0:00

This is the second studio hosted by

0:02

the Architecture and Design Office Fame. My

0:04

name is David Lee and with me

0:06

is Marina Board Darrow-Nay. The two of

0:08

us are architects, partners at the office,

0:10

and of course, host of the show,

0:12

and today our guest is Christine Williamson.

0:14

Christine is a building scientist. She's

0:16

also a professor at Virginia Tech

0:18

and the founder of Building Science

0:21

Fight Club on Instagram. Yes, and

0:23

in architects listening, you probably know

0:25

who she has already. If you don't,

0:27

then what you're doing. With

0:29

Christine, we talk about how

0:32

she became a building scientist,

0:34

architecture school. We talk about

0:37

building science itself, of course,

0:39

and she shares some stories

0:41

of water leaks that she

0:44

was hired to solve as

0:46

a forensic building scientist, I

0:49

guess you call it. And then

0:51

we do talk about the LA

0:53

fires, and specifically. how roofs can be

0:56

designed and retrofitted to be much more

0:58

fire resilient. And that was very, very

1:00

fascinating. And it does not have to

1:02

be expensive. Yes, it's very, very interesting.

1:04

And I think she had some other anecdotes

1:07

as well. The hour and a half

1:09

or whatever it was, blew by, incredibly fast.

1:11

So we will probably continue the conversation if

1:13

she can make time for us. And I

1:16

think you guys are really going to really

1:18

going to enjoy it. Yeah, very good conversation.

1:20

I'm sure all of you out

1:22

there would enjoy. sponsors. Would you

1:24

have to get as much faster?

1:27

Yes. IPX has you covered. IPX

1:29

lets you seamlessly transform laser scans

1:31

into LED 300 BIM and CAD

1:33

files. Whether you've got your 3D

1:35

scans already or need the full

1:38

laser scanning service, IPX offers instant

1:40

pricing and order tracking for scan

1:42

to BIM services on any project

1:44

no matter the size or complexity.

1:46

Once a building scan is complete

1:49

IPX diverse detailed BIM CAD, 360

1:51

virtual tours and mature takeoffs

1:53

in their platform, where you

1:55

can... view, share export, query

1:57

and quantify areas, floors and

1:59

materials. out the IPX link in

2:01

our show notes. Managing design projects

2:03

and specifications can be challenging, but

2:05

programmer makes it effortless. Trusted by

2:08

top interior design firms in over

2:10

75 countries, it's the world's most

2:12

elegant software for interior designers. With

2:14

its suite of powerful tools, you

2:16

will experience smoother client interactions with

2:18

less back and forth, saving you

2:20

hours of admin work and making

2:22

your job more enjoyable. Stop struggling

2:24

and start thriving with the seriously

2:26

powerful programmer. Click the link in

2:28

our show. and get 25% of

2:30

an annual subscription with code second

2:32

studio at checkout. You will wonder

2:34

how you ever worked without it.

2:36

This is the second studio with

2:38

myself, Marina, and our guest, Christine.

2:40

Here we go. I'm from Toronto,

2:42

Canada. And, um... a lot of

2:44

people, like most of the people

2:46

who are really good building scientists

2:48

are Canadian. So maybe it's already

2:50

in the blood and that's what

2:52

my father does. So like doubly

2:54

in the blood in Canada and

2:56

then more directly through him. But

2:58

growing up I wasn't super thoughtful

3:00

about what I would do as

3:02

an adult. I guess I sort

3:04

of assumed I would just work

3:06

in business, whatever that meant. I

3:08

didn't really understand what that was.

3:10

And then when I got, like

3:12

in college even, I'm sort of

3:14

embarrassed that I was so casual,

3:16

I guess, about it. But I

3:18

was, I didn't really think about

3:20

it that much. And when I

3:22

graduated, I worked for a little

3:24

while. in marketing and product development

3:26

for a big grocery chain in

3:28

Texas. And it was a different,

3:31

it was just a very different

3:33

time. The economy was really, really

3:35

good and it just seemed like

3:37

the world was so big and

3:39

that young people could get a

3:41

chance to do a whole lot

3:43

of different things in their lives.

3:45

And so it just felt low

3:47

pressure in some ways. So I

3:49

had a job offer in New

3:51

York City, I had a job

3:53

offer in Denver, I think. from,

3:55

and then one in Texas. And

3:57

I took the one in Texas

3:59

because I'd never been to Texas.

4:01

So I did that. That seems

4:03

like a good reason to make

4:05

decisions, right? Like, I've never been

4:07

there. Let's check it out. And

4:09

I really liked it. That was

4:11

the first time I was in

4:13

Texas. I liked Texas a lot.

4:15

I was in San Antonio, which

4:17

is a city I love. I

4:19

grew to really love it. But

4:21

the job was not a good

4:23

fit for me. I was terrible

4:25

at it. And so I was

4:27

a little lost for a little

4:29

while. I didn't know what to

4:31

do. And I ended up going

4:33

back to school for architecture. I

4:35

sort of even stumbled into that.

4:37

I had moved to Boston and

4:39

was finding it hard to meet

4:41

people there. So I signed up

4:43

for a class at Boston Architectural

4:45

College, the BAC. And it was

4:47

really just to meet people. It

4:49

was the classes were in the

4:51

evenings because they're... sort of concept

4:54

is to have students work full-time

4:56

while they're taking classes. So you

4:58

could just take a class there

5:00

and that's what I did. I

5:02

just took a class to meet

5:04

people. I always kind of liked

5:06

architecture and I really really liked

5:08

it. And I had a friend

5:10

who encouraged me at the time,

5:12

like if this is something that

5:14

you like, if you like this

5:16

industry, you should think about what...

5:18

you would need to do to

5:20

grow in the industry. And it

5:22

was actually, it was really good

5:24

advice because it wasn't so specific.

5:26

It wasn't like you should decide

5:28

right now what you want to

5:30

do, but more like decide if

5:32

you like this industry and what

5:34

sort of credentials, if any, you

5:36

might need to participate in the

5:38

industry. And so I thought, well,

5:40

I probably ought to have an

5:42

architecture degree. And I guess I

5:44

sort of early on had a

5:46

sense I wouldn't. I'll

5:48

necessarily practice as a traditional design

5:51

architect, but anyway, and then I

5:53

didn't, but that's how it started,

5:55

is I thought, you know, I

5:57

like this. I like the building

5:59

industry. I like the design industry.

6:01

I'd like to, I'd like to

6:03

be in it. And so I

6:06

enrolled as a full-time student the

6:08

following opportunity. I had the following

6:10

semester and became an architect. Fascinating.

6:12

What were the classes you initially

6:14

took at BAC that hooked you?

6:16

Do they? I don't even remember.

6:19

I just liked it. So whatever

6:21

it was, I liked it. Yeah.

6:23

I had a really good I

6:25

had a really good early first

6:27

studio experience. Although it's funny the

6:29

way different people remember things. So

6:32

I'm still friends as I'm sure

6:34

many of your listeners are and

6:36

studios in intense experience. So I'm

6:38

still friends with my classmates from

6:40

that. And they remember it a

6:42

little differently than I did. And

6:45

they were like, you liked that?

6:47

That was terrible. It was the

6:49

worst part of our schooling. Anyway,

6:51

but I do. I really liked

6:53

it. And it's sort of funny

6:55

now. Our accountant has the same

6:58

name as my first studio professor,

7:00

which took some getting used to.

7:02

So I'd get extra emails from

7:04

him in my inbox. And like

7:06

just my heart would stop for

7:08

a second. It's fine. Yeah, it's

7:10

a flashback to how many decades

7:13

ago. Oh, did I miss an

7:15

assignment? All the all-nighters and the

7:17

crazy, crazy questions you don't know

7:19

the answer to. What does this

7:21

building want to be, you know?

7:23

Yeah, what is the essence of

7:26

life via the building? The meaning

7:28

of universe. Yeah. That's a good

7:30

way to describe this studio though.

7:32

Going back, so... It's interesting you

7:34

said that building science and building

7:36

scientists, I think was a term

7:39

to use, is much more established

7:41

in Canada. And I will say

7:43

that all of my experiences in

7:45

the United States, mostly professionally and

7:47

then studying here and teaching here

7:49

and all that kind of stuff,

7:52

the term building scientists is not

7:54

something I I don't think I've

7:56

ever really heard outside of you

7:58

and the Building Science Fight Club.

8:00

But it's just not a, it's

8:02

not really, it's not described that.

8:05

We have like, you know, practice

8:07

courses about practice where you learn

8:09

about envelopes and whatnot, but like

8:11

the phrase building science is, I

8:13

don't remember being heavily used. Is

8:15

it more common in Canada? Is

8:17

it a profession in Canada? I

8:20

mean, it would seem to be.

8:22

entirely carved out as a profession

8:24

on its own. They have some

8:26

building science programs, but typically building

8:28

scientists are engineers. So their background

8:30

is in engineering. But really, you

8:33

learn this stuff through apprenticeship. So

8:35

in that sense, it is similar

8:37

to architecture. But most people who

8:39

pursue it, usually pursue it through

8:41

engineering. I would say it's unusual

8:43

to pursue it through architecture. And

8:46

it goes by different names. So

8:48

enclosure consultant or like enclosure specialist

8:50

or envelope specialist is maybe a

8:52

little bit more common or forensic

8:54

engineer, forensic architecture, depending on where

8:56

you are, what's common in your

8:59

area. But a lot of it

9:01

is, I mean, it's a little

9:03

bit similar to architecture in this

9:05

sense also in that people don't

9:07

really know what it is or

9:09

they expect the profession to already

9:12

be covered by. by whatever other

9:14

professionals involved in the project. So

9:16

they think like, oh, like, doesn't

9:18

your architect already know all this?

9:20

Or doesn't your engineer already know

9:22

all this? Or it's just that

9:24

people haven't thought about how complex

9:27

buildings actually are to begin with.

9:29

They just, it's not something that

9:31

they think about. It's like, fish

9:33

don't know they're wet. We're in

9:35

buildings all the time. We're not

9:37

really thinking very much about building

9:40

systems. They just work. Yeah, yeah,

9:42

yeah, then people notice. So maybe

9:44

on that note, so the what

9:46

is. What is a building scientist?

9:48

I know you've kind of talked

9:50

about adjacent titles or different titles

9:53

for it, but what is a

9:55

building scientist to generally speaking? Well,

9:57

I think there's actually some sort

9:59

of controversy, is too strong a

10:01

word, but I don't think there's

10:03

a super formal definition, but I

10:06

describe what I do as. Specializing

10:08

in the layers that separate the

10:10

inside from the outside and the

10:12

different materials that make up those

10:14

layers, what order we put them

10:16

in, how they're installed, and then

10:19

secondarily how the enclosure, the layers

10:21

that separate the inside from the

10:23

outside, interact with the mechanical systems

10:25

in our buildings. So... mainly how

10:27

we heat cool, control humidity and

10:29

ventilation. So that dual nature, how

10:31

those two things connect to each

10:34

other. That's how I would describe

10:36

it to maybe other architects, to

10:38

other people in the profession. I

10:40

think, well, I don't know that

10:42

I would describe it at all.

10:44

Depends on how long I want

10:47

to talk to them. I'll just

10:49

say, I'm an architect or I

10:51

teach. Sometimes they say I'm a

10:53

forensic architect, so I specialize in

10:55

what happens when things go wrong

10:57

with buildings and how to fix

11:00

them and understanding that with the

11:02

understanding that buildings are, they're not...

