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Terms and Conditions apply. I'm

1:11

Francis Lam and this is the Splendid

1:13

Table from APM. Sometimes

1:21

food means more than

1:23

just the food. In North

1:25

Philadelphia, there's a pizzeria that is maybe

1:28

the most innovative, and I might say

1:30

the most important pizza shop I've ever

1:32

come across. It's called Down

1:34

North Pizza, and its founder,

1:36

Mohamed Abdulhadi, says the point

1:38

of the place is to sling pies and

1:40

save lives. He means it literally. In

1:43

his community, two -thirds of people

1:45

who come home from prison end

1:47

up back in prison. largely because

1:49

they come home to situations with

1:51

no money, no resources, and no jobs.

1:54

He started the restaurant

1:56

specifically to hire only formerly

1:58

incarcerated people. He's the

2:00

author of a new cookbook, too, because the pies

2:02

are really just that good. It's called Weed

2:04

the Pizza, we'll catch up with him later on

2:06

in the show. But

2:10

first, we're going to talk with

2:12

my good friend, Lisa Donovan. Lisa is

2:14

a terrific pastry chef. has worked

2:16

in some of the most respected restaurants

2:18

in the South. After decades

2:20

doing that, she's turned to writing

2:22

and leading cooking classes abroad. And

2:25

we have her here today to take on

2:27

some of your cooking questions with me. So

2:29

hey, Lisa, it's great to see you. Hey,

2:31

Frances. I'm glad to be here. Oh,

2:34

one of my favorite people. You

2:36

know, it's been a little while since

2:38

we've gotten to have you on the show.

2:40

You've been busy. You've been What

2:42

are you doing? You're leading cooking adventures in

2:44

France. Going back and forth from

2:47

there to home in Nashville. You're

2:49

actually currently in New Orleans. And

2:51

you've been writing a monthly cooking

2:53

column for the New York Times magazine.

2:56

And okay, so you've always had a thing for New

2:58

Orleans. I know that about you. I remember reading that

3:00

book as well. And I

3:02

want to ask you about one of your recent

3:04

columns. It's about a

3:07

cake you actually had in New

3:09

Orleans called Gâteau Nannas. Yeah,

3:11

and technically I didn't have it. It

3:13

depends on who you ask. Some people say

3:15

Gato Nana. Some people say Gato Nana. And

3:19

I actually didn't have it in New

3:21

Orleans. I have had

3:23

versions of it all, you

3:25

know, in France. They have Gato Breton. They

3:28

have different types of things that are very

3:30

similar to this in France. And

3:32

this comes from

3:34

Melissa. Martin's book her

3:36

new book Bayou and it's a

3:38

recipe from a bakery not far from

3:40

where she's from and I might

3:42

have to get I feel terrible because

3:45

I've been in such a flurry

3:47

that I recall the name

3:49

of the town but It's

3:51

a beautiful version of a very

3:53

traditional French Gato

3:56

called Gato Breton, and this is

3:58

got pecans in it instead of

4:00

using almonds, which is sort of

4:02

the thing that I love the

4:04

most about discovering is whenever you

4:06

can find things that sort of

4:08

are very cross cultural, but the

4:10

same idea just with different ingredients

4:12

based on where you're, where you're

4:14

from, what your locality is. So

4:16

I love it because it's made

4:18

with pecans. And as a southerner,

4:20

pecan is sort of one of

4:22

my top. So

4:25

yeah, so I really

4:27

love that recipe quite a

4:29

bit and Well,

4:31

describe it for us. Describe this cake

4:34

for us. So you're basically making like

4:36

a really beautiful short crust that's, you

4:38

know, you can do this with like

4:40

a quick puff, but this particular dough

4:42

is made more of like a short

4:44

crust. And you make it almost like

4:47

a galette de roi where you've got

4:49

a bottom crust and a top crust.

4:51

And then you've got like a frangipan

4:53

in the center. But instead of a

4:55

frangipan made with almonds, you're basically making

4:57

it with toasted pecans, which is so

4:59

much nuttier and warmer. flavor and especially

5:02

if you're from a region that is

5:04

prolific and pecans. It's like a very

5:06

homey taste, I think, to a lot

5:08

of us. I know, like, when I

5:10

was growing up, my grandparents lived in

5:12

Live Oak, Florida, and they had pecan

5:14

trees everywhere. And one of our things

5:17

to do was to sit around watching,

5:19

you know, mandrel sisters pick and pecans

5:21

from the yard. And so for me,

5:23

like, pecans is such a childhood, southern

5:25

childhood memory. And this

5:27

is such a beautiful recipe that

5:29

really elevates it into this

5:32

very classic you

5:34

know, very French -inspired cake,

5:36

which, um, full of vanilla,

5:38

full of, you know, beautiful flavors that

5:40

are just very simple and warm, and

5:42

it's a really great holiday cake. I

5:44

love it so much. Oh,

5:46

cool. So I love frangipan, like,

5:49

those, like, almond -paste -filled things. too.

5:51

Like, I love it. At some

5:53

point, I realized, uh,

5:55

I changed from, like, a chocolate croissant person to

5:57

an almond croissant person, because I love that

5:59

almond paste at frangipan. So good.

6:01

Um, when you make that, And usually the

6:03

people will just buy it, right? You can just buy

6:05

the for in Japan. But often I

6:07

find it's very sweet and almost like plastic

6:10

-y. It's not so super delicious. When

6:12

you make it fresh and you make

6:14

it with pecan, say, is

6:16

it just like blending the nuts and

6:18

sugar? Yeah, and butter

6:20

and so, you know, I Admittedly like

6:22

there are beautiful for in Japan recipes that

6:24

you can follow I always just sort

6:26

of throw mine together with soft butter and

6:28

nuts and sugar and then maybe just

6:30

like get one little egg in there just

6:32

so it's nice and spreadable. And then

6:34

it kind of bakes up a little bit

6:36

more and kind of brings everything together

6:38

a little bit. And the great thing about,

6:41

yeah, I put it in a, you

6:43

know, who's a what's it, a little

6:45

Cuisinart, a little blender and just get

6:47

it nice and like, you know, pasty.

6:49

And basically you're looking for a texture

6:51

that is akin to like a peanut

6:53

butter, like a chunky peanut butter, you

6:56

know, like a natural. kind of peanut

6:58

butter, maybe just a little thicker. And

7:00

the great thing about making your own, it's so simple,

7:02

you know, you get your almond paste or you make

7:04

your own almond paste, you can just use nuts. And

7:07

I always, you should always toast your

7:09

nuts pretty much in any application just

7:11

to sort of bring out some of

7:13

the flavor and to really kind of

7:15

help them, you know, you don't want

7:17

to, you don't want to blend them.

