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to the Rest is to Restis

0:21

Politis Question Time with me, the Campbell is

0:23

with me, Rory Stewart. Now Rory, we did

0:25

quite a lot of of overseas politics in

0:28

the main podcast. we We were going to

0:30

talk about this, we but we out of

0:32

ran out of time, but let's start with

0:34

this. Timothy Baker, Baker be great you could touch

0:36

on some of the parallels between what's

0:38

going on in Georgia and Venezuela at

0:40

the moment. at the moment countries seem

0:42

to be in the grip

0:44

of the grip of democratic with elections

0:47

widely widely recognises invalid next for

0:49

the two countries? Okay, well, let let

0:51

me start on Georgia. So this

0:53

is an opportunity to encourage people

0:55

who haven't heard it, the

0:57

very, very courageous, originally French originally

0:59

of Georgia, of this remarkable woman

1:01

who woman who, to of a sort of astonishment and

1:03

of fluent is a sort of fluent to

1:05

Georgia who then became the Georgian

1:08

foreign minister and then the Georgian

1:10

president the Georgian been holding out at

1:12

these elections been what happened in the

1:14

elections is the Georgian dream party

1:16

in is a pro is the Georgian party

1:18

which has been been... cussing down on

1:20

civil society and dissent and is

1:22

backed by an oligarch called Yves

1:24

called the election in very, very

1:26

dubious circumstances. and

1:28

there is a very simple demand being

1:31

made by people protesting on the street. protesting

1:33

is for a new set of elections. a

1:35

new set And she was hanging on to

1:37

push for those new elections for we

1:39

have for weeks now trying to encourage. trying

1:41

to encourage nations to engage and

1:43

take seriously the fact seriously the fact

1:45

years Georgia has been an unusual.

1:48

pro-Western in the Caucasus,

1:50

and it's about a fall into the

1:52

hands of Putin, giving him a key

1:54

strategic. a key strategic location

1:56

linking the Black Sea and

1:59

the Caspian, Iran. Russia, Turkey and Russia,

2:01

and it's really depressing. Anyway, over

2:03

to you and what she thought

2:05

of it. So when we interviewed

2:07

her, we asked what she was

2:09

going to do when the new

2:11

president, this former Manchester City footballer,

2:14

was sworn in, who is a

2:16

kind of pro-putin, even if you

2:18

leave place person. And she said,

2:20

I'm not going to answer that

2:22

question. And I thought at the

2:24

time that was because she was

2:26

going to stay put in the

2:28

presidential residence, but she didn't. She

2:30

made a speech. And she said

2:32

she said she's leaving. She's leaving.

2:35

She's leaving. but she is urging

2:37

people not to recognise this new

2:39

guy, not to accept the outcome

2:41

of the elections. But what worries

2:43

me, to be absolutely frank, is

2:45

that it wasn't, I don't think,

2:47

as much on the international radar

2:49

as it should have been anyway,

2:51

but it's even less so now.

2:54

There's so much other stuff happens

2:56

in the world. And these things

2:58

just have a habit of kind

3:00

of dribbling away. So I hope

3:02

she's saying strong. I hope that

3:04

the people of Georgia are staying

3:06

strong, but I think it's going

3:08

to be pretty difficult. Just very

3:10

quickly on that. So the Americans

3:12

have stepped up quite strongly on

3:15

this. I mean, the US is

3:17

still, for all its problems, is

3:19

still trying to think strategically about

3:21

what Putin's trying to do. And

3:23

what Putin's basically doing is trying

3:25

to reverse most of the last

3:27

20-30 years in what he's doing

3:29

in Ukraine, what he's trying to

3:31

do in Moldova. what he's doing

3:34

in the Caucasus, you know, Georgia,

3:36

etc. And the Americans have responded

3:38

by imposing sanctions on Ivan Shvili.

3:40

But most of its money is

3:42

in Europe. So the question is,

3:44

will the Europeans follow suit? If

3:46

they did, that would be a

3:48

real squeeze. And they've been trying

3:50

to, but of course we have,

3:52

because the European Union, the way

3:55

that operates, back to our friend

3:57

Mr. Orban, Mr. Fiso in Slovakia.

3:59

possibly soon to be joined by

4:01

another pro-putin leader in Mr. Kekken

4:03

in Austria, they have vetoed attempts

4:05

to be tougher. And that's why

4:07

we keep talking about it, but

4:09

if... If this is going to

4:11

begin happening in the European Union,

4:14

the European leaders are going to

4:16

have to get more accustomed to

4:18

forming smaller groups, which could include

4:20

the United Kingdom on an issue

4:22

like this. So no reason why

4:24

France, Sweden, the UK, couldn't have

4:26

been involved. Very disappointing that the

4:28

German Foreign Minister didn't visit Georgia,

4:30

but instead decided to make this

4:32

rather awkward visit to Syria, when

4:35

in fact... they could have much

4:37

more influence on Georgia because Georgia

4:39

is a European Union candidate state

4:41

in a way that Syria isn't.

4:43

And I think this is a

4:45

terrible sense. They've given up and

4:47

they're using the fact that Fiso

4:49

and Orban and the Slovaks are

4:51

blocking. They've also basically given up

4:54

on the idea of sanctions. They

4:56

seem not to believe that they

4:58

work anymore. I can see a

5:00

real opportunity if they can just

5:02

lift their heads, follow the US

5:04

and impose the sanctions. We may

5:06

be able to have another set

5:08

of elections in Georgia and fair

5:10

enough if the Georgian Dream wins

5:12

the elections fairly, that's fair enough.

