0:04

This is episode 287

0:06

with 242 marathoner triathlete

0:09

former professor at the

0:11

Academy of Art in

0:14

San Francisco and now

0:16

the CEO of Key

0:18

Tone IQ Michael Brandt.

0:20

Welcome to the strength

0:23

running podcast. We surround

0:25

you with the same experts

0:27

as pro runners. So keep

0:30

listening to here coaches. physical

0:32

therapists, strength experts, dieticians, sports

0:34

psychologists, and other thought leaders

0:37

give you the best guidance

0:39

possible to take your running

0:41

to the next level. I'm

0:43

your host, Coach Jason Fitzgerald. I

0:46

ran cross-country, indoor and outdoor track

0:48

for Connecticut College. I one time

0:50

ran a 239 marathon PR and

0:52

won a warrior dash obstacle race.

0:55

And now I'm the head coach

0:57

of strength running and a monthly

0:59

columnist for Outside Magazine. You can

1:01

learn more about me and Strength

1:03

Running at Strength running.com. All right,

1:06

my friends, I'm feeling good these

1:08

days. I have actually been running

1:10

longer and with more substantial workouts

1:12

than I have in almost a

1:15

decade. It's a little bit of a

1:17

grind. I'm trying to do it at

1:19

41 compared to about 31. So I'm

1:21

trying to get myself back into some

1:23

type of running shape, but I'm excited

1:26

to see where this goes. and I'm

1:28

going to be registering for some races

1:30

soon to actually get some objective

1:32

feedback about where my fitness level is.

1:35

If you want to follow along, you

1:37

can check out the Strava link in

1:39

the description where you can see my

1:41

training or you can just search for

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4:47

My guest today is the driving force

4:50

behind ketone IQ. Michael Brandt is

4:52

their CEO and founder, and we're

4:54

going to talk about the applications

4:56

and background of ketones and how

4:58

they might be a game changer

5:00

in the field of fueling in

5:02

the coming years. Now it's still

5:04

early, and we don't know everything,

5:06

but I love exploring the frontiers

5:09

of performance and trying to figure

5:11

out where things might go in

5:13

five to ten years. especially

5:15

including something as interesting as

5:17

ketones, which have been referred

5:20

to as the fourth macronutrient.

5:22

Michael and I are going to

5:24

talk more about ketones as energy, why

5:27

you feel so focused after taking them,

5:29

the specific type of energy that

5:31

they give us, where he sees

5:33

the space in a decade and

5:35

a lot more. Without further delay,

5:37

please enjoy my conversation with Michael

5:39

Brandt. All right, here we go. Welcome

5:41

to the podcast. Jason, great to be

5:44

here, looking forward to a fun conversation.

5:46

Yeah, we are going to do a deep

5:49

dive on key tones and all of their

5:51

potential benefits for runners. And I really wanted

5:53

to start super simple, since this is something

5:55

that not every runner knows a lot about.

5:58

I think there's a lot of things. that

6:00

we need to learn about the

6:02

product and the space, so let's

6:04

start super simple. What is a

6:06

key tone? It's a great

6:08

question and it's really good timing

6:10

as well because the topic of

6:12

fueling is just huge right now

6:15

in endurance sports in general

6:17

and everything that we're

6:19

seeing with people loading

6:21

up on more carbs.

6:23

David Roche just won Leadville this year and

6:26

one of the, besides just being a

6:28

force of nature, one of the reasons he

6:30

ran is he just had an amazing fueling

6:33

strategy and we're seeing just huge

6:35

gains from people being mindful about

6:37

their fueling on top of everything

6:39

else, doing your LT runs,

6:41

doing your strength training, doing

6:43

your long runs, all that stuff,

6:46

but that nutrition, there's still

6:48

significant gains for everyone inside of

6:50

the space and myself as

6:52

a runner came in looking at

6:54

what was interesting, what

6:56

didn't already exist, what's a lever

6:58

that we could pull and your body,

7:00

when you're pushed to the limit, especially

7:02

in endurance sports, you make a

7:04

lot of something called ketones. Your body

7:07

turns fat into ketones, it's a

7:09

metabolite, it's a source of energy that

7:11

your cells use, especially your brain.

7:13

Your brain demands a lot of energy,

7:15

we have the highest size of brain

7:17

for any mammal relative to our

7:19

body size and we need fuel for

7:22

our brain when we're when we're

7:24

pushed to our limits. Our bodies

7:26

make a lot of ketones.

7:28

People have known that for 100

7:30

plus years and my insight, my

7:32

area of investigation into this space

7:34

was that, hey, your body makes this

7:37

really efficient, magical

7:39

molecule called ketones when you push your

7:41

limit. What if you went and drank

7:43

a ketone? What would happen? That

7:47

was the initial entrepreneur's

7:49

light bulb. I initially got going with

7:51

the Department of Defense Special Operations Command, got

7:53

a large contract there, did have done

7:55

a ton of research, continued to do a

7:57

lot of research with the U .S. military

7:59

on. high performance energy, different

8:02

advanced applications of ketones

8:04

and strenuous, cognitively strenuous,

8:07

physically strenuous contexts. And

8:10

basically ketones are high

8:12

performance energy, especially for your brains.

8:14

You especially feel just sharper. You

8:17

have better cognitive efficiency, better target

8:19

practice, accuracy, less likely to make

8:21

errors, whether you're running or on

8:24

a bike. You're just more mentally...

8:26

dial, you a better central governor

8:28

to do everything that you got to

8:30

do when you're when you're pushed to

8:33

your limits. So it's a fuel, it's

8:35

a different form of fuel than carbohydrates

8:37

or other things that you would eat to fuel

8:39

on a run. Yeah, I'm really interested in

8:42

all the different types of applications

8:44

that there might be for ketones

8:46

because I think we don't really

8:48

know as much as we should

8:50

about this space and I'm really

8:52

interested in learning more about it.

