0:01

Hi friends, it's the Robcast.

0:03

It's episode three, six, four.

0:06

And I haven't had,

0:09

there hasn't been anybody but me in the garage

0:11

in a long time. So Jeremy Wilson is with

0:13

me. Welcome to a corner of the garage. You

0:16

know, hi. Well, thank you, Rob. Jeremy's

0:19

Sprinter van is parked up front that

0:22

you and your girlfriend are living in for a while. So

0:24

we just, I got the full tour just now.

0:26

Correct. That's fantastic. So here

0:28

are my friends. Here's the premise. The

0:31

premise of this Robcast made me laugh so hard.

0:33

I was like, we have to do it. And

0:35

then Jeremy agreed. So I was like, oh,

0:37

this is gonna be, this is gonna

0:39

be a good time. So here's how it works. Here's

0:42

how it's gonna work. You sent me an email

0:44

on December 8th, 2023. Do

0:48

you have the email in front of you, right? Okay. Here's

0:51

how the email, he sent me this email and

0:53

it says, hey Rob, I just finished your book.

0:55

Wow, wow, wow. I loved it. So

0:57

I figured I'd overstep

1:01

my, wait, I'd overstep my boundaries.

1:04

Wait, wait, wait, I gotta give the

1:06

subject. The subject line was unsolicited feedback.

1:08

I'm where'd you park your spaceship? Were

1:12

you laughing when you typed that as the subject

1:14

line? I write most emails with no subject line.

1:16

And at the very end, I'm like, it can't

1:18

just say no subject. And I was like, what

1:20

is this? This is nothing Rob asked

1:22

for that I'm sending him. So here you go.

1:26

So unsolicited feedback. So Jeremy, here he is.

1:28

Hey Rob, finished your book. Wow, loved it.

1:30

So I figured I'd overstep my boundaries, which

1:32

already had me laughing, and

1:34

send you some unsolicited feedback as if

1:37

we know each other very well. Really,

1:40

there are a few things I wrote down as

1:42

I read that I hope an interviewer asks you,

1:44

plus some lines I love. And

1:47

then you proceeded to list

1:49

a whole series of questions

1:51

you wished an interviewer would

1:53

ask about the book. Yes.

2:00

I love that. Even

2:02

the Overstood, the Mount, all of it to me, I was

2:05

like, well that, I

2:08

should just send an email back. Let's

2:10

do your email as a

2:13

Robcast episode, which even now

2:15

I'm saying it is so like, duh, Captain

2:17

Obvious, and I must

2:19

say slightly marvelous and brilliant as well.

2:23

So you have the email in front of you, and

2:26

where do you want

2:28

to start? I think we

2:30

should let everyone know that if you

2:32

want to get on the Robcast, you just

2:34

email you, right? So everyone

2:36

should email Rob, here's his email. So

2:41

let's start, I want to start with a general observation

2:43

I had. First off, I've never taken

2:45

notes reading a fiction book before,

2:47

but I found myself just

2:49

pulling up my Notes app all the time

2:51

and just writing these things down as we went. And

2:55

as I'm doing that, I was like, man,

2:57

this Notes app is getting really long as I'm

2:59

going through it. So

3:01

one general observation off the top is,

3:04

I think you've mentioned this,

3:06

so if you're tired of talking about this,

3:08

stop me. But it seemed really fun

3:10

to write this book did, like

3:12

you can tell and reading it. And

3:17

did this book come way quicker than your other books to

3:20

you as far as the word spilling out? Yes.

3:24

Yes, so much so that it was disorienting and

3:26

slightly troubling to me. Partly

3:30

because if you go around talking to people about writing

3:32

and creativity and flow and all that, and

3:34

then all of a sudden you're

3:37

experiencing something you've never experienced before

3:41

humbling. Humbling

3:44

isn't a strong enough word for

3:46

it. And it really did. How

3:52

did I say this? It

3:55

almost demanded kindly, but it

3:58

demanded all the stuff. stuff

4:00

that I would say as a

4:02

tangent or an aside because

4:04

I was doing, I'm

4:07

doing air quotes now, serious work. Like

4:09

I'm explaining to you the spiritual truths of how the world

4:12

works. But then I would go

4:14

off and make up some character or

4:16

tell some story. There

4:19

was something about how it was like, no, all

4:22

the stuff that's most delightful that

4:24

you label as tangents

4:28

or riffs or almost

4:30

like the not

4:34

sugar, the sugar that makes the pill go down. That's the phrase

4:36

that I don't like that phrase, but you know what I mean?

4:38

Like all the stuff for years

4:40

you've been doing like that

4:43

is asking to be the center, move it to the

4:45

center. So you

4:48

love make, you love names and words. Okay.

4:50

So make up names,

4:52

all the names. You

4:55

love how people

4:58

move, what they do, what they say, they're

5:01

the odd quirks and little tells and

5:03

hints and that's the stuff

5:05

that's always fascinating. My parents would do,

5:07

my parents would have dinner parties when I was in

5:10

junior high or high school and I would, the

5:13

kids would run off and I would sit at the

5:15

table and watch these adults. And

5:18

I can remember they'd leave and

5:20

my dad and I would be like clearing the table and

5:23

it's like 10 at night and I'd be

5:26

like, why does so and so always

5:28

look at his life that particular way? And why

5:30

does that woman, why

5:32

do all her stories follow the same? All

5:36

this to me was always just the stuff of

5:39

life. And then also like I got into the very

5:42

important work, very important spiritual

5:44

work. Right. Yeah.

5:46

So it, yeah, to, to

5:50

let it, how'd I say it?

5:53

To let it be that enjoyable and

5:56

just follow it. Yeah,

6:01

like that. Well,

6:04

you were at that two-day last year. Was

6:11

it fascinating how many times the person

6:13

would be, you could see

6:16

them almost like tapping into a vein? And

6:19

people who had just met them over the past two days

6:21

would be like, yeah, that's, and

6:24

how, in some ways

6:26

disorienting. So if

6:28

you watch people wrestling with, is

6:31

it okay that I just do this?

6:33

You know what I mean? Right, right. It's

6:35

very strange that way. I

6:38

want to put a pin in the observing part of it, of what

6:40

you were doing as a kid at the dinner table. Because,

6:44

that's a huge theme of the book, right?

6:47

Is being at a distance, and

6:49

the main character, the

6:51

narrator, is doing that. Let's say

6:53

his name, Hane Grubares, which, we're

6:55

going to say all these names

6:57

like that in noon, yeah, and

6:59

act like they're Bill and Sally.

7:03

But way more fun. So, yeah, the

7:05

observing thing I want to get to

7:07

later on, certainly, but the way, the

7:09

speed that this came out, or

7:12

onto the page for you, have

7:14

you ever read Jack Kerouac's On The Road?

7:18

Bits of it, or sort of spills. Yes,

7:21

and he famously wrote it on

7:25

one huge scroll that he

7:28

put together himself over like three weeks. And

7:31

that scroll, by the way, Jim

7:34

Erce, the cult's owner, is such

7:36

a billionaire thing, owns that

7:38

scroll for millions of dollars. That's random,

7:40

and it's random that we know that.

