often the gap

47:03

is trying to fill some hole from

47:05

unresolved trauma, bad relations with your parents,

47:07

or you know, often high achievers are

47:10

literally trying to fill a hole. And

47:12

so that hole is the gap that

47:14

they're trying to fill, and they'll never

47:16

feel it. It's an internal issue that

47:19

they're trying to fill with external accomplishments,

47:21

and they'll never actually fill it, and

47:23

so they'll never actually have a positive

47:25

relationship with themselves. Certainly it can fuel

47:28

all sorts of success, but the question

47:30

that you have is the question with

47:32

this topic, and the question is, if

47:35

you removed the gap, which you'll never

47:37

remove it, by the way. It's not

47:39

like you just... It's not like you

47:41

just... Flip a switch where you're never

47:44

going to go there. I go there

47:46

regularly, and I think it's a useful

47:48

tool to be in the gap I

47:50

think that you learn from it, but

47:53

you don't, you won't, you won't, you

47:55

won't be benefited by it until you

47:57

start turning it into a personal gain,

47:59

until you start turning it into meaning,

48:02

learning, growth. And what I get out

48:04

of the gain and what I see

48:06

others get out of it, and what

48:08

Dan has seen, you know, ultimately studying

48:11

this for 50 years, is that it

48:13

re-oriented yourself towards your progress and towards

48:15

your future, rather than needing it. Because

48:17

usually when you're in the gap, you

48:20

think you need the thing to be

48:22

worthy or to be successful. No matter

48:24

what you've accomplished in the past, none

48:26

of it matters because I need that

48:29

thing. And if you're operating out of

48:31

need, then it's an unhealthy attachment. Whereas

48:33

when you start living from a gain

48:35

perspective, not only do you increase the

48:38

value of who you are in the

48:40

present. Because you're in the same position,

48:42

whether you're in the gap of the

48:44

game. One makes your present feel like

48:47

trash, because it could have been something

48:49

else. If someone's in the gap, it

48:51

means that they believe their past should

48:53

have been something different. Because they're not

48:56

happy with where they're at. They should

48:58

be somewhere else. So being in the

49:00

game ultimately allows your past to be

49:02

valuable, to be useful. It also increases

49:05

the value of where you're at the

49:07

present, rather than starting at ground zero

49:09

every day. You're starting with rocket fuel

49:11

from your past. But again, how you

49:14

look at your past trains what you'll

49:16

expect from your future. So if I

49:18

feel phenomenal about my progress. All of

49:20

those things only boost my intrinsic motivation

49:23

towards what I most want, not what

49:25

I think I need. I don't need

49:27

any future achievements. But there's certain things

49:29

I absolutely want to do, and I

49:32

absolutely will go and get them, and

49:34

being in the gain allows you to

49:36

stop what you were just describing, needing

49:38

to be in any forms of comparison,

49:41

or even worrying about what anyone's opinion

49:43

is of my goals or of my

49:45

own progress. My progress is my own,

49:47

but also so is my goals. And

49:50

so for me, I feel it boosts.

49:52

It boosts healthy. a healthy fuel source

49:54

of intrinsic motivation, of wanting rather than

49:56

unhealthy attachment and thinking you need this

49:59

thing. which is going to be a

50:01

continuous rabbit hold in nowhere. That idea

50:03

of a need versus want. I've never

50:05

thought about that before. Because I would

50:08

frame a lot of things in that,

50:10

you know, the power of need. If

50:12

I can put it, like, it's that

50:14

important to me. I'm going to have

50:17

that much more to go towards it.

50:19

But you're saying that you almost lose

50:21

power. I think it's suffocating. I think

50:23

that it's, I think that it can

50:26

get you places for a while. It's

50:28

certainly a fuel source to think you

50:30

need. But I think over time getting

50:32

to a place where you pursue it

50:35

because you want it. It doesn't have

50:37

to be as weak. A lot of

50:39

times people think that it's weak, but

50:41

I mean, I can want something extremely,

50:44

and even be insanely committed to it

50:46

without thinking I need it. And my

50:48

fuel for it, my strategy for it

50:50

is not, I mean, I can strategize

50:53

for it just as powerful. One of

50:55

the things that's so cool about this

50:57

show is that You know shaped around

50:59

icons. It's not just people who have

51:02

great ideas It's also people who have

51:04

the street credit, but they've actually pulled

51:06

it off. They've actually done it They've

51:08

actually had the success what you know

51:11

I'm caught in your story in the

51:13

sense that you've got six children You've

51:15

written eight books at a young age.

