0:01

This is the Silver Fox Hustle podcast

0:03

. This

0:33

is the football talk episodes and

0:35

share the love with your friends and

0:37

family . We are out on Spotify , apple Podcasts

0:40

, youtube and the Works , obviously . And today

0:42

we've got a good one , as usual , and we've

0:45

got the head of coach education here

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in Singapore , the Football Association of

0:49

Singapore . Our friend

0:51

over here is a former professional in the English

0:53

League and he played for clubs like Bolton Wanderers

0:55

, sheffield Wednesday and the

0:57

Works , and he started coaching in 2010

1:00

, I believe , and he is a coach , or

1:02

he was a coach developer , with the PFA from

1:04

2021 . We'll talk a little bit

1:06

more about our friend across

1:08

, mr Hasnial Jofri . Welcome

1:11

to the podcast , my friend .

1:12

Yeah , good morning , glad to be here . Thank

1:14

you for inviting me . I think we've four

1:17

months in now . I think we spoke early doors around coming

1:19

in to have a chat and discuss football

1:21

and coaching , to have

1:24

a chat and discuss football

1:26

and yeah , coaching , yeah

1:31

.

1:31

and let's , before we talk about coaching and you know what we're here for

1:33

how was last night ? I hear

1:35

?

1:35

you had a very good night last night and tell us why ? Yes , obviously

1:37

. I'm a huge Manchester United fan and finally

1:40

things yeah , they kind of they

1:43

came all came to fruition at one point , so

1:45

they got a 4-0 win against Everton

1:47

. Managed to watch the game a bit late , however

1:50

, it was good to see the club

1:52

moving forward , with a new manager

1:54

, new expectations , new

1:57

ambitions . Hopefully

1:59

it's a good sign for the future .

2:02

Yeah , and I think I know your son is playing

2:04

for man U and obviously he's loaned out . Talk to

2:06

us a little bit about he's Sonny , right

2:08

, sonny yeah he's

2:11

19 .

2:11

Sonny's been at Manchester United since the age

2:13

of 7 I believe , so

2:16

a long time . Most of his life is

2:18

probably all he's known . And , yeah , I

2:20

think this year he's had an opportunity

2:22

to go out on loan and play first-team football . So

2:25

I think between the club himself , his agents

2:27

, they all

2:29

decided that I think the best thing for this year was

2:31

to get out and play men's football in

2:33

the lower leagues and go against the

2:35

big men , maybe the ussel

2:37

and bustle of league football week in , week out

2:39

, saturday , tuesday , saturday Tuesday and get

2:41

the bumps and the bruises and the broken noses

2:44

and maybe the things that he wouldn't get at

2:46

Manchester United now . So I think he's

2:49

having a wonderful experience right now . I

2:52

think he's played the last 10 or 11 games on the trot

2:54

and I'm really proud of him , how he's

2:56

coping dealing with league

2:58

football at League 2 , which is he

3:01

can be brutal . I think at the weekend he

3:03

was telling me all the I guess , the headers

3:05

that he tried to win against a 6 foot 7 guy

3:07

and no , he's . I'm very proud of him , he's

3:09

. He's doing all the right things to forge

3:12

a career in the game . So , yeah , very proud

3:14

he's . Manchester United are doing well

3:16

looking after him . He's just signed a new

3:19

big three year and I think this

3:21

step now will hopefully , when he comes

3:23

back into the next season , that

3:26

he puts himself in a position where , you know

3:28

, he either gets loaned out again to

3:30

a higher club or the club might kind

3:32

of keep him in the building for some opportunities

3:35

at Old Trafford .

3:38

You have interesting roots here . Yeah , Tell

3:40

us a little bit about that . I mean family

3:42

, you know .

3:43

My dad was Singaporean . He's sadly passed away

3:45

. However , yeah

3:48

, I mean huge family here and

3:51

getting to know more of them whilst they've been here for the last four months

3:53

. So family all over Singapore

3:55

, I guess from the age of

3:57

10 . I think it was the first time I came here and

4:00

from then I've been coming on holidays with the family

4:03

here and there . But

4:05

I guess being here now working

4:07

has allowed me to have some proper time and understand

4:09

his family my family who

4:13

are Singaporean right . So I

4:15

feel a massive connection here . Now I think like even

4:17

each day that I'm here , I feel

4:19

like I can feel my dad's here , I can feel

4:21

like the whole family's here . I feel like I'm

4:23

Singaporean . I'm

4:25

out in Salita Hills , pongal , east

4:27

Coast . I've got a niece

4:29

who's a lawyer who works down near me

4:32

where I live in Tanjong Pagar . Everywhere

4:34

in Singapore I've got family , so

4:36

I'm very well connected in terms of the

4:38

I guess the culture and

4:40

the I guess the life here .

4:42

Yeah , I just wanted to ask you about

4:44

you know the past what four or five months or so

4:46

here and about the culture , and I

4:48

think that's no problem for you already you know . I think you

4:50

know the people well and you know food-wise

4:52

as well , so no problems there . Now

4:54

let's get into it right , hasni , you are now

4:57

the head of coach education at

4:59

FAS . Now just tell

5:01

us what is the role , the

5:03

, the job scope you know for people watching

5:05

and listening to this ? And , and specifically

5:08

to your role , what , what

5:10

do you have to do in terms of

5:12

that role itself ?

5:13

yeah , I mean , it's an interesting question . Um

5:16

, however , if you look at the , the job title

5:18

, the role itself is is to come in and

5:20

oversee the coaching qualifications in Singapore

5:23

. So if you look at

5:25

, I guess , the standardisation

5:27

across the board , from the level one courses

5:29

right through up to the pro licence , is having

5:32

an oversight and a view on what

5:34

is happening at each course , each level , and

5:36

making sure there's competencies and

5:39

there's a framework around each level , of

5:41

course , that we're delivering in Singapore

5:43

. So , in a nutshell , that's on

5:46

a piece of paper that's the

5:48

job , but , yeah , I think

5:50

there's plenty of nuances and

5:52

fluidity within the role to

5:55

not just oversee the coaching

5:57

courses . It's to be around , like you say , the

5:59

people on the ground to

6:01

understand the level of football here , to understand

6:04

how football is operated here . Yeah

6:07

, and I guess the different dynamics that I

6:09

guess that it poses in Singapore

6:11

.