7:19

warm, though, I will say, because then,

7:21

you know, you know, Oh, did I

7:24

start to, like, melt? Like, kind of,

7:26

like, the puree? Yeah, and if you

7:28

do want, like, a really smooth, I

7:30

kind of like mine a little bit,

7:32

to have a little bit of the

7:34

nut texture to it. You can also

7:36

buy, like,

7:39

what's it called, you can also

7:41

buy just almond paste and use that,

7:43

or some kind of nut paste and

7:46

use that. But the great

7:48

thing about making it You know on

7:50

your own is it's first it's so

7:52

simple and secondly you can always like

7:54

up the salt a little bit take

7:56

down the sugar a little bit I

7:58

love putting warmer notes in mine with

8:00

vanilla and I'll hit it with a

8:02

little brandy or rum You know just

8:04

something to sort of like round it

8:06

out and sort of I hate the

8:08

word elevate, but you know like bring

8:11

it out Yeah, like like have

8:13

a have a little bit more of a conversation with

8:15

it instead of it just being a sweet nut, you

8:17

know A

8:19

conversation with nuts. It feels like

8:21

a modern life, actually. Yeah, seriously. Speaking

8:24

of which, although I am not saying

8:26

anything about our callers, they are probably really

8:28

lovely people. You

8:30

want to take some callers with us? I

8:32

would love that. It would be so fun. OK,

8:34

so let's bring on Angela. Hello.

8:37

Hi, Angela. Hey, Angela. So nice

8:39

to meet you. Hi, Seth. How are you? Great.

8:41

So where are you calling from?

8:44

I'm in northern Michigan. I'm in Suboygan,

8:46

right below the Mackinac Bridge. Oh,

8:48

beautiful. I love it. I am an

8:50

honorary Michigander at heart, so I

8:52

love. Oh, really? I didn't know that.

8:55

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love it. I love

8:57

the college there. Yes. I have my oldest

8:59

is in Ann Arbor now, so I love

9:01

it when I hear you refer to it

9:03

on your show. Oh, that's wonderful.

9:06

Well, great. And Sheboygan is gorgeous. It

9:08

really is. So Sheboygan. Anyway, we don't even have to

9:10

talk about geography. What

9:12

do you have in mind? What can we

9:14

talk about? Well, I don't

9:17

have access to fresh produce very

9:19

long. It's about four weeks of

9:21

a harvest season if we're lucky.

9:24

And I've been buying celebrity

9:26

cookbooks for years. And I

9:28

finally was able to go

9:31

to one of my cookbook

9:33

authors actual restaurant. And one

9:35

of the things I ordered was a marinara sauce. And

9:37

I thought I'd been recreating

9:40

it with his cookbook, but I

9:42

obviously wasn't because it was

9:44

so much better. And this

9:46

is my thought and correct me if I'm

9:48

wrong but marinara sauce doesn't take a

9:50

lot of like technical skill So I thought

9:52

it has to be the ingredient and

9:54

then the recipe it said two tablespoons of

9:56

tomato paste And I would just buy

9:58

the little like three inch can from the

10:01

grocery store Sure, and then I heard

10:03

your episode on tomato paste and I thought

10:05

I wonder if maybe I'm just not

10:07

Using the right ingredients and it's so like

10:09

how can I make? You

10:11

know the tomato paste that could be a

10:13

staple in so many things and

10:15

make them better. First

10:18

of all, I want to say thank

10:20

you for being a listener. Second

10:22

of all, I want to say I love us. I

10:24

love that you're like, I listened to your

10:26

episode about tomato paste. I'm like, I made

10:28

a show. We talk about like an episode

10:30

of tomato paste. Like

10:33

in any other part of the world, they'll be like,

10:35

what's wrong with you? Like, why would you bother talking

10:37

about this? But you know, I love tomato paste. You

10:40

know, the specifics are so helpful

10:42

because they're the foundation, you know, so

10:44

it's great. Yeah. Well, I

10:46

mean, Lisa, I have spent

10:48

so many hours making tomato paste. I

10:50

used to think it was something,

10:52

I used to think I was doing

10:54

something else. Like I

10:56

was making tomato concentrate. Or

10:59

was making, like, tomato jam. Or

11:01

I was making strato. And

11:04

then one time, the woman who would become my

11:06

wife came into the kitchen. And I was always

11:08

on, like, hour three, stirring. And I was like,

11:11

babe, look what I'm doing. It's going to be

11:13

amazing. And she's like, you

11:15

made tomato paste. Yeah, that's why she's your

11:17

wife. And that's why you're smart for making

11:19

her your wife. No

11:21

nonsense, that one. Literally,

11:23

she said. You made tomato paste.

11:25

It's cheap and comes in cans. Yeah.

11:29

But it is good. I don't, you know,

11:31

there are things that I find are

11:33

better to just buy. Like I've tried making

11:35

like pumpkin puree before, you know, but

11:37

just by the Libby. The Libby's just, you

11:39

know, like it's just made so perfectly.

11:42

But in this case, I think we're dealing

11:44

with something that actually is so special

11:46

to make and so easy to make. And

11:48

so it's just a little bit of

11:50

your time, you know, but like If you

11:52

can get your hands on some really

11:54

good tomatoes, why not? Like, how do you

11:56

do, do you guys do your, in

11:58

the oven or stove top or combo both?

12:00

How do you guys do it? Wait,

12:03

Angela, so you have not made the tomato

12:05

paste yet, right? Your question is like, what's

12:07

the secret to making tomato paste? What's

12:09

the secret? And also, do you have

12:11

some good ideas? I know by local

12:14

and everything, but if I did have

12:16

to order frozen or freeze them or,

12:18

you know, just recommendations on

12:20

types of tomatoes. and

12:22

different varieties and whatever you feel

12:24

like talking about I would like

12:27

to hear anything about it. You

12:30

don't want to do that. Suddenly

12:34

we're at hour three of tomato

12:36

paste conversation. Lisa

12:40

Donovan is the author of the

12:42

memoir Our Lady of Perpetual Hunger. She's

12:44

a cooking columnist for the New

12:46

York Times magazine and we'll be back

12:48

in a minute with more of

12:50

our passionate conversation about tomato paste and

12:52

we'll take more of your calls.

12:54

I'm Francis Lam and this is the

12:56

Splendid Table from APM. Ryan

13:00

Reynolds here for Mint Mobile.

