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the Splendor table from APM.

1:17

It may sound like obscure

1:19

praise to say someone is

1:21

an icon in the world

1:23

of milling. But the folks

1:25

at King Arthur Bacon Company

1:28

definitely are that, and they

1:30

are definitely very proud of

1:32

it. This unique company built

1:34

itself on selling flour to

1:36

bakers, but has since grown

1:38

to have a whole baking

1:40

education business, a massive online

1:42

collection of thousands of recipes,

1:44

classic cookbooks, a baking hotline,

1:46

you can call, and even several

1:48

actual baking schools. But through

1:51

all of that... They've never had

1:53

a cookbook devoted solely to bread.

1:55

Until now. The King Arthur Bacon

1:58

Company's big book of bread is

2:00

a landmark publication. I just love

2:02

this book. Now I'm not actually

2:05

a big bread baker myself, but

2:07

I do dabble, and I really

2:09

understand how it becomes an obsession

2:12

for people. There's something beautiful about

2:14

just stirring some things together, making

2:16

a dough, and then giving it

2:19

time and watching it rise and

2:21

develop. It feels like you're nurturing

2:23

something, and in the end, you

2:26

get to have fresh bread. It's

2:28

something I definitely see myself getting

2:30

more and more into. And this

2:32

book is a great place to

2:35

start. It's got days-long, hard, cold,

2:37

sourdough projects, if that's what you're

2:39

into, and it also features breads

2:41

you can whip up for dinner

2:43

tonight, and everything in between. So

2:45

today we are joined by two

2:47

of the books, three authors, Jessica

2:49

Bartolana, staff editor, and Martin Philip,

2:52

King Arthur's Head Bread Bread Baker.

2:54

So hey Jessica, hey Martin, thanks

2:56

for coming by today. I'm stoked.

2:58

Oh man, totally our pleasure. We're happy

3:00

to be here. Well, okay, so like,

3:02

I think literally millions of people, I

3:05

grew up seeing King Arthur Flower in

3:07

the grocery store my whole life. And,

3:09

you know, I guess I didn't actually

3:11

quite realize that you do a lot

3:14

more than sell flour until, like,

3:16

everyone else I discovered that you

3:18

can actually bake bread at home

3:21

during the pandemic. I just like

3:23

I distinctly remember where I was

3:25

when I found all these recipes

3:28

on your website created by

3:30

a seemingly extremely nice people.

3:32

So tell us a little bit about

3:34

how King Arthur came to be and

3:36

actually what you do today. Yeah, I

3:39

mean, I think Flower remains sort of our,

3:41

oh God, I'm already going to get into

3:43

a pun. It remains our kind of bread and

3:45

butter. I think people know us for the lines

3:47

of, yeah, right now. I'll be here all day.

3:50

They know us for the flowers that they see

3:52

in the grocery store. But I think

3:54

it's true that a lot of people don't

3:56

sort of know, you know, the breadth and

3:58

depth of the company. over 200 years

4:01

old, but we continue to sort

4:03

of evolve. It's wild. It's a

4:05

really, really long time for any company.

4:07

You know, and of course, yes, we

4:09

have the flowers, but lots of other

4:11

baking supplies, but more than that, it's

4:14

like we have this very deep resource

4:16

of recipes, all of which are.

4:18

free on our website, rigorously tested.

4:20

We have baking schools in Vermont

4:22

and in Washington. You know, we

4:24

have a YouTube channel. We have

4:26

cookbooks, which we'll talk about. I

4:28

know today we have a podcast

4:31

that we're going to launch this spring.

4:33

So there's a lot happening

4:35

beyond just the flower. Yeah. Well,

4:37

so the company is 200 years

4:39

old. It's 200 plus. It's actually

4:41

almost as old as this country.

4:43

There just aren't that many companies

4:46

that are that. old really and

4:48

I mean I guess we've just

4:50

had flower needs for a long

4:52

time but how has it survived

4:54

how is it evolved Martin you've

4:57

been there a long time maybe

4:59

you can tell us a little

5:01

about that yeah I've been here

5:04

150 years no I get in

5:06

June I have my 19th anniversary

5:08

which is which seems amazing because

5:11

you know It's like a lifetime, right?

5:13

That's more than a chapter. It's like

5:15

a book or two. Yeah, so how

5:17

did that work? Well, it started with

5:19

the Sands Taylor and Wood Company. They

5:21

were an importer, and it just came

5:23

down through the family, and Frank and

5:26

Brenna Sands are still here, right here

5:28

in the upper valley, and still I

5:30

think inform us in many ways, culturally,

5:32

it's really, you know, we were talking

5:35

about the way that we're a flower

5:37

company, and while that's true. And in

5:39

addition to the content, the schools and

5:41

all of those things, I feel like

5:43

beneath all of that sort of

5:45

foundationally is this culture of people

5:48

who love to make things and share

5:50

with others, people who celebrate the simple

5:52

joy of baking, right? And I feel

5:54

like the way that that ties to

5:56

Frank and Brenna is that very

5:58

much the ethos of this country.

6:00

company was informed by

6:02

those foundations that they brought.

6:04

In the past 30 years

6:07

or so, 20 years, the

6:09

company has transitioned out of

6:11

that private ownership into the

6:13

hands of employees. We're now

6:15

employee owned. And so in

6:18

that sense, we continue their

6:20

legacy by supporting it with

6:22

this beautiful culture that we have that

6:24

also includes things like 1% for the

6:26

planet or you know we're a certified

6:29

B corporation meaning that we have these

6:31

values that relate to company employees

6:33

our environment and all those things so

6:35

that's how a company I think stays

6:38

successful continues to evolve produces something that

6:40

is a values-based business that we love

6:42

to share you know with others so

6:45

I think that's how you do it

6:47

so there it is. There's a secret

6:49

easy is that. Okay, first have 200

6:51

years of ownership in the same family

6:54

and then decide to turn it over

6:56

to the employees. That is a really

6:58

awesome story though and I think that,

7:01

I think we're in a period where

7:03

the relationship between corporate owners and

7:05

labor is, you know, it's always,

7:07

there's always a kind of tension

7:10

there, but right now I think

7:12

it feels especially challenging and strained

7:14

to see a company that is

7:17

so old and so iconic. you

7:19

know, employee owned is, it's pretty special.

7:21

It's super special. Yeah, I mean,

7:23

and I think we all feel like

7:25

we lift each other up, you know,

7:27

I mean, and that's not just lip

7:29

service. It's like, there's parts of the

7:31

business that I have nothing to do

7:34

with. There's parts of the business that

7:36

I have nothing to do with. There's

7:38

parts of the business that I have

7:40

nothing to do with. There's parts

7:42

of the business that Martin has

7:44

nothing to do with. That feels good, you

7:46

know, and I think it's kind of rare,

7:48

and as you said, in a corporate setting.

