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this episode is brought to you by in-between

0:02

podcast a podcast about marriage

0:04

parenting, faith, and everything in between is

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to

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learn how to build strong connected

0:10

enjoy, sells marriage and family for

0:12

more one

0:37

throughout the production of this podcast

0:39

there were a handful of people we really hope

0:41

to talk to us was inside and outside

0:43

of marcel new

0:45

, top of that list was doctor timothy

0:48

tellers tellers the founding

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pastors redeemer presbyterian church

0:52

in new york city she planted in nineteen

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eighty nine where he served until

0:56

twenty until is also

0:58

the cofounder of city to city a

1:01

nonprofit focused on training pastors

1:03

and planting churches in global six

1:06

days off plant more than eight

1:08

hundred and churches is

1:11

the author of several best selling books

1:13

and is considered and authority considered church panting

1:16

but i think his greatest impact as

1:18

think most people known for his project

1:21

is not flashy snow for our his onstage

1:24

know yelling at sober even

1:26

process soil nobody's

1:28

demonstrated for thirty years his

1:30

way of reading and understanding the world

1:33

and community around them wrestling with

1:35

understanding ideas of skeptics and critics

1:37

and demonstrating that the gospel his way of answering

1:40

our questions and meeting our deepest needs

1:43

see see why it's elder

1:45

brother last night and younger brother losses

1:47

are both terrible younger brother last

1:49

night's with its self indulgent incentives his addiction

1:51

it brings lot of misery and of the world's but elder brother

1:54

losses you can see and look at his anger

1:56

is always angry why the

1:58

angry because he such

2:00

a good life said god the father

2:03

owes him to do things his way

2:06

and , course is your life never except for a few years

2:08

at a time ever goes the where you want want

2:11

you're living a good life because you think that therefore i

2:13

deserve a good life you're always gonna have an undercurrent

2:15

of anger scare always gonna be looking

2:17

down on other people according to jesus

2:20

definition religion is the source of a

2:22

tremendous amount of misery and strife in this in

2:25

i wonder to talk to him for two reasons

2:28

first because of connections to of

2:30

risk their ministries

2:32

intersected at to significant moments

2:35

first in the nineties when driscoll was just starting

2:37

out and then almost a decade

2:39

later when killer was the cofounder of

2:41

the gospel coalition was the gospel car some

2:45

second though a a larger questions

2:48

tim password redeemer for almost three

2:50

decades and his had a front row

2:52

seats to witness the leadership crisis

2:54

that we're talking about on the series we're

2:57

, here reflect on us to talk about

2:59

where he thinks things have gone wrong and

3:01

asked about how he started his own lies

3:03

in character in the midst of a it's

3:07

important to mention that for two years

3:10

thames been battling pancreatic cancer

3:13

and this conversation was recorded in early

3:15

may and in the time since that

3:17

battle has continued including some

3:19

particularly difficult moss i'm

3:22

, grateful that tim may types

3:24

of conversation and all of

3:26

us here city join his family friends

3:29

in a community at redeemer and praying for is

3:31

restored health

3:36

christianity today, you're listening to

3:38

the rise and of mars hill i

3:40

might casper and today's episode

3:43

did an in-depth conversation with

3:45

tim keller

3:52

i know you

3:54

were around spanish river when mark kind

3:56

of for service less

3:59

they're all the way through other

4:02

, just reflect on the story i mean most

4:04

of your first impressions was marked and

4:06

how did you end up involves

4:08

video connect with a more deeply as

4:10

he came into ttc

4:13

the spanish river network which

4:15

was started by david nicholas as

4:18

actually gonna lot of a lot of good he some

4:21

herb it's is planted a lot of churches

4:24

and what david looked forward was

4:27

the his own understanding of dynamic

4:29

leadership it meant

4:32

decisive vision caster

4:34

a me out a whole list and

4:36

what he wanted to do was you want to find those most

4:38

dynamic leaders an innocence

4:41

privilege them promote them fun

4:43

them given the freedom to get out there

4:45

and do their thing and

4:47

he started that largely was largely

4:49

was pc a as dangerous

4:52

america thing he then

4:54

took those of us that he decided

4:56

that we were

4:57

leaders

4:59

any funded us and then he would get

5:01

us together every year pakistan's

5:03

river for the make missions conference

5:05

i was a big big big deal he was

5:07

frustrated though with those of

5:10

us that he funded for this reason he wanted

5:12

very much to create a network that he called x

5:14

twenty nine that was his name what

5:17

he wanted was he said i want these these great

5:19

churches his church that are growing

5:21

with is great leaders and i want them

5:23

to put ten percent of their income

5:25

every year in to have a pot

5:28

and then we're gonna groton get other leaders and we're

5:30

gonna we're gonna just plants or to there were

5:33

and the reason why all of us posts push

5:35

back on that was this was this david

5:37

you don't have a vision for any particular

5:39

place or any particular kind of church

5:42

so for example when you planted church in

5:44

new york city you have a vision for planning

5:47

other churches near said david

5:49

didn't actually have a working philosophy

5:51

of the kind of church he wanted and

5:54

that was actually good because he never control

5:57

the if he thought you were doing well are

5:59

you

5:59

that you're a good leader he just a he

6:02

was very interesting gave was not controlling at

6:04

all he just stood stood

6:06

back

6:06

that if i could criticize him i would

6:09

say it was almost like he made an idol

6:11

out of

6:12

the you know the dynamic leader it

6:14

was like yeah if you the dynamic leader i

6:16

don't care what you want to do alphonse

6:19

and because none of us wanted

6:21

to create that what we would consider a nondescript

6:24

church pointing network that just basically

6:26

funded that the of top dog

6:28

big big dog hide the people

6:31

who could plant big churches and we really wanted

6:33

to have our own movements and particular

6:35

places with bigger churches cartridges

6:37

acid david like pictures

6:40

of course that's when mark driscoll

6:42

and and other friends

6:44

were brought in i remember though the year that

6:47

of they brought he brought the man he started

6:49

funding them and we were displaced

6:52

basically the older presbyterian

6:54

guys who had funded over the years he

6:57

brought us down there and put us on a platform

7:00

it showed us around

7:02

he dropped us not yeah

7:04

, mean if it wasn't

7:06

all that bad been away because most

7:09

of us wanted to kind of move on and

7:12

he really went after hot shots what

7:15

people that were word brash

7:17

that were that david

7:20

like that me and

7:22

so mark actually just utterly fit the

7:24

bill so there was

7:26

an overlap of a year i think or maybe to

7:28

even wear it with the he was there and we were

7:30

there but then we were dropped basically

7:34

so i i have people tell

7:36

me you know you platform marches

7:38

god gives you can target ttc layer and but

7:40

the point i was displaced by parker

7:43

it leads to have a question actually for me

7:45

because that would have been them sort of late

7:47

nineties ninety seven ninety eight something like that

7:49

i think and i'm curious

7:52

because yeah you had gone to seminary

7:54

you had been and ministry for you know

7:57