8:54

I'm particularly interested in the cognitive

8:56

benefits of ketones. So I have actually

8:58

been taking a shot of ketone

9:00

IQ before every single podcast recording

9:02

since 2023. So it's been probably

9:04

a little over a year and

9:06

a half. I actually have one

9:08

right now. I don't know if

9:10

you've got one in front of you,

9:12

but here we go. I'm going to

9:14

take a shot right now during the

9:17

podcast. I actually do really feel the

9:19

benefits cognitively from a ketone shot. So

9:21

here we go down the hatch. Yeah,

9:23

so your brain can only use,

9:25

your brain can only use certain

9:28

metabolites. You have a blood

9:30

brain barrier where the way that

9:32

blood gets into your brain, it's

9:35

a semi permeable layer that some

9:37

things can get through, but other

9:39

things cannot get through and body

9:41

fat, which is what your... body

9:43

mainly uses as its long-term pool

9:45

of energy cannot get through your

9:48

blood brain barrier. So whenever your

9:50

blood sugar, that's another major source

9:52

of fuel. You have your fat

9:54

and you have your blood sugar.

9:56

Whenever your blood sugar starts to

9:58

dip, your brain goes, holy shit,

10:00

I need fuel, I need fuel, so

10:03

your body starts turning fat into ketones

10:05

because you don't store that much blood

10:07

sugar, you know, all comes from carbohydrates,

10:09

that tank isn't that big. So once

10:11

that starts to dip, you're on a

10:13

long run, or you haven't eaten in

10:15

a little while, or just living your

10:18

everyday life, like that starts to dip,

10:20

your brain goes, holy shit, I

10:22

need fuel, so your body starts

10:24

turning fat into ketones, because ketones

10:27

do cross the blood brain barrier

10:29

and fuel your neurons. Once that

10:31

starts happening, the lights switch back

10:33

on, but it's a slow process.

10:36

And so the ability to directly

10:38

drink a ketone and then immediately,

10:40

within minutes, elevate your blood ketone

10:43

levels so that your brain is

10:45

able to use ketones for

10:47

metabolism for generating energy

10:49

to think clearly, think sharp,

10:52

think quick. Having ketones available

10:54

for that. that happens immediately once

10:56

you drink a ketone IQ and yeah

10:59

it's pretty special. It's like you would

11:01

only normally get your ketone levels up

11:03

like that you know hours into a

11:05

run or if you're fasting or if

11:07

you're just forcing your body you're eating

11:09

really low carbohydrate in general that you'll

11:12

force your body that's the ketogenic diet

11:14

you'll force your body to make a

11:16

lot of ketones. But yeah what we've

11:18

done it's special innovation where you're able

11:20

to supply your brain with this metabolite

11:22

that it functions really well on your

11:24

body makes naturally, we figure out a

11:26

way to supply it directly so you

11:29

can get a whole bunch of benefits

11:31

just from drinking it. Yeah,

11:33

it's great. I do feel, I think,

11:35

more quicker, you know, like I just

11:38

feel faster, quicker, a little bit more

11:40

dialed in for especially these kinds of

11:42

podcast conversations where, you know, I really

11:44

want to be present here and remember

11:46

all the things that you said so

11:48

I can follow up on things. One

11:50

of the things that you said that

11:52

I want to follow up on is

11:54

this idea of ketones is energy and

11:56

I'd love to differentiate between, you know,

11:58

the energy that we might... say comes from like

12:01

a plate of pasta or an energy bar.

12:03

You know, these are calories that our body

12:05

can break down to use as fuel for

12:07

work. As opposed to say the energy we

12:10

feel after drinking a cup of

12:12

coffee, which is a very different mechanism.

12:14

It sort of binds to the receptor

12:16

that tells you that you're tired and

12:18

so now all of a sudden your

12:20

brain doesn't think you're tired, even if

12:23

you physically might be a little fatigued.

12:25

So I'm just wondering like... How are

12:27

you defining energy when you say that

12:29

ketones can give you energy? That's a

12:31

great question. I guess really at the

12:34

heart of how our energy systems work.

12:36

At the end of the day, what

12:38

actually technically is energy is food that

12:40

has calories in it, that a calorie

12:42

is a unit of measurement of energy,

12:44

that if something has calories in

12:47

it that's stored energy, the chemical

12:49

bonds of the pasta that you're

12:51

eating has energy stored inside of

12:53

it. Caffeine, a caloricic. You said

12:55

it exactly right. It's binding to

12:57

your adenosine receptors, which is your

12:59

sleep hormone, and it's making your

13:02

body not feel as tight, but

13:04

it's actually not giving you any

13:06

additional energy. And so to feel

13:08

more energetic, in a way, both those

13:10

were, like caffeine makes you feel more

13:12

energetic, so a lot of people will

13:14

associate it with energy, energy drinks, energy

13:16

shots, a lot of that has caffeine.

13:19

But when we're talking about for a

13:21

runner for an athlete, it's more helpful

13:23

to use the more... technical, specific

13:25

sense of energy. And that's,

13:27

yeah, how many calories can

13:29

you eat? How many calories

13:31

can you process? How many

13:33

calories can you turn into

13:35

immediately usable energy? What's interesting

13:37

about, so to be clear,

13:39

ketones have calories in them.

13:41

Ketones are a caloric source of

13:44

actual energy. If you look at

13:46

the back of ketone IQ, it's

13:48

got 10 grams of ketones and

13:50

so it has 70 calories inside

13:52

of it. That's really interesting

13:54

because it's a type of calories

13:56

a quality of calories that

13:58

is different from carbohydrates.

14:01

You know, fat also has calories inside

14:03

of it. Your body needs

14:05

insulin to process it. Ketones

14:07

get processed without insulin. We

14:09

keep talking about the brain, your

14:11

neurons, really like ketones in particular

14:13

when you have ketones present. So

14:16

it's this source of energy that

14:18

the cells in your body can

14:21

use that's different from carbohydrates. You

14:23

know, fat also has calories inside

14:25

of it. Fat is its own

14:27

other macronutrient. source of calories separate

14:30

from ketones separate from carbohydrates.

14:32

Just to be clear here, there's really,

14:34

there's four macronutrients that

14:37

have calories. There's, you have carbohydrates,

14:39

you have fat, you have proteins,

14:41

you have proteins, protein has calories,

14:43

you have proteins, you can break

14:45

down, protein has calories, you can

14:47

break down, you can use that

14:49

as calories. And then ketones are

14:51

this fourth macronutrient. Like that's one

14:53

of the things that's gotten me

14:56

really excited about this. Ketones are

14:58

a source of calories that doesn't

15:00

fit into one of the typical

15:02

three buckets of fat, protein, and

15:05

carbohydrates. It's this own source of

15:07

calories. Your body makes ketones already.