7:50

That's really awesome. Cool. Well, actually, let's get

7:52

to, we have, we have a bunch of

7:54

callers that we're going to talk to with

7:57

you guys. I'm super excited for them to

7:59

come on the show. And I think Janine

8:01

has a question that is really

8:03

at the heart of what you

8:05

do. So hi Janine, where are you

8:08

calling from? Yes, hi. Thanks

8:10

so much for having me.

8:12

I'm calling from the DC

8:14

area. And my question is

8:16

about the differences with bleached

8:18

and unbleached flowers. I've been

8:20

baking for a long time

8:23

and I've tended to use

8:25

the King Arthur. the regular

8:27

all-purpose unbleached flowers. But

8:30

I've come across some

8:32

recipes where they specifically,

8:34

not King Arthur recipes,

8:37

mind you, but recipes

8:39

in general that will state

8:41

to use bleached flour. And I

8:43

never buy it, so I, you know,

8:45

tend not to ever really replicate

8:48

that recipe exactly. And

8:50

I'm wondering, am I

8:52

missing something by not using...

8:55

bleached flour, whether that's

8:57

the bleached cake flour

8:59

or bleached all-purpose

9:02

flour, and what is the

9:04

effect that it has on

9:07

a baked good, like a

9:09

cake or a cookie?

9:12

What exactly does using

9:14

bleached versus unbleached stew?

9:16

That's my question. Yeah, that's a

9:19

good one. I have no clue.

9:21

Yeah, so what does that mean?

9:23

Unbleached and unromated. So, you know,

9:25

you'll see that on our bags

9:27

of flour. And the reason I

9:29

mention bromate too is because they're

9:31

often sort of tied together in

9:33

flowers which are bleached. They're often

9:35

bromated as well out in the

9:37

world as you come across them.

9:40

And the reason that that's often

9:42

done is for reasons of strength.

9:44

So effectively you can take a

9:46

lower protein flour and sort of... make

9:48

it act a little bit more like

9:50

a high protein flower through the use

9:52

of those chemicals. The problem is that

9:55

their chemicals and you know many countries

9:57

have banned the subromate so it's not

9:59

something that we're sort of looking to

10:01

ingest. Right. In terms of bleach

10:03

though, Janine, you know, the most

10:05

commonplace that you'll see that, I

10:07

mean, you'll see it in some cake

10:09

flowers, right? And the reason that

10:11

they're doing that, again, is for

10:13

strength. But you'll also see it

10:16

in some of the other white

10:18

flowers that are available at retail.

10:20

And again, it's a way for

10:22

companies to sort of get more

10:24

out of a lower quality flower.

10:26

And I would say that what...

10:28

We are sort of interested in

10:30

is making flour, which is most

10:32

beautiful and most delicious. And so

10:34

when you bleach the flour, you

10:36

actually blanch out the carotenoid pigments.

10:38

These are pigments that exist in the

10:40

weed in the field. You know, it's

10:43

like beta carotene. It's what brings that

10:45

beautiful yellow hue. to a lot of the

10:47

foods that we eat, you know? So

10:49

when a bread comes out of the

10:51

oven and it has that golden quality,

10:53

not only is that from the bake,

10:55

but when you open the bread up,

10:58

the interior is also yellow, it's not

11:00

actually white, even though we also often,

11:02

you know, call it white bread. And so

11:04

for us, you know, choosing a flower which

11:06

is not bleached, leaves it a little

11:08

bit closer to the way it was

11:10

when it was milled. It's beautiful in

11:12

color and it also retains we really

11:14

want. You know, if you think about

11:17

bread, bread most often is, you know,

11:19

there are few ingredients. Flower water, salt,

11:21

sometimes yeast, right? Right. And so what

11:23

we want to do is start with

11:25

the highest quality sort of substrate or

11:27

flour to give us the best quality bread.

11:30

So you're basically saying that the

11:32

reason why people would use bleached

11:34

is for to make something stronger?

11:36

Yeah. So in a cake environment, you

11:38

know, a bleached flour would sort of

11:40

firm the structure. But there are examples

11:42

of some unbleached flowers out there that

11:45

do work well for cake. And I

11:47

don't want to get on my soapbox, but

11:49

King Arthur does have one that I think

11:51

does work very well. Which I have, which

11:54

I currently have in my pantries. I think

11:56

it's true, and Martin, correct me if I'm

11:58

wrong, but if you're seeing a... recipe that

12:00

calls for bleached flour, you know,

12:03

bleached all-purpose flour, say bleached cake

12:05

flour, you can swap in an unbleached

12:07

flour and nothing bad is going

12:09

to happen. Okay, I mean, because

12:12

that's what I've done, because I

12:14

never have the bleached varieties, but

12:16

I've always wondered, so yes, that

12:18

was helpful, so I appreciate your answer.

12:20

The one other thing that I would

12:22

add, Janine, is that... We're really fortunate

12:24

here and this goes back to the

12:27

sort of cultures of the company to

12:29

have a bakers hotline and basically it's

12:31

a team of trained bakers, many of

12:33

them with lots of professional experience that

12:35

are answering phones and sort of addressing

12:37

questions just like that. So if as

12:39

you, you know, get into your cake

12:41

baking and everything else, you have some

12:43

follow-up questions, we'd love to hear from

12:45

you. Yes, and I've actually utilized that

12:48

on your website. Yeah, it's real

12:50

people. Yeah, real people waiting to

12:52

answer the question. When does that

12:54

ever happen? You know, Genena, I

12:56

also want to let you know,

12:58

you said you're in the DC

13:00

area and we are opening a store

13:02

down in Alexandria this spring.

13:05

Are you really? We have a pop-up

13:07

right now. And... In Fairfax, yeah, but

13:09

we're opening in Alexandria. So I

13:11

hope you'll come and visit us.

13:13

It's gonna have a little baking

13:15

school there and you can come

13:17

hang out, ask Martin, all your

13:20

questions. Exactly. Yeah, oh, absolutely. I'm

13:22

so excited. Come on by. Yeah, you

13:24

don't need to twist my arms. Yeah, you

13:26

gotta go visit when they open. Well,

13:28

thanks so much for the college, Janine.

13:31

Yes, well, thanks for answering. I

13:33

appreciate it. I appreciate. book of

13:35

bread. We'll go back with more

13:37

of our conversation and your questions

13:39

in just a minute. I'm Francis

13:41

Lamb and this is The Splendy

13:43

Table from APM. A show is supported

13:45

by Emirates. We know you love the

13:47

thought of a vacation to Europe, sitting

13:49

in a Parisian cafe, exploring the ancient

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world's tallest building to the world's

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flying Emirates, it doesn't really matter. Choose

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learn more. I'm Francis Lamb and

15:06

this is the show for curious

15:08

cooks and eaters. We're spending

15:11

the hour today with Jessica

15:13

Badelana and Martin Philip, co-authors

15:15

of the King Arthur Bacon

15:17

Company Big Book of Bread.

