0:00

Thanks for listening to The Rest is

0:02

Politics. Sign up to the Rest is Politics

0:04

Plus to enjoy ad-free listening and receive a

0:06

weekly newsletter. Join our members chat room and

0:08

gain early access to live show tickets. Just

0:11

go to the restispolities.com. That's the Restis politics.com.

0:13

The Restis Politics is powered by our

0:15

friends at Fuse Energy. And when he

0:18

switched to Fuse, he will now receive

0:20

trip plus membership free of charge. That's

0:22

where you can take advantage of things

0:24

like ad-free listening. early access to question

0:26

time episodes, pre-sale live show tickets and

0:28

more. All you're going to do is

0:30

getfews.com slash politics using the referral code

0:32

politics when signing up. We will be

0:34

providing many more offers for members which

0:37

I think can be great including interviews

0:39

for members only and questions from members

0:41

only which I hope you'll enjoy. But

0:43

the other advantage is signing up, of

0:46

course, is that you can protect your

0:48

energy bills by fixing your electricity rates

0:50

for the next year with Fuse, which

0:52

is going to be very relevant with

0:55

a price cap rising by 6.4%. Fuses

0:57

new fixed tariffs undercut the April price

0:59

cap by over £100, with almost 150

1:01

pounds of savings. for a typical customer

1:04

on the 18-month tariff. By fixing your

1:06

electricity rate, you can lock in your

1:08

price today and protect yourself from any

1:11

rises over the next year. So download

1:13

it now, use the referral code Politics

1:15

after signing up, visit getfuse.com/Politics,

1:17

for the terms of conditions,

1:20

and to learn more. Are your

1:22

ulcerative colitis symptoms proving difficult

1:24

to manage? Trumbaya, gazelcomab, can

1:26

help you manage the cycle

1:29

of UC symptoms. At one

1:31

year, many patients taking Trumbaya

1:33

achieved clinical remission and some

1:35

patients also achieved endoscopic remission

1:37

remission remission. Individual results may

1:39

vary. Trumbaya is a prescription

1:42

medicine used to treat adults

1:44

with moderately to severely active

1:46

ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions

1:48

and increased risk of infections

1:50

and TB. Getting

2:08

engaged? At Shane Company, dream engagement

2:10

rings are our specialty. We have

2:12

the most beautiful, natural, and lab-grown

2:14

diamonds, hand-picked in every price range,

2:16

ready to compare side-by-side. Shop online

2:18

at shaneco.com or in store, Shane

2:20

Company, your friend and jeweler. Music

2:28

Welcome to the rest of the

2:30

politics question time with me, Rory Stewart.

2:32

And with me, honest to Campbell. And yes,

2:34

Roy, we had a very, very... and

4:01

Farage has said he doesn't think that's

4:03

a good idea and has said he

4:05

doesn't want to do with Tommy Robinson

4:07

so there's a sort of policy disagreement.

4:10

Then Lowe gave an interview in the

4:12

mail in which he said that Farage

4:14

was suffering from Messiah Complex and

4:16

didn't have any policies and somewhere

4:18

along the line and one wonders

4:21

whether one finds Dominic Cummings his

4:23

hand in this Elon Musk began

4:25

taking a bizarre interest in the

4:27

details of... reform party politics saying

4:30

that Nigel Farage wasn't the

4:32

person to run reform and instead

4:34

he started promoting Rupert Lowe and

4:36

the response to this or maybe it's

4:38

not a response to this but it certainly

4:40

appears to be a response to this is

4:43

that Rupert Lowe has now found not only

4:45

that the whip has been stripped from him

4:47

by your friend Lee Anderson, the whip

4:49

of the Reform Party, but also

4:51

he has been accused of harassing

4:53

his office staff, a Casey has

4:55

been employed, and rather Buzal, he's

4:57

also been accused of physically assaulting

4:59

the chairman of the party, and

5:01

given both he and the chairman of the

5:03

party, on the surface seem rather mild-mannered

5:06

men, this vision of their

5:08

fisticuffs is also intriguing. Have

5:10

I misunderstood the story? Now

5:12

I think you've pretty much got there.

5:14

Just on the staff, the other room

5:17

in my life, he sent me a

5:19

thing this morning, have I seen this?

5:21

And it's a open letter that's been

5:23

written by Rupert Lowe's staff saying what

5:26

a lovely man he is and he's

5:28

never seen any bullying, he never seen

5:30

any intimidation blah blah blah blah blah.

5:32

I must admit, I know Rupert Lowe

5:35

a little bit because when he was

5:37

chairman of Southampton football club, whenever Bernie

5:39

played there, he always... Quite seem to

5:41

quite like having lunch with me before I

5:44

wandered off to the to the way end

5:46

and I think I recorded in my diaries

5:48

that I don't think I've ever met anybody

5:50

Quite as right wing as this guy. He's

5:53

very very very right wing on the economy

5:55

and all sorts of other things And last

5:57

night Rory I was Matt Ford the comedian

5:59

who was very very ill not long ago

6:01

but he's now back in action and I

6:04

was a guest on his live show last

6:06

night at the Duchess Theatre and I've got

6:08

to say he mentioned Lee Anderson who's not

6:10

my friend that was a joke I know

6:12

Matt Ford's Lee Anderson is one of the

6:14

best impersonations I've seen for a long long

6:16

time but he was talking about this thing

6:19

he said that Elon Musk taking

6:21

an active interest in the leadership

6:23

of a party with five MPs

6:25

in the UK. He says, it's

6:27

like Mark Zuckerberg suddenly decided, I'm

6:29

going to decide who's the next

6:31

leader of Sinn Fay. There is

6:33

something utterly bizarre about it, but

6:35

I think you're right, I think

6:37

what it's about, I think, look

6:39

I don't know because I'm not

6:41

talked to either of them about

6:43

it, but I wonder if partly

6:45

it is the Messiah thing, Nigel

6:47

Farage, not without reason, thinks that

6:49

he is... the prime driver of

6:51

the support for reform UK, just

6:53

as he was for the previous

6:55

parties that fell apart after a

6:57

while. He was a prime mover

6:59

in the Brexit referendum and a

7:01

very effective campaign in the Brexit

7:03

referendum, which is why we should

7:05

never let him forget it. And

7:07

Rupalo does seem, this is an

7:09

extraordinary thing, he does seem on

7:11

issues like immigration. to be even

7:13

further to the right than Nigel

7:15

Farage and his court. And I

7:17

think what might be going on

7:20

here is that Nigel Farage is

7:22

watching how the Conservatives are

7:24

operating under Kemi Badenock and I

7:26

think you and I both think the

7:29

Kemi Badenock probably won't last very long.