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I don't know if you

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knew this, but anyone can

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13:59

Toyota, Let's Go Places. I'm

14:05

Francis Lam, and this is the show

14:07

for curious cooks and eaters. Before the

14:09

break, we were talking with Lisa Donovan,

14:11

taking your cooking questions, and

14:13

getting into all the finer points

14:16

of making tomato paste. Let's

14:18

get back to it. For

14:21

me, anyway, I

14:23

do make it, but I only

14:26

make it truly like... summer when like

14:28

your friend has a tomato plant

14:30

and they're just like trying to give

14:32

them away or they're not expensive

14:34

at the market because I would say

14:36

like this kind of goes against

14:38

every like local seasonal bone in my

14:40

body but I have been amazed

14:42

lately at like a few brands of

14:44

off -season tomatoes like I'm like holy

14:46

cow those taste really good to

14:48

the point where like I feel kind

14:51

of wrong eating them but like

14:53

I have found like different brands of

14:55

like Grocery store February tomato

14:57

is that tastes really really good. There's

14:59

these ones called honey bombs that are

15:01

like incredible And they also do they

15:03

have they have a few like lines

15:05

of them. There's a honey bomb. There's

15:07

a sugar bomb They're all called something

15:09

bomb and they're like I'm kind of

15:12

blown away by how tasty they are

15:14

But they're expensive and I wouldn't spend

15:16

the money to buy them to like

15:18

cook them for three hours and concentrate

15:20

them. You know I mean? I

15:22

would when like oh the tomatoes are like a dollar

15:24

a pound or like someone that hands you a whole

15:26

basket of them. So I

15:28

would say that however if you're like in

15:30

the off season and you really want like

15:33

a very and maybe we should talk a

15:35

little bit about the pleasures of making tomato

15:37

paste aside from like boy you really want

15:39

to stand there and stir for a long

15:41

time. There really

15:43

is something magical it's not just

15:45

I think the concentration where you're cooking

15:47

off all the water of the

15:49

tomatoes until they become a paste there

15:51

is something about like a very

15:53

sort of light caramelization and I don't

15:55

know I think there's something about

15:57

the cooking it's not just the evaporation

15:59

that makes them so not just

16:01

sweet and deep but like super umami

16:03

and that's why I enjoy making

16:05

it and I'm not like I don't

16:07

even can it I'll just like freeze

16:10

them, like put them in ice cube trays

16:12

and freeze I feel like freezing is the

16:14

best way to go with that too. I

16:16

prefer to just do them in a little

16:18

like one or two ounce scoop on a

16:20

sheet tray, freeze them and then pop them

16:22

in a bag and then you can just

16:24

grab a pre -portioned out amount, however, whatever

16:27

you need for your recipe. It's just

16:29

easier that way. When you go to the

16:31

trouble of canning, which I

16:33

love the process of canning, but you

16:35

can't really can less than what like

16:37

what are those little baby jars like

16:39

I think they're four ounces you know

16:41

are the smallest cans you can get

16:43

so you kind of have to then

16:45

think about working through if you don't

16:47

need all of that you know if

16:49

you just need a teaspoon or something

16:51

working through you know a can or

16:53

a jar of tomato paste versus just

16:55

being able to pop out you know

16:58

a little bit from the freezer is

17:00

better I think I think freezing is

17:02

uh is my is my favorite way

17:04

to go but I don't

17:06

I don't even mind, you know You

17:08

were talking about it being a bit

17:10

laborious to stand over and that sort

17:12

of being one of the drawbacks potentially

17:14

for someone but I think that's actually

17:16

the beauty of Making something like tomato

17:18

paste is you're kind of tethered to

17:20

a bit of a day where you

17:22

can walk away But you can set

17:24

these like 30 -minute timers and I like

17:26

to do mine in the oven because

17:28

I just I feel like that for

17:30

me in a nice, you know semi

17:32

-shallow baking dish just

17:34

and keep stirring because what you can

17:36

get in the oven are these really

17:38

beautiful caramelized edges of that pan that

17:40

you can then reincorporate and think

17:42

you can kind of get that on a

17:45

stovetop, but something gets lost I think when

17:47

you don't do it in an oven that

17:49

that richness that that depth I think that

17:51

you're looking for I think happens a little

17:53

more readily in the oven for it for

17:55

my experiences than over I love that yeah

17:57

I love that so basically so you just

17:59

take the fresh tomatoes I

18:02

don't even peel them. I just throw them in

18:04

a blender and then just in. Yeah, I

18:06

do see them though. I do like to sort

18:08

of like, you know, cut a little hole

18:10

in the butt. And I typically use plum tomatoes,

18:12

you know, and I'll use in the south,

18:14

you know, I'm from the south. So when we

18:16

get good tomatoes, we're going to be hard

18:18

pressed to do much with them, but just eat

18:21

them, you know, or make like, or, you

18:23

know, put them in a jar whole or. stewed

18:26

just a little bit. I

18:28

actually admittedly, I'm gonna get arrested

18:30

by the culinary police, but like

18:32

I actually find that the only

18:34

time I buy grocery store tomatoes

18:36

being from the South and all,

18:38

I really have a hard time

18:40

buying any grocery store tomatoes. I

18:42

haven't found one that I love yet, but if I

18:44

find myself with a bevy of

18:46

tomatoes that I don't actually care

18:49

about that might not be the most

18:51

flavorful. Actually, I think those for

18:53

me are the best ones to make

18:55

into a paste because really then

18:57

you get to work with pulling out

18:59

the flavor. Of course, the

19:01

better the tomato, the better the paste, but

19:03

it's actually a really good recipe to

19:05

use up some grocery store tomatoes that might

19:07

not be the best for tomato sandwich

19:09

or to make a whole sauce out of

19:11

because then what you really get to

19:13

do is pull the flavor out out of

19:16

whatever is in there of these like

19:18

picked too soon tomatoes or, you know, things

19:20

in the groceries. They weren't

19:22

God's children. Yeah, exactly.

19:24

They were not the chosen ones. Yeah,

19:30

but I'll just get the seeds out. But

19:32

I'm with you, man. I just like leave

19:34

the skin on and get them all processed

19:36

up. Yeah. Well, I hope

19:38

that helps, Angela. And I would say one more thing. If like, obviously

19:41

now like we're talking about you

19:43

live in Michigan, you know, like,

19:45

that probably won't be till August

19:47

for you or even September for

19:49

you to get your hands on

19:51

the really good tomatoes. For now,

19:53

I would say I would look

19:55

at Italian brands of tomato paste,

19:57

and if they're called, I forget,

19:59

is it strato? Tomato

20:02

strato, which basically means extract or, you

20:04

know, some of those are really incredibly

20:06

delicious, and it could be a little

20:08

bit pricey, but if you're using a

20:10

teaspoon at a time just to give

20:12

give some real oomph to your sauce.