51:17

I mean you are producing at a

51:20

high level and and one of the

51:22

articles that you read that you wrote

51:24

that went viral was around kind of

51:26

the 8020 principle flush that out for

51:29

me because I just think that for

51:31

people who again feel like all of

51:33

this sounds great but I'm flat out

51:35

like I don't have the time to

51:38

create space for any of the stuff

51:40

we're talking about. What's the concept around

51:42

8020 and how could maybe they apply

51:44

that to get more flexibility? So the

51:47

unique angle on 8020 that I feel

51:49

like Dan Sullivan and I contributed was

51:51

around 10x versus 2x thinking. So we've

51:54

been talking about gap and gain. Again,

51:56

one of the beauties of Dan's thinking

51:58

is he thinks in terms of like

52:00

opposites. And so when we were writing

52:03

that book, 10x is easier than 2x,

52:05

we were really going deep into the

52:07

conversations between a future orientation or a

52:09

past orientation. So just to get it

52:12

super simple, then we'll go into the

52:14

80-20 of it. If you're going for

52:16

a 2x mindset. 2x growth in anything,

52:18

right? It's very linear. It's very

52:20

much taking the past and the

52:23

present and projecting that into the

52:25

future. So it's like, you know,

52:27

this is, and really you don't

52:29

have to transform that much to

52:32

go for 2x growth. You're really

52:34

just continuing more of what you're

52:36

doing, and it's pretty predictable. Like,

52:39

you may have to make various

52:41

tweaks, and it's also a future

52:43

mindset. back to imagination, back to

52:46

our understand where you're letting the

52:48

future frame what you do in the

52:50

present. And so 10x is a future

52:52

orientation towards the present, whereas 2x

52:54

is a present orientation towards the future.

52:57

You're letting the present dictate what you

52:59

do in the future, whereas 10x is

53:01

a future model that you're utilizing in

53:04

the present to decide what you do.

53:06

And that's even in a basic way.

53:08

what the research on future self says. And this is

53:10

a lot more basic. I mean, when we're going

53:12

to go into 8020, it's more technical. But the

53:14

basics of future self is is getting connected to

53:17

your future self, such that you let the future

53:19

self dictate what you do in the present, whether

53:21

that means making the healthy choice, whether that means

53:23

being kind, whether that means beginning to invest in

53:25

your future, right? So when it comes to like

53:27

scaling that to a 10X level, and now going

53:30

into the 8020, there's just a framework that we

53:32

made for that we made for that we made

53:34

for that we made for that we made for that

53:36

we made for that we made for that book.

53:38

But basically, if you're going to go for

53:40

2X of anything, you can keep 80% of

53:42

your life. You really don't have to transform.

53:44

If I'm going for two times the book

53:47

sales that I had last year, most of

53:49

my strategy that I'm applying right now

53:51

can work. And so you really can keep

53:53

80% of your life, 80% of your habits,

53:56

80% of your mindset. You can just, to

53:58

go 2X, you just transform 20%. That means

54:00

maybe try a different strategy, get a

54:02

different employee or work harder. And so

54:04

the 10X is going to be the

54:06

opposite. The future is so big that

54:08

the filter is so high that the

54:11

filter is so high that 80% of

54:13

what you're doing now won't get you

54:15

to 10X. That's the main idea. And

54:17

this comes from a lot of the

54:19

research from constraint theory. A lot of

54:21

it from Dr. Allen- Bernard who studied

54:23

the idea of impossible goals that if

54:25

you're there's too many options to get

54:27

there. You could do a thousand different

54:29

things to grow your business by 10%.

