0:00

This episode of The Secret Room deals with sexual

0:02

abuse and a woman's path to recovery. Please decide

0:04

if today's show is right for you. Hi,

0:08

Ben. My name is Jen, and my

0:10

secret is what happened when I sat down to

0:12

dinner with a man who had sexually abused me

0:14

40 years before. Today,

0:17

The Secret Room presents Breaking Bread with My

0:19

Abuser. It

0:31

was her brother that was coming into town,

0:34

and I asked her if I could go for dinner

0:36

with them. I do think she was

0:38

a little bit shocked. Today,

1:09

my guest Jen takes us on her journey

1:12

after a difficult childhood that was marred by

1:14

sexual abuse. Her story is

1:16

kept by the remarkable key to her recovery,

1:19

breaking bread with her abuser. Let's

1:21

get started. Hi,

1:24

Jen, and welcome to The Secret Room. Hi,

1:27

Ben. Thanks for having me. It's nice to be here.

1:30

It's great to have you here. Before

1:33

we get started, I just want to thank you so much for

1:36

opening up and sharing this difficult secret. I

1:39

know it's not an easy story to tell. It's

1:41

my pleasure. Could we start by asking

1:44

you just to tell us a little bit about yourself? Sure.

1:49

My name is Jen, and I'm a

1:51

55-year-old woman. I live in

1:53

Winnipeg, Canada. I

1:56

have a couple of lovely teenage boys. My

1:59

parents met like a couple of young men. like way back in 1965. And

2:03

they actually only knew each other for

2:05

about three months before they got married.

2:07

So it was love at first sight

2:09

and they jumped into a relationship together.

2:12

And within a couple of years, my brother

2:14

was born. And then 11

2:17

months later, I was born. So

2:19

I'm very close to my only

2:21

older sibling. And my

2:23

parents' marriage, you know, it's obviously

2:25

difficult to say if it sort

2:27

of was rocky right from the

2:29

start, but I think it certainly

2:31

became rocky after my brother

2:33

and I came along. My

2:36

father was a very, my father was

2:38

actually a French Canadian and his family

2:40

spoke French. He was a fairly socially

2:43

anxious person. And in fact, later in

2:45

life, he was diagnosed with generalized anxiety

2:48

disorder, which is lots of worry. So

2:50

he was a real worrier and he

2:52

was socially anxious and he used alcohol

2:54

as a way to mediate

2:58

how he felt about the world. And

3:00

so how was the marriage rocky? Well,

3:02

I think because my mom was really trying

3:04

to spread her wings a little

3:07

bit and my father was very much trying to

3:09

keep us all in a bubble. And

3:13

yeah, so, I mean, coupled

3:16

with an excessive amount of drinking,

3:18

you know, I can't, I have,

3:23

it's sort of sad to say, but in

3:25

my lifetime, I don't think I've ever seen

3:28

anybody more intoxicated than my own dad. Oh

3:30

my goodness. Turns out I've been around a

3:32

lot of intoxicated people as

3:34

my life went on like a lot. And

3:37

so I think, you know, I think quite

3:39

frankly that my mom, you know, just started

3:41

not enjoying that, you know, how else do

3:43

you say it? I mean, he was, he

3:46

would get really intoxicated. Yeah, when

3:48

I was six and my brother was seven,

3:50

my mom just decided that she didn't want

3:52

the marriage any longer. So

3:54

did they get an actual divorce? Yes.

3:58

Was there a custody arrangement? Yeah.

4:00

I believe so. That's a good question. I don't know

4:02

if it was through the court or if that point

4:04

they just made a verbal agreement that that was what

4:06

was going to happen. Did

4:08

your father's drinking get worse after the divorce

4:11

that you could tell? Very

4:15

much so. Yeah. I'm

4:17

worried for you guys. Was it a safe environment? It's

4:20

certainly not an environment that at this

4:22

point would I ever leave my own

4:24

children. There was actually lots

4:26

of things that happened then that were definitely

4:28

not not safe. I could

4:30

tell you a few stories. I mean,

4:32

there were many occasions where it was

4:35

dinner time and the cook was passed

4:37

out on the picnic table in

4:39

our backyard because he'd had enough to

4:41

drink that he wasn't still conscious enough

4:43

to to make us dinner. At the

4:46

end of the day on Sunday we would all

4:48

pile into my dad's red Ford and he would

4:50

drive us to my mother's. Were

4:52

the police ever involved? I remember

4:54

times when my mom actually would come to

4:57

the house to find us and get us

4:59

because my dad hadn't driven us home and

5:02

police came several times because they had

5:04

to break in the door. The

5:06

police broke in the door. At one point

5:09

in time, the police had to break the back

5:11

window of my father's house to get us out.

5:14

There was an occasion to I'll never forget

5:16

this one. I think it's the ones that

5:18

are sort of the most traumatic.

5:20

I think sometimes that stand out. But my

5:23

father, for some reason, on this Sunday afternoon

5:25

had really gotten quite drunk very early and

5:27

my brother and I decided that we had

5:30

had enough. So we went into the kitchen

5:32

and grabbed the phone that was on the

5:34

wall back in that day. It was

5:37

a big red phone. I remember it. We phoned

5:39

my mom and said, mom, you got

5:41

to come and get us. This is

5:44

ridiculous. My

5:46

mom said she was going to be

5:48

on her way. Then my father overheard

5:51

that we had called her and he

5:53

was quite livid. He went downstairs and

5:55

actually got a gun that he had

5:57

in the basement. Oh my God. Yeah.

6:00

out this rifle and we were standing at

6:02

the front door waiting for my mom to

6:04

come and get us. He sort of had

6:06

my brother in a little bit of a

6:08

headlock. He was holding him with his right

6:10

arm and the gun was in his left

6:12

hand and I was standing off a

6:14

little bit to the side. And I

6:16

mean, even when I think about it now, it's,

6:18

it's just scary to think about like, well, it's

6:21

child abuse. Yeah.

6:23

Yeah. I mean, nobody got shot,

6:25

I guess. But you

6:27

know, I so badly wanted my mom to walk

6:29

in that door and save me. And at the

6:31

exact time, I so badly didn't want my mom

6:33

to walk in the door because my dad was

6:36

going to shoot her. It

6:38

was a pretty tough situation for a couple of

6:40

young kids. That's for sure. Was the rifle loaded?

6:44

I don't know. I don't know. I'm

6:47

assuming so. You have to kind of assume that it is. If

6:50

somebody's pointing a gun at you, assume it's loaded.

6:52

Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Wow.

6:55

And so how did that situation

6:57

end? Well,

6:59

I mean, my mom just walked in the

7:02

mama bear instinct just kicked in. She looked at

7:04

me, she goes, go to the car. She

7:07

went up to my brother. She just

7:09

grabbed him from out of my dad's

7:11

arms and walked out. Oh my

7:14

God. That was sort of how that, that

7:16

ended. And dad just, he just relinquished

7:19

and let your mom take you guys.

7:21

I mean, we basically walked out of

7:23

that situation and you

7:26

know, it was a pretty traumatic event. But

7:29

then on Friday, Ben, we went

7:31

back to my dad's. You

7:34

went back. Mm hmm. I

7:37

would think that your mom might think twice about sending

7:39

you back after that incident. Yeah.