6:12

Was there like a set when

6:15

FS approached you and stuff like that ? Was

6:17

there like a set , kpi , a goal , an objective

6:19

like set in stone ? Like you know , you

6:21

have to achieve certain things during

6:23

your two years or so here I

6:26

mean there's always going to be kpis

6:28

and things set in stone .

6:29

However , I think the the overall

6:31

reason why I came here was was to

6:33

bring an influence of of my journey

6:36

, my experiences , into singapore . So

6:38

I guess , if you look at it from a kpi point

6:40

of view , um , from covid , there's been

6:42

an issue with getting courses , courses

6:45

done and completed and

6:47

, you know , turning up into Singapore recognising

6:49

there's a lot of people who love to get on coaching courses , so

6:52

it was how we were going to adjust , I

6:54

guess , into making

6:56

sure everybody's , you know , got an opportunity

6:58

to coach and whatever level it is , we've

7:01

got to try and find a way of getting courses out and making

7:03

sure the public , the , the

7:05

professionals , whoever they are , that they're

7:07

not , uh , turned away because we can't

7:09

do a course it's . We have to make sure that we can get

7:11

courses up and running . Um

7:13

then , I guess , across that it's more , it's

7:17

making sure that we are . We are um

7:19

, up to levels , up to standards , across , I

7:22

guess , southeast asia . Um , if

7:24

you look at af sorry , the

7:26

Confederation , in terms of what

7:30

the requirements are and competencies , is making

7:32

sure that we are aligned and

7:35

we're not missing anything in terms of whether

7:37

it be coaching quality , whether it be coaching

7:39

craft . It's just making sure that we are

7:42

up to speed and then on the pulse

7:44

with what's happening .

7:45

Yeah , you know you've been here

7:47

for a couple of months , from August

7:49

, right Was it August or August , right ? So

7:52

you've walked the grounds , obviously , for the past

7:54

few months . You watched games , you watched youth

7:57

games , you watched the SPL as well

7:59

. You saw coaches in action on

8:01

the ground , you talked to people . Obviously

8:03

, what is your impression

8:05

of the coaching scene here in Singapore ? Be frank

8:07

, be honest .

8:08

Honestly , I'm going to

8:10

be honest , it's amazing because I see there's

8:14

a real passion , there's a passion for

8:16

football here , a huge passion which

8:19

is it's a culture for me , the

8:24

passion , of football . It seems to be that everybody's got a team they support , everybody's

8:26

got an idea of how to play the game , everybody's got an opinion , which is

8:28

fantastic . The dedication

8:31

is there . I see , I've been like you say . I've been

8:33

out and about weekends , from morning to

8:35

evening , weekdays . Football

8:38

is happening all over . Singapore so there's dedication

8:40

there , there's no doubt about it . There's people who are very

8:43

keen to have an influence

8:45

on Singapore football . So I think

8:47

, honestly , I see there's an

8:50

absolute and

8:52

it's hard . This is hard . Right , it's such a small

8:54

place , but I think there's a huge

8:56

benefit here . Right , it's a small place and there's

8:58

a lot of football happening . So

9:01

there's no doubt about it . There's passion , there's dedication

9:03

, there's

9:07

there's an opinion which I think is really important

9:10

in football that everybody's different , everybody believes different

9:12

things . But I think this is when I see it not

9:14

everybody agrees and I think that's a . That's a real

9:16

positive thing . Quality wise

9:18

.

9:19

You talked about passion and and , obviously

9:21

, and and I , I think it's , it's it , you're , you're

9:23

right , you know , there's always going to be passion for

9:25

the game , love for the game , and that's why there are opinions

9:28

, different opinions coming from different people , right ? How

9:30

about quality-wise ? And again

9:32

, it's very subjective , right . What's

9:35

a good coach , for example

9:37

? Right ? So , in that sense , what

9:39

have you seen ?