15:19

And we're taking your baking

15:21

questions. Go back to it

15:23

with them. So obviously,

15:26

you know, when you go and buy

15:28

flour, most people buy AP all-purpose flour

15:30

for all purposes. Literally in the name,

15:33

that's the point. But there's

15:35

cake flour, there's pastry flour,

15:37

there's bread flour. And my understanding

15:39

is the difference between all of

15:41

those, at least in terms of

15:43

use for the customer, is the

15:45

protein percentage, like how strong those

15:47

flowers are. And you mentioned bleaching

15:49

has to do with the strength

15:51

through. Can you tell us a little bit

15:53

what that means? If you have, quote, the

15:55

wrong flour for a recipe, are there

15:58

ways you can adapt, adjust? or

16:00

you just got to go buy that flour

16:02

that the recipe calls for? Yeah, that's a

16:04

great question. You know, a few years

16:06

ago we started talking about flour IQ,

16:08

and it was really something that we

16:10

were trying to do to just bring

16:12

awareness to folks around the idea that

16:14

protein content in the US is what

16:16

we're using as the largest metric to

16:18

determine sort of grades of flour, like

16:20

beyond just sort of all-purpose and whole

16:22

wheat. Within the all-purpose varieties or the

16:24

white-flower varieties, we have these sort of

16:26

gradations of protein content. And the best

16:29

way that I can sort of describe

16:31

that is to say that if you

16:33

think of protein as sort of building

16:35

material, like it's the thing that we're

16:37

going to use to build our skyscraper

16:39

in the case of something like a

16:41

nice big sourdolo. Or, you know, we're

16:43

going to build something nice and low,

16:45

which needs less structural integrity, right?

16:47

And so, in the sourdough environment,

16:49

if I want to make a

16:51

nice high-rising loaf, I'm probably going

16:53

to use bread flour, you know,

16:55

especially for the sourdoughs that have

16:57

what we would call like high

16:59

hydration, you know, where water is

17:01

a high ratio of the percentage

17:04

of what sort of formulates the

17:06

batch, right? 12 point yeah just over

17:08

12 yeah just over 12 whereas all

17:10

purposes you know 11 7 pastry can

17:12

be down in the eight or nine

17:14

range even up to 10 in

17:17

some cases but basically if we

17:19

go from sort of weakest to

17:21

strongest it goes something like you

17:23

know cake and then pastry and

17:25

then all purpose and then bread

17:27

if we're just looking at the

17:30

sort of big categories. And so

17:32

Francis, in terms of like, can

17:34

you substitute? You know, within reason,

17:36

you can make some substitutions. I

17:38

wouldn't try and make, you know,

17:40

my like, big open hold, tartan

17:42

style sourdough loaf, you know, with

17:44

cake flour or pastry flour, right?

17:46

But there are some tricks for

17:48

how I could achieve that using

17:50

all-purpose flour. A lot of it

17:53

relates to the sort of moisture

17:55

holding capacity, so how much water

17:57

can that flower hold by weight,

17:59

bread flour? has more absorption so it

18:01

can take more water, you can have better

18:03

holes, you know, all of those things. Some

18:05

of that's a little bit, maybe, you know,

18:07

we're getting into nerdy territory here and

18:10

it's kind of where I like to

18:12

live, but I understand that some people's

18:14

eyes may be crossing. Suffice it to

18:16

say that, you know, flower, white flower,

18:18

exists on a continuum with sort of

18:20

lower protein up to higher protein. And

18:22

if you want to make a high

18:24

bread, use a high protein. If you're

18:26

looking at lower things. shortbreads, things like

18:29

that, more tender flour. Yeah, exactly. I

18:31

do think it's also like, it's, you

18:33

know, it's always sound advice, right? If

18:35

you're, you know, if you're a beginner

18:37

baker or just not a very experienced

18:39

baker to like, you know, stick to what

18:41

the recipe says, like you may not understand

18:43

why. But that's all the more reason to sort

18:46

of follow the guidelines for like, you know,

18:48

especially when it comes to baked stuff, because

18:50

I think there's less wiggle room there than

18:52

there is when you're, you know, cooking something.

18:54

And so, you know, not only do you

18:56

not want to use like a cake flour

18:58

for a loaf of bread, but also like

19:00

you don't want to use... bread flour for

19:02

a cake that you want to be nice

19:04

and tender. Like, so there's a reason that

19:07

the recipes are written. I feel like I'm

19:09

always like, follow the recipe. Like

19:11

people are like, really have to.

19:13

You're like, yeah, just follow the

19:15

recipe. And then, you know, once

19:17

you have a better understanding

19:20

of baking, particularly bread. And

19:22

then, you know, once you

19:24

have a better understanding of

19:27

baking, particularly bread baking, like,

19:29

Just do what the recipe tells you

19:31

to do. Just follow orders. Just

19:33

follow the recipe. Hey, okay, let's go

19:36

to Sarah. Hey, Sarah, where are you calling

19:38

from? Hi there, I'm calling from Minneapolis,

19:41

Minnesota. Ah, the wonderful city

19:43

of Minneapolis. Cool, what's your

19:45

question? My question is, I've

19:47

heard baking powder and baking

19:49

soda are essentially the same

19:52

ingredients. but one has an acid and the

19:54

other needs an acid added in order to 11

19:56

a baked item. So why are there so many

19:58

recipes that call for both? when the fission

20:00

amounts of one could do the trick. That

20:03

is a great question. That's a

20:05

good question. I'll take this one. Sarah's

20:07

my wife's name, so I feel like,

20:09

you know, I'm meant to answer Sarah's

20:11

question here. I mean, you're right that

20:13

baking soda needs acid to activate

20:15

it. That creates the carbon dioxide.

20:17

You know, we all remember that

20:20

from making the volcanoes in

20:22

kindergarten, right? But you only want

20:24

to use enough soda to neutralize the

20:26

acid in the recipe because too much

20:28

soda makes things taste bad. Like if

20:30

you've ever bitten something that has into

20:33

something that has too much baking soda

20:35

and you're like, what's that weird gross

20:37

metallic flavor? Yeah, it's terrible. It's terrible.

20:39

It's terrible. And then you're also right,

20:42

the baking powder is already acidic. So

20:44

you don't have to have acid in

20:46

your recipe and order. for baking

20:48

powder to work. Baking soda also,

20:51

you know, works more quickly, baking

20:53

powder has kind of a slower burn.

20:55

But that's your question about like why

20:57

you would use both. I mean, sometimes

21:00

the amount of soda that you would

21:02

need to like leaven, the thing you're

21:04

trying to leaven. you wouldn't

21:06

be able to add enough of it

21:09

without getting that disgusting flavor, right? So

21:11

if you, so you add powder, which

21:13

gives you sort of a little

21:15

bit of insurance, and kind of

21:17

bolsters the rise. And conversely, if

21:20

you use only baking powder, your

21:22

baked good might taste too acidic,

21:24

because, you know, as we said, it

21:26

already has, you know, the acidic

21:29

element added to it. So that's

21:31

why you use a mix. And

21:33

baking soda also helps with spreading.