11:04

they're not just sculptures. Like we

11:06

do things inside the buildings and

11:08

the things that we do in

11:10

the buildings is valuable to us.

11:13

So it's not enough to just

11:15

identify what went wrong with the

11:17

building because it's like, okay, well,

11:19

yeah, okay, we should have done

11:21

that other thing that we didn't

11:23

do. But now one, now the

11:26

hospital is open and we've got

11:28

patients, what do we do? And

11:30

coming up with a solution to

11:32

how to fix a building with

11:34

minimal disruption to whatever the building

11:36

is being used for. is a

11:38

different kind of challenge and that

11:41

takes a different kind of creative.

11:43

And then I'll tell people that

11:45

on the front end I help

11:47

to avoid those types of problems.

11:49

So that's usually how I describe

11:51

it to lay people. Fascinating. I

11:54

mean it makes sense and it

11:56

also reminds me that, you know,

11:58

talking about architecture school and practicing

12:00

architecture. the things that at my

12:02

experience you learn in architecture school

12:04

tends to be more design oriented

12:07

and less about systems you do

12:09

learn about systems and the layers

12:11

you described but in a very

12:13

broad and generic way yeah and

12:15

as a student who's you know

12:17

19 years old it's it's kind

12:20

of hard to comprehend or put

12:22

them into practice because even if

12:24

you draw a wall section as

12:26

a student it doesn't have a

12:28

lot of meaning to you because

12:30

it's just foreign lines and you

12:33

understand the basics principles but you're

12:35

not doing it yet. And when

12:37

you get when you get into

12:39

practice as you know we're working

12:41

at an office suddenly there's all

12:43

this technical stuff and you're like

12:45

wait what order do we put

12:48

things in based on what climate

12:50

and some offices have a lot

12:52

of expertise in that in that

12:54

space because they've existed for a

12:56

long time or whatever else. But

12:58

there's also a lot of kind

13:01

of inventing that takes place from

13:03

project to project, even if the

13:05

core principles are the same of

13:07

how we insulate and keeping water

13:09

out and letting air flow and

13:11

whatever else, still that facade layer

13:14

can be sometimes quite challenging to

13:16

design because it's different. Or design

13:18

detail, you know, if you're lucky

13:20

enough not to repeat the same

13:22

stuff over and over, like you

13:24

work out a really nice detail,

13:27

but you still have to meet

13:29

those more like scientific criteria of

13:31

how the building performs, and it's,

13:33

you know. It's kind of a

13:35

risk in some ways. Yeah. It

13:37

is. It's it that the risk

13:40

is exactly the right word for

13:42

it. And I find that when

13:44

I've now that I'm now that

13:46

I'm teaching more, I find that

13:48

speaking in terms of risk is

13:50

really helpful for people to understand.

13:52

And it also sort of helps

13:55

them motivate them to want to

13:57

understand. this better in that the

13:59

less you know the more conservative

14:01

you have to be with your

14:03

designs. The more you know the

14:05

science and the better kind of

14:08

context you have for understanding that

14:10

risk, the more bold you can

14:12

be with your designs. The more

14:14

you can depart from what you

14:16

did last time, safely, you know,

14:18

assuming you actually care about your

14:21

own professional reputation and your client's,

14:23

you know, safety and comfort and

14:25

budget. But anyway, that's, I think

14:27

that ends up being. It's what

14:29

I try to tell my students

14:31

anyway, to make this a little

14:34

bit more appealing to them, is

14:36

the better you understand this, the

14:38

more bold you can be with

14:40

your designs, the more creative you

14:42

can be. It's not a hindrance

14:44

to creativity, it's actually an age

14:47

to creativity. If you understand your

14:49

constraints better. Yeah, that's well put.

14:51

And there's definitely, I think for

14:53

most architects, there's the side of

14:55

the brain where when you're working

14:57

through a detail, either on your

14:59

own or with the consultant or

15:02

someone in the office, it's kind

15:04

of satisfying. It's like puzzle solving

15:06

in a sense, but kind of

15:08

more complex because the image is

15:10

not yet defined for you. I

15:12

was wondering, so. What kinds are

15:15

you teach, but you also practice

15:17

as a building scientist and a

15:19

consultant. Do you mostly work with

15:21

larger offices, small offices? Is there

15:23

a variety of projects and offices?

15:25

It's a variety and it's changed

15:28

a little bit to... as other

15:30

things in my life have changed

15:32

as well. So right now I'm

15:34

not doing any formal consulting. I

15:36

just had a whole bunch of

15:38

kids and so I just got

15:41

back into, it just started working

15:43

this past fall, I took a

15:45

job as a professor at Virginia

15:47

Tech and so that's my entry

15:49

back into the workforce and I'm

15:51

really just focusing on teaching for

15:54

the time being. But prior to

15:56

that I was a consultant and

15:58

I ended. up working with big

16:00

firms and small firms and mostly

16:02

on residential projects when I was

16:04

consulting by myself as in working.

16:06

working as a sole practitioner. Prior

16:09

to that, it's sort of funny,

16:11

it was completely different. It was

16:13

mostly much bigger projects. Occasionally we'd

16:15

have a house, but it would

16:17

have to be a very, very

16:19

large house. And the reason for

16:22

that really is that bigger firms

16:24

working on bigger projects, when they

16:26

hire an enclosure consultant to do

16:28

a peer review of their drawing,

16:30

say, they typically want somebody that

16:32

can work with them on all

16:35

of their projects because consistency is

16:37

a risk reduction. consistency in your

16:39

approach to things is itself a

16:41

risk reduction method. So there's actually

16:43

a lot of right ways of

16:45

doing things, or the right way

16:48

of approaching things. There's a bunch

16:50

of right ways. There's a bunch

16:52

of wrong ways too, obviously, but

16:54

there's actually a lot of right

16:56

ways as well, and it helps

16:58

to... if you have a larger

17:01

team, to have somebody who can

17:03

work with you on all of

17:05

your projects and give you a

17:07

consistent approach, so that when you

17:09

have staff that work on different

17:11

kinds of projects, they can be

17:13

hearing the same thing in the

17:16

same way and approach things the

17:18

same way. I just couldn't do

17:20

that when I started my own

17:22

firm and was working for myself.

17:24

I couldn't. I couldn't handle a

17:26

portfolio of 20 projects a year

17:29

or something like that. So I

17:31

ended up working, switching to work

17:33

with smaller firms doing primarily residential

17:35

work. And that was a really

17:37

fun transition for me actually because

17:39

I think I find residential work

17:42

more rewarding in a lot of

17:44

ways and more challenging because you

17:46

have to in residential design. you

17:48

have to deal with everything. The

17:50

architects do so much. They have

17:52

to understand all of the systems,

17:55

whereas in commercial design there's budget

17:57

for and the expectation that you

17:59

have different consulates. handling different stuff

18:01

so you can sort of mentally

18:03

kind of check out on stuff

18:05

be like okay I don't need

18:08

to understand the elevator right there's

18:10

consultants there's people who design that

18:12

stuff I don't need to know

18:14

about that But you can't really

18:16

do something similar in residential design.

18:18

You have to understand the, and

18:20

the architect has to understand everything.

18:23

Now I personally don't, like I

18:25

don't need to understand that stuff,

18:27

but the same concept does apply.

18:29

I need to understand a lot

18:31

more about that, the integration between

18:33

building systems and the enclosure than

18:36

I do with commercial construction. There's

18:38

just a, there's just a stronger,

18:40

the lines dividing. People's areas of

18:42

responsibility are much more rigid in

18:44

bigger jobs than smaller jobs. Even

18:46

big residential projects. You do have

18:49

to have to understand a lot

18:51

more. And so I find it

18:53

more challenging and more fun. So

18:55

when you were doing concerted work

18:57

on residential on your own, were

18:59

you usually brought in before the

19:02

building was built to make sure

19:04

it was going to be built

19:06

in detail right? Or were you

19:08

also often brought in after the

19:10

building had failed? Both, but I

19:12

preferred working on avoiding problems at

19:15

the outset. I had done a

19:17

lot of forensic work prior to

19:19

that and I was sort of

19:21

a little bit burned out, a

19:23

little tired of tired of it.

19:25

And a lot of it is

19:27

sort of the same stuff. It's,

19:30

so you, so what's the biggest,

19:32

yeah, what's the biggest, you know,

19:34

pitfalls, like the things that we

19:36

all do wrong, you know, buildings,

19:38

we should get right. Well, what

19:40

do you mean by the week?

19:43

I'll tell you either. You don't

19:45

want to talk about it. So

19:47

most of it is, is leaks.

19:49

So you could start if you

19:51

were working. So I started working

19:53

for a big consulting firm and

19:56

like. 80% of the problems were

19:58

leaks. So it was doing water

20:00

testing to isolate the pathway that

20:02

the water like water. was taking

20:04

to get into the building and

20:06

looking at where, how it was

20:09

built and what that pathway could

20:11

be. I would be pretty happy

20:13

to never do a water test

20:15

again in my entire life. I

20:17

did enough water tests. I mean,

20:19

sometimes they were fine. I did

20:22

one at or just interesting. Like

20:24

I did one at LAX actually

20:26

here in Los Angeles, so their

20:28

air traffic control tower was leaking

20:30

and that was an interesting. There

20:32

were interesting constraints with that and

20:34

it was and also LAX is

20:37

just cool airport. The design is

20:39

cool. So there was some interesting

20:41

construction elements at play and practically

20:43

speaking like getting a boom lift

20:45

on an air like at an

20:47

airport that's looking like where planes

20:50

are taking off and landing. That

20:52

was a fun kind of job.

20:54

often they were just something is

20:56

leaking like go go find it

20:58

so anyway it was a little

21:00

bit less interesting the preventing problems

21:03

was I just I found it

21:05

I was ready to focus on

21:07

that I guess we just go

21:09

through different stages of being interested

21:11

in different things so I kind

21:13

of I kind of was drawn

21:16

a little bit more to that

21:18

the friends I shouldn't make it

21:20

sound that bad like there were

21:22

other interesting problems there was I

21:24

worked at an opera house once

21:26

that was just unpredictably smelling like

21:29

sewage. and I learned a lot

21:31

through the investigation. I was working

21:33

with two colleagues that I find

21:35

really fun. And that one was

21:37

that was a really really interesting

21:39

investigation. I was working with two

21:41

colleagues that I find really fun

21:44

and that I respect a lot

21:46

and that know a lot of

21:48

stuff and I learned a lot

21:50

through the investigation. Odor investigations are

21:52

really hard. You have to end

21:54

up kind of pressurizing. the building

21:57

in different ways and playing with

21:59

different pressure relationships to try to

22:01

recreate the condition, which is the

22:03

smell. So you walk around. trying

22:05

to, does it smell bad yet

22:07

to you yet, you know? So

22:10

it was sort of a fun,

22:12

that was a fun investigation. It

22:14

was also one where I really

22:16

was worried that we wouldn't figure

22:18

it out. It was, I always

22:20

do that, any time I get

22:23

a job for a failure investigation,

22:25

I'm like, oh my, like, what

22:27

if I don't? What if I

22:29

don't solve it? Like what if,

22:31

you know, they've paid me all

22:33

this money and you spend money

22:36

to go out and investigate it

22:38

either way. But what if I

22:40

don't figure it out? And that

22:42

was the one that I think

22:44

came closest to what if we

22:46

don't, what if we don't get

22:48

this? But we figured it out.