9:41

I've seen quality Like honestly , I'm not going

9:43

to lie . I think

9:45

there's like I say , when you've got something that becomes something inside you

9:47

that you want you , that person wants to do , so well

9:49

it comes out . Now there's

9:52

different areas of the game , so I you know I

9:54

can break this up . So if you look at the grassroots

9:56

um framework , so back

9:59

home grassroots very , very strong , strong

10:01

, fantastically supported

10:04

financially by

10:06

the government , by the FAs , by

10:08

everybody there's a huge , huge

10:11

infrastructure back home in terms of the grassroots

10:13

and I think you have expertise

10:15

in that area . So what

10:17

I would say is we have to be careful

10:19

of and this is where it comes back

10:22

to the coaching courses and licences is

10:24

that there's a huge demand for

10:26

grassroots football here and we've got to

10:28

make sure , from what I'm seeing is that there's

10:30

passion , there's dedication , but let's make sure it's

10:32

aligned to grassroots football . So

10:35

, for example , here , which is a

10:37

little bit different to back home , people in

10:39

the UK are happy to have a grassroots

10:41

course which would then have specific bespoke

10:44

add-ons if that makes sense

10:46

for them to sit in that world

10:48

and be happy to stay in that world and actually be experts

10:50

in the grassroots . Here's a little bit

10:52

different . So you

10:54

have grassroots football , which is

10:56

a huge demand , but then we're having

10:58

coaches that are going through the ladder from

11:01

C to B to A and not necessarily

11:03

an A-licensed coach , is going to be an expert at grassroots

11:05

, because the intentions of an A-licensed

11:07

coach is potentially going to be working with elite

11:10

football or senior football . So

11:12

making sure , where does

11:14

this all sit within all , I

11:16

guess , the ecosystem in Singapore ? So

11:18

I see when you talk about quality

11:20

, I think there's quality there . I think what

11:22

we need to do is just we

11:25

need to find a way of making sure that grassroots coaches

11:27

feel valued , they feel

11:29

there's an expertise there and it doesn't

11:31

need to be a jump to run through licences or

11:33

qualifications . Actually , what

11:35

we need to do is try and find a way of upskilling

11:38

grassroots coaches and making them experts

11:40

in that area . So

11:43

, in the end , the young players who are coming through we want

11:45

Singapore to have numbers

11:48

of players coming through is actually they fall in love

11:50

with the game because , they've got expert coaches

11:52

who are parents , most of them but

11:55

they have a passion to support and develop them

11:57

young people . So it's not about

11:59

winning and it's not about 11 v 11 . It's

12:01

not about this match of the day , coaching

12:04

, I call it . It's there and we all have

12:06

it inside us because we all just talked about

12:08

man United and things like that . But we've

12:10

got to be careful how we're treating our young people and

12:12

they are young people and we want to foster that love

12:15

and that care . So the quality , if

12:18

I'm honest with you , it's there

12:20

right . It's how we can get some expertise

12:22

in that arena and for

12:25

that to be it's own world and

12:27

it's fine . And , by the way , you don't need to have

12:29

an , a licence , to work in grassroots . I

12:31

think that's where A licence coaches

12:34

. Again going back to it , they sit

12:36

in an area for a reason because they're

12:38

aspiring to work with older people , senior

12:41

guys around winning games . So

12:43

I think that , for my point of view , looking

12:46

back with the parallels of England and UK

12:48

, is that everything is fine

12:50

If you want to be an expert

12:52

grassroots coach . There's a lot

12:54

of information there , there's a lot of quality around

12:57

it , there's this support that actually you don't

12:59

need to jump through qualifications . You

13:01

can find the right information and be inspired

13:03

to stay there .

13:05

Let me throw this at you , right , grassroots

13:08

coach , I'm not talking about in Singapore , I'm talking about in general , right , and

13:10

you know the lower licences

13:12

, if you want to call it CEO or whatever , do you think they are

13:14

underpaid ? Especially , you

13:16

know those because you're working with the younger

13:18

ones and they're the foundations right

13:21

, it's a great question .

13:23

So here we go again . So from my understanding

13:25

here in Singapore is that these pro-licensed

13:27

and A-licensed coaches working in

13:29

grassroots Now again you've got to be

13:31

careful is that it seems

13:33

to be that A-licensed , pro-licensed coaches

13:36

will get more money . So that means

13:38

that I don't know they

13:40

can get more money , can work in grassroots football .

13:42

Because of the certifications

13:44

that they've got .

13:45

Right , yeah , so they've got this qualification that deems them

13:47

to have more money . So that

13:49

can be a problem , right ? So you want again going back

13:52

to that question before we've

13:55

got to make sure that we've got experts in the right area

13:58

. So grassroots coaches should be experts and should

14:00

be paid accordingly . For me Back home in

14:02

the UK they are . So

14:06

you have you got fantastic . Um , there's a guy called pete sturgis who's

14:08

just been over in australia . He's

14:11

he's renowned for for

14:13

developing young people . Uh

14:15

, he's a grassroots expert and

14:17

he has a niche . He has a , he has his own ip

14:19

, but he's born through . He loves teaching

14:22

and coaching and being around young people and he's you know , he's born through he loves

14:24

teaching and coaching and being around young people and

14:26

he's doing very well . So I think , to

14:29

answer your question , this is where we've got to

14:31

be careful and I think I give

14:33

one reference . I took a job at Manchester

14:35

United . The

14:37

academy manager was a guy called Brian McClare . He won

14:39

the Premier League with man U . He's an expert . What

14:42

a guy . And I walked in as

14:44

an under 13 14 coach and in

14:46

my head I was aspiring to be this

14:48

I want to be . In my mind

14:51

it was like he's going to think I'm better from the 15s

14:53

and the 16s and the 17s coach and

14:55

I've got a b license and a license and a pro

14:57

license . Thinking , going down that road , he

14:59

thought I thought he would think that'd be , I'd

15:01

be better . And he pulled me one day and

15:03

just said what's , what's your aspirations

15:05

? And I said I want to be under 18

15:07

, I want to be under 21 . He said why ? So

15:10

? I said well , because you know that means you're a better coach

15:12

. And he just stopped me in my tracks . He said no

15:14

, no , no , no , no . I was

15:16

like well , go on . He said well , why can't you

15:18

be the best in the world under 13s , 14s

15:21

? It's such a niche . These young

15:23

people are going through phv and

15:26

peak height velocity . There's many changes

15:28

around these young people . Can you

15:30

, can you be an expert ? I said

15:32

well . I said brian , what about

15:34

if I want to be this ? He said no , we'll

15:36

push you through and you'll , you'll , you'll gain qualifications

15:39

because you're here and that'd be you as a person

15:41

. That you're you're . You

15:43

as a person want to be better anyway . But why can't you

15:45

stay here ? So I said well , what about the money and

15:47

stuff . I asked the question . He

15:52

said did you know our under nine coach is paid as the same as the under 21 coach

15:54

? And I said no , and

15:56

it kind of blew me straight away . It's actually

15:58

he referenced the under nine coach , the same as under

16:00

21 . And

16:05

it made me feel at heart , and that's why I stayed for nearly 10 years , because

16:07

actually I was valued at the , at the area I was in , and I wasn't chasing age

16:09

groups , I wasn't chasing qualifications , I was chasing

16:12

to be the best version of me , um

16:14

. So , yeah , that was a , I think when I , when

16:16

I listened to him , it kind of stuck with me . Actually

16:19

, I don't need to go through qualifications to

16:21

to be an absolute expert . What I need to do is be

16:23

outside on the grass to to um , learn my craft . Yeah , to be an absolute

16:25

expert , what I need to do is be outside on the grass to learn my craft

16:27

, to be around coaching every day and talk

16:30

.

16:30

Now listen , this is a brilliant story

16:32

, right , and I

16:35

think this should go out . And it's

16:37

brilliant because you're right here

16:40

in Singapore and we got to be careful because

16:42

we pay based on certifications

16:44

and that's it right , and this is coming

16:46

from experience , right ? So if , for example

16:48

, if you are , the higher you go , for example

16:51

, you are A , for example , right , and if you are doing

16:53

an under-13 program , you are paid more

16:55

than the person who's coaching

16:58

the under-13 but has a B

17:00

, for example . You know , and I think you're

17:02

spot on on that part and

17:04

chasing the

17:06

papers as well , chasing the certifications . You don't

17:08

have to if you're really good at that , you know

17:10

, and it's brilliant , it's a brilliant story

17:13

.