21:35

I have sometime, I don't know,

21:37

way back early in my cooking career,

21:39

I was taught powder for puff, soda

21:41

for spread, which is partially true. So

21:44

I kind of, you know, I kind

21:46

of bear that in mind. But that's

21:48

why some recipes will have both, you

21:50

know, powder and soda and some you

21:53

can get away with just one or

21:55

the other. So I hope that's helpful.

21:57

You were totally on the right track.

22:00

And again, you know, follow the

22:02

recipe. If it tells you to

22:04

use, you know, one or the

22:06

other, just do what it says.

22:08

Absolutely, thank you. All right, thanks

22:11

for calling. So, Jessica, you

22:13

mentioned the sort of flavor

22:15

effect of baking soda, baking

22:18

powder. Obviously, you know. bread

22:20

needs to rise in some way, right?

22:22

And sour dough is because it's naturally

22:25

fermented, and so like wild yeast in

22:27

the air are creating the carbon dioxide

22:29

bubbles in your dough. When you add

22:31

yeast to a dough, then you're adding

22:33

the yeast, it's not a wild yeast,

22:35

so you're waiting to reproduce, right? The

22:37

yeast will start to eat the sugars

22:39

and create those bubbles. And then if

22:41

we use these chemical leveners like baking

22:44

soda, they're just chemicals, and they create

22:46

those bubbles. I want to get to

22:48

a recipe that... you have both on your

22:50

site and in the big book of bread.

22:52

It was actually the first King

22:54

Arthur recipe ever made I am

22:56

obsessed with. It is the English

22:59

muffin toasting bread and it's so

23:01

easy and it is a loaf of

23:03

bread but it tastes just like

23:05

English muffins which I love. So what makes

23:07

this recipe work? What is the

23:09

English muffin flavor? And the reason

23:11

why I'm bringing up now is

23:14

because I think there is both

23:16

yeast and I forget which I

23:18

forget which chemical lavender, but I

23:20

think soda, yeah, baking soda, right?

23:22

Yeah. It has both of them.

23:24

But what makes that like distinct

23:26

English muffin flavor? That's a good

23:28

question. I mean, I do think of

23:30

it as the flavor of fermentation, right?

23:32

Like when I think about English muffins,

23:35

I think about them as being like,

23:37

you know, even if they're not sour

23:39

dough as being like a little sour,

23:41

right, like a little acidic. So, I

23:43

mean, we have a recipe in the book

23:45

for straight up English muffins. that

23:48

natural fermentation will give you that

23:50

sort of like sour acidic flavor. This English

23:52

muffin toasting bread is like, you know, it's

23:54

a shortcut bread, right? Like it is one

23:57

of the easiest breads in the book. It's

23:59

a dump and stir. essentially, which I think

24:01

is sort of a relief for a new

24:03

bread baker. It has the baking soda, which

24:06

I think gives you that sort of acidic

24:08

English muffin flavor, but you have the yeast

24:10

to ensure like a nice rise. The pan

24:12

gets coated in cornmeal, the loaf gets coated

24:15

in cornmeal. So I also think like

24:17

that sort of sensory experience of like

24:19

the crusty cornmeal, you know, with

24:21

a soft interior is very evocative

24:23

of. English Muffins, and it also gives

24:26

you that nice, like, it's not an

24:28

open texture, like a holy piece

24:30

of sourdough bread, but it does have

24:32

like an openness to the crumb that you

24:34

don't get in, you know, some of the

24:37

other pan breads in the book, for example,

24:39

that have like, you know, a tighter, you

24:41

know, maybe softer crumb. This one's a

24:43

little bit more open and a little

24:45

bit more like, you know, a craggy

24:47

sort of nook and cranny situation, situation.

24:50

vehemently through this. So then

24:52

as I got it right, I

24:54

passed Martin's test. I'm sorry. Yeah,

24:56

no, no, flying color. If you're

24:59

sticking in your head. I get

25:01

nothing. But I also know that

25:03

you are a huge advocate of, hey,

25:05

if the bread didn't turn

25:07

out exactly the way you

25:09

want, try toasting it. And you

25:11

know, this bread is also

25:13

unique because you're calling a toasting

25:16

bread. You know, I'm sure it's

25:18

plenty good. the bread and toaster

25:20

or breads in general. Like I

25:22

feel almost like a stupid person like

25:25

being like tell me about toast. I

25:27

can talk for an hour about toast

25:29

honestly. You were putting your hand to

25:31

your mouth like you were salivating. But

25:33

what is the magic of toast? I

25:35

just said that. Oh my God. Well,

25:37

the magic of toast is simple. Our

25:40

next cookbook, that's what we'll call it.

25:42

Yeah, no, the magic of toast is

25:44

simple because, you know, not everybody realized

25:46

that toast is a food group, right?

25:48

I mean... I don't know, at least

25:50

in my house, almost everything gets toasted.

25:52

I've even seen my kids take bagels like, you know,

25:55

within an hour of them coming out of the oven

25:57

and slice them and throw them in the toaster. It's

25:59

just like... The toaster adds this textual

26:01

level that can't be replicated otherwise, you

26:03

know. And so to me, that English

26:06

muffin bread starts great, slices well, put

26:08

some soft butter on there and a

26:10

little bit of jam, and you know,

26:13

you're ready to go. But if you

26:15

toast it... you're bringing in that mayard

26:17

reaction through some additional browning, you're deepening

26:19

it, you're adding that textual crunch that

26:22

we all want when we get a

26:24

great English muffin. And so toasting sort

26:26

of next levels it. You know, and

26:28

there's a little bit of sugar in

26:30

the dough proper, which you know, will brown well.

26:33

There's a lot of milk, you know, the hydration

26:35

in that bread is largely milk. And so you've

26:37

got milk solids in there and all of that

26:39

stuff when it toasts, it only gets better. So,

26:42

so toast your bread, y' your bread, y' y'

26:44

y' y' y' y' all. Let's go to

26:46

another caller. We have Kai calling

26:48

from my home state of New

26:50

Jersey. Hey, Kai. Oh, hi. I'm

26:52

so glad to be connected. Hi.

26:55

Hi. Well, thank you for

26:57

a call. What's your question?

26:59

So my question is about Kwfant.

27:01

And I'm very happy to

27:03

say that I have, over

27:05

the past few months, after

27:07

many failed attempts, I have

27:09

learned how to make. somewhat

27:11

decent croissants and I wanted

27:13

to know because I've worked

27:16

so hard for that dough

27:18

and I wanted to know

27:20

what else I can make

27:22

besides chocolate crescants, almond crescons.

27:24

I kind of want to use

27:26

that dough as a base to

27:28

expand the variety of things I

27:31

can make in terms of different

27:33

flavors or different kinds of pastries.