22:51

It was, we were there, we

22:53

were on site three days and

22:55

we figured out the afternoon of

22:57

the third day. So what if

22:59

we, so what was causing the

23:01

leak? Oh my gosh, so it

23:04

was a really interesting building. We

23:06

had to rule a lot of

23:08

stuff out first. It was in,

23:10

I guess I can say, where

23:12

it was written about in the

23:14

paper, so I guess I could

23:17

say about it. Anyway, it was

23:19

in Aspen, Colorado, and Aspen has

23:21

a lot of like abandoned silver

23:23

mines under the... city. So we

23:25

thought our hypothesis was that this

23:27

opera house was somehow, it had

23:30

like a substantial below grade portion,

23:32

and that it was somehow connected

23:34

to some sort of mine shaft

23:36

or something, and it was pulling

23:38

sewer gases from somewhere. That was

23:40

our hypothesis going in. So we

23:43

had to rule all of that

23:45

out, which was very time consuming,

23:47

and it turned out not to

23:49

be that. It was such a

23:51

simple problem. It was... the air

23:53

intake for one of their air

23:55

handlers was located on a roof

23:58

and it was not like geographically

24:00

close to a plumbing vent stack

24:02

but when the wind blew a

24:04

certain way off of the mountains

24:06

it would blow the vent stack

24:08

odors right into the air intake.

24:11

And we figured it out, by

24:13

the way, with this great guy,

24:15

fantastic colleague who we brought. in

24:17

the job from he was outside

24:19

of our firm, but we brought

24:21

him in to help because he

24:24

happened to live in Crested Butte.

24:26

And he came in and he

24:28

illustrated it by borrowing a cigarette

24:30

from the building engineer lighting the

24:32

cigarette and holding it. He was

24:34

very tall. So he held it

24:37

right at where the top of

24:39

the event stack was. And like

24:41

30 seconds later, we smelled it

24:43

inside the control room of the

24:45

audio. I don't know how. how

24:47

to define these spaces, the audio,

24:49

visual control room of the opera

24:52

house or whatever, the place where

24:54

they control the sound and the

24:56

lights. And I mean it was

24:58

like instantaneous, it was really, really

25:00

incredible. Also sort of an interesting

25:02

reminder at how kind of pungent

25:05

cigarette smoke is. and measure pressure

25:07

relationships in buildings. It was a

25:09

very complicated investigation and we ended

25:11

up having to essentially, we demonstrated

25:13

this to our client with a

25:15

cigarette, a lit cigarette, like that

25:18

was it. And anyway, after three

25:20

days of work and it was

25:22

just a lit cigarette and a

25:24

plumbing bench back. Go figure. If

25:26

it works, it works. But that

25:28

also is a reminder that the

25:31

complexity of buildings, especially, I mean,

25:33

houses can be very complex for

25:35

sure, but larger structures, there's just

25:37

like a hundred or a thousand

25:39

things to try and coordinate. And

25:41

sometimes things don't end up working

25:44

out great in the end. And

25:46

it's like who could have possibly

25:48

predicted this thing. you know, causing

25:50

an inconvenience, like you wouldn't, you'd

25:52

be impossible to know. It's impossible

25:54

to plan for some things that

25:56

don't go, you know, totally correct.

25:59

So speaking of that, you want

26:01

to know what the problem was

26:03

that the air traffic control at

26:05

LAX. This is I'm separated by

26:07

enough time I think I feel

26:09

okay sharing it but it was

26:12

crazy speaking of complexity so what

26:14

had happened was the they had

26:16

this leak in the control tower

26:18

and the leak started occurred to

26:20

them or they noticed it after

26:22

they had re-roofed the building and

26:25

so they assumed that the roof

26:27

the like the roofers had done

26:29

something wrong when they replaced the

26:31

roof. And so they struggled, like

26:33

they tried to, they had the

26:35

roofers come out and look at

26:38

it, nothing was wrong, like there

26:40

was, they just, they assumed it

26:42

was the roof and couldn't, couldn't

26:44

really figure it out. And the

26:46

roof was like this, in fairness,

26:48

it was a pretty complicated like

26:51

kind of undulating roof and had

26:53

curves and stuff to it. So

26:55

it was a complicated roof. But

26:57

that's what they assumed the problem

26:59

was. Oh, and they had, I

27:01

forgot this part, they had like

27:03

mirror leaks at two corners of

27:06

the building that were architecturally symmetrical,

27:08

right? So whatever was going on,

27:10

when I heard that, I was

27:12

like, okay, well, it's very likely

27:14

then that. whatever architecturally happened on

27:16

one side was repeated on the

27:19

other side, which made me kind

27:21

of think it wasn't the roof,

27:23

because that would be a weird

27:25

thing to sort of have two

27:27

holes in your roof at the

27:29

same, at the same spot. That

27:32

would be weird. Anyway, what ended

27:34

up happening was we went to

27:36

all this trouble to get boom

27:38

lifts up to do a water

27:40

test at the location that was

27:42

leaking, which was up high near

27:45

the wall to roof interface. And

27:47

I ended up going up there

27:49

and before I even turned on

27:51

the water, like I looked at

27:53

it and there was just a

27:55

hole in the building. So it's

27:58

like just open. Like I can

28:00

put my hand through it. Like

28:02

if you're a bird, you can.

28:04

You could fly in there. I'm

28:06

surprised if it didn't fly in

28:08

there, actually. And it was where

28:10

glazing on, it was at a

28:13

corner of the building. So it

28:15

was where glazing on one part

28:17

of the facade met metal panels

28:19

on the adjacent elevation. So they

28:21

met at a corner. And nobody

28:23

had coordinated that connection really well.

28:26

like actually open and when they

28:28

reroofed they had this gutter on

28:30

the roof that ended up directing

28:32

water right at like into gosh

28:35

oh I forgot to mention I

28:37

guess the building was was much

28:39

older so sure this had been

28:41

in there like they asked well

28:44

how long has it been like

28:46

I guess since the beginning like

28:48

30 years and it wasn't until

28:51

they reroofed that this this happened

28:53

and Two other, maybe interesting things

28:55

about this project. One was that

28:58

I bid it as a fixed

29:00

fee project. So, which is a

29:02

little bit risky, but I hate billing

29:04

hourly. I'm sure. It's like, to me,

29:06

that is like the worst part of

29:08

architecture is billing hourly and I

29:10

just say, oh, I loathe it.

29:12

So, this one is a fixed

29:14

fee job where it's also very

29:16

risky, right? You sometimes get completely

29:18

burned by this. Well this we

29:20

figured out what the problem was

29:22

I'd been on site 20 minutes

29:24

and hadn't done a single water

29:26

test and also it was kind

29:29

of dangerous like we're at an

29:31

airport this was a the boom

29:33

lift was high this would have been

29:35

like I don't know like 40 feet up

29:37

like it was just not this was

29:39

not a this wasn't an easy this

29:41

wasn't like somebody's home in

29:44

the suburbs or something right right and

29:46

so I had to kind of Ask

29:48

myself, do I want to continue

29:50

to do a test, even though

29:52

I'm pretty sure I know what

29:54

this is, to sort of make

29:56

it look more sciencey? Or do

29:58

I want to get down? I mean,

30:00

tell them you have a hole

30:02

in your building, like fix the

30:05

hole and we'll be okay. And

30:07

I ended up deciding I'm not

30:09

gonna do the show. I'm gonna

30:11

just tell them what the issue

30:13

is. Like, I'm pretty confident that

30:15

if I spray water at this

30:17

hole, water will get in the

30:20

building and that. I'm pretty sure

30:22

I don't need a test to

30:24

validate that. But I did go

30:26

to the other side and look

30:28

at the other side and there

30:30

was a hole on the other

30:33

side too. So it was the

30:35

same thing coordinated and that's why

30:37

they had these dual weeks. But

30:39

I had brought to do this

30:41

investigation, I needed another person and

30:43

everybody at the firm who normally

30:45

works on this was not available

30:48

to do it at the time

30:50

that we needed to get it

30:52

done. And so I asked one

30:54

of my classmates from my very

30:56

first studio or from I don't

30:58

know, she probably wasn't in my

31:01

first studio, but then I went

31:03

to architecture school with, and she

31:05

has her own firm with her

31:07

wife, but they had done some

31:09

graphic design work for our company,

31:11

so she was like technically an

31:13

employee, I guess, but not, that

31:16

wasn't her job to do these

31:18

investigations, she'd never done one before,

31:20

but I just needed another person,

31:22

and she's smart, so she came

31:24

out to help me, so she's

31:26

never done this before. And so

31:29

she was a little... I guess

31:31

a little, I don't know, but

31:33

for her first investigation is a

31:35

water leakage investigation at an air

31:37

traffic control tower at LAX. And

31:39

we solve it in, we figure

31:41

out what's going on in 20

31:44

minutes. And also people assume that

31:46

we were going to be there

31:48

all day. And we're in an

31:50

airport, our cell phones don't really

31:52

work, like at the air traffic,

31:54

they tell you to turn it

31:57

off at the air traffic control

31:59

portion, all this stuff. Anyway. So

32:01

we wrapped up. put the boom

32:03

lift down and took our hoses

32:05

and went to the beach. And

32:07

so I had a nice fun

32:09

time with an old friend at

32:12

the at the beach and we

32:14

had margaritas and then she took

32:16

the red eye back home she

32:18

was based in Boston I was

32:20

based in Dallas at the time

32:22

and that's funny oh and then

32:25

the second part I bid it

32:27

as a fixed fee project and

32:29

the FAA afterwards audited that job

32:31

and said because the report that

32:33

I did was like three pages

32:35

it was so short they said

32:37

well we don't think that this

32:40

report is worth what we paid

32:42

you and so we're not going

32:44

to pay you for it so

32:46

we think it's worth less so

32:48

they they reduced the fee Well,

32:50

they should have got it from

32:52

the roof and see the hold

32:55

before you and that's since that.

32:57

I mean, that's nonsense. I mean,

32:59

you're paid to do a big

33:01

deal. Like how big of the

33:03

issue you find, like, you know.

33:05

Right? Or how long the report

33:08

is? My first answer was like,

33:10

do you want me to? make

33:12

the figure for you. You should

33:14

have more pages. Yeah, you should

33:16

have written something about your beechickscursing

33:18

or something just to make it

33:20

longer. Those margarities were expensive, okay.

33:23

Yeah, that's right. That's right. So

33:25

that was one. Like you usually,

33:27

like, not usually, but like, you

33:29

usually don't come out ahead on

33:31

fixed fee projects. You come, you,

33:33

you come out, maybe modestly ahead,

33:36

or it's, you know. like pretty

33:38

close to what you estimated or

33:40

you lose money. And this one

33:42

was one where we came out

33:44

ahead because it was so simple.

33:46

But the client just didn't pay.

33:48

So yeah, they should have paid.

33:51

So I guess the lesson is

33:53

that if you have a. a

33:55

point of failure in your building,

33:57

and it's water intrusion. I guess

33:59

the first thing is to go

34:01

look to see if there's a

34:04

hole in the side of the

34:06

building. Fairness to them, it was

34:08

very hard to see. You had

34:10

to really get up to it.

34:12

Yeah. But yeah, look. And that's

34:14

actually, I tell my students this

34:16

too. They say, like, how do

34:19

you, doing these investigations seems really

34:21

mysterious to them. And I tell

34:23

them that really the most important

34:25

tool you have are your eyes.