15:09

So you have this source of

15:11

calories that are kind of floating

15:13

around in your system that are derived

15:15

from fat. But no one before had

15:17

ever made a calorie, a ketone-specific

15:20

energy shot that you could drink

15:22

and have that caloricic source of

15:24

energy from ketones. independent of the

15:26

way that your body makes it.

15:28

Yeah, I think it's super interesting.

15:30

Like I'm looking at the nutrition

15:33

facts right now. There's absolutely no

15:35

carbohydrate, fat, or protein, yet it has

15:37

70 calories. And so it's really interesting,

15:40

like, okay, where are these calories coming

15:42

from? And it's almost like this fourth

15:45

macronutrient. I think one

15:47

of the things that I'm

15:49

particularly interested in about a

15:51

potential application of ketones is

15:53

you know, the window for

15:55

post-exercise recovery. A lot of

15:58

folks are using key. in

16:00

that way. You mentioned David Roche.

16:02

This is one of the ways

16:04

that he takes key tones. Pretty

16:06

sure there's a Tour de France

16:08

team that is taking key tone

16:10

shots after their rides. And this

16:12

was the team that won the

16:14

2022 and 2023 Tour de France.

16:17

So it's not like a team

16:19

that needs to improve. They're doing

16:21

quite well. What did the studies

16:23

say in regards to recovery and

16:25

some of the things that we

16:27

can expect if we start, you

16:29

know, maybe taking a shot after

16:31

a workout or a long run

16:33

or one of those more substantial

16:36

runs? That's a great question, Jason,

16:38

and you're right. We work with

16:40

Team Vizma Lisa Bike. They've won

16:42

two of the last three tours

16:44

to France. They came in, and

16:46

the other one, they came in

16:48

second, yeah, best of the best.

16:50

in elite cycling. We like working

16:52

with cyclists because runners are great,

16:55

cyclists are great. What's interesting about

16:57

cyclists is that uniquely compared to

16:59

runners, they just have that computer,

17:01

they have that wattage output, like

17:03

you just know your foot is

17:05

connected to the pedal, you know

17:07

exactly your wattage output, and so

17:09

when something moves the needle, you

17:11

know, 10, 15 percent, it registers

17:14

really quick, a runner, you'll pick

17:16

it up to, runners. You'll also

17:18

notice it, but it's the immediacy

17:20

that the technical accuracy of what

17:22

that cycling computer has made cycling

17:24

in particular a really interesting area

17:26

where you know our very very

17:28

first elite athletes were actually pro

17:30

tour cyclists. It's your question on

17:33

recovery. Yeah, recovery is a really

17:35

interesting area. When you think about

17:37

recovery, like what happens after a

17:39

workout? It takes a tremendous amount

17:41

of energy to recover. that your

17:43

body is always doing metabolism. It's

17:45

like you're always breathing. You're always

17:47

creating energy from the food that

17:49

you've eaten, from the storage that

17:51

you have on deck, and you're

17:54

doing stuff with it. Recovery takes

17:56

a serious amount of work. We

17:58

look at the processes inside. recovery,

18:00

you are, if you work, do a hard workout,

18:02

you've ripped up a bunch of your

18:04

muscles, you have all these microterres in

18:06

your muscles, you're repairing those, you're going

18:09

to have stronger muscles out the other

18:11

side of it, but that takes energy

18:13

to repair those muscles, you

18:16

have angiogenesis, you're creating new blood

18:18

vessels throughout your muscles to be able

18:20

to better deliver oxygen and nutrients to

18:22

your muscles, that basically a good workout

18:25

is like the start of it. you

18:27

need a lot of energy for your

18:29

workout, but then after your workout, your

18:31

body's doing all these processes to repair

18:34

and rebuild, to get the benefit of that

18:36

workout, but that that requires further energy.

18:38

And what we've seen is that ketones

18:40

in particular, again, is a source of

18:42

energy and a unique source of energy,

18:44

that they help the energy needs of

18:47

a recovering body in a unique way.

18:49

So we see an acceleration of a

18:51

few things. We see an acceleration in

18:53

muscle... protein rebuilding after exercise. We

18:55

see an acceleration in one of

18:58

the big things that happens in recovery

19:00

is that basically all your muscles,

19:02

your muscles store carbohydrates

19:04

inside of them as glycogen

19:07

and those tanks empty out

19:09

when you exercise. Your muscles

19:11

are contracting and that's spending

19:13

that glycogen to do metabolism

19:15

to exercise the muscle. those are empty

19:17

to refill those, glycogen re-uptake, that

19:19

itself takes energy, is like you're

19:22

filling the gas tank, that takes

19:24

energy, ketones accelerate the rate of

19:26

muscle, glycogen, re-uptake. What we've seen

19:29

just net, if you just like

19:31

zoom out, like there's a few

19:34

of these mechanisms of action where,

19:36

okay, it helps with protein, resynthesis,

19:38

it helps with glycogen reoptic, you zoom

19:41

out from it, we did a study

19:43

where... We had riders take ketones for

19:45

weeks, for three weeks, several

19:47

times a day, and at the end

19:49

of that study, the riders that took

19:51

ketones versus placebo, they were both, they

19:54

both had the same workouts, the same

19:56

diet, aside from the ketones, ad libetum,

19:58

able to eat as much. as they

20:00

wanted of anything else. The

20:02

ketone group did significantly better,

20:04

15% better on the final

20:06

time trial, that basically all

20:08

these little mechanisms of

20:11

action on the way that your body spends

20:13

energy to recover, net, net of all

20:15

of that, is that at the end

20:17

of doing it for several weeks, that

20:20

we saw 15% better power output in

20:22

the final time trial. So it's

20:24

very exciting. It's that like, and

20:26

it gets, we're. This gets more

20:28

advanced in the sense that, you know,

20:30

I think your audience appreciates

20:33

that it's not just like, okay, I

20:35

take this one time and I'm going

20:37

to run really well, that there's

20:39

this like longer time window of

20:41

how the things that you eat affect

20:43

your overall performance over a longer

20:45

time horizon than just like, I

20:48

want to run faster today, let

20:50

me eat something today. It's like,

20:52

well, the way you exercise in

20:54

what you ate. a month ago, a

20:56

year ago even, is building you

20:58

to the person that you are

21:00

today and at a certain level,

21:03

like advanced amateur on

21:05

up level, that we care

21:07

about that stuff. We care

21:09

about how do we become

21:11

the best possible athlete and

21:13

nutrition is a big part of

21:15

it. Ketones are part of it

21:18

as well in conjunction

21:20

with everything else out there.