7:31

But her strategy seems to be I

7:33

can take over reform votes by being

7:35

a bit more like reform. I think

7:38

he's resisting that by saying I'm going

7:40

to stay pretty much where I am.

7:42

I'm a sort of right-wing conservative. I

7:45

rejected Tommy Robinson very deliberately to say

7:47

I'm not extreme right. This is another

7:49

opportunity to say that. Now the risk

7:52

for him, and I once when I've

7:54

told you before when I had a

7:56

long chat with him at question time, he

7:58

said the thing about musk. about the money.

8:01

It's the fact that he's very

8:03

very popular with young men and

8:05

we're targeting young men. And the

8:07

members special that we did with

8:09

Bruce Anderson, the Canadian Strachism Polster,

8:11

he said Pierre Polyevo will be

8:13

really worried at the moment about

8:15

upsetting Musk because Musk does have

8:17

a certain... it's not overwhelming but

8:19

he's... if Polyevo came out against

8:21

him he risks losing support and

8:23

I think Farage may be worrying

8:25

about that too. Yeah, well, Farage

8:27

is in the classic problem that

8:29

all right-wing parties across Europe are

8:31

facing, which is what happens when

8:33

somebody tries to out-flank you further

8:35

on the right. So obviously the

8:37

Conservatives have that problem with reform,

8:39

but now he's got the problem

8:41

that Rupert Lowe is saying, I'm

8:43

going to deport a million people,

8:45

Tommy Robinson, Zomata, and Farage then

8:47

has to decide, can he hold

8:49

whatever the weird world for it

8:51

is the... the center of the

8:53

far right against the right of

8:55

the far right. The far right

8:57

centrist's, the left of the far

8:59

right. It's like people like me

9:01

who describe themselves as lower up

9:03

a middle class. Anyway, so Farage

9:05

is in this world and of

9:07

course the conventional wisdom from political

9:09

scientists and the 20s and 30s

9:11

is don't endlessly move further to

9:13

the right because that basically just

9:15

gives the fascists their win. And

9:17

that if you hold your ground,

9:19

you are able to resist that.

9:21

So good on for us in

9:23

a way, you know, the last

9:25

thing I want to say is

9:27

good on for us because in

9:29

many ways I think he's an

9:31

absolute buffoon and I think he'd

9:34

be a terrible Prime Minister and

9:36

he was grossly irresponsible in Brexit.

9:38

But I am at least pleased

9:40

that he is not going full

9:42

AFD and that he's trying to

9:44

hold the line and I'm very

9:46

disturbed that Lo is trying to

9:48

out flank him with Musk's support.

9:50

And you know, Lee Anderson being

9:52

the chief heir, one of the

9:54

points Matt Ford was making last

9:56

night is that It's quite something

9:58

when Lee Anderson, who's got a

10:00

bit of a reputation as something

10:02

of a bruiser himself, is the

10:04

guy who's telling Rupert low that

10:06

you know your language is a

10:08

bit inappropriate and your conduct towards

10:10

women and all this sort of

10:12

stuff. But it seems to be

10:14

a proper kind of internal meltdown.

10:16

And of course, the fact that

10:18

they've only got five MPs, they've

10:20

now only got four, which is

10:22

exactly the same number as the

10:24

Greens. Is it too much to

10:26

expect that the media might start

10:28

to pay a bit of attention

10:30

to the Greens as well as

10:32

these four? And of course one

10:34

of them, this guy James went

10:36

murder. He's another one with a

10:38

touch of violence in his past

10:40

as it were. So a pretty

10:42

run lot I think we can

10:44

say. Can I just practical politics

10:46

sense? So the reason why this

10:48

isn't just a comedy show is

10:50

that reform did in the polls

10:52

at one point. come ahead of

10:54

Labour and Conservatives and in the

10:56

Welsh elections coming, reform again seems

10:58

to be in a strong position,

11:00

that's a proportional representation system, not

11:02

first-pass-to-pose, so they can do even

11:04

better than in the UK elections.

11:06

And we've got this by-election coming

11:09

in Roncorn because a Labour MP

11:11

managed to... Just again, sorry for

11:13

listeners, people remember John Prescott punching

11:15

someone and Mike Ainsbury has punched

11:17

someone. And what's the difference? What

11:19

was it that Mike Ainsbury did

11:21

that led to his resignation the

11:23

way that Prescott didn't resign? What

11:25

was the context of this? Well,

11:27

he got convicted for a very

11:29

violent offence. John Press got a

11:31

punch, good left jab, because a

11:33

guy had smacked an egg into

11:35

the side of his face and

11:37

I think most people thought self-defense.

11:39

an argument with a constituent in

11:41

the street, he punched him and

11:43

then while the guy was lying

11:45

on the ground, he punched him

11:47

several times again. So it was

11:49

a pretty violent thing. But okay,

11:51

now by elections coming. And presumably

11:53

this is going to be a

11:55

really important, or interesting anyway for

11:57

those who are interested in UK

11:59

policy. on judging what's happening with

12:01

reform, what's happening with the Conservatives,

12:03

whether Starmer has really got to

12:05

bounce out of what I think

12:07

many people feel has been pretty

12:09

good handling of Russia Ukraine so

12:11

far, which we can talk about

12:13

a bit later in the show.

12:15

King Starmer has definitely had a

12:17

bounce from his handling of this,

12:19

of the Russia Ukraine situation. Reform,

12:21

I think, were chomping at the

12:23

bit for a few by-elections. This

12:25

I think will damage them. Interestingly,

12:27

I've been talking... to some people

12:29

up there who, not just in

12:31

that seat, but in other parts

12:33

of the North West, who say

12:35

that the Conservatives really are completely

12:37

flatlining, that there's no sense of

12:39

people wanting to go back to

12:41

the Conservatives. And I don't think

12:44

Kimmy Baden was really giving them...

12:46

much reasons to be to be

12:48

positive by that. But just on

12:50

reform, the other thing that's the

12:52

Farage was very keen to sort

12:54

of emphasize when we had our

12:56

long chat in the green room

12:58

in Lincoln was he was singing

13:00

the praises of this guy Zia

13:02

Yusuf, the chair, and this is

13:04

a guy former Goldman Sachs, you

13:06

know how much the the populists

13:08

hate these globalists who work for

13:10

big banks like Goldman Sachs, well

13:12

this guy work for about, was

13:14

Goldman Sachs, then he built up

13:16

his own company, flogged it for

13:18

more than 30 million quid, big

13:20

donor to the party, but what

13:22

Farage said to me is he's

13:24

absolutely professionalising the party. He said

13:26

I've never had a professionally run

13:28

party, this guy's doing it. He's

13:30

got Nick Kandy, this sort of

13:32

super wealthy, sovereign individual property developer,

13:34

who's got one of the big,

13:36

if you go to one high

13:38

part, you'll see this extraordinarily large

13:40

sort of property he's got there.