7:42

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And

7:45

so, anyway, just the speed that that was coming out, it

7:48

reminded me of that, which, it was

7:50

apparent in the best way. Just one

7:53

example, I think, I can't remember if I emailed

7:55

this to you or not, but you

7:57

say in this one line, I'm forgetting

7:59

who it is, describing it say her voice is

8:02

unexpectedly deep and gravelly is that a word scratchy

8:06

so and my own

8:08

writing and and your your previous

8:10

books would you have said is that a

8:12

word yeah right

8:14

there's like a putting

8:17

the narration put

8:19

putting the

8:21

act or the description on

8:24

the page but then putting the

8:26

reflection and narration of the act on the

8:28

page as well correct which is what we

8:30

we actually love that when people do that

8:33

when people are like telling us a long drawn-out

8:35

story but we're actually but it's actually quite entertaining

8:38

and they'll stop and be like is this not

8:40

the longest story you've ever heard I'm finding myself

8:42

wondering why I keep telling the story and then

8:44

we just keep telling the story yeah it's like

8:46

the thing in your head is actually often quite

8:49

interesting mm-hmm yeah look the naming the naming of

8:51

it yes yeah yeah it's like it's like we're

8:53

letting each other know we're in on our own

8:55

joke mm-hmm because I'm reading your book at

8:59

the same time I'm trying to write my first book and when

9:01

I'm writing my first book I

9:03

would think gravelly like you did

9:05

that line and then I would spend 15 minutes

9:07

on thesaurus.com oh is that

9:09

the right word to use oh is that

9:11

even a word and then as if I'm

9:13

like Steinbeck or someone yeah and then or

9:16

me I would have to do good writers use a word like

9:18

that does that make me appear like

9:20

not a very good writer or like not

9:22

serious or is that too whatever

9:26

trivial bingo I would have a whole running

9:28

dialogue about how I would be perceived and

9:30

and maybe you're seeing it through the eyes

9:32

of someone important air quote who's

9:34

reading who's reading it yeah and

9:36

thinks gravelly oh yeah as if

9:39

you could never say that yeah so but I

9:42

mean just writing or reading your book I was

9:44

like okay if you can say gravelly

9:46

is that a word this book was fun to

9:48

write and if it's not fun doing this why

9:51

the hell do it right right

9:53

right yeah you're you're pulling

9:55

out something really compelling

9:57

like and her voice was deep and kind of

9:59

gravelly Is that a word? Well

10:04

it's also interesting because he's the

10:06

narrator, but

10:09

he's oddly who's he

10:11

asking? Like anytime

10:13

someone's narrating in a book but then

10:15

they ask a question, who

10:18

are they asking the question of? So it

10:21

can create a very trippy

10:24

intimacy between

10:26

a narrator and the

10:29

reader. They're

10:32

not acknowledging that anybody's actually reading

10:34

this, but they are. Heen

10:37

is. I've not

10:39

to step on anything that you might be working on

10:41

in the future. I've wondered when reading it, oh

10:44

I wonder if Heen is telling all of this to

10:46

someone at

10:48

the very very end. Let

10:56

me ask you a question that I'm trying to think

10:58

of a way where it doesn't sound offensive. On

11:02

my drive here in the Sprinter van, bouncing

11:05

down the streets of Ojai, I was like, okay,

11:09

anyone who's doing something new, so books

11:12

about spaceship are new for you, true

11:14

or false? True. I

11:17

actually pause like I need to really think about, true.

11:21

Anyone who's, I don't know, I think about

11:23

people getting into music, I think about people

11:25

writing, anything. They're

11:28

doing work that no one's asking for, is that

11:30

fair to say? Like

11:33

an industry publisher

11:36

is not asking me

11:38

currently for my book, but

11:40

I just know I have to do it. So

11:43

I know what that's like because I'm starting out. You've

11:47

been around the block with writing, of course,

11:49

but what I'm curious about is what was

11:52

it like for you this time working

11:54

on something that no one was asking for?

11:57

Assuming that no one was asking for the Rob

11:59

Bell spaceship? book yeah

12:03

does that sound instantly I oh

12:08

I wouldn't

12:11

if I took this to a publisher they'd

12:13

be like what the here's my new book

12:15

what the this isn't a Rob Bell book although

12:18

I had like but but

12:21

I am Rob Bell

12:23

so it is so right

12:25

away I was like I that wouldn't that conversation

12:27

wouldn't work so

12:29

it was like you

12:32

you would just have to do it you're you'll have

12:34

to do that yourself so strangely

12:36

enough it was like this no one may

12:39

ever read this no

12:42

one may care it may

12:44

sit in your laptop forever for

12:47

which was wonderfully

12:50

freeing I didn't

12:52

even tell many

12:55

people friends or anything it took a

12:57

while and so it was

12:59

free so so

13:01

perhaps that's what and

13:04

several people have mentioned that maybe that's what

13:07

we pick up sometimes in something is it's originating

13:11

imprint had

13:14

a certain there was nothing it like

13:16

there's a clarity or innocence

13:19

or purity to it or something it's just what it's

13:21

not already wondering what it's going to be in the

13:23

world it's like gave that game up ahead

13:27

of time will anybody

13:29

like it not an interesting question will

13:32

it sell not like

13:35

those sorts of quite just weren't

13:37

even how do you subtitle it to make

13:39

sure that when it's on the rack at Barnes

13:41

& Noble people go oh that looks like a

13:43

what do they say a problem I

13:45

have that somebody has a solution to or the ways that

13:47

like in the publishing world you would

13:49

talk very practically about a book all that that

13:52

I had been in

13:54

for well over a decade

13:56

was just weirdly

13:58

like gone I

14:00

mean, honestly, the books

14:03

I would be writing the book knowing the

14:05

next year and a half of getting

14:07

ready to release the book, like what's the

14:09

subtitle? What's the inside flap? All

14:11

the things that go into a book

14:14

would be sitting there when I was typing

14:16

just a paragraph. So the book experience for

14:18

me got fairly cluttered because you

14:21

already know the whole larger thing about it. So

14:24

to just have all that almost

14:26

like crater or evaporate was

14:29

actually a wonderful gift. To

14:31

even realize, oh, this might actually

14:33

cost money. You

14:38

might be really being a proper whole when

14:40

this is over. It was

14:43

strangely, counter-intuitively

14:48

like a gift because it

14:50

was just, I don't know what this is,

14:52

I don't know why I'm typing on a

14:54

Tuesday late afternoon this scene and I'm overwhelmed

15:01

with emotion. It's

15:04

opening me up, healing me, like

15:06

this is doing something to me.

15:10

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah,

15:13

that's beautiful. And

15:17

I just think about the

15:19

way, so when you're on that Tuesday afternoon that

15:21

you're writing, do

15:24

you, maybe compare this to your

15:26

older books too, did you know where the

15:28

story was going or were you

15:30

chasing it every time you sat

15:33

down to write or following it rather? Like

15:37

49%, 51%. There

15:41

were certain scenes or moments that

15:43

I knew were coming and

15:47

then writing I'd be like, oh,

15:50

yeah. I'd write a sentence way up

15:52

ahead in the pages document about, oh,

15:55

at some point that's going to have, that's going to need to happen.

15:57

But I would not know if it was. 10

16:01

pages or 200 pages away. So

16:06

on any given day, like I have a sense of

16:08

where today, where the story goes today, but

16:11

then I would find myself endlessly like,

16:14

oh, I did not see that coming. Well, that was,

16:16

and then it's off on a whole thing.

16:19

And suddenly what was two

16:21

pages is 30. So

16:24

it had, like, it was like a

16:26

slow motion favorite Netflix

16:29

series where

16:31

you hit that play button on episode four, and

16:33

you're like, I cannot wait to see where this

16:36

picks up. But you're

16:38

also creating where it

16:40

picks up and there's like a millisecond

16:42

delay between them. That's

16:45

why it is weirdly enough, like there's

16:47

a, which was a

16:49

larger thing happening for me, dissolution of the

16:51

ego, because you move

16:53

past like claiming credit. You

16:56

lose like even that very clear, I

16:59

am making this. What do you think of what I made? It's

17:02

like in service

17:04

of something that's like, almost

17:07

like, hey, I want to come through.

17:11

Can you just let me come through here? You

17:13

know what I mean? But that also affected right away.