17:13

I always think back right , so sometimes

17:16

we can all be caught in . It's like

17:18

what's that next person ? doing what can he get

17:20

? What's going on , and sometimes

17:23

you can take the eye off what you actually . What's your

17:25

purpose ? What do you want to do ? If

17:27

you're going back into the coaching world ? Is

17:29

that you , the longer you're involved in football

17:31

, you start to find an area where you

17:33

want to be . So when I

17:35

came out of playing , I was there

17:38

was a choice . There was two pathways I could

17:40

have gone . There was one into first team football

17:42

, which I was offered a job as an

17:44

assistant manager , or the other

17:46

pathway was to go and work with young people Manchester

17:49

United on the third team coach . Very

17:52

different pay at the time . The

17:54

first team was a shortcut to money and

17:56

there , and then

17:58

this other pathway seemed to be right . It

18:00

was like you're going to break yourself down , haz . You're

18:03

going to understand how to coach . You're going

18:05

to learn , you're going to be around young

18:07

people who are going to test you . Yeah .

18:09

It's pretty long term as well , that one yeah .

18:11

So it was like which way are you going to go ? And it was . I wouldn't

18:14

say it was a flick of a coin . However

18:17

, it got to . Actually , I want a career in coaching

18:19

, I want to be the best version of me

18:21

and by , I guess , not taking a shortcut

18:23

and going straight to first team football of going

18:26

into the youth development stage . It was the

18:28

best thing that I ever did because it taught me how to

18:30

coach . It taught me how to behave , it

18:33

got me to understand how young people operate

18:35

and , yeah

18:37

, it gave me a real sense of actually belonging

18:40

into coaching because I wasn't chasing

18:43

again . I wasn't chasing

18:45

to be a first team manager . It was that the

18:47

initial part . I want to be under 15 , under

18:49

17 , under 18 , whatever it might be within

18:52

Manchester United . But

18:54

in the end , after being there over a period of time

18:56

, it made me just fall in love with coaching .

18:58

I just wanted to help . I wanted to support .

19:01

I just thought building relationships was fundamental

19:03

, yeah , in you know , in coaching

19:06

and and getting the best out of

19:08

somebody else . So , and then , if you want

19:10

to pull it back a little bit more , it was like understand

19:12

who you are . So the biggest

19:14

character trait as a coach for me is empathy

19:16

. Is that if you

19:18

, if you have ego as a coach

19:21

? you're going to be in danger because at some

19:23

point it's going to trip you up because you're on this

19:25

mission and it's about you , and

19:27

then all of a sudden , you'll get somewhere and it's not about

19:29

you and you'll collapse . So I

19:32

think , when I look back , throughout

19:35

my journey of playing , throughout my journey of

19:37

coaching and now coach education , I

19:39

always think about what is your purpose and

19:42

who are you as a person as well , so trying

19:44

to find that that guides you and shapes

19:46

you where you want to go yeah , it's

19:49

a wonderful sec .

19:50

To the next question I wanted to ask you right

19:52

, you talk about empathy . We talk about , you

19:54

know , building relationships and getting a good

19:56

set of uh coaches . You

19:59

know building them up and all coach

20:01

developers . They they are key . You know because you them

20:03

up and all Coach developers . They are key . You know because

20:06

earlier on you said about you know

20:08

coaching courses and stuff . So you need these coach

20:10

developers and people watching in and listening

20:12

in as well . They used to be coach instructors , so now

20:14

they're called coach developers just a different word

20:16

. How important

20:19

are they ? You know , and obviously it is

20:21

important , but you know in your mind

20:23

and head and ever since you've got here , how important

20:25

are they in building up this group of

20:27

quality coaches coming up through

20:30

the ranks ?

20:30

They're absolutely huge . You

20:33

can frame the name however you want

20:35

it . However , you would suggest that without

20:39

best practice , without somebody to guide you

20:41

, it's where are you going ? So , coach

20:43

developers , coach educators they

20:46

should provide wisdom . So there's

20:49

knowledge out there and I think knowledge

20:51

is shared and I think there's . I've

20:53

seen something I won't share it today , but I've

20:55

seen something the other day regarding knowledge and wisdom

20:57

, the difference between knowledge and wisdom , and I think

21:00

coach , I think coaches

21:02

, senior coaches , have lots of knowledge

21:04

and delve into the wisdom . I think coach developers

21:06

, they need to have wisdom . That means

21:08

that there needs to be , there needs to be guys

21:10

there , and mentors , the facilitators

21:13

, you understand the arts and crafts

21:15

of coaching and I think that without

21:17

without having a I won't call

21:19

it an umbrella , but without having um , a , a

21:22

strong group of people within any environment

21:24

like such as coach , coach education , coach

21:27

developers , then where , where , where we're

21:29

going right . So what we're trying to teach , what

21:31

we're trying to to get the , the coaches

21:33

to to do on the pitch , off the pitch

21:36

, there needs to be some kind of guidance

21:38

where actually we we have coach

21:40

developers . Actually they're there , the present

21:42

. You understand the , the differences with

21:44

the elite , the grassroots . They've

21:47

got , um , a

21:49

vast amount of knowledge of , of the culture

21:51

. I think that's so important . So , yeah , to

21:53

answer your question , um , there's something

21:55

that I learned very quickly at manchester united , going back

21:58

there , is that we had they weren't

22:00

named coach educators or developers , but they was

22:02

world-class operators and

22:04

they were our mentors . So we had people in

22:06

the system been there quite a long time from sir alex ferguson

22:08

. These guys would always

22:11

be there for touch points , for

22:13

they'd be on like they'd be watching , observing

22:15

, but they were so skilled it was never

22:17

in your face . Let's come have a cup of tea

22:19

, let's have a coffee , let's discuss how

22:22

you're getting on . You know , and it was at

22:24

the time it was like , wow

22:26

, this is incredible , but the way

22:28

they , I guess they helped and supported

22:30

my , my growth and my learning it

22:33

was . It was a real skill , it was a real craft

22:35

it was a real art . So yeah , going back to

22:37

coach development , coach developers

22:39

are key because , like

22:42

I say , I think that it's so important that

22:44

there's a framework or an umbrella

22:46

of key people that can

22:48

guide .

