0:01

Right now I am sitting in a

0:03

hotel room in Kachian National Park

0:06

in Vietnam. It's the middle of

0:08

the afternoon. It's pretty hot

0:10

and humid out there because this

0:12

national park is in a low

0:14

elevation tropical rainforest ecosystem.

0:17

There's a good chance

0:19

it's actually going to rain here

0:21

in an hour or two as it

0:23

so often does in the afternoon. This

0:25

is unusual. I have never recorded

0:27

a Science of Birds podcast

0:30

episode outside of my little

0:32

closet at home that I

0:34

use as a recording studio.

0:36

So the audio quality and character is

0:38

going to be different. I will

0:40

of course process it after I

0:43

record, but it's going to be

0:45

different. And another major difference

0:47

here with this episode and

0:49

the next few, and I'll

0:51

explain in a moment, is that

0:53

they are unscripted. Normally, you

0:55

may know that I write a full

0:57

script for each of my podcast episodes.

1:00

Word for word. Because I'm traveling

1:02

here in Vietnam and I'll also

1:04

be visiting several other Asian countries,

1:06

I want to keep putting out

1:08

podcast episodes, but I don't have

1:10

my usual way of producing them.

1:13

So this is a little bit

1:15

of an experiment. I'm kind of

1:17

interested to see how it goes

1:19

and interested to hear from you

1:21

guys, my listeners, what you think

1:23

about this. Because I do a

1:25

lot of traveling for my work and

1:27

it would be kind of cool if

1:29

I could do this every so often

1:31

and if you guys actually enjoy

1:34

it. And if I enjoy it. So

1:36

I'm expecting that I will

1:38

produce several shorter episodes like

1:40

this sort of in the

1:42

field as I'm on this

1:44

particular travel adventure. And then

1:46

when I get home, I will resume

1:48

my normal way of doing things, because

1:50

I really like the process that I

1:52

have and it seems to work for

1:55

you guys. So why am I in Vietnam

1:57

and why do I have this larger trip

1:59

in Asia? I lead birding tours,

2:01

I have a small business that I

2:04

co-own with my buddy Steve called Wild

2:06

Latitudes, and we've been running that for

2:08

about seven or eight years now, and

2:10

we have destinations to various places around

2:13

the world. This is the first tour

2:15

I've personally led for a while here

2:17

in Vietnam, and it's going to continue

2:20

into Cambodia in a week or so,

2:22

which is very exciting. But I have

2:24

other tours coming up like early next

2:26

year. I'll be doing a tour in

2:29

Patagonia and then later in the year

2:31

China So lots of cool stuff. It's

2:33

a pretty cool gig and Until I

2:36

did the podcast that was my only

2:38

means of income that was my only

2:40

job But since about 2020 when I

2:42

started the podcast the podcast has ever

2:45

so slowly become a significant portion of

2:47

the work I do and it gives

2:49

me about half of my income now,

2:51

so it's very much a real career

2:54

and so I definitely want to keep

2:56

it going when I have these more

2:58

extended trips. And this is a very

3:01

extended trip. This is the longest trip

3:03

I've ever taken in my entire life.

3:05

It's going to be a little over

3:07

two and a half months, thus the

3:10

reason the need for producing podcast episodes

3:12

in the field. Right. So I'm again

3:14

in Vietnam. Outside there's a little roof,

3:17

a little... restaurant covered with a thatched

3:19

roof right by the Dongnai River, which

3:21

is completely brown with sediment, very much

3:23

a tropical river, lined with bamboo and

3:26

all kinds of large tropical trees. Lots

3:28

of good birds out there, and I'll

3:30

probably be producing at least one episode,

3:33

if not a couple, about the actual

3:35

birding experiences and the kinds of birds

3:37

you can see in this part of

3:39

the world in Southeast Asia and beyond.

3:42

Because after Cambodia, I'll be spending several

3:44

weeks in China. Then I'm going to

3:46

go spend a short time in Nepal

3:49

and then eventually a couple weeks in

3:51

Bhutan. So here we go. This is

3:53

our first episode in the field for

3:55

the science of birds. And of course,

3:58

what would us... Science of Birds podcast

4:00

episode B without the intro. Hello and

4:02

welcome. This is The Science of Birds.