i used to to clarify your background to might

7:59

be but my

7:59

how will you password

8:02

for wasn't ten years before use planted

8:04

redeemer the correct

8:06

the well actually he where i i pass for

8:08

nine years and night taught at westminster

8:10

summer for five

8:12

because or the majors

8:14

kind of sea change that happens starting

8:17

in the mid late nineteen eighties you

8:19

know but by the late nineties it's really harming

8:21

in terms of the way

8:23

angelic all churches kind of think about

8:26

leadership in general right i

8:28

mean yeah that , is today a bill high

8:30

balls and jack welch is talking about what

8:32

a great leader he is and and

8:34

of the the models are shifting pretty

8:36

dramatically us out where you

8:38

where zaps

8:41

systems swords language and emphasis

8:44

at the time well

8:46

with a person with will look we're

8:49

rolling my eyes two

8:53

things one is i don't fit that

8:55

mold actually i'm a good preacher

8:59

but i'm not that dynamic leader

9:02

actually david nicholas told me in

9:04

the beginning he was worried about me because the said you're

9:06

much more of a professor and you know you don't

9:08

seem like you're gonna be strong enough leader

9:11

am on the other hand am a presbyterian

9:15

and actually presbyterians the presbyterian

9:17

churches can be big but if you ever notices not

9:21

watch a mean yeah some people say

9:23

was incorrect ferguson tim keller cannot be only

9:26

presbyterian celebrities and i might be true

9:29

i'm in right now get an empty

9:31

given to call celebrities and it's usually because of

9:33

books that would make

9:35

what you know what made me a quoted was library

9:37

was my books not this time gonna

9:39

be church as much about the churches

9:42

button were more is more accountability

9:44

and accountability presbyterian setting that

9:46

is are you a quick story which is true one

9:51

presbyterian in my

9:53

denomination the heard

9:55

either rumors or us acid heard

9:57

things i'd say it online of

10:00

the creation evolution adam

10:02

and eve and stuff like that in

10:04

our denomination i do believe in a there

10:07

was an actual adam eve

10:08

that's like we're by gotten from whom we

10:11

descend there was either online chatter

10:13

things i said that made this presbyterian

10:15

feel like i don't think he believes

10:18

in a real adam and eve i think is a thoroughgoing evolutionist

10:20

and that wouldn't fit in with our confessional sanders

10:23

and so five times they wrote

10:25

my presbyterian and

10:27

as them to examine me

10:29

and the reason i pressed the jury has

10:31

to examine the on this if

10:33

they didn't then arts nomination

10:36

as nomination situation which there's a standing

10:38

judicial commissioner my

10:41

my presbyterian could actually say because

10:44

him cows pressure has failed to act

10:46

we want you to axiom a recent recession

10:50

the and is very different world and eventually

10:52

or a listener and so i know

10:54

that her every time they rose they

10:57

say please examine in my asking this question

10:59

so the presbyterian got

11:01

me together means other elders are presbyterians

11:03

pastors and and ruling elders from

11:06

all the churches in our region and they

11:08

examined me and sent back my answers

11:11

and that was it was fine so they had

11:13

another question at five times the substance

11:16

and they were to the amino they were trying to

11:18

get a habit i acted i

11:20

would say that the fourth or fifth time i was

11:22

starting to say come on but i'm

11:24

, and this

11:27

, is now you couldn't do

11:29

that the mark driscoll you

11:31

, do that to behind yeah there's no there's no structure

11:34

for no sweater and for it yeah and

11:36

i'm there , is accountability

11:39

know so you know reason if i'm if i

11:41

step out or a or if i'm abusive

11:44

and somebody in my church and planes

11:47

there's a presbyterian presbyterian

11:49

could exonerate me but than anybody

11:52

any one person can complain to

11:54

, general assembly standing judicial commissioner

11:56

they would look at it on

11:59

it doesn't matter

11:59

perfect she's not at all

12:02

and yet at the same time

12:04

there was a cannabis as the fathom presbyterian

12:06

the fact that i just don't like that

12:08

style at all which he can

12:10

probably tell right here

12:13

as why i chose it's chose it's my nose

12:16

and out the overall

12:18

generally people even at redeemer video

12:20

ends up being a five or six thousand person church

12:22

and we can talk about that there are real

12:25

real pressures that i do understand

12:27

month on why the big with a big church

12:29

regardless night whether

12:32

or not it's presbyterian or independent

12:34

or whatever there are definite pressures

12:37

they can create these blowups nevertheless

12:39

i feel like feel like probably the my personality

12:41

partly because it's my first time his

12:43

temperament not by virtue

12:46

this is not sanctification

12:48

the just your temperament my temperament did

12:50

make me as prone to it as

12:53

i rolled my eyes at it at it like it i

12:55

thought it was bad news and

12:57

i thought frankly was gonna be or bad

12:59

fruits and

13:01

the i sit around and my

13:03

heart you know very sadly saying

13:05

i told you so i'm but no no

13:07

schadenfreude because the the devastation

13:09

is just awful

13:12

the to that brings another question

13:14

for me to nothing that happens there the late

13:16

nineties and i believe city to city

13:18

was connected to this are ,

13:20

was even can i came out of this this

13:22

had organizations like leadership networks looking

13:24

networks evangelism and church gross

13:27

and to different it's like phenomenon

13:30

that were impacting all were this and so

13:32

there was this shift at said at the

13:35

denominational

13:36

this richard planting efforts

13:39

don't seem as effective as

13:41

the finity based partnership snow

13:44

a of death in of a methodist church in

13:46

a baptist church that are trying to reach

13:48

the same town in a might

13:50

have more in common than to baptist churches

13:53

or whatever and so so

13:55

facilitated the formation of a lot of different networks

13:57

that were more loose that weren't a nominee

14:00

the didn't have these accountability structures

14:02

answers , was that a mistake is

14:05

that something that's that

14:07

burned itself out of it's it seems like that's pretty

14:09

strong still have a to have whether

14:11

it's are correct twenty nine or city to city

14:14

city lot of shirt printing seems to continue to sort

14:16

of run through that network

14:18

based lucie county jail he

14:20

high affinity kind of structure

14:23

the i didn't know i'd i would my answer

14:25

is there is mixed here i'm what

14:29

i mean by that is i

14:31

do think that on the one hand city

14:33

city for example you right says that comes

14:35

out as city say would prefer greatly

14:38

prefer that that that the local

14:40

church that we're trying to help get started

14:43

is part of examination there

14:46

in some kind of a can not just the loose network

14:48

for there's no accountability

14:50

but it can a real ecclesial

14:52

connection

14:53

that's some guy

14:54

that's what we would prefer

14:56

and yet the your

14:58

the other side and yeah

15:00

you might say the denomination exclusive

15:02

approach to

15:03

there's planting

15:05

where you go nomination does actually

15:07

everything i don't think

15:10

of for his is way better for

15:12

example to take the methodist

15:14

in the presbyterian and the cares magnet the

15:16

here's here's ten people there are planning churches

15:19

the city the together train

15:22

and together let them know each other that

15:25

enact a rough edges off each other let them

15:27

see how each person's domination

15:29

actually got strengths and weaknesses thanks

15:32

the never you cannot

15:34

do without denominations i don't believe

15:37

a way out is comically zeo connections