34:27

And sometimes looking means making an

34:29

opening in the building so that

34:32

you can see how something was

34:34

put together. And like, that is.

34:36

just the biggest resource is look

34:38

to see how it was put

34:40

together and then put a hose

34:42

on it and see what happens

34:44

and play around play around with

34:47

with water to like rule stuff

34:49

out you know like you start

34:51

load high you mask off different

34:53

areas and you spray adjacent construction

34:55

and try to try to replicate

34:57

the leak but the biggest thing

35:00

that you're doing is you're just

35:02

looking and it's amazing how many

35:04

clients don't like they don't do

35:06

that first I think they're very

35:08

afraid of their own building. But

35:10

it's amazing if you just like

35:12

they don't they also don't like

35:15

to violate the building somehow they

35:17

feel like it's a violation Where

35:19

they put a hole in the

35:21

drywall take a look Yeah, yeah,

35:23

yeah, probing and whatnot. Yeah, they

35:25

don't want to do it But

35:28

once you once you do or

35:30

once I like if I tell

35:32

them that they have to then

35:34

they do it and then they're

35:36

like oh, okay. This is so

35:38

much better. Yes, it's much looking

35:40

is much better than guessing is

35:43

much better than guessing Going back

35:45

to your earlier point about commercial

35:47

versus residential is something that I've

35:49

seen as well and it's a

35:51

big difference in the two spaces.

35:53

Part of my career was working

35:56

at larger offices and we did

35:58

big buildings and those buildings you

36:00

have a whole team of people

36:02

and they're all experts and it's

36:04

it's actually really nice because you

36:06

can pick up a phone and

36:08

call someone and say like hey

36:11

you're the expert of the elevator

36:13

or the facade consultant or whatever

36:15

and and and figure it's the

36:17

residential space. is for the most

36:19

part, exactly as you described. It's

36:21

kind of the Wild West and

36:24

it's hard to find the right

36:26

experts. I mean, so in our

36:28

case, this is kind of a

36:30

tangent, but in our case, it's,

36:32

well, A, it's having projects that

36:34

are large enough to where it

36:36

makes sense to have a team

36:39

of experts, not even a full

36:41

team like you would have in

36:43

a commercial structure, but. But just

36:45

a few more people of consultants.

36:47

And then finding their good ones,

36:49

which tends to be sometimes harder

36:52

to do in residential, I feel

36:54

like, because it's not as systematized.

36:56

And then there is the whole

36:58

contractor aspect of residential, too. Like

37:00

you could have really great detail

37:02

and have it all worked out.

37:04

But the guy who's building it

37:07

is drilling through the waterproofing membrane.

37:09

When you install a rain screen,

37:11

you're like. Look ma'am, like you

37:13

completely missed the point. Or other

37:15

things that we've seen that, you

37:17

know, it's just, yeah. And now,

37:20

did a break for show sponsors?

37:22

Revit users, you have access to

37:24

a powerful new capability you might

37:26

not know about. Available with Revit

37:28

version 2023.1 onward, Autodesk Insight is

37:30

a next generation carbon analysis tool

37:32

that can help you make the

37:35

leap toward low carbon design. With

37:37

only a few clicks, Insight lets

37:39

you analyze, understand, and track the

37:41

embodied and operational carbon impact of

37:43

your design choices. You can then

37:45

visualize opportunities for energy efficiency and

37:48

carbon mitigation with its flexible dashboards,

37:50

helping you make more sustainable and

37:52

informed decisions. Check out the Insight

37:54

Link and our Show Notes to

37:56

learn more. This episode of the

37:58

second studio is brought to you

38:00

by BQE Corps, the all-in-one firm

38:03

management software built for architects. Design

38:05

by Architects for Architects, Corps helps

38:07

you track time effortlessly. manage projects

38:09

seamlessly and get paid faster. So

38:11

you can focus on design, not

38:13

spreadsheets. With powerful automation and real-time

38:16

insights, it's everything you need to

38:18

rent a smarter and more profitable

38:20

firm. See how BQE core can

38:22

transform your practice by clicking the

38:24

link in our show notes. But

38:26

getting to the big topic, which

38:28

is the opposite of water, I

38:31

was going to say, is, you

38:33

know, in LA there are these

38:35

horrendous fires that just kind of

38:37

swept across the city. And we've

38:39

been talking to a lot of

38:41

folks locally and not locally about

38:44

what can be done in terms

38:46

of rebuilding and that spans a

38:48

lot of different topics. but one

38:50

of them of course is when

38:52

we hopefully go to rebuild or

38:54

build new houses if folks can

38:56

make sure that they are more

38:59

fire resilient than they were and

39:01

a lot of the houses some

39:03

of the houses were newer in

39:05

the last maybe 15 10 10

39:07

years and a lot of the

39:09

houses were significantly older from the

39:11

80s 70s 60s 50 whatever and

39:14

I guess as an introduction to

39:16

that topic is is What are

39:18

in your mind some of the

39:20

key things that clients, builders, architects,

39:22

we should all be doing toward

39:24

this effort to create houses that

39:27

are more resilient than the ones

39:29

that were quickly burned up? Yeah,

39:31

I mean, some of it is

39:33

stuff that we can, I think

39:35

it's important to, let me back

39:37

up for a sec, I think

39:39

it's important to acknowledge that not

39:42

all of this is architectural. So

39:44

we're trying to use architecture to

39:46

help solve a problem that isn't

39:48

primarily, I don't even think, architectural.

39:50

So from a certain perspective, like

39:52

if you've got a massive fire,

39:55

there's going to be some things

39:57

that you could do to perhaps

39:59

reduce your risk, but if it's

40:01

coming, it's coming. In the same

40:03

way, like sort of, I think

40:05

about it a little bit with

40:07

like tornado resistance. I mean, if

40:10

there's a tornado and you're in

40:12

the path, you're in the path,

40:14

you're in the path, like you

40:16

have a basement. But there's, so

40:18

there's some things that you can

40:20

do to reduce the spread, but

40:23

there's, and I'm speaking not as

40:25

an expert in fire, like in

40:27

wildfires or anything like that. So

40:29

from my understanding, there were certain

40:31

things that were just truly, that

40:33

made this fire a little bit

40:35

different and in some ways kind

40:38

of unavoidable. That said, not all

40:40

fires are like. that and there's

40:42

all kinds of stuff that we

40:44

can do architecturally to reduce risk

40:46

from stuff that's sort of intuitive

40:48

that I think your listeners already

40:51

certainly already know about people already

40:53

know about like how you landscape

40:55

your property for instance will have

40:57

an impact on how easy fires

40:59

are to spread but I think

41:01

one of the things that's less

41:03

well understood is how we construct

41:06

our roofs in particular. And is

41:08

that what I want to start

41:10

off talking about? I know. I

41:12

realized as it was talking, introducing

41:14

the subject, I'm like, there's like

41:16

six different ways we could go

41:19

right now. Yeah, there's a bunch

41:21

of different ways. I think, I

41:23

think before I say what I

41:25

want to say about roofs, I

41:27

think that there's a, there's one

41:29

big misconception, and that is that

41:31

in order to fight fires, that,

41:34

can burn. That is not true.

41:36

We're actually quite good at designing,

41:38

using materials that can burn by

41:40

themselves in ways that are resistant

41:42

to these types of events. So

41:44

it's not true that in order

41:47

to make a fire-resistant home we

41:49

have to build out of like

41:51

only concrete or I saw some

41:53

some sort of early... coverage of

41:55

this in the press that was

41:57

talking about like not using wood

41:59

anymore. You can build a wood-framed

42:02

house that that is pretty resistant

42:04

to fire and certainly a lot

42:06

safer than a lot of buildings

42:08

that like are existing buildings. Like

42:10

we know how to do some

42:12

things now. So I think the

42:15

roof component is something that I

42:17

happen to know a lot about

42:19

and I recognize that is very

42:21

significant, but it's not the only

42:23

factor. The broad strokes of this

42:25

are that roofs are typically, in

42:27

residential roofs, are typically vented. And

42:30

what that means is that we

42:32

allow air to come in at

42:34

the softets and to be released

42:36

at the ridge. So if you

42:38

think of a house the way

42:40

a child would draw it, just

42:43

like a triangle. It comes in

42:45

at the sort of... the bottom

42:47

of the bottom edges of the

42:49

triangle collects moisture on the underside

42:51

of the roof and then escapes

42:53

at the apex of the triangle

42:55

through event through openings that we

42:58

provide at the at the ridge

43:00

at the apex so why so

43:02

for folks who are are let's

43:04

assume we're or the audience doesn't

43:06

know anything about building science why

43:08

would we need to vent that

43:11

space at all? What this is

43:13

is a moisture management strategy. So

43:15

addicts will get moist. And so

43:17

if we think of the house,

43:19

we'll take another quick step back.

43:21

And actually, before I get into

43:23

this, I will say that where

43:26

we're headed with this, if you're

43:28

a listener that. understands this already,

43:30

stay, because there's something that I

43:32

bet you don't know yet about

43:34

this new way that we can

43:36

do stuff that's specific to California.

43:39

California in particular is poised to

43:41

be able to make some really,

43:43

I think, great changes that that

43:45

can't be made other places. California's

43:47

climate is uniquely suited to a

43:49

new type of moisture management strategy

43:51

and roofs that is much more

43:54

fire resistant and not that expensive

43:56

at all, actually, not more expensive

43:58

at all. But anyway, so that's

44:00

where we're going to end up.

44:02

Oh, you've teased us, that's good

44:04

jobs. Yeah, yeah. But to start,

44:07

that previously was not permitted by

44:09

the way. We didn't, the code

44:11

did not permit this before because

44:13

we didn't know about it before.

44:15

We had to figure this out

44:17

to figure this out. So anyway,

44:19

what we do is we've our

44:22

roofs to remove moisture from our

44:24

attics. So typically if you think

44:26

of the, if you think of

44:28

a house, the way a child

44:30

would draw it like a square

44:32

with a triangle on top. We

44:35

intuitively know that we have to

44:37

deal with moisture that comes from

44:39

the outside of our buildings, typically

44:41

in the form of rain or

44:43

groundwater. What we think less about

44:45

is about the moisture that's generated

44:47

inside our house, from cooking, cleaning,

44:50

breathing. working out, doing whatever we

44:52

do inside our houses, we actually

44:54

emit a fair amount of moisture

44:56

and that moisture ends up escaping

44:58

into our attic through... imperfections in,

45:00

or I shouldn't say imperfections, because

45:03

that suggests it's an installation defect,

45:05

but through discontinuities in those layers

45:07

that separate the inside from the

45:09

outside, and moisture-laden air, it's usually

45:11

air, gets through these little imperfections,

45:13

so like the lights in your

45:15

ceiling, right? Those are holes. And

45:18

their pathways for warm moisture-related interior

45:20

air to get into the attic.

45:22

And in the winter time, Even

45:24

in California, even in mild climates,

45:26

they still have winters, there will

45:28

be cold surfaces in the roof,

45:30

and particularly the roof structure and

45:33

the underside of the triangle part

45:35

of the roof that we make

45:37

out of wood, and the surfaces

45:39

will be cold and will get

45:41

condensation on those surfaces from this

45:43

interior moisture, just like you get

45:46

condensation on a cold... can of

45:48

soda on a hot day, you'll

45:50

get that on cold surfaces in

45:52

your roof, even in mild climate.