4:04

I am your host Ivan Philipson. The

4:07

Science of Birds podcast is a light-hearted

4:09

exploration for lifelong learners. This episode, which

4:11

is going to be relatively short, this

4:14

in-the-field episode, this unscripted episode, is going

4:16

to be about my journey to how

4:18

I got here. How did I, Ivan

4:20

Phillips and end up becoming someone whose

4:23

entire life is devoted to birds? And

4:25

I've told this story in various bits

4:27

and pieces over the years in the

4:30

podcast and in various ways, but I

4:32

thought I would just kind of do

4:34

it all here and in again in

4:36

a relatively short way. and just tell

4:39

you my story. I hope you find

4:41

it interesting and maybe inspiring if you,

4:43

you know, dream of doing work that

4:46

is based around something that you are

4:48

very passionate about. One bit of advice

4:50

we sometimes get is to follow your

4:52

passion in your career. And that can

4:55

be really cool and really end work

4:57

for many of us. But sometimes you

4:59

have to be more practical and you

5:02

just have to kind of leverage the

5:04

skills you have and do what you

5:06

can and your job is just kind

5:08

of a... nine to five or whatever,

5:11

it's just a means to an end.

5:13

But I feel very lucky that through

5:15

a series of circumstances, some of it

5:17

luck and some of it intentional, I

5:20

ended up doing this work that is

5:22

something that I feel very excited about,

5:24

very passionate about, it brings me a

5:27

lot of joy, and yes, it's still

5:29

work, it's still hard sometimes, but it

5:31

is, I just feel very fortunate to

5:33

be doing what I'm doing. So I

5:36

am going to be telling a story

5:38

again that doesn't have a script so

5:40

it probably won't flow as smoothly as

5:43

I think my podcast episodes normally do.

5:45

So if we start at the beginning

5:47

of the story, when I was a

5:49

little kid, I had a inborn, what

5:52

feels like an inborn interest in nature

5:54

and science. And I'm going to guess

5:56

that that might be true for many

5:59

of you listening right now, that you

6:01

too have just this inborn ingrained desire

6:03

to learn about animals and plants in

6:05

the natural world. and how it all

6:08

works. And that was me as a

6:10

little kid. I really loved all that

6:12

stuff. And my dad was really into

6:15

nature. He wasn't a professional biologist or

6:17

anything like that. But he loved learning.

6:19

He was a lifelong learner. And not

6:21

just in science, but all kinds of

6:24

things. And he and I were very

6:26

close. And yeah, he just took me

6:28

out to places to go for walks

6:30

and go to the zoo. I have

6:33

a lot of really fond memories of

6:35

going to the Los Angeles Zoo. because

6:37

I grew up in Southern California and

6:40

so dad would take me over there

6:42

and we'd see all kinds of cool

6:44

stuff. And that eventually flowered into just

6:46

this full-on love of animals and that

6:49

became more specific as I hit about

6:51

seven or eight years old when my

6:53

passion was really concentrated on reptiles and

6:56

amphibians. Those were my critters and I

6:58

would have the guidebooks and all these...

7:00

books on how to take care of

7:02

them because I had all of the

7:05

terrariums and aquariums full of frogs and

7:07

snakes and salamanders and turtles and lizards.

7:09

All of them. I had them all.

7:12

And interestingly, we did have at least

7:14

one pet bird that I remember. Actually

7:16

a couple, we had a budgy, a

7:18

budger agar. His name was Buddy, which,

7:21

you know, wasn't very creative of us,

7:23

but that was his name. So I

7:25

did have a couple birds along the

7:28

way, but I was just very fixated

7:30

on reptiles and amphibs and amphibibians. And

7:32

I even thought when I was seven,

7:34

eight, nine years old that I was

7:37

going to be a pet store owner.

7:39

when I grew up. That was the

7:41

career that I envisioned for myself. But

7:44

then I sort of grew out of

7:46

that and kind of got a little

7:48

more realistic and a little more ambitious.

7:50

So fast forward to high school, I'm

7:53

still interested in reptiles and amphibians, that's

7:55

still sort of my thing. But I'm

7:57

a teenager now, so of course now

7:59

I'm learning how to play bass guitar

8:02

and being a rock and roll band

8:04

and I've got my girlfriend and my

8:06

buddies and so I'm a little bit

8:09

disconnected from nature at that time. I

8:11

was a little more involved in social

8:13

stuff. And then it was time to

8:15

go to college to pick my major.