7:44

Yes, I agree. She had her

7:47

kids during the week. She was going back

7:49

to law school. She was trying to have

7:51

a life of her own and her weekends

7:53

were her only time. And I believe

7:55

that my mom also believed that

7:57

a relationship with your

7:59

father. was important. And

8:02

even if it wasn't ideal that

8:04

a relationship of some kind was better than

8:06

no relationship at all. I guess. I mean,

8:08

I think it's far from ideal if he's

8:10

holding you hostage with a rifle, but

8:13

that's another discussion, I guess. Yeah.

8:16

Yeah. I don't, I'm not even sure what my

8:18

mom would say at this point, to be honest

8:20

with you. My mom passed away last June, so

8:22

she's got nothing to say about it. Oh, that's

8:24

okay. Given that your dad

8:26

was constantly drunk,

8:29

were there any times that you as a

8:31

kid actually feared for his safety? Absolutely.

8:34

There was another occasion when

8:37

my grandparents were over and

8:39

my dad got over

8:41

intoxicated, and he passed out

8:43

beside the pool. And

8:45

I thought he was dead. I

8:47

could not get him to, yeah,

8:50

there was no movement whatsoever. You just

8:52

figured he had to be dead. It

8:54

was very scary. And I went to

8:56

my grandparents and said, you guys, like

8:58

what's happening with dad? Like someone do

9:01

something. And my grandmother sauntered over there

9:03

and she was also intoxicated and she

9:05

went to go and try and pull

9:07

him up and she fell on top

9:09

of him because she

9:11

was also intoxicated. This

9:14

is not a good environment at

9:16

all. No. Nobody,

9:19

nobody fell into the pool. Nobody

9:22

fell into the pool. It was right beside the pool though. My

9:25

father probably just slept it off on the

9:27

ground out there for a couple of hours. Okay.

9:30

Well, obviously there are a lot of issues

9:32

with parenting decisions going on here

9:34

between driving drunk and brandishing weapons.

9:36

Do you blame your mom at all for

9:38

allowing this environment to foster? Yeah.

9:43

Yeah. It's interesting. Almost sometimes I

9:45

think that my relationship

9:47

with my mother became

9:50

more disengaged than it did with

9:53

my dad. So my

9:56

father, yet he was the one

9:58

that was sort of causing all this. chaos,

10:00

but you know, our moms are

10:02

meant to protect us and my mom kept sending

10:05

me back. So it actually caused, I think a

10:07

lot, a lot more with my, it was

10:09

harder as I, as I go for forward in

10:11

my story, it was much more difficult for me

10:14

to forgive my mom than it was my dad.

10:16

It really was. Did you ever ask your mom not

10:18

to send you back there? I

10:24

begged my mom not to send me back

10:26

there. Yeah, I did a lot. And

10:28

she, you know, I don't, I don't

10:30

know all the answers of what she would say, but I mean, I do

10:33

remember when I got to be about 12, um,

10:36

you know, I said, okay, mom, like this is ridiculous.

10:38

Like I'm not going back there anymore. And you know,

10:40

she looked at me and she goes, well, I guess

10:42

if you want, you know, your brother's going to have

10:45

to go by himself. Do you want your brother to

10:47

have to go there by himself? Oh my goodness. And

10:50

I know, right? Yeah. And

10:52

so did you feel that your mom's house was the

10:54

safe space? I think maybe at

10:57

the beginning it felt like the safe

10:59

space because it wasn't

11:01

at my dad's, my

11:03

mom, she did, she went back to law school,

11:05

she worked as a legal secretary. And so we

11:07

ended up getting lots of babysitters. And

11:09

so my mom just wasn't there that much.

11:12

Part of my story is that I

11:14

was sexually abused by a couple of

11:16

the babysitters that would show up at our

11:18

house. They were actually

11:20

friends. So maybe I'll explain. It was,

11:22

I had a friend in elementary school

11:24

who was my brother's age. She

11:27

had two older brothers and her parents

11:29

and they lived about a block from

11:32

the school. And my mom befriended the

11:34

mom and we would

11:36

often go to their place after school

11:38

until my mom was able

11:40

to come and pick us up because of her work

11:42

or school. She became sort of like

11:44

a second mom to me. And she was

11:47

a stay at home mom. And so we

11:49

spent a lot of time at that house.

11:52

Those boys would come and babysit us.

11:54

Were they brothers? They were brothers. Yeah.

12:00

Yeah. And did

12:02

the abuse continue? It continued

12:05

at that apartment for a

12:07

while. I actually don't know exactly

12:10

why they stopped coming to babysit

12:13

there. My brother would

12:15

say in later years, so he

12:18

believes that he went to my

12:20

mum. So my brother and I

12:22

shared a room and so my mum put

12:25

up a physical partition so that we would

12:27

have our own space, but it obviously did

12:29

not knock out the sound. And

12:32

so I do think that my brother heard what

12:34

was happening and that he

12:36

then went to my mum and asked

12:38

to not have those boys babysit

12:41

any longer without

12:43

any real discussion about why

12:45

or what. I think it just ended

12:48

around that time. My mum did

12:50

find us this amazing babysitter. Her

12:53

name was Andrea. She was so

12:55

lovely and took such good care of us. And

12:57

so it may have been that she became available.

13:00

So my mum stopped getting those boys just because

13:02

I just know that later on

13:04

my brother said that he had

13:06

asked my mum to not have them babysit.

13:10

Oh, he did. Did he tell you

13:12

why he asked her? No. No,

13:17

no, it's kind of tough conversations. Those

13:21

are, I guess those are, those are tough

13:23

conversations to have. I think my, you know,

13:25

my brother was always, always

13:28

tried to be such a protector of me, you

13:30

know, even though we were less than a year apart.

13:32

But, you know, he was, he was the dude and

13:35

I was his little sister and in

13:37

lots of circumstances, I think he really

13:39

tried to protect me. And

13:41

did you ever talk to your mum about it? Well,

13:49

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15:43

And we're back with Jen as we find out if she

15:45

talked to her mom about the abuse she suffered. I

15:49

believe that no, like not at that time.

15:53

And I kind of, yeah, I have a little bit of a

15:55

philosophy. Keep in mind that up

15:57

until the point when the babysitters started coming.

16:00

And I relentlessly asked my mother

16:02

to not go to my father's.

16:04

Like I really, I begged her to not

16:06

have to go there. And it

16:09

was met with, with, I just had to

16:11

keep going, right? She didn't listen to me.

16:13

And I, I think by the time this

16:15

whole thing started with these boys, I really

16:17

already felt like I'd kind of lost my

16:19

voice. Like it didn't really matter

16:21

what I said. It

16:25

wasn't going to happen. I wasn't going to get what

16:27

was good for me. And so, um,

16:30

I kind of gave up, I think I

16:32

was also scared, you know? Yeah. It's

16:35

terrible. You're not safe at your father's house and you're

16:37

not safe at your mom's house. Yeah.

16:39

Must've been very isolating. Yeah.