17:15

I was like, well, this is, I'm

17:20

mystified by this and what it's doing

17:23

to me and why I find it so

17:25

captivating. Oh, well then

17:27

that would be a completely, like talking to you about it now. And

17:30

I keep doing interviews of with,

17:35

I guess, Robcast people, by the

17:37

way, Robcast people, info at robbelle.com, blogs,

17:40

YouTube channels, but even what traditionally

17:42

would have been the air quotes

17:45

promoting marketing right

17:47

away, I was like, wait, if this ever did come out, those

17:50

aren't the words, because this is

17:52

the first thing I've made that's, like

17:55

I would love to see what people saw in it, almost

17:58

like some other person. The

18:00

way that it I can't even explain

18:02

it the way that it was so

18:04

not I'm gonna make something great it was like

18:07

a 10

18:10

I keep using tender and innocent sort of

18:12

story that oh and

18:14

you you You read

18:16

the story, too You know

18:18

what I mean? Oh, yeah, like uh, let's talk. What

18:20

did you? How did what

18:22

did you think how did what it do to you? Yeah,

18:26

yeah, so it's almost what? It's

18:29

almost the title of the book, right? It's Someone

18:32

asking you that question. Yeah, I'm

18:34

gonna how do they know right and then

18:36

having that shared experience right? Right, right, man

18:39

So all right. Well, that makes me think about Let's

18:42

get into the weeds a little bit with the book. Okay? But

18:46

should we keep I mean spoiler free or what do you think? No,

18:48

you I if somebody's telling you a

18:50

story about a name You've never heard on a

18:52

planet involving spaceship. Okay, you're later gonna be like,

18:55

oh you gave it away Very

18:59

very fair. So, okay. So when he

19:05

So the narrator of the story heen breaks

19:07

his jaw And

19:10

see coming by the way, I was that

19:12

I genuinely did not see coming He

19:15

arrives at the house The

19:17

crowd is all around borns

19:20

and people are everybody's like

19:23

Overwhelmed with gratitude and

19:26

relief and just as he

19:28

opens his mouth He

19:30

trips and falls and breaks his

19:32

jaw and can't speak I was like and then he can't

19:34

he bites off a piece of his tongue I just

19:37

think they remember stopping taking my hands off the

19:39

keyboard and be like Obviously,

19:42

that's what happens because it just happened

19:44

on the page in front of me

19:46

But did I just render my main

19:49

character the narrator? unable

19:51

to speak I remember

19:53

thinking like now I'm we're going to need

19:56

to write him as The

19:59

main character and he's interactive interacting with other characters, but

20:01

he's gonna be narrating for

20:03

you what he's thinking. He's gonna have to use some

20:05

sort of make up, some sort of sign language. It just,

20:08

that was the kind of example of, I

20:11

knew he'd get back safely

20:15

with the person that he was with. But

20:18

like, that's the kind of thing where you all

20:20

of a sudden like have created like

20:23

a new, not even a challenge, just

20:25

so absurd, but like, oh

20:27

yeah, okay, I guess that's what we're doing. So

20:29

when you, when that caught

20:31

you by surprise, and then his

20:33

first words are the perfect words

20:36

to say. Like as I'm reading

20:38

that line, I'm like, please say those words.

20:40

This will be perfect. No way, you saw

20:42

that coming? Yeah, it was weird. You knew.

20:45

Yes. Born's kids are all

20:47

placing bets and they're all

20:49

gathered around him like, oh, this can be good. You

20:52

knew. Oh, that's so awesome. Because it felt

20:55

like, so Diltud, another normal name that we're

20:57

talking about today. So Diltud,

21:00

you could tell he had his claws enough

21:03

into Heen at that point that

21:06

it was like the, there

21:08

had been some kind of trans... Like a spell

21:10

or something. Yeah, it's like, you know, like the

21:12

Diltudness had rubbed off onto Heen. So, all right,

21:14

so let's talk about what he said. So he

21:16

says, Piddle, Piddle, Piddle. Yeah.

21:20

Where's Piddle, Piddle, Piddle from? That's

21:23

such a huge part of the book. Yeah.

21:25

And it can mean a lot of different things in

21:28

different spots in the book. Good.

21:31

Good. Yeah. I've literally gotten

21:33

letters from people signing their

21:36

email, Piddle, Piddle, Piddle. And I've had people

21:39

sending me emails that begin, Rob,

21:41

Piddle, Piddle, Piddle. Was

21:44

that from someone? Yeah.

21:47

And I don't... Yeah. Yeah.

21:51

I've thought

21:53

about this

21:56

a fair bit recently because... talking

22:00

about Like

22:03

the power of a story is everybody sees

22:08

Like you find yourself in it So

22:11

like I Don't

22:13

think it I don't I don't think

22:15

it would be good to tell where What

22:19

was happening in my life? what

22:21

I probably couldn't get through it without

22:23

being choked up, but I Like

22:25

it better to just be whatever it means and not

22:27

be like oh, that's where that because

22:29

the event was so specific You know what I

22:32

mean? I see why I see why I Didn't

22:36

used to understand why certain people

22:38

I adored writers and songwriters Would

22:42

go super opaque When

22:45

it came to where stuff came

22:47

from You

22:50

know what I mean I was always like no just

22:53

give me the background The story,

22:56

but I see why there's like us why

22:58

I didn't used to understand

23:00

that like yeah You're

23:02

good. You don't need to know where that hmm. Do

23:05

you know I mean where that came from or what it

23:07

means or It's already

23:09

doing something to you. It's

23:12

not what it's about. Yeah where it's

23:14

from yeah, yeah Yeah,

23:17

yeah that that's that some of the power

23:19

of it is Because

23:22

I it has done

23:24

something to me and I don't

23:27

need your space and time history about how it

23:29

came to you, and why you put it in

23:31

there That might

23:34

change It's almost like something going

23:36

mm-hmm. This is what it means Hmm

23:38

you know I mean yeah like imagine

23:40

of Bob Dylan was like okay the

23:42

watchtower Is

23:45

on Jones Boulevard It's

23:48

you know I mean yeah, or the

23:51

slow train that was coming It

23:53

was a Thursday. I was in Birmingham. Yeah,

23:55

you know I mean we don't be like

23:57

that now. You're good. You stop now That,

24:01

yeah. Man, piddle,

24:03

piddle, piddle. I know, I know. And

24:07

then when he says it to the kids, it's

24:09

the one thing he says to the kids. And somehow those

24:12

ice, they're like high school kids in

24:15

that ravine, he holds

24:17

up the bread and says, piddle, piddle, piddle. And then all

24:19

the kids throughout,

24:22

around the ravine start saying it like it's

24:24

a battle cry. Or a

24:26

war chant. And actually

24:28

that was really helpful to me and like

24:34

when we're younger, we

24:36

love the secret codes.

24:39

The language is that the elders

24:41

don't speak. It's like

24:43

what bonds us and connects us. It's

24:47

like, that's part of, you

24:50

know what I mean? Like the kids

24:52

immediately get it. It's like, it's just

24:54

nonsense. And yet they treat it like,

24:56

yeah, mm-hmm. We're down with it.

24:58

We see you, Dean. Man, you

25:00

know what I mean? Yeah, that

25:02

scene in particular you're talking about

25:05

reminds me of BJ Novak's

25:07

children's book. Are you familiar with that? No,

25:09

I've heard of it. The book with no

25:11

pictures. And it's just, I mean, it's all

25:13

words, but just crazy words. And of course

25:16

kids go nuts for it. Kids go nuts. Because

25:18

it shouldn't be said. Oh,

25:21

that's really interesting. I was in that ravine

25:23

for about four, no, that's three,

25:26

it was about four days. That

25:28

scene. In the ravine. When Nune does

25:30

that bread is magic speech. I

25:33

knew she would do a, I

25:36

like was just there, like describing

25:40

what she was doing, not really

25:43

knowing like the speech that she

25:45

gives. I was like

25:49

listening to the speech as she gave it. Man,

25:52

that's cool. Is that a fascinating? Yeah. I

25:55

find it utterly fascinating. And I was completely

25:57

enthralled with what she was doing, like with

25:59

pulling the. kids up on stage and all

26:02

that was like happening. It's

26:04

like you could hit pause, you could hit rewind,

26:06

hit fast forward like

26:10

and then they were like different like the like he

26:12

is watching it going what what is how what

26:15

is she doing and the kids are like

26:17

loving it and she's in like utter command

26:19

like all that is was just I do

26:21

remember that week feeling

26:24

like it like the scene was just huge

26:27

in my mind and heart.