15:39

communion real comedians notches

15:42

blues networks he's really can't do

15:44

without them he had every one of them have

15:46

limitations every one

15:48

of them have strengths and weaknesses and so

15:51

you just and and there's no way to avoid it i

15:53

say i'm just like we're going to be nondenominational

15:55

then you have your own problems so what

15:57

we would like to see his are way more collaborate

15:59

the way more

16:01

networking

16:02

the get your church planning done what

16:05

was it dash really really important

16:07

in a city and to work with others them

16:09

to results a but you yourself have

16:12

that i please your connection is a certain sense

16:14

and watch denominations if

16:17

you're you're white or puzzles you know why corpuscular

16:19

they they they fight infections

16:22

you almost need it to be

16:24

interdenominational and in his

16:27

own order to get your read for puzzles the

16:30

images are best at accountability

16:32

and keeping down in a heresy an infection

16:35

but they tend to be met frankly

16:37

mapping hours let

16:39

me be the maybe way of so

16:42

presbyterians got doctrine and

16:44

i got

16:45

the back to jesus and

16:47

and baptists are got outreach and

16:49

activation a lower evangelism

16:51

in the charismatic maybe the anglicans

16:54

have done worship we go get

16:56

and they've all got their own

16:58

vitamin that

16:59

there's their specialty

17:02

that the damage is actually is will never

17:04

do as well they were all catch

17:07

and yet unless you're really knowing

17:09

one another really while you're not going to be able to

17:11

him i say learn from the other domination

17:14

and tradition so that you can in using

17:16

credit and at an oxygen rich

17:18

version of your own denomination

17:21

the lettering i set my response he was

17:23

mixed the reason for

17:25

the networking thing is the freedom

17:28

in the and the and the cross pollination

17:30

and the and how innovative

17:32

it is and the domination seventy

17:34

ray plotting and i agree with that but

17:36

, to say that you should be parmesan nation

17:38

as a works now the only problem that is

17:40

there can be a clash very of the

17:42

domination more control

17:46

i just give you real quick one is in

17:49

new york city right now i think if you're going

17:51

to do an evangelist the glee based church

17:53

plant uni the give people the two years

17:57

most before they can get

17:59

out of eight years at you know a

18:01

worship service up you need to start

18:03

with the church planner and maybe a few other

18:06

laypeople a just evangelize

18:08

you're either for eighteen

18:10

months until you develop fifty

18:13

sixty seventy people who are seekers

18:16

or people have become converted and their

18:18

brain people it takes a couple years

18:20

and then you can when you launch a

18:23

a service

18:24

you are really reaching new people

18:27

now the fans way to

18:29

get a church or is the is that launched

18:31

big with with rate music and everything

18:34

and the reason why you go big real fast as you

18:36

actually just draw people from all the other churches here

18:38

you're basically it was happy cause if

18:40

my my closet the circulation of the saints

18:43

all you're doing is a strong people from elsewhere

18:46

right now here's the problem in

18:48

new york city we work with always

18:50

be nice if domination of and started churches

18:52

but they're getting institutional pressures from their own

18:54

the nominations to go big fast

18:58

they get off the door and a not need

19:00

at the and the it without we the you know

19:02

you don't need financial off anymore because you're already

19:04

have ah hundred fifty people in your self supporting

19:07

that's what they want and yet the church

19:09

planners on the ground realize through

19:12

their network near they're working with all these other church

19:14

planners moises denominations their work with

19:16

experts and serious city people

19:18

who have planted many churches here and

19:21

they're realizing what might wear my domination

19:23

once and what i really need to be doing are

19:25

not same and

19:27

that's a problem and yet we would never

19:30

say of to strap yeah see this

19:32

what marches or do you quit that the nomination

19:34

it is you fire your elder

19:36

your do whatever it takes to grow and

19:39

that's now yeah sorry in

19:41

the and that yeah it'll

19:43

no blow

19:46

the related to that then like redeemer

19:49

did grow redeemer did blow up and

19:51

you planted them and pastor like a really

19:54

big in a really big church a church

19:56

of issue has significant amount of influence

19:58

and million before you published

20:00

her first book you know i was part of a of a church plan

20:02

to church planting church and

20:05

you know i remember that redeemer you

20:07

know the spiral bound redeemer church planting

20:09

manual being handed around like it was this

20:11

secret stash of insights

20:13

from gandalf in new york city

20:15

who'd figured it all out m

20:18

and so you had a reputation before

20:21

the book came out and before can have some

20:23

broader is that happened

20:26

at having unlocked a few things i'm

20:28

curious given

20:30

that you've got some antipathy

20:33

, that culture

20:35

of leadership and of and and and all

20:37

of that how do you think about redeemers

20:40

gross pilot happens slowly

20:42

on a way to me how can i

20:45

do remember when people

20:47

start showing up his redeem really they

20:50

were saying well we're we're saying a well try the willow

20:52

creek model we want to try the redeemer model and

20:54

i said

20:55

we're not a model the

20:58

so for example i did notice they

21:00

will affect my server side so i see that you

21:02

do traditional music

21:04

in the morning and you do jazz at night

21:07

and you do jazz not contemporary christian

21:09

music jazz

21:11

so that's the my was it know which

21:14

my gosh i mean it's met

21:16

in nashville i'm not sure jazz gonna work and

21:18

ask me what what are you talking about and

21:22

course or what is the model as

21:24

a weird we end up coming up with something

21:26

of dna which was a set of emphases

21:29

but not programs and

21:31

we try to say it has a lot to do with

21:34

a number of things one is one

21:36

of the reasons mike for example one of the reasons

21:38

a and when i started this was kind

21:40

of radical late eighties my early nineties

21:43

i wore suit every sunday and

21:46

we sang traditional hymns every

21:48

sunday

21:51

and we saw lot of people

21:53

become christians lot

21:55

of people

21:57

in fact it was really remarkable

21:59

as a couple years there about

22:01

how revival and when people showed

22:03

up to try to say okay i'm or one

22:06

person actually say where the dancing bears are

22:08

you get people here then

22:11

i said the as the reason why i've

22:13

deliberately not done in

22:15

the morning anyway we start having the evening sir

22:17

as for use more severed music the reason

22:20

why deliberately the did you know

22:22

him the sun and suit knowledge if

22:24

is at the key is if you show

22:26

people that the gospel is intellectually

22:29

respectable that it actually exposes

22:32

the real cps of their hearts

22:34

it offers something that they've been looking for other

22:37

lies

22:38

then it's also believable say it's

22:40

that i'm taking this from of blaze

22:43

pascal's famous ponce one eighty seven

22:46

razors show them that christianity is respectable

22:50

then that is desirable the

22:53

they wish it was true then

22:55

though the node is true other it's respectable

22:58

desirable believe what if you do that

23:00

in terms they can understand it does

23:02

matter how you dress

23:04

it does matter what the music is they

23:06

won't get converted and and offering your friends

23:10

and i said i one of the reasons why on

23:12

i've never been a cool ,

23:14

person anyway why the reasons

23:16

