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your perfect date. I'd

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25th. Because it's not too

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hot, not too cold. All

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you need is a light jacket. Live

1:32

from the basement of the

1:34

YouTube headquarters, it's The

1:37

Stacking Benjamin Show. I'm

1:48

Joe's mom's neighbor Doug, and this

1:50

week we've been helping you improve

1:52

your career trajectory. And today, well,

1:54

we'll polish it off with three

1:56

people who've successfully navigated careers of

1:58

their own. We'll talk missteps, unforced

2:01

errors, and strategic genius in

2:03

the office. But that's not all.

2:05

We'll pause briefly halfway through

2:07

for today's edition of our year

2:09

-long trivia challenge. And now, a

2:11

guy who might have just

2:13

hit the pause button on an

2:15

Xbox just to come join

2:17

us, it's Joe Saul

2:19

C .I.! Oh,

2:23

no, no, no, no, no, no. Not in

2:25

the middle of a workday, although... I haven't

2:27

played in this cool new game, Doug, called

2:29

South of Midnight. I don't know if

2:31

you've seen that game yet. not, but

2:33

I'm sure you'll suck me into that.

2:35

Some fantastic goodness. Hey, everybody, welcome to

2:37

the Work Hard Play Hard podcast. I

2:39

am Joe Saul Seehi, and we've got

2:41

a fantastic way to end career branding

2:43

week. We're going to

2:45

share some salaciousness, some

2:47

amazing things people have done to blow

2:50

up their career that you may be able

2:52

to learn from, and then sometimes when

2:54

people might have made their career. We've got

2:56

the perfect people for that. We'll introduce

2:58

our guest of honor last, but let's start

3:00

off with a guy across the card

3:02

table from me, who's had a whole career

3:04

in financial planning. Mr. OG's here. How

3:06

are you, man? It's like I've had

3:08

two careers in financial planning. It's been so long. What

3:11

you and I way back in the

3:13

day in our American Express days, we saw

3:15

some stuff. We saw some

3:17

people blow up some careers pretty, pretty

3:19

well. You know, I don't have any,

3:21

um, I don't have any memories of

3:23

any of that stuff, honestly. You blocked

3:25

it all out. Yeah. I mean, totally

3:28

have. And when I was thinking about

3:30

this, I was thinking more kind of

3:32

broad brushstroke of like ways to do

3:34

it, not any particular stories. So I'll

3:36

be interested to hear. you tell

3:38

me the things that I should have

3:40

remembered from the 90s because it was it

3:42

was a while ago. So I just

3:44

I flush all that stuff. You know that

3:47

it's like I got to remember what

3:49

I had for breakfast, let alone what happened

3:51

to office mate 27 years

3:53

ago. It is interesting though, OG,

3:55

because like you read about

3:57

financial planning, I remember a great

3:59

piece. I think it was in

4:01

the Wall Street Journal way back

4:04

when during that time. And they

4:06

were talking about Bill Clinton and

4:08

the whole Monica Lewinsky thing from

4:10

a financial planning perspective, which was

4:12

interesting because at the time they

4:14

said that, you know, presidents make

4:16

a ton of money writing their

4:18

memoirs and you have all of

4:21

these income seeking opportunities. Would

4:23

Bill Clinton, from a modeling standpoint,

4:25

as a financial planner, could you model

4:27

him making any money after his

4:29

presidency? Which of course he did. Turns

4:31

out he did. OK. It turns

4:33

out he did. All right. Spoiler. Spoiler.

4:36

Spoiler alert. Too

4:38

soon to talk about this. He is

4:40

a go zillionaire and he don't have to

4:42

worry about money no more. Yeah. But

4:44

just imagine the financial planning nightmares that happen

4:46

from blowing up your career. Yeah. Speaking

4:48

about a guy whose career is blowing

4:50

up as we speak, but in a good

4:52

way. Mr. Jesse Kramer's here. How are you, man? Hey,

4:56

guys, I'm doing well. If it seems

4:58

like I'm talking kind of slowly, it's

5:00

because I'm lagging behind by 10 or

5:02

15 or 20 seconds at a time. Other than that,

5:04

other than the time warp between us, I'm doing

5:06

quite well. Yeah, you're not doing the

5:08

time warp the fun way like it's midnight at your

5:10

local movie theater with the Rocky Horror Picture Show. Correct.

5:13

I'm not doing it that way. I'm doing it the

5:15

unfun way. It's just me in my office alone. Wouldn't

5:18

it be wild if on these Stacking Vegments

5:20

episodes, like people threw rice and toast

5:22

and what if they throw like toilet paper?

5:25

Like we could have our whole own

5:27

thing. I don't know. Well, we'll save

5:29

that for the next 1600 episodes maybe.

5:31

Just throw money at us. And a

5:33

woman who makes the show every time

5:35

she's here, the woman behind the

5:37

Elevate conference, also the woman who

5:39

was the creator of Yes, I Am

5:41

Cheap, the woman who, speaking of

5:43

cheap, Came on this show

5:45

and talked about doing her wedding for, I

5:47

don't even remember the number, Sandy. $5 ,000

5:49

in New York. Yeah, $5

5:52

,000 in New York. Sandy Smith is

5:54

finally back. How are you? Good.

5:56

Nice to see you've grown a couple more

5:58

hairs. Well, I think

6:00

I've lost some. I don't know. I

6:03

like that little dusting going on on top there. Thanks.

6:05

It adds a little je ne sais quoi.

6:08

It always takes Sandy like 47

6:10

seconds to start making fun of

6:12

me. I'm losing my edge. 47 seconds.

6:14

What's going on? So

6:17

Sandy lately. And I

6:19

wrote you because I thought of you

6:21

immediately with this topic. Sandy's seen a

6:23

person or two blow up their career

6:25

in her lifetime working in HR. Once

6:27

or twice. Yeah. I'm super happy

6:29

that you can be here with us. You've

6:31

got a conference coming in July. Tell us

6:33

about what's on tap for July in Sandy

6:35

Smith. Yeah. The Elevate

6:37

conferences are usually a series of workshops

6:40

once a year. most years

6:42

that focuses on the intersection

6:44

of money and some other topic.

6:46

So in the past, it's been about Black Wall Street. This

6:49

year, it is elevate the

6:51

92 % focusing on the 92 %

6:53

of Black women who voted

6:55

for Kamala Harris and how we

6:58

can improve their financial

7:00

lives specifically because there is

7:02

a common thread there about

7:04

how Black women vote in

7:07

mass, which is. Not the

7:09

same as the rest of the United States.

7:11

So I want to explore that a little

7:13

bit more with an eye towards finance, always

7:15

towards personal finance. Awesome. And that's

7:17

it. Well, everything you do, I think always

7:19

has that edge. There's a financial literacy

7:21

edge. Where can people get more? Elevate

7:24

the 92%. It's elevate

7:26

the 92 % spelled out. Awesome.

7:28

We'll link to it in the show

7:30

notes at stackybedgements.com. Today, we're

7:32

going to tell some stories that

7:34

hopefully will elevate all our stackers

7:36

to maybe Not do maybe maybe

7:38

not do some of the things that you're

7:40

going to hear about in the next 30

7:42

minutes. So sit back. We've got a couple

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of sponsors that make sure this is free

7:47

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7:49

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7:53

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in all states. All

9:33

right, the scene is set. I'm

9:36

just going to go right to the professor here,

9:38

Sandy Smith. Sandy, what

9:41

is a no -no that people, maybe

9:44

a story that somebody may be able to

9:46

learn from that you probably shouldn't do if you

9:48

want to have a successful career brand? I've

9:51

been in HR for over

9:53

a decade secretly. I've had like dual

9:55

careers going on at the same time. And

9:58

so lately, since many non

10:00

-DAs have expired, I have

10:02

been sharing some stories and

10:04

that's what that's what Joe has

10:06

seen for my years in

10:08

HR and people definitely blowing up

10:10

their careers and crazy stuff. So

10:12

probably one that I'm going to

10:15

mention now is one that I

10:17

shared and it's about relationships at

10:19

work. Looking at you, Doug. I

10:22

mean, Doug, it was this tool.

10:24

Come on. You know, you're spending a lot of time at

10:26

work. And, you know, it is

10:28

natural that you're going to maybe have a connection

10:30

with somebody at work. It happens. And

10:32

as a HR professional, we know

10:34

that it happens. That's just normal,

10:37

part of the course. However, if

10:39

you sit on high and you have a

10:41

relationship with someone on low, you

10:43

should not be using your influence

10:45

at that job for that person.