20:14

It's really lovely. Or if you don't

20:16

have like a little splash of soy

20:18

sauce in the tomato sauce and the

20:20

marinara sauce, or it gives you a

20:22

lot of that umami that you might

20:24

be looking for. So that could be

20:26

a little... cheat for you too. And

20:28

I'll throw in, I'll throw in a

20:30

little bit of the oil from the

20:32

anchovy jar, if you guys want to

20:34

know. That's

20:37

always nice to just, if you're not, if you

20:39

don't want to fully commit to like the anchovy flavor,

20:41

just a little hit of that umami oil or

20:43

the, sorry, the, um, the anchovy

20:45

oil from the jar, if you get

20:47

that upright jar of anchovies, you

20:50

know, that's, that's a nice hit as

20:52

well. Just nice salinated little kick

20:54

there. If you want to just round

20:56

out your flavors. Yeah, I

20:58

think that would be great. And I, you

21:01

know, if I did go to

21:03

a specialty store and found the paste,

21:05

I could, I like your idea

21:07

of putting scoops and freezing little portions,

21:09

even, even if it's store bought

21:11

because it's always so sad to watch

21:13

that leftover half of a can

21:15

of tomato paste dry out in the

21:17

fridge. Yeah, nice.

21:20

Yeah, great. Cool.

21:24

Well, have fun. And thanks for the call.

21:26

Thanks. Thank you so much for having

21:28

me. a pleasure. Thanks for calling. All

21:31

right, let's go to our next caller, Lisa. This

21:33

is Jessamine. Hi,

21:36

this is Jessamine. I'm delighted to talk

21:38

to both of you. Hey, Jessamine. Nice to

21:40

hear from you. Thanks so much for

21:42

calling. Where are you calling from? Well, I'm

21:44

calling from Santee, South Carolina. All

21:46

right. Well, thank you. And what's your question? My

21:49

question is about how to incorporate

21:51

bitter flavors into different types of cuisine

21:53

to add some depth and complexity. I

21:56

really like to explore how I might

21:58

be able to use unsweetened chocolate to

22:00

add a bitter note, but I could

22:02

use some guidance because the only recipes

22:04

I'm finding are for sweet baked things.

22:06

And also, the other part of that

22:08

question is, is it all right for

22:10

that purpose to use the unsweetened baker's

22:13

chocolate or cocoa powder that I might

22:15

find in the baking aisle? Or do

22:17

I need to be able to look

22:19

out for a different type of product?

22:23

Hi. So many thoughts

22:25

about this. Great question. I

22:27

think I've never been asked this before

22:29

in my entire life. I've never heard someone

22:31

say, I want to experiment

22:33

with adding bitterness because I think

22:36

people think of bitterness as being

22:38

something only to be avoided. But

22:41

yeah, at least I go for this.

22:43

This is yeah. Well, I mean a

22:46

couple like the obvious thing that comes

22:48

to mind is like a Mexican mole

22:50

really uses it to sort of create

22:52

that sense of depth and I I

22:54

I understand, you know bitterness kind of

22:56

going to your point is is can

22:59

have in professional kitchens, at least

23:01

kind of a negative connotation. And I

23:03

think what we would call that

23:05

is just sort of a richness. I

23:07

think you're trying to sort of

23:09

find like an extra avenue in which

23:11

to sort of round out some

23:13

flavors. I

23:17

feel like when you're talking about

23:19

using an unsweetened chocolate or a

23:21

cocoa powder, what it

23:23

brings to my mind is more

23:25

of sort of an underflavor, if

23:27

that makes any sense, right? You're

23:29

trying to sort of hit a

23:31

different round instead of salty or

23:33

vinegar or anything like that. You're

23:35

really trying to bring something down

23:37

to the belly of its own

23:39

flavor, right? So when I think

23:41

of Molly, I think it's like

23:43

this richness. Francis and I just

23:45

had, you know, this beautiful duck

23:47

mole a few months ago and

23:49

now it's this place called Mais

23:51

de la Vida. And to

23:53

me, there is that sort of

23:56

suggestion of that bittersweet chocolate that

23:58

he's using in but really what

24:00

it's doing is it's taking all

24:02

of the other spices and all

24:04

of the other flavors that he

24:06

puts into that mole and just

24:09

grounds it, like immediately grounds it

24:11

into the dish. And it's so

24:13

beautiful. And I think You

24:16

know that's sort of the obvious one

24:18

is talking about a chalk when you're talking

24:20

about unsweetened chocolate is a mole But

24:22

I could see so many other places in

24:24

which you could put that You know

24:26

a lot of these Kind of game -ier

24:29

meats to me kind of my big call

24:31

for that, you know, maybe have this

24:33

sort of space to sort of create maybe

24:35

like a rich broth. And the way

24:37

that I'm thinking about this is sort of

24:39

almost like when you're braising something in

24:41

a red wine, maybe that might be a

24:43

fun place to sort of play around

24:45

with like a real depth. If you're finding

24:47

yourself with like, I don't know,

24:49

a venison or something like that, maybe

24:52

even a duck. I think duck and these

24:54

sort of richer meats maybe are calling

24:56

to sort of be grounded a little bit

24:58

because those flavors can get hit the

25:00

wrong way, right? But if you give it

25:02

something that's a little bit more grounded,

25:04

it might be nice. And just

25:07

to sort of answer your question

25:09

about the quality of chocolate, I'm a

25:11

huge fan and advocate for use what

25:13

you can find, right? that's

25:15

I think for me like the beauty

25:17

of cooking like use what you can

25:19

find with the understanding that of course

25:21

if you're standing there and you have

25:24

the option to get a nicer chocolate

25:26

that's going to be a different experience

25:28

you know not maybe marginally you know

25:30

but if you're really trying to sort

25:32

of play around with uh figuring out

25:34

what to do with this I would

25:36

just start with the I think that

25:39

baker's chocolate is just fine you know

25:41

it doesn't quite have um It

25:43

doesn't quite have the notes, if

25:45

you will. I don't really love to

25:47

talk about food like wine necessarily

25:49

because it starts to feel a bit

25:51

elitist. But the nicer the chocolate

25:53

or the more considered the chocolate is

25:55

made, the richer the flavor will

25:58

be. So just keep that in mind.

26:00

But I'm a big advocate for

26:02

using what you can find in cocoa

26:04

powder is a really good option

26:06

as well because that tends to sort

26:08

of be a little less processed

26:10

than the, than the bar might be,

26:12

you know. I would

26:14

also say to, I love what you have to

26:16

say, at least that it's like the bitterness,

26:18

particularly if you're using a dark chocolate, it kind

26:20

of like grounds the flavor more than anything

26:22

else. I would say the

26:24

same thing about the chocolate. And I'm a huge

26:26

fan of like lots of like, they're

26:29

all these new, like very

26:31

small batched bean to bar

26:33

chocolate makers, particularly in the

26:35

US. Like the

26:37

makers are here, the cacao, you

26:40

know, doesn't come from, it's

26:42

never local. You can't grow

26:44

cacao in most parts the United States. But,

26:46

you know, their whole thing is

26:48

like they really want to feature the

26:50

natural flavor of the cocoa beans

26:52

and all that. But

26:54

I do think a lot of

26:56

those really amazing chocolates are I

26:59

mean, if you have unlimited resources for

27:01

your recipe, sure, go for it. But if

27:03

you're going to be doing it with

27:05

spices, or red wine, or a braise, or

27:07

a meat, some of the

27:10

nuances probably are lost. And so, like Lisa said,

27:12

using whatever is on hand, like a

27:14

very bitter chocolate or a baker's

27:16

chocolate, kind of gets you that oomph.