why got up there looking like get a little bit like

23:18

s yeah combination

23:21

of college professor that sir thanks

23:23

and therefore he was no model

23:25

it was how do you get the gospel in the people flies

23:28

how you bring it into connection the their hearts

23:30

and such where they say it out what

23:32

for first one is forcing the secrets of their hearts

23:34

will be revealed emma fall down

23:36

the cigar is here and

23:38

you basically had basically know your audience your had

23:40

you had what what were they were struggling you had

23:42

a know where their prejudices were and

23:45

then that here's a second thing so firstly you had

23:47

a have that incredible miss the second

23:49

thing is you how to create a la brea

23:52

kind of community and which nonbelievers

23:55

felt like they were ratified participants

23:59

remember

24:00

that means they felt they felt authorized

24:03

to be there they

24:05

felt that they were not trespassers

24:08

the felt welcomed they felt that they were

24:10

expected

24:11

they were not under pressure to immediately

24:15

the name the nfl

24:18

aubrey was library was in it's earliest

24:20

days a a a

24:22

genuinely attack wilkerson trinity

24:24

where you had preaching and and

24:27

and and prayer it was also

24:29

a place where non christians are expected

24:31

in a rut people are very very patient with them and didn't

24:34

you know condemn them and didn't make

24:37

jokes about them or insist

24:39

that them they immediately to the line and

24:42

then the preaching basically has

24:44

to do what i would call capital

24:47

conversion what

24:49

that means is that people he to say

24:51

you are you you understand my world

24:55

the i come in as an evangelical morning

24:57

and preacher which means i got no cultural capital

25:00

i'm not you know it's eight hours i'm

25:02

a liberal churches a big beautiful buildings

25:05

and they sailed right things because they

25:07

you know that their that their views of the same

25:09

so here comes as evangelical church with all these wrong

25:12

beliefs but what i

25:14

can do as i can get council capital your

25:17

first of all i show that i read the stuff that

25:19

they've read better than they have and

25:22

if i show that i actually i know what they're going

25:24

through and i can articulate their objections

25:27

but of make an object particular item and

25:29

i can also articulate where their heart is

25:32

what that does is effective been set my

25:34

i get the guy get the council capitals

25:37

so basically i'm is aware of

25:39

when i did that they

25:41

, looking for a program as when they sat

25:43

worse if is a remodel remodel

25:46

i said well we are big on the arts is no doubt

25:48

about it and make you know that but it's

25:50

new york is that was easy going

25:52

to everybody you know i had four hundred a month my

25:55

father he might you father know as com gente for

25:57

me as you have forty four hundred

25:59

full time

25:59

professional musicians going to redeemer

26:02

they're yeah yeah

26:05

so me it's yeah we had great

26:07

music

26:09

yeah i mean it it will he we had

26:11

great

26:12

art and all that stuff but that was just being

26:15

true to our community i

26:17

call it one o'clock and sexualization just

26:19

being there's been new yorkers

26:21

he he much i guess you'd my say that was a third

26:24

thing says that we were not culturally

26:26

unless the dead zone farce my say we were not

26:28

unnecessarily culturally alien

26:32

he can we were just try to be like

26:34

the rest of new yorkers in the sense of the

26:37

fact that we cared about artistic of

26:40

excellence , you couldn't come

26:42

and do something musically unless you're really good

26:45

good here how much you love jesus

26:47

he really happy really and in essence

26:49

with where we can new yorkers yeah rather

26:51

yeah we were but not

26:53

in any unusual way so

26:56

there was the contextual there was

26:58

the ratified participants the idea of

27:00

an open community where people so they could be

27:03

and then there was frankly that cultural capital

27:05

conversion the happen through the

27:08

way in which we brought the christian

27:10

message out to people and you know the people

27:12

we shut up and asked what was secret

27:14

sauce uh-huh they were looking for something

27:16

like the willow creek think they were pretty frustrated

27:19

how would you say because

27:22

, was successful in there was gross how

27:24

would you say it was different from

27:27

from models that models

27:30

highly programatic you know gross on know

27:32

like to the boil down a little bit

27:34

down what said what the like

27:36

would be from you

27:39

know the sort of highly message specific

27:41

or or our communication specific

27:44

contact specific vs

27:46

that the that amped up in

27:48

a highly celebrate over ali programatic

27:51

platform driven rights okay

27:53

against the ali agree give you one real

27:56

big difference

27:57

the train redeemer and get a chance you're talking

27:59

about and here's where i really

28:02

i want to say sympathize with with mark

28:05

when i listen to your your podcast type

28:07

it makes perfect sense in the

28:09

early days of days new church

28:11

the series are made very quickly

28:13

because the only person powered make decisions

28:16

based a year the future

28:18

senator and then a

28:20

very small number of people all of

28:22

whom have been attracted to church because view

28:25

is what , when you start a church

28:27

is a self selection process that

28:29

isn't true for anybody else who comes later on

28:31

if the church continues and there's a second

28:33

faster third faster than ever have

28:35

with the first astronaut what the first pass or has

28:38

his people basically select

28:41

themselves out and i like the past or deny the

28:43

preacher they are like the leader is this

28:45

world so the only people who are there are people

28:47

who just think you know they can have worsened

28:49

around you are hunts and in that so

28:51

for at least a year to eat as make

28:54

decisions like this and you can

28:56

respond and a lot of

28:58

it comes from the fact that you can

29:00

very quickly make a decision say is

29:02

a wave your let's catch that are

29:04

we can i can hire that staff person that's

29:07

exactly the right time now what happens

29:09

as the church rose get more more

29:11

empowered people people were

29:13

given their money people spend their time

29:16

and they now feel like i i i have

29:18

a right to say and

29:21

that's exactly what happens when

29:23

when that starts to slow the growth and you

29:25

have more empowered people and and

29:27

decisions take longer that

29:29

you have more people who are

29:31

able to push back

29:34

and you have to do more negotiating canada's

29:37

logo growth down and it also

29:40

makes the whole thing feel more

29:42

like an institution instead

29:45

of a platform for a particular

29:48

personality and certain

29:50

point you have to decide i

29:53

had decide it was very

29:55

difficult for me because i was

29:57

at of is bad mid yeah i said

29:59

at five then i realized either

30:02

i'm gonna have to or i need fewer elder

30:04

as or i need i need to get rid of a couple these

30:06

elders or i have to you

30:08

know streamline things out on

30:10

the one hand are presbyterian actually

30:13

there's actually limit to what i can do there's

30:16

a lotta rules that i can't change and

30:19

secondly i target the

30:22

two things that happened is my personality such

30:24

as i tend to be a peacemaker i that

30:26

does make me by the way overly

30:28

sensitive to criticism

30:30

the flaw

30:31

the harley could i want people

30:33

to be happy and therefore

30:36

they criticize make people happy i'm

30:38

not thick skin and

30:41

so when people would i mean i've learned through

30:43

with , help to handle yeah that's surprising

30:46

to me just knowing you're sort of mostly

30:48

from your public persona that you would