10:47

So the story that I shared

10:49

recently was somebody in the C

10:51

-suite who formed a relationship

10:53

with somebody who was very, very, very junior

10:55

in a different department. That

10:58

was enough to have the red flags

11:00

going off already. Was it public

11:02

or was it just everybody knew but

11:04

nobody talked about it? Exactly. Everybody

11:06

kind of knew but didn't talk about it.

11:08

See, no evil here, no evil whispers are going on.

11:10

If I don't know it exists, I don't

11:12

know it exists. However, it

11:15

couldn't be ignored when somebody

11:17

in the department for

11:19

the junior person resigned And

11:21

in their exit interview,

11:23

they mentioned this relationship causing

11:26

a toxic environment in

11:28

their department. Really? Then

11:30

employment law kind of had to get

11:32

involved. Because when we dug in, that

11:35

C -suite person was

11:38

putting undue stress onto that

11:40

person who they were dating's direct

11:42

manager. So if that manager

11:44

asked that person to do something and they didn't

11:46

like it, They would complain to their

11:48

C -suite boyfriend who then approached the manager,

11:51

right? And so the manager felt

11:53

that they could not manage this person

11:55

anymore. And because they could not manage

11:57

this person anymore, it impacted the department,

11:59

the entire department. So if

12:01

you're going to have a relationship with somebody

12:03

at work, it'll happen. Do

12:05

not be the person in the relationship that

12:07

is in a very senior position. Number one, pretend

12:10

it doesn't exist at work.

12:12

You guys separate church and state.

12:14

do not ever have an

12:16

impact any work that you're doing

12:18

and most definitely do not

12:20

have a direct reporting relationship at

12:22

work. This is a C -suite

12:24

person with a base mid

12:26

half million dollar base salary plus

12:28

stock equity options. Former C -suite

12:30

person. That's exactly what happened. He

12:34

was gone. Okay.

12:37

And because of why he was gone,

12:39

we could not even give him the

12:41

severance that was normally in his golden

12:43

parachute. Could even get the severance. Not

12:45

the full severance to where T was

12:47

entitled in his golden parachute. Okay. And

12:49

you know, finding a C -suite level

12:51

job takes some time and people going

12:53

to want to know what happened at

12:56

the last place. Wherever you are,

12:58

the industry is smaller than you think.

13:00

The city is smaller than you think.

13:02

People talk, people know each other. And

13:04

whether you like it or not, whether

13:06

you think it or not, it will

13:08

get around. So, yeah. Relationships

13:11

that work just in general. I would

13:13

never, never. But

13:16

then I have seen it successful. I've had two

13:18

colleagues who got married, but they were

13:20

in two separate departments. They were on the same level.

13:22

They never, even when they were dating, it was

13:24

not, you know, in the office, it wasn't in

13:27

your face. They would, you know, go out after

13:29

work. They wouldn't occasionally they would have lunch together

13:31

outside of the office. And it

13:33

was fine. No issues. They did not

13:35

interfere with anything within. They

13:37

kept it very, very quiet. But then there were

13:39

Japanese, so that was a different culture anyway. So

13:42

it can work. It can be successful,

13:44

but not in this case. And not if

13:46

you're a senior person and you're using

13:48

your influence on that person's manager. Have

13:50

you, Jesse, have you seen relationships

13:52

at work, either work or not work?

13:56

Um good question. Yeah, he's like no

13:58

comment I'm going back to my

14:00

old I mean right now I work

14:02

in a relatively small office of

14:04

40 But I'm going back to my

14:06

old job where I was in

14:09

a engineering office of like a thousand

14:11

and yeah There are some relationships

14:13

there that definitely worked including some that

14:15

were pre -existing before I started working

14:17

there and people who've been married

14:19

for decades plus at the time. So

14:21

it definitely can work. But at

14:23

the same time, I think there's always

14:26

that, I mean, power dynamics in

14:28

general. And I think that's what Sandy

14:30

was getting at is like, whenever

14:32

there's a power dynamic, sometimes it's just,

14:34

it's the perception of one. Sometimes

14:36

it can be like, well, technically no

14:38

one is anyone else's superior, but

14:41

this person has been there a lot longer

14:43

and it seems like they have more responsibility

14:45

and they have the ability to do favors

14:47

for someone else. And even that alone is

14:49

where you kind of get into some gray

14:51

area. Yeah, OG, how about you? Have you

14:53

seen relationships at work? Well,

14:55

we've always been a small firm, so

14:57

none that I can think of. But

14:59

I can also see this, not even

15:01

just in a relationship in this context,

15:03

but also like your kid comes to

15:05

work for you. And just

15:07

being aware of how that looks. I

15:10

mean, if you work at a big company

15:12

that's hard to get into, and your

15:14

kid gets a job, even if they didn't

15:16

connect the dots, right? It's like, it's still

15:18

going to be like, well, yeah, your dad's

15:20

the senior VP. It's like, no, I went

15:22

to this great school. I tried really

15:24

hard. I it's like, yeah, okay. Yep. Okay.

15:27

But also your dad's the VP, you

15:29

know, or whatever. And it's like, even

15:31

just that appearance of that, I think you

15:33

have to really do a, you have

15:35

to work really hard to guard against any

15:37

sort of even appearance of impropriety at

15:39

any level, whether it's a sexual relationship, or

15:42

if it's just a parent child relationship,

15:44

or or any sort of nepotism type thing.

15:46

So be aware of it anyway. Yeah,

15:48

I saw a small business, a financial planning

15:50

business where a dad brought in his

15:52

daughter and he had before that a whole

15:54

succession plan before he found out his

15:57

daughter wanted a piece of the company. And

15:59

when that happened, it just wrecked morale

16:01

in the entire company. Yeah. I mean,

16:03

I can see that in our business. Both of my

16:05

boys have said something about it, you know, just kind of

16:07

casually like, well, maybe I'll just go work for you

16:09

one day. You know, while that would be super

16:11

cool, there's more to it than

16:13

just Show up to work and

16:15

you know, let's hang out and have

16:18

fun I've worked with my brother before

16:20

and that was a different dynamic and

16:22

we're really close and it was it

16:24

was very weird to kind of go

16:26

okay at lunch we can be bros

16:28

but you know from 9 to 11

16:31

30 and from 12 30 to 5

16:33

you have to be the associate and

16:35

It's just It's just hard. It's

16:37

just a difficult position. that's why I would never

16:39

hire family or have them in the same company

16:41

that I was in. Yeah, it's hard. I was

16:43

interviewing at a company for another HR position. And

16:45

I didn't realize that one of my cousins worked

16:47

there. You know, you do research on

16:49

the company when you're interviewing. And there he

16:51

was on the website. And I was like, oh, can't

16:54

do it. And you're gone. Yeah.

16:56

And so I withdrew from consideration. They

16:58

were like, why? And I said, I have

17:00

a family member who works there. Now,

17:02

had I talked to my cousin in a

17:04

while, Absolutely not. I probably hadn't talked

17:06

to him like five or six years. But

17:08

the fact that even that we had

17:10

this family relationship, I don't want his mom

17:12

calling me up. You know what I

17:15

mean? Why did you lay off my kid?

17:17

Exactly, because that happens. I had to

17:19

lay friends off. People who I consider friends.

17:21

Can you imagine if it was a

17:23

family member? Yeah. Well, just think about the

17:25

pressure of the girlfriend's boss. The girlfriend's

17:27

boss felt that After hours going out to

17:29

dinner with boyfriend who's the CEO and

17:31

next thing you know, it shows up in

17:34

your performance eval You're like, oh, how

17:36

did this how did this stuff happen? I

17:38

remember a relationship when I was with

17:40

American Express the manager of an office and

17:42

His office man. So this guy this

17:44

guy was in charge of the office. He

17:46

was the district manager But the woman

17:48

that was in charge of like the support

17:50

staff his office manager, they were having

17:53

a relationship and here's a lesson which

17:55

is the woman in charge of the

17:57

support staff sent out an email to

17:59

the district manager that said, hey, where

18:01

do you want to go to dinner

18:03

tonight? These two worked together

18:06

nonstop. Nobody knew that anything was going

18:08

on. In fact, if she had left that

18:10

email alone, there would have been no

18:12

big deal. Like I think 99 .9 % of

18:14

us thought, oh yeah, the two of

18:16

them are just going out to dinner to

18:18

talk about work stuff. That's fine. But

18:21

then Sandy, she decided to withdraw

18:23

the email. she tried to

18:25

withdraw it. And it was the nature

18:27

of withdrawing that email that all of a

18:29

sudden the entire office goes, oh, what

18:31

the hell's in that email? And then I

18:33

wasn't even paying attention until I saw

18:35

the withdrawal request. And then I said, what's

18:38

she's trying to withdraw? And I

18:40

saw she was trying to withdraw dinner with

18:42

the manager. And I went, oh, this

18:44

is a whole different thing than we thought.