13:42

he's promised seven figure sums so

13:44

he's got some they've got money

13:46

and interestingly on the money Roy

13:48

the the New York Times shout

13:50

out for your favorite newspaper they

13:52

did a big analysis of reforms

13:54

funding and they were to have

13:56

40% of their donations came from

13:58

basic climate change deniers fossil fuels

14:00

marketing industries and a lot of

14:02

the most of the more than

14:04

two-thirds of the donations came from

14:06

millionaires and multi-millionaires. So I hope

14:08

reform voters start to understand this

14:10

is not exactly man of the

14:12

people's stuff that we're talking about.

14:14

Let's also watch the space of

14:16

Paul Marshall who we've talked about

14:18

on the show before but he

14:21

is this very interesting individual I

14:23

mean massively massively wealthy has this

14:25

huge office on Sloan Street with

14:27

giant wooden elephants in the window

14:29

that you can see. who began

14:31

as a Lib Dem funder, then

14:33

came to my notice as a

14:35

big backer of Michael Gove, has

14:37

this magazine called Unheard, which has

14:39

now acquired the spectator, is sponsoring

14:41

some of these right-wing conferences in

14:43

Britain, seems to be sounding a

14:45

little bit more as though he

14:47

comes from the fundamentalist Christian right.

14:49

That I think is a space

14:51

worth watching, and the direction where

14:53

the spectator goes, because spectator... It's

14:55

now edited not by Fraser Nelson,

14:57

but by Michael Gove. And it's

14:59

going to be interesting to see

15:01

what happens there. It's not a

15:03

hugely influential except within right-wing circles

15:05

where everybody reads it. It was

15:07

an interesting magazine in the past

15:09

because along with sort of provocative

15:12

right-wing reporting, there were great book

15:14

reviews, there was some really funny

15:16

travel columns, there was low life,

15:18

which was this sort of fantastic

15:20

Jeffrey Bernard. column about his sort

15:22

of general collapse. And the question

15:24

is, will Gove be able to

15:26

sustain the kind of variety and

15:28

diversity in the spectator, or is

15:30

it in risk of becoming a

15:32

slightly more monotonous poor martial mouthpiece?

15:34

You know, we're going down to

15:36

media ownership what Jeff Bizos is

15:38

doing with the Washington Post. Yeah.

15:41

And I'm beginning to see signs

15:43

in the spectator. that they're beginning

15:45

to get a little bit predictable.

15:47

They're beginning to develop a rather

15:49

kind of standard set of enemies

15:51

or other standard set of friends

15:53

and some of that kind of...

15:55

liveliness is vanishing. Well, Mr. Gove

15:57

probably wasn't much behind his desk

15:59

yesterday because he was giving evidence

16:01

to the COVID inquiry about some

16:03

of the dodgy contracts and he

16:05

was given quite a hard time.

16:07

He was very govian in his

16:09

response. He did that thing, isn't

16:12

he? Whenever he mentions, you know,

16:14

it always is, for whom I

16:16

have the utmost respect or for

16:18

whom I have considerable regard, as

16:20

he's about to let sort of

16:22

say, why they're terrible, terrible human

16:24

beings. But isn't that interesting, how...

16:26

We're five years on from COVID.

16:28

Most countries have had their COVID

16:30

inquiries. This one's still going on.

16:32

But you've got a guy there

16:34

who was fundamental to this VIP

16:36

late and to a lot of

16:38

the stories that we've talked about

16:41

and read about and Michel Monne

16:43

and all this sort of stuff.

16:45

And yet again, it's sort of,

16:47

oh, well, that's the past. The

16:49

past is a foreign country, let's

16:51

move on. And I think there

16:53

is some, this is something that.

16:55

the sort of trumps and the

16:57

musks of this world exploit very

16:59

very well. The attention span of

17:01

the media ecosystem is ever shorter

17:03

and that does lend itself to

17:05

Steve Bannon's flood the zone with

17:07

shit. So I'm not that bothered

17:09

about what happens to the spectator

17:12

frankly and these right wing people

17:14

who sort of by influence like

17:16

Marshall. I think we should try

17:18

and get him on the podcast

17:20

actually if you're listening Mr Marshall.

17:22

I know you love media ecosystem

17:24

chat. with quite a lot of

17:26

torture. Now here's a really interesting

17:28

question. From Tanya, who's a member

17:30

in Exeter, why doesn't Europe kick

17:32

Hungary out of the EU? and

17:34

any other country which chooses dictatorship

17:36

of democracy. John Graham, also a

17:38

member of St Auburn's, although the

17:41

EU cannot expel Hungary, do you

17:43

think it's time to fully suspend

17:45

their rights under Article 7, including

17:47

voting rights and the right of

17:49

veto? Now before you say what

17:51

you think about that, interestingly last

17:53

week at the European Council, so

17:55

there was a European summit to

17:57

which obviously post-Brexit we don't attend,

17:59

where... the issue was Ukraine, Zelensky

18:01

was there, but I for the

18:03

first time talking to people afterwards

18:05

got the sense that there are

18:07

senior people within the European Union

18:09

and the European Commission who think

18:12

that this all ban issue has

18:14

got to be addressed. And so

18:16

one person said, you know, this

18:18

guy has basically got us by

18:20

the balls because of the rules

18:22

that he exploits. So that we've

18:24

got to find a way of

18:26

addressing it. So I think they

18:28

begin to talk about that. And

18:30

quite right too, my view. If

18:32

we're looking at basically NATO without

18:34

the US, so removing this enormous

18:36

superpower with its giant economy, its

18:38

massive military infrastructure, and Europe tries

18:41

to pull itself together and put

18:43

itself together in the face of

18:45

this kind of barrage of attack,

18:47

it's going to get the barrage

18:49

of attack from Russia, trying to

18:51

divide it's going to divide it's

18:53

going to get a barrage of

18:55

attack from Musk and Vance. trying

18:57

to undermine our democracies from within,

18:59

it's going to get a barrage

19:01

of attack from almost everybody around

19:03

the world that disagrees with European

19:05

values. So as it tries to

19:07

do that, it's got to deal

19:09

with some very difficult things. One

19:12

of them is people inside Europe.