30:50

say that are not thick skin because i mean

30:53

you wade into a lotta stuff and and

30:55

yeah yeah you're you know you can in

30:57

you've you've said it before like in new york you're

30:59

a fundamentalist and everywhere else

31:01

you're a liberal a i'm

31:03

terribly yeah i mean i get lost

31:06

mean unbelievable amount mean criticism i've

31:09

gotten better but you know what here's what my wife

31:11

about sanctification it's not attempt

31:14

to it's how to a

31:16

that it it i a was hard fought

31:21

i say there's a couple of what one is a people

31:23

they don't care you know because i

31:25

i know i'm right and you i

31:28

donald trump i don't care i'm

31:30

certain that the that on

31:33

the other hand there that kind of personality

31:35

and then there's other other kind of person i were you actually hard

31:37

on yourself and

31:39

where did you that is this is bill

31:41

account of people as

31:44

, as a year to sit and like like

31:46

like he starts at who cares with his rabble

31:48

thanks and you why the ways

31:50

that you deal with the heard of the criticism

31:52

is you his you said consider the source

31:55

in other they're stupid they're hideous forget

31:57

them and eater those by

31:59

the way

32:01

in my mind and i don't care

32:04

war i am so sure

32:06

video stupid those

32:08

, non christian ways

32:10

to as in our get

32:12

yourself yourself feeling that

32:15

feeling and so

32:17

partly and i tried

32:19

to citation way which means always struggled

32:22

i really want people to feel like this

32:24

to my church so i i

32:26

did i couldn't run people off i

32:28

just couldn't do that i don't want to do that and

32:32

it was also wrong biblically

32:34

it was impossible presbyterian actually

32:38

and , was also also

32:41

something that i like doing anyway and

32:43

so what happened was redeemer did slow we

32:46

became more bureaucratic we became worse became

32:49

sense as a frustrating he says as president frustrate

32:51

other people is the thing that mark wouldn't that

32:53

happen we see what happened

32:56

was we stayed in his two sons are his have

32:58

lasted and redeemers considering

33:00

on hours and network it's long story with

33:03

network you about it but that pressure

33:05

to say i in order to keep growing i

33:08

got to keep that ability to make

33:10

snap decisions i got to keep all

33:12

the power i cannot share power

33:15

and that that is a fatal mistake i

33:17

look back on it on it a lot of

33:19

power as over the church grow and

33:22

our i mean i was so let the i

33:25

allowed more people to have

33:27

how

33:27

so to make a decision i had more

33:29

people that had away and i look back

33:32

and i don't think it was wrong

33:35

yeah i mean that does seem to be them

33:37

i mean not just as mark amount of seems to that

33:39

point list though many

33:41

leaders throughout this moment

33:44

can , make that pivot to it can

33:46

a different phase of ministry different phase of leadership

33:49

i think about what is a great does a great seen him

33:51

a great great the west wing's

33:53

to kind of literally about this whole thing you know

33:55

you election campaign is over

33:59

and one if you're does he like ran the

34:01

campaign and random self rag

34:03

of you know one hundred dollars a week or whatever screaming

34:05

at everybody and and and to

34:08

sort of makes the thing happen i'm

34:10

, won and they're in transition transition

34:13

he hasn't transitions the way he's leading

34:15

and operating and everything and he just wreaks

34:18

just wreaks i'm

34:20

you know at one point you know if he gets pulled aside

34:22

and this guy says look you you have

34:25

to make this transition were not campaigning any more

34:27

not a governing and it just struck

34:29

me how the parallel like you

34:32

once the churches established and there's

34:34

and certain kind of critical mass

34:37

the entrepreneurial energy that does

34:39

take to get pissing off the ground have

34:41

to pivot because a camps it's

34:44

like the larger mass can't contain it exactly

34:46

table anymore you're anymore you're know what

34:49

i would say this there's institutionalising

34:52

where it's an institution becomes

34:54

though in grown and span is

34:56

filled with turf conscious people

34:58

and it it really loses

35:01

his institutions have a job

35:04

and for the job my be for

35:06

example that has a school the

35:09

job is to educate has

35:11

, have kids but

35:13

the as additional says teachers and administrators

35:17

and when his two sons are sons exist for itself instead

35:19

of for the kids

35:20

goodyear and institutional isn't my

35:23

, it loses its and vision on the

35:25

other hand get to it if you don't

35:27

have an institution it doesn't last last

35:30

it's just always in a growing and

35:32

because somebody doesn't

35:34

allow traditions is

35:36

is of have their traditions and

35:38

, certain number of own power players

35:41

players , there's ways in

35:43

which things are done it so what you want is an

35:45

institution that that keep some that

35:48

dynamics the

35:50

at pure movement actually burn

35:52

itself out as overly

35:54

social institution social guess you could cross

35:57

loses it's reason

36:01

how to get some the base of agents

36:04

tries to give the benefits for the internal

36:06

people and , all know that that can

36:08

happen so what you want for church to be

36:10

is that balance between decision in a movement and

36:13

as well i would rather than trying to keep

36:15

it the movement i tried to find that balance

36:17

and amateur hour ride

36:19

it but that's the answer

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though

40:09

for you you meet mark in the late nineties

40:11

couple years overlap they're fast

40:14

, five six years years

40:17

he wants the gospel the right

40:19

and he's back then his back you

40:23

know what that the nrc

40:25

probably more than anywhere else i mean that's where

40:27

people talk about you platforms

40:30

mark you know right and and people

40:32

me all the way through this influx of his

40:34

podcast you there are several names that people

40:37

kept singing me where cycles does

40:39

, know what is was tim keller think about platform

40:42

remarked a school what is so it's out

40:44

for number of others am how

40:47

do you reflect on that and how i how did that yeah

40:49

i almost become a part of that

40:52

i'm not sure who invited him remember

40:56

this in the very beginning and organization there

40:58

isn't anybody who actually are the gatekeepers

41:01

when you're getting into a room you

41:03

invite people darn carson

41:05

invited people and some of those

41:07

people invited people that's

41:09

all i remember mean

41:12

and

41:13

you get the room and you talked about the vision for

41:15

as organization and

41:18

, look at each other and then decide

41:20

to i want to be in this group

41:23

in a certain sense everybody's the gatekeeper

41:25

that it it's ally gone and tim

41:28

decided who to be in the us for volition

41:31

we were the founders in the sense of we

41:33

were the drivers and we push the thing but

41:35

basically we had in

41:38

our we invited people invite people were looking for people

41:40

with basic affinity were looking for people are broadly

41:43

reformed who are out

41:45

you know ended cat that meant for fab

41:47

down had is less is had my list in

41:49

our doubt he sponsored preaching sponsored

41:52

preaching the were in oil and my this about you

41:54

know trying to have engaged the culture

41:56

but week week so we tried it's

41:58

and have never invited to

42:00

mark better it wouldn't surprise

42:03

me because he was a big noise and and

42:05

seem to be doing well at their and

42:07

so when we formed

42:10

they all looked at each other end

42:12

didn't know each other extremely well

42:15

i find you a little bit more about mark and baseness

42:18

i was there when it out yet

42:20

gets in the it's and your podcast