18:47

The good news is now they've been married

18:49

for a long time. It worked out. And frankly,

18:51

the office still ran. the way that it

18:53

ran before. But what happens when it doesn't work

18:55

out? And when it doesn't work out, right?

18:57

That's the other thing. And it

18:59

can be very awkward. the risk

19:01

there is huge. Joe, did you

19:03

make any judgments about them based on the restaurant that

19:05

they were going to that night? Or did that

19:07

not cross your mind? Applebee's

19:10

dude, Applebee's really. That's all

19:12

you could do with Applebee's. It's

19:14

the neighborhood place, Doug. Come

19:16

on. Sizzler. Yeah, no, I did

19:18

not. But you know, it's funny, Jesse,

19:21

to that point in Sandy to

19:23

your point, too, I did begin judging

19:25

them when they were having this

19:27

relationship, because I was like, what are

19:29

they talking about? How is this

19:31

affecting everybody? How is this affecting us?

19:34

Because they have this extracurricular activity

19:36

going on. Jesse, what's another spot where

19:38

somebody might have stepped into the

19:40

danger zone? The

19:42

one that I think of from

19:44

some experience is chronic negativity,

19:47

chronic cynicism, which maybe in

19:49

and of itself is just a reason

19:51

for someone to know a way that

19:53

someone can sabotage their own career. But

19:55

even there are some cases where I

19:57

guess what I'm saying is like, if

19:59

we can picture someone who's always negative,

20:01

like, yeah, they're probably self -sabotaging. But

20:03

there are some cases where someone They

20:05

think they're being helpful, like they think

20:07

they're being the helpful critic, but they

20:09

don't realize how negative or how constant

20:12

they're coming off with their criticisms. And

20:14

that ends up shooting themselves in the foot

20:16

because someone else or someone above them in

20:18

the food chain just kind of gets sick

20:20

and tired of this constant stream of criticism.

20:23

You just have to be careful with it

20:25

is all I'm saying. Everyone knows that

20:27

a good employee hopefully is trying to improve

20:29

the company and make things better, improve

20:31

the systems, and that can include some constructive

20:33

criticism. But there's a line

20:35

that we all need to be

20:38

careful about crossing. I had a

20:40

family member from what I heard.

20:42

This family member was recently let

20:44

go for questioning the finances of

20:46

her boss. And this

20:48

person has a history of being outspoken and

20:50

sometimes in a very negative way. And the more

20:52

comfortable she gets with you, the more negative

20:54

she'll become and kind of pick on your life.

20:56

And when you pick on your boss's life,

20:58

no matter what you think. just

21:01

maybe a bridge too far. Yeah,

21:03

praise in public, chastise in private, right?

21:05

Well, in this OG, I think

21:07

is a lesson that for me, I

21:10

had a mentor talk to me about this, and I

21:12

actually had to talk to a direct report of mine

21:14

about this. And this mentor

21:16

of mine said, beware clusters of

21:18

misery. And this is groups of

21:20

people at work that get together and like

21:22

to bitch about the company culture. And every

21:25

big company has this cluster of people. this

21:27

particular woman that worked for me would go

21:29

on smoke breaks, which I was fine with.

21:31

But the people that she would hang out

21:33

with at the smoke breaks, she'd always come

21:35

back negative. She always knew about all the

21:37

company gossip that had nothing to do with

21:40

us helping our clients make any money. And

21:42

I just had to caution her, I'm like,

21:44

beware of those people. Like, I don't care

21:46

about whatever you do. I'm

21:48

just giving you a little bit of career

21:50

advice. I would not spend that time

21:52

with those people. Because those people every time

21:54

make you negative and Cross and then

21:56

it takes you forever to refocus saying to

21:59

your nod in your head. You must

22:01

see these clusters of misery everywhere Oh, yeah,

22:03

because that perception will wash over whoever's

22:05

in that vicinity if you know and I'll

22:07

say that typically your HR team knows

22:09

who the squeaky wheels and who the really

22:11

negative people are they know and if

22:14

they see that there's more an or other

22:16

people hanging with the same group of

22:18

negative people, they're going to assume that that's

22:20

also your thought process as well. And

22:22

whether it's valid or not, there's like a

22:24

strike in the back of their heads.

22:26

And is it the right thing? No, we're

22:28

all human. We all have our biases.

22:31

But that will creep in whether you know

22:33

it or not, or whether they know

22:35

it or not. There's unconscious bias. And

22:37

it might impact you in a negative

22:39

way, just because you're hanging with people

22:41

who other people perceive to be. like

22:43

that. Yeah, we talked about this on

22:45

Wednesday show that people can't, you know,

22:47

sometimes we call it shallow, but you

22:49

just can't help it. I see you

22:51

with a person who's the constant complainer.

22:53

I immediately think that maybe you're a

22:55

complainer too, or maybe you believe what

22:57

that person believes. Exactly. It's a contagion.

22:59

Now, are you spreading throughout the office?

23:02

Typically, you want that contained. And

23:04

those are the people when there is a

23:06

reduction in force, magically. Weird.

23:09

They're on that list. Weird how that

23:11

happens. Oh, gee, what's one you've got?

23:13

So again, I was thinking more of

23:15

a big broad brushstroke of this. And

23:17

I was thinking about the idea of

23:19

chasing whatever seems to be hot, you

23:22

know, at the moment. And I'm thinking

23:24

about this in the context of a

23:26

personal, you know, the personal brand component.

23:28

One minute, you're, you know, a finance

23:30

guy. The next minute you're

23:32

talking about hustle culture. The

23:35

next minute, you know, you're all about

23:37

like calmness and serenity and mindfulness. It's

23:39

like, what are you trying to be?

23:41

an expert in or what what are

23:43

you trying to be, you know, focused

23:45

in or focused around like what's your

23:47

message if you're going to be this

23:49

like you were talking about before if

23:51

you don't have a personal brand you

23:53

have one you just don't it just

23:55

sucks. Are you the hustle guy or

23:57

gal are you the finance bro like

23:59

what what is your thing and if

24:01

you keep on moving all the time

24:03

if you keep on bouncing around between

24:05

whatever happens to be top of your

24:07

social channel today then nobody knows what

24:10

to. Nobody has any trust like what

24:12

are you trying to do? What are you trying to say? What's

24:14

your message? What are you? It's okay

24:16

to kind of go with different trends, but

24:18

but you still have to be who you are

24:20

I had a guy early in my career

24:22

at American Express who did that. He was always

24:24

the different guy every week. And you could

24:26

tell he was trying to find his way. He

24:28

was just doing it very publicly. Like

24:30

very today I'm this and he was 100

24:33

% this person. And then two weeks later

24:35

is 100 % that person is funny because he

24:37

isn't changes. I mean, I don't know him

24:39

that well, but we're friends on LinkedIn and

24:41

Facebook and social media. And still when I

24:43

see this guy, I still think of him

24:45

as the guy who is changing everything. third

24:47

week. And I haven't known him for 20

24:49

years. And I still think of him that

24:52

way. Yeah, very difficult.

24:54

Doug, you spend a lot of time

24:56

in corporate America. What's a public career

24:58

blow up somebody nuke their own career

25:00

that you've seen? Well, I

25:02

have a funny story that was

25:04

a blow up. But I also have

25:06

some my own personal advice of

25:08

things that or a thing that definitely

25:10

derailed me for a little while,

25:12

not totally, but a little while. But

25:15

the funny story is, be careful

25:17

of your humor, because your

25:19

humor is not everybody else's humor.

25:21

And it was a guy that was

25:23

a peer of mine who was

25:25

leading a portion of the technology team,

25:27

was having a meeting with a

25:29

vendor, and in walks, somebody who reported

25:32

to him happened to be a woman who

25:34

was very small physically. I mean, she might,

25:36

I don't think she was five feet tall,

25:38

and she was just a small person. And

25:40

for some unknown reason, this guy

25:42

decides to say, in front of the vendor who

25:44

was sitting in his office, I've crapped

25:46

bigger than you. Oh my god. No.

25:49

Oh my god. Yes.

25:52

Could not believe it. I love how the

25:55

woman from HR Sandy responded to that. Yeah. No.

25:59

Sandy wants a meeting with him right now. Immediately.

26:03

Well, it's not like we didn't respond, Joe. Do

26:05

not ask, go do not click $200. It's

26:07

not even in Sandy's company. She wants

26:09

to meet with him. That's a classic story.