19:14

Hungary would be an example, but

19:16

who knows, Slovakia, Austria, who can

19:18

begin to undermine European consensus, so

19:20

can it do create these sort

19:22

of informal blocks that navigate around

19:24

them? Can it bring in other

19:26

states as allies? Can it think

19:28

about... really bolting on Canada, the

19:30

UK, Ukraine, Turkey, how do they

19:32

do that? And are the leaders

19:34

bold enough to do that? I

19:36

mean you saw Renasov Sikorski, the

19:38

Polish foreign minister, when Hungary said

19:40

there should be a referendum in

19:43

Hungary on Ukraine joining the EU.

19:45

He said there should be a

19:47

referendum in the EU on kicking

19:49

out Hungary. So there's the beginnings

19:51

of that kind of... stuff going

19:53

on. But here's a question from

19:55

John who's a member which is,

19:57

is Starmer going to be able

19:59

to... come up with a proper structure

20:02

for connecting Britain to the EU

20:04

or is it just going to

20:06

be ad hoc? So there we

20:08

are over to you. Did you

20:10

for answer that specifically because you

20:12

mentioned Austria there worth pointing out

20:14

and we talked about Austria a

20:16

lot after their election and about

20:18

this guy Kekyll that was looked

20:20

like he was in pole position

20:22

to to become Chancellor and it

20:24

hasn't happened because we've finally got

20:26

a government in Austria but it's

20:28

a three-party coalition that does not

20:30

include the fire rights the Conservatives

20:32

the Social Democrats and the Liberals so it's

20:34

going to be tricky to all that together

20:37

but it's interesting that the system in the

20:39

end decided no we're not having that guy.

20:41

Presumably in Austria this is kind of last

20:43

chance saloon this is their last hope to

20:46

try to hold Kekyll out. and Kekyll will

20:48

try to use the fact he's been excluded

20:50

to hope there's a new election where he

20:52

can get even more votes and ultimately end

20:54

up with a chance. He'll definitely try to

20:57

do that and that is the same for

20:59

vital in the in the AFD in Germany

21:01

and it's the same in Romania where the

21:03

hard right won then then lost or have

21:06

the election taken away. So yeah absolutely and

21:08

that but I think this is what's so

21:10

interesting about what's going on in Europe at

21:12

the moment is that it's kind of last

21:14

chanceling for everybody for everybody for everybody. were

21:17

to sort of be the subject of

21:19

some kind of political miracle and that

21:21

they're out in a single term with

21:23

that sort of majority, that's kind of

21:26

a last chance salute in some ways.

21:28

I think what Mertz is doing in

21:30

Germany, this sort of dramatic change to

21:33

boost defense spending by changing the rules

21:35

on this debt break, I think that's

21:37

him recognizing that, you know, we're beyond

21:40

the point where we can just tinker

21:42

around and do okay or fail a

21:44

bit. I think now they all recognise

21:47

that democratic, sensible, mainstream parties have got

21:49

to deliver else they're all going to be

21:51

in trouble. That's kind of what they think,

21:53

I think. Back to John's question on whether

21:55

Starmer would be up for being imagined enough

21:57

about formal structures as opposed to just add...

22:00

deals? Well, I hope so, because I

22:02

think these structures are going to have

22:04

to happen. I'm increasingly the view

22:06

that we've all had a bit

22:08

of confirmation bias, leaners towards the view

22:10

that, oh, America's never going to leave

22:13

NATO, America's never going to pull the

22:15

plug on Europe. If Trump lasts four

22:17

years, and let's remember that if he

22:19

falls under a bus, it's JD advance

22:21

who takes over under the American constitution.

22:24

It doesn't feel to me like they

22:26

are listening to our analysis as to

22:28

what is good for America. So if

22:30

that's the case, then I think new

22:32

structures do have to emerge. And you

22:34

can see them emerging. Kierstarmer, again to

22:37

his credit, because he's must be working

22:39

every hour God sends at the moment,

22:41

because he's not just got this. He's got

22:43

the day job of all the domestic stuff

22:45

as well. He's announced that he's going to

22:48

host another meeting, similar to the one he

22:50

did at Lancaster House recently. And I think

22:52

it will be interesting to see. You know,

22:54

will Canada be at that one again? Will

22:57

the Turks be at that? Will that broaden?

22:59

Some of the noises come out of Australia

23:01

are very interesting at the moment. They're in

23:03

the middle of an election. But both Albanese

23:06

and Dutton are pretty clear. I think it

23:08

was Dutton or the other day saying that,

23:10

yeah, we'd have to think about Australia getting

23:12

involved if there was a sort of boots

23:15

on the ground type operation. So I think

23:17

that whether that will live alongside NATO, I

23:19

think we're seeing this on the economies

23:21

as well, the bricks. I think we'll develop

23:23

and change. And we had a question,

23:26

we get lots of questions every week

23:28

about, you know, what's the UN for,

23:30

and obviously the UN is struggling to

23:32

find purpose in this sort of the

23:35

world of strong men. Just on this

23:37

point about Starmer, we did an interview

23:40

with Peter Kyle, the cabinet

23:42

minister responsible for IT and

23:44

technology, and listens will hear on

23:46

Monday when they listen to it.

23:49

Him trying to navigate this question

23:51

about what Britain's in the Labour

23:53

Party really neurogic about any talk

23:55

about things like rejoining the customs

23:58

union and that's presumably Partly,

24:00

I think because Morgan McSweeny and

24:02

the kind of red walls theory holds

24:04

that they need to rely on

24:07

Brexit voters and anyone alienate. I'm a

24:09

bit anxious, partly because of what they've

24:11

done on international development, which

24:13

is really sort of troubling

24:15

and bizarre, and the possibility

24:18

that they think that was a

24:20

popular good move because it coincided

24:22

with the moment that Stama became

24:24

more popular, which I think was largely

24:26

to do with his... handling of

24:28

Ukraine and having to deal with

24:30

cutting international development, but number 10

24:32

seems to think international development

24:35

as part of that. And all this together

24:37

leaves me with my anxiety about stoma, which

24:39

is, is he going to be able to

24:41

grow out of being a sort of

24:43

solid, technocratic civil servant into having

24:46

the kind of big imagination and

24:48

creativity to reimagine what the Western

24:50

order is without the United States? I mean,

24:53

this is the moment where... We need our

24:55

Jean Monets. This is the moment where

24:57

we need the generation that we

24:59

had in 1945-46, where you really

25:01

think, okay, this is the direction U.S.