27:36

God, I love that I work so hard

27:38

for the dough. I'm a, you know, Kay, I'm

27:40

with you. I feel like, you know, to

27:42

make a great croissant is a noble

27:44

goal, right? I mean, it's one of

27:46

those things, like people who are

27:48

into croissants, I don't know, I

27:51

feel like we should have our

27:53

own category in a way. It's

27:55

like, because we love the minutia,

27:57

we love the accuracy, we love

27:59

the beauty. but we also love the

28:01

flavor, the texture, the ways that fermentation

28:03

is managed, the way that the butter

28:05

works, all of these different factors which

28:07

sort of... come together at the top

28:09

of this mountain, which is like Mount

28:11

Crescent, right? If you can make it

28:13

there. You can make it anywhere, right?

28:15

So I feel like before we even

28:17

get to your question, I feel like

28:19

you should reach around, you know, to

28:22

your back and give yourself a pet

28:24

because getting to the top of that

28:26

is no joke, you know, it means

28:28

that you've worked hard. So in terms

28:30

of... What are some additional things that

28:32

you can do with laminated doughs?

28:34

I mean, in bakeries, the way

28:36

that we look at laminated dough

28:38

is sort of as a foundational

28:40

item. So we have our, you

28:42

know, we have our lean doughs,

28:44

we have our bagets, we have

28:46

our sour doughs, we have our

28:49

sourdoughs, we have our sourdoughs, we

28:51

have our laminated dough, and then

28:53

we'll use it for literally a

28:56

thousand things, you know, it could

28:58

be cinnamon bones, crescent loaves like

29:00

actual loaves of bread made from

29:03

crescents. My friend Roger Garall used

29:05

to take a baget and wrap

29:07

it inside of crescent though and

29:10

then score it in an arcade

29:12

bakery in New York City. That

29:15

place is incredible. Incredible. That baget

29:17

is unbelievable. I started going off

29:19

that for for sure. So rather than

29:21

giving you like one. sort of

29:23

answer I would say that really

29:25

the world is your oyster if

29:27

you have a well laminated, yeasted,

29:29

you know, croissant basedo. Some of

29:32

my favorite things to make with

29:34

croissants are actually Danish. I love to

29:36

cut squares like you would for your

29:38

ponschokala, right? And then I fold the

29:40

point of each square to the middle

29:42

and then press to sort of, you

29:44

know, make it here and then let

29:46

them proof up and then right before

29:48

baking I'll add a big... tablespoon

29:51

or so of a pastry cream that I

29:53

think is delicious and then a lattice-al to

29:55

it and maybe a piece of fresh fruit.

29:57

And it's so versatile that you can also

29:59

use... that for savory as well. So, you

30:01

know, you can put, you know, a duct

30:04

cell of mushroom in there and then add

30:06

some beautiful cheese. And then after it comes

30:08

out, maybe you give a little bit of

30:10

like a tomato confi and some fresh herbs

30:12

or something like that. Maybe one more,

30:14

you know, a trend that I've seen

30:16

lately is for people to pretzel some

30:18

of their crescent work or their laminated

30:20

dough work. So when you, you, you

30:22

know, have your... croissant dough made,

30:24

you decide on a form that

30:27

you want, maybe you roll it

30:29

up around a piece of ham

30:31

and a piece of cheese or

30:33

something like that, and then you

30:35

can brush it with a reduction

30:37

of, you know, bicardom and as

30:39

soda and water as you would,

30:41

like, maybe a pretzel or something,

30:43

and then sprinkle it with some

30:45

sesame seeds, and you get that,

30:47

like, incredible browning, and it's sort

30:49

of like as a pretzel. continuing your

30:52

love. Let me ask you a

30:54

question. So okay, a laminated dough,

30:56

a crescent dough, is a dough

30:58

you make by making a very

31:00

lean dough, and then you basically

31:02

take a slab of butter and

31:04

lay it on top, right? And

31:06

then they're the same shape, and

31:08

then you fold them together, and

31:11

then you fold them again, and

31:13

then you fold them again. And so

31:15

what happens is like, oh, there ends

31:17

up being like... dozens and dozens if

31:20

not hundreds of layers of like a

31:22

little bit of butter, a little bit

31:24

of dough, a little bit of butter.

31:26

And then when you bake it, that

31:28

butter melts, it creates steam and then

31:30

puffs the whole thing up and that's

31:33

why you have all these different

31:35

layers, right? So that's how it works.

31:37

So my question is, knowing that it's

31:39

all about that puff and making sure

31:41

those layers are still separate until

31:44

you bake it? ball them up or does

31:46

that ruin the whole effect if you like

31:48

ball them up and roll them out again

31:50

can you do other stuff with them or

31:52

are you basically defeating the purpose?

31:54

Yeah what we would do in a bakery

31:57

is if we know that we're making Danish

31:59

for example We would take all of our

32:01

trim, you open up your patant of dough,

32:03

your sort of dough block where you have

32:05

these mini, many layers of dough, butter dough,

32:07

we would open it up and then we

32:10

would put our scrap in there, put it

32:12

back together and then roll it out. Because

32:14

in a Danish, you are not going to

32:16

be as sort of worried about the structure

32:18

as I will be when I go to

32:21

cut open my crescent and see if I

32:23

have a nice honeycomb structure, right? In a bakery,

32:25

when we potentially can have a fair

32:27

amount of scrap, we'll open the block

32:30

up, we'll put our scrap in, put

32:32

it back together and then roll them

32:34

out. Now, at home, what I would

32:36

do is I would just take

32:38

those in pieces, those small bits that

32:41

I've trimmed, throw them into a nice

32:43

zip plot, press the air out, and

32:45

then throw them in the freezer. And

32:47

then, the next time that you go

32:50

to mix your base dough, just add

32:52

those scraps in, and mix them. you

32:54

know, you have this little remnant and

32:56

then that goes into the next batch

32:58

and you just, it incorporates right in

33:01

because if you think about it, that

33:03

base dough has ingredients which are flour,

33:05

salt, yeast, butter, right? It's all the

33:07

ingredients that are in the trim just

33:09

in a slightly different ratio. So take

33:11

that trim, you throw it into the batch

33:13

next time and then there's no waste.

33:15

And there's like some sort of

33:17

like, probably like, uh, spiritual thing happening

33:20

where like, you know, like, No, and

33:22

I mean, if you think about it,

33:24

that dough has had some fermentation too.

33:27

So you're not only not wasting, you're

33:29

adding flavor. You're adding a dough that's

33:31

got some experience, which is going to

33:33

just add more flavor. I like a dough with

33:35

some experience. Everyone looks

33:37

for youth and beauty, but I like

33:40

a dough with some experience. I think

33:42

that's me. Seeing some stuff. That's places.

33:44

All right, well, thank you for the

33:46

question, Kai. Thank you for the answers

33:48

and I look forward to making all

33:50

the things that you suggested. Thank you

33:52

so much. Thanks Guy and congratulations on

33:55

Climbing Crescent Mountain. The maps are not

33:57

easy to come by so you found

33:59

one. I'm very excited. Thank you. No,

34:01

it's a pleasure. Thank you. We're spending

34:04

the hour with co-authors of the

34:06

King Arthur Bacon Company's Big Book

34:08

of Bread, Jessica Battellana, and Martin

34:11

Philip. More coming up. I'm Francis

34:13

Lamb, and this is The Splendid

34:15

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35:59

Curious. books and eaters. We're

36:01

spending this episode talking with

36:03

two gifted baking teachers, Martin

36:05

Philip and Jessica Botelana, co-authors

36:07

in the Big Book of

36:09

Bread about the King Arthur Bacon Company.

