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launch, grow

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and tortoise.

1:39

Hello it's Claudia

1:41

here and you're

1:43

listening to the slow

1:46

newscast from tortoise.

1:48

a-cast.com

1:51

and the hundreds

1:54

of criminals pardoned

1:57

by Donald Trump.

1:59

because see I had a

2:01

pre-appointment to start my

2:03

chemotherapy. I was diagnosed with

2:06

breast cancer, went through surgery, and

2:08

it was coming up. So this would

2:10

be a fun time. Go to have some fun

2:12

before I start chemo, because you

2:15

know, once you start chemotherapy, you

2:17

can't go anywhere. Pam Hemfill is

2:19

in her late 60s when she has

2:21

her breast cancer surgery. She's a

2:24

mother of three grandmother of two,

2:26

facing months of chemo and radiation.

2:28

and her family wants to cheer

2:31

her up. And my family called

2:33

and said, would you like to go

2:35

as a gift for Christmas? And I

2:37

said, oh, that would be awesome. So

2:40

in early January as her

2:42

Christmas present, Pam flies thousands

2:44

of miles right across the

2:46

country from her home in

2:49

Boise Idaho to Washington

2:51

DC. And on January 6th,

2:53

2021, she turns up at

2:55

the capital, the home of

2:57

US democracy. She's there

2:59

to attend a rally supporting

3:01

the false claim promoted by

3:03

Donald Trump that the 2020

3:05

election has been stolen by

3:07

Joe Biden and the Democrats.

3:10

Before she goes, she tells her

3:12

Facebook followers, it's a war. Pam and

3:14

the rest of her family are

3:16

all long-term Trump supporters. But

3:18

for a few years now,

3:20

she's been spending more and

3:22

more of her time with

3:24

a very specific group of

3:26

political activists in Idaho. My

3:29

state is a red state, it's

3:31

huge, with all the far-right

3:34

militia that know me. People

3:36

like Eamon Bundy, leader of

3:38

People's Rights, a

3:40

far-right anti-government organization

3:42

that spent 2020

3:45

pushing COVID-denialism and

3:47

white supremacy in

3:49

fighting law enforcement

3:51

officers. Pam

3:58

documents the groups meet and

4:00

protests almost obsessively online.

4:02

And she shares her

4:04

own thoughts on everything

4:06

from the left's creation

4:09

of white privilege to Greta

4:11

Thumburg and the mafia.

4:13

Let's name some of the

4:15

tactics and some of the issues

4:18

that came up. The white

4:20

privilege card that uses a

4:22

tactic. Climate change, which now

4:24

we got, what Linda, what

4:26

is her name? Oh, Greta, Thumburg.

4:30

She becomes known as Magga Granny.

4:32

I was having fun. They make

4:34

you feel like it's a community,

4:36

and it was fun. It is jarring to

4:38

hear Pam describe that period of

4:41

time as fun. But it's how

4:43

she ended up in Washington DC

4:45

on January the 6th. I know

4:47

that everyone here will soon

4:49

be marching over to the

4:52

Capitol building to peacefully and...

4:54

Patriotically, make your voices heard.

4:56

Today we will see whether

4:59

Republicans stand strong. Behind a

5:01

sheet of bulletproof glass, Trump

5:03

makes a speech from a

5:05

park near the White House,

5:07

encouraging people to march to

5:10

the Capitol building, where Congress

5:12

is formalizing Biden's victory. And

5:14

we fight. We fight like hell. And

5:16

if you don't fight like hell, you're

5:18

not going to have a country anymore.

5:21

And then, of course, a president

5:23

isn't going to be lying.

5:25

So you're trusting everybody.

5:27

Giuliani, you know, everybody

5:30

around Trump. Why would you research?

5:32

You know, these people are not

5:35

lying to people. God, I was

5:37

naive. People have banners, placards,

5:39

as well as Confederate

5:41

flags and makeshift replica

5:43

gallows. And they said,

5:45

well, we're hearing that Trump's going

5:48

up to the Capitol. What's

5:50

he going up to the Capitol

5:52

for? He's just had his peach,

5:54

you know? But I just kept

5:56

walking towards the Capitol. I turn

5:58

around and I see a huge... group of

6:00

men coming I thought maybe they're the

6:02

proud boys I've heard about the proud

6:04

boys and when they got closer I

6:06

said to them are you the proud

6:08

boys are we going inside the capital

6:10

oh my god for about an hour Pam

6:13

sticks with some of the proud

6:15

boys a far-right militia who have

6:17

been labeled terrorists in Canada and

6:19

were crucial in organizing the siege

6:22

she thinks they're going to protect

6:24

Trump when he arrives to walk

6:26

into the capital But Trump

6:28

still hasn't turned up.

6:31

The things have already

6:33

turned violent. Pipe bombs

6:36

are discovered near the

6:38

capital. The mob breaches

6:40

the barricades protecting

6:42

the west side

6:45

of the building and

6:47

the lawmakers inside and

6:49

surges past police, smashing

6:52

windows and pushing through

6:54

doors. Nancy Pelosi,

6:56

the most senior Democrat in the

6:59

House, and Mike Pence, the vice

7:01

president, a rush to safety as

7:03

people hunt for them through the

7:05

corridors. Pam is on the other

7:07

side of the building, which is

7:09

marginally calmer. She ends up turning

7:12

to the police for help multiple

7:14

times as the crowd swells around

7:16

her. They knocked me down, put my

7:18

knee, broke my glasses, full up my shoulder.