8:18

What was I going to study in

8:20

school? Very big decision, right? When you're

8:22

17 years old. Well, I decided to

8:25

go into science. The other alternative would

8:27

have been art. I always enjoyed drawing

8:29

and painting and I used to take

8:31

lessons and stuff and I was often

8:34

considered kind of the artist kid to

8:36

an extent. Not that I was ever

8:38

like super amazing, but I was an

8:41

artist. But I decided to go what

8:43

I thought was the practical route and

8:45

go into science. Now did I go

8:47

off to some big, you know, prestigious

8:50

university right away? No. Not that there's

8:52

anything wrong with that, but I went

8:54

to community college. And this is all

8:57

again in Southern California. So I went

8:59

to Riverside Community College, RCC, and I

9:01

moved out of the house, lived with

9:03

some buddies, and got in a bunch

9:06

of trouble being a bunch of idiots.

9:08

But I went to community college and

9:10

took all kinds of stuff. And my

9:12

first semester at community college though, I

9:15

took zoology, starting off with invertebrate zoology,

9:17

then vertebrate zoology. And I gotta tell

9:19

you, I was in heaven, absolute heaven,

9:22

being able to sit in there and

9:24

just, you know, geek out with the

9:26

professor and my classmates about all these

9:28

weird invertebrates like squid and jellyfish and

9:31

worms and stuff. And then get into

9:33

the vertebrates and just, it was just.

9:35

Really red of my alley. I loved

9:38

it. I love science. I love natural

9:40

history So I kicked around in community

9:42

college for a few years and I

9:44

wasn't really super serious because again I

9:47

was kind of more focused on my

9:49

friends and girls and rocks and rock

9:51

and roll, not rocks, rock and roll.

9:54

And the stuff that we did was

9:56

all pretty tame by most people's standards.

9:58

We were pretty good kids, but yeah,

10:00

and I had some, you know, little

10:03

jobs and things and just made my

10:05

way through community college. And then I

10:07

went off to university. I did go

10:10

to a university. I actually moved back

10:12

in with my parents and I started

10:14

commuting to a school, Cal Poly Pomona,

10:16

which I know I know I've talked

10:19

about. some of my experiences there on

10:21

the Wrens episode. Because one of my

10:23

first and most formative bird experiences happened

10:25

at Cal Polypomona when I volunteered to

10:28

work with a professor on a campus

10:30

project studying the Cactus Wren. As I

10:32

described in the, I believe the Wrens

10:35

episode, I talked about this small patch

10:37

of habitat that was just on the

10:39

edge of the campus and we did

10:41

these nest surveys for Cactus Wrens. And

10:44

so I got really into that. I

10:46

thought it was just really cool going

10:48

out early in the morning collecting data.

10:51

And it got me out there when

10:53

the birds were active and really starting

10:55

to open my eyes and my ears

10:57

to the wonderful world of birds and

11:00

birding. And I made some friends who

11:02

were who self-identified as birders, which I

11:04

still didn't at the time, but I

11:07

started to become interested and I had

11:09

really fun experiences out there. And the

11:11

bird that I credit as my spark

11:13

bird is the California Tohi. Melisoni Chrysalis.

11:16

I was walking on campus one day

11:18

with my friend and he was more

11:20

of a birder than I was more

11:23

knowledgeable and he stopped us in mid-conversation

11:25

and he said, hey, do you hear

11:27

that? There's something in the bushes there,

11:29

something kicking around. And I was like,

11:32

yeah, yeah, I hear it. And there's

11:34

this little scratching sound in the leaves.

11:36

And he said, that's a California towee.