42:22

once markers making claims

42:25

that were probably just not sure about reading

42:27

a book a day and and

42:30

there was just there was at my brushes his

42:32

father word or i wasn't sure

42:35

when he joins

42:36

that was cited some padded major

42:39

the floor anything like that so we did now

42:41

and so the odds are that that

42:44

that person will keep that in mind in is

42:46

the is didn't make the decision to have

42:48

him on but rather we all

42:50

made all decision to decision to thing together

42:53

the number one number two about mark

42:56

is that

42:57

mark had the pleasure

42:59

we had newcastle

43:01

and thirty two paper in

43:04

an entire group the only people that

43:06

have applied for the idea that a if anachronistic

43:08

think she's me i'm sorry to interrupt myself is

43:11

anachronistic thinking the gospel coalition

43:13

had a platform had this big website now

43:15

the stuff and we invited people like marchers

43:17

go on to it mark had

43:19

the website mark had an enormous

43:21

platform is that is on paper and

43:24

, gas with those had not done done

43:26

lipids we had for out and fact

43:29

done i were so were my

43:31

we are so foresighted our understanding

43:34

of the gospels was was gonna be an annual

43:37

passes conference

43:39

our original thought was more like tg

43:41

t forging

43:43

that's what we really thought we rented they

43:46

were gonna have a passes conference at

43:49

a big frankly i'll just say i've ever done

43:51

saying the me

43:52

you know a little broader than t forgery

43:55

you know little bit the you know little little broader

43:58

he also said less or

43:59

the focus

44:01

the city or we we knew before she was

44:03

are starting at the same family invited them another

44:06

all parties just abortion and

44:09

, felt like he for g was a little more celebrity

44:11

oriented was was bring in the big names with

44:13

a with a big books and all that that

44:15

a was little more of a little

44:18

more combative sounding just a wee

44:20

bit more like in i will more

44:22

saber rattling just a bit was small

44:25

we love these guys fair trade

44:27

your friends but down was

44:29

saying we're not the same

44:31

we're gonna be doing a lot more than just having

44:33

a pass or but with with but

44:35

nevertheless it ritual we thought we going to it's passers

44:37

coffers and we said well maybe we need of a website

44:39

so we were really second this average less

44:42

but frankly it was i

44:44

would say when we said the website it

44:46

was john piper particularly justin

44:48

taylor coming

44:50

over from desire gods and

44:53

it was mark just goes on

44:55

you know a connection the created

44:58

the created the coalition platform

45:02

so maybe that's even more evil precise

45:05

make , could be that in people's minds

45:08

it was be very evil as as gospel

45:10

coalition actually platforms mark

45:12

driscoll which people say all the time

45:15

time keller planet the reality it's

45:18

that mark driscoll platform does

45:21

and engine

45:22

hyper that want us and create

45:24

the platform

45:26

which we didn't have

45:27

and

45:30

maybe that's more evil about yeah

45:32

but that's the truth

45:34

and it went well as as

45:36

time went on and the i want one of

45:38

the big is the third thing with the gospel coalition

45:40

is our denomination so

45:43

when when bad behavior and not just

45:45

mark driscoll but also jane mcdonald also

45:47

cj people i guess when

45:49

when bad behavior began

45:52

, and bad reports began to come

45:54

out about members of the council

45:57

we were going we hadn't

45:59

thought out what do about that way

46:02

we had bylaws read nothing about anything

46:04

like that and we were all strategy go with

46:06

the heck are we

46:09

the idea that tim and dawn ran

46:11

the thing

46:13

we really didn't fit nobody really

46:15

ran the saying it was really a fallacy so

46:18

yeah i think we've been bloodied right

46:20

way our is people who want to say yeah

46:23

you you you brought all these folks

46:25

together and then he didn't really have a good way

46:27

of exercising any kind

46:30

of what what he say he can't say discipline

46:33

they're not sure

46:35

that some kind of oversight i

46:38

do think that's right so what now i'd

46:40

die i'm sorry i am i

46:42

reject the idea that we platform mark driscoll

46:45

i just hope that from does once

46:48

the bad behavior showed up i do think the gospel

46:50

coalition wasn't really able to

46:52

know what to do because whoop nobody father

46:54

i am i have a job to

46:58

paul a plug or get even get a process

47:00

started

47:01

unfortunately

47:03

they voluntarily

47:06

you know where because they realize that they

47:08

were dominated the in the

47:10

vikings mcgowan

47:12

the at a have and march i left

47:14

because they could tell that we were durian have the

47:16

most miserable and happens friends

47:18

at the as that's probably verso

47:21

province of a more formal than that

47:23

yeah i think i think was interesting

47:25

it is it does come back to this kind of

47:28

denominations , networks sam

47:31

it says because there's the perception

47:33

of much more sort of institutional

47:36

strength and architecture than

47:38

was really there i mean there was nothing that sounds

47:40

like that we go back and assumes that own i think that's fair

47:43

okay you know i to say

47:45

to say i think that's right i

47:47

do think us with illusion

47:49

the just space in i'm brother

47:51

i'm very happy that the gospel version

47:53

overall i think it's some odd agree work

47:56

so i'm not but i

47:58

do think that there is a

48:00

the participate in the weakness the

48:03

even juggle parrot church empire

48:06

and it's been a problem ever since george mitchell

48:10

the pair church empire and power

48:12

in my domination or five people that just

48:15

july

48:16

ten

48:19

i won't mention a bad name at me i

48:21

got some really good friends or just saying why in the rub

48:23

the area involve vegas for provision because

48:25

it's suffer as if that kind of it's

48:27

at a evangelical para church network

48:30

that doesn't have any accountability and the

48:32

problems you've had or because it's system

48:34

is my real

48:36

that get that sleazy or

48:38

it's involuntary the association

48:41

but when you push those folks are

48:43

you against every voluntary association

48:46

you're not against that i mean you know

48:48

that but that but it does participate

48:50

in a problem be right

48:52

the same yeah it's i mean i just think it's an interesting

48:55

you know it's a it's a reflection of the reality

48:58

of the way the unreflective

49:00

a better terms of christendom thinks about

49:03

churches leaders those associations

49:06

there's , assumption of a of a kind of

49:09

of and knowledge and

49:11

on a disorder now right

49:14

and now we see it as one of his to the

49:16

blocks yes ma'am file is even zoc

49:18

world not the mainline world that as

49:20

always seen that

49:22

, terriers of ministry

49:24

would be

49:26

would be these these are church

49:29

organizations the events or go empire the

49:32

i do think that is great weaknesses

49:34

added it's it's a fruit of revival isn't are

49:37

you just a great book to read mikey the haven't

49:39

read it before it's even nicer it's

49:41

not a paste articles academic but or

49:44

nay patches book can

49:46

you know the democratization of american

49:48

christianity democratization revivals

49:51

was really kind of anti occlusion

49:54

they will put all games on the individual and

49:57

dynamic individual

49:59

the individual

49:59

got a charisma and

50:02

that they disbanded gather disbanded they just do it and

50:05

they and they way they they do and runs

50:07

around the town of those virtues of congregations

50:09

and domination sense and

50:12

guess what upside down side the

50:15

baggage you say originally though baptists

50:17

eventually became examination originally

50:21