7:20

I was not breathing, stepping on

7:23

my head. Finally, two officers picked

7:25

me up and got me behind them.

7:27

So they saved my life that day. I

7:29

was not breathing. But once past the

7:31

police, she encourages other people to

7:33

join her and to enter the

7:35

capital building. They pushed themselves

7:38

up to the top of the door, started

7:40

pepper spraying officers. They had flight

7:42

poles, they were trying to break the door.

7:44

So I went to the captain again

7:46

and another captain, I think. So

7:48

where's the National Guard? My God,

7:51

get them out here. They're going

7:53

crazy. and he says I can't get

7:55

a hold of anybody he's panicking too.

7:57

Later prosecutors accuse her of using

7:59

her ill health to distract

8:01

police. In total, over 2,000

8:03

pro- trump rioters enter the

8:05

capital building and cause nearly

8:08

$3 million worth of damage.

8:10

More than 170 police officers

8:12

are hurt and one eventually dies

8:14

from his injuries. One rioter is

8:17

shot and killed by police as

8:19

she attempts to climb through a

8:21

window into the speaker's lobby. The

8:24

three more died during the rampage

8:26

from natural causes or the crush.

8:28

And while all this chaos is

8:31

unfolding around her, Pam has one

8:33

thing on her mind. I was

8:35

thinking, why isn't he here? I

8:38

had that though. He could stop

8:40

this right now. What's going on?

8:42

Where's Trump? It takes eight months

8:45

for the FBI to turn up

8:47

at Pam's door and arrest her.

8:49

Like more than a thousand others,

8:52

she's eventually charged for her part

8:54

in the insurrection. She's convicted of

8:56

unlawful parading, demonstrating, or picketing at

8:59

the capital. But really, that was

9:01

the easy part for law enforcement.

9:03

There was another bigger job at

9:05

hand. To work out what Donald

9:08

Trump was responsible for that day.

9:10

So many hundreds of rioters had

9:12

been charged. A lot of those

9:15

rioters blamed Trump for calling them

9:17

to the capital on that day.

9:19

And so... I think it would

9:22

have just left a gaping hole

9:24

if law enforcement and prosecutors had

9:26

said, yeah, we're going to go

9:29

after all of these little guys

9:31

and some of them were bigger

9:33

than little guys, but we're not

9:36

going to look at the biggest

9:38

guy of all in his role

9:40

in this. That responsibility fell on

9:43

special counsel Jack Smith. It was

9:45

an investigation that lasted over two

9:47

years and came to a conclusion

9:50

this January, not with a trial.

9:52

but a dense report. One that

9:54

spells out exactly what Special Counsel

9:56

Smith discovered. This report is an...

9:59

effort to put down the true

10:01

history of Donald Trump's effort to

10:03

overturn the results of a free

10:06

and fair election. Trump cannot erase

10:08

that history. You may have heard

10:10

parts of it before but probably

10:13

in a piecemeal fashion. It's sometimes

10:15

hard to knit the whole story

10:17

together and to understand what actually

10:20

happened. It's become a little blurred.

10:22

So in this episode my colleague

10:24

Stephen Armstrong and I have tried

10:27

to bring it all back into

10:29

focus and to work out what

10:31

the Smith report means for the

10:34

future of US democracy. Throughout my

10:36

service as special counsel seeking to

10:38

influence the election one way or

10:41

the other or seeking to interfere

10:43

in its outcome played no role

10:45

in our work. My office had

10:47

one North Star to follow the

10:50

facts and law. Wherever they lead,

10:52

nothing more and nothing less. Every

10:54

time I hear Jacksmith talk, or

10:57

I talk to people about Jacksmith,

10:59

I find it hard to shake

11:01

two images, both from movies. The

11:04

first is Elliot Ness in The

11:06

Untouchables, and the second is Mr.

11:08

Smith goes to Washington. It's a

11:11

mistake to make those comparisons. Let

11:13

me say that from the outset.

11:15

Elliot Ness was a prohibition agent

11:18

investigating bootlegging in Chicago, a city

11:20

steeped in corruption. He was after

11:22

the crime kingpin Al Capone. He

11:25

didn't just talk to witnesses, he

11:27

smashed up illicit steals and he

11:29

tapped phone lines. In the movie,

11:32

Sean Connery, who plays a tough

11:34

Irish-American cop, tells Kevin Kosner, who

11:36

plays the upstanding Elliot Ness, about

11:39

the lengths he'll have to go

11:41

to. When he get Capone, he's

11:43

how you get him. He pulls

11:45

a knife. He pulls a knife.

11:48

He pulls a knife. You pull

11:50

a gun, he sends one of

11:52

yours to the hospital, you send

11:55

one of hiss to the morgue,

11:57

patch, the Chicago. And that's how

11:59

you get the ball. Mr Smith

12:02

goes to Washington is a Jimmy

12:04

Stewart classic. It's about a naive

12:06

senator dropped into office by a

12:09

local crook who assumes he'll be

12:11

easy to manipulate. Of course, Mr

12:13

Smith uncovers political shenanigans and teaches

12:16

Washington a few homespun lessons about

12:18

democracy. All you people don't know

12:20

about lost causes. Mr. Payne does

12:23

it. He said once that we're

12:25

the only causes worth fighting for.