36:12

Let's get back to it with them.

36:14

I want to ask about the proofing

36:16

process, because that's very confusing to me.

36:18

It's like kind of how you watch

36:21

the dough while it sort of rests

36:23

and as the yeast gets to their

36:25

work. Okay, so we watch like... We

36:27

have watched many thousands of hours of

36:29

like the great British baking show in our

36:31

home. Oh yeah. But I feel like every

36:34

episode it's like a constant string

36:36

of the judge is saying like

36:38

that's overproof, that's overproof, that's underproof,

36:40

that's underproof. What do those

36:42

things mean? And how do you know

36:45

when something's overproofed or something's underproof? That's

36:47

a super good question and it's one

36:49

of those bits of like empirical knowledge

36:51

that I think that it takes time

36:53

to sort of come around to, you know.

36:56

The way that I would describe proofing

36:58

is as the final stage before

37:00

breads or rolls or anything leaven

37:02

goes into the oven, right? It's

37:04

like the penultimate stage of the

37:07

baking process. And the quantity of

37:09

proof that you want to have

37:11

on any given item varies by

37:13

product. And I think that's one

37:15

of the things that is challenging

37:18

is that what determines a full

37:20

level of proof on my hala

37:22

is different than what might... put,

37:24

you know, my rolls or my chabata or

37:26

my panda crustal or another bread into that

37:29

same category or my bagets to be sure,

37:31

right? You know, bagets may not prove as

37:33

far as something that's in a pan, for

37:35

example, that has the support of the pan

37:38

and won't be scored. You want it to

37:40

be nice and high before it goes into

37:42

the oven. And so I think maybe that's

37:45

where some of the confusion comes in, you

37:47

know, is just the variability. I think this

37:49

is a major pain point. Actually, I think

37:51

it's a pain point that people don't even

37:54

realize it's a pain point. And I say

37:56

this because, you know, when Martin and Melie

37:58

and I were working on this. book, I tested

38:00

all the recipes, you know, in my

38:03

home kitchen, and I'm not the baker

38:05

that they are. Like, I bake lowercase

38:07

B, their capital B bakers. And so,

38:09

you know, I was baking these breads

38:11

in my kitchen here in Maine in

38:14

the winter, and I just was

38:16

like struggling. I sent all these

38:18

text messages and photos, I'm like,

38:20

it's not rising, the dough is

38:22

not moving, like it's supposed to do

38:24

this, it's not happening. And... you

38:26

know, we realized it's because I'm

38:28

like way too abstemious with the

38:30

heat in my house. Like my

38:33

kitchen was just not at the

38:35

optimal like temperature for proofing. And

38:37

so that's the other piece of

38:39

it. And then I found a

38:41

hack that fixed it, which Martin's

38:43

gonna like wince when I say

38:45

this to all the listeners out there. But

38:47

I now proof my bread in the

38:49

winter in my dryer in my dryer,

38:51

in my dryer. with or without clothes doesn't

38:54

matter and then I just set my

38:56

proofing either like when I bulk fermenting

38:58

my dough or once it's in the

39:00

pan or like you know about ready

39:02

to go in the oven I just put

39:04

it in you know my descending in

39:06

temperature dryer and it's a perfect

39:08

proofing box you know proofing boxes

39:11

normal people will buy proofing boxes

39:13

or like dough you know rising mats

39:15

but once I sort of like

39:17

understood that temperature was a part of

39:19

proofing like that to me you know because

39:21

I think old bread recipes say like put

39:23

in a warm place until doubled in size

39:26

well like how warm what you know I don't know

39:28

what doubled in size means well and that's

39:30

the other thing yeah yeah if something is

39:32

three inches tall you don't wait till

39:34

it becomes six inches tall that's

39:36

like that's like that's like 12

39:38

exercise because that's not how it

39:40

matters. Well, yeah, exactly. And when we

39:43

were talking about the panbreads, especially like

39:45

we have in the book, like, you know, we

39:47

tell you how high over the edge of the

39:49

pan, it should rise, like, should rise one inch

39:52

over the lip of the pan. And I think

39:54

I might have even left in the book, it

39:56

manuscript, like, don't guess, measure it, like, get out

39:58

of a ruler and actually hold it. next to

40:00

the pan and look, like, because

40:03

I'm very guilty of being like,

40:05

yeah, close enough, like, I do it

40:07

with like money, I do it with

40:09

size, I'm like, yeah. And I think,

40:11

yeah, and I think, yeah, and I

40:14

think, yeah, and I can't hear

40:16

your house. Yeah, exactly. You know,

40:18

so I do encourage people

40:20

to actually like, look for

40:22

those visual cues, and you

40:25

know, there's visual cues beyond

40:27

the pans. It's like, you

40:29

know, like, you know you start to

40:31

like develop your sort of spidey sense

40:33

for that but until you do develop

40:35

it it's like nice to have those

40:37

cues like written into a recipe or

40:39

written into a book to kind of

40:41

like guide you along your way. Okay

40:44

but then let's go to the over

40:46

and under sort of aspect if you

40:48

eat something you're like wow that was

40:50

overproofed or you eat something and go

40:52

that was underproof what does

40:54

that mean like what does the overproof

40:57

thing taste like? The judgment of underproof

40:59

versus overproof is entirely, again, dependent

41:01

on the type of bread that

41:03

you're making. So if it's collapsed,

41:05

then you're obviously overproofed. If it

41:07

looks tight and it sort of

41:09

blown seams out where it tried

41:11

to expand, that may be a

41:13

sign that you're looking at something

41:15

that's underproofed. But in terms of

41:17

flavor. My thing is that mostly home

41:20

bakers are under fermenting most of

41:22

the time the sort of error

41:24

is on the side of under

41:26

fermentation because and this gets to

41:28

Jessica's point a little bit around

41:30

managing fermentation really you want

41:33

to remember that while that dough

41:35

is working while it's rising first

41:37

rise second rise final proof whatever

41:39

it is you want to create

41:41

an environment where the dough feels

41:43

nurtured supported sort of you know,

41:45

cheered on in it's as it

41:47

goes to work. And for those,

41:49

what we're talking about is really

41:51

like mid 70s, you know, low

41:53

to mid 70s, even up to

41:55

say 78 degrees or 80 degrees.