11:38

And that's what they do. They kick

11:41

the leaves and they forge for whatever

11:43

little invertebrates are underneath the leaves. And

11:45

it's just. this kind of brown scrappy

11:48

bird, it's nothing, you know, super colorful

11:50

or whatever, but I was just really

11:52

impressed with my friend's ability to hear

11:54

that sound and understand what was going

11:57

on, know the name of the species

11:59

and a little bit about its behavior,

12:01

and that just stuck with me. And

12:04

so I give that bird the credit

12:06

for being my spark bird, and if

12:08

you've never heard that term, in birding

12:10

it means it's the species or the

12:13

individual bird that you first fell in

12:15

love with that just made you become

12:17

ultimately a birder a birder. It created

12:20

the spark that eventually would become a

12:22

raging inferno. So yeah, California Tohi, that

12:24

was my spark bird. And I'm just

12:26

gonna pause here for a second because,

12:29

you know, I'm not sure how I'm

12:31

gonna process this audio in this episode,

12:33

whether or not I'm gonna try to

12:36

remove all the background noise, but you

12:38

may hear that there are voices outside.

12:40

There are a bunch of Vietnamese people

12:42

in the restaurant outside. It's this open-air

12:45

restaurant that's part of the national park

12:47

headquarters here. So anyway, there's just this

12:49

ambient sound, and maybe that's just part

12:52

of the fun here. I'm not going

12:54

to try to go crazy trying to

12:56

get rid of every little ambient sound.

12:58

Okay, so now I've had some experiences

13:01

with birds, and you know, I'm interested,

13:03

but I'm still kind of on the

13:05

the Riptile and Amphibian track in my

13:07

mind, if ever I was going to

13:10

focus on something. And that is exactly

13:12

what ended up happening, was that I

13:14

eventually, once I graduated as an undergraduate,

13:17

I got a job working as a

13:19

field biologist in San Bernardino County, California.

13:21

There is a museum there that was

13:23

doing a reptile and amphibian survey for

13:26

habitat conservation. And I got this cool

13:28

job where I had a county truck,

13:30

this big orange truck, and I got

13:33

to drive it around to maybe five

13:35

or six or maybe even ten sites

13:37

every morning from the spring through the

13:39

summer to check these live traps for

13:42

wild reptiles and amphibians. So these traps

13:44

were set up in these arrays in

13:46

some natural. habitat. These drift fences and

13:49

buckets and things are little traps. And

13:51

again, these are live traps. The animals

13:53

aren't being harmed. So I would show

13:55

up in my county truck and I'd

13:58

go over there and I'd have all

14:00

my tools. And I'd open up these

14:02

buckets and I'd look in and there'd

14:05

be snakes and lizards and frogs and

14:07

all kinds of stuff that fell in

14:09

there overnight because you'd check these things

14:11

every day. And I would put my

14:14

gloves on and reach in and pull

14:16

stuff out. And it's wiggling and kicking

14:18

and kicking little animals. and I would

14:20

measure them their lengths and their weight

14:23

and take all kinds of recordings, all

14:25

kinds of data from each individual, put

14:27

it on a data sheet on paper,

14:30

because that's what we used to do.

14:32

We used to use paper, kids, and

14:34

then I'd release the critter and off

14:36

I'd go to the next site. And

14:39

it was really cool, because I would

14:41

get up early in the morning and

14:43

I'd have my coffee on the way

14:46

over there and I'd listen to the

14:48

radio. And then I'd get out there

14:50

in the cool, crisp morning and walk

14:52

around to many of these sites that

14:55

were quite pretty and interesting habitats. And

14:57

it was like, kind of like Christmas

14:59

every day, or my birthday every day,

15:02

you had to open these presents with

15:04

all these presents with all these interesting

15:06

reptiles and amphibians. Some of which you

15:08

would just never find, or it'd be

15:11

very, very difficult to find if you

15:13

were just to go out and look

15:15

for them. So the fact that they're

15:18

in these traps. Kind of a dream

15:20

come true, it was a really cool

15:22

job. It was never meant to be

15:24

forever, and it certainly wasn't. It lasted

15:27

less than a year before the program

15:29

was basically finished or shut down or

15:31

whatever it was. The funding ran out

15:33

basically, sadly. So then I decided to

15:36

go ahead and go on to, you

15:38

know, continue on to grad school. So

15:40

back to school. So I went on

15:43

to get a master's at Cal State

15:45

San Bernardino and because, you know, you

15:47

go to grad school, you want to

15:49

get a degree in biology. then you

15:52

get to choose what your research project

15:54

is going to be. What is your

15:56

thesis project? So little Ivan Philipson who

15:59

loved frogs as a kid and... And

16:01

snakes and lizards and all that, well,

16:03

he decided to study frogs. I did

16:05

my project on the California tree frog,

16:08

which is this cool little species that

16:10

lives in rocky streams in southern California

16:12

and in northern Mexico. So yeah, that's

16:15

what I did for four years. I

16:17

did a genetic study of the California

16:19

tree frog, looking at sort of its

16:21

recent evolutionary history, looking at the different

16:24

populations and relating their genetic relatedness to

16:26

each other. And it was really cool.