12:28

And he fought for the months

12:30

for the only reason any man

12:33

ever fights for them. Because of

12:35

just one plain simple rule. Love

12:37

by neighbour. Jack Smith is neither

12:40

of those men. He's notoriously tight-lipped,

12:42

and he's unlikely to declaim passionately

12:45

about the little folks back home.

12:47

But he's got a CV that

12:49

steeped in public service, prosecuting bad

12:52

guys. And Jack Smith has prosecuted

12:54

some bad guys. He investigated war

12:56

crimes for the International Criminal Court

12:59

and the Kosovo specialist chambers in

13:01

the Hague. When he worked as

13:04

a New York prosecutor, he pursued

13:06

terrorists, financial fraud, and prosecuted police

13:08

officers accused of brutality. In 2010...

13:11

He took charge of the Justice

13:13

Department's public integrity section. This had

13:15

been established after President Nixon and

13:18

the Watergate scandal. In Smith's first

13:20

year, he was accused of going

13:22

easy on congressional corruption. When the

13:25

New York Times asked if he

13:27

was gun shy, he was polite,

13:30

but firm. I understand why the

13:32

question is asked. But if I

13:34

were the sort of person who

13:37

would be cowed, I know we

13:39

should bring this case. I know

13:41

the person did it, but we

13:44

could lose. and that will look

13:46

bad, I would find another line

13:48

of work. I should say he's

13:51

being voiced here and throughout the

13:53

episode by an actor. I can't

13:56

imagine how someone who does what

13:58

I do or... has worked with

14:00

me, could think that. He's

14:03

prosecuted both Democrats and

14:05

Republicans. Under the US voting

14:07

system, everyone who registers to

14:10

vote can declare a party

14:12

affiliation. And roughly half of

14:15

Americans put their voting preference

14:17

down when they register. Smith

14:19

registered as an independent. No

14:22

party affiliation. What I'm trying

14:24

to get across here is that like

14:26

the many in those films. Jacksmith

14:29

seems to represent an old

14:31

idea of America, bipartisan,

14:33

engaged in writing wrongs, and

14:35

perhaps naively seeing itself as

14:38

the world's policeman, spreading

14:40

democracy across the globe.

14:42

Everyone we spoke to who's worked

14:44

with him described him as

14:46

a deeply impressive prosecutor. All

14:48

of them would work with him again,

14:51

despite what happened next. In

14:53

many ways, the Jacksmith version

14:55

of American democracy is

14:57

quite something. This is a country

14:59

where even the local sheriff is

15:01

elected and answerable to the people.

15:03

But that idea of America disappeared

15:06

this January. Breaking news that

15:08

we're getting. So the Justice Department

15:10

is firing, quote, over a dozen

15:13

officials who were part of the

15:15

team that was put together by

15:17

his former special counsel Jack Smith

15:19

that sought to prosecute Donald Trump.

15:21

Voting isn't always the friend of

15:24

an honest law enforcement officer.

15:26

Donald Trump winning the 2024

15:28

election was the end of

15:30

Jacksmith's journey. But not before he

15:33

submitted his final report. The

15:35

Department of Justice published the

15:37

first half on the 14th of

15:40

January. This report is 146 pages

15:42

long. It includes graphic pictures

15:44

of the violence at the

15:46

capital on January the 6th,

15:49

alongside some detailed legal arguments

15:51

and the laying out of evidence.

15:53

It's... a little dry at times. But

15:56

when Jack Smith is reaching for

15:58

the founding fathers, or fundamental... principles

16:00

established in U.S. law. Well, he's

16:03

appealing to that old America. Here

16:05

he is from his introduction. Our

16:07

work rested upon the fundamental

16:09

value of our democracy that

16:12

we exist as a government

16:14

of laws and not of men. I think it

16:16

was really significant that Jack Smith

16:18

kind of framed things that way.

16:21

This is Ilia merits. He's a

16:23

journalist who's worked with the

16:25

Boston Globe. pro-publica and NPR, and

16:27

he made a podcast series on

16:30

the January the 6th capital

16:32

attack. I think that that quote

16:34

is really important because it shows

16:36

sort of the contrast between

16:38

the legal community, the constitutional

16:41

view of the American government

16:43

and a presidency, and a

16:46

government of laws, a government

16:48

of procedures, a government of

16:50

rights and responsibilities, and this

16:52

is how we do things,

16:54

versus The Trumpian view, which

16:56

is basically a king-like government,

16:59

a government of one extremely

17:01

strong executive at the top.

17:03

Jack Smith was appointed in November

17:05

2022 by Merritt Garland, the

17:08

Attorney General. He rapidly recruited

17:10

a team of 20 DOJ

17:12

prosecutors. They called witnesses for

17:14

grand jury testimony, issued subpoenas

17:17

to election officials in multiple

17:19

states, called Donald Trump's daughter

17:21

Evanca and her husband Jared

17:24

Cushen. He spoke to Vice President

17:26

Mike Pence, and the White House Chief

17:28

of Staff marked Meadows, and he

17:30

even asked a federal judge to

17:32

hold Donald Trump in contempt for

17:35

refusing to comply with the subpoena.

17:37

In all, the team interviewed more than

17:39

250 people and obtained grand

17:41

jury testimony from more than

17:43

55 witnesses. In June and August,

17:46

2023, he filed two criminal

17:48

indictments against Mr Trump. making

17:50

him the first ever former president

17:53

to face federal charges. Good evening.