25:03

is going, this is the threat that

25:06

Russia clearly poses to us, this is

25:08

where China's going, and we're going to

25:10

reimagine something which isn't just, we'll do

25:13

a little deal on fisheries, and

25:15

you give us a bit more access

25:17

on services, but this is something permanent,

25:19

an alliance we're creating. My answer

25:22

to that is I hope so

25:24

because I think that's what's going

25:26

to be needed. And I really

25:28

do think that what Mertz did.

25:30

I think people maybe underestimate just

25:32

how big a deal that was

25:34

that he announced, the change to

25:36

the debt break, and to be

25:38

so clear that it's about making

25:40

Germany and Europe more independent of

25:43

the United States. I must tell

25:45

you, by the way, Roy, I

25:47

was able... publicly to invite you

25:49

onto the podcast the other day

25:51

because we shared an interview space

25:53

on a German radio station and

25:55

I got big-footed. I'd done my

25:57

interview de Vocke, the interview of

25:59

the week. And I was very proud of

26:01

it because I did it all in German and

26:03

it was all very good and said some very

26:05

tough things. But then they said, you know, it

26:08

won't be running in the usual slot because Friedrichmertz

26:10

is coming on. So anyway, so what they did,

26:12

they said to him, we interviewed earlier today, we

26:14

interviewed Alistair Campbell, he used to work for Tony

26:17

Blair and now has a very successful podcast called

26:19

the rest of his politics. And he made two

26:21

points, he said he'd like you'd like you to

26:23

keep Boris Pistorius, Boris Pistorius, he's, he's, he's his,

26:25

he's his, he's his, he's Bist story. and he's

26:28

liked him to stay as defense minister and he

26:30

thinks he should get on with delivering

26:32

the tourist project to Ukraine. Now he

26:34

parked the Boris Pistorius thing but in

26:37

a very kind of calm polite way

26:39

and basically said yeah he's kind of

26:41

he didn't say the words but I

26:43

read between the lines he's with us

26:45

on tourists so anyway and I managed

26:48

to get an invite onto the podcast

26:50

while I was there so that's

26:52

quite good. As a dot Rory Rory Rory,

26:54

see you off the pouser. This

27:02

episode is brought to you by one

27:04

of our favorite sponsors, long-term partners of

27:06

the rest is politics. That's Nord VPN.

27:08

And we're guilty, sometimes assuming the internet

27:10

is safe by default. We browse the

27:12

same sites, we use the same passwords.

27:14

Nothing normally goes wrong, and it's very

27:16

easy to let your guard down. But

27:18

hackers, as I'm sure many listeners have

27:20

found out, are always looking for ways

27:22

to get into your system. And they're

27:24

trying to steal your money, or they're

27:26

trying to steal your data. and internet

27:28

service providers are happy to sell your

27:31

browsing data to companies and marketeers. And

27:33

that's where all VPN comes in is

27:35

your go-to solution for secure internet access.

27:37

What it does is it creates a

27:39

virtual private network, that's the VPN bit,

27:41

which you use to connect to the

27:43

internet. Just download their app and switch

27:45

it on and it works in the

27:47

background. It's got military grade encryption so

27:49

you can browse with confidence knowing

27:52

your personal information is safe from

27:54

prying eyes. Our listeners get an

27:56

exclusive deal at nordvpn.com/Restis Politics and

27:59

one subscriber. So that's northvpn.com/Restis

28:01

Politics, completely risk-free with

28:03

their 30-day money-back guarantee,

28:05

and you can find

28:07

the link in the

28:10

episode description. Alaska

28:41

Airlines and Hawaiian Airlines have come

28:44

together, bringing you more destinations and

28:46

even more rewards. Now your miles

28:48

add up no matter which airline

28:50

you fly. Head to Hawaii with

28:52

Hawaiian or explore Mexico, the Bahamas,

28:54

the East Coast, and... Head to Hawaii with Hawaiian or explore Mexico, the Bahamas, the East Coast, and beyond

28:56

with Alaska. Your loyalty just got

28:58

a major upgrade. More flights from

29:01

the West Coast, more perks, and

29:03

more ways to earn. Book now at Alaska

29:05

Air. positive

36:00

aspects of it. Well you need to be

36:02

educated in why life without music is not a

36:04

proper life. I absolutely hear you. I'm an

36:07

uncivilized human being. I don't have the depths

36:09

of your bait-hoven soul. I completely, if only

36:11

I listen more to ABBA, my sense of

36:13

the world be different. No, I think that's

36:16

probably true. And it's also true you can

36:18

make the same case on football. I

36:20

think these are two big weaknesses in

36:22

my life. No, I think football, not

36:24

liking liking liking football, even though I

36:26

love it, I love it, I love

36:28

it, I love it, I love it,

36:30

I understand. I understand. I understand. Life

36:32

without music is life not worth living.

36:34

Part of the problem is I'm just

36:36

basically tone deaf and it's very difficult

36:38

to communicate to someone what that actually

36:40

feels like or is like. As I

36:42

think I've said before my father couldn't

36:44

understand it. He believed that everybody could

36:46

paint and everybody could play

36:48

music and dedicated his 92 years

36:51

to the slightly quixotic task of

36:53

trying to convince non-musical non-artistic people

36:55

to do watercolours and compose music.

36:58

I think it's possible weirdly that

37:00

we are sort of different, but

37:02

it kind of differently wired and

37:05

I think it's probably true 80% of

37:07

the world, 90% of the world, food

37:09

is an incredibly important part of their

37:11

lives, but not maybe 100%. I'm also

37:13

a bit... bit lame on food. I'm pretty lame

37:16

on food. I did Ruthie Rogers podcast this

37:18

week and I admitted I'm really not interfering.

37:20

I don't know where you're talking to me.

37:22

Are you a boy into music? Yeah, yeah.

37:24

Sasha's learning the trumpet at the moment and

37:26

enjoying that and I've really enjoyed singing. I

37:29

mean he's got he's got to work a

37:31

little bit more getting in tune but he

37:33

loves belting out June so I think there's

37:35

hope there. Hope in the next generation.

37:38

Right now back to serious stuff. Back

37:40

to serious stuff. Why are the mainstream

37:42

media and European politicians afraid pushback against

37:44

accusations of free-loading when the post-World War

37:47

II agreement was that the US would

37:49

provide security umbrella? So let's start with

37:51

that because that's an important point.