26:11

We got HR managers from seven different

26:13

companies that want to meet with you now.

26:15

And he never really talked about hunting,

26:17

you know, here in Michigan, lots of people

26:19

hunt, but, um, oddly he was gone

26:21

for a whole week during hunting season for

26:23

the next couple of years. And it

26:25

was because he got sent off to sensitivity

26:27

training. for as long as he

26:29

was with the company. And they just scheduled

26:32

it hunting season just to give him cover. So

26:34

be careful of when you think you're being

26:36

funny. You might not be. I find that out

26:38

every week on this show. I get told

26:41

and taken to our HR department in the corner

26:43

the basement every week. But

26:45

the other thing that I was going to talk

26:47

about in both you and OG just kind of

26:49

touched on it was Think about

26:51

the kind of manager you want

26:53

to be known as if you get

26:55

promoted into a management level position.

26:57

It's very easy, especially in your first

26:59

one or two management roles. It's

27:01

very easy to get drawn into being

27:04

the people manager rather than the

27:06

mission manager. What I mean by that

27:08

is you feel like in order

27:10

to get your team behind you, you

27:12

have to create these personal relationships

27:14

with people and try to solve their

27:16

problems for them. And that's

27:19

what, to OG's point a second ago, that's

27:21

what you're going to get known as. So then

27:23

when it comes time to really buckle down

27:25

and say, this is the mission of this, of

27:27

this team, this is what we have to

27:29

accomplish, you may not get the reaction you want

27:31

because of the type of relationship you've developed

27:33

for the preceding whatever, six months, a year, two

27:35

years. are saying she or he is soft.

27:37

I don't really need to do this. Well, or

27:39

they know I've got a different, maybe it's

27:41

not that they're soft, but that I've got this,

27:43

I'm a little tighter with that person. I

27:46

can kind of, I don't have to react the

27:48

same way. When they say jump, I don't

27:50

have to say how high. And I found that

27:52

out because I had a career path plan,

27:54

deliberate plan from shortly after college that I would

27:56

rather have been a bigger fish in a

27:58

smaller pond. So I deliberately worked for small to

28:00

mid -sized companies on purpose knowing that that way

28:02

I would get really broad experience so that

28:04

when I got a little bit older and I

28:06

wanted to move to larger global companies, that

28:09

I would have this great breadth of experience.

28:11

That part all worked great, but the downside was

28:13

in the smaller company, you get promoted early.

28:15

If you're any good, you get promoted earlier. I

28:17

got promoted into a leadership positions I was

28:19

not ready for. I was too

28:21

young and I didn't have the

28:23

experience to be leading 112 people in

28:26

my mid 20s. And so I

28:28

kind of leaned on the personal side

28:30

of management and it really made

28:32

things difficult. You see that

28:34

with young managers a lot, Sandy? Yes,

28:36

especially now because the current generation Sometimes

28:39

I feel like it's us against

28:41

the company kind of a thing. And

28:44

they relate very, very closely to

28:46

the folks who work for them. It

28:48

is a cultural shift. And I

28:50

actually don't think it's a negative thing

28:52

per se, because they do relate

28:54

to each other in a different way

28:56

than, say, my generation, Gen

28:59

X, would to somebody who's

29:01

my sister's generation, who's Gen

29:03

Z. But I think there is

29:05

a danger of being too familiar

29:07

because when it comes to really having

29:09

to have tough conversations, then it

29:11

becomes very difficult. Then it's like, dude,

29:13

you're my friend. We just had

29:15

beers last night kind of thing, right?

29:18

And they find it very difficult to draw

29:20

the line when it's been blurred the

29:22

entire time. The line hasn't existed. Can

29:25

we talk about beers last night

29:27

because that's the one that I wrote

29:29

down that we haven't gotten to.

29:31

I wanted to make sure that nobody

29:33

else brought this up. I will

29:35

tell you what I've seen in my

29:38

career has been Remember the company

29:40

holiday party. You're still with people from

29:42

the company. I have written about

29:44

this so many times. I have seen

29:46

Sandy so many careers destroyed at

29:48

the company holiday party. I stopped going

29:51

to company holiday parties about six

29:53

or seven years ago on purpose

29:55

because once I was HR. And

29:57

I had a responsibility. I

29:59

didn't want to be responsible here. No evil. See

30:01

no evil. I don't want to go. I

30:03

literally stopped going to a company holiday. Did you

30:05

see what Nancy was doing in the bar?

30:08

No, I didn't. Who was drunk? Who do I

30:10

have to call a car for? Who's hooking

30:12

up in this corner? Who's on that drug? Who's

30:14

on this? Man, those sound like awesome parties. Hold

30:17

on. I'm asking for a friend. But when

30:19

would be the next company party? I

30:21

had a colleague get proposition

30:23

to be part of a threesome

30:26

at the company party with one

30:28

of the VPs and their spouse.

30:30

Sounds about right. Go on. I

30:32

know a woman who is

30:34

showing off her new implants purchases.

30:36

That's very popular. I definitely had

30:38

that happen. I have seen.

30:41

I'll even tell you who this is because this

30:43

was a big, I don't even know this

30:45

person. I wasn't at the company party, but I

30:47

heard. Lester Holt the

30:49

CB or the NBC was

30:51

so drunk at the NBC holiday

30:53

party and he sang karaoke

30:55

that I heard about how horrible

30:57

it was. Like I don't

30:59

even I was even at that

31:01

party. And this has become

31:03

like a cultural thing where everybody

31:05

knows that Lester whole just

31:07

hold on. I was down for

31:09

all of these crazy stories

31:11

until you started saying karaoke is

31:13

not OK. Karaoke can be

31:15

OK. But apparently Lester made it

31:18

pretty, pretty bad. How key was he

31:20

was singing a Rod Stewart song

31:22

by the time wanted to be an

31:24

anchor right at NBC News. And

31:26

I have heard in publications that that

31:28

affected his ability to move on.

31:30

was people. I mean, he finally made

31:32

it. And I think we all

31:35

know him and how responsible he is.

31:37

I'm sexy. But

31:39

yeah, Lester and karaoke.

31:42

More people are going to hear about what happened

31:44

at the holiday party. Careful at the holiday

31:46

party. Even people who are not there will hear

31:49

about it because I always hear about stuff

31:51

at the holiday party. It's like, hey, wasn't there

31:53

unless somebody comes and complains about something at

31:55

the holiday party. I don't

31:57

know what happened. Didn't happen. Right. Well,

31:59

something that does happen every week on

32:02

this show is halfway through. We have

32:04

this year long trivia competition. So we're

32:06

going to pause for a second and

32:08

jump into this because Sandy, today you

32:10

are going to play for team Paula

32:12

Pant. We have three frequent contributors. Oh,

32:14

G's here every week. Jesse, we got

32:17

team Jesse and team Paula. So you're

32:19

representing team Paula. Do you want the

32:21

good news, Sandy or the bad news

32:23

about where you're standing so far in

32:25

2025? Okay. Throw me the bad news.

32:27

Let's go. I don't know if it's bad news or good

32:29

news. The bad news is Paula's in last place. That's

32:32

where Paula generally spends our trivia competition.

32:34

She's got two and a half points.

32:36

Now she did have only a point

32:38

and a half, but she won last

32:41

week. Okay. policy three and a half

32:43

points. Oh, G has five. So with

32:45

a win today, you could be in

32:47

second place, still in last, but in

32:49

second place. If

32:51

Jesse wins, he finally puts a

32:54

presser on OG. If OG

32:56

wins, Oh God, no, let's not

32:58

even consider that. So Those are

33:00

the stakes. Sandy, you're going to guess

33:02

last. That's the good news. Jesse,

33:04

you'll guess in the middle. OG will go

33:06

first. We need a trivia question, though, Doug.

33:08

What's on tap this beautiful Friday? Hey

33:14

there, stackers. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor,

33:16

Doug. And today we're helping you

33:18

zip up your career. Maybe, as

33:20

mom says, by remembering to zip

33:22

up that mouth at the holiday

33:24

party, especially. Yeah. The

33:26

zipper was an innovation in more

33:28

ways than one. Not only

33:30

does it help keep tents closed

33:33

and purses protected, it also

33:35

keeps your privates private. Except

33:37

when the worst happens, as we saw

33:39

in a film that earned tons of

33:41

Benjamins way back in 98, that gave

33:43

us the poetic line, we have a

33:45

bleeder. Here's today's

33:48

question. How often does

33:50

that something about Mary problem

33:52

actually happen? And for

33:54

those of you who haven't seen the

33:56

movie, Let me lay it out

33:58

there for you. How many Americans go

34:00

to the hospital in an average

34:02

year for zipper and related injuries? I'll

34:05

be back right after I figure out how

34:07

to say that question without crossing my legs. Yeah,

34:10

that hurts. Something

34:13

about Mary. Sandy, have you seen something

34:15

about Mary? This is a 90s

34:17

film, isn't it? At 1998. Yeah.