26:29

It's like so so incredibly

26:31

delightful. Yeah it comes through in

26:34

the writing I mean that's

26:36

where you can tell like I was saying earlier

26:38

it's that had to be fun to write. Yeah

26:40

yeah yeah. And that's

26:43

my favorite part about writing I was thinking of this

26:45

as you were explaining that is sometimes

26:49

I'll write for you know whatever a couple hours and

26:51

you come out and you almost want to tell someone

26:53

like well listen what happened yeah like oh I can't

26:55

believe yeah this happened yeah or that I would even

26:58

write about that today yeah that's

27:00

fun. So okay

27:03

I need to talk to you about a part of the book that gave

27:05

me a cold sweat when I was listening

27:08

to it. It was

27:10

so when Nune comes

27:12

to Fertis yeah

27:14

and she's talking

27:16

to Heen on a hill and

27:18

he learns about graining mm-hmm the

27:22

scene really is set around the idea

27:25

of Heen has

27:27

no outs this thing is

27:29

happening. Yeah yeah

27:31

yeah yeah right yeah it's it's

27:34

very cold and dark very fast

27:36

it's like settling in it's like

27:38

hitting him he's

27:40

completely oblivious and

27:42

it's beginning to dawn on him what

27:44

he's been oblivious to and she's not

27:46

giving him any there's

27:49

nothing soft she

27:51

it's like like

27:54

like almost unbearable at some level yeah

27:56

that's awful see cool okay brutal well let's

27:59

talk about that. I'm

28:02

at my house in Nashville reading that, like

28:04

sweating like, oh, God, there's no else. Yeah.

28:08

So let's talk about that. So obviously,

28:10

you know, it's brutal when you're writing it. Do

28:13

you, I mean, what are, did you have

28:15

a moment in mind of a time

28:17

when you just felt, oh, I

28:20

got caught. Like, so for me personally, I

28:22

feel like I can always talk my way out of stuff. I

28:27

can always explain or do

28:29

something to where even

28:32

if I was to walk out into

28:34

Ohio tonight and someone would try to mug me, I

28:36

would think that I could talk myself out of it.

28:40

I could be like, look, okay, yes, I know you

28:42

want this wallet. Where

28:45

are you from? You know, or whatever. And just talk

28:47

to the person and just, I don't know. I love

28:49

that you've thought about this. I think I could. Yes.

28:52

But there has been those times where you just can't

28:55

and you're caught. And I mean, I

28:57

wrote to you my email. I was in the first time

28:59

I could think of this in my life was in

29:01

fourth grade. And

29:04

I went to a K through 12 Christian

29:06

school. So weekly Bible verses.

29:09

And I, up to this point, goody two shoes,

29:13

every teacher's, you know, my goal was to be

29:15

loved by all the teachers. And

29:18

I was succeeding at that goal up until this point.

29:21

And I remember it was, it

29:23

was the kind of thing where you had to tack on

29:25

a verse each week and it was getting really long. And

29:28

I was like, Hey, if I write it

29:30

on this little note card and put it down

29:32

here in my lap, Oh,

29:35

like just a proper cheat. Oh, totally.

29:37

Yeah. Got it. Oh,

29:40

I was like, approach. Exactly.

29:42

I was like, no one's thought of this. I'll

29:45

just write this down beforehand and

29:48

then, you know, transcribe it. So teacher walked

29:50

by, saw, saw

29:52

that and

29:55

that cold sweat feeling I had as

29:57

a 33 year old, you know,

29:59

recently. Reading your book at this in

30:01

the scene where I was like can't talk my way

30:03

out of this one So yeah,

30:06

I don't know. Can you can you talk about a time? Where

30:10

you you felt that I've got

30:12

no outs Yeah,

30:16

I Yeah,

30:20

yeah, yeah, yeah, I I

30:24

Have a lot. I've got lots of them Lots

30:27

of them I think there's a weird sort

30:29

of amalgamation of that experience

30:32

of Powerlessness

30:36

Even though you always have your own autonomy and power

30:40

still can be overwhelmed with like my

30:43

mind has completely melted down about

30:45

how I Would

30:50

make my way out of

30:52

this Yeah, yeah,

30:54

yeah, I'm I can't like

30:58

it's really I was

31:00

struck Partway

31:03

through writing the book when I realized Nothing

31:08

in the book was based

31:11

on a thing that I'd

31:13

experienced that if I or or no

31:15

characters were like, oh that's so and

31:17

that was influenced by so-and-so um

31:21

It all felt 1,000% Entirely

31:24

fresh and original to me like

31:26

I don't know what that scene I can't think of

31:28

one thing that that that scene That

31:32

is that scene is referencing But

31:34

then Kristen read an early draft and was like, yeah, it's kind

31:36

of hard for me should I cuz I I Can

31:39

see where you got all the stuff But

31:41

to write it if I'm in a

31:43

thought of anybody or any like

31:45

oh, I want to stick this thing that happened to

31:47

me It's like the Valve

31:49

or the faucet just immediately turned off So

31:53

like that feeling he's having I can't

31:56

think of One specific

31:58

experience. It's referenced I

32:01

can go back and find the feeling

32:03

and then go oh, yeah Yeah, but there's

32:05

like a thousand times. I

32:07

was like, how did I get here? What

32:10

I don't say to that like

32:13

right I Do I just

32:16

walk out of the room? because

32:18

I'm out about like Yeah,

32:20

it's very interesting to me how it it

32:24

also ideas like it wasn't like who

32:27

I have the ideas for my next book Let's

32:29

put it into a story You

32:32

know mean like oh, let's like use

32:34

a story as a

32:37

vehicle to like communicate truths That's

32:40

like gross almost like violating

32:42

to me in this

32:44

this only worked with what

32:47

happens next Oh

32:50

So-and-so shows up. What are they wearing? What

32:52

they say? How does how does so-and-so respond? Is

32:55

that interesting how that it's you wouldn't think that

32:58

but then I'd look and then I'd read back over

33:00

50 pages and be like Oh, there's like a whole

33:02

thing on economics there. Oh, there's a whole thing on

33:06

Pot like governance there or there's a whole architecture.

33:08

There's a whole thing on grief and you know

33:11

what I mean I would look back on it

33:13

and See

33:16

all these things happening But

33:18

going but going forward in the creation of it

33:21

if I tried to like previous Rob Bell

33:24

What am I trying to say? What am I

33:26

trying to explain? It all

33:28

went completely dead. It was literally like the death

33:30

of What I've been doing for

33:32

like 30 years at that point.

33:35

None of the old Rob Bell's just like here's what I

33:37

want to say Here's I'm gonna explain it. Here's some stories

33:39

to help you gone I'm

33:41

telling you was super like

33:44

disorienting. But if it was like Okay,

33:47

we're in the ravine What

33:49

does she say? What does he say? What

33:52

is this teacher? Do you see what I mean? Yeah,

33:56

I mean Do

33:58

you ever get there get to that point? without

34:00

doing it the other way. I wonder.

34:04

I mean perhaps that's why stories have...well

34:08

think about when you go to a movie

34:12

or you watch a movie and it's clear what the point is

34:15

you eye roll so fast. You're

34:18

like, ugh please. You know

34:20

what I mean? We actually are like slightly offended.

34:23

We're repulsed when it's like, oh we said it was

34:25

so on the nose. Oh

34:27

it was so like, oh please. Yeah be nice to

34:29

people who aren't like you. We need

34:31

to save the earth. Even good things that we're passionate

34:33

about. We're like, whatever. It's

34:36

like we have to...it's like

34:38

an absolute surrender of this...almost

34:42

like the ego that wants you to get what you get out

34:44

of it. Do

34:47

you know what I

34:49

mean? That's why

34:51

religious art has such

34:53

a long track record of absolute crap. Like

34:56

just utter devastatingly bad

34:59

crap. Because people

35:01

don't even say we're using music

35:03

for or we're using

35:05

filmmaking too. That's

35:08

why often those

35:10

works are

35:12

so shockingly

35:16

terrible. Because you

35:18

don't use these things for that. They're

35:20

stories. You tell

35:22

them. Songs. You sing them.

35:26

They aren't like tools. You

35:29

know what I mean? It's

35:31

like that stuff's coming through the front door. And

35:34

we just... If

35:38

it's going to move us, we have to meet

35:40

it on

35:42

our own terms. And

35:44

somebody who's already said, this is

35:46

what this will be or mean to you. It's

35:50

almost like a sacred trust between...

35:54

Like I imagine in the book you're writing. Can

35:57

I tell them what's about? Sure.

36:00

Because I remember the first time I heard you talk about it,

36:02

I was like, that's just so brilliant. There

36:04

are municipal golf courses and there are private golf courses.