54:31

But if you want to grow by

54:33

10x, almost nothing would work. It's just

54:35

too big. And almost everything you're doing

54:38

right now, call it 80% or more,

54:40

would be filtered out. It's a distraction.

54:42

It's in the 80% using the 8020

54:44

principle. And so I find that it's

54:46

very difficult to deploy the 8020 principle

54:48

without huge goals. I mean you can

54:50

do it. You can honestly just, you

54:52

know, and this is more like Tim

54:54

Ferrisish, but you could just look at

54:56

your life and just analyze, like, you

54:58

know, the 20% of the people in

55:00

your life that are creating 80% of

55:02

your stress. For me, I look at

55:05

it more like 80% of my life

55:07

as my past self. And only like,

55:09

only 20% that best 20% with the

55:11

most upside is relevant to my call

55:13

it my 10x feature self. And those

55:15

are the areas I want to go

55:17

deep on. And this, like all things,

55:19

is a skill, but what I think

55:21

is great with it is like I

55:23

know that 80% of what I do

55:25

with my time is mostly maintenance at

55:27

this point. It's maintaining the status quo.

55:30

Or it's literally holding me back. It

55:32

could be bad habits, distractions, addictions. 80%

55:34

of my life right now is not

55:36

moving me forward. Very marginally. And effectiveness

55:38

when it comes to decision making and

55:40

even like using your time well and

55:42

learning. is recognizing the things in your

55:44

life that aren't moving you forward, and

55:46

then, and that's part of the reflection,

55:48

and saying, okay, these aren't moving me

55:50

forward. what are the few things that

55:52

are, or where can I find those

55:54

new pathways? And so I think it's

55:57

very useful to find the 20% or

55:59

to let the future dictate the 20%

56:01

and then to just focus your attention

56:03

more and more on that and to

56:05

let go of more and more, that

56:07

takes commitment. It takes courage to strip

56:09

out that. But as you do that,

56:11

you're literally letting go of your past

56:13

self and your attention is going deeper,

56:15

which is really what creates massive growth.

56:17

Because that was my immediate immediate reaction.

56:19

80-20 towards my identity? Yeah, that's what

56:22

it is. That's how I see it.

56:24

That's how I see it. That's terrifying

56:26

and exciting. Like, well, I can feel

56:28

it to me just even thinking about

56:30

it. Yeah, I mean, so I used

56:32

the example of Michael Angelo in that

56:34

book, 10x is easier than 2x. And

56:36

Michael Angelo was describing to the Pope,

56:38

how he created the David statue, and

56:40

he just said I stripped away everything

56:42

that was not David. I took away

56:44

everything that's not David. call it the

56:46

10x version of your future stuff. The

56:49

next level version of your future self

56:51

is that. And to get there, you

56:53

strip away everything that's not that. And

56:55

that is ultimately, in this language, 80%

56:57

of who you are right now, which

56:59

can be terrifying, like you said. But

57:01

back to the idea of psychological flexibility

57:03

is that the 80% of your life

57:05

right now is what got you here,

57:07

but it's not what's going to get

57:09

you there. Even phenomenal things. I'll use

57:11

myself as an example as an example.