27:18

Especially if you're using that, but

27:20

you don't necessarily need the sugar. You

27:22

can add the sugar. You can

27:24

control the sugar yourself. So

27:27

if you're adding like a 70 % dark chocolate,

27:29

you're also adding sugar to your recipe. And

27:31

maybe that's not what you want. Maybe you just

27:33

want the dark chocolate flavor. Yeah, that's a

27:35

great point. I have a

27:37

quick question. If we have a second

27:39

for you, Jessamine, is how have you

27:42

used it so far? Have you tried

27:44

using it in different applications yet? I

27:46

have not. I thought I would ask

27:48

for guidance before I performed too many

27:50

experiments in my kitchen. Do

27:52

you have any daydreams right now?

27:54

Are you imagining anything right

27:56

now with it? Well, you

27:58

know, I would like to. I like

28:00

the idea of the mola because we do

28:03

really like Hispanic food. And so I

28:05

think that would suit really well. If I

28:07

can find a couple good recipes for

28:09

that, I think I'll try that avenue first

28:11

and see where I get. A

28:14

great place to start is Patty Yanich

28:16

is an amazing Mexican -American chef and

28:18

she has some really beautiful recipes if

28:20

you want to look her up. It's

28:22

P -A -T -I -J -I -N -I -C -H. Patty Yanich

28:24

and she's got some beautiful recipes and

28:26

I know she's got a couple of

28:28

different Malay recipes if you want to

28:30

check them out. Good. I

28:32

think that's a good place for me to start. Yeah.

28:35

All right. Well, thank you both very much.

28:37

I really appreciate the guidance. Thank you for

28:39

the great question. That was a fun one

28:41

to think love that. You didn't have fun.

28:44

OK. Thanks again. Bye -bye. Take care.

28:46

Take care. Bye -bye. Hey,

28:48

I think we have a couple minutes left.

28:50

You want to try? We actually have a

28:52

voicemail from Rick. Let's try this one. This

28:55

is Rick Malone. And I do have

28:57

a question, and that's about garlic. When

28:59

a recipe calls for X number of

29:01

cloves of garlic. Does it matter how

29:03

large the cloves are? Do two tiny

29:05

cloves equal one medium -sized clover? How

29:07

do you know? Or does it just

29:09

matter on how much you love garlic? I

29:13

gotta say, you know... This is

29:15

like the third -rail question for recipe

29:17

writers. Uh -huh. It's hard. We're

29:20

laughing because this is like literally the

29:22

question of the day every day whenever

29:24

you write recipes. You

29:26

know, it's so funny. And the

29:28

same goes for vanilla. So me and

29:31

Aaron Jean McDowell, we got to

29:33

cook last year in France and we

29:35

were talking about vanilla and she

29:37

has this turn of phrase that's basically,

29:39

you measure with your heart. And

29:41

I feel the same way about garlic.

29:43

I don't know if you do, but

29:46

you know, I just always basically, you

29:48

know, try to find the biggest,

29:50

heartiest, most beautiful clove. And that to me

29:52

is a clove. And if it's a smaller

29:54

one, well, then I use three. Yeah, yeah,

29:56

yeah. Yeah, I think that's exactly right. I

29:58

mean, every game it says, it's just like,

30:00

how much you like garlic. I think, yeah,

30:02

for the most part. I

30:04

mean, there are some people who are

30:06

super sensitive to the flavor of garlic. And

30:08

I think that changes too. Raw

30:11

garlic is a very different beast

30:13

than cooked garlic. So

30:15

if the recipe is

30:17

for raw garlic, I

30:20

would maybe try

30:22

to error, like

30:24

try to... around the side of caution

30:26

maybe and then add more later because you

30:29

know I said more you can't take

30:31

it out so if it's like one clove

30:33

and you have like a teeny clove

30:35

and you have like a massive clove maybe

30:37

start with the teeny one and then

30:39

see how much you like it and the

30:41

thing with garlic and in particular raw

30:43

garlic the flavor does tend to bloom meaning

30:46

once you've like minced up or grated

30:48

it or whatever the flavor actually

30:50

increases over time and it will actually

30:52

increase in the recipe over time so like

30:54

mix it in give it a moment

30:56

maybe even you know a few moments like

30:58

not like two minutes later but like

31:00

after a while maybe 10 minutes 20 minutes

31:02

um see how that flavor is you

31:05

know how that flavor is like where you

31:07

want it then great otherwise you can

31:09

add a little more but if it's a

31:11

cooked garlic i'm like sure whatever dude

31:13

like that's right you know a fistful two

31:16

tablespoons, just do whatever

31:18

you want. Exactly. If you've

31:20

got really beautiful, super fresh garlic,

31:23

I think a lot of people feel

31:25

like garlic is garlic is garlic. But

31:27

if you go to a farmer's market

31:29

and find some really beautifully fresh grown

31:31

garlic, it's actually a little bit more

31:34

vegetal than the garlic that find. It's

31:36

way more mild. That's right. It feels

31:38

very fresh in a way that's store

31:40

-bought garlic that's a bit you know,

31:43

aged, we'll call it, doesn't quite feel.

31:45

But yeah, it feels fresher and it's

31:47

a little less spicy and it's a

31:49

little less, you know, on the tip

31:51

of your tongue and it's instead in

31:53

sort of the round of your mouth,

31:55

you know. Yeah. Yeah. Again, you

31:57

know, yeah. And I guess it just

31:59

depends on like your application, like you're

32:02

saying, like for fresh, I probably would go

32:04

pretty light, but I love cooked garlic.

32:06

I mean, and if it's hot roasted

32:08

and smeared on something even better, you

32:10

know. Right on. Well,

32:12

Lisa, it has been so fun to

32:14

talk with you. Well, it's always nice

32:16

to talk with you. I love hanging

32:18

out with you, Frances, either over mole

32:20

or over questions in kitchen. Yeah, over

32:22

listening calls, yeah. Well, thanks for dropping

32:24

by. I'll talk you again soon. Yeah,

32:26

thanks, man. Bye. Lisa

32:30

Donovan is the author of the memoir

32:32

Our Lady of Perpetual Hunger and is

32:34

a cooking columnist for The New York

32:36

Times magazine. She left us with her

32:38

recipe for tart to 10. Told you,

32:40

she's been perfecting in France. Find

32:43

it at SplendidTable .org. Coming

32:45

up, maybe the most innovative

32:47

pizza shop ever is Mohammed

32:49

Abdul Hadi of Philadelphia's Down

32:52

North Pizza. I'm Francis Lam,

32:54

and this is The Splendid Table from

32:56

8 p .m. This

33:04

episode is brought to you

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by Shopify. Forget the frustration