21:22

Yeah, you know, running is such a

21:24

cumulative sport that, you know, I

21:26

always like to say from a

21:28

training perspective, what you've done six

21:31

months ago, prepared you to do

21:33

what you did three months ago,

21:35

which is all influencing your capabilities

21:37

today. So if you can make

21:39

your recovery a small amount of

21:41

just more efficiency added to that

21:44

recovery, so that, you know, you're

21:46

uptaking glycogen faster, you're

21:48

restarting that muscle protein synthesis

21:50

process a little bit sooner

21:52

or a little bit more

21:54

efficiently. It does seem to

21:56

me that the cumulative effect

21:58

of that over say, an entire

22:00

training cycle could lead to some pretty

22:03

substantial gains. I think that's one of

22:05

the more interesting areas that I'm on

22:07

the lookout for. We've also seen ketones

22:09

help with EPO production. It helps to

22:11

stimulate your body's natural production of EPO.

22:13

And EPO is what your red blood

22:16

cells use to transport oxygen around. So

22:18

you're able to oxygenate better, which has

22:20

direct... impact on performance. It's interesting you

22:22

said cumulative sport because yeah I ran

22:24

3,000 miles last year and some of

22:27

my friends are like oh wow that's

22:29

impressive like I mean what's actually impressive

22:31

is the like five years prior to

22:33

that of like you know building up

22:35

to a spot like it didn't feel

22:38

hardly I actually didn't even know I

22:40

was on track to 3,000 until at

22:42

some point in the middle of the

22:44

year I was like oh wow I

22:46

probably hit that goal like the hard

22:49

part was the cumulative years before then

22:51

I don't think I think it'd be

22:53

very hard to go from zero to

22:55

oh I'm gonna run 3,000 miles but

22:57

the year before that I ran like

23:00

2,600 miles year before that I ran

23:02

a couple you know 2,000 miles like

23:04

the the cumulative nature of the sport

23:06

I think hit the nail on the

23:08

head. Yeah zero to 1,000 miles might

23:11

be the hardest jump ever but two

23:13

to three is much more manageable if

23:15

you can get there for sure. Oh,

23:17

that's so interesting. I always say that,

23:19

like, I always say that to friends

23:22

that I feel, I'm curious what you

23:24

think, I always say like that like

23:26

20, yeah, 20 miles a week, there's

23:28

something there that like, you kind of

23:30

become a runner, like, because you're either

23:33

doing like four, five mile runs or

23:35

five, four mile runs, or like, you're

23:37

running a pretty serious amount. And I

23:39

feel like if you can get to

23:41

20, I don't know if you have

23:44

a kind of level of level of

23:46

where someone kind of where someone kind

23:48

of I feel like if you can

23:50

get to 20 without your body breaking

23:52

and if you can do that for,

23:54

you know, say a year, get your

23:57

20 times 52, get your, there's your

23:59

thousand miles. That is probably the

24:01

hardest because if you can do

24:03

that if you can do 20 you can

24:05

probably do 25 you can probably do

24:08

30 you can probably do 40 right like

24:10

but we're like in order to get to

24:12

20 over a compounding basis like if

24:14

you have some weirdness in your stride

24:17

or some asymmetry or Your arches are

24:19

weak or whatever like that you're

24:21

probably gonna break before you get to

24:23

20 but if you get to 20

24:25

and you hold it without breaking you

24:28

can probably get to 30 40 70.

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25:53

Yeah, there is something special that

25:55

I think happens at certain

25:57

mileage levels in terms of

25:59

consistency. and how you feel and

26:01

your performances, you know, you're, look,

26:03

you're a runner, no matter how

26:05

little or how much you run,

26:07

but from a performance perspective, yeah,

26:09

I think you're gonna start to

26:11

feel a lot better around 20

26:13

miles a week, but you're also

26:15

gonna start to feel really good

26:18

around 40. to 50 miles a

26:20

week. That's where you can really

26:22

start seeing some just amazing performance

26:24

benefits. I'd love to talk a

26:26

little bit more about EPO, which

26:28

you just brought up. You know,

26:30

this is often thought of as

26:32

you know, a performance enhancing drug,

26:34

so many athletes have gotten caught

26:36

taking exogenous EPO. But if we

26:38

can enhance our body's natural ability

26:40

to produce EPO, that's the kind

26:42

of EPO that I would love

26:44

to have more of in my

26:46

body. You know, people do all

26:48

the time to increase their EPO.

26:50

is altitude training. Yeah, here I

26:52

am in Denver. I'm swimming in

26:54

EPO right now as we speak.

26:56

Yeah, yeah, that's the oldest trick

26:58

in the book for increasing your

27:01

EPO, that when you go

27:03

to altitude, there is less oxygen

27:05

in the air and then

27:07

your body compensates. And one of

27:09

the things that it does to

27:12

compensates is you create more EPO.