57:14

When I was in my first year

57:16

of my PhD program, I really want

57:18

to be a professional author. And so,

57:20

that was my quote unquote 10x, that

57:22

was my David, right, on that stage

57:24

of time. And so by clarifying the

57:26

goal, I was able to, right, on

57:28

that stage of time. And so by

57:30

clarifying the goal, I was able to

57:32

identify the 20% that would give me

57:34

that goal. I can't do a thousand

57:36

things to become a professional author. I

57:38

can only do a few things that

57:41

are a few things that are deeply

57:43

on various platforms. Those were the things

57:45

that were very directly related to that

57:47

goal. That was the 20% that if

57:49

I focused on and got really good

57:51

at went deep on. call it got

57:53

10 times better at the 20% and

57:55

like over the 80 which was my

57:57

university position and I was the only

57:59

person in my PhD program that paid

58:01

tuition because I didn't do those things

58:03

I was focused on my 20% and

58:06

so but the point is is that

58:08

when I actually did get 10 times

58:10

better and I did achieve that goal

58:12

I became my new version of the

58:14

future self well then at that new

58:16

position I had a different future self

58:18

and it wasn't just continuing what I

58:20

was on blogging which was deep in

58:22

my 20% went into my 80% it

58:24

got me here but it won't get

58:26

me there that was my past self

58:28

and I think one of the difficult

58:30

things is that when when your past

58:33

is good like when you've had when

58:35

you've been making progress to let go

58:37

because you're still letting the future dictate

58:39

what you do not the past even

58:41

if it was an excellent past that's

58:43

growing you phenomenally and I'm you know

58:45

in recent past you know even just

58:47

describing these books I wrote with Dan

58:49

like it got to the point where

58:51

my future self and using the future

58:53

as the filter was like, you know,

58:55

if this doesn't change so that it's

58:58

10x, then this is also more a

59:00

reflection of my past and my future.

59:02

And so, you know, ultimately the collaboration

59:04

came to a conclusion and we're all

59:06

in the gain about it, we're all

59:08

in the gain about it, we're all

59:10

stoked about it, but it was phenomenal.

59:12

It had a lot of momentum. We

59:14

could have kept doing more books, but

59:16

that's the past. And if you're operating

59:18

2X, you're letting the past and present

59:20

dictate dictate dictate what you do in

59:22

the way you do in the way

59:25

you do in the future. Whereas if

59:27

you're operating 10x, you're always thinking about

59:29

the 10x future and letting the future

59:31

dictate what you do in the present.

59:33

And if it's a 10x future, then

59:35

the filter is really fine. Meaning that

59:37

only 20% or less is relevant. Even

59:39

some of the great things you're doing.

59:41

And so that's one of the reasons

59:43

why it's beautiful is that it invites

59:45

you to think creatively and invite you

59:47

to make commitments and let go of,

59:49

maybe even the things that no longer

59:52

fit the 10x future. I

59:54

feel like I'm so caught on just two

59:56

things that are doing. Let's hear it. The

59:58

fact that master of your past. is that

1:00:00

you get so good at your past, you

1:00:03

shape your past, or the meaning of your

1:00:05

past, it's that it doesn't dictate your future.

1:00:07

Yes. And your future is the David, and

1:00:09

you're stripping away everything that's not done. Yeah,

1:00:11

so how I look at it is, and

1:00:14

I kind of do it in this way,

1:00:16

where I think about the present as the

1:00:18

circle that we're living in, and overlapping you've

1:00:20

got the future, right? So for me, the

1:00:23

future is what dictates who I am and

1:00:25

what I do in the present. Not the

1:00:27

present dictates who I'm going to be in

1:00:29

the future, right? So the future is the

1:00:32

filter for my present and my present is

1:00:34

my filter for the past I think a

1:00:36

lot of people just like gotten that crystal

1:00:38

clear Yeah, I mean that's that's a skill

1:00:41

most people do it the opposite way We're

1:00:43

trained the opposite way we're trained that the

1:00:45

past is the past is driving me. That's

1:00:47

even how psychology was as a discipline for

1:00:50

a hundred years Is that the past is

1:00:52

you know dictating who you are is all

1:00:54

I got to just look at your history?