5:15

UK did impose sanctions on some

5:17

of these people who are involved

5:19

in the crackdowns which were pretty

5:21

brutal and fair play to the

5:23

people in Georgia who are still

5:25

out there protesting. But these things

5:27

have a habit of going away

5:29

unless the international focus remains on

5:31

them. Venezuela. So, Maduro, it's another

5:34

election where nobody really believes that

5:36

Maduro won it, just as nobody

5:38

believes that the Georgian Dream had

5:40

the result that they announced, but

5:42

Maduro has announced that he's won,

5:44

the electoral commission has insisted that

5:46

he's won, they have put out,

5:48

there's a reward for a hundred

5:50

thousand dollars for information leading to

5:52

the capture of Gonzales who actually

5:55

won. who has fled to Spain,

5:57

but has then now come back

5:59

and is going on this very

6:01

interesting tour. He's been to Argentina,

6:03

he's going to Uruguay, he's been

6:05

to several Latin American countries. interesting

6:07

how when we do get the

6:09

it's on Friday I think January

6:11

the 10th when Maduro sworn in

6:14

for another term very very few

6:16

world leaders are going to be

6:18

there I think he might he

6:20

might have decent representation from Russia

6:22

he might have decent representation from

6:24

Iran from Cuba but essentially most

6:26

of the big powers are either

6:28

sending an ambassador or not sending

6:30

any of you at all. The

6:32

other thing is really horrific about

6:35

what's going on in in Venezuela.

6:37

So there's the guy who's won

6:39

the election, who is, you know,

6:41

frankly, if you does a reappear

6:43

in Venezuela, he's going to get

6:45

banged up. And the woman who

6:47

they've banned from running, this very

6:49

popular Maria Carina Machado, the actual

6:51

opposition leader, but they barred her

6:54

from standing and this Gonzales guy

6:56

kind of stood in for her,

6:58

she's there. But she's living somewhere

7:00

in secret. She can only communicate

7:02

by putting videos out. She is

7:04

basically saying to people, get out

7:06

on the streets. But it's a

7:08

very difficult call to make that

7:10

to people who, frankly, you know,

7:12

there were 2,000 people arrested when

7:15

she first tried to mobilize opposition

7:17

to what's going on. And worse

7:19

than that, they basically, the government

7:21

puts out the line that these

7:23

people, the opposition, they're actually working

7:25

in league with criminal gangs with

7:27

criminal gangs. who are trying to

7:29

undermine the thing. And so it's

7:31

going to be horrific. He's going

7:34

to have all the pomp and

7:36

he'll have his sash and all

7:38

that stuff. Hard to see how

7:40

he gets stopped, but the questioner

7:42

is right in both places in

7:44

different ways. We're seeing democratic backsliding.

7:46

Question coming in on Gaza, Martin

7:48

Dixon. You seem curiously silent like

7:50

most of the Western media on

7:52

the horrors unfolding daily in Gaza,

7:55

which many international bodies now say

7:57

is genocide. Why slide off the

7:59

issue? And please don't discard this

8:01

question in the not good for

8:03

ratings pile. I don't think we

8:05

have been sliding off Gaza, but

8:07

much, and I apologize if you've

8:09

missed the things. talked about it.

8:11

So for an update on what's

8:14

happening in Gaza, the Israelis have

8:16

continued very very significant operations and

8:18

bombardments in Gaza, despite the fact

8:20

that they have achieved most of

8:22

the objectives that they had set

8:24

in terms of killing the major

8:26

figures in the Hamas leadership and

8:28

despite the successful attacks on Lebanon

8:30

which killed the Hezbollah leadership, most

8:32

of its senior people. It's very

8:35

difficult to understand what Israel is

8:37

achieving by continuing to do this

8:39

apart from allowing Netanyahu to remain

8:41

in power and keep his coalition

8:43

going because it's the demand of

8:45

the far right in his cabinet

8:47

that they keep pummeling Gaza. The

8:49

negotiations have restarted again in Qatar

8:51

and the negotiations focus on the

8:54

release of hostages. Meanwhile... Israel is

8:56

killing a lot of people just

8:58

killed another two journalists just killed

9:00

another 57 people in a day

9:02

I've just taken out the Indonesian

9:04

hospital and Tom Fletcher who we

9:06

should I think interview on leading

9:08

who's the new absolutely a UN

9:10

representative has now said that there

9:12

are effectively no hospitals at all

9:15

functioning in Gaza and the world

9:17

food program has pointed out that

9:19

attacks are happening against their convoys

9:21

so the ongoing situation Gaza horrifying

9:23

and actually after the killing of

9:25

the senior leaders in Hamas and

9:27

after the amount of destruction and

9:29

50,000 deaths, very difficult to understand

9:31

why what possible strategic advantage Israel

9:34

thinks it's achieving by continuing to

9:36

kill so many people. I think

9:38

Martin does have a fair point.

9:40

Martin Dixon asked the question. It's

9:42

not that we haven't been silent.

9:44

We've talked about this most weeks

9:46

in some shape or form, but

9:48

I guess... I think we're back

9:50

to the point that we're making

9:52

in relation to Georgia a moment

9:55

ago, that because of the way

9:57

that the pace of politics in

9:59

the modern age, the pace of

10:01

media and so forth. This is

10:03

just, it's almost like, I do

10:05

make a point of watching Al

10:07

Jazeera at some point most days

10:09

because they have not left it.