i just are you have said downside if you're on it if

50:23

you're in kentucky and iran the here

50:25

and became a christian and now i want to be a

50:27

minister

50:29

that presbyterians episcopalians a cargo

50:31

since would send you back these coast for seven

50:33

years of liberal arts education and

50:36

, baptists would just lay hands on you and say here

50:39

it's out what's the advantages and

50:41

disadvantages the back to screw like crazy

50:45

because they were of the people right

50:47

but they didn't have of the odds were trying it was incredible

50:50

thinness and a

50:52

lot of the venture article anti intellectual

50:54

was incomes from that move the

50:57

reason why evangelicals are largely

50:59

reason why there are so powerful in a certain

51:01

sense and why they're so individualistic

51:04

anti intellectual the anti

51:06

leaders anti accountability is because

51:08

of that move okay

51:11

so yeah the fruit of revivals

51:15

the of it was okay to that's that's

51:18

really interesting i hadn't and

51:20

i had not sought in those terms

51:22

what i had sought in terms as and

51:24

i know this know this that you talked

51:27

about you know ad nauseum

51:29

probably is the

51:32

way that that secularism has for

51:34

tests saved the church yeah

51:36

in ways that incline it towards cult

51:38

of personality as well because

51:41

, do have this you know would you

51:43

have this know you that we come up and were

51:46

spirituality is difficult it's difficult

51:48

on the the structures

51:50

of the imagination and someone these characters

51:53

come along that have the kind

51:55

of sort kind confidence and absolute

51:57

authority of authority of a guy like driscoll his

52:00

heard the voice of god knows how you're supposed

52:02

to live your life you know and and

52:04

with that really strong declaration of authority and mean

52:06

there's something really the or think

52:08

it's compelling in the same way that a guy like trump

52:11

showing up say i alone can fix it

52:14

has , housing authority that that

52:16

we crave distant undermines and

52:18

other other ways in our culture right that

52:21

is just as important as

52:23

the you the they events or or revivalist

52:26

background

52:27

the everything is you've got basically the modern self

52:30

you know over the therapeutic self and

52:33

, therapeutic south is that the

52:35

year every individual needs

52:38

are trying of they trying of their pre eminent

52:41

that nobody can tell you you are you

52:43

have to decide true for yourself you acted

52:45

as a to look inside yourself and

52:48

com and become a self

52:50

actualized individual because you are living

52:52

true to who you know yourself to

52:54

be and of and a what you know the

52:56

truth to be because you found that inside

52:58

as all incredibly

53:01

you know three habits

53:03

of the whole time

53:04

robert bella expressive

53:07

, and by the way but it's just

53:09

i'm at i'm i target was going on launch

53:12

there's a chapter in their of on sheila

53:14

isn't isn't is the heart back

53:16

in the nineteen eighties as talking about this

53:19

rise of expressive individualism have

53:21

to give a therapeutic self

53:23

therapeutic they found a woman who they

53:25

said was your religion and she says well

53:28

my religion is i listened to a voice

53:30

in my own heart

53:32

the what is right what is wrong or

53:34

name is sheila by the way as , says

53:36

or my religion i i have a name for my

53:39

religious is a is

53:41

sheila isn't

53:42

these i worship that little voice

53:44

in my heart that tells me what to do i

53:46

live in accordance with that and

53:49

, that's my religion is she was mom there's

53:51

only one person in my religion is just

53:53

me and as and classic

53:55

by the way and i do think is it says

53:58

sf says something sf a

54:00

long term somebody who

54:02

says you know i looked into my heart

54:05

and i know the truth and they seem

54:07

like the kind of person you want to be

54:09

yourself

54:10

missy wallace's arden worship

54:13

said he said if she wrote an article for gas pollution

54:15

on don't sit dot don't

54:17

sit necessarily seek your passion

54:19

in order to find your work it

54:21

out people say i need to find my find

54:24

my nice the os my passion

54:26

wherever my work is as we somehow really

54:28

love doing something it's a passion

54:30

and she says

54:31

they'll be great any

54:34

it's not the main thing

54:36

boy she she says her own children so giver

54:39

back on it because she says

54:42

that is not the way the bible of said

54:44

the high you should get from work is that your

54:46

work contrary to the common good

54:48

it really helps people

54:50

there should be a passion for

54:53

, or not the very thing you're doing

54:55

necessarily assists exciting everyday

54:57

we i just loved on the outskirts is love it

54:59

if you rise what i'm doing is actually helping

55:02

people run doing is making a living from my family

55:04

family does it has to be your passion she says no

55:07

and the idea that you has to be this

55:09

incredible fact incredible have to be so fulfilled

55:11

in every part of my life she's life thought the

55:13

bible that's thought that's bible modern self

55:17

you're absolutely right that contributes very

55:19

much into what's going on to and unfortunately

55:21

they have that there's a certain kind of figure

55:24

that makes people feel like there's a self

55:26

actualized individual connection

55:29

with with say his ear minister insisted

55:32

a man or woman under god the

55:35

other thing that i noticed nobody

55:37

talks about it anymore the weather use them

55:39

i'm mistaking of vs

55:42

and race and

55:45

that is that there's a tendency

55:47

to look at the spiritual gifts for say for

55:49

things like you're preaching you're teaching and your

55:52

administration and your leadership and

55:55

yeah that that's your talents as it is is

55:57

really

55:58

what you do

56:01

spears and graces the food is for

56:03

is what who you are lovejoy

56:05

peace patience kindness goodness is

56:09

actually natural in

56:11

our culture especially especially in a therapeutic

56:13

culture especially you know

56:15

consumer culture especially in a

56:18

the gods for culture

56:20

the not look at being but look at doing

56:22

and so what's going on in the hell

56:24

are these mega churches frankly

56:26

that everywhere is what

56:29

everybody's castrating on is really not

56:31

the character of the leaders but the yeah

56:33

but the town and i'll tell you a a

56:35

quick frightening story on

56:38

the minister

56:40

had an affair

56:41

the woman is hard to get some and

56:44

if it is it came out in and of course

56:46

that term blow up everything

56:50

and i remember at one point i had breakfast

56:52

with him and we were talking

56:54

and for whatever reason he was willing to

56:56

talk a little bit about how he maintains

56:58

the ability to the

57:01

to be congregation while

57:04

he was having an affair for pretty

57:06

good balance i mean it's only home was but it wasn't

57:08

like in greece and

57:11

he said you would happen i'm

57:14

friday and saturday as use working on a sermon

57:16

is conscious for to start killing him

57:19

how can you guess they are breach when

57:21

you're doing this

57:23

and then he would say on

57:25

monday usa

57:26

i'm gonna on monday i'm going it color

57:29

and will be over

57:31

and i would give his conscience just

57:33

enough room so he could actually

57:35

write the sir

57:37

and do the same without feel like every

57:41

then is this would kick

57:43

him and even though his heart was far

57:45

from god and he was feeling guilt and news

57:47

for life isn't terrible and all that

57:50

with , situation bribes guess he's great

57:53

he was a great speaker and

57:55

he saw people crying and he saw people were

57:57

saying people were decrypt faith in christ and on monday

57:59

the guy's voice for with me

58:04

that's mistaking the activate