16:43

Terrible situation. Yeah. So

16:46

things must've gotten better when your mom stopped

16:48

using those boys to, uh, to

16:51

babysit you. What happened is

16:53

that the, the abuse ended at my

16:55

own home because my mom did

16:58

stop getting those babysitters. But

17:00

again, the family that they came from was

17:03

a family that continued to take care of

17:05

me for many years. So unfortunately I would

17:07

continue to go to their house in the

17:09

city after school and on evenings when my

17:12

mom was going to go out. And

17:14

then we also went to their

17:16

family cottage every summer and I would often

17:19

go stay out there for a month. It

17:22

was actually a beautiful place. It's called Far

17:24

Lane, Ontario. It was very

17:26

cool. At the time you had to take a train

17:28

to get there. There was no roads that made it

17:30

into the isolated lake and they

17:32

owned an island. There was no electricity and

17:35

no running water. And yeah, it was very,

17:37

very cool experience, but yes, but of course

17:39

their whole family went. And

17:41

so those two boys were there lots and you

17:44

know, they, they did things like

17:46

my girlfriend and I would love to go and

17:48

sunbathe on the back docked naked and they would,

17:51

you know, I can remember her saying, well,

17:53

Hey, look out. One of them's in the trees,

17:55

you know, they're spying on us. I'm like, Oh

17:57

my goodness, Bert. Anyway. But

18:00

also, um, they actually

18:02

drilled holes in between their

18:04

bedroom and our bedroom so

18:07

that they could watch us changing. And

18:09

it's disgusting. Creepy.

18:12

Yeah. Was going to the

18:14

lake house of regular summer event? Yeah.

18:17

I mean, I ended up going

18:19

to that cottage well

18:21

into my twenties. Uh,

18:24

but the, those kinds

18:27

of situations. And you know, at

18:29

the lake, he also would come into my room. I

18:32

never know what the good word is for it,

18:34

but anyway, the molestation, whatever you want to call

18:36

it, it took, it continued on when I was

18:38

at that cottage for several years. And

18:40

was it just at the hands of one of the brothers

18:42

or both of them? It was the

18:45

younger brother that was, did it

18:47

lots. The older brother did it a couple of

18:49

times back at the apartment and

18:52

then didn't do it any longer. Because

18:55

I got older and a little

18:57

more, I'm not sure what the right is

18:59

courageous. My fight, fight frees. Star. I

19:02

started to be able to kind of figure things out.

19:04

And you know, in the end, I would basically, as

19:06

soon as he opened the door, I would

19:08

just start tossing and turning in the bed that I

19:10

was in to show him that I was awake. And

19:13

it didn't take much longer after that before

19:15

he stopped coming in and trying because

19:18

I wasn't going to allow it. How

19:20

old were you? How old were you at

19:22

that point? That's probably about 10.

19:25

So the abuse had gone on for about four

19:28

years? Yeah. That

19:30

was such a long, long time.

19:33

Yeah. I mean, I

19:35

guess it wasn't, you know, super

19:37

consistent, but it was, yeah,

19:40

it took place for too long.

19:42

That's for sure. Yeah. Anytime

19:44

is too long, of course. Yeah. So

19:47

really interesting at one point along

19:49

the way, I told

19:52

my girlfriend what was happening. It was, it

19:55

was quite a bit later, like

19:57

we were probably like an 18 maybe or

19:59

something. Uh, she ended

20:01

up saying that she

20:03

had a next door neighbor that

20:05

had done it to her as well. Uh,

20:10

which is really interesting because I really do

20:12

now suspect that they were

20:15

probably, her brothers were probably doing it to

20:17

her too, but

20:19

that it would have been very difficult for her to talk

20:21

about that. Oh,

20:23

your friend was the sister of

20:26

the two brothers. Yeah.

20:29

Yeah. Yeah. And

20:32

she's still actually like one of my best friends

20:34

to this day, even

20:36

in my twenties. I mean, the fact

20:38

is that everybody I knew drank. It's

20:40

just what we did. We all partied.

20:44

This is what I would do, right? I would find people

20:46

that I drank with on Mondays and the people that drank

20:48

on Mondays probably didn't drink on Tuesdays, but I found people

20:50

to drink with on Tuesdays. Like I, you know,

20:53

and none of my friends during that time,

20:55

nobody would have said that I stood out

20:57

in terms of drinking. Would

21:00

you call yourself a functional alcoholic at

21:03

this point? Yes. You would?

21:05

Yes. And how was your personal life? Did

21:08

you find love? Did you get married?

21:11

I always was the girl that was single

21:13

and always wanting to find love. Of course,

21:15

right? I was always looking for that perfect

21:18

partner. I certainly know

21:20

now that really based on how I

21:22

felt about myself as an individual, which wasn't

21:24

that great because I

21:26

basically decided that how I was treated as a

21:28

child was how I was, which was

21:31

not worth taking care of and

21:33

not worth protecting and not worth loving. And

21:36

so I wasn't good at relationships

21:38

and I really, you know, I broke a

21:40

lot of hearts actually because I would, I

21:42

would start to date somebody and as

21:44

soon as I started to like them a little bit

21:47

and they started to like me a little bit, I

21:49

would sabotage it because I

21:51

just knew that once they

21:53

figured out who I was, they

21:55

weren't going to stay anyway. Well,

21:58

you didn't love yourself. Right.

22:02

Yeah. Like I really

22:04

didn't. Yeah. Um, yeah.

22:07

So I say it's single for many, many years.

22:09

And then, you know, the story of my, the

22:11

man that I ended up marrying and having a

22:13

couple of children with, uh, and he's

22:16

a lovely human being. It didn't work

22:18

out, but we, we, we sort of tried

22:20

out at for about 10 years, but, but

22:22

sort of the same thing went, right?

22:25

There was basically nothing that he could

22:27

do to make me feel secure in

22:29

our relationship. Um, he

22:31

was also a heavy drinker. My children

22:34

are five years apart. My older son

22:36

turned four and you know,

22:38

we just sort of looked at each other and

22:40

said, like, and I'm telling you at this point,

22:42

our marriage was not going well, but

22:45

we decided that we would, you know, was

22:47

it, should we get

22:49

this child, the sibling, give

22:51

it a shot? We got pregnant like

22:54

really fast. And so it

22:56

felt like it was sort of meant to

22:58

be. And we brought another baby into the

23:00

world. And, and then within four years of

23:02

that, we were separated. We're very

23:05

good friends at this point. Like now we

23:07

have a very good parenting relationship and everything's

23:09

good, but it was a bit rocky for

23:11

the first little bit. But I can tell you

23:14

one thing that happened when we separated at the

23:16

age of 45 is

23:18

that my, if it's possible,

23:20

my drinking got worse. So

23:23

now here I was, I only had my kids

23:25

half time and

23:27

the other half of the time I was

23:29

just free to do what I wanted. Kind

23:31

of started hanging out with this group of,

23:33

of ladies that, you know, were maybe just

23:36

on a little bit of a different level

23:38

than me. They were using lots of harder

23:41

drugs and partying lots. And

23:44

I found myself getting wrapped up

23:46

in their community. And so

23:48

I got back to

23:50

using some of those harder drugs that I'd stopped

23:53

using for many years. I assume at

23:55

some point this is going to start taking a toll on your

23:57

health. Yes.

24:00

Yeah. So I ended up

24:02

in the end, I ended up actually being

24:05

diagnosed with stage two or

24:07

three liver disease. I was

24:09

told at one point by a hepatologist

24:12

that I likely had cirrhosis and

24:14

cirrhosis is when you get to a point when

24:16

it's not reversible. I did

24:18

not get to cirrhosis. It was

24:20

a diagnosis of liver disease that

24:22

started me on my path to recognizing that I

24:25

needed to get some help. You

24:27

would think that some of the shit that happened

24:29

before that would have been rock bottom enough for

24:31

me to stop. I guess you

24:33

hadn't quite reached it. I hadn't

24:36

quite reached it. Nope. Nope.

