0:16

Hello everyone and welcome back

0:18

to another episode of the

0:20

Root of the Science podcast with your girl

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are aware when a new episode drops

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in . But let's get into

0:50

today's episode . So

0:52

our focus today is on food

0:54

security , and we're

0:57

focusing on it in the context

0:59

of Southern Africa . That is

1:01

because hunger has risen across Southern

1:03

Africa over the past two decades

1:05

, with issues such as climate change

1:08

, pests and diseases . Conflict

1:10

, natural disasters , poverty

1:13

, gender inequality and

1:15

diseases contribute to

1:18

food insecurity . Nearly

1:21

19 million children are stunted

1:23

and over 40 million people face

1:25

food insecurity annually

1:27

, according to the Southern African Development

1:30

Community . Our

1:43

guest today is Professor Kennedy Dzama . He is an expert in animal genetics and leads the Southern Africa

1:45

Food Lab at Stellenbosch University in South Africa . The Food Lab brings together

1:47

stakeholders and different actors to

1:49

address hunger and malnutrition

1:52

, and other overnutrition

1:54

as well , through collaboration

1:57

and innovation . Professor

1:59

Stammer's work connects agriculture

2:01

and food system , and today

2:03

he's here to share insights

2:06

on how the region

2:08

can tackle these challenges . Tune

2:10

in to learn about this research

2:12

and the lab's efforts to improve

2:15

food security and

2:17

work within the food systems . Let's

2:20

go , hello , prof . Prof Zama

2:22

, welcome to the show .

2:24

Hi

2:26

and thank you for having me .

2:29

It is such a pleasure to have you on

2:31

, and you know , to chat about the fantastic

2:33

work that your lab is doing . But

2:48

first things first , Prof , we'd love to get to know a bit about you before we get to know

2:50

about the work . So can you please kindly introduce yourself , touching on some parts of

2:52

your education and what really sparked this journey of your speciality , which is animal genetics

2:54

.

2:55

Okay , you're taking

2:57

me really far back

2:59

. Well

3:02

, I was born in Zimbabwe and my

3:04

early life was spent there by

3:06

my parents were farmers , so that's

3:08

really what sparked my

3:11

interest in this field

3:13

that I find myself in . I

3:16

was always intrigued by how they

3:18

use their basic knowledge of animal

3:22

and crop production in particular

3:25

, genetics , which I eventually specialized

3:28

in how they use that

3:31

basic information to improve

3:33

their own , you

3:35

know , processes on

3:38

the farm producing some crops

3:41

and some animals , some crops and

3:43

some animals . And

3:51

then I took up a degree in animal sciences at the University of Zimbabwe and

3:53

then I went

3:56

to the US after that for

3:58

my master's and PhD and

4:03

then came back to

4:07

, let's say , Africa , because I came back and

4:09

worked at the University of Zimbabwe

4:11

and then had a stint in Malawi

4:13

and then came to South Africa , which

4:16

is where you find me now .

4:18

Oh , lovely , so

4:20

impressive . I like the fact that it really

4:22

started with your parents

4:25

and all these years later

4:27

you are here and you've had

4:29

such an impressive career , prof , like you said

4:31

, it's a very long journey , but

4:33

could you maybe tell us about some of

4:36

the research projects that you're most

4:38

proud of in this illustrious career

4:40

of yours and why they also stand out for

4:42

you in this illustrious career of yours

4:44

, and why

4:47

they also stand out for you .

4:47

Wow , that's always difficult

4:49

.

4:51

Is it like picking your favorite child ?

4:53

Yes , Because

4:59

it's been a lot

5:01

of work that we have put together over

5:03

the last , you know , 20 , 30

5:05

years . But I actually

5:07

spoke to a friend of

5:09

mine who's just bought a farm and

5:13

he was asking me

5:15

about some of the work that I've done

5:17

and that actually brought

5:20

a spark into me and

5:22

I thought about that . That could be some

5:24

of the most important work I've done . This

5:27

work has to do with pigs . He's

5:29

trying to set up a pig

5:32

production system

5:35

which

5:38

would be in

5:40

some ways free range , in some ways

5:42

organic , trying

5:45

to certify local production and also

5:47

, you know , working with commercial

5:49

outlets . Then I remembered that

5:51

and he had read this book and

5:54

I had sort of packed

5:58

it on the side . I actually want to go

6:00

back to that sometime , to

6:12

go back to that sometime . So we have actually put together a very good baseline of what pigs to