27:14

You're absolutely right that

27:16

doping EPO, directly injecting

27:19

EPO, forbidden, you cannot do

27:21

that, but there's, I mean, training

27:23

in general increases your EPO, training

27:26

at altitude increases your EPO, that

27:28

if there's natural things that you

27:30

can do, I mean, having certain

27:32

diet, like, they're putting ketones

27:34

aside, there's certain diets that can

27:37

increase your EPO. So there's, I think,

27:39

importance of like, how you get there

27:41

and the degree that you get there,

27:43

and that, yeah, there's natural ways that

27:46

you can, you know, improve your

27:48

physiology. sport, like isn't that, yeah,

27:50

if you eat more protein, you're gonna

27:52

grow bigger muscles. If you eat

27:54

more carbohydrate, you'll be able to

27:56

perform better. That, and if you, caffeine,

27:59

you're gonna be. more sharp as well,

28:01

like that the things that we

28:03

eat can have a effect on

28:05

our physiology and that if you

28:08

naturally improve some output, if you

28:10

can get better EPO through your

28:12

diet supplementation, that I mean, it's

28:15

fundamentally good for the sport. You

28:17

have better performing healthier athletes out

28:19

there and I think it's just

28:21

is better for everyone. Right. I

28:24

used to try to get nine

28:26

hours of sleep every night because

28:28

I wanted to maximize my body's

28:31

ability to produce testosterone and human

28:33

growth hormone. So I've definitely been

28:35

on the natural way to kickstart

28:37

some beneficial hormone train for quite

28:40

a while. Yeah. What is what

28:42

is the mechanism? And How are

28:44

ketones impacting EPO production? Is it

28:46

something where you need to take

28:49

them every day? You need to

28:51

take them after hard sessions. Is

28:53

this a benefit that might only

28:56

be contained to a ketone Esther

28:58

rather than a different form of

29:00

ketones? Like, do you know more

29:02

about that? There's a couple of

29:05

hypothesis. I'm trying to think how

29:07

to... like de-complexified that basically, ketones

29:09

don't require as much oxygen to

29:11

turn into cellular energy that the

29:14

currency of cellular energy is ATP.

29:16

If people remember their high school

29:18

ninth grade biology, mitochondria are the

29:21

power plant of the cell. When

29:23

we talk about these different macronutrants

29:25

that contain calories, your mitochondria all

29:27

day is turning those into ATP.

29:30

ATP is the real cellular currency.

29:32

energy currency of your cells. And

29:34

ketones turn into ATP using less

29:36

oxygen. That's one of the reasons

29:39

that they're really interesting is that

29:41

they're just more efficient at driving

29:43

energy in your cells and especially

29:46

in your brain cells. And so

29:48

one of the. tricks

29:50

that happens is

29:52

when you drink

29:55

ketones and you

29:57

have them regularly

29:59

and you have

30:01

them after hard

30:04

sessions is that

30:06

basically it tricks

30:09

your body into believing

30:11

that you're in a like

30:13

low altitude environment and then

30:15

like you end

30:17

up compensating for that and

30:19

you get this training effect

30:21

where you create more EPO because

30:23

you're basically your body thinks because

30:25

there's more ketones and it doesn't

30:27

need as much oxygen it thinks

30:29

that there is less oxygen and

30:31

then makes EPO to compensate. Oh

30:34

man, this is one of those

30:36

things where I would love to have

30:38

a wealthy benefactor just donate like

30:40

a billion dollars so that we can

30:42

start like 100 studies and really

30:44

get to the bottom of this because

30:46

I feel like this is one

30:48

of the frontiers in running right now

30:51

is studying this compound this macronutrient

30:53

however you want to technically define it

30:55

and really figure out the mechanisms

30:57

the pathways and how this is giving

30:59

us some of the benefits that

31:01

it is. I mean that's what we

31:03

do all day that yeah that that

31:05

with an EPO we see you

31:08

know the shift towards the shift towards ketones

31:10

reduces your overall oxygen demand tricks your

31:12

body into thinking that you need more red

31:14

blood cells and then that stimulates EPO

31:16

production that and there's more to investigate inside

31:18

of that that's a big part of

31:20

what we do all day I on our

31:23

team we have a full -time research lead

31:25

that I don't know to find

31:27

me find me five other

31:30

sports nutrition companies that have

31:32

a you know oxford phd

31:34

on their team that's full

31:37

time we submitted for six

31:40

million dollars of

31:42

grants last year for different

31:44

applications ketones really interesting in

31:46

a lot of different

31:48

areas cut from you know from

31:51

cognitive health to physical performance to

31:53

you know things like you

31:55

know certain types of cancer are

31:57

are starved when

31:59

you When you take away carbohydrates

32:01

and you only fuel with ketones that

32:03

start certain types of cancer. There's a

32:05

lot of interesting application areas of ketones

32:07

and that's an important part of what

32:09

we do all day. It's funny to say

32:11

that, Jason, just like, yeah, I wish

32:13

I had a billion dollars too. We're

32:15

doing what we can to continue increasing

32:17

the body of knowledge around it. I think

32:19

a lot about how a lot of

32:22

what we take for granted today, like electrolytes,

32:24

someone invented that. My book right here,

32:26

first and thirst, how

32:28

Gatorade turned the science of sweat

32:30

into a cultural phenomenon that in the

32:32

1960s, with the Florida Gators, you

32:34

had these scientists that were like, hey,

32:37

you know, I think that there's

32:39

something else inside of sweat than just

32:41

water. And what if we gave

32:43

people this type of formula and the

32:45

first electrolytes, they tasted crazy and

32:47

there was a bunch of research and

32:49

people are still researching electrolytes, but

32:51

it was decades of basic science before

32:53

people really understood the right types

32:56

of balance, the right types of electrolyte

32:58

to really replenish and it's exciting.

33:00

It's a fun place to be. I

33:02

think that for better, for worse,

33:04

as an entrepreneur, I wanted to do

33:06

something very fresh tracks in the

33:08

snow where we like get to, slash

33:10

have to do a lot of

33:13

new science around what we're doing. Like,

33:15

you know, I could go, we

33:17

could go and launch a protein powder

33:19

and, you know, protein is pretty

33:21

like established science. Could I make something

33:23

yummier and cool, work with a

33:25

cool athlete sponsor here or there? Sure,

33:27

I like, and not knocking on

33:30

anyone who's doing that. But that, like

33:32

my choice is an entrepreneur. I

33:34

want to do something very inventive and,

33:36

and be at that cutting edge

33:38

where, yeah, we're discovering a lot of

33:40

things that key tones can do.