24:39

This was your rock bottom at this point. Yes.

24:44

Yeah. So how did you start climbing back up?

24:47

For some reason that really did sort of mark my rock

24:49

bottom. I just said I need help and I phoned my

24:51

brother and I said I need help. And

24:53

my lovely brother came and picked me

24:55

up and

24:59

what did he take you to rehab? Yeah.

25:02

He, he took me to his

25:04

house like with my kids and, and, and

25:06

really didn't take his eyes off me after

25:08

that point. He insisted that

25:11

I be at his house and

25:13

they took me to the doctors and they got me

25:15

an appointment. They got me a detox bed so I

25:17

could go to the hospital in detox. And then I

25:20

also got a bed at a rehab

25:22

and great. How did the rehab go?

25:26

So the rehab went, it was great. It

25:28

was, it was awesome. Actually like from the

25:30

moment I walked into the doors of rehab,

25:32

I recognized I started to very quickly figure

25:34

out that I was in fact an alcoholic

25:37

that I, that I had, and then I had a lot of stuff

25:39

to work on. So, you know, I

25:41

basically sat down in the office of my

25:43

therapist and said, uh, she

25:45

goes, okay, so tell me a bit about yourself. And

25:47

I just told her everything. My father was an alcoholic.

25:49

I was sexually abused as a kid. I was roofied

25:51

a couple of times. I got lots of stuff that

25:53

happened to me and I told her, yeah, I told

25:55

it all to her and I told it

25:57

to her Ben without shedding one tear. And

26:01

she was quite blown away. She kind of looked at

26:03

me and she goes, do you realize sort of what

26:05

just happened? And I go, I don't know what happened.

26:07

She was like, all of

26:09

that stuff is just awful. Like, like,

26:12

how can you say it without having any,

26:14

you have no emotion attached to it? And

26:17

I remember looking at her and saying, well, it happens.

26:19

Shit happens. You know, whatever.

26:21

I'm good. I know. I

26:24

kind of sort of thought of myself as this

26:26

like bad ass, right? Like I've been through all this

26:28

stuff, but I'm, I'm fine. I'm fine. You

26:31

guys don't know. One needs to worry about me. I'm

26:33

good. I'm drinking a two six

26:35

a day. Mind you. How long did it

26:37

take you to realize that you're not so good? Well,

26:41

not, it didn't take very long. And then

26:43

she had me in tears and then, yeah,

26:45

I mean, you know, over the next six

26:47

to eight weeks, I really told her everything,

26:50

all the, every little piece

26:52

of my story. And, and,

26:54

you know, she was amazing. Like I love, I love

26:56

Joanne. She's like still a part of my life. I

26:59

still go see her every once in a while, but

27:01

yeah, she really was able to get me to see

27:03

like that that stuff that happened to me was not

27:06

normal and that it causes, right? It

27:08

causes trauma and that we have to

27:11

work through that stuff. We can't just stuff it down. We

27:13

have to feel the emotion attached to it.

27:16

And then we have to forgive, right? We

27:19

have to forgive and move on. You

27:22

know, when I first walked into that rehab, I was

27:25

told very quickly that it was likely a good idea for me

27:27

to sign up for a place that

27:29

helped women who were sexually abused as kids.

27:32

And how was, how did you feel about that? I

27:35

said, absolutely not. I

27:37

said, I will manage my parents. Right.

27:40

Because you're a bad ass. Because

27:43

I'm a bad ass. I'm a bad ass. I don't

27:45

need help. I also really do. I mean, I guess

27:47

in retrospect now, like the thought of

27:49

having to go and dig up all

27:52

those feelings. Oh my goodness. Of

27:54

what that felt like. It's scary. You

27:58

don't want to confront that stuff. I

28:00

really didn't. And so

28:03

did you go to the facility that she recommended?

28:06

I did, yes. I

28:08

went there and I started off doing

28:11

their groups. The answer to

28:13

all of it for me was forgiveness. I

28:16

had to forgive people. Did

28:18

you see the act of forgiveness as

28:20

something for yourself or for the person

28:23

that you were forgiving? So

28:26

the reason why it took me so long to forgive

28:28

was because I thought it was for them. I

28:31

could not wrap my head around it.

28:33

Like, how can I forgive this person?

28:35

It's like I felt like it was

28:37

condoning it. I felt like it

28:39

was saying that they get to move on with the

28:41

rest of their lives, like nothing else had ever happened.

28:44

This is kind of crazy, but one of the

28:46

reasons why it was so difficult for me to

28:48

quit drinking was because

28:50

I felt like being successful in

28:53

recovery was letting my mom

28:55

off the hook for all the bullshit that

28:57

she had caused in my life. Something

29:00

would happen. I'd get mad and I'd drink at her

29:02

and it would be like, this is what you get

29:05

for what you did. And you're

29:07

really just punishing yourself? Oh

29:09

my goodness. And never mind, like

29:12

I was legitimately putting the poison into

29:14

my own body. Yeah, literally. Yeah,

29:16

exactly. You know, they say resentment is like

29:18

drinking poison and expecting the other person to

29:21

die. It's not how it goes. Doesn't work

29:23

that way. No. And

29:26

I guess you figured that out. I

29:29

did. I did. Yeah. Did

29:31

you make a list of the people that you

29:33

needed to forgive for your own

29:35

health? I

29:38

did. Yeah. Who were they? Well,

29:41

I mean, it really, really kind of went,

29:43

you know, mom, dad, abusers.

29:49

And that was kind of it. So that's

29:51

a long enough list. I imagine that would be very hard

29:53

to work through. Yeah. Yeah. You know,

29:55

it's funny. My dad, my dad was a

29:57

little bit easier. My dad was an alcoholic,

29:59

so I started to think. started to truly

30:01

understand my father. Did you

30:03

start to understand him with the frame of

30:06

reference that you were also an alcoholic? Exactly.

30:10

Yeah. Yeah. I

30:12

knew what it felt like to not be able to

30:15

put down a drink. I knew what it

30:17

felt like to make drinking or to have

30:19

drinking be my priority, right?

30:21

My drinking became my priority over

30:23

everything. My dad didn't want to

30:26

risk my life by putting me in the back

30:28

of the car, but he needed to get me

30:30

to my mom's and just as badly he needed

30:33

to be drinking. It must

30:35

have been quite a revelation when you

30:37

figured out that drinking was

30:39

your priority at the expense of everything

30:41

else in your life. Yeah.

30:45

Yeah. It was after the fact though, you

30:48

know, it was definitely after the fact. How do you

30:50

mean? Well,

30:54

it was only through a lot of

30:56

psychoeducation, a lot of AA meetings

30:58

and CA meetings and listening to other

31:00

people talk that I went, wow, this

31:03

is actually exactly what's happening to

31:05

me. I am an alcoholic.

31:08

I did. I did so many crazy

31:10

things that I would never have done

31:13

without alcohol, but I couldn't put the

31:15

alcohol down at one

31:17

point in time. My son was played

31:19

hockey and I was, I had to drive him out to

31:21

a hockey game and my

31:23

younger son was also with me. And I

31:26

don't know, I was just having, sometimes it was less

31:29

controllable than others. And I had so

31:31

much to drink. Ben, like I was

31:33

doing shots of tequila in between periods

31:35

at this game. It was so crazy.