6:14

use in those different setups . In particular . This is very

6:17

important now , if you look at how

6:19

we consume , we consume meat

6:23

or pig meat or pork in

6:25

terms of the demand

6:27

for

6:30

organic

6:32

or free-range pork

6:35

. And no one really

6:37

knows how to do this and I've met

6:39

some farmers around here and also when

6:42

I was working in Zimbabwe , we

6:44

were trying different things and

6:46

that led me to do some of that research

6:48

. So we have done some of the genetics

6:51

of what

6:53

type of animal can be used

6:55

in that and we started characterizing

6:58

it . But then I

7:00

haven't really finished that work , but I think

7:02

that that is very important , especially

7:04

now that one

7:07

of my old friends was looking

7:09

at it and he thinks it's very important

7:11

in what he's doing now . So

7:14

that's one of those pieces

7:18

of work that I really value quite a

7:20

bit , among others , of course .

7:23

That's so impressive . So , basically

7:25

, you're characterising these

7:28

pigs and especially , I think now in this setting

7:30

, like you rightly said , people are more conscious about

7:33

the types of food that they eat . Where

7:35

does it come from ? How was it bred

7:38

? So I think

7:40

it's very topical and

7:42

very important . So I think

7:44

you should definitely go back to that , prof , and

7:47

I'm glad that having a conversation

7:49

sparked it up again , because I'm sure

7:51

, as somebody at your

7:53

level , you have done extensive work

7:55

in

7:58

different parts . Right , yeah

8:00

, correct , yeah . So let's

8:02

talk about your current child

8:04

, which is the work that you're doing

8:07

at Stellenbosch University here

8:09

in South Africa , and

8:11

it's called the Southern Africa Food

8:14

Labs Initiative .

8:24

So for our listeners , who might not know what it is . Could you please maybe explain

8:26

that for us and paint a picture on what this initiative is all about

8:28

? Yes

8:34

, this is an initiative that started around 2009

8:37

. And this is when like-minded

8:40

practitioners , let's say from

8:42

very diverse backgrounds , came

8:44

together with the whole

8:46

idea of looking and

8:48

exploring the

8:50

food system that we have

8:52

, not just here in South Africa , but

8:54

on the South and African subcontinent

8:57

, and to

8:59

look at issues like hunger

9:02

, malnutrition , overnutrition

9:04

as well . Okay , and

9:06

how , you know , all

9:09

these issues played out in our

9:11

food system . So it

9:13

included people from corporate

9:15

, from academia like

9:17

myself , from grassroots actors , from

9:20

government , from NGOs you know , grassroots actors , from

9:22

government , from NGOs

9:24

and

9:28

they came together with that same goal of investigating

9:31

, exploring and maybe try

9:33

to come up with solutions on

9:36

various problems

9:38

that we see in our food systems , as

9:41

much as sometimes we feel like

9:43

in some parts of the region

9:45

perhaps maybe this country

9:47

we might we

9:50

might have enough

9:54

food produced , but , for

9:56

example , how is that food

10:00

made accessible to all

10:02

the different parts of the population

10:04

? For example , are

10:07

some people not getting enough or

10:09

are some people getting too much ? And

10:13

both ends actually do come

10:15

up with unique problems , and

10:17

those are some of the things , in a very

10:19

broad sense

10:22

, that we're trying to look

10:24

at .

10:26

Prof , you know this conversation

10:29

and the work that you're doing . You mentioned all the different

10:31

areas that it touches on . It's very

10:33

complex , right , and it's

10:35

got very interrelated causes

10:37

, like you've already mentioned . Like this , you've given us a

10:39

very broad overview . So

10:41

, um , I wanted to ask , um

10:44

, I'm sure there are other initiatives , um

10:46

, in other parts of the , in parts

10:48

and parts of that , in other parts of the

10:50

world , that do this types of

10:52

work . So what makes

10:55

the lab , your lab

10:58

approach , maybe , unique or

11:00

different , or are you

11:02

maybe using some similar ideas

11:04

that other people are doing in tackling all of these

11:06

issues ?

11:11

Yeah , I think in many ways we'll

11:13

use tools that others have

11:16

used , but our

11:18

approach is obviously

11:21

interdisciplinary

11:23

and also transdisciplinary and

11:25

in many cases multidisciplinary

11:27

as well . Like I said

11:29

to you , it's a

11:31

whole diverse

11:35

group of actors

11:37

that we've put together and

11:40

then we use

11:43

different tools to try

11:45

and see how we can try

11:47

to perhaps not solve

11:50

, but make situations

11:52

better . And then

11:54

we have people coming

11:56

in with different tools

11:58

to try and

12:00

help us and

12:02

work with us to try

12:05

and make these situations

12:07

better . As you

12:09

know , the food system

12:11

is a complex issue . It's not

12:14

something that you can solve . As you know , the food system

12:16

is a complex issue . It's

12:22

not something that you can solve by some

12:24

linear tool . It involves all these actors

12:27

truly working together , and that's what we

12:29

think we're doing . So

12:34

it's for others to judge whether we are

12:37

unique or not , but I think that some

12:39

of the work that we have done on the ground

12:41

working in KZN

12:44

, working here in the Western

12:46

Cape , for example has

12:51

shown that we can actually

12:53

bring people together

12:55

from

12:59

very different viewpoints , which

13:02

is not easy to do .