33:42

A big part of what we do

33:44

is just research, try to get,

33:47

you know, government funds, National Institute of

33:49

Health funds, try to find other,

33:51

you know, research groups that are interested

33:53

in these areas for, you know,

33:55

for cognitive decline, Alzheimer's, other neurodegenerative diseases,

33:57

key tones really interesting in the

33:59

brain. It's, you know, offshoot from running in

34:01

sports science, but like it's

34:04

the same fundamentals of ketones

34:06

helpful for metabolism that

34:08

that we're just always applying

34:11

for different pools of money

34:13

doing new research and figuring

34:15

out different application areas for

34:17

ketones. Very very exciting. Like

34:19

I think I think ketones

34:22

are going to be as big as

34:24

protein powder or caffeine. I think it's

34:26

just a new primitive in the

34:28

overall pantheon of ingredients that

34:30

exist out in the world and we're

34:33

still super duper early and I love

34:35

sports I'm an athlete and I I think a

34:37

lot of what makes it really obvious

34:39

that it works is when you're

34:41

pushing yourself to your limits physically

34:43

but it's the same way that

34:45

if you invented caffeine if caffeine

34:47

didn't exist like you'd probably first

34:49

go test it with runners and they would

34:51

you would say hey people run better when

34:53

they have a little bit of caffeine

34:56

in their system but Now, you know,

34:58

a billion cups of coffee or drink

35:00

every day. Like, it's this broader, like,

35:02

everyone's doing metabolism all the time. Energy

35:05

is the most important problem to solve

35:07

for humanity because if you can help

35:09

people with better energy, you can help

35:11

them do all the other things in their

35:13

lives. And so I think it was,

35:15

we're like, we're this like sports nutrition

35:17

brand that's wrapped in this much larger

35:19

brand of just energy science for humanity.

35:22

And I think about our role as

35:24

a sports nutrition brand. the broader

35:26

energy science problem of humanity where athletes

35:28

are really dialed in we think about

35:30

our fueling strategy we think about how

35:32

to not bonk we think about all

35:35

these things think about the training adaptation

35:37

that we're getting from a certain type

35:39

of exercise and and that's our test

35:41

kitchen for you know if it's working

35:43

for these elite athletes then that's great

35:45

that's this great proof point that hey

35:47

like ketones can also be helpful you know

35:50

take it before a important meeting take it

35:52

when you just need to jam on some

35:54

emails get your inbox down to zero As

35:56

I see, I see it as, you

35:58

know, sports. nutrition

36:00

company wrapped in a much larger

36:02

mission. I think one of the

36:05

reasons why, two reasons why that

36:07

I'm particularly interested in this is

36:09

because number one, it is this

36:11

really fun frontier that we don't

36:14

know as much about that we

36:16

do protein, carbohydrate. caffeine, some of

36:18

the other things that we take for

36:20

recovery performance that have been around for

36:23

a really long time. Now, of course,

36:25

ketones have been around for forever, you

36:27

know, as long as we have, they're

36:29

in our body and produced naturally, but

36:32

taking them exogenously is sort of the

36:34

new frontier and figuring out all the

36:36

applications is sort of the second reason

36:39

why. I think it's really interesting. And

36:41

the fact that... you're doing all this

36:43

research, you're getting grants to do research

36:45

in a whole bunch of different ways,

36:47

you know, for the military, for Alzheimer's

36:50

applications, and then of course for the

36:52

athletic applications that we care about a

36:54

little bit more on this show, I

36:56

think we're going to learn more about

36:58

this in the next, you know, five

37:00

to ten years, and that to me

37:02

is just super exciting, because I don't

37:04

know where it's going to go, but

37:07

I'm waiting with bated breath. Where do

37:09

you see things going in the next

37:11

five to 10 years? You know, if

37:13

you had a crystal ball, you

37:15

know, of anyone I could probably

37:18

ask, you're the one probably with

37:20

the best crystal ball. So I'm

37:22

curious to hear what you

37:25

think. You know, where is our

37:27

relationship with key tones in 10 years?

37:29

Right now, we are using key tones

37:31

for racing, for recovering

37:34

from hard workouts, for

37:36

these applications in.

37:38

specific sports types of contexts

37:40

where things go in 10

37:42

years is that we're seeing

37:45

that ketones help with cognitive

37:47

decline that if you have

37:49

neurodegenerative disorders

37:51

ALS Alzheimer's

37:53

that those oftentimes are

37:56

due to hypo metabolism

37:58

in your brain. Basically, your brain

38:01

is not doing enough metabolism. Your

38:03

brain cells are not getting enough

38:05

energy, and that creates this negative

38:07

feedback loop where you're building

38:09

up gunk plaque. You're

38:11

building up gunk in your

38:13

brain that further prevents

38:15

energy from reaching your

38:17

neurons that exacerbates

38:19

this vicious cycle. And

38:21

ketones are able to slice

38:24

through that and able to

38:26

recover brain energy in certain neurodegenerative

38:28

cases. And so where I see

38:30

things going in 10 years is

38:32

that we look back on sports

38:34

nutrition and people having ketones to

38:36

raise and recover. It's like, I

38:38

mean, that will be bigger in

38:41

10 years than it is today. But

38:43

I think the overall market, the

38:45

overall, you know, just set of

38:47

people that we can help, set of

38:49

people whose lives that we can

38:51

be making bigger, that's gonna grow like

38:53

much, much faster and bigger that

38:55

it will be a 75 -year -old

38:57

who is not a runner who's

39:00

taking it to just feel sharper

39:02

and go out their day -to

39:04

-day lives that we're gonna see

39:06

a much broader set of people drinking

39:09

ketones for

39:11

everything in life.

39:13

And using protein as an

39:15

example, right? Like protein powder,

39:18

protein supplements really got started with the

39:20

bodybuilder community in the 80s, 90s, like

39:22

let's bulk up, let's do it. Now,

39:24

I don't have the exact numbers in

39:26

my fingertips, but you have a lot

39:28

of people that just have protein because

39:30

you gotta have the right ratio of

39:32

protein in your diet to maintain muscle mass,

39:34

just to be like a healthy everyday

39:36

person because as you age, you lose muscle

39:38

mass. So there's a lot of people

39:40

that are trying to get their gram of

39:42

protein per kilogram of body weight on

39:45

a daily basis who aren't bodybuilders or who

39:47

aren't serious athletes. It's just, you know, my

39:49

dad, my uncle, people that we

39:51

know that are just the

39:54

protein part of how our body is

39:56

built and we're just eating it on

39:58

a, right? You have a lot of. people just

40:00

having it on a regular

40:03

basis is a fundamental macronutrine.