31:37

Even as I was walking out of

31:39

that facility, I knew I shouldn't be

31:41

driving. I was not stable

31:43

enough to be driving, but I sat there

31:45

and I went, but I got my kids

31:47

here. My kids need to get home. I'm

31:50

driving. Like what am I supposed to do?

31:52

Like in, right? And in the same

31:54

way, like before I left to go take them to

31:56

hockey, I went, I have to take my kids to

31:58

hockey, but I also have to drink. So both are

32:00

going to happen. Does that

32:02

remind you of anybody else in your life? Yeah. My

32:06

poor dad. It's exactly the

32:08

same situation. Yeah. My

32:11

dad was easy to forgive. Did

32:14

you forgive him in person? Like,

32:18

did you have a conversation with him? I

32:20

said to my dad one day, you know, I said something.

32:22

My dad, mom told me that she used

32:24

to get this, this neighbor down the street to

32:26

come and check in on us at your place,

32:29

because I was saying to my mom, mom, it's

32:31

crazy that you let us go there. Like it

32:33

was so dangerous. And she would say, well, no,

32:35

I had someone come and check in on you,

32:38

which is fascinating. But anyway, so I

32:40

asked my dad and my dad looked

32:43

at me and he

32:45

said, uh, yeah.

32:48

He said, I think

32:50

I was probably in my early

32:52

forties at this point. Anyway, he just said to

32:54

me, he goes, you know, Jen, everything

32:57

that you remember happening when

33:00

you were little, it happened. Wow.

33:05

Well, that's, that's quite an admission. So I

33:07

take it your dad has found sobriety himself.

33:11

Well, no, but at

33:14

the time, I'd never mind at the time, my dad

33:16

was still very active in addiction,

33:18

but he just said, everything

33:21

that you remember happening happened. And

33:23

I'm sorry. That must've been crushing

33:25

in a way just

33:28

to hear him tell the truth. Yeah,

33:32

it was very, I could still make it. It's

33:34

the one probably part of this interview that's making

33:36

me teary, like just to think that he was

33:38

able to just go like, everything

33:41

is the truth. Then the butt

33:43

came, right? He said, and I'm

33:45

sorry, all of that happened, but

33:48

you need to, to move on with your

33:50

life, you need to, you

33:52

need to get through it or over it or past

33:54

it. Cause at that point, my dad knew that I

33:56

was having some troubles. Did your

33:58

father apologize to you? I

34:01

don't know if you were looking for it, but did he say

34:03

sorry? Yeah. Yeah. I

34:06

mean, he said everything that you remember happened, happened

34:08

and I am sorry, but you

34:11

need to move on. Yeah.

34:13

How did you feel when your father said,

34:15

I'm sorry? It made me feel a little

34:17

bit relieved. And did that make

34:19

it easier to move on to the

34:22

next person on your list?

34:24

Yeah. Which I guess was your mom. For

34:27

sure. Yeah. My

34:29

conversation with my mom did not go, it didn't

34:32

go that well. In fact, I knew that it wouldn't go

34:34

that well. So I actually brought her into a therapy session

34:36

with me when I was in rehab. Suffice

34:39

to say that at the end of

34:42

the session, my mom left and

34:44

my therapist looked at me and said, Jen, this

34:46

is one of those situations where you just have

34:49

to recognize that your mom's not going to be

34:51

able to give you what you're looking for. You're

34:54

going to have to find it from within.

34:57

She's not going to acknowledge. So

35:00

I did. I ended up finding it from within

35:02

for sure. And you forgave her too.

35:06

I did. Absolutely. My mom

35:08

was a lovely person. I mean, she,

35:10

she really, she really was. She just,

35:13

she did the best with what she had at the

35:15

time. Since she didn't admit her

35:17

role, how

35:19

did she take forgiveness? Well,

35:26

you know, again, I

35:28

don't, I don't know if my, I

35:30

don't know if my mom ever knew that there

35:38

was anything to be

35:40

forgiven. Yeah. Isn't

35:42

that crazy? Like because she

35:44

was so logical reason

35:47

minded, she didn't have the same

35:49

kind of emotions that the rest

35:52

of us have. My

35:54

mom ended up getting Khorsakov's

35:56

dementia. That's dementia from drinking.

36:00

Exactly. Another word for it

36:02

is called wet brain. And

36:04

so yeah, so what happened is my

36:06

mom, after she retired as a judge,

36:08

when she was 75 years old, she

36:10

definitely just started sort of drinking more

36:12

and more. And then COVID

36:14

happened. And so she was

36:16

definitely locked up in her condo by

36:18

herself and the booze store was across

36:20

the street. And it was the only

36:22

thing she did. And she ended up,

36:25

she probably drank far more than we

36:27

ever recognized. And then she started

36:29

having alcohol and do

36:31

seizures. Last May, she ended up

36:33

getting another bout of COVID and

36:36

she was taken to the hospital and she just couldn't, she

36:39

couldn't recuperate from it. My

36:41

mom died, I was holding her hand. What kind

36:43

of emotions did you have when she passed? Yeah,

36:46

nothing but love for her. Yeah.

36:51

And so were you able

36:53

to forgive her? Yeah,

36:56

she was. Yep. I

36:58

did forgive my mama. Yeah. And

37:03

so next on your list, I

37:06

guess, are

37:08

your abusers. Those

37:12

must be the toughest people to forgive.

37:16

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. And then I went

37:18

to, right, I went to rehab and I

37:20

started looking at all this stuff and I,

37:23

and I really did, I started to realize

37:25

that these people also

37:27

had their own nature and

37:29

nurture and I couldn't

37:31

possibly try to understand where,

37:34

where they were coming from and why they would have made

37:36

those choices that they did to take advantage of me. I

37:39

mean, I, I, you know, for

37:41

me, it became like that

37:43

unconditional love. I was

37:45

starting to have it like for everybody. And

37:47

so it didn't matter that that's what

37:51

they had chosen to do because if I had

37:53

been in their shoes, maybe I would have done

37:55

it to 10 kids. I don't know. Do you

37:57

know what I'm saying? It's like that saying like

37:59

until I actually walk in your shoes, I should

38:01

not judge you for nothing because I do

38:04

not know what it feels like to be you. And

38:06

so, and so I found myself, you

38:08

know, it wasn't actually that hard once

38:11

I got to that point to

38:13

pass it on to those, to

38:15

those boys. This

38:18

is fully your story, but

38:20

it's hard for me to hear you

38:22

say that they don't necessarily

38:24

need to be held accountable for their

38:27

actions. Right. That's

38:31

difficult. But

38:33

I understand what you're saying. Yeah.

38:36

It's, and I think it's why this is a

38:39

tough thing

38:41

to talk about because I, I feel like

38:44

if I, it's like I'm

38:46

condoning it. It's like I'm saying

38:48

it's okay, but

38:50

I'm not. You're not. No, I'm

38:53

not. But I'm also saying, what does punishment going

38:55

to do? What is that going

38:57

to do? I mean, certainly for

38:59

me, it wasn't going to do

39:01

anything. It was an, it's an inner job. Healing

39:04

is an inner job no

39:06

matter what. Boy, that's a tough lesson. And

39:09

so given that these boys,

39:11

now men are still in your

39:14

life, did you have a chance to

39:16

confront them? A couple of

39:18

years ago, I did find out that

39:21

the younger brother had brain cancer and

39:24

that he only had a couple of

39:26

years to live. Were you like, yes.