22:49

Yeah , Empathy for coaches

22:51

and wisdom for coach developers . Absolutely , I

22:53

got that Brilliant . The courses

22:55

that you've seen right and obviously you haven't really

22:58

done enough

23:01

in terms of , you know , changing things

23:03

, Because I think you're not here to change things

23:06

like wholesale right . But from the courses that you've

23:08

seen and so far I think you've seen

23:10

quite a lot already , you know , because of the courses

23:12

being run , how has it been so far ? Has

23:14

it been smooth ? I mean , if

23:16

you compare that to what it has been in

23:19

the UK , how has that been ?

23:21

I mean listen , I think , first and foremost

23:23

, there's a huge appetite

23:25

for the courses

23:27

, for the learning , for

23:30

the content . I think it's been really

23:32

, really positive . You're asking me there's a lot

23:34

of fantastic information . I

23:38

see all the coach developers when they've been on course

23:40

leading . It

23:42

comes from a very good place . There's

23:44

a lot of theory . I think I've picked

23:47

up on this pretty early . So

23:49

, listen , there's wonderful things happening at

23:51

all levels , at all courses , and every course I've

23:53

been to I've been so encouraged

23:56

by the energy , the

23:58

opportunity that the coaches are , I

24:00

guess , trying to provide the sorry

24:03

, the coach developers are trying to provide the coaches . On

24:05

course it's really good . I

24:09

think the clear difference is there's

24:11

a huge element now back home

24:13

of practical learning .

24:14

Okay .

24:15

So having a touch point , having a feel

24:17

for coaching , and then coming back

24:19

in into classroom for

24:21

to underpin with the theory , right

24:23

, so what you felt ? What

24:25

was that about ? And then some fantastic like

24:28

what we have in Singapore . Now there's enough

24:30

information to come back to and

24:32

say , look , that was that maybe around communication

24:34

, something around leadership could be our

24:36

organisation , whatever it might be , and you

24:38

know I'm truly- with you with the practical side of things .

24:40

You know , I'm truly with you with the practical side of things

24:42

. You know , and I think you've done it

24:44

and you know over the past week as well , we've

24:46

done a course and I did one course as well You're

24:49

right about the practical bit because you

24:51

know , obviously the theory is going to be there

24:53

, it has to be there , right . But

24:55

you know from experience , when the coaches go out there and

24:57

even the past week when they go out there , they

25:04

didn't realise that it's out

25:06

there on the pitch . And when they came in and we had

25:08

a discussion and said you're right , we

25:11

can have all the theory , the

25:14

E's and acronyms we have so many in Singapore

25:16

, and not only in coaching I'm talking about in general

25:18

but out there on the pitch it's a different

25:20

ballgame . And they realised . And

25:22

when they come in for the courses and then they realised , instead

25:25

of going back and with the keyboard warriors talking

25:27

about this guy is a

25:29

terrible coach and this guy is a good coach , but

25:31

have they been on the field exactly

25:34

? I ?

25:34

mean , that's the beauty of , that's

25:36

why I love the idea of coaching

25:39

. It's actually , I

25:41

think , you've got to think about what you're

25:43

doing . So coaching is practical

25:45

, there's no doubt about it . There's

25:47

different elements of coaching . There's one-on-one coaching

25:49

. There's team coaching . There's unit coaching . There's

25:52

inside . You come in , you can present coaching

25:54

. There's lots of different ways of coaching . However

25:56

, I always think that

25:58

you need to have some kind of

26:00

lifeline or

26:05

bloodline , whatever you want to call it . There's something that you can

26:07

always come back to . So

26:13

you have a moment or a feeling that you don't forget , and it's like that's the

26:15

reasons why I'm on the coaching course and this is the reasons why

26:17

I want to get better . It's actually something

26:19

that you're not so sure about . So I

26:21

mean , listen , there

26:24

was two ways for me when I first came out of football

26:26

. It was all about I know it all . I

26:28

can play football , so I know how to coach the

26:31

wrongest thing that I could have ever thought

26:33

. Right , it really slapped me . It

26:35

got me straight away . It was like there's no chance . You need

26:37

to understand how to coach . That wasn't just

26:40

by being outside and practically coaching . It

26:45

was also going in and educating myself , going to courses , going

26:47

through a journey of learning , and I think that really

26:49

underpinned some of the things that I was going through

26:51

at the time , and I think that's

26:53

so valuable . So I just don't think there's one

26:55

without another . I call it a continuum

26:57

. It's that you can have the theory

26:59

, but you need a practical . Without the practical , you need it both

27:01

and I think you need to go down

27:04

this journey of actually it's not one without

27:06

the other . However , I think , like I say , when

27:08

I look at the courses here , I think that

27:10

we need to get outside . We've got a wonderful

27:12

climate here . It's hot , it

27:15

is hot . However , we

27:19

should be outside . We should be outside , we should be learning

27:21

outside , we can take our tactics boards outside

27:23

, we can do whatever . We've got

27:25

the climate to get outside and

27:27

find ways of maybe talking

27:29

, chewing the

27:31

fat , you know , different things that you

27:33

can have you can find outside on the pitch

27:36

.

27:37

I see the passion when you speak , right , about football and

27:39

coaching . And what have you ? Now ? Let's let you

27:41

talk about positives as well . Loads of positives

27:44

, right . Let's talk about the negatives . You know

27:46

specifics of what

27:48

needs to be done better . You know and again

27:50

, we're not talking about comparing with past

27:52

to the past and whatever , but obviously

27:54

something needs to be done to go forward , obviously , right

27:57

. So what have you seen that

27:59

you know ? You think you know , besides

28:01

the practical bit , right , I think , a little bit more practicality

28:04

into the things of how we do things

28:06

right , what needs to be done better coaching

28:09

wise .