37:53

At the moment what Trump is basically suggesting

37:56

is that it was just US naivety

37:58

and everybody was mooching off them. and

38:00

the Americans were paying all this

38:02

money. What of course he forgets

38:04

is that America did this deliberately

38:06

so it could exercise power. It

38:09

invested in NATO because it wanted

38:11

to contain the Soviet Union. And

38:13

it didn't want Europe to go

38:15

weak at the knees or neutral

38:17

towards the Soviet Union. They wanted

38:19

Europe to be on the American

38:21

side. And Eisenhower spoke explicitly about

38:24

the U.S. having that security responsibility,

38:26

they didn't want to go to

38:28

develop his own nuclear weapons, they

38:30

wanted Europe to be dependent on

38:33

US nuclear weapons. And you can

38:35

see, actually even today, in two

38:37

examples, Ukraine and Syria, it's quite

38:39

clear that Trump is saying to completely

38:42

contradictory things. On the one hand, he

38:44

seems to be saying, I'm an isolationist,

38:46

I don't care what happens outside the

38:48

US, go ahead, you pay for it, we won't pay

38:51

for it. But on the other hand, when people

38:53

actually step up and offer to pay,

38:55

he doesn't let them. Because he wants

38:57

to have his cake and eat it. He

38:59

wants to say, I'm not going to pay

39:01

any money, but he also absolutely wants to

39:03

be able to take Russia's side on

39:05

Ukraine, which is why when Europe steps

39:07

up and says, okay, we'll find $50

39:09

billion a year, can we please buy

39:11

American kit and keep the satellites going?

39:13

He says no. And when Saudi Qatar and Turkey

39:15

step up in Syria and say, okay, you're saying

39:18

you don't want to spend a single American dollar

39:20

in Syria, you don't want to marry American troops

39:22

on the ground, can we please provide the money?

39:24

He won't let them do it. He puts sanctions

39:26

in place to prevent it, because in that case,

39:28

he's taking a position against Syria, as he's

39:31

taking a position against Ukraine, while pretending to

39:33

be isolationist and neutral. Interesting. Very interesting.

39:35

Let's stick it over there. Hidey leg. How

39:37

does Mark Carney position himself? When so

39:39

many democratic nations rejecting the liberal machine that

39:41

seems to choose candidates further upstream, how

39:43

does a candidate like Mark Carney stand out

39:46

as his own person rather than a

39:48

plant from the global elite? How can he

39:50

show that he truly wants Canada to

39:52

be wealthy? Okay, well I want you to

39:54

answer this because you've been deep in

39:56

Canada, but let me just do the little

39:59

explainer to explain. how weird it is.

40:01

So it would not be conceivable

40:03

in British politics for Mark Kearney

40:05

to do what he's just done.

40:07

So Mark Kearney was Governor of

40:09

the Bank of England and successful

40:11

banker. Mark Kearney is, I

40:13

guess, approximately 60 and he

40:15

hasn't been an elected MP. He

40:17

ran to be Prime Minister without

40:19

even being a member of Parliament.

40:22

He was just a grand public

40:24

figure. Be like Gary Linica suddenly

40:26

deciding. you know, to run for leadership

40:28

of the Labour Party without being an

40:30

MP. And he has ended up not

40:32

just winning the leadership, but becoming Prime

40:34

Minister, and now is in pole position.

40:37

And again, talk about luck in politics,

40:39

right? If we've been talking about this

40:41

before Trump completely destroyed Pierre Poliyev's chances,

40:43

it seemed like a hospital part. Yeah,

40:46

sure, Mark, you can become the leader

40:48

of the Liberal Party for a few

40:50

weeks, but you're then 20 points behind.

40:52

You'll go to defeat from Pierre Poliev. point

40:55

health point of view doing a few

40:57

weeks as Prime Minister and then being

40:59

leader the opposition. Instead of which he's

41:01

managed to pull all that off, okay,

41:03

over the US. The question, how does

41:05

he position himself? I think he does

41:07

a national version of what he's been

41:09

doing in the party context. Polyevera has

41:11

been, I mean, some of the polls,

41:13

Bruce Anderson was telling us on the

41:15

episode we did for members, he was

41:17

saying this is a Canadian polester and

41:19

strategist, some of the polls, Polyever was 25

41:21

points ahead, just a few weeks

41:23

ago. and he's now well into

41:26

single figures. We're now virtually within

41:28

the margin of error. So if

41:30

Mark Hardy, when he said position

41:33

himself, I would say, take the

41:35

messaging that has won himself this

41:37

landslide in the leadership election and

41:40

take that messaging into the national.

41:42

And part of that is about, this

41:44

is not about the liberal part, this

41:46

is now about bringing the whole of

41:49

Canada together. We are facing a really

41:51

strong, powerful enemy. I think the fact

41:53

that he called in out what it

41:56

is, and he linked Polyevris, I thought

41:58

very cleverly to Trump, you know. Basically,

42:00

you either stand up for Trump

42:02

or you stand up to Trump.

42:04

I'm standing up to him. I

42:07

think he positions himself as serious,

42:09

grown-up, experienced, not a politician.

42:11

It becomes a strength that he says

42:13

I'm new to this game. I know

42:15

a lot about politics because I've worked

42:17

in Central Bank. He's over there. Polyever

42:19

is a kind of lifelong. He exists

42:21

to be a politician. and then he's

42:24

got to find some you know good

42:26

chunky policy ideas that make people feel

42:28

this guy can get stuff done. Look

42:30

at you say that Polyever has crashed

42:32

he's not crashed it's still you know

42:34

what he will try to do is

42:36

to make Kani part of the Liberal

42:38

Party global elite all that stuff and

42:40

I'm not sure it's going to be

42:42

very effective. We shall see. It's going to

42:45

be very interesting here. And I think

42:47

it'll be soon. I think it's going

42:49

to be, I think he won't hang

42:51

around to call an election. Final question

42:53

for me, and thank you for this,

42:55

because it comes back to some themes

42:57

you've been touching on last few days.

42:59

Alison Matthews, Glasgow, trip plus member, thank

43:01

you for being a member of trip.

43:03

Where is the US opposition to Trump

43:05

advance? I see the odd thing on

43:07

social media, but nothing of significance. Where

43:09

are the Democrats? framing on

43:11

this which relates to our

43:13

conversation yesterday. We have

43:15

entered this reality TV social

43:18

media world which Trump has

43:20

sensed that he can release other

43:22

people. It's not just him doing

43:24

it. Obviously Musk has been

43:27

given cover to do it. Don't or

43:29

Jay Trump Jr. has been given cover

43:31

to do it. They're all rolling

43:33

and we'll see more and more from

43:36

Pete Heska than others as they as

43:38

they get going. And that's why he's

43:40

brought in a lot of Fox News

43:43

people into his central team.

43:45

And I think that we don't quite

43:47

understand how much this world

43:49

is changing because we don't

43:51

look enough at places like Russia.