16:28

And I had a really great time

16:31

doing that. And some of my friends

16:33

along the way, in both, you know,

16:35

again, undergraduate, but also in my master's

16:37

program, were birders, including my advisor. He

16:40

was a really great birder, and so

16:42

that kind of opened my eyes and

16:44

ears again even further to this world

16:47

of birding. But I still was not

16:49

converted 100% yet. I still didn't call

16:51

myself a birder. I was still going

16:53

to keep studying frogs and amphibians, and

16:56

that's what I did. I moved to

16:58

Oregon. and I went to Oregon State

17:00

University to do my PhD. So now

17:02

I'm gonna get a doctorate and guess

17:05

what? I'm gonna keep on studying frogs,

17:07

different frogs, but still frogs, and that's

17:09

exactly what I did. And that program

17:12

lasted about five years, and I was

17:14

in the lab a lot, and I

17:16

was in the lab a lot, sitting

17:18

at the computer analyzing data. I also

17:21

did get to do some really cool

17:23

field work hiking around in the mountains

17:25

looking for frogs. But once again, I

17:28

had my colleagues, my colleagues, my friends,

17:30

fellow grads, fellow grads, fellow grads, fellow

17:32

grads, fellow grads, fellow grads, So it

17:34

just became this thing, you know, just

17:37

yeah, just kind of always in the

17:39

background, just birds, birds, birds. And then

17:41

after my PhD, I went ahead and

17:44

got a job as a postdoc, also

17:46

at Oregon State University studying other things.

17:48

I studied aquatic insects for a while,

17:50

which was pretty cool. And then, when

17:53

that was all over, I made the

17:55

big decision to, instead of going on

17:57

to be a professor, which was the

18:00

original plan that was plan A, and

18:02

had been for a long time, I

18:04

decided you know what? This has all

18:06

been great. It's been great to do

18:09

science and to be in academia and

18:11

all of that jazz, but... In the

18:13

end, I decided it wasn't quite for

18:15

me. It wasn't the best fit. I'd

18:18

spent, you know, 12 years of my

18:20

life or whatever in that world, got

18:22

some fun research papers published in good

18:25

journals and things, and I felt fairly

18:27

accomplished, but I didn't want to go

18:29

on and keep doing local nature tours.

18:31

And this was after a lot of

18:34

sort of brainstorming and thinking about the

18:36

pros and cons of this decision, but

18:38

it was a big one. And it

18:41

was one that I feel very happy

18:43

that I made. I have no regrets

18:45

about doing that. It's really one of

18:47

the best things I ever did. So

18:50

we had a van and we bought

18:52

a van and used that to pick

18:54

up groups of people, either from two

18:57

to ten people, and take them off

18:59

into the wild parts of Oregon and

19:01

Washington. and show them all the things,

19:03

right? So not just frogs, not just

19:06

birds, but everything. The plants, the insects,

19:08

the geology, talk about the climate, environmental

19:10

issues, whatever, just everything. Which is really

19:13

fun. I really enjoyed being just a

19:15

general naturalist, a naturalist guide for these

19:17

mostly tourists visiting Portland Oregon, where I

19:19

live. So that was fairly successful. It

19:22

only lasted a couple years, but the

19:24

business eventually, after that first year or

19:26

so, really picked up and we had,

19:28

you know, kind of, I was working

19:31

basically every day in the spring and

19:33

summer out hiking with people, so I

19:35

was in pretty good shape. And the

19:38

thing is, every time I went out,

19:40

no matter where I was, even if

19:42

I never found any insects or any

19:44

frogs. I always had birds to show

19:47

people. There were always birds. You could

19:49

hear them, you could see them. They

19:51

were just so satisfying and so reliable.