1:00:56

and the history is what has determined who

1:00:58

you are, you're just a domino, you know,

1:01:01

essentially determinism, but also most people when they're

1:01:03

in the present, even businesses, and you know,

1:01:05

I train now CEOs and business leaders, even

1:01:07

companies doing really good, like big things, and

1:01:10

even after training them on this, they will

1:01:12

still default to linear approaches to the future

1:01:14

where they're letting the current conditions decide what

1:01:16

they'll go for in the future. It's like,

1:01:19

no, no, no, no, no, remember, we're, we're

1:01:21

going to make we're going to make a

1:01:23

very big future, fairly impossible right now and

1:01:25

we're gonna let that dictate what we do

1:01:28

in the present. We're gonna let that dictate

1:01:30

the few things we're gonna focus on and

1:01:32

openly dictate the things that we know aren't

1:01:34

relevant up there anymore, the things that we've

1:01:36

got to change. You know, if you want

1:01:39

to go for that, if you choose to

1:01:41

go for that. So some of the questions

1:01:43

we ask everyone who comes in the show

1:01:45

is what advice would you give your 20

1:01:48

year old self? And maybe the tag to

1:01:50

that is, and would you have listened? Would

1:01:53

my 20 year old self have

1:01:55

listened? Yeah. I mean, it's a

1:01:57

good invite to say am I

1:01:59

listening to what my future self

1:02:01

is asking? Right? It's like, it

1:02:03

fits within this conversation. Yeah. I

1:02:06

don't know if I would say

1:02:08

anything to be honest with you

1:02:10

as weird as it sounds. I

1:02:12

know that's probably, the more interesting

1:02:14

of what I would say to

1:02:16

my 20-year-old self is how in

1:02:18

the present am I looking at

1:02:20

my 20-year-old self. I know that

1:02:22

may sound weird, but... I have

1:02:25

the option in the present to

1:02:27

look at my 20-year-old self in

1:02:29

a ton of different ways. And

1:02:31

I may end up changing this

1:02:33

answer along the way. But who

1:02:35

was at age 20? I was

1:02:37

literally getting ready to go and

1:02:39

serve a church mission. I really

1:02:41

don't think this may sound like

1:02:44

anything I could say now. That's

1:02:46

not true. I wouldn't say anything

1:02:48

to them, honestly. I think that

1:02:50

the main things are most of

1:02:52

ourselves needed is assurance. And you

1:02:54

know, that's pretty cliche, but just

1:02:56

assurance that they're on the right

1:02:58

path or that they're doing, you

1:03:00

know, that they're going to be

1:03:03

fine. We typically even need that

1:03:05

now that everything's going to be

1:03:07

okay. We often are just questioning

1:03:09

the uncertainty of the future, whereas

1:03:11

obviously it's not uncertain to me

1:03:13

anymore. But yeah, I wouldn't say

1:03:15

anything to my past self. Mainly

1:03:17

for me it's about getting better

1:03:19

and better at being proud of

1:03:22

my past self. Like something I

1:03:24

heard recently from someone just that

1:03:26

I know is that they feel

1:03:28

like their past self is their

1:03:30

hero, which I think is actually

1:03:32

really cool. Because I wouldn't be

1:03:34

where I'm at if it wasn't

1:03:36

for the decisions my past self

1:03:38

made. Certainly like the hard work.

1:03:41

the things that they went through.

1:03:43

And so even though I'm different

1:03:45

from my past self, even though

1:03:47

I would do things very different

1:03:49

from even the 20-year-old self that

1:03:51

I'm talking to, I owe that

1:03:53

version of me a huge amount

1:03:55

for the decision. as they made.

1:03:57

What advice do you think your

1:04:00

20-year-old would have given you? My

1:04:02

20-year-old self could give me a

1:04:04

huge amount of advice, honestly. That

1:04:06

would be useful. I think my

1:04:08

20-year-old self, I think that they

1:04:10

would, they would be shocked. They'd

1:04:12

be extremely proud of me. I

1:04:14

think that they would be surprised

1:04:16

by... me having six kids a

1:04:19

PhD. I certainly at 20 years

1:04:21

old, I had just flopped out

1:04:23

of trying community college for the

1:04:25

first time. I'd barely graduate high

1:04:27

school. And so like, I had

1:04:29

no view of myself getting a

1:04:31

college degree, let alone a PhD.

1:04:33

And so, but even still, I

1:04:35

think that they would, I think

1:04:38

my my past self 20-old self

1:04:40

would probably tell me to have

1:04:42

more fun. Honestly, they'd probably tell

1:04:44

me to have more fun. They'd

1:04:46

re-remind me of little things that

1:04:48

matter, that could still matter and

1:04:50

that maybe should matter more. It's

1:04:52

funny, as you say that, we

1:04:54

were asking ourselves this question today.