10:11

And interestingly, Al Jazeera, as we

10:14

said, has now been, is now

10:16

banned both by the Israelis and

10:18

the Palestinians. Now I never buy

10:20

that thing with the BBC, say,

10:22

if we're being attacked by all

10:24

sides, it means we're getting something

10:26

right. It's not automatically the case.

10:28

But I do think with Al

10:30

Jazeera, they have done a really

10:32

important service. Yes, they're biased, they

10:35

come from a certain perspective, but

10:37

they do make an effort to

10:39

keep trying to explain what is

10:41

actually happening inside Gaza. And that

10:43

statement you just made, there is

10:45

now effectively no real hospital care

10:47

inside Gaza. That should make everybody

10:49

paused for thought. I saw an

10:51

interview on, I think it was

10:54

on Channel 4 News the other

10:56

day, with a doctor who just

10:58

come back from Gaza, from Gaza.

11:00

you could see the sort of

11:02

visceral sense of anger and loss

11:04

and impotence, it said that you've

11:06

got no idea. And of course

11:08

we don't have an idea because

11:10

we can't see it properly. So

11:12

I think Martin, we're all affected

11:15

by the fact that the Israelis

11:17

have very effectively kept public support

11:19

at home pretty strong, given that

11:21

Netanyahu is so unpopular. They have

11:23

kept the issue kind of, you

11:25

know, internationally they've managed to keep

11:27

it get it down a bit.

11:29

And when you say what is

11:31

hard to see what their strategy

11:34

is, I think their strategy for

11:36

some time has been, let's wait

11:38

for Trump, and let's see what

11:40

happens when Trump comes in. And

11:42

we'll see, we'll see. But even

11:44

Trump, we said in the main

11:46

podcast that Trump's been quite quiet

11:48

recently, I can't remember the last

11:50

time he said much about the

11:52

Middle East. Yeah. So we're back

11:55

to the thing with impunity. One

11:57

of things that is now right

11:59

front and centre for Britain. And

12:01

remember, you know, the British National

12:03

Security Council will be having updates

12:05

on Gaza once a week. Kiestam

12:07

will be very focused on this

12:09

issue, and it's an issue that

12:11

really matters to a lot of

12:14

his key. voting groups matters a

12:16

lot to his party matters a

12:18

lot to British people. But for

12:20

Britain, for Europe, for the Gulf,

12:22

and for the US, the question

12:24

is increasingly what happens next. So

12:26

let's say hostess is released, let's

12:28

say there is a ceasefire, it's

12:30

a lot of ifs there because

12:32

Netanyahu has blocked these things as

12:35

have Hamas in the past, but

12:37

if that happens, what then happens

12:39

in reconstruction of Gaza? And that's

12:41

where I'm very gloomy. Anybody volunteering,

12:43

let's say Saudis, Emirates, volunteered to

12:45

provide an interim administration and security

12:47

in Gaza with money coming in

12:49

from Europe and the US. I'm

12:51

worried that it is a hiding

12:54

to nothing because Israel will continue

12:56

to blame whoever is running Gaza

12:58

if there are any security attacks.

13:00

The Palestinians in Gaza, on the

13:02

other hand, will accuse whoever is

13:04

running Gaza of being a stooges

13:06

for Israel. Israel can at any

13:08

moment enter the country and attack

13:10

people, it can close off borders

13:12

and stop the economic activity. We

13:15

learned how difficult nation-building was in

13:17

Iraq and Afghanistan, but in Gaza

13:19

I think it's not that we

13:21

will have learned the lessons and

13:23

found it easier. I think it'll

13:25

be that much more difficult because

13:27

of the situation they're in. Yeah,

13:29

yeah. I mean it is it

13:31

is it is unbelievably depressing and

13:34

you know I think we obviously

13:36

you said there, Kiesel, we'll be

13:38

getting briefed and Britain does have

13:40

a role. and Britain should have

13:42

a role given our part in

13:44

the history of this whole thing.

13:46

But I was at a charity

13:48

event last night. It was the

13:50

historian Peter Frankapal and I in

13:52

conversations it were. And he is

13:55

a very very clever guy. And

13:57

also he's one of the few

13:59

Brits that I know who has

14:01

a kind of relationship with using

14:03

ping. And he was making the

14:05

point that on all these big

14:07

foreign policy questions as Trump comes

14:09

in. Essentially, if you look at

14:11

the sort of bandwidth of... of

14:14

American diplomacy and Chinese diplomacy. The

14:16

bandwidth of both he was making

14:18

the point, essentially is taking up

14:20

with each other. And so we'll

14:22

see when Trump, I mean Trump

14:24

has been wanging on about Greenland

14:26

and Wanging on about you know

14:28

Panama Canal and so forth, but

14:30

actually the extent to which China

14:32

is going to be such a

14:35

big focus of a lot of

14:37

their time and energy and effort

14:39

I think is another reason why

14:41

I'm not, I could be completely

14:43

wrong about this, I don't know,

14:45

but I don't yet feel the

14:47

signs and see the signals that

14:49

this is going to be Trump's

14:51

first big foreign policy priority. No,

14:54

and I'm not sure to some

14:56

extent these new brand of leaders

14:58

really have foreign policy priorities. I

15:00

mean, I think they're increasingly concerned

15:02

about what happens at home. They're

15:04

increasingly concerned with doing things which

15:06

pretty much erode democracy and rights

15:08

in their people's countries. Yeah. Yeah.