40:05

So when I think about how ketone

40:07

space evolves in the next decade it's

40:09

that yes we continue to build with

40:12

great athletes but that we get this

40:14

much larger build out of everyday people

40:16

who want the subjective benefits or

40:19

you know for different medical

40:21

reasons they're they're taking ketones

40:23

to improve outcomes. I really like

40:25

that analogy of the body building

40:28

community and protein because it does

40:30

seem like a very analogous, you

40:32

know, when protein was first started

40:34

being used as a supplement, not

40:36

just, you know, going to eat a

40:39

cheeseburger or something like that. It was

40:41

just thought of as this thing that

40:43

only those huge guys in the gym

40:45

who are trying to weigh 300 pounds

40:48

and just be absolutely massive took. If

40:50

you took protein, that you were one

40:52

of those body building guys. And we've

40:55

now learned that there are. you know

40:57

almost countless applications for protein and I

40:59

think it's you know it's kind of

41:02

funny to me that now so many

41:04

endurance runners are supplementing with protein

41:06

because they want to recover faster

41:08

not because they want bigger muscles

41:11

but because they want to repair

41:13

the muscles that they've damaged during

41:15

a long run or a workout

41:17

and so as a lot of

41:19

these products evolve over time We

41:22

just develop a lot more nuance

41:24

with how we use the product

41:26

and who it might benefit and

41:28

who it might not benefit, but

41:30

like protein, I see greater applications

41:33

in the future and I

41:35

really hope that we learn

41:37

even more about its athletic.

41:40

applications when it comes to recovery

41:42

and the cognitive side of things. Let me

41:44

ask you one more follow-up to the cognitive

41:46

side of things before we wrap today Michael.

41:48

You know I asked you about EPO and

41:51

some of the reasons why ketones can

41:53

boost your natural production of EPO

41:55

and it seems like it's almost

41:57

tricking your body into thinking it's

41:59

at altitude. What is happening in

42:01

my brain right now? Because I feel

42:03

super alert, you know, I took

42:05

that ketone shot maybe about 30, 35

42:07

minutes ago on the show. What

42:09

is the mechanism in my brain right

42:11

now that's making me feel almost

42:14

like I had a cup of coffee,

42:16

but you know, I'm not gonna have any

42:18

of the jitters later. I've been doing this

42:20

for a while. I know that I just

42:22

sort of start feeling normal. I don't have

42:24

a crash and there's no risk of me

42:26

like not being able to go to sleep

42:28

tonight. Yeah, that basically, as soon as you

42:31

drink a ketone, that you start

42:33

having elevated ketone

42:35

levels in your blood and

42:37

those cross the blood -brain

42:39

barrier and become a primary energy

42:41

source. So instead

42:43

of relying on glucose,

42:46

which is your blood sugar

42:48

comes from carbohydrates, all

42:50

the same thing, that your

42:52

brain starts also using

42:54

ketones and it has a more

42:57

efficient energy yield. Like you

42:59

get more ATP per oxygen molecule.

43:01

We talked about that before.

43:03

Ketones just, they turn into usable

43:05

cellular energy with less oxygen, which

43:08

by the way, so you're more likely

43:10

to notice it when you are under some

43:12

kind of stress. When you, if

43:14

you're training hard or you're at

43:16

altitude or you're just working really

43:19

hard that when you have less oxygen

43:21

available, when you're doing more work, then

43:23

ketones especially are gonna shine

43:25

and then you end up

43:28

with more mental clarity, less brain

43:30

fog, enhanced focus,

43:32

it's great. And you now

43:34

have one that has 100

43:36

milligrams of caffeine in it, which,

43:39

oh my goodness, this is

43:41

like the one -two punch

43:43

that I particularly love before

43:45

a podcast episode. Today was the

43:47

uncaffeinated version. Do you guys

43:49

have plans for a ketone

43:51

shot that has caffeine and

43:53

10 milligrams of ketones? Cause

43:55

I believe the caffeinated shot

43:57

only has five. Yeah, yeah. have,

44:00

you called it that. So

44:02

we have our no

44:04

caffeine ketone only 10 grams of ketones.

44:06

And then we have a caffeine and

44:08

ketones. And your

44:11

question is, yeah, are we okay? So

44:13

when we made the caffeine and

44:15

ketone line, we

44:17

added caffeine and we actually minused out

44:20

a little bit of the ketones because

44:22

we just didn't want to like blow

44:24

people's socks off that basically when you

44:26

combine ketones and socks blown off. I

44:28

know I do too. So yeah, that's

44:30

a request that we get that basically

44:32

this one is really meant as a

44:34

better version of five hour

44:36

energy that that we sell a

44:39

lot in just like every day,

44:41

you know, grocery stores, convenience stores,

44:43

grab and go like that a

44:45

lot of people want an energy shot

44:47

and they have a certain set of expectations around

44:49

an energy shot, especially that it has caffeine and

44:51

then it like feels a certain way. And so

44:53

we wanted to make something that meets that

44:55

user that customer where

44:57

they're at. And so we made a

44:59

caffeinated one. And then yeah, the

45:01

idea is that 100 milligrams of caffeine

45:03

plus five grams of ketones together give

45:05

you this like overall really nice feel of

45:07

what you'd expect from an energy shot. It's

45:09

like meeting meeting people where they're at like,

45:12

if you expect an energy shot to be

45:14

a certain way, we're delivering that and then

45:16

better. And then we

45:18

have our pure play pure ketone shot for,

45:20

you know, people that want to be decaf

45:22

or people that are, you know, more of

45:24

your serious athletes are more into that because more

45:26

into the pure ketone one, because they're just

45:28

like stacking a lot of they're having several

45:30

shots on a run, they're they're really like

45:32

going on it and they don't always want as

45:34

much caffeine. Yeah,

45:37

we keep playing around with the different dials.

45:39

Okay, what flavor with what caffeine load

45:41

with what ketone load, like what's the what's

45:43

the magic formula side. I appreciate the

45:45

push that like, make basically like extra strength

45:47

one that has like all of the

45:49

ketones and all of the caffeine in it

45:52

is definitely on the roadmap for us. We're

45:54

always, you know, always

45:56

trying to anticipate

45:58

people's needs. I What else

46:00

can I say there? Like we want

46:02

to, if there was one magic product

46:05

that everyone loved for every use case,

46:07

that would be, that would make my

46:09

job really easy. We're always figuring out,

46:12

like, okay, what's the, like, next, most

46:14

obvious need, where we're solving a

46:16

lot of problems for a lot

46:18

of people, and, you know, there's

46:20

a good business case behind it,

46:22

and, yeah, I appreciate the idea,

46:24

and just, like, like, yeah, Max,

46:26

like, a max load of a max

46:28

load of caffeine, Testing day in the

46:30

lab for you guys is probably a

46:33

really fun day and I'm sure you

46:35

guys are super dialed in all day

46:37

on testing day. Yes, yeah, I mean

46:40

we have a full-time Formulator

46:42

just always tinkering on stuff. We're

46:44

doing a lot of a lot

46:46

of fun concepts in in

46:48

the lab. Let me ask you

46:51

a ridiculous question. Yeah, please. Is

46:53

there an unsafe? dosage of ketones

46:55

like, okay, there's 10 milligrams in

46:58

each one of these non caffeinated

47:00

shots. What if I took 10

47:02

of them all in one serving

47:05

and just funneled 10 ketone IQ

47:07

shots? Yeah. What's going to

47:09

happen to me? So there's

47:11

10 grams in one serving.