19:54

And I was always taking notes and

19:56

recording the species I was seeing. And

19:58

so I got really good at knowing

20:00

my local birds, knowing, you know. not

20:03

just their names but also their calls

20:05

and their songs and a lot about

20:07

their biology and that was very satisfying

20:10

and so it just it just I

20:12

became a birder at that point that's

20:14

where that transition happened I can tell

20:16

you there was one particular day where

20:19

I'm like don't da-da-da-da-a I am a

20:21

birder now but you know it it

20:23

it definitely happened and I felt comfortable

20:26

calling myself that you know And then

20:28

that business, we kind of folded up

20:30

shop on that business. My business partner

20:32

and I had some disagreements and so

20:35

we just dissolved that business and then

20:37

moved on. And in the meantime though,

20:39

I started working as a naturalist board

20:41

ships. I got this kind of gig

20:44

where I worked maybe a few weeks

20:46

a year working on national geographic ships

20:48

for a company called Limblad Expeditions. And

20:51

I started going to Alaska and then

20:53

Baja California Mexico. And I was always

20:55

seeing birds and talking to who the

20:57

tour guests about birds on those voyages.

21:00

And then I got connected with the

21:02

local Audubon Society in Portland and started

21:04

leading multi-day tours with them. So I

21:07

started doing day tours, right? These kind

21:09

of general nature day tours. And now,

21:11

working with Audubon, I'm doing these multi-day

21:13

trips that are much more focused on

21:16

birds. And some of those are domestic

21:18

and many of them started to be

21:20

international. And while I was there, I

21:23

made friends with my now business partner

21:25

Steve. And so when Steve left that

21:27

organization, we decided to start our own

21:29

business, and that is wild latitudes, and

21:32

that is what I'm doing to this

21:34

very day. And of course, you know,

21:36

after just a couple years of being

21:39

in business, that's when COVID hit 2020,

21:41

right? And so it was just like,

21:43

we had this fairly new business, we

21:45

were just getting it off the ground,

21:48

we were having some success. We were

21:50

having some success. patting ourselves on the

21:52

back, and what do you know? We

21:55

get this global catastrophe that totally ends

21:57

travel for most of us. So... We

21:59

just kind of had to hunker down

22:01

and ride it out before we could

22:04

get back to business. But thankfully we

22:06

didn't have to go bankrupt or shudder

22:08

the business, close it all down. We

22:11

were able to just stay lean and

22:13

mean because we really had very low

22:15

overhead. We didn't have employees. We didn't

22:17

have office space or vehicles or anything

22:20

that we had to put in money

22:22

on a regular monthly basis. Pretty low

22:24

overhead. So that's what really I think

22:27

allowed us to survive. But as you may

22:29

know. Well, see, there's a motorcycle.

22:31

Yeah, there's always motorcycles. If

22:33

you come to Vietnam, you're

22:35

going to see a lot of motorcycles,

22:37

let me tell you that. And

22:40

even here in this National Park,

22:42

these little motorbikes, just zipping

22:44

up and down, I think a

22:46

lot of the rangers actually use

22:48

these little motorbikes, just zipping up

22:50

and down. I think a lot

22:52

of the rangers actually use these

22:54

little motorbikes, I think a lot

22:57

of the rangers, Because, you know, early

22:59

in the pandemic, we didn't know. We didn't know

23:01

how long it was going to last. It could

23:03

have been a year. It could have been five

23:05

years before things sort of returned to normal.