34:20

Going way back. I never watched it.

34:22

No, well, that's fine. But the

34:24

we have a bleeder line is exactly

34:26

what you think it was. Yep.

34:28

Jesse, have you seen this movie? Yeah.

34:31

Ben Stiller and Cameron Diaz. Am I thinking

34:33

of the right movie? Yeah. Cheryl and

34:35

I actually watched it in a hotel room and

34:37

then we were on the elevator to just

34:39

come out and it was new to the hotel,

34:41

you know, movie scene. Are you

34:43

really telling this story? We get in the elevator

34:45

and Cheryl takes her hand and goes like

34:47

this. And the people in the elevator go, you

34:49

just watch something about Mary because. Yeah,

34:52

hair gel. But anyway,

34:55

yes. I didn't watch it, but even I know

34:57

that scene. I think that

34:59

we have a bleeder scene is

35:01

a close second. So OG

35:03

and an average year, how

35:05

many people go to the hospital

35:07

due to zipper injuries? I

35:09

think that this has got to

35:11

be largely children. I have

35:13

distinct memories as a child of

35:15

having this happen. No less

35:18

than twice. The

35:20

old footy pajamas will get you

35:22

every time. That's a

35:24

big long zipper and you just

35:26

kind of you get the momentum

35:28

going from the ankle and you

35:30

just and it just you know

35:32

bang just just jumps up to

35:34

get you. It's like a rattlesnake. The

35:37

average number of Americans that

35:39

go to the hospital for

35:42

zipper related incidences is it's

35:44

going to be seventy four

35:46

thousand three hundred nineteen. 74

35:51

,319 people, on average.

35:53

On average. Per year. Yes.

35:56

Sandy, use your hand up to ask a question. That's

35:58

a lot of people who don't underwear. Doug's

36:04

not wearing underwear right now. It's a whole new world. Jesse.

36:06

You don't know. Jesse, what do you can do that? Don't

36:08

send me to HR because of it. I'm

36:11

going to go lower than

36:13

OG. My

36:15

first instinct was in the thousands.

36:19

I'm going to say

36:21

3 ,500 per year.

36:23

You're going way

36:26

lower. Way, way, way

36:28

lower. 75 ,000 is a lot. I

36:30

mean, that means over 10 years

36:32

it's happening to close to a million

36:34

people. Well, like Doug said, while

36:36

we were planning this segment, everybody's got a story.

36:39

Well, that's the thing. Everybody's got a story,

36:41

but this is a hospital visit. Yeah, that's

36:43

a serious story. Again, sorry, Sandy, if this

36:45

is too much. But this isn't like a

36:48

little pinch and go. All

36:50

right, time to get back to work now.

36:52

This is like, I have to

36:54

stop work, call the ambulance. Because

36:56

we have a bleeder. Correct. Yeah.

36:58

Correct. I have had to

37:00

extricate a cousin from one. Oh, my goodness.

37:02

I have a little bit of experience

37:05

with it. Did they go to the hospital

37:07

or not? There was a lot of

37:09

screaming, but no hospital. Case in

37:11

point. The good news is, is it Jesse thinks

37:13

a lot more people wear underwear. So

37:15

yes. What did I

37:17

say? What did I end up saying, Doug? 3 ,500. All

37:20

right. Good. All right, Sandy,

37:22

here's what you got. 74 ,319

37:24

from OG, 3 ,500 from Jesse. Jesse

37:27

stole my answer because I'm thinking like

37:29

10 people a day. Like who you've got

37:31

to really be, you know, you

37:36

get on that zipper

37:38

really quickly to warrant a

37:40

hospital visit. And having

37:42

had to unzip and I'm

37:54

a mom of one son and thank God

37:56

I haven't had to do this with him yet

37:58

because Yeah, I never wouldn't do that again.

38:00

One time was enough in my life. Is that

38:02

why you didn't take that job, Sandy? Was

38:04

it that cousin? You know. I

38:07

wouldn't take the job either. I know. I've

38:09

seen the bits. Like, I haven't talked to

38:11

him in six years. Why? Well, it involved

38:14

the zipper. We were younger. We were younger.

38:16

I was the older teenage cousin, and he

38:18

was a little younger. And I had to.

38:20

Oh, boy. was babysitting, so I had to

38:22

get him extricated. 74

38:24

,000 is way too many people. That's

38:26

a whole lot of momentum and a whole lot of need. Um,

38:29

and I just this

38:31

just became the best episode

38:34

ever. Have you guys

38:36

ever had to do this?

38:38

I told you twice. No.

38:41

Yeah. So I'm extricate somebody back to when I had

38:43

to help my cousin out to get this. It

38:45

can't be that many people because he didn't have to

38:47

go to the hospital. You just have to be

38:49

very careful and had to like, you know, he lost

38:51

a pair of pants. That's it. And

38:53

I was like in Jesse's area, like

38:56

10 people a day. So can we be

38:58

close? Can we go like

39:00

3 ,000 people? You can go

39:02

one over, one under. That is

39:04

a common tactic to go one

39:06

over or one under somebody. I'll

39:08

go a little under. Let's worry

39:10

about 3 ,500. Let's go 3 ,000

39:12

because there can't be that many

39:14

people with that much like trauma

39:16

or junk. Let's

39:22

let's lock those in. This might be

39:24

the weirdest trivia we've ever done. No. We're

39:26

gonna find I got butterflies in my

39:28

stomach right now. I'm so uncomfortable. We're gonna

39:30

find out who's right. We'll be right

39:32

back. Today's

39:34

show is sponsored by strawberry .me -stackers.

39:37

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40:22

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theaters. All right, we perform

42:41

this live on YouTube and the comments

42:43

are coming in. Mike says, what

42:45

is going on? Tina

42:50

says, how'd you get the

42:52

beans above the Frank? I know.

42:55

Don't even want to know. So,

42:57

OG started us off with 74

42:59

,319 people have zipper -related incidents. Both

43:01

Jesse and Sandy thought you were

43:03

way off, OG. What are you

43:05

thinking? No clue.

43:07

I hope it's way off. Jesse 30.

43:10

I know. I think we all do.

43:12

Jesse 3500. Sandy stole the downside. You

43:14

feeling good? Yeah, I'm feeling like

43:16

I'm in the ballpark, you know, the

43:18

ballpark. Oh, I see what

43:20

you do there. Sandy,

43:23

is Paula going to win this one?

43:26

I hope so. Every time I'm here, I've won

43:28

for Paula. So let's keep the streak going.

43:30

Here we go, Doug. Let's see if the streak

43:32

is alive. I wonder if I want to

43:34

win this one, though. I don't know. Or is

43:36

it Team Jesse getting closer to OG or

43:38

OG pulling away? Hey

43:43

there, Stackers. I'm Band -Aid lover

43:46

and guy who suddenly loves

43:48

button fly jeans, Joe's mom's neighbor,

43:50

Doug. Today, we're zipping up

43:52

our trivia with a question about

43:54

the zipper. Ironic, isn't

43:56

it? The zipper actually might not

43:58

be as old as you

44:01

think. It was created in 1913

44:03

as a separatable fastener by

44:05

a guy named Gideon Sundback. I

44:07

still thank him daily for his modern miracle

44:09

mostly because I've never had a zipper accident

44:12

and had to rush to the hospital. But

44:14

today's question is how many

44:16

people do have to go to

44:18

the hospital? for zipper -related incidences

44:21

in an average year. Well,

44:23

I'm not gonna give you the answer

44:25

right away, but I will tell you

44:27

that it was 72 ,319 less than

44:29

the Evil Empire OG. It

44:31

was 1 ,500 less than Jesse

44:33

and just 1 ,000 fewer than what

44:35

Sandy slash Paula guessed. Keeping

44:38

Sandy Streak alive, she has

44:40

won for Paula. The actual

44:42

answer is 2 ,000 people. Poor,

44:45

poor souls per year. Yes, but you guys

44:47

need more experience on zipping the zipper. No,

44:49

we don't. Paula definitely would have taken the

44:51

over. She definitely would have taken the over.

44:53

You did not do Paula well right there,

44:55

but congratulations on the win. I think I

44:57

had the edge because I've had to do

44:59

this and you guys haven't had to do

45:01

it. Oh, I will learn from your experience.