47:14

I mean, what I'm supposed to say

47:16

is don't have more than three in

47:18

a day, three and a half is

47:20

so we're supposed to say. If you

47:22

had more than that. you would probably

47:25

just feel really energetic. I've personally had

47:27

more than that in a day. I

47:29

mean, I often do actually. Especially if

47:31

I'm running, especially if I'm just going

47:33

hard. You're burning it off as you're

47:35

drinking it. If you had 10 in

47:37

a day, you'd feel probably like

47:40

really energetic. It would get to a point

47:42

where like if you had too much sugar,

47:44

like ever just had too much candy. Yeah,

47:46

I guess I just feel kind of unsettled

47:49

and a little manic and then I feel

47:51

depressed later. Yeah, you kind of got to

47:53

feel like I want to like punch

47:55

a hole through the wall, go run 10 miles,

47:57

that you just feel like you have too

47:59

much. energy like okay if you drink 10

48:01

of these that's okay it's 700 calories

48:04

of high-performance energy from

48:06

ketones like you probably wouldn't

48:08

be hungry for much else and

48:10

you'd probably like want to go do

48:12

something and yeah I wouldn't recommend

48:14

I would say you know have a couple shots say how

48:17

you feel re-up if you want to like dial

48:19

it from there it's you know look it's low

48:21

side-effect profile like I'd be more

48:23

worried about someone having 10 times much

48:26

10 times too much caffeine. If you have

48:28

10 times too much caffeine you might have

48:30

a heart attack. Like that's a more serious,

48:32

you know, drug, so to speak. If

48:34

you have 10 times too much ketone

48:36

IQ, like you're gonna have a, you

48:38

might not feel awesome, but you'll probably

48:41

be okay. And at the day, like

48:43

everything in moderation, like have it, get

48:45

comfortable with it. There is such

48:47

a thing as too much of a good

48:49

thing, you can die from drinking too much water,

48:51

like. figure out how you feel with like

48:53

one or two shots, key turn IQ, and

48:56

then modulate from there is what I would say

48:58

to anyone asking about having 10 shots

49:00

at once. Good advice. Thanks for

49:02

entertaining my silly question there. Well,

49:04

Michael, thank you so much for

49:06

your time today. I really look

49:08

forward to. following the space, I

49:10

really do take a shot before

49:12

almost every single podcast episode and

49:14

I plan to continue that in

49:16

the future because of how it

49:18

makes me feel and also for

49:20

those recovery benefits as well. Is

49:22

there anything else that you wanted

49:24

to add to the discussion that

49:27

I might have missed about applications,

49:29

how folks can expect to feel, where

49:31

you see the space in five to

49:33

10 years, anything like that? One of

49:35

the other exciting areas is on

49:37

concussions and... TBI, traumatic brain injury,

49:40

you see a lot of

49:42

that in NFL and boxing and

49:44

MMA and in the arm services

49:46

that basically any time you're

49:49

getting like knocks, bings, booms

49:51

around your head, that that's

49:54

a neurodegenerative

49:56

context where when you have

49:58

a concussion, you're interfering with

50:00

your brain's ability to do metabolism. Ketones

50:02

is potentially really helpful there. That's the

50:04

area we didn't really touch on, but

50:07

this is really interesting to me. We

50:09

have a large contract that we just

50:11

kicked off with the Navy Health Research

50:13

Center to look at, ketones for TBI.

50:15

People have looked at a lot of

50:17

different other, you know, what happens when

50:20

you go on a ketogenic diet. We've

50:22

seen really promising results for concussions and

50:24

TBBI. So it stands to reason that

50:26

like drinking a ketone supplement will help

50:28

there. that one of the other areas

50:30

I'm really excited about that we didn't

50:33

touch on is basically I see a

50:35

world in five years from now where

50:37

every NFL player is having key to

50:39

an IQ before and after every game

50:41

and if they happen to have a

50:43

concussion they're having double dose that that

50:46

would be and I'm not even talking

50:48

about like a way to make money

50:50

not money like I think that would

50:52

just literally be good for the sport

50:54

that the same way you have like

50:57

guardian caps or rule changes in the

50:59

NFL to keep players safe. Like you

51:01

want, you don't want your star quarterback

51:03

going down with a concussion. Like even

51:05

if it's the quarterback on the other

51:07

team, right? I think most sane people

51:10

can agree that like healthy players, like

51:12

let's keep it all healthy, let's keep

51:14

it all like, you know, within the

51:16

field of play. And then yeah, let's,

51:18

I hope my team wins, but like

51:20

you don't want to see people getting

51:23

like life threatening. brain injuries on just

51:25

for playing a game of football. So

51:27

this area I'm really excited about. What

51:29

else is it to plug? You know,

51:31

check us out. We're nationwide in vitamin

51:33

shop. You can find us on our

51:36

website ketone.com. Other places as well, a

51:38

lot of gyms, a lot of other

51:40

other places. And if you never tried

51:42

it before, and you see us in

51:44

a store, you can always scan the

51:46

QR code. And we have a first

51:49

shot free promo. You scan the QR

51:51

code on any. shot and your first

51:53

one will be free, give it a

51:55

try, and yeah, tag us, say hello,

51:57

we're on social media at Keaton IQ.

51:59

and love hearing from people. Very

52:01

cool. Well, thank you, Michael, for the

52:04

time. I appreciate it. Thanks, Jason. This

52:06

was a lot of fun. What an episode.

52:08

Thank you so much for listening and

52:10

being part of our community here. If

52:12

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52:14

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52:17

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