36:06

Am I getting this right? Pretty

36:09

close. So there's, well,

36:11

here's the best way to describe it. There's two types of

36:13

golf courses in America

36:15

or in the world, places

36:18

where anyone can play and places where not

36:21

anyone can play. And

36:23

generally that has a very strong financial

36:25

economic dimension to it. Big time. But

36:27

amongst the ones where people can

36:30

play, there's a

36:32

big class system there. There's really fancy

36:34

resorts, hundreds of dollars

36:36

per round, or there's municipal's, which

36:38

are city owned, typically

36:41

like $20, like your one

36:43

down here, down the street. Yeah. One

36:45

of my favorites from the trip is,

36:48

I don't know, less than 30, probably anyone

36:50

can go. So you set out

36:53

to go to those munis and

36:56

get paired up with whoever,

36:59

complete strangers. So you

37:02

decided to do this in all 50 states.

37:05

Go to a public, accessible

37:07

to anybody municipal course,

37:10

which I assume aren't as lush and

37:14

beautiful or whatever, and

37:17

get paired up with random golf

37:19

humans. And

37:21

then you do that in each state, and

37:24

now you're writing a book about what you experienced.

37:27

That's right. Yeah. So pretty normal way

37:29

to spend your year, you know, and

37:32

lived in that spurner van, lived in the van. So

37:36

what's interesting about your question to me is

37:41

about your, about, about

37:44

this book, your book is

37:47

as you tell us these stories

37:50

about who you encountered and what

37:52

happened, there's the

37:54

delicate art of just letting us meet the people.

37:59

And if you It's

38:02

almost like you just put us

38:05

there on the green and and

38:07

introduce us to who you met. It's

38:10

almost like there's this deaf

38:13

touch of trusting that

38:16

we'll have our own experience with the people just like you

38:18

did. You

38:20

nailed it. So then you so

38:22

then it's almost like you tell us

38:24

enough about them that we can hopefully

38:26

in some way meet them

38:28

like you did and

38:31

your experience with them is very meaningful

38:33

to us but then there's some art

38:38

to create enough space where

38:40

we can see whatever we

38:42

see in them. So

38:45

your book is like has so it's almost like

38:47

you create these what

38:49

are they they're like spiritual they're

38:51

like space sacred space in the paid

38:53

in in among the words for

38:57

us to have our own

39:00

astonishment angst love

39:04

fresh whatever it is. Yeah

39:07

so that makes total sense because it's the times

39:09

where I'm writing I get stuck it's when I'm

39:11

being really heavy-handed with yeah

39:13

right right here's what this person's story now

39:15

how does that make you feel audience you

39:17

know. I can

39:20

only imagine you met people who were because

39:22

the personal is a political you met people

39:24

who were the deficiencies of

39:26

this current system so

39:28

we like this

39:31

is that's but if you just tell

39:33

us we'll go oh if

39:35

you tell it well we'll get

39:37

it right and

39:40

yeah and you just learn when you're with

39:42

these people for because in these rounds of golf for like four

39:44

hours and when

39:46

you're with someone for four hours and you can't

39:48

really be on your phone and because it's really

39:51

rude and it's this weird space now yeah they

39:53

used to be really common that yeah you don't

39:55

really have much anymore anyway you

39:58

just see that people aren't just one thing. Oh,

40:00

this guy that's wearing a bright

40:02

red hat that is not something that I want to be

40:04

a part of, he's not just

40:06

that. If I walk by him on the

40:08

sidewalk, he's just that thing. But

40:10

when I spend four hours with him, he's not just

40:12

that thing. His aches and pains

40:15

and grandkids and whatever,

40:18

he's a way more of a human than

40:21

just a voter. Correct.

40:23

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's an

40:26

interesting intimacy to that. So

40:31

I've seen some of the people and talked to

40:33

some of the people that I played with, because

40:35

this was 2022 when I did the trip. And

40:38

so this guy actually in LA I texted

40:40

today, who one of

40:42

my favorite people from the trip. And

40:44

when I meet up with these people, it's as if

40:46

we've been friends forever. Wait, wait, wait, wait. When you

40:48

text us, somebody, do you say, I'm

40:51

the guy who golfed with a

40:53

year or a year and a half ago. And

40:56

by the way, I'm writing a book about

40:59

that experience, because that was actually part of a trip and

41:02

you're so far in the book. You

41:05

telling that? So I texted this guy

41:07

here, I'll

41:10

just read you the first line. I said, Gene, it's

41:12

your long lost golf nomad, Jeremy. And

41:15

then just have a normal sex conversation. But that was, I

41:17

mean, that's a big trick with what I was doing is

41:20

when I meet these people, early

41:22

in my trip, I learned that when

41:24

they, because they'd be like, hey, what are you doing?

41:26

You know, like, where do you live? And

41:28

you just do the typical pleasantries early on.

41:30

And early in the trip, I would say,

41:33

oh, hey, I'm working on this book.

41:35

It's about the people that I randomly paired up with. And

41:38

what they would hear is, hey, I'm working on

41:40

this book and guess what? It's about you.

41:43

Oh, right, right, right. So on the,

41:47

I learned just to tell them, I'm working

41:49

on a book about municipal golf courses, and

41:52

then they'd be themselves. So they weren't guarded and

41:54

they weren't doing all that, which I saw that in your

41:56

book too, is

41:58

the difference Shanna. someone's guard

42:00

is down and

42:03

or when they're trying to put on for

42:05

someone else. Well

42:07

how is that? Well so

42:10

so when when I did

42:12

not see that coming so when he

42:16

is doing it

42:18

has this balance between having

42:20

this relationship with noon yeah I was gonna

42:22

say noon yay it's not noon yay but

42:25

that's how you know when you read something and you

42:27

just spelled one way and pronounce another you just decide

42:29

yeah anyway so when he's out when he's when

42:32

he's hiding who she is to the people he works

42:34

with in the bakery all right right when he's like

42:36

oh my god we're gonna we're gonna pretend like we're

42:38

a thing they're all yeah I think we're a thing

42:40

yes you're like a trained assassin who's come to like

42:43

but we're gonna be you can tell he's

42:45

just so mad but also weirdly kind of

42:47

like he

42:50

kind of digs her but he can't he can't yeah

42:53

he's such a wreck I

42:55

love that man so let's can

42:58

we go back to the standing at a distance thing yeah

43:00

yeah so that's through a

43:02

lot of the book and that's what you

43:06

know it's it's I

43:08

think in the subtitle you say it's a book

43:10

about grief right love lost and bread

43:12

hmm all right

43:15

well I'll say lost then so

43:17

yeah yeah so the gosh there's

43:21

so much to talk about there but it's

43:24

a theme so

43:26

it's standing at a distance it's what it's

43:28

what got heen his his

43:31

job yeah right yeah

43:33

it's what makes him really good at his

43:35

job is that he's able to stand at

43:37

a distance yeah it's what made you good

43:39

at what you do

43:41

as far as I mean did you

43:43

feel like you were saying earlier at the dinner

43:46

table even when you were really young and you're

43:48

observing all these things about how these people move

43:50

and operate did

43:53

you feel I don't

43:55

know I just said my email to you

43:57

I'll just read what I said I said an interviewer should

43:59

ask you when you stood at a

44:01

distance? Or

44:04

did you have phases of your life where you stood at

44:06

a distance and had that... Oh yeah,

44:08

yeah. I'm just observing. Yeah, well at some level... I

44:12

can see now... Well first off, I thought

44:15

I... When the book began to take shape...

44:20

I was like,

44:22

oh, he's numb. And he's

44:26

beginning to feel. He's been standing at a distance from his life and

44:28

he's beginning to feel how... What

44:33

would it be like for

44:35

the story to be big and wide

44:37

and thick and broad enough

44:39

that you could begin... It was

44:42

like a feeling as much as a plot. And as he comes to

44:46

life, what would that be like for

44:48

the reader? And then when they were discussing

44:50

stuff in the bakery and

44:53

normally he keeps... He's

44:56

like, I would never take part in a conversation like this.