39:30

No, I wasn't,

39:33

but that's very funny. Everybody asks, as

39:36

you can imagine, my brother, the protector,

39:38

when he found out that he had

39:40

brain cancer, that was his reaction. Yeah.

39:42

Like good. Yeah. Karma baby. Yeah.

39:46

I think as I'd already gotten, I'd already

39:48

forgiven, you know, I'd already gotten to that

39:50

point where I try

39:52

to love everyone unconditionally and I

39:55

fits in with my, my spiritual principles.

39:57

And so I couldn't be happy. at

40:00

the fact that somebody was going to die.

40:02

It just wasn't in me.

40:04

I couldn't do it. But anyway, my girlfriend,

40:06

you know, she came a few times over

40:08

those years to visit him and he was

40:10

getting worse and worse. And I actually one

40:12

day said like, the next time you come

40:14

into town, could I actually go out for

40:17

dinner with you guys? Oh my God. Okay.

40:19

So did your friend know about the abuse?

40:21

She did. She did. Did she say, Jen,

40:23

what on earth are you thinking? A

40:26

little bit. And what were

40:29

you thinking? Well, I mean,

40:31

if you think about it from her perspective, though,

40:33

I think that she, she loved

40:35

her brother, you know. This

40:38

is your friend who was the sister

40:40

of these two boys. Yes. Yes.

40:43

It was her brother that was coming into

40:45

town and he was passing away

40:48

from cancer. And I asked

40:50

her if I could go for dinner with them. I

40:53

do think she was a little bit

40:55

shocked, but I also think she was

40:57

very overwhelmed with love

41:00

and joy because

41:03

me forgiving her brother was just so

41:05

powerful for how she felt about her

41:07

brother and he was dying. She

41:10

wasn't concerned there was going to be a confrontation.

41:12

No. You told her that you were going to

41:14

forgive him. Yeah. I just said, I just

41:16

want to see him. I want to see your brother before

41:18

he dies. That's what I said. She

41:21

said, for sure. You should come. Why did you want

41:23

to see him? I

41:27

think that the

41:31

shorter, like the smaller answer to that is

41:33

that I believed that in my heart I

41:36

had forgiven him and that I had

41:38

nothing but love for him, but

41:40

I actually wanted to test it. I wanted to

41:42

see, do I mean this? Like

41:44

am I talking the talk? Am I walking the walk?

41:46

Like am I actually going to be able to go

41:49

and sit down with this gentleman and not

41:51

have any anger or resentment

41:54

or pain associated with sitting

41:56

in front of him for an hour? This

41:59

is kind of like a graduation. ceremony for yourself.

42:02

There you go. Yeah. Like

42:05

if you can get through this with the

42:07

right emotions, you've let it all

42:09

go. Yeah.

42:12

You've healed and moved on. Yeah. So

42:15

your friend told her brother that you

42:17

were invited to come to dinner. What

42:19

was his response? I

42:21

honestly don't know. Now I also have

42:24

to say at this point that he

42:26

was starting to have significant symptoms of

42:28

having brain cancer. I have no

42:31

idea how much he remembered from his

42:33

past or even from last week. This

42:35

is also I suppose a fascinating part

42:37

of this. Again, I never confronted this

42:39

individual. He never admitted to me

42:41

that he had done anything. He had seen

42:43

me for years over the years, right? And

42:46

we would high five and clink beers. That's

42:48

what we did. He was scot-free. Yeah.

42:51

Yeah. I mean if I

42:53

have to say I've never even really thought about

42:55

this as you do, you're making me think about

42:57

certain things, but you know, do I wish that

42:59

I had at least had him acknowledge it? There's

43:01

also I think a bit of a fear. What

43:03

happens if I had sat down when I had

43:05

a moment alone with him and said, you know,

43:07

by the way, I remember all

43:09

the things you did to me and

43:12

I forgive you for them. What happens if you looked back

43:14

at me and said, I didn't do anything to you? I

43:17

don't know. I mean, it sounds like a crazy thing, but what

43:21

was the point of that? If

43:23

I'm truly forgiving him

43:26

and it's a job that's done on

43:28

my end, it doesn't matter what he

43:30

says, thinks, or does. It

43:32

really shouldn't. Let's go to the night of the dinner.

43:35

Were you nervous when you met up with them? Yes.

43:38

Were you not sure how

43:40

things were going to play out? Yes.

43:44

Again, I was really testing myself,

43:47

you know, and I'm obviously, you

43:49

know, I'm a very kind, gentle

43:51

human being. Like I didn't

43:53

think I was going to jump across the table or anything,

43:55

but I was

43:57

just really, really hoping that I was going to be able

43:59

to. to look him in the eye and

44:02

feel nothing but what I thought I felt

44:04

for him, which is just love as another

44:06

spiritual being on this universe. Like I wanted

44:09

to feel no anger. And so I think

44:12

I was nervous that I wasn't going to. And I

44:15

didn't want that. So you went to

44:17

dinner, you sat down at the restaurant.

44:20

Yep. What emotions did you have? Well,

44:25

I would say, I'm super

44:27

honest again, I'd say, I think I was

44:29

a bit uncomfortable. I would think

44:31

so. Yeah. I'm

44:33

also, you know, not to make too much of a joke

44:35

of it, but I can't even have a drink. Because

44:38

I'm a recovering alcoholic. And so

44:40

there was kind of nothing to take

44:42

the edge off. Kind of get it, got to get

44:44

through this all on your own. Oh

44:47

yeah. Yeah, it's kind of funny.

44:49

Definitely my, my heart was racing and

44:52

I was uncomfortable. But

44:54

I have to say that as I sat there with him,

44:56

I started to definitely get more

44:59

and more comfortable as the, you know, we

45:01

were there for maybe two hours, you know,

45:03

and as the evening progressed and we shared

45:05

food, right? We, we actually decided to get

45:07

things to share. So I was taking food

45:10

off of the same plate as him. And

45:12

we were talking about how tasty things were.

45:14

I mean, it was a very casual, there

45:16

was no heavy discussions that were being had

45:18

at this dinner at all. And he probably

45:21

wasn't at that point mentally capable of having

45:23

anything too, too serious of a discussion. But

45:25

so it was, it was very light, you

45:27

know? And I think

45:29

this is another part. I mean, when

45:32

I talk about like, I went to the cottage with

45:34

him and I was at his house with him for

45:36

all those years. Like he, he taught me how to

45:38

fill up fish and how to canoe. And, you

45:40

know, he, he also did

45:43

a lot for me. I, he, I,

45:45

it sounds, I know even coming out of my

45:47

mouth, it sounds strange, but he loved me, right?

45:50

He was, he was my caretaker at

45:52

some level. I don't know

45:54

if he loved you. No,

45:56

you don't like that one. You're

46:00

not comfortable with that one. I just want to

46:02

go on record. I'm not comfortable with that one.

46:05

Okay, fair enough. That's

46:08

good. That's okay. But

46:11

either way, I chose to

46:13

make it an evening for

46:15

him where he knew that I

46:18

appreciated the things that he had taught me

46:20

as a kid. Kid, that

46:23

the relation, I don't know, it sounds weird. The

46:25

guy was dying. He was

46:27

dying. I don't want to make a dying

46:29

man feel shitty. I wanted that evening to

46:31

be enjoyable for him. You

46:36

are a good person because I don't know that I...