43:53

We still think that the way

43:56

to respond is reasoned articles in

43:58

the New York Times. Whereas in

44:00

fact, what's being created for better

44:02

or for worse is a reality TV

44:05

thing with an enormous audience, particularly

44:07

on Facebook, which dominates a

44:09

lot of this, but also on

44:11

Twitter, where what they want to see

44:13

is you punch back. And in some

44:15

ways, Kamal Harris and Tim Waltz were

44:18

at their best in the campaign when

44:20

they were doing their own version of

44:22

this, doing things like these guys are

44:24

weird, viral videos, good stuff with

44:26

Saturday Night Live, mocking them back. One

44:29

of the questions for democratic

44:31

politics is very disturbing

44:34

because if you, me, Keastama, everybody

44:36

feel the only way we can

44:38

fight back against sort of Trump

44:40

in right is to, as it were, play them

44:42

at their own game. You

44:44

turn democratic audiences into people

44:46

sort of watching popcorn and thinking,

44:49

nothing's real. These are all a bunch

44:51

of bluffers, but wow, that was a funny

44:53

hit back and the whole thing that comes

44:56

like watching a pro wrestling match. I was

44:58

yesterday at that thing, you know, I remember

45:00

a year ago now we did that thing

45:02

at Methodist Hall with 1800, six performers.

45:04

I did it again solo yesterday

45:07

and some fantastic questions, but one

45:09

of them actually was about whether

45:11

there should be populism of the

45:13

left. and whether there's anything that we

45:15

can actually people like me can actually

45:18

learn from Trump. And that's something that

45:20

we also discussed with Tommy Vita on

45:22

Ponzo America this week. And the whole

45:24

premise of him wanting to talk to

45:26

me was actually goes absolutely agrees with

45:28

Allison that the Democrats are frankly all

45:31

over the place. There's no strategy

45:33

for recovery, there's no analysis really going

45:35

on, there's no, as far as I

45:37

can tell, there's no formal review of

45:39

what happened, and leaders are, the leaders

45:41

that are emerging, they're either the people

45:43

that we've known forever like Bernie Sanders

45:45

or AOC or whatever, otherwise new names

45:48

that are coming up, but it doesn't

45:50

feel terribly, terribly organised. But so many,

45:52

and what I said in answer to

45:54

this question, the Methodist Hall, I said,

45:56

if we define the kind of Trumpian

45:58

way in Moses name, three p's populism,

46:00

polarization and post-truth, then we don't

46:03

want to go down that road.

46:05

We don't want to become, you

46:07

know, a left-wing progressive version of

46:09

that. But where we should, can

46:11

and should learn from them, is

46:13

in relation to the incredible organizational

46:15

skills that they've got, not least

46:18

through the whole media ecosystem, think

46:20

tankery and all that stuff, but

46:22

also whether we like him or

46:24

not, and you and I don't,

46:26

Trump is in his own way

46:28

a genius communicator. Even if you

46:30

strip away the lies, and even if

46:32

you strip away the nonsense and the

46:35

bullshit and the bullying, and you may

46:37

say, well you can't strip that away

46:39

because that's part of it, but just

46:41

technically to watch him as a communicator.

46:43

Now what is it about? So when

46:45

we were talking about Matthew Barson saying,

46:47

go and help Labour ministers talk like

46:49

human beings, whatever you think about Trump,

46:52

there's something compelling about the way

46:54

he communicates. Now you can't sort of imitate

46:56

that, but what is it that he's got

46:58

about about about it. It's being interesting,

47:01

it's being entertaining, it's

47:03

about saying things that people don't

47:05

necessarily expect, it's about having a

47:07

very strong powerful turn of phrase

47:10

that commands attention. Now, he does

47:12

it for bad, but you can use

47:14

all of those factors for good. As

47:16

you know, I'm full of praise for

47:18

the way that Starmer Macron Mertz and

47:20

Tusk are handling what's going on now.

47:23

But in terms of how they project

47:25

and communicate to the public, I still

47:27

think it feels a little bit last

47:29

generation, not next generation. It's the next

47:31

generation that we've got to get on

47:33

side for what's coming. Part of the

47:35

problem is the risk of becoming sort

47:37

of defenders of the status quo. That

47:40

is absolutely right. And defenders of the

47:42

status quo that we actually don't like

47:44

and didn't create. That's the point. What's

47:46

under the Democrats at the moment?

47:48

There is a risk that they're defending

47:50

a status quo for which they're not

47:52

actually responsible. There is stuff

47:54

wrong with institutions. be the reformers not

47:57

the defenders. Exactly, so you know we've

47:59

had a question. from Anakin's sheep, would

48:01

we benefit from having our own

48:03

version of Doge? Now, there's a

48:05

classic question, right? Because I get

48:07

very, very wound up, understandably, by

48:09

people coming to be saying, well,

48:11

yeah, but, you know, isn't Elon

48:13

Musk right? Isn't government inefficient? Well,

48:15

of course government's inefficient. You know,

48:18

you and I have worked in

48:20

government. We torn our hair out

48:22

about government. There's a lot that's

48:24

inefficient about government, and we see

48:26

it all the way they'd manage.

48:28

How on earth do you say

48:30

to people, look, okay, yes,

48:32

and yes, it's also true

48:34

that quite a lot of

48:36

international development assistance was also

48:39

misspent, but that doesn't mean

48:41

doing this, right? Doesn't mean a

48:43

situation where we now have all

48:45

the HIV AIDS medication

48:47

currently stuck in ports with

48:50

it expiring, so that it can't

48:52

be used to save lives. The

48:54

same with vaccination on the

48:56

most basic diseases. I was talking

48:58

to a farmer in Zimbabwe who is

49:00

now funding all the entry retroviral

49:02

treatment for his own workforce out

49:04

of his own pocket because 35%

49:06

of people have HIV AIDS and

49:09

Trump has stopped all of that. It's going

49:11

to explosion across the world of this.

49:13

We've seen it with Musk shutting

49:15

down the federal drug administration. I

49:17

was talking to someone in the

49:20

FDA. Shut down all the testing

49:22

centers including the basic food testing

49:24

centers and then have to reopen

49:26

them. fires, you know, nuclear controllers.

49:28

We talked to Michael Lewis about

49:31

this. This was his fifth risk,

49:33

and rehires them. I mean, it's

49:35

completely irresponsible, insane. You know, the

49:37

other one, we hear about, well,

49:39

isn't it right that, you know,

49:41

Europe should pay a bit more

49:43

on defense? Yeah, sure. Let's say you

49:46

had, for some reason, been, I don't

49:48

know, supporting a charity, and

49:50

you were supporting 50% of its income,

49:52

and you wanted it to raise more

49:54

of its own money, on you, Fair enough,

49:56

but the way to do it is say here's a

49:58

five-year plan. I'm going to... every year there's going

50:00

to be a thing and you're going to raise

50:03

up. Not I'm stopping all funding now, thank you.