13:03

Yeah .

13:05

And , in the end , make them try to see

13:07

things in the same light

13:09

, but remaining

13:11

who they are . So

13:14

that is really what we try

13:16

and do Just

13:22

the diversity of this group

13:24

, I think helps

13:29

us to try

13:32

and unpack these complexities

13:35

. Someone was asking me

13:37

the other day a very similar question says

13:39

you're working with so-and-so

13:43

, and in that question they asked about

13:45

a colleague of mine , a prof to Lima

13:47

Dunsel , and they said doesn't that

13:49

bring conflict ? That is overstepping

13:52

. And I said no , no , no , no . We work

13:54

so well together . She

13:57

works on some of our projects

13:59

, we work on some of her

14:01

projects . We bring expertise that they don't

14:03

have and vice versa . So

14:05

that kind of synergy

14:08

is how we're working

14:10

and see that it works

14:12

very well . There

14:14

are many other examples . If I had time

14:16

I would delve into this , but if you go on

14:18

our website , you'll see

14:20

some of the things that we're doing .

14:23

You know , when you spoke of , for example

14:26

, your colleague Prof Trudy Madensela

14:28

, I actually wanted to ask about

14:31

how you foster these types of collaborations

14:33

. You mentioned you're working with various different actors

14:36

. You've got academics who think a particular

14:38

way . You've got , um , people in

14:40

policy who think a particular way . You're

14:42

probably working with the farmers , who also think in

14:45

a particular way . Um , so

14:47

, how do you , um

14:49

, you know , go about having

14:51

these , rather facilitate having these

14:54

conversations , so that the

14:57

project goes forward

14:59

and it's effective

15:02

?

15:03

Well , to begin with , there are trained

15:05

facilitators who

15:09

work in these

15:11

spaces of

15:13

, who know how to bring these

15:15

types of people that

15:17

and

15:20

it's not always people with diverse opinions

15:23

or views . It could be people with the

15:26

same sort of thinking , but maybe

15:28

not seeing things in

15:31

the same way . So

15:33

, and also the nature

15:36

of the work we do requires

15:38

that you are wired

15:40

in a certain way . I mean

15:42

, there are people that are

15:45

suited

15:47

to work in , you

15:50

know , single disciplines , what

15:53

we sometimes call silos

15:55

, and that's fine . I think

15:57

they should do that , because transdisciplinary

16:01

or multi or interdisciplinary

16:04

work requires those people

16:06

to generate knowledge for us , and

16:09

then we can use that knowledge in

16:11

these spaces . So people

16:16

that work in this

16:18

area think

16:21

a little bit differently , see things a little

16:23

bit differently , and

16:26

they're not . If they encounter

16:28

any problems

16:31

as they work with other groups , they're

16:34

not going to just quickly pack

16:36

up and go because of the way

16:38

they've been trained , the way they think . So

16:41

that is very , very important

16:43

. And then , of course , like I said , we bring in

16:45

other trained facilitators that

16:48

work with us . Let's

16:50

say , we wanted to facilitate a dialogue

16:53

on a certain issue

16:55

in a certain municipality or

16:57

district . We bring

16:59

those people and

17:01

they help us do that , and then we have

17:04

a lot of other tools that are available that

17:06

we use to synthesize that information

17:09

, pull it apart and then try

17:11

to put together a

17:13

map , a way forward .

17:17

That's very , very important , having

17:19

all those people come together

17:21

. I think it

17:23

would be remiss of me to not

17:25

ask this question . Can you maybe

17:28

give us an example of a success

17:30

story ? I know you said we

17:32

can't direct people to the page

17:34

, but just so that people can have a picture

17:37

of practically what

17:39

are some of the things that the food lab

17:41

is actually doing .