46:38

I don't know. Controlled is

46:40

not the right word. I don't know that I could

46:42

have been as magnanimous as you. Yeah,

46:48

here's a therapy. It's selfish.

46:50

It's selfish, right? Being

46:52

able to behave in that way is actually

46:54

selfish because it makes me feel

46:57

better about me. And

46:59

you know what? That is okay. I don't think that's

47:02

being selfish. You're the one who

47:04

is abused. You have

47:06

every right to be selfish. You're the one on

47:08

this long healing

47:10

journey. This is all about you.

47:17

So it's interesting, right? Because what

47:19

was healing for me at that point

47:22

was to make him feel good

47:24

about himself. Well, hats off

47:26

to you. It really was. Because

47:29

you know what else too, Ben? If you really think

47:31

about it, if I had sat down there, done

47:34

it differently, and somehow tried just

47:37

to even get in one or two little shots,

47:39

you know, like, fuck you, I know what you

47:41

did to me kind of stuff. Right? Yeah,

47:44

that would feel so good. But I know, but... No! It

47:51

wasn't gonna make... But what was it gonna

47:53

do? First of all, it was gonna make

47:55

the dinner far more uncomfortable than anybody ever

47:57

intended. I left that dinner

47:59

feeling. Like I had taken the higher

48:01

road, I didn't need to leave

48:03

their feeling right about anything. That wasn't the

48:06

point. If I wanted to leave their feeling

48:08

peace, and joy, and all

48:10

those lovely things, I did not want those

48:13

other emotions. I

48:15

don't think anybody would say you didn't earn the right to

48:17

tell them off at that moment. But

48:21

your healing journey is

48:23

so, so elevated. I'm

48:26

really impressed, you know, you're

48:28

looking out for yourself by taking this high road.

48:32

Did you actually get to say the

48:34

words I forgive you to him? No.

48:38

No. Did you want to? Do you

48:40

feel that this would have been more meaningful if you

48:42

had or is saying it in

48:44

your heart and feeling it enough? So

48:47

we had our dinner and we, you know,

48:49

spend our time talking or whatever. And then

48:51

as we went to leave, like

48:53

I knew in my heart, this was going to be the

48:55

last time that I saw him. And

48:59

yeah, and I, and I, I gave

49:01

him a big hug. I

49:03

gave him a big hug. Yeah. And you

49:05

know, I actually, I definitely didn't say I

49:07

forgive you because it just wasn't even appropriate

49:11

or whatever. It wasn't even part of

49:13

any discussion. And I don't,

49:15

I honestly don't know. I may have said, I love you.

49:18

I knew that I had

49:20

not only made

49:25

the rest of his journey here a

49:29

little bit lighter because he

49:31

knew he abused me. Right. We're

49:34

clear about that. This dude was like 12 to 18. There's

49:38

no chance he didn't know. And

49:41

so my kindness towards him would

49:43

have made the rest of his

49:45

journey on this universe better. And

49:48

maybe that's putting too much into the power I

49:50

have, but that's how I feel about it. But

49:53

it also, again, the healing

49:56

that came to me after

49:58

that experience was. very profound,

50:02

right? It just was. Well,

50:05

that's the part I'm interested in. Yeah.

50:07

Yeah. Some

50:09

people think I'm just crazy, Ben. I'm

50:12

crazy. Not

50:16

crazy. You have been through it and

50:18

whatever it takes for you to heal,

50:22

I think you've earned it. Do

50:24

you, do you think that the evening might've played

50:26

out differently if it were just the two of

50:29

you having dinner alone and

50:31

his sister, your friend was not there?

50:37

Yeah. Yeah, I do actually. I do. I

50:39

think that that probably would have been opportunity

50:41

to have a more, more

50:43

serious, I guess, and a more, um,

50:46

open discussion about things. And I was, and I would

50:48

have been prepared to have it. I would have still

50:50

led with nothing but love, but I, but I would

50:52

have had it. But you know what? I wouldn't have,

50:55

I don't think I would have done that. I

50:58

just don't think that I would have had it

51:00

in me to just, I

51:02

don't even know what to say, would call them up

51:04

and say, Hey, do you want to come for dinner

51:07

with me? It just, it just kind of, all the,

51:09

all the pieces fell into place that they were going

51:11

for dinner. And I'm like, I'm just going to hop

51:13

in on that. That's what I got.

51:15

I didn't, I honestly didn't have more than that to

51:18

be able to, to put myself, I

51:20

think I would have felt quite vulnerable to be honest

51:22

with you in that situation.

51:24

Just one-on-one. For sure. Do you

51:27

think he's even aware of the trauma that he caused you? I

51:31

really don't think so. No, I don't think he's

51:34

aware at all. No. What's

51:37

going on with the other brother? Well,

51:41

that's an interesting thing. He's, he's still alive

51:43

and well. And, um, yeah,

51:50

Ben, at one point in time,

51:52

this was again in my forties.

51:55

It was after

51:57

the anger had started to build up and I'd figured

51:59

out. healing

56:00

is not going to be exactly the same as

56:02

somebody else's might have been in your shoes. Yeah.

56:07

That sounds about right. Yeah,

56:10

it sounds about right. But I guess I feel

56:12

like I feel like having a little disclaimer, you

56:14

know, like, what's the right

56:17

word? It's just, it's, it

56:19

shouldn't happen. Little girls shouldn't be abused. I

56:21

mean, it shouldn't happen. It affected me

56:23

and my life for so long.

56:27

And by doing what I

56:29

did, I am not taking away that from anybody

56:31

else. And I'm also, and I guess this is

56:33

the point is that I'm not taking it away

56:36

from myself either. Right. I'm

56:38

still allowing it to be a terrible experience that

56:42

I do not condone. But

56:44

this is how I found my healing

56:47

and yeah. Well,

56:49

good for you. That'd be

56:51

for you. What a journey. Yeah.

56:54

I know it's not completely over and probably never

56:56

will be, but you seem

56:59

to have reached a point where you're

57:01

good. I'm

57:03

good. Yeah, I'm

57:05

good. I'm good. I still know

57:07

one more question that's to come because you always ask it.

57:10

My life now really is like a gazillion

57:12

times better than what it was when I

57:14

was holding on to resentment and when I

57:16

was drinking so much and numbing out all

57:19

the time. Right. I know

57:21

I feel all my feels and I'm, I

57:23

have two beautiful children and I

57:26

feel like I want to talk about them

57:28

just a little bit. They save my

57:30

life, right? Like if I didn't have kids,

57:32

I do not know how I would have

57:34

gotten out of that abyss of

57:37

addiction. I really don't. And

57:39

then along the way, they sure also kept me

57:41

sober. You know, we joke around how sometimes are

57:43

when you're in early recovery and it's just so

57:45

hard not to drink and young kids can be

57:47

a little bit frustrating. And

57:49

so sometimes, right, they might have

57:52

triggered me to feel like,

57:54

oh my gosh, I wish I could just have a

57:56

drink right now, you know, but, but at the same

57:58

time, they were. absolutely is such

58:00

a big part of why I was

58:03

able to stay sober from their, from

58:05

their love and from knowing that I

58:07

have these two people that I, I

58:09

needed to, to be responsible to and

58:12

for. And there was funny times and

58:15

hard times that I mean, I can remember early on when

58:17

I would get frustrated and my younger kid would look up

58:19

at me and he'd go, go, mom, I

58:21

think you need to go to a meeting. Thanks

58:26

dude. And at the time I'd be like,

58:28

you're not telling me when I'd be like, Oh

58:31

yeah, you're right. I do need

58:33

to go to a meeting, you know, but my,

58:35

my, my kids would check in my coffee mug

58:37

for even into years, Ben, to

58:39

see if there was alcohol, right? Like I

58:41

really had an impact on my, my kids.