58:06

the operation of gifts

58:08

for the work as spirits of fruit and

58:10

racing your life and this

58:13

this all over the place and

58:15

here the frightening thing the people in closest

58:17

to the person they see the like

58:19

a free

58:20

the people out here can't or they can we see the guess

58:24

surveys you like a fruit they say the

58:26

you know the grumpiness or the abuse of this

58:28

or the ah , anger or

58:30

the in the yeah the pride where the

58:32

self centeredness mama and

58:34

they start to lose their respect

58:37

for the leader with the because soon

58:39

as i started to criticize the people here who

58:41

don't see bath barely see the guess they

58:43

just attack anybody who criticizes

58:46

right you saw that and is all

58:48

vic it's all because

58:49

the gives the great thing

58:51

the people close see the lack of grace

58:54

the people are you can only see the guess an

58:56

unforeseen very often the people up here they're

58:58

trying to keep the operation going they

59:01

see the lack of grace but they also know that they

59:03

can financially afford anything

59:06

other than just keep this person in power

59:10

so that's there are

59:12

ways i was losing tier stefan

59:14

marshall

59:16

that was the other thing i want to say despise

59:18

i mean i've i've i've mentioned a number of things

59:20

here but i thought that's something i need to add milk

59:23

for that argue find that helpful know

59:25

it is really helpful i i know we

59:27

, the things i think a number salts salts

59:30

love to hear you speak to as if

59:32

there's anything to add to it to no

59:34

it's how you count for your own longevity

59:37

a ministry i'm a use in

59:39

a long runs is done long enough worst

59:43

and i think of a number of people look

59:45

to you as somebody who's who's endured well

59:47

and navigate and endured lot of this to

59:49

stuff when you speak to younger

59:52

pastors and leaders at one of the things you

59:54

would point to insane

59:56

this is this is what's gonna keep you from

59:58

going to the zoos

1:00:00

i think earlier on one

1:00:02

of the things that helps view continue

1:00:04

to grow and grace and not get

1:00:06

are you

1:00:08

not get inflated ego

1:00:10

not , have

1:00:13

get blind get i think

1:00:15

earlier on hebrews three thirteen

1:00:17

fellowship and forgive me i'm

1:00:19

so that i'm they put this mccain james

1:00:22

which is exhort one another daily

1:00:25

plus to be hardened by the deceitful necessary

1:00:28

would you use a place where it says

1:00:30

you gotta some people in your life who

1:00:33

, you daily because sin

1:00:35

will always blind you the deceitful mrs

1:00:37

and always blinds blinds who

1:00:39

is it in your in that actually

1:00:42

life authorized to

1:00:44

come talk to you and go look

1:00:46

at you really you know break your

1:00:48

you calls necessary i think

1:00:50

in the earlier days of my ministry

1:00:53

earlier was extraordinarily important it's

1:00:55

awfully health of on the people awfully happens you

1:00:58

happy marriage because they

1:01:00

can see things that nobody else can see clients'

1:01:03

mothers

1:01:04

as time went on a

1:01:06

here's what yeah but as tap and you

1:01:08

can harsh

1:01:11

even from people like that

1:01:13

i realize that you

1:01:15

know midway you can do you can you can still

1:01:17

do bad thing you can start of an affair you can still do

1:01:19

things so getting it hooked on pornography

1:01:23

the pornography you can hide and

1:01:27

also , other problem is that

1:01:29

it's very difficult to make friends like that

1:01:32

that if you lose them the somebody dies

1:01:34

or somebody moves away or back and

1:01:36

thing is very is to

1:01:38

are in your fifties and sixties and

1:01:40

forty states as as is the kind of go

1:01:42

out and get another person like that and

1:01:45

therefore of august fertilise

1:01:48

i'm sorry it's it's and

1:01:50

it's not just praying about things

1:01:52

of communion was gone reid

1:01:55

john i was little book start with a bridge

1:01:57

sedition china was little

1:01:59

book

1:02:00

a dream you godfather some high

1:02:02

school

1:02:03

leave out this stuff on the song of solomon

1:02:07

when , goes offer pages and pages

1:02:09

expanding as long as solomon and like this

1:02:11

describes you apart from that

1:02:14

i mean that book is unbelievable i just

1:02:16

reread it recently and it

1:02:18

talks about the purpose of prayer

1:02:20

is the actually have this love

1:02:22

have this god shudder brought on your heart i

1:02:26

mean the actually habit that we

1:02:28

see his face to

1:02:31

actually sense the grace of god

1:02:34

emmy , he says is you have communion

1:02:36

with the father in his love with the sun

1:02:38

it is grace and with always fitness comfort

1:02:41

comfort they're actually has to be a genuine experience

1:02:44

or life not just say your prayers are just read your

1:02:46

bible they eat and

1:02:48

you have to be able to also take

1:02:50

you need to be finding your most be

1:02:52

deepest besetting senses com mortification

1:02:56

that modification is a black

1:02:58

old your it nord that does not mean repenting

1:03:00

for something you've already done london

1:03:03

modification is

1:03:05

identifying that your besetting sense

1:03:08

that and you're going to try to

1:03:10

weaken them before they leave to

1:03:12

actual behavior

1:03:15

and over the years only with my

1:03:17

son was a key with god you identify

1:03:19

your three or four five must besetting

1:03:22

sense and find ways

1:03:24

to apply and and report a for

1:03:26

our would say you the fi jesus to

1:03:28

him you know you have to say

1:03:30

in what way does jesus actually

1:03:33

looking up and she's isn't what he's done

1:03:35

how does that weekend

1:03:37

this this this inordinate desired

1:03:39

my heart happens is we were evil as my heart

1:03:42

you have to have to have fertilize

1:03:45

and if you're too busy for that and i have to say

1:03:47

the more successful your churches the more likely

1:03:50

you're going to feel too busy for the

1:03:53

deadly of the other thing is

1:03:55

early

1:03:59

it doesn't have a couple weeks ago it

1:04:02

was so attuned to having to having

1:04:05

a technique for everything the

1:04:07

when it comes to this stuff like that the

1:04:09

boring true answer is

1:04:12

the if you if you want

1:04:14

to guard your heart's in the stuff like live the

1:04:16

customize it , tight

1:04:18

their their and

1:04:21

six alerts face and be humble and successor

1:04:23

sims and the killing

1:04:25

center it'll be killing you and all that fair

1:04:28

and all know if i would even

1:04:30

are you this is

1:04:32

, little the only will accountability

1:04:35

let me that just and not be avoided

1:04:40

is when you experience

1:04:42

god's presence and is was

1:04:46

canada so delicious that you say i

1:04:48

just hope it doesn't happen every day

1:04:50

it it just leaves is nothing

1:04:52

like that or the i do the

1:04:54

i do not wanna lose it

1:04:56

i bought versa

1:04:58

that's the only accountability i know

1:05:01

even a candidate my wife i get along very

1:05:04

how their accountability and even just a paralyzed

1:05:08

what you pray i mean i'm i will pray

1:05:10

everyday in , the real question

1:05:12

is are you having fellowship without her team with

1:05:14

god and , to

1:05:17

mean without his was the crisis grace

1:05:19

whispers comfort

1:05:21

do you and if you do that

1:05:23

thing you say i can't live without that

1:05:40

the rise and fall of mars hill is production

1:05:42

christianity today if ,

1:05:44

produced by eric feature feature produced

1:05:47

written and mixed by my by

1:05:50

this episode was edited by was hester

1:05:53

our associate producers or joy that smith

1:05:55

or as results music

1:05:57

in this episode seekers and

1:05:59

phelps graphic , by

1:06:02

brian part social media of i

1:06:04

gave lectures lectures editors

1:06:06

she's listening

1:06:09

for season