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The home with Duncan is where you want to be. Click

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or tap the banner to shop now. I'm

33:59

Francis Lam, and this is the show for curious

34:01

cooks and eaters. Mohamed

34:03

Abdulhadi studied criminal justice policy

34:06

in college, founded and ran

34:08

multiple companies in different industries,

34:10

is a James Beard award winner, wrote

34:12

a cookbook called We The Pizza, and

34:14

is the owner of Down North Pizza

34:16

in Philadelphia. He also

34:18

worked his first shift in the restaurant,

34:21

wearing an ankle monitor, and Down

34:23

North's whole purpose is to employ

34:25

formerly incarcerated people, giving them stability and

34:27

a chance to rebuild their lives

34:29

after prison, all while making

34:31

some of the most inventive, delicious

34:33

pizza you can imagine. So

34:36

hey, Muhammad, it's so great to see you. It's

34:38

a pleasure to be seen. How's it going, Francis? I'm

34:42

OK. I'm OK. Thank you. So

34:44

Down North Pizza is

34:47

an award -winning restaurant. It

34:49

kind of invented its own style

34:51

of pizza. It has some of the

34:53

most creative sauces and toppings I've

34:55

ever seen. But none of

34:57

that, I don't think, is

34:59

the most important part of

35:01

Down North Pizza to you.

35:04

Tell us how you came to

35:06

open this restaurant and why

35:08

it matters. Wow,

35:11

that's a loaded question. I'm gonna dive

35:13

right in. Yeah,

35:15

so, no, of course,

35:17

we have some great flavor profiles.

35:19

We have some great recipes. That's

35:22

by far, it comes secondary to

35:24

the mission and what we stand for

35:26

here at Down North Pizza. where

35:28

we focus on a specific

35:30

group of individuals, and these individuals

35:32

have been impacted by the

35:35

carceral system, formerly incarcerated, to

35:37

be specific. And

35:39

we exclusively hire those

35:41

individuals. We focus on

35:43

improving their lifestyle and providing them

35:45

with various different resources to

35:47

navigate life post -incarceration, as we

35:49

know that life has changed drastically

35:51

going through the system. And

35:54

we understand the different nuances

35:56

that goes into trying

35:58

to stay out of prison.

36:01

So because we all have been impacted

36:03

by the carceral system, formerly

36:05

incarcerated, we understand that,

36:07

you know, community is very

36:09

important. Being around individuals

36:11

who can relate to the struggles

36:13

and the different things that you

36:16

have to endure coming out of

36:18

the system. So I

36:20

was more so focused on creating

36:22

that environment that was conducive to

36:24

growth to help these individuals navigate

36:26

that. And pizza was

36:28

just the vehicle to

36:30

carry the message and to

36:32

get these conversations started

36:34

about the overarching problem that

36:36

plays America as a

36:38

whole. Yeah. So,

36:42

you know, this is probably the first cookbook I've

36:44

ever seen. And I've seen

36:46

a lot of cookbooks. This is probably

36:48

the first cookbook I've ever seen that,

36:50

A, includes the word recidivism. and be

36:52

defiant for people. So this is not

36:54

a word that necessarily everyone knows, right?

36:56

But it refers to how people who

36:58

come out of prison often end up

37:00

back in prison. I believe

37:02

the statistic is that 40 %

37:04

of all prisoners come out of

37:06

prison and go back in within

37:08

a year. And in

37:10

North Philly, in your neighborhood, it's almost

37:12

66%. It's almost two thirds of everyone

37:14

who comes out goes back in. What

37:17

are some of the causes?

37:19

What are some of the

37:22

stories that you've seen that?

37:24

Influence that figure that that

37:26

sort of like kind of

37:28

makes it It's that kind

37:30

of like makes it inevitable

37:32

Um, I could start with

37:34

something as simple as resources,

37:36

right? Yeah resources readily available

37:38

to individuals like employment like

37:40

housing right which are the

37:42

two biggest drivers to recidivism

37:44

lack of employment and lack

37:46

of stable housing, right? So

37:48

sometimes what I've seen had experienced

37:50

what is individuals are forced to go

37:52

back to the same toxic environments

37:54

that they lived in before, that

37:58

got them in some of the situations,

38:00

they have to go back to those

38:02

places, go back to those particular

38:04

neighborhoods and environments that have caused them

38:07

to be a part of that

38:09

statistic. So you have

38:11

to have resources readily

38:13

available. because

38:15

we are in the neighborhood, which is

38:17

very important because to your point,

38:19

66 % of it happens here in

38:22

Strawberry Mansion. We need to be close

38:24

to the problem, right? So

38:26

we need to be in these

38:28

neighborhoods that have high recidivism rates so

38:30

that we can be visible and

38:32

let them know that there is hope,

38:34

right? But we also need to

38:36

show them there's hope. And

38:39

I want to just

38:41

touch on something about recidivism

38:43

that people may not

38:45

know as well. they assume,

38:47

right, that these individuals

38:49

are recommitting or committing additional

38:51

crimes to get back

38:53

into prison. But that's

38:55

not the case. A lot of

38:57

the times it's just things called,

38:59

they call DVs and they're direct

39:01

violations of stipulations that have been

39:04

put in place for individuals who

39:06

have been paroled or on probation

39:08

from incarceration. So we

39:10

look at simple things as driving

39:12

in the car with somebody who

39:14

doesn't have a license right or

39:16

being around another individual who was

39:19

on parole or You know simple

39:21

everyday things that people unconsciously this

39:23

do that can potentially land these

39:25

individuals back in prison So it's

39:27

a lot of direct violations that

39:29

are happening minor things You know

39:32

that these individuals can go back

39:34

to prison for a minimum of

39:36

six months Mm -hmm. So it's not

39:38

necessarily individuals are going out and

39:40

committing additional crimes. It's this direct

39:42

violations Right and

39:45

they could be so Minor right.

39:47

I think there's an example in the

39:49

book and I'm and I forget

39:51

how I was gonna forget exactly which

39:53

You know member of your team

39:55

had a situation where he had to

39:57

move I think he was living

39:59

with his grandmother grandmother lost her house

40:01

and then he didn't refile his

40:03

new address and That became a reason

40:05

to go back into the system.

40:07

Yeah, you talk about chef Mike. Okay.

40:09

Yeah, I know an unfortunate event

40:11

happened his the actual house we're talking

40:13

about burnt down. And

40:15

because he didn't report that right

40:17

away, it was a direct

40:20

violation. Because you can't change where

40:22

your address is, where they have

40:24

you pro to without informing them. So

40:26

that was a direct violation. And that

40:28

caused him to have to go back

40:30

into the system and back inside. And

40:33

we talk about things that say

40:35

if you get fired from your job

40:37

today, And you start another job

40:39

Monday, and you may have forgotten, like, oh,

40:41

let me call my PL Pro Officer to

40:43

be clear and tell him what happened. You

40:46

may have forgotten and stepped your mind. That's

40:48

a direct violation. You're switching employment without

40:50

notifying this Pro Officer. So that, in a

40:53

turn, can land you in jail. Mind

40:55

you, it was hard enough to get a

40:57

job in the first place, so you

40:59

got an additional one. And now

41:01

you're back inside going to lose that job.