45:54

So this is typically a wintertime

45:56

issue. And so we vent roofs

45:58

to remove that moisture. It is

46:01

a strategy that is really inexpensive

46:03

and it works in every climate.

46:05

It is unbelievably effective at dealing

46:07

with moisture. And this is... why

46:09

it's so popular. So not expensive,

46:11

works in every climate. You can

46:14

see why it's really popular. The

46:16

downside to this is obvious based

46:18

on how we started this conversation,

46:20

but that if we open up

46:22

our roofs, the underside of our

46:24

roofs here, our addicts to air.

46:26

to flush out that moisture, we're

46:29

also opening them up or permitting

46:31

the entry of flying like embers.

46:33

To me, this was sort of

46:35

an academic discussion prior to really

46:37

seeing the coverage of the Los

46:39

Angeles fires. And I think you

46:42

probably saw it also, but like...

46:44

I don't know. I thought of

46:46

embers as like occasionally sparks off

46:48

of a campfire or something. I

46:50

didn't understand how insane it is

46:52

when there's a real wildfire going

46:54

on. Like the embers are like

46:57

fireflies. They're everywhere. Yeah. Yeah. It's

46:59

like rain. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, that

47:01

was something that I found really

47:03

arresting about the, and very sobering

47:05

about the fires, but those can

47:07

get sucked into a roof and

47:10

into an attic and ignite the

47:12

wood, the insulation, all the stuff

47:14

that's in there, and then you

47:16

lose your house. Like it's just,

47:18

it's kind of over. Once the

47:20

fire starts in your eye, it's

47:22

over. And basically, I mean, with

47:25

the ventilation in the sulfide and

47:27

the ridge of the roof, you're

47:29

kind of creating... a fireplace in

47:31

some ways, right? Like you're creating

47:33

an air chamber so you just

47:35

you have that spark in there

47:38

and it functions the same except

47:40

it's not made of masonry. So

47:42

it's just going to, you know,

47:44

go up in flames. Exactly, exactly.

47:46

The, we don't have to vent

47:48

roofs though, it's just the easiest,

47:50

least expensive way of dealing with

47:53

that moisture. the alternative and I

47:55

should have I should have added

47:57

here that it think again of

47:59

the house with the square and

48:01

the triangle, the way a child

48:03

would draw it, we insulate in

48:06

these vented, like vented roof conditions

48:08

or vented addicts, we insulate on

48:10

the flat. So homeowners will go

48:12

up into their, into their addicts

48:14

that are typically unconditioned. So it's

48:16

storage space. There'll be a little

48:18

attic hatch and you climb up

48:21

there and you can see the

48:23

insulation is like loose fill insulation

48:25

or bat insulation and it's just

48:27

laid, loose laid on top of

48:29

the ceiling. So it's on the

48:31

flat part of the, of the,

48:34

of the, of the square. We

48:36

don't have to do that. We

48:38

could. not vent our roofs and

48:40

condition our roofs and our attics.

48:42

Forgive me. And we could treat

48:44

that triangle space as part of

48:46

the enclosure. So instead of insulating

48:49

on the flat, we could insulate

48:51

on the on the pitch and

48:53

not vent our roofs. But if

48:55

we do that, we still have

48:57

moisture that escapes and we still

48:59

have to deal with condensation in

49:02

our in the within the materials

49:04

that compose our roof assemblies. And

49:06

in order to do that, there's

49:08

two main approaches to this. The

49:10

first approach is to insulate on

49:12

top of the triangle, on top

49:14

of our roof deck. And this

49:17

is... It solves our condensation issue

49:19

by making our surface warm again.

49:21

So in order to have condensation,

49:23

you have to have a cold

49:25

surface. Well, this gets rid of

49:27

the cold surface. So now, none

49:30

of the, like, no part of

49:32

the triangle is cold. I mean,

49:34

I guess it's cold on the

49:36

outside. But we don't care about

49:38

the outside. We care about the

49:40

inside. So nothing is, we don't

49:42

have warm moisture-laden interior air that

49:45

reaches a cold surface. So that's

49:47

one approach to dealing with condensation

49:49

is to insulate on the outside.

49:51

The alternative approach is to insulate

49:53

on the inside of our attic,

49:55

but to use a special kind

49:58

of insulation. that is not permeable

50:00

to air or water vapor. And

50:02

typically what people use in this

50:04

case is spray foam insulation. And

50:06

specifically they'll use close cell spray

50:08

foam insulation, which won't get into

50:10

why, but they'll use spray foam

50:13

insulation to basically make it so

50:15

that the warm moisture-laden interior air

50:17

can't reach the cold surfaces in

50:19

the roof assembly above. a few

50:21

downsides, but the biggest downsides with

50:23

both of those approaches, well, the

50:26

first one is cost, and there's

50:28

a There's cost in a bunch

50:30

of different respects. One, the surface

50:32

area is bigger, so you're just

50:34

buying more material to insulate on

50:36

the triangle instead of on the

50:38

flat. The second is that the

50:41

type of insulation you use is

50:43

now different. If you insulate on

50:45

the top, you have to use

50:47

an insulation that is appropriate to

50:49

being outside, and it has to

50:51

be more rigid. You can't use

50:54

the less expensive loose fill insulations.

50:56

And if you insulate on the

50:58

inside, now you're having to use

51:00

spray foam. insulation and that takes

51:02

a special trade to install and

51:04

a lot of people wish to

51:06

avoid using foams in their in

51:09

their homes so it's it's more

51:11

expensive materially it's um it's bringing

51:13

a different trade onto the job

51:15

that's not yeah doing any other

51:17

work I didn't mention this a

51:19

minute ago but if you insulate

51:21

on the exterior good luck finding

51:24

a roofer in California yeah that's

51:26

not common not coming here it

51:28

exhalation is not really talked about

51:30

in SoCal. But why, so if

51:32

we insulate on the inside, on

51:34

the pitch, right, why, I'm asking

51:37

as a layman, why can't we

51:39

just use the typical, you know,

51:41

bat insulation we see, why do

51:43

we have to use the closed

51:45

cell spray foam? Because the bat

51:47

insulations are too permeable to water

51:49

vapor and to air, so that

51:52

you still get that warm moisture

51:54

lead and air that wafts through

51:56

them and will cause the roof

51:58

decking, which is usually OSB or

52:00

plywood, to rot. Now, so this

52:02

is what has been the case

52:05

for a long time. So we've

52:07

had condition the attic or uncondition

52:09

the attic, like vent the attic

52:11

or condition the attic, as are

52:13

two kind of options. And like,

52:15

I can, cheap and effective in

52:17

the vented attic or expensive and

52:20

complicated in the other one, like

52:22

what are your clients going to

52:24

pick? They're going to, this is

52:26

why venting is so popular. Now

52:28

there's other reasons, I'm not going

52:30

to get too down the rabbit

52:33

hole in this. Actually, I have

52:35

a, if someone who wants to

52:37

get into this, like why you,

52:39

more detail on this, I did

52:41

a video for A slab, A-C-E-L-A-B,

52:43

I did a video, it's free,

52:45

online, you can get into more

52:48

of the technical weeds on this,

52:50

but anyway. For a long time,

52:52

these were our options and that

52:54

was pretty much it. And it

52:56

was especially challenging in climates like

52:58

California where you might actually want

53:01

to insulate on the pitch, but

53:03

the cost delta was just like

53:05

too much of an ink, like

53:07

there wasn't a mid-step, like there

53:09

wasn't a halfway, it was just

53:11

like cheap or expensive, there wasn't

53:13

like anything in the middle. And

53:16

now we have a different, we

53:18

have a third option for us,

53:20

which is really, really cool. And

53:22

what this involves is adding a

53:24

what's called a diffusion port at

53:26

the apex of the roof, so

53:29

where the ridge vent would be.

53:31

What we'll do is instead of

53:33

using wood sheathing all the way

53:35

at like the whole part of

53:37

the triangle at the very top

53:39

of the triangle We cut out

53:41

the sheathing at the very top

53:44

and we replace it with something

53:46

that's vapor open So something that

53:48

we can have drawing that like

53:50

go through so we'll put a

53:52

building paper there like like Tyvek

53:54

or something so we cut out

53:57

the like a small portion of

53:59

the wood, if you, the code

54:01

will tell you how much to

54:03

do. Now I don't I don't

54:05

know what it is, but

54:07

like okay six inches at

54:10

the on each side and

54:12

we'll wrap it with Tyvek

54:14

and Will we can now?

54:16

insulate using? moisture sensitive insulations

54:18

like like a bat or

54:20

a blown cellulose with with

54:22

netting or something and We

54:25

can permit drawing to happen

54:27

just at the apex without

54:29

venting the whole roof. This

54:31

is unbelievably helpful

54:33

without the added cost. So I

54:35

guess you have a moderate cost

54:37

increase in that the surface area

54:39

is a little bigger to do

54:41

the triangle instead of the flat.

54:43

But yeah nominal though. It's nominal

54:45

like you've already got somebody at the

54:48

job. This is not yeah. Like this

54:50

you wouldn't even notice this in a

54:52

in a bid or you shouldn't really

54:54

this is this is not an expensive

54:57

change and now we don't have to

54:59

vent the roof. And the story of

55:01

how we know that this works is

55:04

really kind of cool. And this is

55:06

I think it's something special about our

55:08

about our industry in the way that

55:10

we practice in North America. And what.

55:13

like the way we knew about this and

55:15

I'm stories of how big things come to

55:17

pass are complicated that and I don't

55:19

know all of it but I don't

55:21

know all of the history I'm sure

55:23

there's I'm sure there's I'm sure there's

55:26

more to it than this but these

55:28

are the the broad strokes is that

55:30

on the forensic side we noticed when

55:32

we failed to vent roofs like when

55:35

people didn't do this properly when they

55:37

insulated on the underside using moisture permeable

55:39

insulation and the roof started a rot

55:41

it would rot. It always rotted at

55:43

the ridge. So we do this thing,

55:46

we vent roofs to control moisture,

55:48

to flush out moisture, to protect

55:50

the roof decking. But the roof

55:52

decking, when we did it wrong,

55:54

when we didn't vent it right,

55:56

it wouldn't rot everywhere.

55:58

It rotted only. at the ridge

56:01

which got people thinking, huh, like

56:03

why is it only rotting at

56:05

the ridge? Like what if we

56:07

added a vent, like a, what's

56:09

called a diffusion vent. So it's

56:11

not for air, it's for like

56:14

molecular diffusion. So this is a

56:16

little bit of a harder way

56:18

of thinking about things, but the

56:20

simplified way is. If you have

56:22

something wet and you put it

56:24

next to something, or if you

56:27

have something dry and you put

56:29

it next to something wet, the

56:31

dry thing gets wet and the

56:33

wet thing gets drier. So this

56:35

is what's happening is an airflow,

56:38

it's molecular diffusion, so individual molecules

56:40

of water move from from something

56:42

wet to something more dry. And

56:44

by adding, by removing the moisture

56:46

sensitive wood from the ridge of

56:48

the roof and replacing it with

56:51

something that's vapor permeable that allows

56:53

the molecules of water to escape,

56:55

we can... we can vent the

56:57

roof or remove enough moisture to

56:59

where we don't we don't lose

57:01

the roof we don't have a

57:04

problem with it and if you're

57:06

having trouble picturing this by the

57:08

way you take out the roof

57:10

decking but you do have to

57:12

cover it with a traditional roof

57:14

vent right obviously you can't just

57:17

have sure that'd be some time

57:19

like four to get done then

57:21

you'll like to be a little

57:23

a little cap like a like

57:25

a chimney cap like a you

57:27

don't cap the chimney So that

57:30

the smoke can't get out, but

57:32

you just have the chimney to

57:34

stop the rain from coming in

57:36

like an umbrella But anyway we

57:38

can do this and we can

57:40

do this in like the best

57:43

climate for this We can't do

57:45

this in every climate, right? You

57:47

can't do this in Boston and

57:49

have it work. It's too cold

57:51

for too long. It's it's so

57:54

That small amount of moisture removal

57:56

isn't sufficient for climates that are

57:58

really cold So we have a

58:00

lot of moisture on the inside

58:02

and a lot of cold surfaces

58:04

for like seasonally much longer And

58:07

it's just we don't get enough

58:09

drawing this method doesn't give us

58:11

enough enough drawing to be effective

58:13

in cold climates. But you know

58:15

what climate it works? Great in

58:17

California. It works fantastic in California.