15:10

Now what about this one before

15:12

we go to break, Roy? Because

15:15

we haven't, honestly, I don't think

15:17

we're talking enough about Brexit on

15:19

this podcast. Judy, Judy Abel, thinking

15:21

of the recent independent front page

15:23

on the eye-watering costs of Brexit,

15:25

what will it take for UK

15:27

labour who say they want growth

15:29

to start meaningfully addressing this issue,

15:31

e.g. considering whether it's time for

15:34

another EU referendum. Now, I don't

15:36

know if you saw, did you

15:38

see the independent front page? No.

15:40

So there we are. I'll show

15:42

it. I'll show it. I'll show

15:44

it. I'll show it. I'll show

15:46

it. 5 years on the true

15:48

cost of Brexit and it's 30.2

15:50

billion cost of our settlement divorce

15:52

27 billion dropping goods exports 15%

15:55

long-term hit UK trade 118,000 tons

15:57

drop in seafood exports so and

15:59

so and so it goes on

16:01

and on and on 2.3 million

16:03

net migration since the end of

16:05

free movement etc etc etc etc

16:07

etc etc etc etc etc etc.

16:09

I mean the facts I know

16:11

I'm biased I fully acknowledge that

16:14

but the factual analysis that anybody

16:16

who makes without bias from the

16:18

other side, the The question is

16:20

right, whether it's a referendum I

16:22

don't know, but Judy's question about

16:24

how are we going to get

16:26

growth unless we fix this mess?

16:28

How's that going to happen? And

16:30

we're in a world where Trump

16:32

is going to put up tariff

16:35

barriers, so protection on trade, charge

16:37

people for selling to the US,

16:39

is the world we need to

16:41

be closer to the European markets

16:43

in a customs union where we

16:45

have tariff-free, quota-free, full trade with

16:47

European union markets, in a world

16:49

in which there are pressures where

16:51

we need people to work for

16:54

the health service, where we need

16:56

people to work in critical industries,

16:58

is exactly the world in which

17:00

we should be signing up for

17:02

young Europeans, as opposed to people

17:04

from all the world, coming over

17:06

on visas in the way that

17:08

Europe offered. And in a world

17:10

in which we're worried about security,

17:12

where we're talking about why can't

17:15

Europe pull its act together on

17:17

any of this stuff, Britain needs

17:19

to be much much closer and

17:21

so why does stama who has

17:23

a cracking majority not say look

17:25

okay I accept the Brexit vote

17:27

happened but we are going to

17:29

be in a new relationship with

17:31

Europe but it's going to be

17:34

a close relationship with Europe and

17:36

it's going to start with the

17:38

customs union it's going to have

17:40

the visa travel for young people

17:42

back and forth and it's going

17:44

to have strong security cooperation and

17:46

we're going to lead with Europe

17:48

because Europe actually needs Britain now.

17:50

It's a time where, with France

17:52

and Germany week, Britain engaging on

17:55

foreign policy and defence will be

17:57

central. Yeah. Okay, well let's take

17:59

a quick break. When we come

18:01

back, prepare yourself. I'm going to

18:03

ask you a question about cricket.

18:05

Oh, looking forward to that after

18:07

the break, bye-bye. with 2024 now

18:09

coming to an end time to

18:11

start thinking. what you want your

18:14

2025 story to be. And there's

18:16

a lot to sort of think

18:18

about. some of the things that

18:20

we talk about in the podcast,

18:22

which, you know, frankly can get

18:24

me down. What am I thinking

18:26

about? I'm thinking about reading more,

18:28

actually, because I was surprised when

18:30

Roy and I were talking on

18:32

Boxing Day about the books that

18:35

we'd read. I actually hadn't read

18:37

nearly as much as I did

18:39

last year or the year before,

18:41

so I'm going to be reading

18:43

more, but I'm also going to

18:45

look out for some sort of

18:47

new sporting sporting challenge. I'm open

18:49

for ideas about that. as your

18:51

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month at betterhelp.com/rest politics. That's better

19:04

help.com/rest politics. Hi everyone, it's Caddy

19:06

here from the Rest is Politics

19:08

US. Anthony Scaramucci and I want

19:10

to tell you about our new

19:12

series that looks at one of

19:15

the darkest days in modern American

19:17

history, the capital riots of January

19:19

the 6th. you know, four years

19:21

have passed since Donald Trump's supporters

19:23

stormed the Capitol building and tried

19:25

to overturn the 2020 election results.

19:27

And Caddy and I are going

19:29

to explore the tensions and the

19:31

personalities at the heart of that

19:34

storm. Yeah, we're going to look

19:36

at the whole story, starting off

19:38

with, of course, the 2020 election

19:40

result itself, Joe Biden's victory, Donald

19:42

Trump's attempts to undermine that result

19:44

right up until January the 6th

19:46

and those horrifying scenes that all

19:48

of us watched on television back

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then. So don't miss it. Go

19:52

and search the Rest Is Politics,

19:55

US, wherever you get your podcast,

19:57

to hear just how Donald Trump

19:59

tried to defy American democracy. And

20:01

we've included a clip from the

20:03

series for you to listen to

20:05

at the end of this episode.

20:07

Rory Stewart and me as to

20:09

Campbell and technically it is a

20:11

political question but it is about

20:14

cricket Helen Mullen Rory yes the

20:16

upcoming cricket match between England and

20:18

Afghanistan yes why are we not

20:20

boycotting based on the Taliban laws

20:22

restricting women why is the international

20:24

community doing nothing well good question

20:26

and I think it's a True,

20:28

the Taliban do run a gender

20:30

apartheid state. Why is it difficult?