28:09

Yeah , I mean , if we just

28:11

look at the coach development point

28:13

, to start with , I think I've

28:16

come into FAS

28:18

. I'm really enjoying what I'm doing and

28:21

, like I say , a lot of people well , most

28:23

, if not everyone are trying the best and

28:25

working to try and support the

28:27

next generation of coaches . What

28:29

we need to find is frameworks

28:32

.

28:33

Is standardization is a common

28:35

practice amongst the

28:37

courses , certainly around , just

28:39

give me an example of a

28:41

framework that you're talking about , and then to what

28:44

is it ?

28:44

So it could be like , say , if we go back to the practical stuff , right

28:47

, okay . So it's like if we have an , have an

28:49

, a license course running right so it might

28:51

be that we we as as a license

28:53

educators will have a menu

28:55

of coaching sessions that we think that we

28:58

can . We can demonstrate and we can show , and

29:00

we can then ask the , the learners to get

29:02

on and have a go . So it's probably

29:05

one of them . I've come in and there's there's

29:07

a lot of football , there's's a lot of coaching , there's

29:09

this , there's that , but we don't have a pool or

29:11

a menu of coaching sessions that

29:13

actually are A-licensed , standard coaching , same

29:16

as grassroots . So there's like I'm

29:18

saying , if you look at the practical point of view , we could have

29:20

a framework of coaching sessions for

29:22

grassroots coaches which are maybe

29:24

understanding the individual volume

29:27

of play . So , looking at small-sided

29:29

pitches 2v2 , 3v3 , 4v4

29:31

, the element of fun so

29:37

the difference is practically along the coaching licenses . Is that actually

29:40

you can find ? framework which and again it will be standardized

29:42

. So at this moment in time , you know yourself

29:44

, we are

29:46

actively trying to improve the department and

29:50

come together a little bit more in terms of getting together

29:52

and understanding what , what happens on each course

29:54

, um , but then I think we'd

29:56

like to say that if you was to go and do

29:58

a course on beer license chassis , that

30:00

you'd be able to go and pick up yeah the framework

30:03

of beer license course kind of practicals

30:05

, and theory is that we'll have a general

30:07

population

30:09

of coaching sessions and also

30:12

theory .

30:12

Yeah , so

30:14

it's like a framework , and then the library of you know , information

30:18

and drills and whatever to

30:21

make it more consistent .

30:22

I think so . And then again , we're

30:24

under AFC right . So also , we

30:26

have to make sure that we are hitting everything right and , yes , we're in Singapore

30:28

. The we have to make sure that we are hitting everything right and , yes , we're

30:30

in Singapore and we have to make sure it's a Singapore way , and

30:32

that's most important . However , we have to

30:34

make sure that we're hitting AFC

30:37

recommendations and requirements . So I

30:39

think along that we have to be mindful

30:41

and respectful of what's happening , what they want and

30:44

how we in Singapore try and find and

30:46

adapt ways to be creative

30:48

and find our own which is

30:50

unique to Singapore and

30:52

I think that's really exciting . So that's part

30:54

of the initial part of my role

30:56

is actually , what are we

30:58

doing on the grass ? How are we doing it ? And

31:01

then can we standardise it .

31:03

We spoke about some of the positives and the

31:05

negatives , obviously , and the KPI at

31:07

the beginning . So what's the game plan

31:10

going forward ? How many courses are we talking about in the

31:12

next ? It's

31:14

huge , isn't it ?

31:15

I mean , it's probably like any

31:17

country , right everybody wants to be a coach . Everybody

31:19

wants to get on a

31:21

journey and I think that's fantastic and I think

31:23

that we definitely have the

31:25

demand there . There's no doubt about it . We have to be mindful

31:28

of who's coming on the courses and I think what

31:30

we want to do is

31:32

make sure that the public know , and

31:34

everybody know , that this course is specific

31:36

for this and it's going to give you all of

31:38

these things . So if that's what

31:40

you want to do , come on the course . It's not a certificate

31:43

. This is part of learning . Hopefully , you

31:45

step into the arena and you go and

31:47

apply the tools that we're trying to provide you

31:49

on course . So if you're grassroots , get

31:51

into the grassroots arena and go for it and

31:53

have a go . It might be that you find a , a

31:56

niche that you well , you might want to work with

31:58

older people . Then you step to the side and go . How do

32:00

I find that okay ? So , kpis

32:03

, look at looking at um , I guess short term , long

32:05

term , I want to make sure everybody who

32:07

wants to be a coach should be okay to

32:09

get on courses . I think it's really important

32:11

. So I think that's been one

32:13

of the strategies in terms of 2025 is

32:16

that everybody who's applied for courses over the last couple

32:18

of years . We want to make sure that everybody gets

32:20

on the course and experiences , whether

32:23

it be grassroots or an ICC or

32:25

a C or a B or an . A we don't

32:27

want anybody to miss out because

32:29

we can't do it . We intend to do

32:31

it and I think that , from what I've seen

32:33

already from planning , we've

32:38

been very busy behind the scenes of trying to make sure that we get most things done in

32:40

quarter one . Quarter two , Certainly the level one

32:42

courses are the grassroots course , so

32:45

that's the short term definitely

32:47

.

32:48

Will that be ? I think we spoke about this and

32:50

again , this is not coming from you

32:52

, it's my opinion , right ? I think there has to

32:55

be a certain standard when somebody , for

32:57

example , goes into a B or tries to apply for a

32:59

B , at least you know . So there is going to be

33:01

something like that being tightened up , right

33:03

? I think so .

33:04

I think we've got to know what's

33:06

the aspirations of that individual , all

33:08

right , so where are they working ? Where are they aspiring to

33:10

go ? And I don't think a course stops somebody , or

33:13

a qualification . I think when we're looking

33:15

to add people onto our courses , it's

33:17

that we know the intention . What

33:19

is it ? What's the purpose for that individual ? And

33:21

I think when we can do that , it's

33:23

not a collective , it's specific

33:25

. If it's me going on a course , why do you

33:27

want to go on a course ? What is it you want to do ? What

33:30

are your aspirations ? Where do you want to go ? What have you done

33:32

to this point ? And then we can collect the information

33:34

and say , okay , well , yeah , this course is for you . If not

33:36

I think there may be it's not for you right

33:38

now . You

33:49

need to get back into the big world and get coaching and do a little and then

33:51

come back again , and then I think we can get , I think , more consistency

33:53

. I guess the framework behind the preparation going into a course will know who wants

33:55

to come on the courses and the reasons why . I think

33:57

that becomes the most powerful tool then

33:59

, because everybody should know , if you

34:01

want to go through the coaching pathway , these

34:04

things that you need to do to

34:06

demonstrate actually why you're going to apply for

34:08

yourself and then how you're going to get on the

34:10

course .