17:44

Okay , yeah

17:46

, it's quite a lot , once more , putting

17:49

me on the spot . Okay , one

17:51

of the things that we've done is

17:57

a food systems

17:59

African food systems dialogue

18:01

and what that does

18:03

, and we've been doing this for

18:06

the last five or so

18:08

years . We went through

18:10

COVID and

18:12

that's one of the things that COVID didn't

18:15

manage to kill . So

18:17

it shows you that it's quite

18:20

a resilient project for us . So

18:22

we bring in experts to

18:26

come and give a talk on

18:28

a particular part of the food

18:30

system that they are working in , particular

18:33

part of the food system that they

18:35

are working in , and then they share

18:37

that with the audience . And then

18:40

, of course , we're based at

18:42

the University of Stellenbosch . Then the

18:45

second day it's a two-day

18:47

workshop . The second

18:49

day they sit with the young people

18:52

, the second day they sit with the young people and

18:54

then they unpack that topic

18:56

further and hearing

18:58

views in particular of the young

19:01

people and that dialogue

19:03

, I think , has really done

19:07

wonders . We have had some wonderful speakers

19:09

. We have unpacked for us a

19:11

number of complex issues in our food

19:13

systems and we are in the process

19:15

of putting together a book based

19:18

on those . We have had people

19:22

as high up as senior

19:26

international civil servants

19:28

working for the UN . We

19:30

have had academics , we

19:33

have had some activists

19:35

, we have had people

19:37

working in commercial food industry

19:39

and so on and so forth . So that has been

19:42

very exciting . And then we have had

19:44

some facilitated

19:47

guides trying

19:49

to look at food security issues

19:51

here in the Western Cape , in the Vusta area

19:53

I'll

20:02

again refer you to our website for more details on that . Some very good

20:05

work there happening in some of the poorer township

20:07

areas , trying to interrogate what's happening

20:09

there . And also in KZN

20:11

we have had some work

20:14

with small farmers there Again

20:18

trying to see what

20:21

space do they occupy in

20:24

the food system and

20:26

what role do they play and what

20:28

constraints do they face and how

20:31

can they be directed to the right

20:33

places . And

20:35

there are a number of players in that group

20:39

working in that group

20:41

as well , together with NGOs , local

20:44

government and

20:46

academia , for example

20:48

. So those are three examples that I

20:50

will refer

20:54

to you and for further details

20:56

they will be on our website , and I think

20:58

we're very excited about that . We

21:04

haven't done more beyond

21:07

the borders of South Africa . We're planning

21:09

to engage with colleagues

21:12

in SADC . There are a number of projects

21:15

we've realized food systems

21:17

projects that are within

21:20

an arm of SADC called CADESA

21:22

, which is the R&D wing of SADC

21:25

, and we've engaged them

21:27

and they're willing to come together

21:31

and for us to start looking at the

21:35

same food systems issues , not

21:38

just here in South Africa , but in other

21:40

countries as well .

21:43

That's so impressive . That's really impressive

21:45

the type of work that you do and

21:47

, like you rightly said , we'll also attach

21:49

the link so that people can check

21:52

further information and the types

21:54

of projects and it's really exciting

21:56

that you are expanding the

21:59

horizons and tapping into other places

22:02

, particularly in Africa . We've

22:06

seen the issue of climate change I'm sure

22:08

it's a topic that comes up often

22:10

and I'm sure even in your the food

22:12

dialogues that happen and

22:15

I wanted to ask you with

22:18

this what are some of the biggest

22:21

challenges or opportunities ? You

22:23

foresee that

22:28

, for example , the work that you do could

22:31

help in addressing food

22:33

security in Southern Africa

22:35

?