17:55

Today, an indictment was unsealed

17:57

charging Donald J Trump with

17:59

conspire. to defraud the United

18:01

States, conspiring to disenfranchise

18:03

voters, and conspiring and attempting

18:06

to obstruct an official proceeding.

18:08

There were two strands to this inquiry.

18:10

Jack Smith was investigating election

18:13

fraud. And Donald Trump stashing classified

18:15

documents in his Maralago home. Sources

18:17

telling ABC News the search is

18:19

related to allegations the former president

18:21

improperly removed documents when he left

18:23

the White House. They were brought

18:26

to Maralago, including classified material. And

18:28

it wasn't the first time federal

18:30

agents had been to Maralago their

18:32

first visit in the spring. Remember those photographs

18:34

of dozens of boxes of documents tucked

18:36

in between a toilet and a shower

18:38

in one of Donald Trump's bathrooms and

18:41

piled up on stage in a gilded

18:43

ballroom. Jacksmith had

18:45

two setbacks in the law that

18:47

were very significant

18:49

and that each in their own way

18:51

say something about Trump.

18:53

The first setback had

18:55

to do with the

18:57

classified documents case. The judging

19:00

the case was alien cannon,

19:02

a Trump appointee. She's

19:04

young, she's not very experienced, she

19:06

was raided as unqualified and right away

19:08

she did a number of things around

19:11

that case that showed her lack of

19:13

experience and lack of knowledge around

19:15

that part of the law. Nima Romani

19:17

is a former federal prosecutor

19:19

and the president of West Coast trial

19:22

lawyers, a law firm based in LA.

19:24

He was also director of enforcement

19:26

for the Los Angeles City

19:28

Ethics Commission. The Florida indictment

19:30

was dismissed for... other and I

19:33

think bad reasons by Judge

19:35

Cannon who she ruled

19:37

that Smith's appointment was

19:39

an unconstitutional violation of

19:41

the appointments and appropriations

19:44

clauses of the Constitution.

19:46

She's the only judge I believe

19:48

who's ever come to that decision.

19:50

Judge Cannon effectively bans

19:53

Smith from publishing his

19:55

evidence. The classified documents

19:57

case against Trump ends

19:59

the... But Jack Smith is

20:01

still working on the election

20:03

fraud. The first stage of

20:06

his report covers the pre-election

20:08

period. Trump is told

20:10

in advance that the

20:12

vote would be close. Initial

20:14

returns might show he had an

20:17

early lead, but that that would

20:19

shrink as mailing votes were counted.

20:21

Trump's reply, Smith writes,

20:24

is that... If that prediction

20:26

were true, which it ultimately

20:28

was... He would simply declare victory

20:31

before all ballots were

20:33

counted and a winner was projected.

20:35

He also made repeated public

20:38

statements in the lead-up to

20:40

election day in which he sewed public

20:42

doubt in the election results,

20:44

setting the stage for his later

20:46

fraud claims. Mr. Trump made

20:48

his first statement claiming fraud

20:50

in the election only hours

20:53

after polls closed when no

20:55

investigations had begun, much

20:57

less concluded. Then Trump starts

20:59

making calls and claims whilst

21:02

behind the scenes almost giggling

21:04

at his own audacity. For

21:06

example, claims about voting machines

21:09

that Mr Trump privately

21:11

acknowledged sounded crazy before

21:13

he publicly amplified them.

21:15

Smith notes that he only phones

21:17

Republicans. He demands loyalty.

21:20

He makes threats. He tried to

21:22

coerce the Arizona speaker, including

21:24

by telling him. We're all kind

21:26

of Republicans. and we need to

21:28

be working together." And he phones the

21:30

governor of Georgia, claiming fraud, failing

21:33

to provide evidence, and then adding,

21:35

You know what they did, and you're

21:37

not reporting it. That's a criminal offence.

21:40

And you know, you can't let that

21:42

happen. That's a big risk to you.

21:44

As a prosecutor, Nima Romani has

21:46

successfully tried drug and people

21:48

smuggling gangs. I asked him about

21:51

the way Jack Smith describes Trump's

21:53

behaviour. Does this resemble the behavior of any

21:55

other kind of criminal in terms of the

21:57

way they're demanding loyalty on terms of... of

22:00

the way they're looking for actions

22:02

to take place. It can obviously

22:04

have prosecuted drug cartels. I'm

22:07

not trying to say that Donald

22:09

Trump was the head of a

22:11

criminal organization. I would say what's

22:14

interesting and probably most unique

22:16

about the Trump case is the

22:18

requirement that prosecutors get inside his

22:21

head. And here's Jack Smith's next

22:23

problem. This is a scheme

22:25

to defraud the United States and

22:27

to the extent that Donald Trump

22:30

truly believed that he won the

22:32

2020 election and that he

22:34

was merely auditing the results. That

22:37

makes it very challenging to prosecute

22:39

the case because most crimes, including

22:41

the crimes charged here, require

22:43

mens rea, Latin term for the

22:46

guilty mind, the criminal intent. That's

22:48

why so much of Jack Smith's

22:51

indictment and the special counsel reports

22:53

focuses on... what Trump said and

22:55

what was said to him, that

22:58

he knew he lost the election

23:00

and wanted to overturn the results

23:03

anyways. Are there analogs, say,

23:05

in white collar crime? Is it

23:07

working out if there's an analogous

23:09

set of behaviors, or is this

23:12

a unique set of behaviors

23:14

that Jacksmith is kind of prosecuting?