58:20

And this idea originated, I think,

58:22

like 15 or 20 years ago.

58:24

But we had to test it.

58:26

So we had to figure this

58:28

out. 20 years ago. Wow. That's

58:30

crazy. So does the building code

58:33

allow that to happen already? And

58:35

people have just allowed it to

58:37

happen. only just like this is

58:39

real recent and but we okay

58:41

so we knew that we had

58:43

the idea 15 years ago but

58:46

we didn't know like we didn't

58:48

have experience with it right this

58:50

is a new this is just

58:52

an idea like how do you

58:54

how do you test it you

58:57

have to figure it out like

58:59

in what climates how do we

59:01

know what climates it's going to

59:03

work in and what climates it

59:05

won't work in and there's a

59:07

really cool story I Your listeners

59:10

probably, maybe they know this, maybe

59:12

they don't, but I think a

59:14

lot of, there's a lot of

59:16

confusion among lay people about where

59:18

building codes come from. And they

59:20

don't realize the extraordinary feet that

59:23

our code system is in North

59:25

America. I mean, there's lots of

59:27

problems with codes as well, but

59:29

I'm really impressed with it generally

59:31

in that it's, this is an

59:33

almost entirely volunteer operation. So you

59:36

have subject matter experts who sit

59:38

on these code committees as volunteers.

59:40

They are not paid. I think

59:42

obviously they've got to have some

59:44

paid staff somewhere. But the people

59:46

that sit on these code committees

59:49

are typically volunteers and anyone can

59:51

propose a code change. Anyone. Like

59:53

you don't have to be an

59:55

architect. You could be an architect

59:57

though. You could be anybody can

59:59

propose a code change. You propose

1:00:02

a code change. Make your case

1:00:04

to the... committee that oversees that

1:00:06

portion of the code and then

1:00:08

they vote on it. And that's

1:00:10

how we get that's how we

1:00:13

get our codes. And then individual

1:00:15

jurisdictions will adopt, will decide whether

1:00:17

they want to adopt that code

1:00:19

or change it or enhance it

1:00:21

or whatever. But this is a

1:00:23

pretty volunteer grassroots option. And I

1:00:26

think we owe a really big

1:00:28

debt of gratitude to a lot

1:00:30

of professionals that don't get paid

1:00:32

for this work, but do it

1:00:34

to better our industry. Fascinating. Yeah.

1:00:36

Yeah. Anyway, I find it really

1:00:39

impressive. But anyway, so this idea

1:00:41

started like 15 years ago, 20

1:00:43

years ago, something like that. And

1:00:45

my father was really interested in

1:00:47

this. His name is Joe Steebrick,

1:00:49

and he's a building scientist. And

1:00:52

he ended up getting, I think,

1:00:54

some Department of Energy grants to

1:00:56

figure this out as well. So

1:00:58

they did, there were sort of

1:01:00

two testing ways of testing this.

1:01:02

out that I'm aware of. They

1:01:05

might have done, I'm sure they

1:01:07

did more, but there were two

1:01:09

projects that I was aware of.

1:01:11

One was they built a test

1:01:13

facility in my backyard, my childhood

1:01:16

backyard. They built the test house.

1:01:18

Awesome, awesome. And they insulated it

1:01:20

using different kinds of, like it

1:01:22

was, so it looks like kind

1:01:24

of a barn almost, and they

1:01:26

did the roof, they had different

1:01:29

like bays of the, each bay.

1:01:31

like Rafter Bay in the roof

1:01:33

was insulated differently with a different

1:01:35

membrane on the underside, a different

1:01:37

like and they played around with

1:01:39

the size of the of the

1:01:42

opening at the ridge and and

1:01:44

then they simulated different interior conditions

1:01:46

and had sensors, data loggers on

1:01:48

the roof sheathing, monitoring this and

1:01:50

they ran the experiment for like

1:01:52

a year or two years. I

1:01:55

think they still have it still

1:01:57

there. So they looked at it

1:01:59

and figured out like what's going

1:02:01

on there. So that was one

1:02:03

experiment and that was led by

1:02:05

a guy by the name of

1:02:08

Kota Weno in a building science

1:02:10

corporation under like with Department of

1:02:12

Energy money. And then the other

1:02:14

thing that ended up happening was

1:02:16

they got a bunch of production

1:02:18

homebuilders to volunteer to design roofs

1:02:21

this way at different like divisions

1:02:23

of their company in different parts

1:02:25

of the country to test it.

1:02:27

And they monitored the roofs and.

1:02:29

We had to test it. Then

1:02:32

when we had this data and

1:02:34

this information from real, from testing,

1:02:36

my father, like personally, went to

1:02:38

the code hearings. Like, just he's

1:02:40

one guy. He bought a plane

1:02:42

ticket, goes to, they haven't been

1:02:45

Las Vegas law, and he said,

1:02:47

this is like, we should do

1:02:49

this. And then they said, okay.

1:02:51

I mean, it took a few

1:02:53

code iterations, I think, to get

1:02:55

it in the code, but it

1:02:58

is now code. And that is

1:03:00

how that is how that happened

1:03:02

happened. Because they so cool that

1:03:04

the damage was only at the

1:03:06

ridge and said yeah What if

1:03:08

we could do this differently? What

1:03:11

if we could save some money?

1:03:13

That's really really cool. I feel

1:03:15

like the section of code should

1:03:17

not be an article number I

1:03:19

feel like it should be his

1:03:21

name I'll tell him. He'll be

1:03:24

very flat. I think that would

1:03:26

make the billing code a lot

1:03:28

more fun to be honest also

1:03:30

if it was based on names.

1:03:32

That is really really really cool

1:03:34

because you know one of the

1:03:37

challenges with houses generally speaking but

1:03:39

also maybe not so with the

1:03:41

fire the fires just destroyed everything

1:03:43

but with the houses is you

1:03:45

know folks want to do new

1:03:48

construction but that's a different different

1:03:50

things from retrofitting or updating a

1:03:52

house and doing a remodel of

1:03:54

sorts and remodels are incredibly challenging

1:03:56

for many many reasons and one

1:03:58

of them though is how do

1:04:01

we do meaningful interventions that have

1:04:03

a big impact without like destroying

1:04:05

half the house and it's just

1:04:07

It's really hard, like I don't

1:04:09

know how many houses we come

1:04:11

across with clients or prospective clients

1:04:14

in the houses from like the

1:04:16

1950s or the 60s and they

1:04:18

start talking about their ideas and

1:04:20

we're like, I don't even, like

1:04:22

almost nothing in this house, like

1:04:24

new glazing, new insulation, new everything,

1:04:27

and it's really hard to find

1:04:29

again meaningful ways to have huge

1:04:31

impact. But on the subject specifically

1:04:33

of how do we deal with

1:04:35

these roofs for fire prevention or

1:04:37

also maybe just general energy performance.

1:04:40

This is an amazing solution. Yes,

1:04:42

you make an excellent point. This

1:04:44

can be done as a retrofit.

1:04:46

So when you go to re-roof,

1:04:48

you can do this. It's not,

1:04:51

I mean, maybe it's marginally more

1:04:53

expensive. And it'll be at first,

1:04:55

right, as people learn how to

1:04:57

do a new thing, because there's

1:04:59

sort of path dependency, right? We

1:05:01

want to do the thing that

1:05:04

we're used to doing, but this

1:05:06

is not a... This is not

1:05:08

a big leap, this is a

1:05:10

tiny change, yes. And it's a

1:05:12

small change that way disproportionately reduces

1:05:14

your risk in a wildfire. It's

1:05:17

just absolutely disproportionate. Are there in

1:05:19

general other benefits to have a

1:05:21

closed roof or a non-vented roof

1:05:23

system versus one that has an

1:05:25

attic and has vents? Honestly, I

1:05:27

really think that unless you're designing

1:05:30

a very, very simple house, you

1:05:32

shouldn't be venting your roof. We

1:05:34

should be conditioning our attics now.

1:05:36

Our houses are just, even relatively

1:05:38

simple houses are just more complex

1:05:40

right now. So roof venting. For

1:05:43

it to be effective you have

1:05:45

to have a relatively simple roofline

1:05:47

and a clear pathway from Suffolk

1:05:49

to Ridge So the way I've

1:05:52

described it like the triangle on

1:05:54

top of the square like if

1:05:56

your house looks like that Yeah,

1:05:58

yeah, sure But increasingly we don't

1:06:00

do that right? and we want

1:06:02

the freedom to do other things.

1:06:04

So venting is not a great

1:06:06

choice for more complicated roof lines.

1:06:08

We also have a tendency to

1:06:11

put our mechanical equipment in our

1:06:13

attics, especially in warmer climates, and

1:06:15

that can cause huge problems for

1:06:17

us from... from a comfort and

1:06:19

indoor air quality perspective inside our

1:06:21

homes. So like beyond just risk

1:06:23

of condensation on the ductwork and

1:06:25

on our mechanical systems, which is

1:06:27

a real thing. We also, by

1:06:30

having our mechanical systems in our

1:06:32

attics, we often will, like if

1:06:34

we have leaky ducts, we end

1:06:36

up, how do I describe this

1:06:38

easiest? So when you. When you

1:06:40

have your air conditioner in your

1:06:42

attic, it's a closed system. Actually,

1:06:44

when you have it anywhere, your

1:06:46

air conditioner is a closed system.

1:06:49

It's this box with ducks attached

1:06:51

to it, and it takes warm

1:06:53

air from the house, makes it

1:06:55

colder, and then puts it back

1:06:57

into the house. So, like, takes

1:06:59

warm air, cools it, puts it

1:07:01

back in. It's the circle. And

1:07:03

if our... If our mechanical system

1:07:05

is in the attic, or ducks

1:07:08

and our air handler in the

1:07:10

attic, which they typically are in

1:07:12

a lot of houses in mild

1:07:14

or warm climates, and the ducks

1:07:16

leak, what ends up happening is

1:07:18

we take out the same amount

1:07:20

of air from the house and

1:07:22

it goes into the magic box

1:07:24

to make it cool, but we

1:07:27

don't put all of that air

1:07:29

back in because we lose some

1:07:31

of it to the attic. So

1:07:33

what we, if we take out

1:07:35

more than we're putting back, like

1:07:37

if you do this to your

1:07:39

bank account, if you take out

1:07:41

more than you track, you create

1:07:43

a negative pressure in the house.