23:08

So I started the podcast, not necessarily

23:10

because I thought it was going to

23:12

become a career, but because it was

23:14

something I was interested in. I just have

23:16

this general drive to create things and then

23:18

put them out there in the world. I

23:21

was always having some kind of blog or

23:23

another going back to the early 2000s. And

23:25

so it was a good excuse

23:27

because I had nothing but time,

23:30

so I started recording this podcast,

23:32

and here we are, 106 episodes

23:34

later. And as I was saying, the

23:36

podcast, The Science of Birds, gives

23:39

me a significant portion of my

23:41

income, it feeds me, it houses

23:43

me, it's really quite important to

23:45

me now, it's essential. And I

23:48

love that. I absolutely love that

23:50

this is a viable job for me,

23:52

and really for anyone, that it's so

23:54

cool. And I just feel so honored, you

23:57

know, that you guys enjoy listening to the

23:59

show learning about... birds with me, which

24:01

is great. So yeah, so that's kind

24:03

of connecting the dots for me, for

24:05

how it worked. And you know, probably

24:07

if you talk to a birding guide,

24:10

you know, any other birding guide, everybody's

24:12

gonna have a unique story, right? And

24:14

you know, sometimes I don't know if

24:16

embarrassed is the right word, but almost

24:18

like, you know, there's this idea of

24:21

imposter syndrome where, you know, I've met

24:23

many people who have been just out

24:25

of their minds for birds since they

24:27

were like seven years old. Like I

24:30

was kind of out of my mind

24:32

for frogs and for reptiles as a

24:34

kid. So I have kind of come

24:36

to birds and birding later in life,

24:38

even though it was very sort of

24:41

a gradual increase over 25 years. Certainly

24:43

isn't a new thing. But yeah, I

24:45

think that, you know, you're gonna talk

24:47

to some folks and they're gonna be

24:49

like, yeah, you know, I've just, I

24:52

basically came out of the womb, a

24:54

birder. But for me, yeah, it was

24:56

more gradual. I love. that it's the

24:58

unpredictability of life. Because if you had

25:01

asked Ivan at a 12-year-old Ivan, what

25:03

kind of animals might he be focusing

25:05

on as a 45-plus-year-old man, I would

25:07

probably not have said birds. But I

25:09

just now I just can't get enough

25:12

of him. I think it's just the

25:14

greatest thing ever. And I just feel

25:16

so happy that I ended up doing

25:18

work with birds and, you know... just

25:21

totally immersing myself in ornithology in the

25:23

natural history of birds. I love teaching,

25:25

I love being an educator, so I

25:27

love that I can put this podcast

25:29

out there to the world, that anybody

25:32

can listen to it and learn along

25:34

with me, learn about birds and feel

25:36

the joy about birds that I have,

25:38

because man, I am just, they just

25:40

make me so happy. I mean, the

25:43

things I've been seeing here in this

25:45

National Park in Vietnam, it's like just

25:47

today I saw this Siamese fireback. which

25:49

is this gorgeous pheasant. I've been wanting

25:52

to see for years. I saw one

25:54

in a zoo a number of years

25:56

ago, and it was just like this

25:58

really cool bird. And sure enough, there

26:00

it was today in the wild, strutting

26:03

around in the Vietnamese jungle. You know,

26:05

and the stories go on and on,

26:07

I mean, it's not just, oh, that's,

26:09

you know, a beautiful bird, but, you

26:11

know, watching their behaviors, watching the responses

26:14

of my tour participants, how excited they

26:16

get, the questions they ask about the

26:18

biology of the animals, like, like, like,

26:20

there's just, there's just, there's just, there's

26:23

just, there's just, there's just, Coming up,

26:25

there'll be a couple, you know, we'll

26:27

do some more of these shorter episodes

26:29

while I'm in the field. And I

26:31

think maybe one episode could be something

26:34

about birding travel, you know, what that

26:36

involves and, you know, the pros and

26:38

cons of all different things, kind of

26:40

the ins and outs of that, because

26:42

I do a lot of it, and

26:45

I'm sure a lot of you do

26:47

as well, but some of you may

26:49

be curious as to, you know, kind

26:51

of some of the best practices and

26:54

tips and all that kind of stuff,

26:56

things to avoid whatever, things to avoid

26:58

whatever, so. If I can speak to

27:00

that as a quote-unquote expert, I think

27:02

that might be interesting, I would certainly

27:05

enjoy talking about it. So I want

27:07

to wrap this episode up. I think,

27:09

you know, again, I try to, when

27:11

I teach things, I love to try

27:13

to back out and look at the

27:16

bigger picture, right? The bigger picture. And,

27:18

you know, we're talking about birds. We're

27:20

talking about me specifically in my path.

27:22

But again, what I think my story

27:25

illustrates is the idea that... You might

27:27

be 15 years old and you might

27:29

have interest and you might think this

27:31

is where your life is going. Or

27:33

you might be 40 years old and

27:36

have similar ideas about where the future

27:38

is going to take you. And yes,

27:40

some of that may come true. And

27:42

there are a lot of things that

27:44

are in our control. We can make

27:47

decisions and we could do research and

27:49

make plans and all that stuff. But

27:51

sometimes, and maybe often, life will throw

27:53

a curveball at you. And maybe that's

27:56

something that even is not really good

27:58

doesn't seem good at the time when

28:00

it happens. be painful, really, really unfortunate.