45:03

Kind of like we were doing with those

45:05

people blowing up their careers. I

45:08

don't want to any part in that. But

45:10

2000 is a much better number. I give

45:12

you hope for humanity. This doesn't happen that

45:14

much. So yeah.

45:16

All right. Let's get on with

45:18

something maybe a little. better.

45:20

We talked about the downsides because

45:22

those are salacious tales. Let's

45:24

talk about people who maybe made

45:26

their career with something that they did,

45:28

something pretty badass they did. Sandy,

45:30

let's stick with you. What's something you

45:32

saw where somebody really did something

45:34

pretty amazing that catapulted them career -wise?

45:36

I don't think you guys are going

45:38

to agree with me on this

45:40

one because it isn't an amazing thing

45:42

per se. It is a

45:44

personality trait. I think

45:46

people don't realize that the more likable

45:49

you are, the more

45:51

your chances of improving your career. What do

45:53

I mean by that? You don't have to

45:55

be the smartest in the room. You

45:57

do not have to know everything. You do not

45:59

have to be the person picking up all the

46:01

things. You have

46:03

a better chance of success if people

46:05

find you to be likable, okay?

46:09

if you're not the difficult person to work with,

46:11

if you've got the can -do attitude, if you

46:13

come in your array of sunshine, you

46:15

are smiling, they like working with you, you

46:18

stand a chance of having more

46:20

opportunities presented to you than if

46:22

you are just the hard worker

46:24

with your head down, because you're

46:26

not noticeable. And I know

46:28

that's not something that is gonna blow everybody's

46:30

minds or whatever, or something that you wanna

46:33

hear, you want something tangible, oh, study this,

46:35

do that, do this amazing thing, no. Be

46:37

that likable person that people love

46:39

working with. And I promise

46:41

you, your career stands a better

46:43

chance of improving better, faster than people

46:45

who are working hard at their

46:47

jobs. I'm glad you said that because

46:50

that's what we spent the whole

46:52

week doing. You know, I

46:54

was talking to Sandy specifically

46:56

about that. On Monday, we

46:58

let off with relationships matter. and

47:01

being in the right meetings and taking

47:03

part in groups that have nothing to do

47:05

with your job, being a cheerleader for

47:07

other people, all of those things,

47:09

LVP people. Oh, gee, you and I know

47:11

somebody like this, Chris. Chris was actually really

47:13

good at his job. But I thought, oh,

47:15

gee, when you and I worked with Chris

47:17

back in our American Express days, that what

47:19

you led with was he was he was

47:21

one of the most likable guys you could

47:23

possibly meet. Yeah. Good guy

47:25

to have in your corner. That's for sure. Yeah.

47:28

Always a cheerleader to OG.

47:30

Yeah. Absolutely. Problem solver. It didn't

47:32

have to be necessarily work

47:34

related. I felt like maybe he

47:36

was always like a connector, right? Like, oh, you

47:38

know what who's good at this is this

47:40

person. Let me, let me get you guys together

47:42

and see if that won't spark a conversation. And

47:44

this is actually, Chris is an

47:47

interesting case study because I remember hearing

47:49

from some more senior executives that

47:51

people above him in the corporate chain

47:53

kind of saw him as a

47:55

goofball. But a management

47:57

consultant, Tom Peters, said that true

47:59

leadership comes from the people that

48:01

are your employees your direct reports

48:03

they're the ones that will get

48:05

you promoted in a big way

48:07

and chris ended up getting some

48:09

fantastic promotions later on it was

48:11

mostly because. The people that work

48:13

for more always his biggest cheerleader because

48:16

he was always helping them so sandy i

48:18

think this guy chris is exactly. like

48:20

the model of avoiding clusters of misery,

48:22

Sandy, I think. Yes. You're being the

48:24

opposite of that, right? Yeah. That's exactly

48:26

what that is. And I've benefited from

48:29

that myself. I've had managers

48:31

who I worked with previously at

48:33

this current job that I have right

48:35

now. The manager literally picked up

48:37

the phone and said, I want you here with me

48:39

at this current place. Because we'd worked

48:41

together before. Didn't even do anybody else,

48:43

right? I know what you're capable of. I

48:45

know like your personality. I don't have

48:47

to worry about anything. It was

48:49

literally just commit the CFO and you're

48:51

in. And they even waited because that's working

48:53

on a major project and my former

48:55

employer was like, hey, I want to leave

48:57

with a nice bow here. Will you

49:00

guys wait four months for me to join?

49:02

Yes. No problem. No

49:04

questions asked. And that

49:06

will follow you. For other

49:08

people, as people go to other companies, your reputation

49:10

will follow you and that might lead to

49:12

other opportunities as well for you. I do remember

49:14

the, and I'm going to go right back

49:16

to the name I already said, Tom Peters. I

49:18

remember Tom Peters saying, if you spend

49:21

all of your time as a manager helping

49:23

your people with their resume so that

49:25

they can make more money, they can do

49:27

better work and they can leave the

49:29

company, those people will never leave or they

49:31

will try not to leave. And by

49:33

the way, if they do leave, they will

49:35

help you make connections between their new

49:37

company in your company because they want to

49:40

work with you. On the other side,

49:42

most managers, by every report I've ever seen,

49:44

spend a lot of time keeping their

49:46

direct reports down so that they look better

49:48

and those people want to leave immediately.

49:50

Nope. I learned from a manager, she ended

49:52

up being in the C -suite at BlackRock.

49:55

I remember her saying to me, I was her

49:57

executive assistant at the time I was in grad

49:59

school. She said to me, I hire people who

50:01

are smarter than I am. Why should I be

50:03

the smartest person in the room? These guys make

50:05

me look good. That's fabulous. I never forgot that,

50:08

right? You do have a lot of managers who

50:10

want to be like the smartest person in the

50:12

room. And the fact that she had

50:14

the opposite philosophy stuck with me for my 20s

50:16

to now. And I think that's really important that

50:18

you build your team. I love people who are

50:20

smarter than me. I don't want to be the

50:22

smartest person the room doing all the things. That's

50:24

what you guys are here for. It's such a

50:26

growth mentality and so, so, so cool. Jesse,

50:28

what's the time that you saw somebody

50:30

make their career? Yeah, two quick comments. The

50:32

phrase that you guys, I thought when

50:34

you guys were talking their servant leadership, is

50:37

that, are you guys really aware of that phrase?

50:39

But it really is like, my role as a manager

50:41

is to try to make sure that the people

50:43

who I'm managing that they are successful. And if there

50:45

are multiple layers of management involved, like let's say

50:47

I'm the senior manager and then they're all junior managers

50:49

to further people blow them, their job is to

50:51

make sure that the people below them are successful. And

50:53

there are a lot of really good organizations that

50:55

are kind of built on that idea. that

50:57

everybody's job is just to make sure that

50:59

the people who work for them, that they can

51:02

find success themselves. Just like you said, Joe,

51:04

it breeds great culture. But then there was another

51:06

idea I had. Let me see if it'll

51:08

come back to me. Oh, boy. It

51:10

might not. It might not. Oh, I

51:12

know what it was. Thank you, Sandy. Likeability.

51:14

Here's a cool thing I learned recently.

51:16

This isn't me and my own study. But

51:18

there was a really cool study done

51:20

on high schoolers. And it had to do

51:22

with popularity and likability. What

51:25

was the number one correlated

51:27

thing they found that makes people

51:29

likeable? Like, you know, what

51:31

was it? Was it being good looking? Was

51:33

it being athletic? Was it being funny? No.

51:37

The people who are the most likeable

51:39

are the people who like the

51:41

most other people. So, right? If

51:43

you're the kind of person who goes around and you

51:45

say like, oh, Joe. Joe's a great guy. I love

51:47

hanging out with Joe. Oh, Bobby, you know, he's kind

51:49

of quiet. Sometimes he's like kind of snaps at people,

51:51

but I like him. You know, I think he's a

51:53

sweet guy. If you're the kind of person who can

51:55

find a way to like other people, those

51:58

people will tend to like you back.

52:00

So if anyone out there is curious about

52:02

becoming more likable, it kind of just

52:04

has to do with you and your ability

52:06

to enjoy spending time and like other

52:08

people. I'm screwed. There's

52:12

a reason you work for yourself, OG. I

52:14

like you, OG. It's OK. But at

52:16

times, somebody made their career that you saw

52:19

somebody do something that was just brilliant. I

52:21

mean, that's a good one. Brilliancy. Like,

52:23

is it one act of brilliancy? Or

52:25

I mean, this is a boring answer.