1:07:46

And then what that does is

1:07:48

more air will have to come

1:07:50

in from the outside from somewhere

1:07:52

through defect. in your enclosure through

1:07:54

other defects in the square part

1:07:56

of the house, the square versus

1:07:58

the triangle, to make up for

1:08:00

the losses in the attic. And

1:08:02

when you do that, the air

1:08:05

brings other things with it, like

1:08:07

dust, like smoke, like moisture. So

1:08:09

if you do this and you're,

1:08:11

say, in Miami, now you have.

1:08:13

human humanity problems and you can

1:08:15

have like serious problems with mold

1:08:17

with them with all kinds of

1:08:19

other stuff there's there's some other

1:08:21

reasons too but this is those

1:08:24

are those the highlights it ends

1:08:26

up being typically a lot a

1:08:28

lot a lot better to to

1:08:30

condition our addicts it's um it

1:08:32

allows us to control our interior

1:08:34

environment a lot better and I

1:08:36

don't mean control to the scent

1:08:38

to the like sometimes when people

1:08:41

hear that they're like Especially I'm

1:08:43

thinking of you in California like

1:08:45

I don't need to control things

1:08:47

man. I'm cool It sounds like

1:08:49

me It means that yeah, yeah,

1:08:51

and actually like you can be

1:08:53

you can have a healthier environment

1:08:55

like you're not You can bring

1:08:57

in fresh filtered air from a

1:09:00

location that you know about rather

1:09:02

than allowing air to come in

1:09:04

from who the heck knows where.

1:09:06

That's a really good point. Whatever

1:09:08

the heck is in your walls

1:09:10

and has been there for 50

1:09:12

years, you know. Yeah, yeah, that's

1:09:14

a really, really good point. And

1:09:16

then, and actually I was going

1:09:19

to mention that because we do

1:09:21

hear from folks and a lot

1:09:23

of the folks we work with

1:09:25

are in California that when they

1:09:27

hear about a closed roof or

1:09:29

a closed envelope, like a fully

1:09:31

sealed house, they think like, well,

1:09:33

Well, if not fresh air? Well,

1:09:35

you know, don't I want fresh

1:09:38

air coming in? And it's like,

1:09:40

well, to find fresh, if you

1:09:42

actually want fresh air, then we

1:09:44

can do that through systems now,

1:09:46

because we have these systems, as

1:09:48

opposed to letting leak air come

1:09:50

through, which, like, to your point,

1:09:52

carries a bunch of stuff, especially

1:09:54

in Los Angeles, you know. bringing

1:09:57

it in through a dedicated place

1:09:59

to bring it in on a

1:10:01

under their control means that they

1:10:03

can bring in more fresh air

1:10:05

when they're having a party or

1:10:07

or if they've done something in

1:10:09

their house that they want to

1:10:11

like flush stuff out more like

1:10:13

they've I don't know they standard

1:10:16

their floors or they clean their

1:10:18

they clean something, I don't know.

1:10:20

They can adapt it and then

1:10:22

they can filter the air that

1:10:24

they've brought in so that they

1:10:26

can have better control over their

1:10:28

allergies. Or like if they've got,

1:10:30

if there's wildfires but not immediately

1:10:32

threatening their home, it does affect

1:10:35

the air quality and you need

1:10:37

to be able to breathe healthfully

1:10:39

even if there's fires in Canada.

1:10:41

We had that problem. I don't

1:10:43

remember what summer it was because

1:10:45

I've been in the mom fog

1:10:47

for a while. But that was

1:10:49

a big deal, like real far

1:10:51

away from the fires. People were

1:10:54

still smelling it. And if you

1:10:56

design a home to have better

1:10:58

control over your interior environment, you

1:11:00

can really be like orders of

1:11:02

magnitude more comfortable in your space.

1:11:04

And that is not. That's not

1:11:06

that expensive. Like yes, it's expensive.

1:11:08

You have to you have to

1:11:10

find a competent architect and mechanical

1:11:13

systems designer and you have to

1:11:15

buy the equipment. But if you're

1:11:17

going to the trouble to build

1:11:19

a new house anyway, as a

1:11:21

percentage of the total cost of

1:11:23

your build, that's not crazy. And

1:11:25

also I think clients typically, you

1:11:27

know, They kind of care about

1:11:29

the air they breathe, usually. Yes,

1:11:32

yes, yes. I think more and

1:11:34

more and more these days, the

1:11:36

idea of health and wellness is

1:11:38

definitely more central in the mainstream

1:11:40

sense. I wanted to go back

1:11:42

to an earlier point you brought

1:11:44

up about the materials being used

1:11:46

and this idea that we can't

1:11:48

use wood at all in buildings

1:11:51

if they want to be fire

1:11:53

resilient. And also that reminded me.

1:11:55

You mentioned A slab. An A

1:11:57

slab, we're working with them on

1:11:59

a few things. They've been fantastic

1:12:01

in helping us and as a

1:12:03

material database. I don't know if

1:12:05

a lot of architects know about

1:12:08

them. If not, they should. Folks,

1:12:10

you should look them up. It's

1:12:12

like, this is a tangent now,

1:12:14

but the challenges of an architect

1:12:16

sometimes, especially as a small practice,

1:12:18

is finding the right resources, the

1:12:20

right materials, the right people. And

1:12:22

they just make that whole process

1:12:24

easier. by hooking you up with

1:12:27

references of like products and things

1:12:29

and they give you information about

1:12:31

the products too. It's really kind

1:12:33

of, it feels like a cheat

1:12:35

code to be honest is what

1:12:37

it feels like. Yeah, I just,

1:12:39

there's so many things that are

1:12:41

sort of newer that make me

1:12:43

genuinely wonder like, they're so good

1:12:46

that I'm like, how do we

1:12:48

do this before? Yeah. Like what

1:12:50

we were talking about before, the

1:12:52

less information you have, the more

1:12:54

conservative you have to be, the

1:12:56

more information you have, the more

1:12:58

creative you can be with, and

1:13:00

that goes for materials too. If

1:13:02

you don't know a whole lot,

1:13:05

then you can't, you can't be

1:13:07

more experimental about materials. No, 100%

1:13:09

that's exactly it. Like sometimes, you

1:13:11

know, we're working on something that's

1:13:13

like, I think, I think there's

1:13:15

something out there that might solve

1:13:17

this problem that we're dealing with.

1:13:19

you know, sometimes there are a

1:13:21

big help to help us find

1:13:24

it. But on the subject of

1:13:26

materials, were you thinking mainly the

1:13:28

materials of the structure itself or

1:13:30

also the exterior cladding of the

1:13:32

house? For the wood? For the

1:13:34

wood. Yeah, I mean, it's... Yes,

1:13:36

so in fairness, yes, if you

1:13:38

like flammable materials are flammable materials

1:13:40

by definition, but there are things

1:13:43

that we can do to treat

1:13:45

materials to make them not not

1:13:47

ignite. Right, right. Exactly. And to

1:13:49

be honest, I'm not a real

1:13:51

expert on those, like parsing those

1:13:53

differences. But I don't think that's

1:13:55

actually that hard to kind of

1:13:57

look up when you've got a

1:13:59

system and manufacturers that'll sell you

1:14:02

a cladding system. They can competently

1:14:04

speak to how long it takes

1:14:06

the stuff to ignite. But with

1:14:08

wood too, like there's things that

1:14:10

we treat things for fire all

1:14:12

the time. So and I think

1:14:14

it's also a question of what

1:14:16

are we actually trying to accomplish

1:14:18

like if the fire is Like

1:14:21

engulfing or is right there like

1:14:23

you need to the priority need

1:14:25

really does need to be to

1:14:27

escape safely And but but if

1:14:29

it's like controlling the spread, I

1:14:31

don't even I don't even have

1:14:33

the vocabulary to describe this, but

1:14:35

I think you kind of know

1:14:37

what I mean by this. Yeah.

1:14:40

It's a really good point because

1:14:42

we were sort of talking about

1:14:44

this. It was on the show,

1:14:46

maybe off the show, I don't

1:14:48

recall, but the goal of what

1:14:50

we're trying to achieve does need

1:14:52

to be thought about because a

1:14:54

lot of the code and a

1:14:56

lot of what we do is

1:14:59

not necessarily to make sure the

1:15:01

house is resilient to everything forever.

1:15:03

It's mostly a safety thing so

1:15:05

you can get out. And actually

1:15:07

this reminds me we had a

1:15:09

structural engineer on the show. years

1:15:11

ago now, and we were asking

1:15:13

him about structural integrity and resiliency

1:15:15

for earthquakes, right? Sort of parallel.

1:15:18

And it's like, look, I could

1:15:20

design you a house that's going

1:15:22

to withstand anything as long as

1:15:24

there's land underneath it, but that's

1:15:26

unrealistic from a cost and budget

1:15:28

standpoint and unrealistic for our goal.

1:15:30

The goal is to give you

1:15:32

time to get out or whatever

1:15:35

it was in that conversation. Or

1:15:37

when it fails. it fails in

1:15:39

a way that's designed and minimized

1:15:41

loss of life. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

1:15:43

exactly it. That's exactly it. As

1:15:45

opposed to trying to create a

1:15:47

structure that's going to be the

1:15:49

only thing standing, you know, if

1:15:51

the entire city goes away. Yes,

1:15:54

yes, I mean. It is true

1:15:56

if we built with only non-flammable

1:15:58

materials, yes, that like if you're

1:16:00

comparing a house built with wood

1:16:02

frame materials and with a wood

1:16:04

frame versus a concrete or steel

1:16:06

frame, yes, like stuff that burns

1:16:08

burns, stuff that doesn't burn doesn't

1:16:10

burn, but that's not the like,

1:16:13

those aren't the only factors. Yeah,

1:16:15

yeah. And I think the bigger

1:16:17

underlying question is, you know, like

1:16:19

you mentioned tornadoes, it's like if

1:16:21

you are going to build in

1:16:23

a zone that is at risk.

1:16:25

you are taking a risk. Like,

1:16:27

you know, and it poses the

1:16:29

question, should we be building in

1:16:32

those zones of earthquakes and tornadoes

1:16:34

and wildfires, you know, floods, like,

1:16:36

you know, we are in some

1:16:38

ways already looking for some trouble.

1:16:40

Like, well, we had an architect,

1:16:42

a colleague, say that to too

1:16:44

much of architects and then the

1:16:46

room, we kind of, kind of,

1:16:48

like the human species. to kind

1:16:51

of realize that, yeah, we probably

1:16:53

shouldn't do that, let's move on

1:16:55

and do something that makes more

1:16:57

sense because... There's a lot of

1:16:59

practice at play. Because we tend

1:17:01

to forget, you know. That's, that's,

1:17:03

I think that's true. But what

1:17:05

I was trying to get at

1:17:07

to you is I think for

1:17:10

the layperson, sometimes they see they

1:17:12

hear or see fires, right? And

1:17:14

then they think about houses and

1:17:16

they see... would stick framing type

1:17:18

five, they don't know the type

1:17:20

phrase type five, but you know,

1:17:22

type five framing, and they're like,

1:17:24

well, one and one is two,

1:17:26

what are we doing? That's my

1:17:29

dad right there. He's always asking,

1:17:31

why would you be building with

1:17:33

wood where it burns? And I'm

1:17:35

like, I understand. And I get

1:17:37

it, I get it, to a

1:17:39

degree, but at the same time,

1:17:41

you have layers outside of the

1:17:43

studs which provide all this protection,

1:17:45

so it's not because we have...