20:32

It's difficult because we spent 20

20:35

years in that country and we

20:37

made a royal mess of it

20:39

and tens of thousands of people

20:41

were dying a year. The Taliban

20:43

took over the country and it's

20:45

much safer. We don't have tens

20:47

of thousands of people dying a

20:49

year, a few hundred people dying

20:51

a year. Securities restore when I

20:54

was back there in August. For

20:56

the first time in over 20

20:58

years you can travel safety through

21:00

the country. The Taliban have very

21:02

repressive views on women, but they've

21:04

also in other ways changed. They

21:06

have taken a much better attitude

21:08

towards religious minorities, the Shia group,

21:10

for example, in Bamiyan, than they

21:12

had last time run. And they're

21:15

running a country which is crippled

21:17

by sanctions, where its economy can't

21:19

get off the ground. Afghanistan is

21:21

rapidly degenerating to becoming one of

21:23

the poorest countries in the world.

21:25

And I'm a bit disturbed by

21:27

the fact that with real horror

21:29

happening in Gaza, with everything we've

21:31

talked about with Georgia and Venezuela,

21:34

with what Putin's doing in Ukraine,

21:36

that it's convenient for people to

21:38

make it all about Afghanistan. And

21:40

I think in the list of

21:42

priorities of people you should be

21:44

sanctioning and sporting occasions, Afghanistan isn't

21:46

one of them, and partly because

21:48

it's one of the countries where

21:50

it's clearest in the world that

21:52

sanctions are completely irrelevant. The Taliban

21:55

are not like the classic corrupt

21:57

Russian oligarch or classic corrupt Nigerian

21:59

politician who wants to go shopping.

22:01

and Harards and is going to

22:03

be affected by sanctions. They've been

22:05

living in caves for 22 years.

22:07

They don't give a flying monkeys

22:09

about shopping in Harards or international

22:11

sporting recognition and all you're doing

22:13

by doing that is affecting the

22:16

teams that are going abroad and

22:18

having zero impact on any change

22:20

in Afghanistan. There are interesting things

22:22

you can do in Afghanistan. There

22:24

are splits emerging within the Taliban.

22:26

There are more reforming groups in

22:28

Kabul. But nothing is stupider than

22:30

Britain trying to develop a unilateral

22:32

policy of beating up Afghanistan, where

22:35

actually most of the problems there

22:37

were caused by us, and a

22:39

lot of what we're doing now

22:41

is just a form of guilt,

22:43

because we can't acknowledge that we

22:45

abandoned the country of the Taliban,

22:47

and now think we can deal

22:49

with it by telling them off

22:51

a cricket. Was there ever a

22:53

point in recent history where you

22:56

might have felt, say, because of

22:58

Saudi Arabia's attitudes on some of

23:00

the sort of deeply social conservatismism?

23:02

Where would you have stood in

23:04

the argument that said the occasional

23:06

non- diplomatic cultural social engagement might

23:08

be a good thing to do

23:10

to push them in a direction

23:12

that we want? And do you

23:15

think the fact that they have

23:17

become more integrated into the sort

23:19

of global sporting community might have

23:21

been because they picked up on

23:23

some of those campaigns? Yeah, I

23:25

mean I think sanctions can work.

23:27

I think they were really, really

23:29

important in South Africa. in ending

23:31

apartheid. I think they've had a

23:33

pretty mixed result elsewhere. I mean

23:36

there was a huge debate in

23:38

Myanmar. There's a fantastic Burmese-right attempt

23:40

in you who's just written a

23:42

book that I really recommend about

23:44

to come out on his grandfather,

23:46

Utant, the Sexually General of the

23:48

UN, and this amazing moment where

23:50

There was a Burmese secretary general

23:52

and people from the global south

23:55

were running the international system in

23:57

the 60s. He though was quite

23:59

quick to point out that in

24:01

many ways the sanctions in Myanmar

24:03

didn't do what we wanted. They

24:05

didn't make the regime changes. behavior,

24:07

they didn't improve conditions for Burmese

24:09

people, they simply made us feel

24:11

good about ourselves. The brutal truth

24:13

in Afghanistan is if you want

24:16

leverage and influence over Afghanistan, we

24:18

had it when we were in

24:20

Afghanistan, when we had 2,500 American

24:22

troops sitting in a base when

24:24

the capital cities were controlled by

24:26

an American and British back government,

24:28

when we decided to withdraw from

24:30

that country and hand the country

24:32

to the Taliban, which we did

24:35

almost overnight. All these attempts then

24:37

to fantasize about what are we

24:39

going to do to change the

24:41

regime in Afghanistan, change human rights

24:43

in Afghanistan, I think is unrealistic

24:45

and the loss of it is

24:47

actually damaging because a lot of

24:49

it means that charities on the

24:51

ground who are working with women

24:53

and who are able to support

24:56

some education for women, even though

24:58

it's difficult jobs and livelihoods for

25:00

women, are being undermined. because people

25:02

are feeling good about themselves saying

25:04

well we're not going to give

25:06

any money to the Taliban and

25:08

of course it also feeds and

25:10

I'm now going to really irritate

25:12

people I'm afraid. We're in a

25:15

culture now where it really suits

25:17

a lot of people particularly on

25:19

the far right to emphasize Muslim

25:21

countries where women are not treated

25:23

correctly because it helps to whip

25:25

up the general antipathy towards Islam

25:27

and distracts attention from the parts

25:29

of the world which they're more

25:31

sympathetic to. Now I was hopeful

25:33

we were going to get through

25:36

the entire episode without mentioning the

25:38

richest person in the world who

25:40

owns a 600 million people-based social

25:42

media platform, but you mentioned South

25:44

Africa and you mentioned the role

25:46

that this had all played in

25:48

in bringing the end of apartheid,

25:50

which I think it was. I

25:52

think sport did play a really

25:55

big part in that. Can I

25:57

make an appeal to the media?