1:04:57

We've never really flipped it that

1:04:59

way. And that was what came

1:05:01

back to me. I thought about

1:05:03

it for a while. I thought,

1:05:05

I think my 20-year-old self would

1:05:07

say, chill out. And yeah, the

1:05:09

question is, will I listen? You

1:05:11

know, it's that, you know, if

1:05:13

you think about it from a

1:05:16

future self, will I listen now,

1:05:18

perspective? But from a, you know,

1:05:20

that advice can be shaping in

1:05:22

lots of ways too, would I

1:05:24

listen? I think what I like

1:05:26

about what you're saying is that

1:05:28

I have a lot I could

1:05:30

learn from my future self, but

1:05:32

I also have a lot I

1:05:35

could learn from my past self.

1:05:37

And the question is, is am

1:05:39

I listening to my listening to

1:05:41

my experience, right? rituals, routines. What

1:05:43

are the ways that you block

1:05:45

out your day? in terms of

1:05:47

habits, rituals, how do you do

1:05:49

it? So I recently thought about

1:05:51

my 2015 self, because that was

1:05:54

when I was blogging, and I

1:05:56

actually was more interested in habits

1:05:58

and routines back then than I

1:06:00

am now. And so I would

1:06:02

say my, I actually reviewed an

1:06:04

article I wrote back in 2015

1:06:06

that was read 20 million times,

1:06:08

and it was about the eight

1:06:10

things that I did before 8

1:06:13

AM. And I literally reviewed them

1:06:15

and thought to myself, how do

1:06:17

I look differently at time than

1:06:19

my past self did? I'd say

1:06:21

the fundamental thing that I believe

1:06:23

to be different is that rather

1:06:25

than trying to optimize for a

1:06:27

day, I'm way more interested. So

1:06:29

rather than trying to do the

1:06:32

same thing every day to a

1:06:34

certain event or to a certain

1:06:36

extent, I think a lot more

1:06:38

holistically than... maybe like atomistically. And

1:06:40

so I have a big picture

1:06:42

future self, but also if I'm

1:06:44

even thinking in terms of between

1:06:46

now and the end of the

1:06:48

year, right? That's going to deeply

1:06:51

inform, like, so think about like

1:06:53

a quarter, like the next 90

1:06:55

days ahead. That's going to inform

1:06:57

my strategy a lot more than

1:06:59

just what I want to accomplish

1:07:01

today. I feel like habits are

1:07:03

great. We all have habits, but

1:07:05

my habits for the next 90

1:07:07

days are going to look really

1:07:10

different from the habits I had.

1:07:12

in the last 90 days. And

1:07:14

so I think bigger picture, there's

1:07:16

a book that I read when

1:07:18

I was writing, 10X is easier

1:07:20

than 2X, that really inform my

1:07:22

thinking. It was called Catching the

1:07:24

Big Fish. And Catching the Big

1:07:26

Fish is all about consciousness and

1:07:29

creativity. And he compares our consciousness

1:07:31

to the ocean. And about how

1:07:33

if you're up at the surface,

1:07:35

is all you can see is

1:07:37

small fish. And it takes going

1:07:39

really, really, really, really, really deep

1:07:41

to start seeing the big fish.

1:07:43

And so that changed how I

1:07:45

look at flow and how I

1:07:48

look at routines in general. I

1:07:50

think in the past, I was...

1:07:52

interested more in what I would

1:07:54

call cheap flow versus deep flow.