52:27

But some of the people who I

52:29

feel like I've seen make the biggest

52:31

careers for themselves. There's this

52:34

consistency. There's this like

52:36

unwavering consistency. not

52:38

that you have to be, for example, a

52:40

workaholic, but one idea that does come to mind

52:42

is this guy who's like, his goal was,

52:44

everyone else was working nine to five and his

52:46

goal was to work six to six every

52:48

single day. And from the time we started together

52:50

as engineers as like 23 year olds to

52:52

the time I left the firm seven years later,

52:54

he was always in working six to six

52:56

every single day. And he didn't really rub it

52:58

in. It's just that he got way more

53:01

stuff done and he learned way more. And so

53:03

again, it's not that I'm trying to promote

53:05

this like workaholic culture, but it's that whatever you

53:07

choose to do, if you can show true

53:09

consistency over a long period of time, and

53:11

yeah, make sure that your managers are aware of

53:13

it, that becomes pretty hard to ignore. Oh

53:15

gee, how about for you? I

53:17

was just thinking about it, you know, in our

53:19

industry, I thought of a person

53:22

that stuck very closely to their personal

53:24

brand and just kind of repeated the

53:26

same thing over and over again. I

53:28

think a good example of that is

53:30

Morgan Housel. He's not

53:32

trying to be the next

53:34

stay trader. He's not trying

53:36

to figure out what the

53:38

next stock pick is that's going

53:40

to blow up, but just

53:42

repeatable, predictable, good, solid financial planning

53:44

advice over and over and

53:47

over again. And now everybody

53:49

knows the name. He was

53:51

a blogger for a long time and now

53:53

everybody has his books on their shelf who's

53:55

in the finance space and people who aren't

53:57

have obviously bought a lot of his

53:59

books. The very well respected person by just

54:01

saying like this is what I believe I'm

54:03

gonna say it very simply and I'm gonna

54:05

say it over and over and over

54:07

again And this is so there's no confusion

54:10

about who he is. You know, I mean

54:12

like you know what you're getting There's something

54:14

for that reliability and consistency as well. Yeah,

54:16

right? Yeah, I mean people can really

54:18

depend on you Yeah, and that's about like

54:20

all of a sudden some weird direction, you

54:22

know, he's not gonna be chasing Chinese penny

54:24

stocks all of a sudden or something

54:26

like that Well and Sandy also to your

54:28

point I love how it's the opposite of

54:30

what OG said in the first half, which

54:32

was the person who's like showing up as

54:35

somebody different every three weeks or every

54:37

month or every two months, you know, every

54:39

couple of years, that if they're consistently, I

54:41

am this person. Well, Jesse, it really goes

54:43

to yours too, right? About the guy

54:45

that shows up same time every day. Yeah.

54:47

Does the same thing. I remember

54:49

going back to the beginning of the year

54:51

and Alex Harmosi saying, be useful, you

54:53

know, the somebody who's useful and people want

54:55

to take the job to you because

54:58

you're useful. that person's getting promoted. I

55:00

saw a woman when I was at American Express

55:02

who created a job for herself. She

55:04

saw a need in the company. She

55:06

not only presented that need to

55:08

her bosses, she literally said, here's how

55:10

this role would look. Here's what

55:12

it would do. And I think I'm

55:14

the person who is uniquely created

55:16

to fill the role to the she

55:18

made such a great business case

55:20

using as we talked about on Monday

55:22

using data using data and showing

55:24

how we could have a bigger impact

55:26

on clients if this role existed.

55:28

She created a whole job for herself

55:30

and a great paying job and

55:32

like a whole new spot that American

55:34

Express wasn't paying attention to. It

55:36

was pretty badass to see at a

55:38

major company like American Express a

55:40

woman create out of the blue just

55:42

a brand new role that was

55:44

perfect for her. So what she did

55:46

though, Joe, was she found a

55:48

gap and created a solution and presented

55:50

it. I thought for sure you

55:53

were going to say zipped it up.

55:56

Missed opportunity, right? Yes.

56:00

Do you see that a lot though,

56:02

Sandy? It's harder to do it, I think

56:04

now than the never before. But

56:06

if you absolutely can, and not only just

56:08

finding the gap, but coming up with the

56:10

solution. is also very important, not

56:12

just waving the flag. But that's also

56:14

what people do, I think, when you have

56:16

people who are finding vulnerabilities and systems

56:18

and things like that in software, et cetera,

56:20

they find the gap and they suggest

56:23

the solution as well. And you're suddenly this

56:25

hero. So if you're looking for the

56:27

one big, you know, a big event, that

56:29

might be something that might be one

56:31

big event that can really catapult your career.

56:33

Like the takeaway, yeah. I

56:35

also have one more, and this was

56:37

during the interview. I went

56:39

to apply for, I was in college,

56:42

I went to apply to be a

56:44

disc jockey at this place called USA

56:46

Cafe. I played like 50s and 60s

56:48

music and served burgers and fries and

56:50

stuff and became a nightclub later on

56:52

in the evenings and they were hiring

56:54

new DJ. So I showed up and

56:56

there were maybe eight people there. The

56:59

hiring manager comes out and goes, he goes,

57:01

hey, totally optional, but does anybody want to like

57:03

dress up like Elvis right now and grab

57:05

this guitar? and just perform for this

57:07

little group of people. There were maybe

57:09

12 people in the, you know, it's, it's

57:12

11 o 'clock in the morning. So the

57:14

lunch crowd is just beginning to come

57:16

in and said, does anybody, you know, totally

57:18

optional. Does anyone dress up like Elvis

57:20

Presley and do this fake guitar riff right

57:22

now? And all of us, except two

57:24

people went, yeah, I'll pass. Yeah. I just

57:26

want to get to the interview. And

57:28

he goes, okay, those two people said they

57:30

do it. You're staying, you're hired and

57:33

everybody else is gone. And I was like,

57:35

think like the hiring manager. Think about

57:37

the other side of the table. And I

57:39

can't tell you the number of times

57:41

I've seen people that by thinking, by thinking

57:43

more like the person who's trying to

57:45

solve the problem at work that is not

57:47

your problem, but their problem and trying

57:49

to think more like them, you immediately make

57:51

huge, huge, huge waves. I did that

57:54

inadvertently once, Joe, without. Did you? Yeah. I

57:56

was living in London and didn't

57:58

have a job and a friend back

58:00

here in the States who was

58:02

pretty senior with Xerox got me an

58:04

interview in London selling copiers. I

58:06

mean, just, you know, grunt work, hitting

58:08

the pavement as entry level as

58:10

it got there. And they

58:12

set up the interviews back. They

58:14

were doing crazy stuff in the 80s

58:16

with interview, you know, crazy questions

58:18

and weird approaches. And they did good

58:20

cop, bad cop. And while The

58:23

good cop was asking a question. The bad cop

58:25

would interrupt and be a total jerk about it

58:27

and, you know, be really high pressure on me

58:29

and almost be mean to me. And it just

58:31

sucked. The whole thing sucked. And I decided, I

58:33

don't want to work here. This is not where

58:35

I want to work. So they get to the

58:38

very end. We get through it. And then they

58:40

broke character. And they go, okay,

58:42

well, we're glad that's over. You know, we

58:44

were just pressuring you a little bit to see how you

58:46

reacted. How'd you like that? And I went, I hated that. That

58:48

was awful. They offered me a

58:50

job. Cause they

58:52

just wanted somebody to be honest. I didn't, I found

58:54

out afterwards with a guy back here in the States

58:56

who kind of set the whole thing up was like,

58:58

they loved you because you were one of the few

59:00

people who said, you know, I'm like, well, great, but

59:02

I'm never working with them. So I don't want to

59:04

be part of that. You don't, you want to

59:06

play the game. Don't want to be Elvis in the

59:08

jumpsuit. Nope. Actually,

59:11

I would love to do that gig. You

59:13

totally would have loved that gig. Yeah. Absolutely.

59:16

Well, this gig, Speaking of gigs, that ends

59:18

this week. Thank you guys for helping

59:20

us round out our career branding week. I

59:22

think those cautionary tales and then some

59:24

of those great things people did to make

59:26

their careers a big help to a

59:28

lot of our stackers. Let's find out what's

59:30

happening where you are. Oh, gee, got

59:32

big plans this fine weekend. As

59:35

a matter of fact, yeah, today's a big

59:37

day for a third graders. Every year, the

59:39

third graders get to do this. They think

59:41

they're going on a field trip. And instead,

59:43

what they find out when they get at

59:45

the park is that they are on the

59:47

Oregon Trail. They get wagons and

59:49

they have to go through all the stuff that

59:51

they've learned about the Oregon Trail and they run

59:53

into, you know, bears and robbers and the sheriff

59:55

and, you know, all the stuff. And so all

59:57

the parents are, you know, in different. So does

1:00:00

one kid get dysentery? They

1:00:02

do have a lot of that stuff. I

1:00:04

mean, I don't really remember it that well

1:00:06

from the boys. But but anyways, so we're

1:00:08

doing that today. It's a big surprise for

1:00:10

the third graders, which is really fun. That's

1:00:12

awesome. then tomorrow is Alex's birthday. So he

1:00:14

is officially a man tomorrow, according to him.