25:59

and I think this was Times

26:01

Radio, I don't honestly think that

26:03

the parents of Elon Musk are

26:05

sensible credible voices. the politics of

26:07

the United Kingdom. I think if

26:09

you're going to interview Elon Musk's

26:11

parents, maybe we should try and

26:13

get them on the podcast, you

26:16

should be interviewing them about what

26:18

on earth they did to create

26:20

this person who has become what

26:22

he's now become. Elon Musk's father

26:24

was on the radio Rory explaining

26:26

why just as people used to

26:28

say Nelson Mandela would never be

26:30

president, the same people are probably

26:32

now saying Tommy Robinson could never

26:35

be prime minister. I just think

26:37

our media needs to shake its

26:39

head a bit. I know Enon

26:41

Musk at the moment is sort

26:43

of good click bait, but just

26:45

ask yourself a question. How is

26:47

that helping any debate going rant

26:49

over? Okay, okay. I mean, my

26:51

goodness that it does seem as

26:53

though Enon Musk's father's inflicted some

26:56

damage on the world. You've seen

26:58

these interviews with him where people

27:00

say to him, are you proud

27:02

of your son? And he says

27:04

no. God is completely useless, can't

27:06

even fix a vehicle. And you

27:08

can see, clearly, part of what's

27:10

inflicting misery and pain on the

27:12

world is Elon Musk's attempt to

27:15

try to impress his father. Okay,

27:17

here's a question which Declan Costello,

27:19

listening to the stories emerging from

27:21

Syria, I'm reminded the brutality of

27:23

the Assad regime. Clearly had thousands

27:25

of people prepared to commit horrendous

27:27

crimes against their fellow citizens. I

27:29

personally find it unimaginable that anyone

27:31

could elicit such cruelty to another

27:33

person, but in war zones around

27:36

the world, history tells us there

27:38

are many people who have prepared

27:40

Jews. How do normal citizens become

27:42

torturous? What are the politics of

27:44

torture? How are so many people

27:46

mobilized to do this? I'd like

27:48

to come to your list because

27:50

it's something that British people and

27:52

Americans often want to believe. isn't

27:55

relevant to them and that was

27:57

partly because Britain and the United

27:59

States were not occupied during the

28:01

Second World War. They didn't have

28:03

to deal in the same way

28:05

that many other people did with

28:07

Japanese or German occupation. with collaboration

28:09

and they haven't been through the

28:11

experience, the Balkans went through recently

28:13

or that Syria's been through, but

28:16

generally reading good books on Germany

28:18

or good books on Syria, what

28:20

you realize is how many many

28:22

many millions of people and that

28:24

will include many people in the

28:26

UK and the US in the

28:28

right conditions will get involved in

28:30

barbarity, willing to get involved in

28:32

torture. and we'll do absolutely horrifying

28:35

things and that that's why this

28:37

movement of the far right is

28:39

so dangerous that it's quite a

28:41

thin line that holds us back

28:43

from abandoning all the values that

28:45

we believe in and getting involved

28:47

in this stuff. Over to you.

28:49

When Fiona and I were watching

28:51

Say Nothing which I said was

28:53

my TV series of 2024 and

28:56

there were parts of the story,

28:58

this is the story of the

29:00

IRA and Jerry Adams in particular

29:02

and... there was stuff about the

29:04

way that the British military was

29:06

operating and some of the stuff

29:08

that the British military did. Now

29:10

this is a dramatised account but

29:12

several points Fiona would turn to

29:15

me and saying our soldiers didn't

29:17

do that sort of stuff didn't

29:19

they? And it's quite hard for

29:21

me to say no whether they

29:23

exactly did what was being depicted

29:25

at the time and so I

29:27

think you're right that we look

29:29

at places that the further away

29:31

they are either in time, so

29:33

like you look at modern Germany

29:36

and you think, well, there's no

29:38

way they could go back to

29:40

what they were in the 30s

29:42

and 40s, or in distance, so

29:44

Syria, a long way away, people

29:46

that don't look like us, don't

29:48

sound like us, and we find

29:50

it easier to imagine. What the

29:52

question is about is whether there's

29:55

something basically within all of us

29:57

that we could be driven to

29:59

that by ideology, by... leadership by

30:01

people making us feel that if

30:03

we didn't behave in a certain

30:05

way, we would ourselves be tortured

30:07

or punished. One of the worst

30:09

things that came out of Syria

30:11

when the prisons were released was

30:13

people giving these interviews of where

30:16

they were basically told, you know,

30:18

kill him or we'll kill you,

30:20

rape him or we'll rape you.