23:16

Have you encountered anyone making these

23:19

sorts of calls or trying to

23:21

defraud in this sort of

23:23

way anywhere? I haven't seen anyone

23:25

declare victory the way Donald Trump

23:28

did. Certainly, this is a very

23:30

unique case. Hopefully, we never

23:32

have to deal with this ever

23:35

again. But, you know, this is

23:37

another you do see in other

23:39

fraud cases. Obviously, typically, when

23:41

it comes to fraud, you're talking

23:44

about money, right? I mean, you've

23:46

seen it time and time again.

23:49

In cases like Elizabeth Holmes or

23:51

San Bankman Free, these massive corporate

23:53

frauds where people, you know, are

23:56

saying, well, you know, I truly

23:58

believe that the company was... absolutely

24:01

the correct thing so this

24:03

is strategy that you see in

24:05

fraud defense cases all the time.

24:07

Jack Smith reports that Trump absolutely

24:10

knew he'd lost. In private,

24:12

in contrast with his public false

24:14

claims, Mr. Trump made admissions that

24:17

reflected his understanding that he had

24:19

lost. In a private moment,

24:21

Mr. Trump confessed to his family

24:23

members that it doesn't matter if

24:26

you won or lost the election,

24:28

you still have to fight

24:30

like hell. When President-elect Biden appeared

24:33

on television in November, Mr. Trump

24:35

said to a staffer, can you

24:37

believe I lost to this

24:39

effing guy? And when his own

24:42

vice president declined to join the

24:44

conspiracy, Mr. Trump berated him for

24:47

being too honest. And when the

24:49

Department of Justice tries to find

24:51

proof of election fraud, Justice Department

24:54

officials reviewed Mr. Trump's claims of

24:56

election fraud, found no support of

24:59

any of them. In one such

25:01

discussion, When the Acting Attorney General

25:03

advised Mr Trump that the Justice

25:06

Department could not just snap its

25:08

fingers and change the election

25:10

outcome, Mr Trump told the Acting

25:13

Attorney General that they should just

25:15

say that the election was corrupt

25:17

and leaves a rest to

25:20

me and the Republican Congressman. Jacksmith

25:22

is pressing ahead with the election

25:24

fraud case and Trump's team is

25:27

hurling obstacles at Smith. Trump's

25:29

taunting him on social media and

25:31

his lawyers are claiming all sorts

25:34

of things, including that the US

25:36

president has absolute immunity from

25:38

prosecution for anything he does in

25:40

office. I don't think Jack Smith

25:43

really appreciated how effective Trump and

25:45

his lawyers would be in

25:47

delaying these cases. Let's be honest,

25:50

as a prosecutor, your number one

25:52

job is to get justice. But

25:54

your number two job is... to

25:57

win the case, and Jacksmith got

25:59

nowhere near the finish line in

26:02

either of these cases. Remember how

26:04

Jacksmith opened his report? We exist

26:06

as a government of laws

26:08

had not... of men. That is

26:11

also why, in my decision-making, I

26:13

heeded the imperative that no man

26:16

in this country is so

26:18

high that he is above the

26:20

law. He is where Jacksmith gets

26:22

things wrong. He appeals to the

26:25

Supreme Court over the presidential

26:27

immunity arguments. Trump's lawyers are terrified.

26:29

They asked the Supreme Court to

26:32

stay out of the debate, but

26:34

in July 2024, the Supreme

26:36

Court backs Trump. Breaking news, the

26:38

Supreme Court just ruled on former

26:41

President Trump's immunity case, saying, Presidents

26:43

do have immunity for official

26:45

acts while in office, but not

26:48

for unofficial acts. In a historic

26:50

6-3 ruling, the justices then ordered

26:52

lower courts to figure out precisely

26:55

how to apply that decision to

26:57

Trump's January 6th case. Still, Jacksmith

27:00

persevers. His report separates out those

27:02

crimes that are immune from prosecution

27:04

and those that aren't. And

27:06

by now, Trump's team is just

27:09

delaying the case, trying to push

27:11

it into the long grass until

27:14

the election. And in November,

27:16

Donald Trump is reelected. But I

27:18

don't think Jack Smith really appreciated

27:20

the very real possibility that Donald

27:23

Trump would be reelected. After

27:25

Trump's victory, it's over for Jacksmith.

27:27

The Department of Justice does not

27:30

prosecute sitting presidents, and Jacksmith is

27:32

forced to ask a judge

27:34

to throw out the case to

27:36

throw out the case. He files

27:39

his report on the 7th of

27:41

January and with that Jack

27:43

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your podcasts. Mr. Smith goes to

28:39

Washington actually ends with Jimmy

28:41

Stewart's character collapsing. His Philly Buster

28:44

fails. It takes the corrupt Senator

28:46

Joseph Payne's confession. to bring about

28:49

justice. Maybe nice guys do finish

28:51

last. Jack Smith's report didn't even

28:53

get that much attention. Here's Ilia

28:56

Meritz. At the time it was

28:58

released January 14th, Pete Hexeth was

29:01

in his confirmation hearings for

29:03

defense secretary. He was being accused

29:05

of being a drunk and a

29:07

wife abuser, basically an abuser of

29:10

women. The LA fires were

29:12

happening and this report didn't have

29:14

a lot of new facts. to

29:17

offer and the American people had

29:19

already decided by a plurality

29:21

that Donald Trump was going to

29:23

be the next president and that

29:26

he had won the popular vote.