34:11

Well , that's definitely in the pipeline and I'm looking forward

34:13

to that one as well , you know , because I think not

34:16

everyone can , for example , be a B-license

34:18

coach , for example , you know , and so many

34:21

people are so fixated on

34:23

just climbing up so easily , right . So I think that's

34:25

a very good point and it's

34:28

what two years you have . You

34:30

have two years , I mean officially , that is . Do

34:33

you think it's a short runway ?

34:36

I feel it is . I mean , look , forget

34:38

me , just forget

34:40

me for that situation in terms

34:42

of two years . I just think , if somebody's in here now

34:44

and what do they want to do

34:46

? I think for me we've got to build

34:49

foundations . We've got to get some

34:51

real governance on the coach education

34:54

. We need some real quality control . We

34:57

need a clear framework of how

34:59

courses are run . We

35:02

need to have a clear process of how people

35:04

get onto courses and

35:06

then we can build . I think , like you say , two

35:08

years , no , I think if we're saying this is

35:10

the start of a journey , I think it's so

35:12

exciting for Singapore , is that actually , if

35:14

it wasn't me , it'd be somebody else who would probably

35:16

highlight these things ? I think right now

35:18

it's a little bit of an

35:22

environment where it's probably everybody's

35:24

just like I said at the start everybody's been working

35:26

the hardest just to get along and get by . Now

35:29

what I want to do is get some real leadership

35:31

within the department , some control

35:33

and some real standardisation

35:36

across the board so everybody knows what

35:38

they can do and it's not me ruling from the top . It's

35:40

actually giving the tools to all our coach developers

35:42

and then the aspiring next generation of

35:44

coaches actually a platform

35:46

and a framework to work from and then

35:49

hopefully , down the line , it's

35:51

going to impact our players in Singapore because

35:53

actually through governance and quality control

35:55

, it's actually we're providing some very

35:58

good courses with very good tools and

36:00

I think that actually then the coaches go out into the ecosystem

36:02

and hopefully then develop the

36:04

players on the pitch a little bit better and hopefully

36:06

we'll develop better players . I just think that's

36:09

we're at the start of an exciting journey

36:11

. You know , however long I stay , I don't

36:13

think it's about me . I think that there's clear

36:15

ideas going forward . Now I think we

36:17

we need to pull together . We need

36:19

to work together as a collective , not just

36:21

FAS , ced . We've

36:23

got to work with U SG . We've got to

36:25

work with the public . We've got to work with every stakeholder

36:27

, the parents . We've got to pull together because

36:30

I think there's a huge passion here to

36:32

improve Singapore football and I think that we've

36:34

got great people who are dedicated and I

36:36

just think that we've got to make sure that it's

36:39

, like I say , it's not ego driven , it's

36:43

done by the purest form people . We want to be better coaches

36:45

and we want our players to be better

36:47

for Singapore and I think if we go down that

36:50

road , we'll have half a chance of actually

36:52

going through that process . Okay , we'll

36:54

see tangible results . We

36:56

might win some games , we might get to a tournament

36:58

, I don't know right . I just think there'll be moments

37:00

where you can actually see there'll be clear improvement

37:03

on the pitch .

37:05

Hasni , what does success mean to you At

37:07

the end of your two years ? Or it could be two years , it could be four

37:09

years . We don't know what's going to happen at the end

37:11

of the two years , right ? What will success

37:13

mean to you in your mind ?

37:17

Again , if I go back

37:19

to me as a person , right as I go back

37:21

to the fundamentals

37:23

of life , success , hopefully I've

37:25

come here and I've provided a

37:28

positive environment for everybody , that I've been around

37:30

right . And I think , from that point of view , whether

37:33

whether we have exciting courses or

37:35

not , or we have really

37:38

talented coaches or not , I think that hopefully

37:40

, through my , my influence

37:42

here , coming in with , I

37:44

hope to , I hope this translates that

37:47

I'm not coming in with an ego because I've come from England

37:49

and that's that's me being . I'm better than everyone . No , I'm part translates I'm not coming in with an ego because I've come from

37:51

England and that's me being . I'm better than everyone . No , I'm part of everyone

37:53

. I want to be , I guess , part of

37:55

this journey . So I think success

37:57

for me . I say , if

37:59

I can , with

38:01

my character , my personality

38:03

can rub off to actually say coaching

38:06

, is coaching ? Nobody's perfect ? To

38:12

actually say coaching , is coaching nobody's perfect ? If it's , it's if without failure , you I don't

38:15

think you get , you know , you get your learning right . So I quite like the idea of actually being

38:17

being able

38:19

to say actually , even coaching courses , that I'm

38:21

overseeing , that failure is good . I

38:23

think mistakes are good . Is that it's

38:25

life , you know is is a journey full of ups

38:27

and downs , and so is coaching and I think the

38:30

exam or the pass and

38:32

fail . Um , if I'm honest with you , it

38:34

it's . If there's

38:36

a difference back home to here . There's no pass and

38:38

fail , right . There's a journey

38:40

and again getting to understand that person is this

38:43

guy's on a purpose . He wants to go somewhere . This woman

38:45

wants to go somewhere . Right , they know it's not going to

38:47

be perfect , it's going to be a rocky road yeah and

38:49

I think here I think the difference , what I've seen there's

38:52

a big sense of pass and fail and maybe that's culture

38:55

. People like the exams and passing

38:57

.

38:57

I get it .