30:22

And it's unimaginable, but you know,

30:24

let's not pretend that we couldn't,

30:26

you know, there's something when, depending

30:28

on the circumstances. We shouldn't pretend

30:30

that this is going to localise

30:32

to places like Syria. I've talked

30:35

before about this book by Christopher

30:37

Browning called Police Battalion 101, which

30:39

was a German police battalion of

30:41

older men deployed to Poland. And

30:43

the reason it's so interesting is

30:45

they managed to get interviews with

30:47

over a hundred of them after

30:49

the war. And these were not

30:51

particular Nazis, not particularly ideologically motivated

30:53

young fanatics. They were just kind

30:56

of green graces and... laborers

30:58

and shopkeepers who, as older men, had gone

31:00

to this reserve police baton. And one of

31:02

the things that comes out of it is

31:05

that although many Germans after the war claimed

31:07

that the reason they did these things is

31:09

that they would have been killed if they

31:12

didn't, is that that isn't the case for

31:14

this battalion. In fact, three or four of

31:16

them do refuse to kill Jewish women and

31:18

children. What makes them do it? is more

31:21

a sense of being a good team player,

31:23

being one of the boys. So you can

31:25

see them, those that don't do the killing

31:28

are a bit apologetic and say things like,

31:30

well of course I didn't want to kill

31:32

these Jews because I had some Jewish friends,

31:34

but I fully understand why my colleagues did

31:37

because they had to have careers in the

31:39

police service. And then the guys that do

31:41

it, say... Well it's all very well for

31:43

them, you know, to get on their high

31:46

horses and say they weren't going to kill

31:48

them, but that just meant I had to

31:50

kill even more. Well they were all loitering

31:53

around at the trucks feeling good about themselves.

31:55

Do you think it's nice going out there

31:57

killing people? I had to murder all these

31:59

women and children. I have nightmares about it

32:02

because my bloody colleagues were too high-minded to

32:04

get on with the dirty work and do

32:06

it with me. And what I took away

32:09

from this is the incredible way in which

32:11

group loyalty being a good sport, being a

32:13

good team player. ties into these institutions and

32:15

makes people do horrendous things because we want

32:18

to fit in, we want to comply, we

32:20

want to be part of the group, want

32:22

to conform. Let's bring it back home to

32:24

the UK. Tom Brown, last week the head

32:27

of Prospect Union, Mike Clancy, suggested now is

32:29

the moment to reset relations between ministers and

32:31

civil servants following another rocky period. Tom Brown

32:34

then goes on to plug a bookie's written,

32:36

called The Mind of the Minister. What should

32:38

the head of the civil service, Chris Wormald,

32:40

prioritize to improve relationship with ministers? How can

32:43

ministers maximize the civil service to deliver their

32:45

ambitious goals? I thought, by the way, back

32:47

to our current leading interview we've got on

32:49

the feed with Ben Wallace, the former defense

32:52

secretary. I thought one of the really interesting

32:54

parts of that interview was when he talked

32:56

about his experience as PPS, you know, lowest

32:59

ministerial, sub-ministerial rank, and his relationship with King

33:01

Clark. to whom he was PPS, who involved

33:03

him in decisions, and because he felt that

33:05

the civil service actually was trying to keep

33:08

him out. And I thought it was a

33:10

really interesting example of where if a minister

33:12

insists on something, by and large they can

33:15

get it. And so I think that this

33:17

is a moment to reset relations. I was

33:19

at this event I talked to. talking about

33:21

with Peter Franklin, there was somebody there who

33:24

works with the civil service, who said that

33:26

they have felt really demoralised in recent years,

33:28

whipping boys for the media, not being motivated,

33:30

not being sort of promoted properly. And one

33:33

of the bits I didn't like in Keersthammer's

33:35

reset speeches, with that line he had about,

33:37

you know, the tepid bath of complacency and,

33:40

you know, accepting decline and all that, I

33:42

think the civil service needs a lot of

33:44

support, moral support, practical support. But that being

33:46

said, if a government comes in and says,

33:49

you have got to be part of... driving

33:51

reform, the reform that we want, then they

33:53

shouldn't be blockers, they should be facilitators. Yes,

33:56

giving advice, yes, pointing out all the pitfalls,

33:58

and ultimately I think provided they do get

34:00

clear ministerial direction, good civil servants are going

34:02

to go with that. Civil service is much

34:05

more at the heart of our political problems

34:07

and our future, I think, than people want

34:09

to acknowledge. We pretend that, you know, what

34:11

matters is the ministers who come in and

34:14

out, but the ministers are not specialists. There

34:16

are not there for very long. The machines

34:18

run by the service. And many of the

34:21

things that are driving the public up the

34:23

wall, which are things like how slow it

34:25

is to get planning done, you know, why

34:27

do we spend over 100 million pounds on

34:30

the Thames Highway Tunnel just in the planning

34:32

bit before we build anything? Why does so

34:34

much happen that seems kind of contrary to

34:37

common sense? All this kind of stuff that

34:39

you were talking about in the last podcast

34:41

Pierre Polier, in his interview, keeps banging A

34:43

lot of that is to do with law

34:46

process and civil service procedures. And if you

34:48

really wanted to create much, much more vigorous,

34:50

rapid government that was able to build roads

34:52

more quickly, get tunnels done, get houses built,

34:55

turn around systems, you'd really have to be

34:57

very, very adventurous in the way that you

34:59

led the civil service. And I agree with

35:02

you, that doesn't involve trashing, that involves... giving

35:04

them a real sense of ambition, optimism, moral

35:06

purpose and backing. You've got to make them

35:08

feel safe because again and again I... found

35:11

as a minister I was having to say

35:13

to civil servants I'll take responsibility for this.

35:15

Do you want me to sign a piece

35:17

of paper saying I decided this? It's not

35:20

you that's going to get in trouble. Let's

35:22

take some risk here I'll take the risk

35:24

for you. My last question Rory, very personal

35:27

one, Palmer, but this is a question to

35:29

you. Rory, did Alast to remember your birthday

35:31

and did he get you anything for it?

35:33

Well... Alistair has actually done the most lovely

35:36

birthday present in the world. No, it was

35:38

a Christmas. I didn't know it was your

35:40

birthday. Oh, well there's a lovely present anyway.