1:07:56

So like for me cheap flow

1:07:58

is like get into a flow

1:08:00

state for like 30, you know,

1:08:02

even 90 minutes and create some

1:08:04

quick output which for me is

1:08:07

now what I would consider up

1:08:09

at the shallow. Like yes I

1:08:11

can create results but it's not

1:08:13

it's not the deep enough work

1:08:15

that is ultimately going to create

1:08:17

something that could have a monumental

1:08:19

impact. Yeah, you can get good

1:08:21

at writing, viral articles and stuff

1:08:23

like that, but none of those

1:08:26

viral articles are going to be

1:08:28

innovative. Like truly, like they're going

1:08:30

to be shallow work. Like, I

1:08:32

mean, they could be innovative compared

1:08:34

to other blog posts, but you've

1:08:36

got to go really, really deep

1:08:38

as a way of life to

1:08:40

do things that are very powerful,

1:08:42

very useful. And so I now

1:08:45

look at. at things more holistically

1:08:47

where it's like rather than seeing

1:08:49

how much I can accomplish today

1:08:51

it's more like what two or

1:08:53

three big fish am I trying

1:08:55

to accomplish this month which if

1:08:57

I you know design my weeks

1:08:59

around those it could be you

1:09:01

know finishing a few chapters of

1:09:04

my book it could be going

1:09:06

in traveling with my could it

1:09:08

could be a certain goal related

1:09:10

to my work but it's a

1:09:12

lot bigger picture and so now

1:09:14

my rather than doing the same

1:09:16

routine every single day it's more

1:09:18

like big things I want to

1:09:20

do, and then designing the week

1:09:23

around those. So it's a lot

1:09:25

more about deep focus and even

1:09:27

deep recovery rather than doing the

1:09:29

same thing every single day, like

1:09:31

the same wake-up routine. And so,

1:09:33

like, as an example, this week

1:09:35

may look different than next week.

1:09:37

This week actually looks really different

1:09:39

since I'm in California. But, like,

1:09:42

say this was a week where

1:09:44

I was focused on my book.

1:09:46

I'd probably have three days with

1:09:48

zero things on my calendar, and,

1:09:50

like, I would... be really deep

1:09:52

on the book and then I

1:09:54

would have a full day off

1:09:56

somewhere in the middle for recovery

1:09:58

and then maybe a few meetings

1:10:01

like on a Friday. But it's

1:10:03

possible that I'm not in that

1:10:05

phase where I'm writing a book.

1:10:07

Maybe I'm working on some other

1:10:09

goal or some other project. So

1:10:11

yeah, I'm more interested in depth

1:10:13

and accomplishing less to greater effect

1:10:15

rather than trying to do the

1:10:17

same thing every day. Interesting. And

1:10:20

so do you worry? Yeah, because

1:10:22

do you worry, I mean to

1:10:24

put it in the context of

1:10:26

2X10X, do you worry that getting

1:10:28

two habit-based to ritual-based keeps you

1:10:30

in the 2X? I think habits

1:10:32

as a concept. Like if you

1:10:34

actually study deliberate practice, deliberate practice

1:10:36

is an antidote to two habits.

1:10:39

It's certainly like you can be

1:10:41

in the habit of going out

1:10:43

of your comfort zone. But like

1:10:45

deliberate practice as a concept means

1:10:47

you are not doing things the

1:10:49

same way you did them yesterday.

1:10:51

You're always trying new things. You're

1:10:53

always pushing beyond the boundaries. And

1:10:55

so obviously we all have habits,

1:10:58

but for me habits are a

1:11:00

reflection of your current and your

1:11:02

past self. You know, and you

1:11:04

certainly don't have the same habits

1:11:06

as your future self. That doesn't

1:11:08

mean that I don't do things

1:11:10

regularly. I read books regularly. I

1:11:12

write my journal regularly. So I

1:11:14

guess you could call those habits.

1:11:17

But I'm not doing them mechanistically.

1:11:19

I'm not doing them the same

1:11:21

way every time. And so yeah,

1:11:23

I'm very less interested in habits

1:11:25

and more interested in, honestly, like

1:11:27

what's required for what I'm trying

1:11:29

to accomplish now. which is going

1:11:31

to look different than what I'm

1:11:33

doing next year. And so I'm

1:11:36

far more interested in, like, what

1:11:38

is the priority? What are we

1:11:40

trying to accomplish? What's the core

1:11:42

focus? So that's how I look

1:11:44

at it. Let's go to, you

1:11:46

know, the 100-year-old future self. What

1:11:48

do you hope your legacy is?

1:11:50

I mean, I think the main

1:11:52

things that matter to me. are,

1:11:55

you know, and I think my

1:11:57

future self will have a much

1:11:59

different answer. Banking

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