29:28

So I'm not surprised that

29:30

this didn't make a lot of

29:33

waves in the moment. Meanwhile, Trump

29:35

is telling Republican senators he has

29:37

planned 100 executive orders for

29:39

his first day from closing the

29:42

border to mass deportations. He announces

29:44

his list of cabinet appointees. He's

29:47

also talking up tariffs. There's so

29:49

much to cover. Who has time

29:51

to read the report? There's a

29:54

reason for that. Let's zoom out.

29:56

I think there is... a single

29:59

quote, the most memorable quote of

30:01

the Trump years, and it was

30:03

uttered by Steve Bannon in early

30:06

2018. He said, the Democrats don't

30:08

matter, the real opposition is

30:10

the media, and the way to

30:13

deal with them is to flood

30:15

the zone with bull. Steve Bannon

30:17

was Chief White House strategist

30:19

at the start of Trump's first

30:22

term, and he still has a

30:24

lot of influence. He devised the

30:27

tactic of constant offensive action.

30:29

Noise, delay, attack, distract. That's what

30:31

drowned out Jacksmith's moment of clarity.

30:33

Smith published his report so we

30:36

can all see the way

30:38

this new administration operates. But could

30:40

he have done better? So, you

30:43

know, if I were Smith, I

30:45

would have filed this case

30:47

immediately after, or maybe even before,

30:49

the January 6th Committee. issued their

30:52

results and their report and those

30:54

findings were public from to sit

30:57

on this for years ultimately resulted

30:59

in him not even getting the

31:01

opportunity to take this to a

31:04

jury. I'm not in any way

31:06

suggesting that Smith did anything

31:08

unethical or improper or wrong, but

31:11

ultimately their winners and losers. And

31:13

most legal cases, and there's no

31:15

doubt in my mind that

31:17

Donald Trump came out a winner

31:20

and Smith the loser here. There

31:22

were people in the legal community

31:25

who cared a lot about

31:27

the Department of Justice holding Trump

31:29

accountable in some way, who felt

31:31

that Merrick Garland was too cautious

31:34

and took too long and

31:36

moved this investigation too slowly. It

31:38

does seem that when Jack Smith...

31:41

arrived when he was appointed, he

31:43

saw the ticking clock. He

31:45

knew that Donald Trump was running

31:48

for president and that there was

31:50

a limited window to bring charges

31:52

if he was going to bring

31:55

charges. But really, what could Jacksmith

31:57

have done if he'd moved faster?

32:00

He was given the job knowing

32:02

Trump was running for re-election,

32:04

supposing he had managed to

32:06

prosecute. Then what? There's no bar

32:08

on felons becoming president?

32:10

Sure, day one would have seen Trump in

32:12

a jail cell. But what would be his

32:14

first action? To pardon Donald

32:16

J. Trump. There are still outstanding

32:18

civil cases that aren't

32:20

covered by presidential immunity. He

32:23

has to pay the writer E.

32:25

Jean Carroll $88 million in damages

32:27

for sexually abusing and defaming her.

32:29

He's accused of defamation by

32:32

the Central Park Five, who were

32:34

accused of rape in 1989 when

32:36

they were teenagers, and who Trump

32:38

falsely claimed pled guilty. And a

32:40

New York judge has ordered him

32:43

to pay $350 million for fraudulent

32:45

business practices, some that's risen

32:47

to $500 million with interest.

32:49

Trump has, of course, denied all

32:51

charges. But an election interference

32:54

case in Georgia has been thrown out

32:56

by the appeals court. and he's been

32:58

given an unconditional discharge,

33:00

after being found guilty of paying

33:03

hush money to pawn star Stormy

33:05

Daniels. There's a way you can read

33:07

Jack's misreport, which could look like

33:09

he's laying out evidence for a

33:11

future prosecutor. But Nima Romani

33:13

dismisses the idea. I think that ship

33:15

has sailed. Based on the statute

33:17

of limitations, based on the

33:19

Supreme Court's very very broad

33:22

view of presidential immunity and

33:24

expansive definition of official acts,

33:26

there is no way that

33:28

Donald Trump is going to

33:30

be prosecuted in 2029 when

33:32

he leaves office. Just, you

33:34

know, folks that don't like them, they have

33:36

to set that out of their mind. So

33:38

is there anything Jacksmith could have

33:41

done differently? Well, perhaps there

33:43

is. There are three things you need

33:45

to be president. Really the only

33:47

requirements are that you'd be born

33:49

in the United States before 35

33:52

years of age and have not

33:54

engaged in insurrection The report shows

33:56

for the first time that Jacksmith

33:58

did serious consider whether

34:00

to charge Trump with insurrection.

34:03

He concludes he would struggle

34:05

to convict. Not because what

34:07

happened was not an insurrection,

34:09

but because the laws were written

34:12

too narrowly. The founding fathers,

34:14

the people who wrote the

34:16

first draft of America's constitution

34:18

in 1787, had just won

34:20

a revolutionary war against George III.