41:57

In that zone, you've got to

42:00

balance between the ways which the

42:02

dough will develop flavor and also

42:04

gas, right? It will rise. When

42:06

you get up, you know, into

42:08

the 80s and high 80s, into

42:10

the low 90s, gas production will outrun

42:12

flavor production and then you have this

42:15

sort of imbalance. So in that situation

42:17

you can get into overproofing but what

42:19

I would say is that generally speaking

42:22

at home home bakers tend to under

42:24

ferment during what we call bolt fermentation

42:26

which is before shaping and then after

42:29

shaping you just want to continue to

42:31

nurture make sure that the dough is

42:33

in a moist environment and able to

42:35

rise to its sort of full potential.

42:38

Yeah. Let's go to another caller we

42:40

have. This is Charlotte. Hi, how are

42:42

you? Great, thanks. How are you? Where are

42:44

you calling from? I'm calling from

42:46

Los Angeles. Well, thanks for

42:48

the call, and what's your question?

42:51

My question is, what type

42:53

of gluten-free flour makes best

42:55

for Kacha? Ah, okay, not... I'm not

42:57

going to say anything about the fact

42:59

that like the one car that we

43:01

have from Los Angeles is

43:04

asking about gluten-free bread.

43:06

But that's fine. I know. Something

43:08

we should learn about anyway. So

43:11

what kind of gluten-free flour makes

43:13

the best focaccia? Yes. Yeah, it's

43:15

a good question. But before we

43:17

get to that, are you, Charlotte, are

43:20

you making other... things gluten free

43:22

like is everything gluten free have

43:24

you done some gluten free baking

43:26

or is or like what tell

43:28

me about your experience

43:30

or you know what you're doing

43:32

for baking yeah I'm mostly baking

43:34

like muffins or cookies that sort

43:36

of thing and have found that

43:38

those are easier with gluten free

43:40

flour mixes but have not really

43:42

had a lot of success or

43:44

have tried very many times to

43:46

make bread with gluten free flowers yeah

43:49

it's challenging right The reason that it's

43:51

challenging is that, you know, we're

43:53

talking about flower types and we're saying,

43:55

you know, lower protein makes flat

43:57

things. That's great. Higher protein supports higher.

44:00

rise. And, you know, in

44:02

the scheme of things, Focaccia

44:04

is one of those breads

44:06

that we want to be

44:08

high rising, right? It's sort

44:10

of signature characteristics are open

44:12

structure, high rising, puffy, crisp,

44:14

all of those things. And

44:17

so when we remove the

44:19

gluten, which is sort of

44:21

the structural material, right, that

44:23

we're literally using to build

44:25

this like bread skyscraper,

44:28

things get challenging. So each company

44:30

like King Arthur, we have our

44:32

own blend of flowers that we

44:35

use to compose our, you know,

44:37

for example, like gluten-free red flower,

44:39

for example, right? And if you

44:41

go to another company, the

44:43

flowers that they're going to choose

44:45

for that product are going to

44:48

change. And so within the

44:50

marketplace, it's not like we have

44:52

any sort of standard across

44:54

between companies for making

44:56

that flower. You know, my recommendation

44:58

would be if a company has

45:00

a gluten-free bread flour, then I

45:03

would use their focaccia recipe, basically.

45:05

Or, you know, if you're going

45:07

to make focaccia and you have,

45:09

like the King Arthur, you know,

45:11

gluten-free bread flour, for example, then

45:13

I would use our recipe because...

45:16

The quantity of water, and maybe

45:18

this is getting too like nerdy,

45:20

and so I apologize, but the

45:22

quantity of water required for different

45:24

blends of gluten-free flowers will change

45:26

by company. There's no standard. And

45:28

so if you take the quantity

45:30

of water that one recipe has

45:32

and then use another gluten-free flour

45:35

to produce that, you may find

45:37

yourself, you know, with too much hydration, too

45:39

much moisture, a dough that just doesn't

45:41

move in the way that you're hoping

45:43

for. And so... If a company has

45:45

a gluten-free flour, use the recipe that

45:47

they have for their focaccia. And plenty

45:49

of olive oil and coarse salt, and

45:52

I think you'll be happy. Yeah. Amazing.

45:54

Thank you so much. That's really helpful.

45:56

Good luck. Let us know how it turns out.

45:58

Send us a picture. Yeah, for sure. Thank

46:00

you so much. Well, thanks for the call,

46:02

Charlotte. Actually, while we're talking about gluten -free

46:04

things, it reminds

46:06

me of another recipe you have in the book,

46:08

which I have never heard of, super interested

46:11

in. It's the masa honey toasting

46:13

bread. Oh, yeah. And masa is

46:15

corn dough, is the corn dough

46:17

that you mimic corn tortillas out

46:19

of. And it's not a gluten

46:21

-free bread, but you take masa

46:23

and fold it into a dough

46:26

for a bread. That

46:28

sounds super interesting. How did you come up with that? Man,

46:31

I think that was the creation

46:34

of our co -author, Melanie. We

46:37

all love the

46:39

aroma and flavor of

46:41

masa. And

46:44

thinking about it functionally, it

46:46

doesn't have the gluten that a

46:48

wheat flour has. So to make

46:50

an all -masa bread, well, I mean, that's a

46:52

tortilla, right? But

46:55

the idea of could we

46:57

use a portion, and what portion

46:59

of masa could we get

47:01

into a bread dough for a

47:04

pan loaf where it would

47:06

still have that corny sort of

47:08

fragrance, that beautiful color, but

47:10

it would still bake and slice

47:12

a beautiful sandwich loaf. When you

47:14

toast slice of that, it gets this

47:16

very thin sort of crisp crust. And

47:18

it really highlights the aroma of toasted

47:21

corn. And I love that bread so

47:23

much. And it's got some honey

47:25

in the dough, too. Best corn flavor

47:27

of any bread I've ever had.