1:00:16

That's fantastic. And I saw his Facebook post

1:00:18

about going to Texas A &M. Yep. So

1:00:20

we've gotten some pretty cool emails about that

1:00:22

too already. Somebody sent me a list of

1:00:24

steak restaurants. So that's pretty cool. That's fantastic. Speaking

1:00:27

of fantastic, we'll have our guest of

1:00:29

honor, a fantastic guest of honor go last,

1:00:32

but also fantastic, Jesse Kramer. What's

1:00:34

going on at Personal Finance for

1:00:36

long -term investors? Uh, we are

1:00:39

releasing an episode soon with, uh, Bill

1:00:41

Yount from catching up to five. And

1:00:43

then last week, I think we released

1:00:45

our sixth AMA episode, took some good

1:00:47

success with a, with an emergency tariff

1:00:49

episode in there too. So we've had

1:00:51

some fun episodes recently over on the

1:00:53

podcast. had to create some emergency tariffs. It

1:00:56

feels like it'll happen. It feels like

1:00:58

it putting a 10 % premium on

1:01:00

the cost of your podcast. Yeah. Well,

1:01:02

it was 145, so it is a

1:01:04

much better deal now at 10 tomorrow.

1:01:06

It's going to be 190. That if

1:01:08

you don't watch it, if you don't

1:01:11

watch it, it'll be 190. And that's

1:01:13

where people consume finer podcast, personal

1:01:15

finance for long term investors will link

1:01:17

to it in the show notes. Sandy

1:01:19

Smith, thank you so much for your

1:01:21

expertise today. And that was just the

1:01:23

tip of the iceberg of the stories

1:01:25

that you've you've seen. I remember one

1:01:28

about drug abuse that was kind of

1:01:30

only one disconcerting. Was

1:01:32

that the one who I put on a

1:01:34

one -way plane ticket or the one who threw

1:01:36

up in the boss's new apartment? Well,

1:01:38

actually, I know both of those, but

1:01:40

the one you put on the plane

1:01:42

ticket home because they were too busy

1:01:44

doing cocaine, I think, to actually attend

1:01:46

the company event. And trash the hotel

1:01:48

room? Yeah. I've

1:01:51

got some stories. Emily Guy

1:01:53

-Burkin says she should ghost -write my stories because

1:01:55

I've got so many up my sleeves, tales from

1:01:57

HR. Oh my good. Well,

1:01:59

she's the top person to partner

1:02:01

with if you're writing something. Yeah. Yes,

1:02:03

absolutely. Well, tell us about

1:02:05

the conference because people can now, I believe

1:02:07

this week, you're going to be opening it

1:02:09

up and people can sign up. Yeah, always

1:02:11

free and online, lining up some

1:02:14

speakers and things. So Elevate, again,

1:02:16

always is about intersectionality, always with

1:02:18

a focus on finance and money

1:02:20

and financial education and literacy. because

1:02:22

I feel like that is one of the

1:02:24

ways that people can change their entire lives. I've

1:02:27

always spoken many times about how mine has

1:02:29

been changed through financial literacy for sure. So

1:02:31

I want to continue to empower, specifically,

1:02:34

this year would be black women

1:02:36

with financial education and information that they

1:02:38

can utilize, which I think is

1:02:40

very timely. That's just the niche

1:02:42

that I'm focusing on this year. So

1:02:44

go to elevatethe92percent.com. You'll get more information

1:02:46

as speakers are announced, that you'll see who

1:02:49

the speakers are. always useful and timely

1:02:51

information that people can then apply to their

1:02:53

own lives. Because it's nice to speak

1:02:55

in theory, but you walk away with theory,

1:02:57

and if you have no action items,

1:02:59

then it doesn't make sense. Yeah, it's not

1:03:01

about what you know, it's about what

1:03:03

you do. Exactly. And putting it into place

1:03:05

right now. So Joe's known me for

1:03:07

a very, very long time. I

1:03:09

started out life minus 200 ,000 plus net

1:03:11

worth. Now it's seven figures on my

1:03:14

own. You can definitely change your life.

1:03:16

And I want to continue helping other

1:03:18

people change theirs as well. Not changing

1:03:20

just your life. The people around you's

1:03:22

life. Exactly. Yeah.

1:03:24

Not just intergenerational wealth, but community wealth

1:03:26

too, which is super important. And we'll link

1:03:28

to it on the show notes at

1:03:31

stackinbedgements.com. Yeah. And there are always more tales

1:03:33

from HR stories if you want to

1:03:35

see how employees behaving badly. Yeah,

1:03:37

I'm always... That's the name of your book,

1:03:39

Employees Behaving Badly. You know, from your lips

1:03:41

to God's ears, because there's lots of stories

1:03:43

out there, and I have to wait for

1:03:45

different NDAs to expire so I can share

1:03:47

more and more stuff. And

1:03:49

that's how you know you'll get continuing content

1:03:51

from Sandy Smith. Yes. All right,

1:03:53

that's going to do it for today. Thanks

1:03:55

to everybody hanging out with us on YouTube.

1:03:57

Normally, we're here later in the afternoon on

1:04:00

Wednesdays, about around 5pm Eastern time, or Jesse,

1:04:02

it's around 4pm Eastern time, usually, right? 4pm

1:04:04

Eastern. I almost got my time zones wrong.

1:04:06

You can reliably find us then if you

1:04:08

want to hang out and say hello, like

1:04:10

we've got several people hanging out with us

1:04:12

today. Thank you so much. Doug

1:04:14

ends our Friday show and our week by

1:04:16

informing us, what are the three things

1:04:18

that should be on our big to -do

1:04:21

list now? Well, Joe, first, if you're someone

1:04:23

who looks at your job like it's

1:04:25

a singles bar with better lighting, take some

1:04:27

advice from Jesse. What was that again,

1:04:29

Jesse? If you want to

1:04:31

be a leader, don't be a bleeder. I

1:04:34

have nothing to do. OK. Second,

1:04:37

Sandy said Michael Scott on the office

1:04:39

had the right idea by focusing all

1:04:41

his efforts on being likable. I

1:04:43

get it, right? Sandy, did I nail that? Zipped

1:04:46

it right up. Come on. What are

1:04:48

you guys? But the big

1:04:50

lesson? Geez.

1:05:01

Thanks to Sandy Smith for joining

1:05:03

us today. Check out her latest

1:05:05

project on Elevate the 92% dot

1:05:07

com. We'll also include links in

1:05:10

our show notes at stacking benjemons.com.

1:05:12

Thanks to Jesse Kramer for hanging

1:05:14

out with us today. You'll find

1:05:17

his amazing podcast, Personal Finance for

1:05:19

Long-Term Investors, wherever you listen to

1:05:22

finer podcasts with really long names.

1:05:24

And thanks also to O.G. for

1:05:26

joining us today, looking for good

1:05:29

financial planning help at the Sacking

1:05:31

Benjamin's dot com O.G. for

1:05:34

his calendar. This show is the

1:05:36

property of SB Podcasts LLC copyright

1:05:38

2025 and is created by Joe

1:05:40

Saul C. Joe gets help from

1:05:42

a few of our neighborhood friends.

1:05:44

You'll find out about our awesome

1:05:46

team at stacking benjemins.com along with

1:05:48

the show notes and how you

1:05:50

can find us on YouTube and

1:05:52

all the usual social media spots.

1:05:55

Come say hello. Oh yeah and

1:05:57

before I go not only should

1:05:59

you not take advice from Oh yeah, and before I go, not only should you not take

1:06:01

advice from these nerds, Don't take

1:06:03

advice from people you don't know.

1:06:05

This show is for entertainment purposes

1:06:07

only, before making any financial decisions,

1:06:09

speak with a real financial advisor.

1:06:12

I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug, and we'll

1:06:14

see you next time, back here

1:06:16

at the Stacking Benjamin Show. What

1:06:20

do you suppose they call that? A

1:06:23

novelty act? I don't know,

1:06:25

but it wasn't too bad. Well, that's a novelty.