58:43

They're looking out for you. They were

58:45

looking out for me. Actually, a couple of years

58:48

ago, we went to Punta Can on a holiday.

58:50

I actually took their dad as a gift, which

58:52

was lovely. The four of us went and I

58:55

got served tequila by mistake and

58:58

drank it. And it was devastating because I

59:00

had been for seven years. I had tried

59:02

not to drink and there it was. And

59:04

I actually started crying and all three of

59:06

us, it was just me and my children

59:08

at that table. And we all started crying

59:10

because they just knew how hard

59:12

I had tried, you know, not to. And

59:14

my older son was looking things up. He goes, mom,

59:16

listen, just because he had a

59:18

sip by accident, you don't change your sobriety

59:20

date. And everybody that I'm Googling over here,

59:23

it means nothing changes. And you

59:25

know, and they were just both so supportive.

59:27

And then I'm telling you for the rest

59:29

of that trip, every time I ordered a

59:31

Virgin Mojito, they would sip it first because

59:34

they wanted to make sure I wasn't

59:36

getting booze. So they have very much

59:38

been a huge part of my, of

59:40

my healing journey. I can't tell

59:43

you how much feeling that is, that is

59:45

welling up inside of me from this last

59:47

story you've told. Yeah.

59:51

Really touchy. Cool. Yeah. It's

59:53

amazing to have such

59:55

support. Yeah. Your family. Yeah. really

1:00:01

key, but you did it yourself. One

1:00:04

of the things that happens when you're sitting in the recovery

1:00:06

rooms is that every single

1:00:08

person in that room that's a parent

1:00:10

goes, Oh my God, I've fucked up

1:00:12

my children. And any good counselor will

1:00:14

say to you, all you can do

1:00:16

is heal and that will help heal your

1:00:19

kids. That's, that's great advice.

1:00:21

Yeah. Right. And

1:00:23

my kids are, yeah. And my kids are so

1:00:25

good now. Like my kids are, they're

1:00:28

beyond healed. Like they're both very

1:00:30

vocal and emotional and honest and

1:00:32

loving and kind and all the

1:00:34

things I try to be like,

1:00:37

they're just amazing because I've been so vulnerable

1:00:39

with them and I've been so honest with

1:00:42

them. If what it took

1:00:44

for me to get my kids

1:00:46

into such a great position was to go through

1:00:48

some of the hell I had to go through,

1:00:50

it was so worth it. Yeah.

1:00:54

So are you ready for the question? Yeah,

1:00:57

I am. Okay. So what do you

1:00:59

want to tell your secret today? I

1:01:02

wanted to tell my secret because as

1:01:04

I move forward in my journey of

1:01:06

healing, I really believe

1:01:08

that all of us creatures

1:01:10

are perfectly equal regardless of

1:01:12

all the mistakes that we've made or might

1:01:15

make or are going to make and

1:01:17

that we need to love each other

1:01:19

unconditionally and we need to forgive everyone

1:01:22

for things that happen. And if

1:01:24

we do that, maybe we can change our world

1:01:26

a little bit. And our world is really screwed

1:01:28

up right now. That to me

1:01:30

is a message that needs to be spread.

1:01:32

And so I don't know how many people

1:01:35

are going to listen to this, but if

1:01:37

forgiveness is selfish, like we've sort of said,

1:01:39

it's also just so empowering.

1:01:43

So that's why. There's

1:01:55

no question in my mind that your story

1:01:57

will have positive impact on. people.

1:02:00

Good. Then

1:02:02

it was worth it. I just want to thank you

1:02:04

so much for sharing it. You're

1:02:06

very welcome. Thank you for listening. Ooh,

1:02:13

deep breath. You

1:02:15

got through it.

1:02:18

I did. Yeah.

1:02:23

Every step Jen took led her to that dinner where

1:02:26

she could finally, in her heart, release her

1:02:28

abuser. What fortitude and strength

1:02:30

of character she possesses. And

1:02:32

her kids, my goodness, how amazing are they?

1:02:35

As she says, everyone's path will be different, but

1:02:37

I think we can all agree that love

1:02:39

is a universal cure. Jen never

1:02:42

would have faced these trials in the first place, had

1:02:44

there only been more love in her childhood. If

1:02:47

you're a victim of sexual assault, call

1:02:49

the free and confidential National

1:02:52

Sexual Assault Hotline in

1:02:54

the US at 800-656-HOPE.

1:02:59

See pictures of Jen and her family and the lake right

1:03:02

now on Instagram, Facebook, and X. Our

1:03:04

handle is at Secret Room Pod. And

1:03:07

on the next episode of our premium show, The Secret

1:03:09

Room Unlocked with Suzy Lark. Ashley

1:03:12

and Charlotte have been best friends since

1:03:14

college. They were friends through adulthood and

1:03:16

they were close through thick and thin.

1:03:19

Ashley leaned on Charlotte when there

1:03:21

were troubles in her marriage and

1:03:23

she needed her best friend the

1:03:25

most. Well, Charlotte took that information

1:03:27

to try to use it against

1:03:29

the person who trusted her the

1:03:31

most. Join me, Suzy Lark, for

1:03:33

the next Secret Room Unlocked, our

1:03:35

premium version of the podcast, available

1:03:37

on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and patreon.com/

1:03:40

Secret Room. Don't miss the free trial.

1:03:43

And remember how touched you were by Jeremy,

1:03:45

who suffers from Marfan syndrome in episode young

1:03:49

to die. Well, he posted an

1:03:51

audio update to our Facebook discussion group recently. You

1:03:53

might want to check it out. He

1:03:55

tells us about his current condition, his

1:03:57

relationship with his partner, and the

1:03:59

different that your outpouring of support has made in

1:04:01

his life. His GoFundMe account

1:04:04

is still active, and if you'd

1:04:06

like to find it, it's the top search

1:04:08

result if you googled Jeremy TSRP. That's

1:04:11

for the Secret Room podcast. As

1:04:14

always, I want to thank you for being a part of

1:04:16

our community and for showing your

1:04:18

support by downloading the show, subscribing

1:04:20

to The Secret Room Unlocked, and by using

1:04:22

our sponsor codes. Every bit

1:04:24

helps keep this ever going. It's not possible without

1:04:26

you. Thanks also this week to

1:04:28

Suzy Lark and Luna Patel for their work on your favorite

1:04:31

indie podcast The Could. Thanks also

1:04:33

to Breakmaster Cylinder for the music. See

1:04:35

you in just two short weeks for another amazing

1:04:37

secret. This is The Secret Room, a

1:04:40

podcast about the stories no one ever tells. I'm

1:04:43

Ben Hahn. Thanks

1:04:58

for watching.