34:22

They'd built their country on

34:25

insurrection. But what they hadn't

34:27

imagined was an insurrection. as

34:29

an attempt to remain in

34:31

power. Smith agonized about

34:33

this. The office of special

34:35

counsel did not find any

34:38

case in which a criminal

34:40

defendant was charged with insurrection

34:43

for acting within the

34:46

government to maintain power,

34:48

as opposed to overthrowing it

34:50

or thwarting it from the

34:52

outside. Applying section 2383 in

34:54

this way would have been

34:57

a first. which further weighed

34:59

against charging it, given the

35:01

other available charges. Even

35:03

if there were reasonable arguments

35:05

that it might apply. But perhaps

35:08

Smith went after the wrong

35:10

witnesses. Do you in your opinion

35:12

believe that Donald Trump committed

35:15

an act of insurrection

35:17

against the United States

35:19

government? Yes, he's an

35:21

insurrectionist. Since January 6th,

35:24

2021, Pam's perspective on

35:26

Trump on the election. and on

35:28

her involvement in the riot has

35:30

shifted. Well, it wasn't until about six

35:32

months later. I was still in the

35:34

victim mode. I liked being the victim

35:36

and I went and saw my therapist

35:38

and he looked for me right in

35:40

the eye. I said, Miss Henville, you're

35:43

not a victim of January 6th.

35:45

You had a choice. You could have left. You

35:47

were a volunteer and I got madam.

35:49

I went home. I thought, I'm never

35:51

talking to that therapist again. But he

35:53

was right. And see, because I worked the

35:55

12-step program. One of the steps is when

35:57

you're wrong, probably admit it, well, it was

36:00

a problem. admitting it. So I

36:02

did some introspection, did

36:04

some praying, and I got honest

36:06

with myself and I said he

36:09

is right on. I had a

36:11

choice. I'm not a victim. I broke

36:13

the law. I went to prison.

36:15

I'm finishing up my

36:17

probation. I have to finish my

36:20

sentence. What do you think

36:22

of the pardons generally? Oh

36:24

my God. It's a nightmare. One

36:27

of Trump's first acts as president

36:29

was to pardon nearly all

36:31

of the January 6th criminals.

36:33

To say this surprise the Republican

36:35

Party is putting it mildly. J.D.

36:38

Vance, the vice president, Mike Johnson,

36:40

the Speaker of the House

36:42

of Representatives, and the newly

36:44

confirmed Secretary of State Marco

36:46

Rubio, had all offered assurances

36:48

that pardons would not cover

36:50

violent offenders. Nearly 1,600 people

36:53

who had attacked the heart

36:55

of US democracy in an

36:57

attempt to overthrow the incoming

36:59

government, and who had convictions

37:01

that were the result of

37:03

the largest investigation in the

37:05

history of the Justice Department,

37:08

walked free. This included men

37:10

guilty of attacking police officers

37:12

with pepper spray or wasp

37:14

killer spray, reinforced brass knuckles,

37:16

or in one case, an

37:18

electroshock weapon. Asked about the

37:21

pardons in late November, Trump

37:23

sounded cautious. I'm going to do

37:25

a case by case, he said. And

37:27

if they were nonviolent, I

37:29

think they've been greatly punished.

37:31

But a Trump advisor told the

37:34

online news site, Axis, that in

37:36

the end, the president just

37:38

said, fuck it, release them all. No,

37:40

they were criminals. We're all criminals

37:43

that day. There's no excuses. You

37:45

just know it, but you don't

37:47

want to face it. It's difficult

37:49

to admit when you're

37:51

wrong. Pam has refused to

37:53

accept her pardon. And how of

37:56

the other Jan 6's responded,

37:58

responded to you? Oh. Well, see,

38:00

a lot of people don't know this, but

38:02

I've been speaking out for a year

38:04

and a half. So I've had a smear

38:07

campaign going on, lies and an op.

38:09

Like, it's a group of people

38:11

that are putting out everything. My

38:13

grandmother's name, my children's pictures, my

38:15

past, my childhood, you name it. They

38:18

have dug. I mean, it's a project

38:20

for them. Now she's scared. And you

38:22

know, they're getting worse now. They're

38:24

talking about... going after the

38:26

judges and everybody that had

38:28

them arrested and they're getting

38:31

their little plans going and

38:33

buying guns. Now all Trump has done

38:35

is open the door to make their

38:37

narrative real, that it was not

38:39

an insurrection. And it's not just

38:41

Pam who's considering her own

38:43

safety. Iliomeritz has reported

38:46

extensively on the impact

38:48

of January the 6th and that

38:50

includes spending a lot of time with

38:52

the refit family. Guy refit.

38:54

went to the Capitol, with a gun,

38:57

climbed the steps of the Capitol, didn't

38:59

make it inside. He came back that

39:01

night and his son Jackson Reffett

39:03

told me how Guy Reffett was boasting

39:06

about bringing a gun to the

39:08

Capitol, and then he threatened his kids.

39:10

And he said, traders get shot.

39:12

And what he didn't know was that

39:14

Jackson Reffett had already tipped the FBI,

39:17

and that he was meeting with

39:19

FBI agents and telling and feeding them

39:21

all of this information about his

39:23

information about his own dad. Guy

39:25

Riffet was the first person convicted

39:27

by a jury for his

39:29

involvement in the capital siege. He

39:32

was sentenced to more than seven

39:34

years in federal prison. And as

39:36

long as Guy Riffet was in

39:38

jail, Jackson Riffet had a chance

39:41

to repair his relationships with his

39:43

sisters and his mom. Now Guy Riffet

39:45

is out of jail and he is scared.

39:47

He is in hiding. This is somebody

39:50

who was kind of the face of

39:52

families holding... their own family members accountable.

39:54

He's somebody who did a lot of

39:56

interviews, a lot of TV interviews as

39:59

well, and he is in hiding, and

40:01

he is worried about what could happen. Washington

40:04

is no longer a place for Mr.