22:38

Yeah , in fact , when I spoke

22:40

about that project

22:43

on pigs , I

22:46

forgot to mention that one of

22:48

the key for an

22:50

animal that can utilize less

22:52

of the food that is eaten by humans

22:55

, for

23:15

example , we wanted to give those pigs

23:18

can eat more fibrous diets

23:20

using , let's say , corn

23:23

and corn meal , which

23:31

then has implications

23:33

on , obviously , climate change . So the less

23:35

food that humans consume , the

23:37

less of it that we give to animals

23:40

, I think has implications

23:42

on climate change as well , in

23:45

terms of how much we have

23:48

to produce for animals , how much we have to produce

23:50

for humans , for

23:53

humans , yeah , up

24:03

to the whole food production system , where you continuously

24:05

have to destroy

24:08

natural vegetation

24:10

to convert

24:12

it into farmland . So

24:16

the less we do that , the better

24:18

, and so we were looking at production

24:20

systems that

24:23

favor converting

24:25

natural

24:28

vegetation into farmland , with

24:31

the

24:33

results the negative results of that are

24:35

well known . I don't have to get into that . So

24:39

a lot of the work that

24:41

we do across the food

24:44

system has implications

24:47

on climate change and

24:50

vice versa . In fact , we

24:52

work very closely here at

24:54

Stellenbosch University . One

25:05

of the advantages of the food lab being situated here is that we also

25:07

tap into the resources that are here and we also have a school

25:09

of climate studies here at the University of Stellenbosch which is

25:13

working in

25:16

all aspects of climate change

25:18

, and they act

25:20

as a backup for

25:22

us , giving us all the technical data

25:25

in terms of how climate is

25:27

changing around Southern

25:30

Africa in particular and

25:33

how that advisory can

25:35

be used in terms of

25:38

what's happening in the

25:40

food system , starting from the production

25:42

itself . So there

25:44

is huge interrelationships

25:47

between

25:50

what we do and

25:52

climate change and

25:57

these two are very important topics

25:59

going forward and

26:02

that's why we are so engaged

26:04

in that area .

26:08

I like the fact again , that example

26:10

of working with the climate the

26:13

School of Climate Change , et cetera is

26:15

another beautiful example of collaboration

26:18

that the Food Lab does

26:20

, and it's beautiful that it starts at an

26:22

institutional level

26:24

as well , which is very

26:26

important . Prof

26:28

, we've had a very rich conversation . We've

26:30

spoken about various different things and

26:34

I think it would be great to

26:36

maybe just have a final golden nugget

26:38

from you . You are well-ac

26:40

, well accomplished in academia

26:43

, and I wanted to ask you if you had any advice

26:45

for somebody who's listening and they're a young

26:47

researcher or a young professional

26:50

who wants to work in this

26:52

particular space and

26:55

make an impact in food security

26:57

and agriculture . What would you say

27:00

to them ?

27:02

Yes , it's quite interesting

27:04

that when I interact with young

27:06

people of course

27:08

I also teach here at Bristol

27:11

University and

27:14

other areas these

27:17

topics are so

27:19

exciting for them . They are so keen

27:22

on getting

27:24

into areas

27:27

of food security

27:29

, food systems , nutrition , climate

27:31

change . But these are issues

27:35

that we classify

27:38

as being complex , and

27:40

complex issues do not have a solution

27:42

. That's by definition , and complex issues do not have a solution . That's

27:45

by definition . And they

27:47

are usually not very easy to deal with and

27:50

, in particular , as we have discussed

27:53

in this conversation , you deal with them

27:55

from an interdisciplinary

27:57

or transdisciplinary sort

28:00

of approach . So

28:02

what I would always

28:04

say to young people

28:07

, particularly those who are still studying at

28:11

their undergraduate degrees , is don't

28:14

abandon what you're doing . Interdisciplinary

28:17

and transdisciplinary scholarship requires

28:20

that you deepen

28:22

your understanding of your disciplines

28:24

. So deepen your understanding

28:26

of what you're doing now . It

28:29

helps when you get to postgraduate level

28:31

and our

28:33

university , for example , our faculty

28:35

, for example offers degrees

28:38

now at that level in

28:41

interdisciplinary studies . For example

28:44

, we have programs

28:46

in food and nutrition security

28:48

, we have a master's degree in sustainable

28:51

agriculture and so on

28:53

and so forth . So

28:55

when you get to that level and you have a very

28:58

good foundation , you are able to interrogate

29:00

these complex problems . So

29:03

that is really

29:05

the advice that I give you

29:07

cannot , at a very lower level

29:10

, start trying

29:13

to solve this or getting into these areas

29:15

, because the complexity will just frustrate

29:18

you and you might end up leaving . So

29:20

deepen your disciplinary education

29:22

and then , as you approach

29:25

your master's , phds , you can

29:27

start getting into these areas and

29:29

then you can start to enjoy them , and

29:32

I've seen a lot of youngsters do

29:34

that and they are flourishing

29:37

around here , and some of our

29:40

students and youngsters

29:43

that we've trained here all

29:46

over the world working in

29:48

global institutions .

29:51

Fantastic . Thank you so much for

29:53

that piece of advice and I hope somebody really

29:56

utilizes that , and also just

29:59

thank you for your time . Thank you for coming

30:01

on to the show and talking

30:03

about the work that you do

30:05

as a lab at

30:08

the university , and I wish

30:10

you all of the best in all of your other projects

30:12

and all your other endeavors that you're

30:15

involved in . Thank

30:17

you so much .

30:18

Thank you for having me . Thank you so much .

30:19

Thank you for having me . It's a pleasure . And to everybody

30:21

else who's tuned in , thank

30:25

you so much for listening to another episode of the Ridge of the Suns podcast

30:27

with your girl and with Anine . Until next time , goodbye .