41:03

And when you get released, if you

41:05

get released, you're starting back from square one.

41:07

So every time they go back in, it's

41:10

like, think about every six

41:12

months or every year, you

41:14

have to press a

41:16

reset button on your life

41:18

and everything that you've

41:20

accomplished within the previous year.

41:23

Right. And since you're mentioning jobs

41:25

and employment, obviously, you

41:27

know, that's one of the hugest

41:29

contributors to recidivism, right? You come out

41:31

of prison, it may have been you

41:34

know two years it may have been

41:36

decades but you come back out and you

41:38

don't necessarily have right a network to

41:40

help you keep you supported very hard to

41:42

get employment obviously a lot of employers

41:45

will discriminate against people who have come out

41:47

of the system many states you know

41:49

try to combat that by saying you're not

41:51

allowed to ask but people try to

41:53

find out anyway you know things like that

41:55

so that went into your decision to

41:57

open the restaurant the first place like literally

41:59

to open a business to hire people

42:01

to give them jobs and fair wages and

42:04

so on and so forth. Tell

42:06

us about that story. Tell us about like

42:08

the evolution of that idea, how that idea came

42:10

to you. And then tell us about how

42:12

it actually went down when you opened because you

42:14

have such a dramatic opening day story. So

42:18

yeah, so yes, I come from

42:20

a background. I've opened various different

42:22

businesses and I've always seen the

42:24

benefit of hiring individuals who have

42:26

been impacted by the car system.

42:29

So I come from a

42:31

healthcare background and I own

42:33

some treatment centers and drug

42:36

and alcohol to be specific. And

42:38

what I saw through that

42:40

process is that the focus is

42:42

on surrounding individuals who I've

42:45

been impacted by addiction with other

42:47

individuals who've been impacted by

42:49

addiction. Because of relatability, these

42:51

individuals understand where they've been

42:53

and understand some of the things

42:55

that the individual who's recovering

42:57

is going through, and not only

42:59

to put the individuals recovering

43:01

around each other, but also to

43:03

hire individuals who have experience

43:05

with recovery on a personal level.

43:08

And the statistic shows that

43:11

that stuff works, right? So

43:13

my thing is we need

43:15

to look at that from the

43:17

formerly incarcerated perspective as well,

43:19

because these people can relate to

43:21

each other on different levels. So

43:24

even when I was actually building

43:27

Down North Pizza, and I had

43:29

a construction team that was putting

43:31

this building together, those were

43:33

all individuals who were formerly incarcerated. So

43:35

when we talk about down north business, the

43:39

actual fabric and bones of this

43:41

building were built by individuals who've

43:43

been formerly incarcerated. So this full

43:45

circle moment of this actual physical

43:47

space that we're residing in, it

43:49

bleeds the mission in every aspect. What

43:54

we're doing is very very important for

43:56

the neighborhood because you know Philadelphia is very

43:58

territorial. I'm West Philly. This is North

44:00

Philly I couldn't just come into the neighborhood

44:02

and put this business here that did

44:04

not benefit the neighborhood as a whole Yeah,

44:06

and as the word got out about

44:08

that obviously you were trying to hire you

44:10

were sort of putting the word out

44:12

You're right in the book you're opening a

44:14

book talks about the opening of the

44:16

restaurant and you know on day one you

44:18

had a line at the door Was

44:21

it folks in the neighborhood being like, hey, you know,

44:23

we know this thing has been happening here. We want

44:25

to come check this out or what was it? Yeah,

44:28

honestly, when I first thought of the concept,

44:30

people thought I was out of my mind

44:32

because, you know, strawberry match in the neighborhood,

44:35

pizza, you know, I don't

44:37

have any background in the culinary space. So it

44:39

was like so many strikes against this business

44:41

is not succeeding in people's eyes. But

44:43

I didn't let that deter me because for one,

44:45

I know it needed to happen. And I was

44:48

very confident that we can make it happen. Even

44:50

being a black person in the

44:53

pizza space was something that was

44:55

foreign to a lot of people

44:57

because traditionally that's not the case.

45:00

So it was a lot of things that

45:02

people would look at as negative strikes

45:04

against us trying to develop and bring this

45:06

concept. So I didn't know what to

45:08

expect honestly. I was confident that we would

45:10

have some success. So when grand opening

45:12

and we had the line down the block,

45:14

I remember peeking my head out the

45:16

door and looking down the street and like,

45:19

Okay, this is happening like it's kind

45:21

of a surreal feeling because it's like

45:23

you think about these days You remember

45:25

the mishaps you remember the construction delays

45:27

you remember everything is sometimes in your

45:30

head You don't never see a finish

45:32

line because you just constantly have to

45:34

keep on working through whatever problem occurs,

45:36

right? So to see people lined up

45:38

and people from the neighborhood media people

45:40

from outside of the neighborhood people from

45:42

outside of the state of Pennsylvania, right? We're

45:45

so excited about this actually opening up

45:47

It just gave me a breath of,

45:49

like, fresh air and relief. Like, they

45:51

were on to something good. But

45:54

meanwhile, there were three you in the kitchen, Andrew.

45:57

Yeah, it was three of us. So

45:59

for a split moment, we forgot

46:01

about some of the staffing issues that,

46:03

you know, occurred in the beginning.

46:05

And we were like, OK, now, you

46:07

know, we got to get the work. And mind you,

46:09

as I said before, I had no culinary

46:12

experience. So, you know, bumping into Mike, you know,

46:14

the executive chef. Michael talked about

46:16

it, you know, a little bit in the

46:18

book. It was very frustrating for him to

46:20

turn around and I'd be right there. He

46:22

bumped into me, made drops out there. So

46:24

that in itself was like a journey for

46:26

me and I learned a lot. So for

46:28

everybody listening, I started off on the fries

46:30

and the wings and eventually made my way

46:32

up to the pizza. Yeah. You

46:36

with the work is over from the bottom too. Yes.