38:57

I understand you're right however

39:00

, I think coaching is a little bit more , as

39:02

we spoke about , it's with practical

39:04

elements and people that you're

39:07

supposed to be influencing . They're not always going to be 100%

39:09

for you . So I just think that we

39:12

need to step back and hopefully we

39:14

move away from , say

39:16

, a summative approach to a more formative

39:18

approach , and I think that would be success for me , because

39:20

, actually , freedom of coaching

39:22

allows creativity , it

39:25

allows you to fail , it allows you to grow

39:27

and then again from there

39:29

, if you

39:31

really enjoy coaching , you fall in love with it

39:33

. You'll be an outstanding coach and an outstanding

39:35

person .

39:37

I want to ask you right , because I like the

39:39

coaching sessions that you've been doing with

39:41

the COE coaches . I think you've done two or three

39:43

, I think something like that , and

39:46

I think going forwards this is a good deal

39:48

, right ? At least you know you're looking

39:50

at the coaches , you're talking to them and I

39:52

think it has been great . And what

39:54

has been the feedback from them ? Has it been

39:56

good ?

39:57

Yeah , I think that's been a

39:59

real positive . I think it's been very good

40:01

for them to see me coach . I think sometimes

40:04

you can hear somebody talk . That we spoke about

40:06

right . Here's me now . I always think

40:08

it's so important that they get to see you and

40:10

I think I've

40:12

said openly , like you won't see an unbelievable

40:14

session here , but what I'm going to do , I'm going to give you a framework

40:16

of how I want to coach this

40:19

session today . Right , so that's

40:21

allowed . Some buy in with them guys and I think they've

40:23

seen me kind of just be open and

40:26

we've shared a lot and I think that the idea

40:28

of me thinking I know it all we've had . We've

40:31

had sessions where I've been able to coach and

40:33

I've had the feedback and I've adapted for

40:35

the next session because actually I didn't

40:37

consider and I'm thinking like the heat , the

40:39

timings , I'm doing things

40:41

that maybe I've done back home in the UK .

40:43

That no , yeah in the cool there . So

40:45

these guys .

40:46

I'm looking around it's like they're gagging for

40:48

water . So no , I think it's

40:50

been a huge success . It's been amazing . Them

40:52

guys have seen me coach and I think you

40:54

know from that standpoint again , there's

40:57

a feel for them , there's something that actually they can see

40:59

, opposed to me just telling them . So

41:01

it's been a real good two or three

41:03

times . It's been a wonderful

41:06

sharing opportunity and I think that

41:08

anytime you get to talk football it's really

41:10

good . So I think the big thing

41:12

that we've established early doors with this right

41:15

. So two sides for coaching for me there's

41:17

session design and the things

41:19

that we hear all the time around philosophy , methodology

41:22

, coaching sessions , frameworks

41:24

and all that and I think we've touched on this

41:26

. We've seen some of some of this come out , but

41:29

straight away they've they've understood the

41:31

other side where I've tried to delve into of

41:33

the art of coaching . So the art of coaching is

41:35

when you get to a level of you

41:37

. You're comfortable with the tools , you're comfortable with the framework

41:40

, you've got some ideas , but then you've got to translate

41:42

this now to the players . So then the art

41:44

of coaching for me is what takes you to another level

41:46

. So the art of coaching is then being able

41:48

to build relationships , understand that human being

41:50

, um , find that connection

41:52

where you know it's not just

41:55

, it's not the session size or the

41:57

stepping in it's , you know what

41:59

that person is going through . You kind of have

42:01

a feel for the session , whether to stop it or to

42:03

keep going . So the art of coaching

42:05

is different . So I see coaching in two aspects it it's

42:07

the like you say , the session design and the absolute

42:09

frameworks , and then it's you as a human

42:11

being , how you over time , get

42:14

your knowledge , get to that point of actually

42:16

there's art now . Is that how you connect with

42:18

people and that's how you build and that's how

42:20

them players hopefully cannot wait to come back

42:22

. So I always think the art is

42:24

the next level and is the next level and we touched on it

42:26

during the COE is

42:29

that hopefully they don't just see me say

42:31

stand here , do that . It's how I can

42:33

connect with these guys and make it fun and enjoyable

42:35

, because that's what it's about . Football is about

42:37

fun , it's about play .

42:40

Wonderful , hasni . I think it has been

42:42

a wonderful chat right and

42:44

we talked about you , know your role and what

42:46

, what you , you are going

42:48

for in the next one or two years or so . It's

42:51

been wonderful . Any last words for the coaches . You're the head

42:53

of coach education anyway here in Singapore . Any last

42:55

words for the coaches here in Singapore trying to come

42:58

up , trying to do well

43:00

for Singapore football .

43:01

Yeah , no , listen , I think already I've

43:03

seen fantastic passion , fantastic

43:05

dedication . I just think that keep going . I

43:09

think passion , fantastic dedication , I just think that keep going . I think keep the curiosity . I think that's

43:11

where , if you're a curious coach , um , this can take you wherever you want to go

43:13

to . And I think that's one of the qualities I look for

43:16

in any coach is that somebody's

43:18

all you know they can be good

43:20

, right , and you you might have , you

43:22

might see something , go wow , but

43:24

delving into that person , I think if you have curiosity

43:27

as a coach here

43:29

, that can add on to you . So , listen , keep up

43:31

the hard work , keep up the dedication . Singapore

43:34

needs all the coaches and I think for us , I

43:36

want to pull us all together , hopefully that

43:38

people see me on the ground , they can talk to me . Like

43:41

I say , I've shared my number with most people . If anybody

43:44

comes around me , I'm happy to talk and happy to help

43:46

. I think coaching needs to be that way

43:48

. I think we should be okay to share

43:50

and be open and to be okay that it's

43:52

a debate . Not everybody knows everything

43:54

, but I certainly think that

43:56

we've got a strong nucleus

43:59

of good people here that we can take the

44:01

country forward .

44:02

Hasnit cheers man . Thank you so much for being

44:04

on the podcast . It has for being on the podcast . It has been insightful , like

44:06

I said , and good luck for the next

44:08

two years and hopefully more than that . You know in

44:10

Singapore and hope to chat

44:13

with you and work with you soon mate .

44:15

Okay , thank you , appreciate it .

44:16

This has been the latest episode of the

44:18

Silver Fox Hustle podcast , the football talk episodes

44:21

. And don't forget , share the love with your family and

44:23

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Podcasts , youtube . Until the next time

44:27

, cheers , bye .