28:02

But if you can pick yourself back

28:04

up and look at what you've got

28:07

in front of you and look at

28:09

the opportunities that arise, maybe because that

28:11

unfortunate thing happened, then you can go

28:13

off on a whole new path, one

28:15

that you never predicted you would go

28:18

down, and looking back years later, you

28:20

might realize, yeah, that was the best

28:22

thing. That was amazing that that thing

28:24

happened, and here I am doing this

28:27

now. So, you know, like I say,

28:29

when I connect the dots, it's just

28:31

like, yeah, I really love what I'm

28:33

doing now. I feel incredibly fortunate. I

28:35

just feel like it's, you know, in

28:38

many ways, a dream life. At least

28:40

when it comes to the work I'm

28:42

doing. And so, you know, if anything,

28:44

I think it's just looking for opportunities

28:46

questioning... the sort of standard thinking about

28:49

things, right? The idea that, oh, you

28:51

know, this is kind of how everybody

28:53

does it, so this is what I

28:55

gotta do too. It's like, yeah, maybe,

28:58

maybe that's how you should do it.

29:00

There's wisdom in that, but can't hurt

29:02

to just question and just think, well,

29:04

what if? What if I did this?

29:06

You know, for me, the big one

29:09

was, yeah, I've been on this academic

29:11

path with the undergraduate master's PhD, PhD,

29:13

postdoc. Well, the natural progression is then

29:15

you go become a professor somewhere. And

29:17

that's what all my friends are doing.

29:20

That was what I thought I was

29:22

going to do. That was the playbook,

29:24

right? But I took a moment to

29:26

take a breath and really think about

29:29

what did I want in my life?

29:31

Did I want to go down that

29:33

path? You know, because there's the sunk

29:35

cost fallacy, right? You're like, oh, I've

29:37

already spent all these years to get

29:40

to this point, so I must stay

29:42

on this path. I was like, no.

29:44

Yeah, just go do something else. I

29:46

mean, do, you know, you only have

29:49

one life, right? And, you know, we

29:51

don't always have all kinds of options,

29:53

but when you have options, maybe just

29:55

go for it. Oh, you know what?

29:57

The power just went out. So

30:00

again, I'm in this hotel room here

30:02

in Vietnam, and it got all quiet.

30:04

I can still hear people outside, but

30:06

the AC went off. So I'm gonna

30:08

die pretty soon. It's like 90 degrees

30:11

out there and very humid. Anyway, I'm

30:13

just kidding. Anyway, just to wrap up.

30:15

I don't know. I'm just trying to

30:17

be inspirational. I just, I hope for

30:19

you, depending on where you're at and

30:21

your journey, that you can realize that

30:24

there may be. a path for you

30:26

to be doing something that you're really

30:28

excited about. And that doesn't necessarily mean

30:30

it has to be your job that

30:32

you go get paid for, but a

30:34

hobby or whatever it is. It's like,

30:37

man, you have one life, it's relatively

30:39

short, do what you can to do

30:41

things that bring you joy and that

30:43

maybe make the world a better place

30:45

even in a small way. So, with

30:47

that, I am going to start sweating

30:50

now because the power is off and

30:52

the AC is off, and I'm going

30:54

to say goodbye to you for now.

30:56

from Vietnam. I think that I will

30:58

produce maybe an episode about the bird

31:00

life of Vietnam and Cambodia or Southeast

31:03

Asia, something like that. So stay tuned

31:05

for that. I hope you enjoyed this

31:07

kind of off the cuff, just me

31:09

rambling episode. It's very different from my

31:11

normal MO and I feel like I'm

31:13

definitely outside of my comfort zone and

31:16

I don't have my process all. you

31:18

know, sort of the kinks worked out.

31:20

This is all very experimental, so I

31:22

hope I can make it something that

31:24

you find interesting. If you're, if you

31:26

hate it, if you're like, oh this

31:28

guy, this sucks, don't worry, it's only

31:31

going to be just for a couple

31:33

months, and then after that, it'll be

31:35

back to our usual programming, okay? So,

31:37

hang in there, you can do it,

31:39

and I'm just gonna sign off now,

31:41

and I'll talk to you later, peace.