46:38

But tell us about Some of

46:41

the folks who have worked at Down

46:43

to Earth, you introduced some of them

46:45

to us in the book, like Miss

46:47

Tramiel, the matriarch of the team. Tell

46:49

us about her stories. Miss

46:51

Tramiel, she was the matriarch of

46:53

the team. She was like the

46:55

grandmother when we opened. And

46:57

she literally just came up

46:59

to the door one day we

47:01

were working. She was from

47:03

the neighborhood. and was

47:05

like, I need a job. I just came

47:07

home. I think she did a total

47:09

of five years and she just came home

47:11

and wanted to join the team. She

47:14

didn't have any experience per se in the

47:16

kitchen, but she had other skills, which

47:18

I believe everybody possessed a skill level, a

47:20

skill set of something, right? And

47:22

she became a part of

47:24

the prep team and the

47:26

expediter come grand opening. And

47:29

anybody that know who's from these

47:31

neighborhoods around Philly, It was always

47:33

like the matriarch or the grandma

47:35

around the neighborhood who always would

47:37

yell down the street to call

47:39

people's names, to tell them, like,

47:41

it's time to come in. So

47:44

Tramel bought that energy to

47:46

grand opening. So it wasn't a

47:48

traditional expediting experience. It was

47:51

us telling Ms. Tramel, such and

47:53

such, pizza is up. And

47:55

Tramel going outside yelling, send

47:57

your pizza up. And it became like a

47:59

thing. And it was very, very effective. And

48:03

it was very funny because a lot of people

48:05

could relate to that growing up and hearing your

48:07

mom or your grandma is calling your name and

48:09

it's like, oh, am I in trouble? So

48:13

that was, you know, some

48:15

of the great memories of Mr.

48:17

Mel and like everybody just

48:19

loved him and gravitated towards her.

48:21

And she would, you know, just

48:23

be so appreciative of being in this environment

48:25

and happy that, you know, we were willing to

48:28

take a chance to give her a chance

48:30

at. what we had going on. Let's

48:33

get to the food too. You

48:35

know, your pizza is not Chicago style. It's,

48:38

I guess people call it Detroit style, but

48:40

I think you like to call it, like

48:42

let's just call it Philly style. And you

48:44

really put an emphasis on that. All the

48:46

pizzas are named after songs from iconic Philadelphia

48:48

musicians, rappers, singers. Maybe

48:51

let's start with the signature sauce,

48:53

the north sauce. I've never seen

48:55

a pizza sauce recipe quite like

48:58

it. Describe your sauce to me.

49:00

North sauce, sweet, smoky, spicy. It's

49:03

a burst of flavors

49:05

that work. Mike likes to

49:07

coin himself as the flavor regulator. So

49:09

Mike, he likes flavorful things.

49:11

So, you know, everything that we

49:13

give you has some flavor to

49:16

it. So the North sauce, it's

49:18

spelled N -O -R -F because being from

49:20

Philly, that's how you say North

49:22

Philly. You know, vernacular

49:24

hair, you say North with a

49:26

F. So. That's why

49:28

it's called North Sauce, not

49:30

North Sauce. So that's

49:32

our signature marinara sauce that goes

49:34

on about 60 % of our

49:36

pies. Nothing's

49:38

traditional about Down North Pizza as

49:41

a brand, the individuals. So

49:43

we wanted to stay on brand with

49:45

everything that we did. So that's what you

49:47

get with the North Sauce. And

49:49

we always constantly correct people. if they

49:51

call it the north sauce. So, just

49:53

as that point. All

49:56

right, let's get to some of the

49:58

pies. I want to talk about one

50:00

that is kind of like, and

50:02

I know Chef Mike, a lot of these are

50:04

his creations, but this one seems very personal to him.

50:06

It's called Tales of a Hustler. Tell us about

50:09

this pie and what's on it and the story behind

50:11

it. So Mike,

50:13

he loves to smoke

50:15

things. You know, he

50:17

has a smoker and like you get from

50:19

a chance he'll smoke anything. You know, even

50:21

things that, you know, from a chef perspective

50:23

is not supposed to be smoked. So that's

50:25

a smoke brisket pie. And to the point

50:27

where it's like, you know, it's not a

50:29

traditional topping on a pizza, but we feel

50:31

like our pie is a blank canvas is

50:33

what we look at it essentially as a

50:35

blank canvas. So. That one was

50:37

very there to his heart. It's one

50:40

of his favorite Philly songs, one of

50:42

his favorite Philly artists, Amelio

50:44

Sparks from West Philly. Me

50:46

and Mike are from West Philly,

50:48

so it has that sentimental

50:50

value as well. You also

50:52

do a lot of vegan pies.

50:55

Yes. Tell us about that. The

50:57

PSK sounds incredible, that has oyster

50:59

and shiitake mushrooms, onion peppers, and

51:01

aji amarillo sauce, so like a

51:03

Peruvian chili sauce. Why the focus

51:05

on the vegan pies, too? Because

51:08

we noticed that because, you

51:10

know, I myself, I don't eat

51:12

dairy. So we

51:14

understand that there's a market out

51:16

there for individuals who don't particularly,

51:18

you know, eat dairy or have

51:20

dairy allergies, right? But would like

51:23

to enjoy a nice vegan pie.

51:25

And also people who are not

51:27

vegan enjoy these pies. And

51:29

I've actually tricked some of my friends and this

51:31

gave them the pizza, not telling them it was

51:33

vegan. And they was

51:35

eating like, yo, what's this? It's so good. I'm

51:37

like, you know, that was vegan, right? I know

51:39

that wasn't vegan. So it's like, you know, sometimes

51:41

that's a good way to test some vegan stuff.

51:43

Just give it to him and this, you know,

51:46

see what happens after that. All

51:48

right, Muhammad. Well, I first I would have

51:50

thought it was pretty funny that a guy doesn't

51:52

need dairy. He decided to open a pizza

51:54

place. But now I understand it's all part of

51:56

the larger mission, right? It's all larger mission

51:58

of community and giving people. from different a

52:00

place where they feel like they can belong. So thank you

52:02

for that and thank you for spending the time with us

52:04

today. No, I appreciate it and

52:06

you know for those of you listening

52:09

Down North read a pizza. Check us

52:11

out. Read a pizza. Muhammad

52:14

Abdul is founder and owner of

52:16

Down North Pizza in Philadelphia. His

52:18

new cookbook is called We The Pizza,

52:20

Slang and Pies and Save and Lies. You

52:23

can find a recipe for their signature

52:25

sauce, North Sauce, at

52:27

SplendidTable .org. And that is

52:29

our show for this week. Thank you for

52:31

listening and we'll talk to you next week. APM

52:34

Studios are run by Chandra Kovadi

52:36

and Joanne Griffith. The Splendid Table

52:39

is created by Sally Swift and

52:41

Linda Zittal -Casper. It's made each

52:43

week by technical producer Jennifer Loopy,

52:45

producer Eric Coderon -Mano, digital producer James

52:47

Napoli, and Maderjee producer Sally Swift.

52:49

And hey, we want to hear

52:51

what you think. Send us your

52:53

thoughts, your story ideas, and your

52:55

cooking questions anytime. Get to us

52:57

on social or email contact at

52:59

splendidtable .org. I'm Francis Lam and

53:01

this is APM Studios.