44:58

I would just watch this conversation. Like

45:00

when Bournes is like, has Philippe died yet? He's

45:04

like, no, I just saw him the other day, but Bournes

45:06

is talking about a very different kind of death. And

45:09

then he's like, God, I would never have... Their

45:13

loves and unrequited love, all the things that

45:15

are happening with people in the bakery and

45:17

he's getting sucked into it and

45:20

he's realizing I'm very

45:22

good at my job because I'm

45:24

very numb and I stand at a distance and he's realizing

45:27

that's not a good thing. That

45:29

to me was just that dynamic and

45:31

then watching him and he's telling you

45:33

the reader about like, yeah,

45:36

I noticed, but I don't see.

45:39

And then when Nune shows up

45:41

and she's like, you know,

45:43

I did all... I did all my research on you and you're like

45:45

one of the best series fives in the universe. Like you're great. But

45:48

my God, you miss so

45:50

much. And like Bobby Freelance, who

45:52

he's always been mystified by and in like ten minutes she's like, Bobby,

45:54

I see who you are. And

45:56

he's like, what the... I just love the

45:59

commercial. complete disorientation where he's

46:01

like, has such great pride, like he

46:03

says, like, I think I'm one of the best people in

46:05

the universe at my job. And then she comes and it's

46:07

just like, it is

46:09

shocking how

46:12

little you. Yeah, yeah.

46:15

But I mean, the, the

46:17

question behind your question, which

46:19

I'm still exploring. Like

46:22

when I, like, when

46:25

I, for years

46:27

as like a spiritual teacher before that,

46:29

like, like as a pastor, everybody

46:33

else has the feels. Hmm.

46:36

Everybody else is grieving. You come to the funeral.

46:38

Everybody else is celebrating. You do the wedding. Everybody

46:41

else is a wreck. You're like

46:43

strong. I remember

46:46

one time, this is

46:48

so many Rob's ago, in

46:50

a sermon, like off

46:53

handed, like seven seconds said something like

46:55

it has a really difficult week on

46:59

my way from one, saying one thing to saying

47:01

some other thing. And afterwards,

47:03

literally there was like a line of people

47:05

were like, did you okay? That's

47:08

all they heard. And

47:10

I, at the time, when I was in my early thirties,

47:12

like, oh,

47:15

everybody like, yeah, we love it when you're

47:17

humble and vulnerable. And when you tell stories

47:19

about your life, because you're just like us

47:23

to a point and

47:26

then the job, you know

47:28

what I mean? Yeah. Like to appoint you

47:30

like that, but, but

47:32

not really. So, so

47:36

there are a number of reasons why I took to that

47:38

sort of work that weren't that I,

47:40

I, it was all love and

47:42

hopefully, yeah, just, it was all, I

47:45

saw it like as an act of service, but I

47:47

can also see in there all sorts of how

47:49

that the very nature of that work is you, everybody

47:53

else. That's why, that's why I always

47:55

talk about when we moved to Ohio or the

47:57

past couple of years becoming a civilian. You

48:00

know what I mean? Oh yeah. Well,

48:03

so... Just being a wreck and not having to have

48:05

a story about how... And then here's how I've gotten...

48:07

Here's how I'm less of a wreck. Just

48:09

being a... That's

48:12

been like a new... That's been,

48:14

honestly, genuinely been new for

48:16

me. Is that something

48:20

you can go back and forth with

48:22

throughout your life? Or do you think there's a switch

48:24

that flips where you go from observing to feeling? Well,

48:26

just think about... I'm trying to think of an example.

48:29

Well, think of an emergency room. Like...

48:34

The doctors and nurses. Right

48:37

now, we don't care what kind of day you had. You

48:40

know what I mean? Like ambulance

48:43

driver. Just get

48:45

the person to the

48:47

hospital. So there's lots of ways in which

48:51

there's a thing you're doing for people. You

48:53

know what I mean? So you just do that. Like

48:58

in an act of service, this

49:00

isn't the place where you work out your stuff. There's

49:04

a whole bunch of emotions these days. This isn't the time

49:06

and place to do that. Stay home. Take

49:08

a day off. Yeah, okay. So that

49:10

was all done. That's

49:15

all love and service. It's just that sometimes

49:17

you do something for a long time. And

49:21

then you're like, that was great. What a

49:23

great chapter. Now let's do some

49:25

other stuff. And you discover all these things that are sitting in there.

49:29

I don't think I ever gave a teaching

49:31

about disappointment. Like

49:35

all those endless little disappointments that accumulate.

49:40

I have discovered layers

49:43

and layers of disappointment that

49:46

I never knew I was carrying around about how I

49:48

wished my life went a different way. I

49:50

would have been like, hey, do you ever wish your life went

49:52

a different way? Yeah, that kind of sucks. You

49:55

know what I mean? No, the

49:58

teacher says... Yeah,

50:01

lots of stuff can really disappoint and here are six

50:03

ways to You

50:06

know, I mean, yeah. Yeah, it's not it's not

50:08

it's the gift you're giving is through some ways

50:10

to understand and think about and handle you disappointment,

50:12

but Then

50:15

later at least for me and it's like yeah,

50:18

we're civilian So,

50:23

all right, well, let's get to the last two

50:25

biggies, okay because That

50:28

made me think of Another

50:30

theme of the book which is ungrieved

50:32

grief and its ripple effects. Yeah,

50:35

so That

50:40

So for me so we

50:42

had one of our two dogs pass and

50:45

about like two months ago in December and It

50:49

hit really hard because I So

50:53

I lost one of my best friends two years prior and

50:57

that's me on my age early 30s and freak

51:00

illness Kind of everyone by surprise.

51:02

I Didn't

51:05

realize I was carrying that around until this

51:07

dog. Yeah, yeah past and it was like

51:09

both together and I

51:12

thought well the right the ripple effects are

51:15

huge there and it's like, you know, we

51:17

all have it What we do with that really matters that

51:19

that's why I want to hear about Tell

51:22

us about ungrieved grief Yeah,

51:25

how One

51:27

loss Almost like

51:30

opens a valve and a number of

51:32

other losses come Flowing

51:34

through well, I guess I guess

51:36

what I found myself doing the first time

51:38

with my buddy was Numbing

51:44

kind of numbing yourself to it, right? Yeah

51:46

and getting into that observer role and yeah,

51:48

you know, I mean I spoke at his funeral But

51:51

even doing that in my

51:53

head. I was like worried about the reaction of

51:55

the crowd Unless about

51:58

honoring my friend. I was like Oh,

52:00

hopefully this beautiful thing I wrote works out well because

52:02

I would just didn't realize

52:05

how far I had removed myself from

52:08

the front lines of that whereas

52:11

When our you know when our dog died it

52:14

was also kind of a sudden thing and really traumatic,

52:16

but It

52:18

hit me I was like oh I've

52:21

been standing at a distance And

52:24

I've been really yeah Yeah,

52:26

yeah, and that's the The

52:29

thing about grief is it shows

52:32

up on its own timetable so

52:37

Generally doesn't give much warning Sometimes

52:41

it's a song Or

52:43

like an article of clothing. It's just

52:45

some random can feel very

52:47

random like what all of a sudden and

52:50

it doesn't The

52:52

the mind is over in the corner having a smoke.