50:05

Whole things collapse is. And that's what reveals

50:07

who they really are. They're not really trying

50:10

to help Europe become self-sufficient. They're not giving

50:12

them time to do it. They're just knocking

50:14

them off the cliff. Your point about you

50:16

is in Barbian farmer and the HIV AIDS.

50:19

I'm really struggling. Maybe some Americans who could

50:21

help us try to understand this. Why are

50:23

the former president so silent? I mean George

50:25

Bush that was one of his biggest the

50:28

biggest parts of his legacy And we all

50:30

know he thinks of Trump you can see

50:32

it on his face when he sits there

50:35

in the organization But he's just decided he's

50:37

just going to sit it out and say

50:39

nothing. I Just wonder would there be

50:41

something very powerful if? Biden Obama Clinton

50:43

and Bush got together and warned the

50:46

American people this is unbelievably dangerous. What's

50:48

happening we have to wake up or

50:50

do they just think you know what

50:52

we're the past? People won't listen. I

50:54

don't know. The answer is it depends how

50:56

they do it and how smart they are

50:59

and how alert to the modern media environment

51:01

they are. Do it wrong and the story

51:03

will be here's a bunch of elite

51:06

has-beens. Do it with real wit and

51:08

inventiveness. Troll them back. You could

51:10

actually do a surprising amount of

51:12

damage. But the question is how how

51:14

fleet-footed are these people going to be?

51:17

My friend Greg Newton, who's very good

51:19

to a marketing guy, and he says

51:21

we should stop calling it Doge and

51:24

call it Dodge, as in Dodgey

51:26

as fuck. Because it is, it's

51:28

totally, the whole thing's corruption. Scaramage,

51:30

who's right, they've opened the golden

51:32

era of corruption. So Dodge, let's

51:35

stop calling it Doge, we're going to

51:37

call it Dodge. You've put your finger

51:39

on something we're going to end on,

51:41

and I think it's so important.

51:43

So what... Peter Pomperencef points out

51:45

in Russia in 2000 and

51:47

is the analogy I think

51:49

with Trump today is that

51:52

the reality TV stuff all

51:54

the chat about invading Greenland and

51:56

Canada being the 51st state and

51:58

all the noise creates

52:01

a sort of pseudo debate and

52:03

it distracts you from what's really

52:05

happening. So it creates a kind

52:07

of illusion of a kind

52:10

of democratic debate. Meanwhile,

52:12

Congress is becoming completely

52:14

irrelevant. And the really

52:16

big questions, which you've just raised

52:18

out of power and money, happen

52:20

off stage, a completely opaque, all

52:23

these fireworks are happening on

52:25

social media. But what really is

52:27

happening with Musk. with the data

52:29

in the tax office, with subsidies,

52:31

with personal relationships,

52:34

with conflicts of interest, with Bitcoin.

52:36

And that's what happened in Russia.

52:38

All this stuff was happening on

52:40

TV. And the journalists were like,

52:43

I just can't question what is

52:45

happening in gas and oil. You

52:47

know, how's Abramovich working

52:49

with Berozovsky? I thought Berozovsky owned

52:51

this. Now, Putin's doing this. And

52:54

so I think that that's it.

52:56

Let's it. Let's keep... trying to

52:58

see the policy behind, see

53:00

what happens behind this kind

53:02

of evolution. It's also why,

53:04

going back to our discussion

53:06

on the main podcast this

53:09

week about China, is why

53:11

ultimately we have to train

53:13

ourselves to have deeper and

53:15

broader attention spans and sometimes

53:17

just to say, oh he

53:19

said something really stupid again,

53:21

let's ignore it. not play his

53:23

game, not poke around the turn the

53:25

whole time. Now where you and I

53:27

disagreed with Michael Wolfe, I don't agree

53:29

and you don't agree with Michael that

53:32

you just wait him out. You can't

53:34

wait him out. You've got to fight

53:36

him, but I think at the moment

53:38

this goes back to the question about

53:40

the Democrats. If you fight on

53:42

every single front that they're throwing

53:44

out, all the chaff that they're

53:46

throwing out there, you're just you'll

53:48

dissipate your strategic thinking. Trump every

53:51

week to resist talking about everything

53:53

that he does, but to try

53:55

to maintain an attention span on

53:57

the things that actually beneath the

53:59

surface. are of even more lasting

54:01

damage than the absolute crap

54:03

that he comes out with when he

54:06

sits at his desk with his big

54:08

market pen. And then the problem is

54:10

how do you know when it goes from

54:12

being performance and propaganda to

54:15

reality, how do you spot

54:17

that moment which people missed

54:19

with Putin where he goes

54:21

from sounding like a ethanol

54:23

nationalist? saying he's going to take Ukraine

54:26

to the moment where he actually begins

54:28

believing it and evades Ukraine. So how

54:30

do we spot the moment where Trump

54:32

goes from saying, well I'm going to

54:34

take Greenland and everyone thinks, well he's

54:36

always saying that kind of stuff to

54:38

the moment where the troops get on

54:40

the plane and he takes Greenland? Yeah, well

54:42

you have to win the big battles

54:44

on route and that's why actually the

54:46

European response for all the sort of...

54:49

social media, bullying, intimidation etc. thus

54:51

far I think has been the

54:53

right way. Anyway, quite depressing but

54:55

JD Vance, I know he says that the

54:58

left wing has banned comedy, it's one

55:00

of these many lies, but comedy was

55:02

alive and well with Matt Ford last

55:04

night and I'm on the last leg

55:06

this week following the mooch. Oh, Brinnant.

55:08

Lots more bulldog. Well done you. I

55:11

spoke to Rory Bremma last night,

55:13

you remember the great guy who

55:15

does this amazing imimitations of voices.

55:17

And he was saying one of the

55:20

challenges for comedians is satirizing this

55:22

world is getting more and more

55:24

difficult because it becomes so absurd

55:26

and grotesque, it's very difficult to

55:28

outdo Trump himself. When Trump himself

55:30

is posting videos of him as

55:32

a gold statue in Gaza with

55:34

dancing girls and beards, I mean,

55:36

what's the satirist supposed to do? Okay, Rory,

55:39

well lovely to talk to you as ever.

55:41

Speak to you soon. Speak soon. Thank you,

55:43

Isaac. Bye.