35:43

Let me pay tribute to the present. Oh,

35:45

I pay tribute to the present. I'll, I'll,

35:47

I'll, I've got the present here, but the

35:49

only, but this was a Christmas, when is

35:52

your birthday? A third of January, you missed

35:54

it by four days. You're a day after

35:56

fierne. If you're the second of the second

35:58

of the second of January. So what is

36:01

the second of January. So what is a

36:03

day? So what does that? So what is

36:05

that, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're,

36:08

you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're,

36:10

you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're,

36:12

you're, you're, you I think we're meant to

36:14

be quite ambitious. We're like rams, kind of

36:17

nothing rams. What are you? What's your star

36:19

sign? Oh, I'm a Jedi. Oh, listen, I

36:21

should encourage people, talking about star signs, the

36:24

Victoria Museum has an amazing exhibition called Great

36:26

Moogles, which has a science zodiac, including Gemini,

36:28

very beautifully displayed, cut onto gold coins by

36:30

a Moogel Emperor, but that's not the real

36:33

reason to go. The real reason to go

36:35

is it's got everything. astonishing miniature painting, beautiful

36:37

textiles, incredible stonework. So if somebody's looking for

36:39

an afternoon out, Great Mughals, the Victoria Museum,

36:42

anyway, Alice is present, here we go, show

36:44

us the present, and I want to describe

36:46

it to people. Okay, so get this. This

36:49

is a poem, pipe tune, pipe tune, which

36:51

is, and is it called the Rory Stewart's

36:53

Pots? No, it's called the March of Rory

36:55

Pots. I bet you can't even remember the

36:58

tune, can you? Go on. No, I can't.

37:00

I wouldn't be able to remember the tune.

37:02

And I need to play it for you

37:05

on a chance. I need to get a

37:07

chance over here and play it. You do.

37:09

You do. You do. So anyway, he wrote

37:11

this pipe tune for the March of my

37:14

pots, because I'm really into pots. And he's

37:16

now wristin it out beautifully and framed it.

37:18

thing is there for

37:20

posterity. Have you written

37:23

down much of the the

37:25

music you've composed? I

37:27

can play play on a

37:30

because I always because I

37:32

my desk. have the I

37:34

do my music, yeah, but

37:36

what I tend to

37:39

do is here write

37:41

it as I'm playing,

37:43

and only if I

37:45

like it do I

37:48

then record it, it. And I

37:50

then sent it it to

37:52

my friend who very who

37:55

very cheekily on this

37:57

thing put by Finney. by his

37:59

McDonald. were by his

38:01

improvements? What did he

38:04

do change? None. Other than put it

38:06

it down on paper.

38:08

And he And he AI

38:11

got AI to do

38:13

that But he's the the head

38:15

of the National in

38:17

Glasgow. in Glasgow. a lovely

38:20

tune, it's a 6-8 March. but

38:22

I do write a

38:24

lot of tunes, tunes. Yeah.

38:26

We're going to finish

38:29

with this, you're going

38:31

to get your chant

38:33

right, you're going to

38:36

play the your chance be

38:38

the end of our to

38:40

play the episode. that will be the

38:42

end of our question time episode. Okay. God

39:09

is it's beautiful, and the grace notes are

39:11

incredibly good, and your fingers and very precise.

39:13

very This is very impressive stuff, hope stuff.

39:15

I hope impressed as I am. is as When

39:17

I as you, I have that. I've got

39:19

one a... in the kitchen, which is

39:22

one I wrote for Fiona's wrote for Fiona's 50th

39:24

birthday. written I've written quite a few I like

39:26

a good a good It's a a great and my

39:28

and my memory of of of course, very

39:30

very brief time in the Black Watch,

39:32

Of of course, we marched behind the pipes

39:35

almost every day, because day because we were then... a

39:37

type B home defense battalion based in Shropshire, so

39:39

we were doing a lot of marching.

39:41

But that's that's a great march, that would

39:43

really get people striding out with a

39:45

kind of kind in their step. in if

39:47

there's any brief from if of the

39:50

military from the any of the you're welcome. your schools you.

39:52

you're on that, we shall finish. Thank

39:54

you, much. you soon. Thank you very much. See you. Bye-bye.

39:56

Bye. As

40:06

promised, here's a clip

40:08

from the Rest is Politics

40:10

U .S. is Politics is naturally

40:12

a conspiracy theorist, fueler. He

40:15

will He will fuel the

40:17

fire of any conspiracy

40:19

theory he's he's always seen

40:21

himself as an outsider an outsider

40:24

wants to to the people

40:26

from the outside to

40:28

attack the people from

40:30

the inside. So developing these

40:32

ideas that he eventually uses

40:34

in January, on the

40:36

6th of January. of the

40:38

ideas are are misinformation

40:41

out there, there's lies

40:43

out there. there, Let's use these

40:45

lies as fodder to attack

40:47

the people on the inside.

40:49

it He's doing it with hydroxychloricin

40:51

works. You may You may remember

40:53

this. I took hydroxychloricine. Mr.

40:55

President, you you took hydroxychloricine? Yeah,

40:57

yeah, I'm I'm on it. I

41:00

took it. And this is

41:02

the This is the kernels

41:04

of what's about to come. with

41:06

it all starts with up to

41:08

this it leads up to

41:10

this insurrection. Or as the

41:12

President says, a very peaceful

41:14

group of tourists descending upon

41:16

the want to hear you want to

41:18

hear the rest of the

41:20

show, go and search rest

41:23

Politics, US, US, wherever you get

41:25

your podcasts. podcasts.