52:55

It doesn't get me Like I'm out

52:57

on this one. I have no idea so You

53:02

it's an intelligence But

53:04

of a very different kind in the kind you can

53:06

like mental eyes or analyze It's

53:08

like a deeper intelligence that is

53:11

asking to allow something to pass through

53:14

So it's like a fully a full body sort

53:16

of thing even think about a eulogy like you're

53:18

saying You crack you're a writer

53:20

and you crafted a eulogy you did

53:22

it to honor your friend It

53:25

had elements of performance you wanted it to go well

53:28

it was your Words

53:31

about your friend's passing, but

53:33

it was also offered in

53:35

service for

53:37

the larger group That

53:39

was mourning his passing so there's

53:43

like All that's

53:45

very different than Allowing

53:48

the loss To

53:53

be given its expression in

53:55

you you know I mean Yeah,

53:59

it's interesting seen when famous people die

54:01

and there are shrines and

54:03

candles and flowers and sometimes the

54:06

reaction is like whoa that is like a seriously

54:10

like has a certain force to it the reaction and

54:14

you're like why I mean yeah

54:16

I love their movies too but I

54:21

wonder what why it's so strong because

54:23

a lot of people I didn't never

54:25

met that they had no personal relationship with the

54:27

person but it actually

54:29

is very

54:33

reasonable at some level that

54:35

person and their passing gave people

54:40

it's like it pulled up it's like a magnet it

54:43

pulled up all those shards of

54:45

grief from other losses

54:50

yeah and sometimes it's just stuff we never said out

54:52

loud I

54:56

mean think about how how the

54:59

mind sensors it's

55:01

like I was so good at

55:03

like yeah no

55:05

don't say that that won't sound just and

55:08

then we just say stuff out loud like

55:10

I was with the other day out of nowhere I

55:14

said too violet we were

55:16

tired my daughter we were in the car and I was like I

55:19

miss my dad today hmm and

55:23

I hadn't had any I I had no recollection

55:25

of missing him over the previous I

55:28

don't know days or weeks but then

55:30

it was a very acute thing

55:33

and saying it out loud would

55:36

I could feel like it like a like it passed

55:39

that whatever it was

55:41

I'm waves episodes

55:45

tones you know what they

55:47

are mm-hmm so in

55:50

your book notice lots of people like I've heard

55:52

lots of people talk about one

55:55

loss somehow

55:58

connected them to another loss But

56:01

they all relate to each other. It's

56:04

like, the one loss helps us discover

56:07

what perhaps

56:09

is still present in us about a

56:11

previous loss. Yeah,

56:14

it's like they're all related in some way. So

56:19

in your book, Hien is carrying

56:22

the loss of... Well,

56:25

his mother doesn't die, right? He

56:27

lost her from like an emotional... Yeah, yeah, yeah. ...

56:31

standpoint, lost her essence. So

56:35

he's carrying that around. That makes him a really good

56:37

observer, right? Because he's detached

56:40

himself from... Oh, interesting.

56:42

Did grief move him that? Is that what

56:44

you're thinking with that? Did grief move him

56:46

away to where he's observing the world and

56:48

not actually interacting? I don't know. It

56:50

doesn't have skin in the game. Yeah, it's

56:52

like everything that happened to him. It's

56:55

like by the time he gets on that spaceship, he

56:59

doesn't... All everything.

57:02

It's all built up. It's

57:04

just a jumbled, garbled... Yeah.

57:07

... hairball in him. Yeah.

57:11

Her, the other her, Nord, the

57:13

Yags, all of it. It's like,

57:17

which is which or what feeling is what event?

57:19

Who knows? Because

57:22

when he finds out that Nunez

57:25

there to eliminate Diltud, who...

57:31

Of course, anyone reading the book, that's a favorite

57:33

character, just so you know. So

57:37

when you learn that as a reader, too, you're like, oh my God, no.

57:39

So that's where, to me,

57:41

that's awesome. That's where it felt

57:44

like the... You know we did a... There's

57:48

a store on my site where you can get an I love

57:50

Diltud tote bag and

57:52

a piddle, piddle, piddle mug. So

57:55

good. But it made me

57:57

think about it. How many people were like, I

57:59

love Diltud. Diltud. Yes.

58:02

Yes. Well, do a side note.

58:04

You understand you are a lot of

58:06

people's Diltud. Do you understand this?

58:08

No. Okay. Hold on.

58:10

Hold on. Let me, let me, let me, let me show

58:13

you that the two plus two equals four here. You

58:16

ready? All right. Say Diltud.

58:19

Diltud. Say Rob Bell. Rob

58:23

Bell. Do people, you said

58:25

people say Diltud's name, both

58:28

names when they talk to him. No way. I

58:31

feel like people do that with you. I would guess. Yes, they

58:34

do. You're Rob Bell and not just Rob? Yeah.

58:37

So. Oh,

58:39

wow. And I

58:41

don't know, maybe podcasts or books

58:43

is where you mysteriously pop in

58:45

and out of people's lives. Oh,

58:47

well, that's something. But I do,

58:49

but I wonder about the, the

58:51

ripple effects of grief. The

58:54

last thing on that is I wonder

58:56

if once he

58:58

has such a strong reaction of finding out

59:01

that that's going to happen to Diltud, is

59:03

it because he's carrying that around from his

59:05

mom? Yeah. Well, let's see. Yeah.

59:07

I do remember when that

59:09

scene started, it's

59:12

like a, it's like a horror that

59:14

he can't even name or locate. It's

59:16

almost like subterranean. It's like those experiences we

59:18

have of dread or the

59:21

abyss or the void. Depression

59:24

can often feel

59:28

like this where whatever, whatever chemical,

59:32

psychological neurological factors are at play.

59:34

There's also something about it that

59:36

taps into something about the flat,

59:40

meaningless, cold expanse

59:44

of the universe. You know what I mean? It has something,

59:46

it's just something and, and, and somebody

59:48

going, well, here's a

59:50

bunch of reasons why it's great to be alive and he

59:52

just focused on it, but actually goes, it just makes you

59:55

like not helpful. Just stop

59:57

talking. You know what I mean? So

1:00:00

and you can't even name what

1:00:03

you can't trace it back. You can't like

1:00:05

some monsters you can follow back to the cave. You're

1:00:08

like, oh yeah, this, this person fills

1:00:10

me with rage. Yeah. Cause they

1:00:12

remind me of, or my shadow. Like that

1:00:14

situation speaks to

1:00:16

something about my, that I'm terrified is

1:00:19

true about me. Good. But other things

1:00:21

like that moment, it's like you can, you can, it's

1:00:23

almost like you can feel him. Oh,

1:00:26

this, this goes

1:00:28

way back and

1:00:31

I haven't begun to pull

1:00:33

that thing apart. You

1:00:36

know, that's like, like sometimes people say, like,

1:00:39

I know this has something to do with my

1:00:41

father or my mother or my divorce or the bankruptcy

1:00:44

or the time my grandpa, like

1:00:46

we sometimes have a sense of

1:00:48

an event. People will say like, I

1:00:51

know there's an event, but there's, it

1:00:53

even goes, that event just yeah.

1:00:56

Yeah. Yeah. I mean,

1:00:58

you think about it, how much literature are, how

1:01:01

much of the connections that the

1:01:04

commerce, the moments that we feel deeply

1:01:06

connected with each other are all about exploring these,

1:01:10

these sorts of things. You know what I mean?

1:01:14

Like, yeah, yeah, it

1:01:16

does. It does seem to really go all the way back to his

1:01:18

mother. That's

1:01:20

also interesting. Now that you say that I hadn't thought about this.

1:01:24

He doesn't have,

1:01:26

yeah, it's so fascinating how often

1:01:28

literature and especially movies are about father issues.

1:01:32

But he's stuff

1:01:35

is like mother seems

1:01:37

to be more in this, in this book,

1:01:39

wink seems to be more about the mother.

1:01:43

Hmm. Yeah. He

1:01:46

has some stuff with his dad, but very

1:01:48

little. I mean, it's the mother. Yeah. And

1:01:51

that fast. He's like that absence and presence. You got another

1:01:53

one. Okay. Let's let's

1:01:55

land the plane. Let's land the plane on more

1:01:57

of an uptick than ungrieved grief.

1:02:00

So I want to talk to

1:02:02

you about Sever10

1:02:05

and learning that people can Sever10. Which

1:02:10

means... Yeah, yeah.

1:02:12

And when Dilpud talks about it, well,

1:02:16

I know, I can't give too much away. It's

1:02:18

so fascinating when he talks about Sever10. He's

1:02:21

trying to... It's almost like he's trying to

1:02:24

piece together the map. But

1:02:26

he's only got a few pieces. So

1:02:29

he's trying to construct it and overall like a taxonomy.

1:02:32

He's trying to figure out how the whole thing fits together and

1:02:34

who does what. But he's

1:02:36

really just sort of conjecture and anecdote.

1:02:41

And he has a little piece of it and she seems to

1:02:43

have a little piece of it. But

1:02:47

yeah, I mean, that may be just a

1:02:50

giant Easter egg I shouldn't say any more about. But

1:02:52

it's also fascinating because how

1:02:55

much do they actually know? And Sever10

1:02:58

is a thing he's heard. It's all just

1:03:00

things people have heard. Right.

1:03:03

Well, let's talk about it this way then. So

1:03:05

this really beautiful line you say is

1:03:07

that when...