47:29

That's amazing. I've eaten a lot of

47:31

bread with corn in it. And

47:33

that one, I mean, to me, it's

47:35

like I'm in, you know, East LA

47:37

and we're like tamale hopping, you know, we're

47:39

like going from place to place, eating

47:41

tamales. And it's like that one with the

47:43

corn and honey in it. To me,

47:46

it's like those elements, but in a pan

47:48

loaf form, it's really not to be

47:50

missed. That's cool. So we've mentioned

47:52

a few pan loaves. And

47:55

I, you know, it's funny because I

47:57

think when people talk about, oh, hey,

47:59

I started baking. bread at home, like a

48:01

lot of people are talking about

48:04

sourdough and how psyched

48:06

people have been to, you

48:08

know, get, you know, in

48:11

their sourdough lifestyle, it's kind

48:13

of like sad because you're

48:15

basically creating like a pet, you

48:17

now have to like feed

48:20

and nurture with the sourdough

48:22

store, you're constantly having to

48:24

feed it. But I never

48:26

thought about this, but... making bread

48:28

in a pan is actually probably a

48:31

lot easier for beginners than a

48:33

sourdough that you have to you know form

48:35

the loaf or there's just a lot less you

48:37

have to do you kind of like can

48:39

just drop it in the pan and then put

48:42

it in the oven eventually I mean

48:44

even a sourdough baked in a

48:46

pan is easier because the pan

48:48

is like providing structure yeah sure right

48:50

right so thinking of like you know

48:52

there's like a hundred 125 I think

48:54

recipes in the book. What are some

48:56

recipes that you really recommend for folks

48:58

who are more in the beginner side

49:00

of their bread learning? You know we spend

49:02

a lot of time thinking about how

49:05

to put together a bread book that

49:07

would feel like a really comprehensive resource

49:09

for for bakers like no matter where

49:11

they were coming from. Like there are

49:13

lots of sourdough exclusive bread books out

49:15

there. And you know right from the

49:17

very start we were like we don't

49:20

want to do an only sourdow bread

49:22

because there's lots of There are

49:24

lots of beautiful breads out there

49:26

and sourdough bread, I think, while

49:29

like very trendy and very delicious,

49:31

is like not the only delicious

49:33

bread out there. And there's no

49:36

like, it's not like a morally

49:38

superior type of bread, right? Like

49:40

I think people are like, I make

49:42

sourdough, like I don't make a yeast

49:45

loaf, which is ridiculous. I

49:47

mean, they're both yeast, right? Like, so

49:49

I think, you know, you want to

49:51

find recipes, a very robust

49:53

section about like techniques and

49:56

those techniques basically get

49:58

applied throughout the book so I feel

50:00

like you can practice these techniques on simpler

50:02

breads, but then as you start to make

50:04

quote unquote more complex breads, you're like, oh

50:06

hey, I know how to do that. And

50:08

you can continue to sort of like deepen

50:10

and evolve your skills as you work your

50:12

way, you know, through baking projects, through the

50:14

book. Love that. Let me ask you one

50:16

last question. What are your tips for bread

50:18

storage? Does it depend on the loaf? Do

50:20

you just like, oh, this one can really

50:22

last two weeks? And I guess what I'm

50:24

really driving at is? At what point do

50:26

you put a bread in the refrigerator? Oh,

50:28

Francis, stop it. Everybody knows that the best

50:30

place to store bread is in your belly,

50:32

Francis. Yeah, so there are a lot of

50:34

considerations. Some of them relate to, you know,

50:36

what is the bread type? Is it something

50:39

that's enriched, like a holler or something like

50:41

that, is a long skinny baget that's got

50:43

a lot of sort of exposure to air

50:45

and it's going to stale pretty quickly? on

50:47

your counter as long as it had a

50:49

little bit of plastic around it. I'm not

50:51

exaggerating. Or even like the, some of the

50:53

breads with fruits and things like that in

50:55

them. So when you put it in the

50:57

fridge, the truth from me is never. It

50:59

either stays on the counter and if it's,

51:01

you know, a dry season, make sure that

51:03

you loosely wrap it in something like a

51:05

plastic bag or some other thing that's moisture

51:07

proof. Or you put it into the freezer

51:09

freezer. And the reason for that is that

51:11

in the fridge, it actually stails more quickly

51:13

than it will in the counter. You know,

51:15

we have this thing called starch retro gradation,

51:17

where the starch is will sort of, the

51:19

bread crumb will actually stale more quickly at

51:21

those temps. So, you know, slice it up,

51:23

throw it in your freezer, pull out a

51:25

slice as you need it, and pop it

51:28

in the toaster, and you're good to go.

51:30

or put it on your bench and open

51:32

to the part of the book that Jessica

51:34

wrote and Melanie too called, you know, things

51:36

to do with bread. It's basically like, okay,

51:38

I've got some remnants, what do I do?

51:40

Okay, here's a bread pudding. Here's a salad,

51:42

here. is, you know, here are 100 other

51:44

things that you can do, so. That was

51:46

a fun section to write. I mean, and

51:48

it spoke to a real hazard of writing

51:50

this book, like we had a lot of

51:52

bread kicking around. And, you know, and I

51:54

think if you're a bread baker, you know,

51:56

you get enthusiastic, right? And you're like, oh,

51:58

you get enthusiastic, right? And you're like, oh,

52:00

you get enthusiastic, right? And you know, and

52:02

I think if you're a bread baker, you

52:04

know, you know, you get enthusiastic, you know,

52:06

you get enthusiastic, you know, you get enthusiastic,

52:08

you know, you get enthusiastic, you know, you

52:10

get enthusiastic, you know, you get enthusiastic, you

52:12

get enthusiastic, you know, you get enthusiastic, you

52:14

know, you know, you get enthusiastic, you know,

52:17

you get enthusiastic, you get enthusiastic, you know,

52:19

you get enthusiastic, you know, you get enthusiastic,

52:21

you know, you get enthusiastic, you get enthusiastic,

52:23

you get enthusiastic, you know, you You know,

52:25

you start slicing not from the end, but

52:27

from the middle, right? So you take, you

52:29

cut the bread in half and you take

52:31

your first slice out of the middle and

52:33

then you push those two ends together. So

52:35

the cut sides are now touching one another.

52:37

That crust forms like a nice barrier to

52:39

prevent the bread from drying out. And I

52:41

think that will slow the stailing process too.

52:43

And that's what you want to do when

52:45

you bake a loaf of bread anyway. You

52:47

want to cut it in half and just

52:49

like just like just to see, like, like,

52:51

like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

52:53

like, like, just to see, like, like, like,

52:55

like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

52:57

like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

52:59

like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

53:01

like, like, like, like, like, Well, thank you

53:03

guys so much for the time today. This

53:06

is a lot of fun for me. Oh,

53:08

such a treat. I hope we get to

53:10

break bread together real soon, Francis. I love

53:12

that. Yeah, I appreciate this time. Jessica Battellana

53:14

is staff editor of the King Arthur Bacon

53:16

Company, and Martin Philip is their head bread

53:18

baker. Together with Melanie Wanders, they are the

53:20

authors of the big book of bread. And

53:22

they left us with a recipe for that

53:24

masa honey toasting bread we talked about. Find

53:26

at Splender table.org. And while you're there, you

53:28

can win a copy of some amazing new

53:30

cookbooks this month just by signing up for

53:32

a free newsletter, Week Night Kitchen. Every Wednesday,

53:34

you'll get a recipe sent straight to your

53:36

email from some of the best people working

53:38

in food today. Go to splendtable.org/giveaway. Have a

53:40

great week. We'll talk to you soon. APM

53:46

Studios are run by Chandra Kavati

53:48

and Joanne Griffith. This one of

53:50

the table was created by Sally

53:52

Swift and Elizabeth Casper, and it's

53:54

made each week. Protectment producer Jennifer

53:56

Lookey, producer Erica Romero, digital producer

53:59

James Napoli, and that. as producer

54:01

Sally Swift. I'm Francis Lamb and

54:03

this is Abraham Studios. A show

54:05

is supported by Emirates. We know

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54:09

vacation to Europe, Get

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the angeles special at McDonald's now.

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Let's break it down. My favorite

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barbecue sauce. American cheese, crispy bacon,

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pickles, onions, and a sesame seed bun, of

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course. And don't forget the fries in a

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