1:17:48

all the stuff on the outside

1:17:50

which is using being used as

1:17:52

a shield to protect the studs

1:17:54

anyway like if the fire gets

1:17:56

to your studs on the inside

1:17:58

I mean, we have like furniture

1:18:00

too, but we do fire protection

1:18:02

on the inside too. More on,

1:18:04

we think about this more on

1:18:07

commercial buildings, but yeah, we have

1:18:09

fire rated walls and separations and

1:18:11

we protect certain structural elements more

1:18:13

than others. Like we protect structural

1:18:15

elements more than non-structural elements. There's,

1:18:17

yeah. It's a pretty sophisticated approach.

1:18:19

And I think what it is

1:18:21

is that. There are some people

1:18:23

that object to the concept of

1:18:26

tradeoffs existing like ever in any

1:18:28

context, maybe not any context, but

1:18:30

they feel entitled to the lowest

1:18:32

cost safest option at all times.

1:18:34

And like as a sort of

1:18:36

a matter of principle. And I

1:18:38

think it's just not a very

1:18:40

serious way of thinking about almost

1:18:42

anything like trade-offs exist we make

1:18:45

them and and it's hard to

1:18:47

make them and I think it's

1:18:49

um it requires a lot of

1:18:51

experience and sensitivity and we should

1:18:53

acknowledge that and we don't we

1:18:55

don't always know what the right

1:18:57

thing to do is but but

1:18:59

we if you don't acknowledge the

1:19:02

trade-off you still end up making

1:19:04

the trade-off or so but somebody

1:19:06

else makes it for you really

1:19:08

yeah and I remember early this

1:19:10

was Before I was married to

1:19:12

my husband, we went to this

1:19:14

party, I think it was actually

1:19:16

even before we were engaged, we

1:19:18

went to this sort of informal

1:19:21

party and we met this guy

1:19:23

there and he asked what I

1:19:25

did and I told him about

1:19:27

the, at the time I was

1:19:29

doing a lot more, most of

1:19:31

my practice was forensics. But I

1:19:33

was helping a little bit with,

1:19:35

no, actually this is what it

1:19:37

was. I just started doing a

1:19:40

lot more new construction work and

1:19:42

I gave him the example like...

1:19:44

It was a water management example.

1:19:46

I said, suppose you're a developer

1:19:48

and you install 10,000 windows a

1:19:50

year. You know. how many of

1:19:52

your windows fail from leaking, that

1:19:54

you have to go back and

1:19:56

then repair later. And there's a

1:19:59

cost associated with that. You have

1:20:01

to relocate tenants. You have to

1:20:03

repair whatever it was damaged and

1:20:05

replace the window. There's a cost

1:20:07

associated with that, and you know

1:20:09

what it is, because you pay

1:20:11

it. someone like me, there's a

1:20:13

lot of different types of windows

1:20:15

you can buy and there's different

1:20:18

ways of installing them. So somebody

1:20:20

like me can take a look

1:20:22

at what you're doing right now

1:20:24

and tell you from a technical

1:20:26

perspective what things you could do,

1:20:28

what different, maybe a different product

1:20:30

you could buy, or how you

1:20:32

could alter your installation methods to

1:20:34

reduce whatever that percentage of failure

1:20:37

you have from say, like a

1:20:39

1% failure rate to half a

1:20:41

percent or a quarter. percent or

1:20:43

a tenth of a percent and

1:20:45

you get to decide whether you

1:20:47

do that or not whether that's

1:20:49

worth it because at a certain

1:20:51

point it's just go and fix

1:20:53

the one you know the the

1:20:56

unusual problem that you've had then

1:20:58

it is to make a change

1:21:00

for 10,000 windows. Anyway I was

1:21:02

talking to this guy explaining it

1:21:04

in this way and he got

1:21:06

so angry. It was like well

1:21:08

my tolerance for failure is zero.

1:21:10

I don't know what to tell

1:21:12

you, but I can guarantee you

1:21:15

that 100% of the windows on

1:21:17

your house leak. And he was

1:21:19

like, what? No, they don't leak.

1:21:21

And I was like, have you

1:21:23

looked at your walls? And even

1:21:25

the manufacturers don't tell you, don't

1:21:27

promise you that those windows won't

1:21:29

leak. What they tell you is,

1:21:31

we have tested these windows in

1:21:34

a laboratory under these very specific

1:21:36

conditions. And under these conditions, this

1:21:38

window doesn't leak. That's what they've

1:21:40

told you and that's in a

1:21:42

lab. So are your lab conditions

1:21:44

what your house is experiencing 50

1:21:46

years after it's been built a

1:21:48

hundred years after? Maybe, maybe not.

1:21:50

My bet is on not. But

1:21:53

anyway, I remember it at the

1:21:55

time, because my husband was just

1:21:57

sitting back like watching this. And

1:21:59

this guy gets so angry about

1:22:01

his friend. And it was at

1:22:03

our friend's house, a friend of

1:22:05

his from high school. And the

1:22:07

friend was like, are you going

1:22:09

to do anything here? And my

1:22:12

now husband, but then I guess

1:22:14

boyfriend was like, no, this is

1:22:16

real interesting. So funny, was he

1:22:18

a contractor? No, he wasn't a

1:22:20

contractor. He was just, he was

1:22:22

just, he was just, he was

1:22:24

just, he was really angry at

1:22:26

the concept of tradeoffs, at the,

1:22:29

at the concept of having to,

1:22:31

like, not be able to sort

1:22:33

of, yeah, have to, I don't

1:22:35

know what it was. I guess

1:22:37

an unwillingness to think intelligently that

1:22:39

there's, that there's tradeoffs, like, that.

1:22:41

how much do you do you

1:22:43

want to live in a submarine?

1:22:45

Like we can do that. Like

1:22:48

we can make, we can get

1:22:50

pretty good windows or whatever, but

1:22:52

at a certain point that's not,

1:22:54

that's not really the cost benefit

1:22:56

analysis doesn't work out for most

1:22:58

people. But the thoughts of beauty

1:23:00

though is and a beauty of

1:23:02

what we do in architecture is

1:23:04

that we get to assess what

1:23:07

people's resources are and what their

1:23:09

preferences are and help them make

1:23:11

the best use of the resources

1:23:13

they have so that it kind

1:23:15

of meets their tolerance for risk

1:23:17

and their expectations for performance. And

1:23:19

the more we know about some

1:23:21

of the science part of it,

1:23:23

the more, the better that we

1:23:26

can assist them. And for some

1:23:28

clients, like maybe the answer is

1:23:30

for somebody like this. I mean,

1:23:32

this would be, I'm not taking

1:23:34

this job. But for some people,

1:23:36

it's, you're very risk averse. Like,

1:23:38

I don't think this is a

1:23:40

good place for you to build.

1:23:42

Like, yeah. Maybe that ends up

1:23:45

being. that we said, you know,

1:23:47

we can elevate your house or

1:23:49

if it's in a flood zone

1:23:51

or something, these are the things

1:23:53

that we can do, but have

1:23:55

you considered maybe? a mountain home

1:23:57

instead or whatever. I love that

1:23:59

point. It's a really, really good

1:24:01

one. I agree entirely. It's kind

1:24:04

of what architects do and it's

1:24:06

the challenge of I think being

1:24:08

an architect and the fun of

1:24:10

it is you're always thinking about

1:24:12

these tradeoffs and throwing into the

1:24:14

mix, you know, the cost performance,

1:24:16

the design, the schedule, client preferences,

1:24:18

like all these things are always

1:24:20

being juggled constantly. And I think

1:24:23

the good clients are the ones

1:24:25

who know themselves and are able

1:24:27

to trust the people they hired

1:24:29

is to advise them of like

1:24:31

the options like you mentioned and

1:24:33

then choose the right path that

1:24:35

makes sense for them. But there

1:24:37

are definitely. That's how it works.

1:24:39

And there's almost too many variables

1:24:42

for any client to fully understand

1:24:44

all the variables all the time

1:24:46

on the projects. I think they

1:24:48

have to. That's why I tell

1:24:50

them to hire an architect. They

1:24:52

don't have to hire an architect.

1:24:54

This is correct. I mean, this

1:24:56

is why I tell people to

1:24:58

hire an architect. It's because you

1:25:01

don't know what you don't know.

1:25:03

And you can help you make.

1:25:05

the very best use of your

1:25:07

resources and help you say like

1:25:09

you know what this other thing

1:25:11

maybe it is a little bit

1:25:13

more expensive and it's worth it's

1:25:15

worth our house being a little

1:25:17

bit smaller for or or this

1:25:20

other thing not important at all

1:25:22

to you like okay we don't

1:25:24

have to do that and and

1:25:26

having somebody who really knows this

1:25:28

stuff will get you more of

1:25:30

what you want and I think

1:25:32

the people who have this idea

1:25:34

that they have to negotiate against

1:25:37

the professionals that they hire miss

1:25:39

out on, like kind of the

1:25:41

most important thing that their architect

1:25:43

and also their contractor, if their

1:25:45

contractor's good, can do for them,

1:25:47

which is to get them more

1:25:49

of what they want for less.

1:25:51

Right? Yeah, yeah, another really good

1:25:53

point. That is a great place

1:25:56

to end it as well. It

1:25:58

is. This is a Friday evening.

1:26:00

This is a Friday evening, you

1:26:02

know, the East Coast. So this

1:26:04

is like extra gold points to

1:26:06

you for being so dedicated. Thanks

1:26:08

so much for making the time

1:26:10

on a Friday evening to chat

1:26:12

with us. I think there's so

1:26:15

much more to talk about for

1:26:17

sure. So let's do this again,

1:26:19

hopefully sooner than later. And this

1:26:21

was amazing. The time flew by

1:26:23

and it was going to fly

1:26:25

by. We could keep talking for

1:26:27

the next six hours, but it's

1:26:29

like dinner time for us. probably

1:26:31

getting close to bedtime for you.

1:26:34

So, so we can know. Actually,

1:26:36

it's 903. It's three minutes past

1:26:38

my bedtime. There we go. See,

1:26:40

Christine, thank you so much for

1:26:42

this was amazing. Thank you. Thank

1:26:44

you. Thank you. Thank you everybody

1:26:46

for listening to this week's episode.

1:26:48

If you want to support the

1:26:50

show, then you can leave us

1:26:53

a review in the Apple podcast

1:26:55

app. You can also find us

1:26:57

on Spotify and YouTube to subscribe,

1:26:59

like and I don't know, whatever

1:27:01

else happens on these platforms. You

1:27:03

can find the show on our

1:27:05

website, which is Second StudioPod.com. You

1:27:07

can find our office, which is

1:27:09

Fame Architects.com. Both are on Instagram.

1:27:12

Follow on Instagram to engage in

1:27:14

community conversations and whatever else. How

1:27:16

else can people get a hold

1:27:18

of us? That's it, though. You

1:27:20

say everything? The hotline? The hotline?

1:27:22

2-1-2-2-2-2-6-950. You can send a text

1:27:24

message, call, leave a voicemail. If

1:27:26

you have any great guest suggestions,

1:27:28

any topic? Any topics are welcomed?

1:27:31

Yeah, topics are welcome, big or

1:27:33

small? Don't be afraid. If you

1:27:35

have any specific questions, feel free

1:27:37

to reach out. Yep. Thanks again.

1:27:39

Talk soon. Bye.