1:03:11

Let's just say when you learn you can reclaim your life. Yeah.

1:03:14

Just big picture wise. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:03:16

What's all the ingredients in there? It's

1:03:18

anxiety, joy, fear, angst. Yeah. Excitement.

1:03:22

The line that I love that you said is, which

1:03:25

is on page 543. For

1:03:27

those listening at home, tune into 543. That's

1:03:29

right. Turn

1:03:31

it into Delilah for a moment. But you

1:03:35

say we usually have to be in enough pain or

1:03:37

we usually have to be in enough pain to be

1:03:39

ready for what's next. Yeah.

1:03:42

Man. Yeah. Yeah.

1:03:45

Yeah. Yeah.

1:03:49

And strangely enough, it's dawning on

1:03:51

heen. Like heen hasn't ever even...

1:03:56

It's almost like our

1:03:58

mental structures get so foreign. around

1:04:00

this is how the world works or this is

1:04:02

how my life is or this is the setup

1:04:05

this is who I'm with this is what I do this is how that

1:04:09

the idea of an alternate path

1:04:13

is like so

1:04:15

shocking like I even

1:04:17

just watch people like like well

1:04:21

you could like leave what

1:04:26

you're gonna need mm-hmm like

1:04:29

once you just pay your bill some other way I I

1:04:33

it's so interesting how we will protest

1:04:36

very straightforward truths just

1:04:38

by the sheer way that our brains are like no

1:04:41

this is what I do come on you want to something else right

1:04:45

he's like and when this idea

1:04:47

this ever tank comes up like

1:04:49

wait you could you just

1:04:51

like do something else it's

1:04:54

like hitting him it's so clear and straightforward

1:04:57

and yet it's hitting him like the most

1:04:59

exotic out

1:05:01

there thing ever fascinating

1:05:05

as human beings how we

1:05:07

can become entrenched so quickly

1:05:09

in a particular mode of

1:05:13

whatever where we live who we hang out with what we

1:05:15

do whatever why is that is

1:05:17

that fascinating it's just in

1:05:19

the brain just gets right yeah these yeah that works

1:05:23

and then suddenly we get like the

1:05:25

slight I mean you think about the moments in your life the

1:05:27

slightest well

1:05:30

I could do I could do that differently and

1:05:33

we're just filled with so much

1:05:35

like I like a

1:05:37

euphoria it's like an X it's like ecstasy of

1:05:39

some sort it's like a I

1:05:46

watch that at your today last year over and

1:05:49

over and over yes it's

1:05:52

not you telling someone they can do that they always say themselves

1:05:55

all right you're right this

1:05:58

is not manufactured this is not Even

1:06:01

really suggested often you're just watching someone's

1:06:03

own deep knowing rise

1:06:05

up and speak to them is like

1:06:08

swear the most the most

1:06:10

compelling thing on the planet Like

1:06:13

you just it just raises such fascinating questions about what

1:06:15

a human well You saw that over and part of

1:06:17

the thing two days I'm gonna happens over and over

1:06:19

and over again is you're like wait, what

1:06:21

even is a human? When

1:06:24

all like we're doing is sitting present

1:06:26

with this person and watching them like

1:06:29

almost like re-narrate their

1:06:31

entire life and

1:06:33

we just met them and it It's

1:06:36

not like plainhouse or fantasy. We're like no

1:06:39

this It's not

1:06:41

like and then I got this dream that I want to they're

1:06:43

like actually I was trained in that So I

1:06:46

know how to do that and I think I could put it

1:06:48

with this and we could That's just someone

1:06:50

asked me if I would you know,

1:06:52

I mean then it's actually very granular

1:06:54

and practical. It's very strange Yeah, it's

1:06:56

like everyone at that today myself included

1:06:58

was in enough pain Right.

1:07:01

Oh the angst factor is high enough of

1:07:03

like something is tugging on my sleeve Something

1:07:06

wants to die something wants to be born something wants to end

1:07:09

something wants to begin Something is

1:07:11

asking for some entirely maybe it's

1:07:13

the same exact form You're gonna do the same

1:07:15

job and live in the same place with the

1:07:17

same and yet it's asking for some entirely new

1:07:22

Way of doing it Which

1:07:25

may not even be externally observable there was

1:07:27

a CEO of a company

1:07:29

who We

1:07:33

watched him realize there was an entirely

1:07:35

different way to see his

1:07:38

employees and you

1:07:40

could we you could like see it him

1:07:43

like and You

1:07:45

and then he began almost like just on the

1:07:47

spot riff on how he would

1:07:49

then restructure The experience

1:07:52

for his employees, but it wasn't

1:07:54

a guy going like if I was in

1:07:56

charge if the guy actually in charge You

1:07:58

know maybe he's right and And it

1:08:01

was watching him, oh yeah,

1:08:03

I could do that. I could do that on Tuesdays. I

1:08:05

bet a bunch of employees would find that helpful. And

1:08:08

I could restructure that. Yeah, that would just take like a

1:08:10

half days of work. And it

1:08:12

was like this very grounded, as

1:08:15

my son would say, boots on the ground. We

1:08:17

just watched. I'll never

1:08:20

forget, there's a couple, I mean, there's a number

1:08:22

of them that stand out, but. Yeah. Yeah,

1:08:25

yeah. Yeah, I think

1:08:27

about, it makes me think

1:08:29

about relationships with people.

1:08:33

You can see things

1:08:36

happening where you're like, this is not good.

1:08:39

But you wait until it's in the max amount of pain.

1:08:42

So you finally end, you know, have that

1:08:44

conversation, work, love life, whatever, you know. I

1:08:48

mean, for me right now, it took a

1:08:50

year of being home in my house to be like,

1:08:53

all right, I'm in enough pain. I went back to my

1:08:55

old life accidentally. I

1:08:58

gotta get out of here. Like

1:09:00

old patterns or habits or rain. Then

1:09:02

you got back in the van. I

1:09:05

mean, it was like a week by week thing where

1:09:08

suddenly I was upstairs in the guest room, doing

1:09:10

a YouTube workout video. I was like, oh

1:09:13

my God, I'm back to my

1:09:15

pre van self. I

1:09:17

never thought I'd do that. I started working at the job

1:09:19

that I had left. So

1:09:21

I just left it again. I was in enough pain.

1:09:24

Oh my God, I've become my pre van self. I've

1:09:27

never heard that sentence before. Yeah, yeah,

1:09:29

yeah, yeah. That's it. It's

1:09:31

like you have to just, you keep giving yourself grace. This

1:09:36

is my first trip on this planet. So it's

1:09:38

your first time being Jeremy. My

1:09:40

first time being Jeremy. I'll get the hang of it. Oh

1:09:43

man. So thank you. Thank

1:09:46

you. What started

1:09:48

as an unsolicited email

1:09:50

became this. Thank

1:09:53

you. I learned

1:09:55

a lot about you and I loved

1:09:57

hearing all these

1:09:59

things you said. I'll be thinking about them for days And

1:10:03

now yeah question, yeah This

1:10:08

is three books. Is it two books? What are you feeling?

1:10:10

Yeah, we're gonna be here for a while Actually

1:10:14

that that's going against everything we just talked about yeah

1:10:17

There's a lot of stories. Yeah a lot

1:10:19

of story ahead very cool. Mm-hmm.

1:10:22

Thank you Awesome if people

1:10:24

want to golf writing is your

1:10:27

thing? Yeah, do

1:10:30

people contact you do they give shout-outs so they invite

1:10:32

you to their course do you how's it work? Well,

1:10:35

yeah, I mean usually when I'm doing the thing with

1:10:37

the strangers I don't want anyone to know I want

1:10:39

to know that I'm coming but But

1:10:41

yeah, just at paired up stories paired

1:10:44

up da I r-ed paired

1:10:47

up stories and Working

1:10:49

on the book now But

1:10:51

that's where you can find me on the socials. Love

1:10:54

it. Love it. Thanks for coming to

1:10:56

the garage. Thanks Rob Enjoy your time in Ojai safe

1:10:59

travels if you see it there in van life if you see

1:11:01

a van on the side of the road Stop and make

1:11:03

sure we're okay Alright

1:11:08

friends peace and love