40:06

Smith. The criminal defense

40:09

lawyers who represented Trump against Jack

40:11

Smith have been given key positions

40:13

in the Justice Department, and

40:15

Ed Martin, a conservative activist who

40:17

defended some of the Jan Sixers

40:19

in court, is now the interim

40:21

US attorney for the District of

40:24

Columbia. Trump's people

40:26

are in charge. The

40:28

insurrectionists are running the

40:30

country. I've been

40:33

told Jack Smith is planning to move back to

40:35

Europe. I think for history

40:37

it's an incredibly powerful document. One

40:40

of the things that I've been reflecting on,

40:42

on reading it, is

40:44

just how many

40:47

elected Republicans in

40:49

different offices around the

40:51

country stymied Trump's

40:53

effort to overturn the 2020

40:55

election. And just how many

40:58

career officials in the government, out

41:01

of a sense of duty, blocked

41:03

Trump's efforts to

41:06

overturn that election and

41:08

really to violate the law. I

41:10

don't know, the Republican Speaker of

41:12

the Arizona House, just to

41:15

pick one, or Mike Pence to

41:17

pick a really dramatic example,

41:19

who said, no, the president is

41:21

not a king. The president

41:23

does not have the power to

41:25

overturn an election. Jack Smith's

41:27

report points again and again to

41:29

lots of these people who

41:31

essentially were the safeguards, the guardrails

41:33

on our democracy. And speaking to

41:36

you now in late

41:38

January, when we've been

41:40

through just a little bit

41:42

more than the first week of

41:44

the second Trump term in office,

41:46

I'm really questioning what the people

41:49

who hold those same kind of

41:51

positions as safeguards of democracy are

41:53

going to do this time. Here's

41:56

Neema Ramani, the former federal prosecutor.

42:00

So it's not necessarily Trump, but

42:02

this retaliation and this back and

42:04

forth. And you know, you do

42:06

see some of these third world

42:08

countries where whenever there's a new

42:10

group in power, they imprison all

42:12

their political opponents. I think that's

42:14

something that no one wants. And

42:17

just today, I got a department

42:19

of justice memo that was circulated

42:21

to my former colleagues there that

42:24

said that. You know, if state

42:26

and local officials don't prosecute immigration

42:28

cases, they can be prosecuted for

42:31

federal immigration laws. So now you

42:33

have federal prosecutors prosecuting

42:35

state and local law enforcement. So it

42:38

is a very sad state of affairs

42:40

in the United States right now. I

42:42

do hope cooler heads will prevail. My

42:44

concern is Donald Trump is indeed on

42:46

his revenge tour, and he's going to

42:49

make it very painful for those who

42:51

made his life painful the last several

42:53

years. Let's not forget that

42:55

Trump won this election. He

42:57

won it with a majority

43:00

of the votes. That means

43:02

more Americans wanted this than

43:04

didn't. There are many, many

43:07

people who are thrilled to

43:09

what's happening in their country,

43:11

and they don't need a

43:14

liberal Brit to whine at them.

43:16

But some of those who would have

43:18

been thrilled have changed their

43:21

mind. You know, we didn't vote

43:23

in. a president. We

43:25

voted in a dictator. He wants

43:28

to be a mob boss. It's

43:30

really, I don't know what we're

43:32

going to do. It feels like

43:34

Elliot Ness lost and Al

43:36

Capone won. But here's

43:39

the thing. In 1928, the city

43:41

of Chicago was trying to

43:43

secure a free and fair

43:46

election in Cook County. So

43:48

who did they turn to? The

43:50

most powerful man in the

43:52

city. Al Capone agreed to get

43:54

the mobsters off the street for

43:57

24 hours. The president of the

43:59

Chicago The Fargo Crime Commission later

44:01

said that Capone helped organize,

44:03

and I quote, the squarist

44:05

and the most successful election

44:07

day in 40 years, there

44:09

was not one complaint, not

44:11

one election fraud, and no

44:13

threat of trouble all day.

44:16

Al Capone could be trusted

44:18

with an election. The President

44:20

of the United States. Not so

44:22

much. If

44:34

there's If there's one thing

44:36

that my family and friends

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know me for, it's being an

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amazing gift an I owe it

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all to I owe it all to from

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1800flowers.com, my one -stop shopping site

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that has amazing gifts for

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every occasion. With Celebrations Passport, I

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learn more and take your

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gift -giving to the next level,

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visit 1800flowers.com to the next That's 1800flowers.com Acast.

45:05

for listening to this episode of

45:07

the slow newscast. It was reported

45:09

by Me, Stephen Armstrong,

45:11

and produced by Claudia Williams.

45:13

The editor was Jasper Corbett,

45:16

sound design by Dominic Delaggy,

45:18

with artwork by Lola Williams.

45:25

Tortus. Enjoy a brilliant

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in all caps. I'm Natalia I'm

46:20

Natalia Melman And and from

46:22

the BBC, this is Peak

46:24

Danger. Danger. The beautiful mountain in

46:26

the world. in the you

46:28

die on the mountain, the

46:31

you stay on the mountain.

46:33

stay on the mountain. This is the is

46:35

the story of what

46:37

happened when 11 died on

46:39

one of the the deadliest mountains, mountains,

46:42

And of the risks we'll

46:44

take to feel truly alive.

46:46

alive. I tell all the

46:49

details, you won't believe it it anymore.

46:51

Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you

46:53

get your your podcasts.